Re: [VoiceOps] Call Quality
On 2021-06-16 16:42, Jared Geiger wrote: Does Ribbon/Sonus charge extra for it even in passthrough modes On my Ribbon C15s, there is no extra charge/license for G722. However, we do need to pay licenses for SIP trunks in general, which is by far the largest barrier towards modernizing our phone network. We already have TDM hardware for the needed capacity. We also have IP hardware for the needed capacity. But, since those SIP trunk licenses (RTUs) from Ribbon are fairly expensive, it can be hard to convince manglement why we need them. If a call has to cross a T1 in my network, then it negotiates to only G711. Manglement doesn't seem to have any interest in HD calling, at least not that they have expressed to me. ___ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps@voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
Re: [VoiceOps] Call Quality
I've seen an increase in G722 calls and I've seen a few AMR-WB calls get through too for our International vendors. Its still relatively new for them outside of the IPX/VoLTE market. I've had a large PTT ask to help with end to end testing for AMR-WB with them. A handful of International vendors are supporting G722 with us but still only Inteliquent for domestic. Does Ribbon/Sonus charge extra for it even in passthrough modes preventing the rest of the domestic carriers from using it? Rural Call Completion is definitely still a big quality issue. One way audio, foreign country ringback tone, and PDD followed by a 503 is what we test and try to mitigate before customers notice. The race to the bottom pricing has drawbacks. There are several CLECs that I won't put their "Gold" , "highest level" deck in route because its still garbage. Occasionally we will see dropped calls due to incorrectly configured SIP timers. I'm curious to see what happens with quality KPIs when more end destinations start validating/rejecting SHAKEN/STIR calls. Will we get higher PDD because carriers don't deploy their certs in a CDN and someone DDOSes the certificate host? Will end destination carriers finally start rejected the grey route International traffic with nothing or C level attestations? On Wed, Jun 16, 2021 at 1:07 PM Mike Johnston wrote: > On 2021-06-14 12:07, Richard Jobson wrote: > > before going to the PSTN which is clamped at G.711 narrowband > > This is starting to get a *little* bit better, but progress is painfully > slow. For example, Inteliquent supports G722, you just need to ask for it > to be enabled on your SIP trunks with them. They won't transcode, just > allow the negotiation to pass through. Within my telco we enable G722 > wherever possible and encourage SIP PBX subscribers to also support it all > the way through to their phones. We now have hundreds of endpoints that > will negotiate G722 over the PSTN via Inteliquent. > ___ > VoiceOps mailing list > VoiceOps@voiceops.org > https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops > ___ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps@voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
Re: [VoiceOps] Call Quality
On 2021-06-14 12:07, Richard Jobson wrote: before going to the PSTN which is clamped at G.711 narrowband This is starting to get a /little/ bit better, but progress is painfully slow. For example, Inteliquent supports G722, you just need to ask for it to be enabled on your SIP trunks with them. They won't transcode, just allow the negotiation to pass through. Within my telco we enable G722 wherever possible and encourage SIP PBX subscribers to also support it all the way through to their phones. We now have hundreds of endpoints that will negotiate G722 over the PSTN via Inteliquent. ___ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps@voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
Re: [VoiceOps] Call Quality
I most often see this happen to avoid complaints about calls terminating to cloud IP addresses or IP addresses outside the USA. Calvin Ellison Systems Architect calvin.elli...@voxox.com +1 (213) 285-0555 <http://voxox.com> <https://www.facebook.com/VOXOX/> <https://www.instagram.com/voxoxofficial/> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/3573541/admin/> <https://twitter.com/Voxox> The information contained herein is confidential and privileged information or work product intended only for the individual or entity to whom it is addressed. Any unauthorized use, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify me immediately. On Wed, Jun 16, 2021 at 5:38 AM Mike Hammett wrote: > "Then there's the popularity of anchoring media to mask downstream > providers" > > I configure all of my sessions to not re-invite, but I do so because most > of the VoIP providers only run mediocre IP networks. I build my IP networks > to ensure good performance to both my providers and my customers. I can't > ensure that anyone else has built their network the same. > > Others do so to mask which carriers they use? That seems awfully immature. > On inbound, it's a simple LRN lookup. On outbound, okay, that is a lot > harder to figure out. It still doesn't make any sense. > > > > - > Mike Hammett > Intelligent Computing Solutions > http://www.ics-il.com > > > > Midwest Internet Exchange > http://www.midwest-ix.com > > > > -- > *From: *"Calvin Ellison" > *To: *"Mike Hammett" > *Cc: *"VoiceOps" > *Sent: *Tuesday, June 15, 2021 5:28:15 PM > *Subject: *Re: [VoiceOps] Call Quality > > VoIP termination still has the same 20th-century PSTN problems with > low-cost/quality carriers worming their way into wholesale LCRs. Then > there's the popularity of anchoring media to mask downstream providers, and > the SIP/RTP trapezoid becomes a hairball of jitter, latency, and possible > dead air from packet TTL hitting zero. > > If your clients want you to do something about the robocalls they are > getting, there are many caller reputation services out there who can help. > TransNexus/ClearIP is fairly turnkey, or you can get data directly from > people like YouMail, Hiya, and First Orion to do your own analytics. > > Is RingCentral really paying the IP transit to duplicate their media > streams just in case of some problem, or is it more likely they have > multiple peers and use standard tricks like BGP and path monitoring to drop > routes as needed? > > > > Calvin Ellison > > Systems Architect > > calvin.elli...@voxox.com > > +1 (213) 285-0555 > > <http://voxox.com> > > <https://www.facebook.com/VOXOX/> > <https://www.instagram.com/voxoxofficial/> > <https://www.linkedin.com/company/3573541/admin/> > <https://twitter.com/Voxox> > > The information contained herein is confidential and privileged > information or work product intended only for the individual or entity to > whom it is addressed. Any unauthorized use, distribution, or copying of > this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this > communication in error, please notify me immediately. > > > On Mon, Jun 14, 2021 at 9:16 AM Mike Hammett wrote: > >> I should add that my initial intent was the voice ecosystem, aside from >> the end-users. For those, usually it's one of the things we all already >> know. >> >> Why would carrier A have "good quality", while carrier B didn't? >> >> >> I had a conversation with a customer about quality being more important >> than price. A lot of things come to mind right away (such as diversity, >> latency, jitter, packet loss, etc.), but I'm looking for what I don't know. >> >> >> >> o >> >> >> Are there just that many poorly ran companies where the low-hanging fruit >> I'm brushing aside is where almost all of the problems occur? >> >> >> >> - >> Mike Hammett >> Intelligent Computing Solutions >> http://www.ics-il.com >> >> >> >> Midwest Internet Exchange >> http://www.midwest-ix.com >> >> >> >> -- >> *From: *"Mike Hammett" >> *To: *"VoiceOps" >> *Sent: *Sunday, June 13, 2021 1:11:30 PM >> *Subject: *[VoiceOps] Call Quality >> >> I've heard a variety of complaints and concerns over the years about call >> quality. How are the
Re: [VoiceOps] Call Quality
"Then there's the popularity of anchoring media to mask downstream providers" I configure all of my sessions to not re-invite, but I do so because most of the VoIP providers only run mediocre IP networks. I build my IP networks to ensure good performance to both my providers and my customers. I can't ensure that anyone else has built their network the same. Others do so to mask which carriers they use? That seems awfully immature. On inbound, it's a simple LRN lookup. On outbound, okay, that is a lot harder to figure out. It still doesn't make any sense. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com Midwest Internet Exchange http://www.midwest-ix.com - Original Message - From: "Calvin Ellison" To: "Mike Hammett" Cc: "VoiceOps" Sent: Tuesday, June 15, 2021 5:28:15 PM Subject: Re: [VoiceOps] Call Quality VoIP termination still has the same 20th-century PSTN problems with low-cost/quality carriers worming their way into wholesale LCRs. Then there's the popularity of anchoring media to mask downstream providers, and the SIP/RTP trapezoid becomes a hairball of jitter, latency, and possible dead air from packet TTL hitting zero. If your clients want you to do something about the robocalls they are getting, there are many caller reputation services out there who can help. TransNexus/ClearIP is fairly turnkey, or you can get data directly from people like YouMail, Hiya, and First Orion to do your own analytics. Is RingCentral really paying the IP transit to duplicate their media streams just in case of some problem, or is it more likely they have multiple peers and use standard tricks like BGP and path monitoring to drop routes as needed? Calvin Ellison Systems Architect calvin.elli...@voxox.com +1 (213) 285-0555 The information contained herein is confidential and privileged information or work product intended only for the individual or entity to whom it is addressed. Any unauthorized use, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify me immediately. On Mon, Jun 14, 2021 at 9:16 AM Mike Hammett < voice...@ics-il.net > wrote: I should add that my initial intent was the voice ecosystem, aside from the end-users. For those, usually it's one of the things we all already know. Why would carrier A have "good quality", while carrier B didn't? I had a conversation with a customer about quality being more important than price. A lot of things come to mind right away (such as diversity, latency, jitter, packet loss, etc.), but I'm looking for what I don't know. o Are there just that many poorly ran companies where the low-hanging fruit I'm brushing aside is where almost all of the problems occur? - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com Midwest Internet Exchange http://www.midwest-ix.com From: "Mike Hammett" < voice...@ics-il.net > To: "VoiceOps" < voiceops@voiceops.org > Sent: Sunday, June 13, 2021 1:11:30 PM Subject: [VoiceOps] Call Quality I've heard a variety of complaints and concerns over the years about call quality. How are these quality issues introduced? As long as pipes and equipment aren't overloaded, where is a quality issue to come from? Obviously, the closer you are to the handsets, the less opportunity there is for issues. What else is there to take into account? - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com Midwest Internet Exchange http://www.midwest-ix.com ___ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps@voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops ___ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps@voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops ___ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps@voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
Re: [VoiceOps] Call Quality
VoIP termination still has the same 20th-century PSTN problems with low-cost/quality carriers worming their way into wholesale LCRs. Then there's the popularity of anchoring media to mask downstream providers, and the SIP/RTP trapezoid becomes a hairball of jitter, latency, and possible dead air from packet TTL hitting zero. If your clients want you to do something about the robocalls they are getting, there are many caller reputation services out there who can help. TransNexus/ClearIP is fairly turnkey, or you can get data directly from people like YouMail, Hiya, and First Orion to do your own analytics. Is RingCentral really paying the IP transit to duplicate their media streams just in case of some problem, or is it more likely they have multiple peers and use standard tricks like BGP and path monitoring to drop routes as needed? Calvin Ellison Systems Architect calvin.elli...@voxox.com +1 (213) 285-0555 <http://voxox.com> <https://www.facebook.com/VOXOX/> <https://www.instagram.com/voxoxofficial/> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/3573541/admin/> <https://twitter.com/Voxox> The information contained herein is confidential and privileged information or work product intended only for the individual or entity to whom it is addressed. Any unauthorized use, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify me immediately. On Mon, Jun 14, 2021 at 9:16 AM Mike Hammett wrote: > I should add that my initial intent was the voice ecosystem, aside from > the end-users. For those, usually it's one of the things we all already > know. > > Why would carrier A have "good quality", while carrier B didn't? > > > I had a conversation with a customer about quality being more important > than price. A lot of things come to mind right away (such as diversity, > latency, jitter, packet loss, etc.), but I'm looking for what I don't know. > > > > o > > > Are there just that many poorly ran companies where the low-hanging fruit > I'm brushing aside is where almost all of the problems occur? > > > > - > Mike Hammett > Intelligent Computing Solutions > http://www.ics-il.com > > > > Midwest Internet Exchange > http://www.midwest-ix.com > > > > -- > *From: *"Mike Hammett" > *To: *"VoiceOps" > *Sent: *Sunday, June 13, 2021 1:11:30 PM > *Subject: *[VoiceOps] Call Quality > > I've heard a variety of complaints and concerns over the years about call > quality. How are these quality issues introduced? As long as pipes and > equipment aren't overloaded, where is a quality issue to come from? > > > Obviously, the closer you are to the handsets, the less opportunity there > is for issues. What else is there to take into account? > > > > - > Mike Hammett > Intelligent Computing Solutions > http://www.ics-il.com > > > > Midwest Internet Exchange > http://www.midwest-ix.com > > > > > ___ > VoiceOps mailing list > VoiceOps@voiceops.org > https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops > > ___ > VoiceOps mailing list > VoiceOps@voiceops.org > https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops > ___ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps@voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
Re: [VoiceOps] Call Quality
I can attest to them being non-zero as I have handled multiple of these tickets myself! I don't believe they do it through arrogance or malice though - just plain ignorance. > On 15/06/2021, at 9:46 AM, Mike Hammett wrote: > > God, I hope customers don't hold their carriers responsible for inappropriate > use of speakerphones. > > > Yes, I'm sure the complaints received for the above are non-null. That's how > much faith I have in customers. > > > > - > Mike Hammett > Intelligent Computing Solutions > http://www.ics-il.com > > > > Midwest Internet Exchange > http://www.midwest-ix.com > > > > From: "Tim Bray via VoiceOps" > To: voiceops@voiceops.org > Sent: Monday, June 14, 2021 4:36:55 PM > Subject: Re: [VoiceOps] Call Quality > > On 14/06/2021 22:25, Mike Hammett wrote: > > One of the concerns I heard was echo. On a purely digital call, what > > would be the cause of echo? > > Echo, as in hearing yourself coming back with a delay? > > Sound flying from the speaker to the microphone at the far end. Dodgy > speaker phone, poor plastic design of the phone, DSP not doing echo > cancellation. Or too much end to end latency - if it is quick enough, > you don't notice. Could be loads of things. > > > > > Quite often with third party USB or bluetooth `speaker phones` > > > > -- > Tim Bray > Huddersfield, GB > t...@kooky.org > > ___ > VoiceOps mailing list > VoiceOps@voiceops.org > https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops > > ___ > VoiceOps mailing list > VoiceOps@voiceops.org > https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops ___ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps@voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
Re: [VoiceOps] Call Quality
That’s nice. However, a simple headset with a boom mounted microphone is a vast improvement over a typical situation. Even a cheap one from Koss. https://www.zipdx.info/product-review-koss-cs300-usb-headset/ We have a special service for use by conference interpreters like those who work for the UN. We have to occasionally review headsets to verify reliable, full-duplex performance. There are some USB audio interface chips that degrade microphone performance while in the presence of incoming sound. It’s a faulty echo cancellation scheme implemented in silicon. Michael Graves mgra...@mstvp.com<mailto:mgra...@mstvp.com> o: (713) 861-4005 c: (713) 201-1262 sip:mgra...@mjg.onsip.com From: Mike Hammett Sent: Monday, June 14, 2021 5:05 PM To: mgraves mstvp.com Cc: voiceops@voiceops.org; Tim Bray Subject: Re: Call Quality *nods* When in the home office, I use my podcasting setup (headphones, dedicated mic, ran through some software to clean up a bit more.) - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com Midwest Internet Exchange http://www.midwest-ix.com From: "mgraves mstvp.com" mailto:mgra...@mstvp.com>> To: "Mike Hammett" mailto:voice...@ics-il.net>>, "Tim Bray" mailto:t...@kooky.org>> Cc: voiceops@voiceops.org<mailto:voiceops@voiceops.org> Sent: Monday, June 14, 2021 4:53:27 PM Subject: RE: Call Quality Working for a conferencing company, we hear all about this. You’d think that acoustic echo cancellation was settled science, and you’d be wrong. There are so many bad quality speakerphones and conference phones. Further, so many software engineers (yes, you Google!) think they have some special insight. Their stuff is just as bad as others. Worse because it can be variable. Bottom line is, if you must hear and be heard well…when it really matters….use a headset. Michael Graves mgra...@mstvp.com<mailto:mgra...@mstvp.com> o: (713) 861-4005 c: (713) 201-1262 sip:mgra...@mjg.onsip.com From: VoiceOps mailto:voiceops-boun...@voiceops.org>> On Behalf Of Mike Hammett Sent: Monday, June 14, 2021 4:46 PM To: Tim Bray mailto:t...@kooky.org>> Cc: voiceops@voiceops.org<mailto:voiceops@voiceops.org> Subject: Re: [VoiceOps] Call Quality God, I hope customers don't hold their carriers responsible for inappropriate use of speakerphones. Yes, I'm sure the complaints received for the above are non-null. That's how much faith I have in customers. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com Midwest Internet Exchange http://www.midwest-ix.com From: "Tim Bray via VoiceOps" mailto:voiceops@voiceops.org>> To: voiceops@voiceops.org<mailto:voiceops@voiceops.org> Sent: Monday, June 14, 2021 4:36:55 PM Subject: Re: [VoiceOps] Call Quality On 14/06/2021 22:25, Mike Hammett wrote: > One of the concerns I heard was echo. On a purely digital call, what > would be the cause of echo? Echo, as in hearing yourself coming back with a delay? Sound flying from the speaker to the microphone at the far end. Dodgy speaker phone, poor plastic design of the phone, DSP not doing echo cancellation. Or too much end to end latency - if it is quick enough, you don't notice. Could be loads of things. Quite often with third party USB or bluetooth `speaker phones` -- Tim Bray Huddersfield, GB t...@kooky.org<mailto:t...@kooky.org> ___ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps@voiceops.org<mailto:VoiceOps@voiceops.org> https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops ___ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps@voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
Re: [VoiceOps] Call Quality
*nods* When in the home office, I use my podcasting setup (headphones, dedicated mic, ran through some software to clean up a bit more.) - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com Midwest Internet Exchange http://www.midwest-ix.com - Original Message - From: "mgraves mstvp.com" To: "Mike Hammett" , "Tim Bray" Cc: voiceops@voiceops.org Sent: Monday, June 14, 2021 4:53:27 PM Subject: RE: Call Quality Working for a conferencing company, we hear all about this. You’d think that acoustic echo cancellation was settled science, and you’d be wrong. There are so many bad quality speakerphones and conference phones. Further, so many software engineers (yes, you Google!) think they have some special insight. Their stuff is just as bad as others. Worse because it can be variable. Bottom line is, if you must hear and be heard well…when it really matters….use a headset. Michael Graves mgra...@mstvp.com o: (713) 861-4005 c: (713) 201-1262 sip:mgra...@mjg.onsip.com From: VoiceOps On Behalf Of Mike Hammett Sent: Monday, June 14, 2021 4:46 PM To: Tim Bray Cc: voiceops@voiceops.org Subject: Re: [VoiceOps] Call Quality God, I hope customers don't hold their carriers responsible for inappropriate use of speakerphones. Yes, I'm sure the complaints received for the above are non-null. That's how much faith I have in customers. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com Midwest Internet Exchange http://www.midwest-ix.com - Original Message - From: "Tim Bray via VoiceOps" < voiceops@voiceops.org > To: voiceops@voiceops.org Sent: Monday, June 14, 2021 4:36:55 PM Subject: Re: [VoiceOps] Call Quality On 14/06/2021 22:25, Mike Hammett wrote: > One of the concerns I heard was echo. On a purely digital call, what > would be the cause of echo? Echo, as in hearing yourself coming back with a delay? Sound flying from the speaker to the microphone at the far end. Dodgy speaker phone, poor plastic design of the phone, DSP not doing echo cancellation. Or too much end to end latency - if it is quick enough, you don't notice. Could be loads of things. Quite often with third party USB or bluetooth `speaker phones` -- Tim Bray Huddersfield, GB t...@kooky.org ___ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps@voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops ___ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps@voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
Re: [VoiceOps] Call Quality
Working for a conferencing company, we hear all about this. You’d think that acoustic echo cancellation was settled science, and you’d be wrong. There are so many bad quality speakerphones and conference phones. Further, so many software engineers (yes, you Google!) think they have some special insight. Their stuff is just as bad as others. Worse because it can be variable. Bottom line is, if you must hear and be heard well…when it really matters….use a headset. Michael Graves mgra...@mstvp.com<mailto:mgra...@mstvp.com> o: (713) 861-4005 c: (713) 201-1262 sip:mgra...@mjg.onsip.com From: VoiceOps On Behalf Of Mike Hammett Sent: Monday, June 14, 2021 4:46 PM To: Tim Bray Cc: voiceops@voiceops.org Subject: Re: [VoiceOps] Call Quality God, I hope customers don't hold their carriers responsible for inappropriate use of speakerphones. Yes, I'm sure the complaints received for the above are non-null. That's how much faith I have in customers. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com Midwest Internet Exchange http://www.midwest-ix.com From: "Tim Bray via VoiceOps" mailto:voiceops@voiceops.org>> To: voiceops@voiceops.org<mailto:voiceops@voiceops.org> Sent: Monday, June 14, 2021 4:36:55 PM Subject: Re: [VoiceOps] Call Quality On 14/06/2021 22:25, Mike Hammett wrote: > One of the concerns I heard was echo. On a purely digital call, what > would be the cause of echo? Echo, as in hearing yourself coming back with a delay? Sound flying from the speaker to the microphone at the far end. Dodgy speaker phone, poor plastic design of the phone, DSP not doing echo cancellation. Or too much end to end latency - if it is quick enough, you don't notice. Could be loads of things. Quite often with third party USB or bluetooth `speaker phones` -- Tim Bray Huddersfield, GB t...@kooky.org<mailto:t...@kooky.org> ___ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps@voiceops.org<mailto:VoiceOps@voiceops.org> https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops ___ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps@voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
Re: [VoiceOps] Call Quality
Oh, they absolutely do TRY to. And junk equipment. Last week a site-level manager for a customer tried to tell us we were responsible for and needed to do something about the 15-20 robocalls per day they were getting. My first answer was, wait, ONLY 15-20?? (Number is SEO and so easily scraped.) On Mon, Jun 14, 2021 at 2:49 PM Mike Hammett wrote: > God, I hope customers don't hold their carriers responsible for > inappropriate use of speakerphones. > > > Yes, I'm sure the complaints received for the above are non-null. That's > how much faith I have in customers. > > > > - > Mike Hammett > Intelligent Computing Solutions > http://www.ics-il.com > > > > Midwest Internet Exchange > http://www.midwest-ix.com > > > > -- > *From: *"Tim Bray via VoiceOps" > *To: *voiceops@voiceops.org > *Sent: *Monday, June 14, 2021 4:36:55 PM > *Subject: *Re: [VoiceOps] Call Quality > > On 14/06/2021 22:25, Mike Hammett wrote: > > One of the concerns I heard was echo. On a purely digital call, what > > would be the cause of echo? > > Echo, as in hearing yourself coming back with a delay? > > Sound flying from the speaker to the microphone at the far end. Dodgy > speaker phone, poor plastic design of the phone, DSP not doing echo > cancellation. Or too much end to end latency - if it is quick enough, > you don't notice. Could be loads of things. > > > > > Quite often with third party USB or bluetooth `speaker phones` > > > > -- > Tim Bray > Huddersfield, GB > t...@kooky.org > > ___ > VoiceOps mailing list > VoiceOps@voiceops.org > https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops > > ___ > VoiceOps mailing list > VoiceOps@voiceops.org > https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops > ___ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps@voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
Re: [VoiceOps] Call Quality
It's not an issue other than what others said; junk analog gear and/or people doing dumb things. Another one I found was call center people who don't want to mess up their hair, and wear a headset with the band around the neck, earpiece angled off the back of the earlobe. They turn up the volume to full to be able to hear, and the speaker has a direct line to the microphone hanging 4" away from their face. On Mon, Jun 14, 2021 at 2:45 PM Mike Hammett wrote: > I can't say I've experienced it, no. > > It was just something a potential customer told me they were concerned > with. > > > > - > Mike Hammett > Intelligent Computing Solutions > http://www.ics-il.com > > > > Midwest Internet Exchange > http://www.midwest-ix.com > > > > -- > *From: *"Carlos Alvarez" > *To: *voiceops@voiceops.org > *Sent: *Monday, June 14, 2021 4:37:38 PM > *Subject: *Re: [VoiceOps] Call Quality > > So are you saying that you've experienced echo on a fully VoIP call? IP > handset to IP handset, without some sort of analog interface other than in > the handsets? > > I can't recall the last echo complaint we've had. > > > On Mon, Jun 14, 2021 at 2:35 PM Mike Hammett wrote: > >> Well right. >> >> The analog portions of most calls are extremely small anymore (speaker to >> ear and mouth to microphone). >> >> >> >> - >> Mike Hammett >> Intelligent Computing Solutions >> http://www.ics-il.com >> >> >> >> Midwest Internet Exchange >> http://www.midwest-ix.com >> >> >> >> -- >> *From: *"Carlos Alvarez" >> *To: *voiceops@voiceops.org >> *Sent: *Monday, June 14, 2021 4:31:07 PM >> *Subject: *Re: [VoiceOps] Call Quality >> >> Well, no call is purely digital, the endpoints are still analog, as is >> the meatbag behind the handset. I can't imagine any way you can create >> echo in the digital portions. But a mismatch in impedance on an ATA or >> similar device would be a common old problem I've faced. >> >> >> On Mon, Jun 14, 2021 at 2:28 PM Mike Hammett wrote: >> >>> One of the concerns I heard was echo. On a purely digital call, what >>> would be the cause of echo? >>> >>> >>> >>> - >>> Mike Hammett >>> Intelligent Computing Solutions >>> http://www.ics-il.com >>> >>> >>> >>> Midwest Internet Exchange >>> http://www.midwest-ix.com >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> *From: *"Mike Hammett" >>> *To: *"VoiceOps" >>> *Sent: *Sunday, June 13, 2021 1:11:30 PM >>> *Subject: *[VoiceOps] Call Quality >>> >>> I've heard a variety of complaints and concerns over the years about >>> call quality. How are these quality issues introduced? As long as pipes and >>> equipment aren't overloaded, where is a quality issue to come from? >>> >>> >>> Obviously, the closer you are to the handsets, the less opportunity >>> there is for issues. What else is there to take into account? >>> >>> >>> >>> - >>> Mike Hammett >>> Intelligent Computing Solutions >>> http://www.ics-il.com >>> >>> >>> >>> Midwest Internet Exchange >>> http://www.midwest-ix.com >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ___ >>> VoiceOps mailing list >>> VoiceOps@voiceops.org >>> https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops >>> >>> ___ >>> VoiceOps mailing list >>> VoiceOps@voiceops.org >>> https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops >>> >> >> ___ >> VoiceOps mailing list >> VoiceOps@voiceops.org >> https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops >> >> > ___ > VoiceOps mailing list > VoiceOps@voiceops.org > https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops > > ___ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps@voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
Re: [VoiceOps] Call Quality
God, I hope customers don't hold their carriers responsible for inappropriate use of speakerphones. Yes, I'm sure the complaints received for the above are non-null. That's how much faith I have in customers. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com Midwest Internet Exchange http://www.midwest-ix.com - Original Message - From: "Tim Bray via VoiceOps" To: voiceops@voiceops.org Sent: Monday, June 14, 2021 4:36:55 PM Subject: Re: [VoiceOps] Call Quality On 14/06/2021 22:25, Mike Hammett wrote: > One of the concerns I heard was echo. On a purely digital call, what > would be the cause of echo? Echo, as in hearing yourself coming back with a delay? Sound flying from the speaker to the microphone at the far end. Dodgy speaker phone, poor plastic design of the phone, DSP not doing echo cancellation. Or too much end to end latency - if it is quick enough, you don't notice. Could be loads of things. Quite often with third party USB or bluetooth `speaker phones` -- Tim Bray Huddersfield, GB t...@kooky.org ___ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps@voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops ___ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps@voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
Re: [VoiceOps] Call Quality
I can't say I've experienced it, no. It was just something a potential customer told me they were concerned with. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com Midwest Internet Exchange http://www.midwest-ix.com - Original Message - From: "Carlos Alvarez" To: voiceops@voiceops.org Sent: Monday, June 14, 2021 4:37:38 PM Subject: Re: [VoiceOps] Call Quality So are you saying that you've experienced echo on a fully VoIP call? IP handset to IP handset, without some sort of analog interface other than in the handsets? I can't recall the last echo complaint we've had. On Mon, Jun 14, 2021 at 2:35 PM Mike Hammett < voice...@ics-il.net > wrote: Well right. The analog portions of most calls are extremely small anymore (speaker to ear and mouth to microphone). - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com Midwest Internet Exchange http://www.midwest-ix.com From: "Carlos Alvarez" < caalva...@gmail.com > To: voiceops@voiceops.org Sent: Monday, June 14, 2021 4:31:07 PM Subject: Re: [VoiceOps] Call Quality Well, no call is purely digital, the endpoints are still analog, as is the meatbag behind the handset. I can't imagine any way you can create echo in the digital portions. But a mismatch in impedance on an ATA or similar device would be a common old problem I've faced. On Mon, Jun 14, 2021 at 2:28 PM Mike Hammett < voice...@ics-il.net > wrote: One of the concerns I heard was echo. On a purely digital call, what would be the cause of echo? - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com Midwest Internet Exchange http://www.midwest-ix.com From: "Mike Hammett" < voice...@ics-il.net > To: "VoiceOps" < voiceops@voiceops.org > Sent: Sunday, June 13, 2021 1:11:30 PM Subject: [VoiceOps] Call Quality I've heard a variety of complaints and concerns over the years about call quality. How are these quality issues introduced? As long as pipes and equipment aren't overloaded, where is a quality issue to come from? Obviously, the closer you are to the handsets, the less opportunity there is for issues. What else is there to take into account? - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com Midwest Internet Exchange http://www.midwest-ix.com ___ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps@voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops ___ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps@voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops ___ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps@voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops ___ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps@voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops ___ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps@voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
Re: [VoiceOps] Call Quality
I regularly hear echo on Teams calls when there is a person is not using a headset and the reflection off the walls of the room are outside what the ECX software on the computer can cope with. > On Jun 14, 2021, at 4:35 PM, Mike Hammett wrote: > > Well right. > > The analog portions of most calls are extremely small anymore (speaker to ear > and mouth to microphone). > > > > - > Mike Hammett > Intelligent Computing Solutions > http://www.ics-il.com > > > > Midwest Internet Exchange > http://www.midwest-ix.com > > > > From: "Carlos Alvarez" > To: voiceops@voiceops.org > Sent: Monday, June 14, 2021 4:31:07 PM > Subject: Re: [VoiceOps] Call Quality > > Well, no call is purely digital, the endpoints are still analog, as is the > meatbag behind the handset. I can't imagine any way you can create echo in > the digital portions. But a mismatch in impedance on an ATA or similar > device would be a common old problem I've faced. > > > On Mon, Jun 14, 2021 at 2:28 PM Mike Hammett wrote: > One of the concerns I heard was echo. On a purely digital call, what would be > the cause of echo? > > > > - > Mike Hammett > Intelligent Computing Solutions > http://www.ics-il.com > > > > Midwest Internet Exchange > http://www.midwest-ix.com > > > > From: "Mike Hammett" > To: "VoiceOps" > Sent: Sunday, June 13, 2021 1:11:30 PM > Subject: [VoiceOps] Call Quality > > I've heard a variety of complaints and concerns over the years about call > quality. How are these quality issues introduced? As long as pipes and > equipment aren't overloaded, where is a quality issue to come from? > > > Obviously, the closer you are to the handsets, the less opportunity there is > for issues. What else is there to take into account? > > > > - > Mike Hammett > Intelligent Computing Solutions > http://www.ics-il.com > > > > Midwest Internet Exchange > http://www.midwest-ix.com > > > > > ___ > VoiceOps mailing list > VoiceOps@voiceops.org > https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops > > ___ > VoiceOps mailing list > VoiceOps@voiceops.org > https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops > > ___ > VoiceOps mailing list > VoiceOps@voiceops.org > https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops > > ___ > VoiceOps mailing list > VoiceOps@voiceops.org > https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops ___ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps@voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
Re: [VoiceOps] Call Quality
On 14/06/2021 22:25, Mike Hammett wrote: One of the concerns I heard was echo. On a purely digital call, what would be the cause of echo? Echo, as in hearing yourself coming back with a delay? Sound flying from the speaker to the microphone at the far end. Dodgy speaker phone, poor plastic design of the phone, DSP not doing echo cancellation. Or too much end to end latency - if it is quick enough, you don't notice. Could be loads of things. Quite often with third party USB or bluetooth `speaker phones` -- Tim Bray Huddersfield, GB t...@kooky.org ___ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps@voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
Re: [VoiceOps] Call Quality
So are you saying that you've experienced echo on a fully VoIP call? IP handset to IP handset, without some sort of analog interface other than in the handsets? I can't recall the last echo complaint we've had. On Mon, Jun 14, 2021 at 2:35 PM Mike Hammett wrote: > Well right. > > The analog portions of most calls are extremely small anymore (speaker to > ear and mouth to microphone). > > > > - > Mike Hammett > Intelligent Computing Solutions > http://www.ics-il.com > > > > Midwest Internet Exchange > http://www.midwest-ix.com > > > > -- > *From: *"Carlos Alvarez" > *To: *voiceops@voiceops.org > *Sent: *Monday, June 14, 2021 4:31:07 PM > *Subject: *Re: [VoiceOps] Call Quality > > Well, no call is purely digital, the endpoints are still analog, as is the > meatbag behind the handset. I can't imagine any way you can create echo in > the digital portions. But a mismatch in impedance on an ATA or similar > device would be a common old problem I've faced. > > > On Mon, Jun 14, 2021 at 2:28 PM Mike Hammett wrote: > >> One of the concerns I heard was echo. On a purely digital call, what >> would be the cause of echo? >> >> >> >> - >> Mike Hammett >> Intelligent Computing Solutions >> http://www.ics-il.com >> >> >> >> Midwest Internet Exchange >> http://www.midwest-ix.com >> >> >> >> -- >> *From: *"Mike Hammett" >> *To: *"VoiceOps" >> *Sent: *Sunday, June 13, 2021 1:11:30 PM >> *Subject: *[VoiceOps] Call Quality >> >> I've heard a variety of complaints and concerns over the years about call >> quality. How are these quality issues introduced? As long as pipes and >> equipment aren't overloaded, where is a quality issue to come from? >> >> >> Obviously, the closer you are to the handsets, the less opportunity there >> is for issues. What else is there to take into account? >> >> >> >> - >> Mike Hammett >> Intelligent Computing Solutions >> http://www.ics-il.com >> >> >> >> Midwest Internet Exchange >> http://www.midwest-ix.com >> >> >> >> >> ___ >> VoiceOps mailing list >> VoiceOps@voiceops.org >> https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops >> >> ___ >> VoiceOps mailing list >> VoiceOps@voiceops.org >> https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops >> > > ___ > VoiceOps mailing list > VoiceOps@voiceops.org > https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops > > ___ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps@voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
Re: [VoiceOps] Call Quality
Well right. The analog portions of most calls are extremely small anymore (speaker to ear and mouth to microphone). - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com Midwest Internet Exchange http://www.midwest-ix.com - Original Message - From: "Carlos Alvarez" To: voiceops@voiceops.org Sent: Monday, June 14, 2021 4:31:07 PM Subject: Re: [VoiceOps] Call Quality Well, no call is purely digital, the endpoints are still analog, as is the meatbag behind the handset. I can't imagine any way you can create echo in the digital portions. But a mismatch in impedance on an ATA or similar device would be a common old problem I've faced. On Mon, Jun 14, 2021 at 2:28 PM Mike Hammett < voice...@ics-il.net > wrote: One of the concerns I heard was echo. On a purely digital call, what would be the cause of echo? - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com Midwest Internet Exchange http://www.midwest-ix.com From: "Mike Hammett" < voice...@ics-il.net > To: "VoiceOps" < voiceops@voiceops.org > Sent: Sunday, June 13, 2021 1:11:30 PM Subject: [VoiceOps] Call Quality I've heard a variety of complaints and concerns over the years about call quality. How are these quality issues introduced? As long as pipes and equipment aren't overloaded, where is a quality issue to come from? Obviously, the closer you are to the handsets, the less opportunity there is for issues. What else is there to take into account? - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com Midwest Internet Exchange http://www.midwest-ix.com ___ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps@voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops ___ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps@voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops ___ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps@voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops ___ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps@voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
Re: [VoiceOps] Call Quality
Well, no call is purely digital, the endpoints are still analog, as is the meatbag behind the handset. I can't imagine any way you can create echo in the digital portions. But a mismatch in impedance on an ATA or similar device would be a common old problem I've faced. On Mon, Jun 14, 2021 at 2:28 PM Mike Hammett wrote: > One of the concerns I heard was echo. On a purely digital call, what would > be the cause of echo? > > > > - > Mike Hammett > Intelligent Computing Solutions > http://www.ics-il.com > > > > Midwest Internet Exchange > http://www.midwest-ix.com > > > > -- > *From: *"Mike Hammett" > *To: *"VoiceOps" > *Sent: *Sunday, June 13, 2021 1:11:30 PM > *Subject: *[VoiceOps] Call Quality > > I've heard a variety of complaints and concerns over the years about call > quality. How are these quality issues introduced? As long as pipes and > equipment aren't overloaded, where is a quality issue to come from? > > > Obviously, the closer you are to the handsets, the less opportunity there > is for issues. What else is there to take into account? > > > > - > Mike Hammett > Intelligent Computing Solutions > http://www.ics-il.com > > > > Midwest Internet Exchange > http://www.midwest-ix.com > > > > > ___ > VoiceOps mailing list > VoiceOps@voiceops.org > https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops > > ___ > VoiceOps mailing list > VoiceOps@voiceops.org > https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops > ___ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps@voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
Re: [VoiceOps] Call Quality
One of the concerns I heard was echo. On a purely digital call, what would be the cause of echo? - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com Midwest Internet Exchange http://www.midwest-ix.com - Original Message - From: "Mike Hammett" To: "VoiceOps" Sent: Sunday, June 13, 2021 1:11:30 PM Subject: [VoiceOps] Call Quality I've heard a variety of complaints and concerns over the years about call quality. How are these quality issues introduced? As long as pipes and equipment aren't overloaded, where is a quality issue to come from? Obviously, the closer you are to the handsets, the less opportunity there is for issues. What else is there to take into account? - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com Midwest Internet Exchange http://www.midwest-ix.com ___ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps@voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops ___ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps@voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
Re: [VoiceOps] Call Quality
Transcoding is something that’s not been mentioned here yet. Especially with the growth of Microsoft Teams using Silk audio codec driving wideband telephony and all voice arriving from a wireless network needs to be transcoded before going to the PSTN which is clamped at G.711 narrowband. Packet loss & jitter (and latency which is not part of normal voice clarity measurements) cause poor voice quality as perceived by the user. Maybe they don’t have QoS set for voice on their LAN/ customer premises, or likely gets stripped off as it comes in over ISP/access link/last Mile. Congestion, CPU utilization, audio set up (microphone etc.) and other impairments introduced by the desktop/PC/Softphone (transmitting & receiving) will also impact call quality + anything processing audio in the network such as a transcoder. The “MOS” value you typically see from a packet monitoring system is derived from R factor and only takes into account packet loss and jitter. But the user experience is based on the AUDIO they receive. the only MOS measurement to quantify this is AUDIO MOS or PESQ/POLQA MOS and involves transmitting an audio file across the network and comparing it with its reference. if you're concerned about customs complaining poor UX, record a small sample of their audio coming from them (with their permission of course, usual waivers etc.] and send it back to them as a pcap, so they can listen to it for themselves. If you need any help decoding anything other than G.711 in Wireshark, let us know. Many Thanks & Best Regards, Richard Jobson Teraquant Corporation ph: 719 488 1003 d/l: (719) 766-8523 www.teraquant.com<http://www.teraquant.com/> rich...@teraquant.com https://www.linkedin.com/in/uc-expert-monitoring/ Network Monitoring and Service Assurance - Speech Quality Experts (PESQ/POLQA) and Active Testing - Reporting – HPBX - Session Border Controllers – SDN and SD-WAN - Big Data Analytics and fraud detection and protection. -- NOTICE: This electronic mail transmission may contain confidential information and is intended only for the person(s) named. Any use, copying, or disclosure by any other person is strictly prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error, please notify the sender via e-mail. From: VoiceOps on behalf of Tim Bray via VoiceOps Reply-To: Tim Bray Date: Monday, June 14, 2021 at 3:23 AM To: Mike Hammett , Subject: Re: [VoiceOps] Call Quality Hi, It depends on your definition of pipes not too overloaded. And I'm presuming from mention of pipes that you mean network induced call quality problems. Usually bufferbloat. Routers with too much memory cause a lot of latency at the point of a fast to slow transition in the network. And this can be caused by anything from a crappy DSL router on upstream, and somebody emails a large attachment during a call. Or it can be something like a unsupported 100meg optic on the customer side of a juniper edge router on a 10gig core.Customer does a download, latency goes nuts and all the phone calls sound naff. Tools to test. fast.com and press the `Show more info` button. Forget the bandwidth figures, and look at the difference between the loaded and unloaded latency. If a big difference, you have a problem. http://www.dslreports.com/speedtest This will give a bufferbloat score. Then look at the results, and scroll down a bit and it will show you upload and download latency figures for idle, downloading and uploading.(This is one of the most amazing tools, and I'd love a way to pay them some money each month to support the service. They were struggling a bit at some stage.) Tim On 13/06/2021 19:11, Mike Hammett wrote: I've heard a variety of complaints and concerns over the years about call quality. How are these quality issues introduced? As long as pipes and equipment aren't overloaded, where is a quality issue to come from? Obviously, the closer you are to the handsets, the less opportunity there is for issues. What else is there to take into account? - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com Midwest Internet Exchange http://www.midwest-ix.com ___ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps@voiceops.org<mailto:VoiceOps@voiceops.org> https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops ___ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps@voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops ___ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps@voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
Re: [VoiceOps] Call Quality
Yeah, there's so many moving parts to the voice quality equation within the supply chain, equipment choices, and network engineering that it would be hard to even scratch the surface in a mailing list thread. On 6/14/21 12:26 PM, Brandon Svec via VoiceOps wrote: There are so many places that poor call quality can be introduced that I suppose someone could write a book about it :) I do have a general sense that some voice providers, particularly the largest, do some "proprietary magic" for lack of a better term. For example, RingCentral explains somewhere that they transmit copies of your voice packets on diverse paths that are monitored carefully and can dynamically switch to the best path during a call with little to no noticeable call quality changes. I always thought that was a pretty novel and a good idea. I suppose there is a similar reason that Zoom will tend to work fine where all else being equal another similar platform will not perform well. -Brandon On Mon, Jun 14, 2021 at 9:16 AM Mike Hammett <mailto:voice...@ics-il.net>> wrote: I should add that my initial intent was the voice ecosystem, aside from the end-users. For those, usually it's one of the things we all already know. Why would carrier A have "good quality", while carrier B didn't? I had a conversation with a customer about quality being more important than price. A lot of things come to mind right away (such as diversity, latency, jitter, packet loss, etc.), but I'm looking for what I don't know. o Are there just that many poorly ran companies where the low-hanging fruit I'm brushing aside is where almost all of the problems occur? - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com <http://www.ics-il.com> Midwest Internet Exchange http://www.midwest-ix.com <http://www.midwest-ix.com> *From: *"Mike Hammett" mailto:voice...@ics-il.net>> *To: *"VoiceOps" mailto:voiceops@voiceops.org>> *Sent: *Sunday, June 13, 2021 1:11:30 PM *Subject: *[VoiceOps] Call Quality I've heard a variety of complaints and concerns over the years about call quality. How are these quality issues introduced? As long as pipes and equipment aren't overloaded, where is a quality issue to come from? Obviously, the closer you are to the handsets, the less opportunity there is for issues. What else is there to take into account? - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com <http://www.ics-il.com> Midwest Internet Exchange http://www.midwest-ix.com <http://www.midwest-ix.com> ___ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps@voiceops.org <mailto:VoiceOps@voiceops.org> https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops <https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops> ___ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps@voiceops.org <mailto:VoiceOps@voiceops.org> https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops <https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops> ___ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps@voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops -- Alex Balashov | Principal | Evariste Systems LLC Tel: +1-706-510-6800 / +1-800-250-5920 (toll-free) Web: http://www.evaristesys.com/, http://www.csrpswitch.com/ ___ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps@voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
Re: [VoiceOps] Call Quality
There are so many places that poor call quality can be introduced that I suppose someone could write a book about it :) I do have a general sense that some voice providers, particularly the largest, do some "proprietary magic" for lack of a better term. For example, RingCentral explains somewhere that they transmit copies of your voice packets on diverse paths that are monitored carefully and can dynamically switch to the best path during a call with little to no noticeable call quality changes. I always thought that was a pretty novel and a good idea. I suppose there is a similar reason that Zoom will tend to work fine where all else being equal another similar platform will not perform well. -Brandon On Mon, Jun 14, 2021 at 9:16 AM Mike Hammett wrote: > I should add that my initial intent was the voice ecosystem, aside from > the end-users. For those, usually it's one of the things we all already > know. > > Why would carrier A have "good quality", while carrier B didn't? > > > I had a conversation with a customer about quality being more important > than price. A lot of things come to mind right away (such as diversity, > latency, jitter, packet loss, etc.), but I'm looking for what I don't know. > > > > o > > > Are there just that many poorly ran companies where the low-hanging fruit > I'm brushing aside is where almost all of the problems occur? > > > > - > Mike Hammett > Intelligent Computing Solutions > http://www.ics-il.com > > > > Midwest Internet Exchange > http://www.midwest-ix.com > > > > ------ > *From: *"Mike Hammett" > *To: *"VoiceOps" > *Sent: *Sunday, June 13, 2021 1:11:30 PM > *Subject: *[VoiceOps] Call Quality > > I've heard a variety of complaints and concerns over the years about call > quality. How are these quality issues introduced? As long as pipes and > equipment aren't overloaded, where is a quality issue to come from? > > > Obviously, the closer you are to the handsets, the less opportunity there > is for issues. What else is there to take into account? > > > > - > Mike Hammett > Intelligent Computing Solutions > http://www.ics-il.com > > > > Midwest Internet Exchange > http://www.midwest-ix.com > > > > > ___ > VoiceOps mailing list > VoiceOps@voiceops.org > https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops > > ___ > VoiceOps mailing list > VoiceOps@voiceops.org > https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops > ___ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps@voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
Re: [VoiceOps] Call Quality
I should add that my initial intent was the voice ecosystem, aside from the end-users. For those, usually it's one of the things we all already know. Why would carrier A have "good quality", while carrier B didn't? I had a conversation with a customer about quality being more important than price. A lot of things come to mind right away (such as diversity, latency, jitter, packet loss, etc.), but I'm looking for what I don't know. o Are there just that many poorly ran companies where the low-hanging fruit I'm brushing aside is where almost all of the problems occur? - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com Midwest Internet Exchange http://www.midwest-ix.com - Original Message - From: "Mike Hammett" To: "VoiceOps" Sent: Sunday, June 13, 2021 1:11:30 PM Subject: [VoiceOps] Call Quality I've heard a variety of complaints and concerns over the years about call quality. How are these quality issues introduced? As long as pipes and equipment aren't overloaded, where is a quality issue to come from? Obviously, the closer you are to the handsets, the less opportunity there is for issues. What else is there to take into account? - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com Midwest Internet Exchange http://www.midwest-ix.com ___ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps@voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops ___ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps@voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
Re: [VoiceOps] Call Quality
Hi, It depends on your definition of pipes not too overloaded. And I'm presuming from mention of pipes that you mean network induced call quality problems. Usually bufferbloat. Routers with too much memory cause a lot of latency at the point of a fast to slow transition in the network. And this can be caused by anything from a crappy DSL router on upstream, and somebody emails a large attachment during a call. Or it can be something like a unsupported 100meg optic on the customer side of a juniper edge router on a 10gig core. Customer does a download, latency goes nuts and all the phone calls sound naff. Tools to test. fast.com and press the `Show more info` button. Forget the bandwidth figures, and look at the difference between the loaded and unloaded latency. If a big difference, you have a problem. http://www.dslreports.com/speedtest This will give a bufferbloat score. Then look at the results, and scroll down a bit and it will show you upload and download latency figures for idle, downloading and uploading. (This is one of the most amazing tools, and I'd love a way to pay them some money each month to support the service. They were struggling a bit at some stage.) Tim On 13/06/2021 19:11, Mike Hammett wrote: I've heard a variety of complaints and concerns over the years about call quality. How are these quality issues introduced? As long as pipes and equipment aren't overloaded, where is a quality issue to come from? Obviously, the closer you are to the handsets, the less opportunity there is for issues. What else is there to take into account? - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com Midwest Internet Exchange http://www.midwest-ix.com ___ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps@voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops ___ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps@voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
Re: [VoiceOps] Call Quality
Not sure how useful it is Mike, but thought of a couple of examples: Dropped packets (eg from radio interfaces) NAT (eg one-way audio caused by broken ALGs, or lost signalling due to state table timeouts) Pete > On 14/06/2021, at 6:11 AM, Mike Hammett wrote: > > I've heard a variety of complaints and concerns over the years about call > quality. How are these quality issues introduced? As long as pipes and > equipment aren't overloaded, where is a quality issue to come from? > > > Obviously, the closer you are to the handsets, the less opportunity there is > for issues. What else is there to take into account? ___ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps@voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
[VoiceOps] Call Quality
I've heard a variety of complaints and concerns over the years about call quality. How are these quality issues introduced? As long as pipes and equipment aren't overloaded, where is a quality issue to come from? Obviously, the closer you are to the handsets, the less opportunity there is for issues. What else is there to take into account? - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com Midwest Internet Exchange http://www.midwest-ix.com ___ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps@voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
Re: [VoiceOps] Call Quality Scoring?
So is it safe to assume the access line is POTS/analog? If so, you have POTS from local Malaysian LEC to your network? Are you Connecting to your network via a SIP trunk? If so, you can capture the IP packets where it enters your network using Wireshark (or any other tool which captures RTP eg Palladion/OCOM) and listen to the file. Obtaining a PESQ score on your audio is not recommended but your subjective assessment will identify perhaps pkt loss versus noise on the analog POTS line. A pkt capture monitoring tool will only measure pkt loss & jitter . so if the impairment is being introduced on the Malaysian LEC IP network, you will measure it. But if it is a problem with the analog access line, you’ll need an audio layer measurement such as PESQ. PESQ is an active intrusive test and involves sending a very clean audio file into the system under test (ie network ) and receiving at other end and comparing that with the original signal using a proprietary software algorithm (PESQ). This can be automated with something like Malden . and in the case of Malden, measured accurately. This will give you a number. Ie a MOS number which you can communicate to the Malaysian LEC and show them how bad it is in quantitative terms and also ow often/time of day etc. Malden will also give you analysis on the cause of the problem Lets know if we can be of further help Thanks Richard Jobson Teraquant Corporation ph: 719 488 1003 ext 101 www.teraquant.com i...@teraquant.com On 7/11/16, 4:05 PM, "VoiceOps on behalf of jungle Boogie" wrote: On 11 July 2016 at 13:38, wrote: > This may be a silly question.is there any way that I can get a MOS or > PESQ score for a call? See this blog: https://txlab.wordpress.com/2015/06/02/quality-assurance-for-voip-calls-2/ And this: http://voxserv.ch/demolab.html > > I have an access line in Malaysia that's really quite bad quality. The > provider says it "sounds fine to them." > > I'd like to have some empirical evidence that it's bad. I've setup an > automated system to answer the line a play a known recording. Now I just > need some way to take a measurement. > > Any ideas? > > Thanks, > > Michael Graves > mgra...@mstvp.com > http://www.mgraves.org > o(713) 861-4005 > c(713) 201-1262 > sip:mgra...@mjg.onsip.com > skype mjgraves > -- --- inum: 883510009027723 sip: jungleboo...@sip2sip.info ___ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps@voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops ___ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps@voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
Re: [VoiceOps] Call Quality Scoring?
On 11 July 2016 at 13:38, wrote: > This may be a silly question.is there any way that I can get a MOS or > PESQ score for a call? See this blog: https://txlab.wordpress.com/2015/06/02/quality-assurance-for-voip-calls-2/ And this: http://voxserv.ch/demolab.html > > I have an access line in Malaysia that's really quite bad quality. The > provider says it "sounds fine to them." > > I'd like to have some empirical evidence that it's bad. I've setup an > automated system to answer the line a play a known recording. Now I just > need some way to take a measurement. > > Any ideas? > > Thanks, > > Michael Graves > mgra...@mstvp.com > http://www.mgraves.org > o(713) 861-4005 > c(713) 201-1262 > sip:mgra...@mjg.onsip.com > skype mjgraves > -- --- inum: 883510009027723 sip: jungleboo...@sip2sip.info ___ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps@voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
Re: [VoiceOps] Call Quality Scoring?
Try AQuA: http://sevana.biz/products/aqua/ Aviv On Mon, Jul 11, 2016, at 01:38 PM, mgra...@mstvp.com wrote: > This may be a silly question.is there any way that I can get a MOS > or PESQ score for a call? > > I have an access line in Malaysia that's really quite bad quality. The > provider says it "sounds fine to them." > > I'd like to have some empirical evidence that it's bad. I've setup an > automated system to answer the line a play a known recording. Now I > just need some way to take a measurement. > > Any ideas? > > Thanks, > > Michael Graves mgra...@mstvp.com > http://www.mgraves.org > o(713) 861-4005 > c(713) 201-1262 sip:mgra...@mjg.onsip.com skype mjgraves > _ > VoiceOps mailing list > VoiceOps@voiceops.org > https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops ___ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps@voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
Re: [VoiceOps] Call Quality Scoring?
If it’s a VOIP call you can grab stats from it using a number of different products. From: VoiceOps [mailto:voiceops-boun...@voiceops.org] On Behalf Of mgra...@mstvp.com Sent: Monday, July 11, 2016 3:38 PM To: voiceops@voiceops.org Subject: [VoiceOps] Call Quality Scoring? This may be a silly question.is there any way that I can get a MOS or PESQ score for a call? I have an access line in Malaysia that's really quite bad quality. The provider says it "sounds fine to them." I'd like to have some empirical evidence that it's bad. I've setup an automated system to answer the line a play a known recording. Now I just need some way to take a measurement. Any ideas? Thanks, Michael Graves mgra...@mstvp.com<mailto:mgra...@mstvp.com> http://www.mgraves.org o(713) 861-4005 c(713) 201-1262 sip:mgra...@mjg.onsip.com skype mjgraves ___ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps@voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
[VoiceOps] Call Quality Scoring?
This may be a silly question.is there any way that I can get a MOS or PESQ score for a call? I have an access line in Malaysia that's really quite bad quality. The provider says it "sounds fine to them." I'd like to have some empirical evidence that it's bad. I've setup an automated system to answer the line a play a known recording. Now I just need some way to take a measurement. Any ideas? Thanks, Michael Graves mgra...@mstvp.com http://www.mgraves.org o(713) 861-4005 c(713) 201-1262 sip:mgra...@mjg.onsip.com skype mjgraves ___ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps@voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
Re: [VoiceOps] Call Quality issues?
Our TW Telecom rep changed email accounts today to level3.com . I wonder when the networks will merge or if Level 3 now will upgrade all of TW Telecoms ports. Aryn H. K. Nakaoka anaka...@trinet-hi.com Direct: 808.356.2901 Fax : 808.356.2919 Call me with our Browser Phone : https://encrypted.alohatone.com/3562901 Tri-net Solutions 733 Bishop St. #1170 Honolulu, HI 96813 http://www.trinet-hi.com Aloha Tone PBX http://youtu.be/27v2wbnFIDs CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: The information contained in this email and any attachments may be privileged, confidential and protected from disclosure. Any disclosure, distribution or copying of this email or any attachments by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender immediately by replying to the message and deleting this email and any attachments from your system. Thank you for your cooperation. Download my public key file: http://keyserver1.pgp.com/vkd/DownloadKey.event?keyid=0x879851CEB7109A52 On Tue, Nov 4, 2014 at 4:26 AM, jungle Boogie wrote: > Hello, > On 3 November 2014 23:23, Aryn Nakaoka 808.356.2901 > wrote: > > It'll be interesting now that L3 and TWTC are one. > > > > > http://investors.level3.com/investor-relations/presentations-and-events/default.aspx > > > > > > I thought this had already happened based on this: > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TW_Telecom > On June 16, 2014, Level 3 Communications Inc. agreed to buy TW Telecom > for about $5.7 billion in cash and stock. > > But now it is official. > > > > > Aryn H. K. Nakaoka > > anaka...@trinet-hi.com > > > > Direct: 808.356.2901 > > Fax : 808.356.2919 > > > > -- > --- > inum: 883510009027723 > sip: jungleboo...@sip2sip.info > xmpp: jungle-boo...@jit.si > ___ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps@voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
Re: [VoiceOps] Call Quality issues?
Hello, On 3 November 2014 23:23, Aryn Nakaoka 808.356.2901 wrote: > It'll be interesting now that L3 and TWTC are one. > > http://investors.level3.com/investor-relations/presentations-and-events/default.aspx > > I thought this had already happened based on this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TW_Telecom On June 16, 2014, Level 3 Communications Inc. agreed to buy TW Telecom for about $5.7 billion in cash and stock. But now it is official. > > Aryn H. K. Nakaoka > anaka...@trinet-hi.com > > Direct: 808.356.2901 > Fax : 808.356.2919 > -- --- inum: 883510009027723 sip: jungleboo...@sip2sip.info xmpp: jungle-boo...@jit.si ___ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps@voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
Re: [VoiceOps] Call Quality issues?
It'll be interesting now that L3 and TWTC are one. http://investors.level3.com/investor-relations/presentations-and-events/default.aspx Aryn H. K. Nakaoka anaka...@trinet-hi.com Direct: 808.356.2901 Fax : 808.356.2919 Call me with our Browser Phone : https://encrypted.alohatone.com/3562901 Tri-net Solutions 733 Bishop St. #1170 Honolulu, HI 96813 http://www.trinet-hi.com Aloha Tone PBX http://youtu.be/27v2wbnFIDs CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: The information contained in this email and any attachments may be privileged, confidential and protected from disclosure. Any disclosure, distribution or copying of this email or any attachments by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender immediately by replying to the message and deleting this email and any attachments from your system. Thank you for your cooperation. Download my public key file: http://keyserver1.pgp.com/vkd/DownloadKey.event?keyid=0x879851CEB7109A52 On Mon, Nov 3, 2014 at 2:52 PM, Nick Crocker wrote: > Yes we have a customer reporting issues with calls going across L3 to one > our SBCs in LA. Does not seem to be widespread for us yet, we have have L3 > and TWTC in LA and it seems to be isolated to L3. The customer also uses > Intelepeer and they are having the same packet loss from them. > > On Mon, Nov 3, 2014 at 3:23 PM, jungle Boogie > wrote: > >> Hello Pete, >> On 3 November 2014 09:08, Pete E wrote: >> > Anyone seeing heavy call quality problems? We're still trying to narrow >> down >> > but appears to be Level3/Global Crossing? >> > >> >> Yes, at work we use 8x8.com which is level 3 and a few calls over the >> past hour or so are broken up badly but when trying to test by calling >> inbound from mobile number, audio was not broken up. >> > >> > >> >> >> -- >> --- >> inum: 883510009027723 >> sip: jungleboo...@sip2sip.info >> xmpp: jungle-boo...@jit.si >> ___ >> VoiceOps mailing list >> VoiceOps@voiceops.org >> https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops >> > > > ___ > VoiceOps mailing list > VoiceOps@voiceops.org > https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops > > ___ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps@voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
Re: [VoiceOps] Call Quality issues?
Yes we have a customer reporting issues with calls going across L3 to one our SBCs in LA. Does not seem to be widespread for us yet, we have have L3 and TWTC in LA and it seems to be isolated to L3. The customer also uses Intelepeer and they are having the same packet loss from them. On Mon, Nov 3, 2014 at 3:23 PM, jungle Boogie wrote: > Hello Pete, > On 3 November 2014 09:08, Pete E wrote: > > Anyone seeing heavy call quality problems? We're still trying to narrow > down > > but appears to be Level3/Global Crossing? > > > > Yes, at work we use 8x8.com which is level 3 and a few calls over the > past hour or so are broken up badly but when trying to test by calling > inbound from mobile number, audio was not broken up. > > > > > > > -- > --- > inum: 883510009027723 > sip: jungleboo...@sip2sip.info > xmpp: jungle-boo...@jit.si > ___ > VoiceOps mailing list > VoiceOps@voiceops.org > https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops > ___ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps@voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
Re: [VoiceOps] Call Quality issues?
Hello Pete, On 3 November 2014 09:08, Pete E wrote: > Anyone seeing heavy call quality problems? We're still trying to narrow down > but appears to be Level3/Global Crossing? > Yes, at work we use 8x8.com which is level 3 and a few calls over the past hour or so are broken up badly but when trying to test by calling inbound from mobile number, audio was not broken up. > > -- --- inum: 883510009027723 sip: jungleboo...@sip2sip.info xmpp: jungle-boo...@jit.si ___ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps@voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
[VoiceOps] Call Quality issues?
Anyone seeing heavy call quality problems? We're still trying to narrow down but appears to be Level3/Global Crossing? ___ VoiceOps mailing list VoiceOps@voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
