Re: [VoiceOps] Call Quality

[Mike Johnston]

On 2021-06-16 16:42, Jared Geiger wrote:

Does Ribbon/Sonus charge extra for it even in passthrough modes


On my Ribbon C15s, there is no extra charge/license for G722. However, 
we do need to pay licenses for SIP trunks in general, which is by far 
the largest barrier towards modernizing our phone network.  We already 
have TDM hardware for the needed capacity. We also have IP hardware for 
the needed capacity.  But, since those SIP trunk licenses (RTUs) from 
Ribbon are fairly expensive, it can be hard to convince manglement why 
we need them.  If a call has to cross a T1 in my network, then it 
negotiates to only G711. Manglement doesn't seem to have any interest in 
HD calling, at least not that they have expressed to me.


___
VoiceOps mailing list
VoiceOps@voiceops.org
https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops

Re: [VoiceOps] Call Quality

[Jared Geiger]

I've seen an increase in G722 calls and I've seen a few AMR-WB calls get
through too for our International vendors. Its still relatively new for
them outside of the IPX/VoLTE market. I've had a large PTT ask to help with
end to end testing for AMR-WB with them. A handful of International vendors
are supporting G722 with us but still only Inteliquent for domestic. Does
Ribbon/Sonus charge extra for it even in passthrough modes preventing the
rest of the domestic carriers from using it?

Rural Call Completion is definitely still a big quality issue. One way
audio, foreign country ringback tone, and PDD followed by a 503 is what we
test and try to mitigate before customers notice. The race to the bottom
pricing has drawbacks. There are several CLECs that I won't put their
"Gold" , "highest level" deck in route because its still garbage.

Occasionally we will see dropped calls due to incorrectly configured SIP
timers.

I'm curious to see what happens with quality KPIs when more end
destinations start validating/rejecting SHAKEN/STIR calls. Will we get
higher PDD because carriers don't deploy their certs in a CDN and someone
DDOSes the certificate host? Will end destination carriers finally start
rejected the grey route International traffic with nothing or C level
attestations?

On Wed, Jun 16, 2021 at 1:07 PM Mike Johnston  wrote:

> On 2021-06-14 12:07, Richard Jobson wrote:
>
> before going to the PSTN which is clamped at G.711 narrowband
>
> This is starting to get a *little* bit better, but progress is painfully
> slow.  For example, Inteliquent supports G722, you just need to ask for it
> to be enabled on your SIP trunks with them.  They won't transcode, just
> allow the negotiation to pass through.  Within my telco we enable G722
> wherever possible and encourage SIP PBX subscribers to also support it all
> the way through to their phones.  We now have hundreds of endpoints that
> will negotiate G722 over the PSTN via Inteliquent.
> ___
> VoiceOps mailing list
> VoiceOps@voiceops.org
> https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
>
___
VoiceOps mailing list
VoiceOps@voiceops.org
https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops

Re: [VoiceOps] Call Quality

[Mike Johnston]

On 2021-06-14 12:07, Richard Jobson wrote:

before going to the PSTN which is clamped at G.711 narrowband


This is starting to get a /little/ bit better, but progress is painfully 
slow.  For example, Inteliquent supports G722, you just need to ask for 
it to be enabled on your SIP trunks with them.  They won't transcode, 
just allow the negotiation to pass through.  Within my telco we enable 
G722 wherever possible and encourage SIP PBX subscribers to also support 
it all the way through to their phones.  We now have hundreds of 
endpoints that will negotiate G722 over the PSTN via Inteliquent.


___
VoiceOps mailing list
VoiceOps@voiceops.org
https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops

Re: [VoiceOps] Call Quality

[Calvin Ellison]

I most often see this happen to avoid complaints about calls terminating to
cloud IP addresses or IP addresses outside the USA.



Calvin Ellison

Systems Architect

calvin.elli...@voxox.com

+1 (213) 285-0555

<http://voxox.com>

<https://www.facebook.com/VOXOX/> <https://www.instagram.com/voxoxofficial/>
<https://www.linkedin.com/company/3573541/admin/>
<https://twitter.com/Voxox>

The information contained herein is confidential and privileged information
or work product intended only for the individual or entity to whom it is
addressed. Any unauthorized use, distribution, or copying of this
communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this
communication in error, please notify me immediately.


On Wed, Jun 16, 2021 at 5:38 AM Mike Hammett  wrote:

> "Then there's the popularity of anchoring media to mask downstream
> providers"
>
> I configure all of my sessions to not re-invite, but I do so because most
> of the VoIP providers only run mediocre IP networks. I build my IP networks
> to ensure good performance to both my providers and my customers. I can't
> ensure that anyone else has built their network the same.
>
> Others do so to mask which carriers they use? That seems awfully immature.
> On inbound, it's a simple LRN lookup. On outbound, okay, that is a lot
> harder to figure out. It still doesn't make any sense.
>
>
>
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions
> http://www.ics-il.com
>
>
>
> Midwest Internet Exchange
> http://www.midwest-ix.com
>
>
>
> --
> *From: *"Calvin Ellison" 
> *To: *"Mike Hammett" 
> *Cc: *"VoiceOps" 
> *Sent: *Tuesday, June 15, 2021 5:28:15 PM
> *Subject: *Re: [VoiceOps] Call Quality
>
> VoIP termination still has the same 20th-century PSTN problems with
> low-cost/quality carriers worming their way into wholesale LCRs. Then
> there's the popularity of anchoring media to mask downstream providers, and
> the SIP/RTP trapezoid becomes a hairball of jitter, latency, and possible
> dead air from packet TTL hitting zero.
>
> If your clients want you to do something about the robocalls they are
> getting, there are many caller reputation services out there who can help.
> TransNexus/ClearIP is fairly turnkey, or you can get data directly from
> people like YouMail, Hiya, and First Orion to do your own analytics.
>
> Is RingCentral really paying the IP transit to duplicate their media
> streams just in case of some problem, or is it more likely they have
> multiple peers and use standard tricks like BGP and path monitoring to drop
> routes as needed?
>
>
>
> Calvin Ellison
>
> Systems Architect
>
> calvin.elli...@voxox.com
>
> +1 (213) 285-0555
>
> <http://voxox.com>
>
> <https://www.facebook.com/VOXOX/>
> <https://www.instagram.com/voxoxofficial/>
> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/3573541/admin/>
> <https://twitter.com/Voxox>
>
> The information contained herein is confidential and privileged
> information or work product intended only for the individual or entity to
> whom it is addressed. Any unauthorized use, distribution, or copying of
> this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this
> communication in error, please notify me immediately.
>
>
> On Mon, Jun 14, 2021 at 9:16 AM Mike Hammett  wrote:
>
>> I should add that my initial intent was the voice ecosystem, aside from
>> the end-users. For those, usually it's one of the things we all already
>> know.
>>
>> Why would carrier A have "good quality", while carrier B didn't?
>>
>>
>> I had a conversation with a customer about quality being more important
>> than price. A lot of things come to mind right away (such as diversity,
>> latency, jitter, packet loss, etc.), but I'm looking for what I don't know.
>>
>>
>>
>> o
>>
>>
>> Are there just that many poorly ran companies where the low-hanging fruit
>> I'm brushing aside is where almost all of the problems occur?
>>
>>
>>
>> -
>> Mike Hammett
>> Intelligent Computing Solutions
>> http://www.ics-il.com
>>
>>
>>
>> Midwest Internet Exchange
>> http://www.midwest-ix.com
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> *From: *"Mike Hammett" 
>> *To: *"VoiceOps" 
>> *Sent: *Sunday, June 13, 2021 1:11:30 PM
>> *Subject: *[VoiceOps] Call Quality
>>
>> I've heard a variety of complaints and concerns over the years about call
>> quality. How are these quality issues introduced? As long as pipes and
>

Re: [VoiceOps] Call Quality

[Mike Hammett]

"Then there's the popularity of anchoring media to mask downstream providers" 

I configure all of my sessions to not re-invite, but I do so because most of 
the VoIP providers only run mediocre IP networks. I build my IP networks to 
ensure good performance to both my providers and my customers. I can't ensure 
that anyone else has built their network the same. 


Others do so to mask which carriers they use? That seems awfully immature. On 
inbound, it's a simple LRN lookup. On outbound, okay, that is a lot harder to 
figure out. It still doesn't make any sense. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 
http://www.ics-il.com 



Midwest Internet Exchange 
http://www.midwest-ix.com 



- Original Message -

From: "Calvin Ellison"  
To: "Mike Hammett"  
Cc: "VoiceOps"  
Sent: Tuesday, June 15, 2021 5:28:15 PM 
Subject: Re: [VoiceOps] Call Quality 


VoIP termination still has the same 20th-century PSTN problems with 
low-cost/quality carriers worming their way into wholesale LCRs. Then there's 
the popularity of anchoring media to mask downstream providers, and the SIP/RTP 
trapezoid becomes a hairball of jitter, latency, and possible dead air from 
packet TTL hitting zero. 


If your clients want you to do something about the robocalls they are getting, 
there are many caller reputation services out there who can help. 
TransNexus/ClearIP is fairly turnkey, or you can get data directly from people 
like YouMail, Hiya, and First Orion to do your own analytics. 


Is RingCentral really paying the IP transit to duplicate their media streams 
just in case of some problem, or is it more likely they have multiple peers and 
use standard tricks like BGP and path monitoring to drop routes as needed? 
















Calvin Ellison 
Systems Architect 
calvin.elli...@voxox.com 
+1 (213) 285-0555 





The information contained herein is confidential and privileged information or 
work product intended only for the individual or entity to whom it is 
addressed. Any unauthorized use, distribution, or copying of this communication 
is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, 
please notify me immediately. 



On Mon, Jun 14, 2021 at 9:16 AM Mike Hammett < voice...@ics-il.net > wrote: 




I should add that my initial intent was the voice ecosystem, aside from the 
end-users. For those, usually it's one of the things we all already know. 


Why would carrier A have "good quality", while carrier B didn't? 




I had a conversation with a customer about quality being more important than 
price. A lot of things come to mind right away (such as diversity, latency, 
jitter, packet loss, etc.), but I'm looking for what I don't know. 






o 




Are there just that many poorly ran companies where the low-hanging fruit I'm 
brushing aside is where almost all of the problems occur? 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 
http://www.ics-il.com 



Midwest Internet Exchange 
http://www.midwest-ix.com 





From: "Mike Hammett" < voice...@ics-il.net > 
To: "VoiceOps" < voiceops@voiceops.org > 
Sent: Sunday, June 13, 2021 1:11:30 PM 
Subject: [VoiceOps] Call Quality 


I've heard a variety of complaints and concerns over the years about call 
quality. How are these quality issues introduced? As long as pipes and 
equipment aren't overloaded, where is a quality issue to come from? 




Obviously, the closer you are to the handsets, the less opportunity there is 
for issues. What else is there to take into account? 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 
http://www.ics-il.com 



Midwest Internet Exchange 
http://www.midwest-ix.com 




___ 
VoiceOps mailing list 
VoiceOps@voiceops.org 
https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops 

___ 
VoiceOps mailing list 
VoiceOps@voiceops.org 
https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops 



___
VoiceOps mailing list
VoiceOps@voiceops.org
https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops

Re: [VoiceOps] Call Quality

[Calvin Ellison]

VoIP termination still has the same 20th-century PSTN problems with
low-cost/quality carriers worming their way into wholesale LCRs. Then
there's the popularity of anchoring media to mask downstream providers, and
the SIP/RTP trapezoid becomes a hairball of jitter, latency, and possible
dead air from packet TTL hitting zero.

If your clients want you to do something about the robocalls they are
getting, there are many caller reputation services out there who can help.
TransNexus/ClearIP is fairly turnkey, or you can get data directly from
people like YouMail, Hiya, and First Orion to do your own analytics.

Is RingCentral really paying the IP transit to duplicate their media
streams just in case of some problem, or is it more likely they have
multiple peers and use standard tricks like BGP and path monitoring to drop
routes as needed?



Calvin Ellison

Systems Architect

calvin.elli...@voxox.com

+1 (213) 285-0555



 



The information contained herein is confidential and privileged information
or work product intended only for the individual or entity to whom it is
addressed. Any unauthorized use, distribution, or copying of this
communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this
communication in error, please notify me immediately.


On Mon, Jun 14, 2021 at 9:16 AM Mike Hammett  wrote:

> I should add that my initial intent was the voice ecosystem, aside from
> the end-users. For those, usually it's one of the things we all already
> know.
>
> Why would carrier A have "good quality", while carrier B didn't?
>
>
> I had a conversation with a customer about quality being more important
> than price. A lot of things come to mind right away (such as diversity,
> latency, jitter, packet loss, etc.), but I'm looking for what I don't know.
>
>
>
> o
>
>
> Are there just that many poorly ran companies where the low-hanging fruit
> I'm brushing aside is where almost all of the problems occur?
>
>
>
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions
> http://www.ics-il.com
>
>
>
> Midwest Internet Exchange
> http://www.midwest-ix.com
>
>
>
> --
> *From: *"Mike Hammett" 
> *To: *"VoiceOps" 
> *Sent: *Sunday, June 13, 2021 1:11:30 PM
> *Subject: *[VoiceOps] Call Quality
>
> I've heard a variety of complaints and concerns over the years about call
> quality. How are these quality issues introduced? As long as pipes and
> equipment aren't overloaded, where is a quality issue to come from?
>
>
> Obviously, the closer you are to the handsets, the less opportunity there
> is for issues. What else is there to take into account?
>
>
>
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions
> http://www.ics-il.com
>
>
>
> Midwest Internet Exchange
> http://www.midwest-ix.com
>
>
>
>
> ___
> VoiceOps mailing list
> VoiceOps@voiceops.org
> https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
>
> ___
> VoiceOps mailing list
> VoiceOps@voiceops.org
> https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
>
___
VoiceOps mailing list
VoiceOps@voiceops.org
https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops

Re: [VoiceOps] Call Quality

[Pete Mundy]

I can attest to them being non-zero as I have handled multiple of these tickets 
myself!

I don't believe they do it through arrogance or malice though - just plain 
ignorance.



> On 15/06/2021, at 9:46 AM, Mike Hammett  wrote:
> 
> God, I hope customers don't hold their carriers responsible for inappropriate 
> use of speakerphones.
> 
> 
> Yes, I'm sure the complaints received for the above are non-null. That's how 
> much faith I have in customers.
> 
> 
> 
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions
> http://www.ics-il.com
> 
> 
> 
> Midwest Internet Exchange
> http://www.midwest-ix.com
> 
> 
> 
> From: "Tim Bray via VoiceOps" 
> To: voiceops@voiceops.org
> Sent: Monday, June 14, 2021 4:36:55 PM
> Subject: Re: [VoiceOps] Call Quality
> 
> On 14/06/2021 22:25, Mike Hammett wrote:
> > One of the concerns I heard was echo. On a purely digital call, what 
> > would be the cause of echo?
> 
> Echo, as in hearing yourself coming back with a delay?
> 
> Sound flying from the speaker to the microphone at the far end. Dodgy 
> speaker phone, poor plastic design of the phone, DSP not doing echo 
> cancellation.   Or too much end to end latency - if it is quick enough, 
> you don't notice.  Could be loads of things.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quite often with third party USB  or bluetooth `speaker phones`
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Tim Bray
> Huddersfield, GB
> t...@kooky.org
> 
> ___
> VoiceOps mailing list
> VoiceOps@voiceops.org
> https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
> 
> ___
> VoiceOps mailing list
> VoiceOps@voiceops.org
> https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops

___
VoiceOps mailing list
VoiceOps@voiceops.org
https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops

Re: [VoiceOps] Call Quality

[mgraves mstvp . com]

That’s nice. However, a simple headset with a boom mounted microphone is a vast 
improvement over a typical situation.

Even a cheap one from Koss. 
https://www.zipdx.info/product-review-koss-cs300-usb-headset/

We have a special service for use by conference interpreters like those who 
work for the UN. We have to occasionally review headsets to verify reliable, 
full-duplex performance.

There are some USB audio interface chips that degrade microphone performance 
while in the presence of incoming sound. It’s a faulty echo cancellation scheme 
implemented in silicon.

Michael Graves
mgra...@mstvp.com<mailto:mgra...@mstvp.com>
o: (713) 861-4005
c: (713) 201-1262
sip:mgra...@mjg.onsip.com

From: Mike Hammett 
Sent: Monday, June 14, 2021 5:05 PM
To: mgraves mstvp.com 
Cc: voiceops@voiceops.org; Tim Bray 
Subject: Re: Call Quality

*nods* When in the home office, I use my podcasting setup (headphones, 
dedicated mic, ran through some software to clean up a bit more.)


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com



Midwest Internet Exchange
http://www.midwest-ix.com




From: "mgraves mstvp.com" mailto:mgra...@mstvp.com>>
To: "Mike Hammett" mailto:voice...@ics-il.net>>, "Tim 
Bray" mailto:t...@kooky.org>>
Cc: voiceops@voiceops.org<mailto:voiceops@voiceops.org>
Sent: Monday, June 14, 2021 4:53:27 PM
Subject: RE: Call Quality
Working for a conferencing company, we hear all about this.

You’d think that acoustic echo cancellation was settled science, and you’d be 
wrong. There are so many bad quality speakerphones and conference phones.

Further, so many software engineers (yes, you Google!) think they have some 
special insight. Their stuff is just as bad as others. Worse because it can be 
variable.

Bottom line is, if you must hear and be heard well…when it really matters….use 
a headset.

Michael Graves
mgra...@mstvp.com<mailto:mgra...@mstvp.com>
o: (713) 861-4005
c: (713) 201-1262
sip:mgra...@mjg.onsip.com

From: VoiceOps 
mailto:voiceops-boun...@voiceops.org>> On Behalf 
Of Mike Hammett
Sent: Monday, June 14, 2021 4:46 PM
To: Tim Bray mailto:t...@kooky.org>>
Cc: voiceops@voiceops.org<mailto:voiceops@voiceops.org>
Subject: Re: [VoiceOps] Call Quality

God, I hope customers don't hold their carriers responsible for inappropriate 
use of speakerphones.


Yes, I'm sure the complaints received for the above are non-null. That's how 
much faith I have in customers.


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com



Midwest Internet Exchange
http://www.midwest-ix.com



From: "Tim Bray via VoiceOps" 
mailto:voiceops@voiceops.org>>
To: voiceops@voiceops.org<mailto:voiceops@voiceops.org>
Sent: Monday, June 14, 2021 4:36:55 PM
Subject: Re: [VoiceOps] Call Quality

On 14/06/2021 22:25, Mike Hammett wrote:
> One of the concerns I heard was echo. On a purely digital call, what
> would be the cause of echo?

Echo, as in hearing yourself coming back with a delay?

Sound flying from the speaker to the microphone at the far end. Dodgy
speaker phone, poor plastic design of the phone, DSP not doing echo
cancellation.   Or too much end to end latency - if it is quick enough,
you don't notice.  Could be loads of things.




Quite often with third party USB  or bluetooth `speaker phones`



--
Tim Bray
Huddersfield, GB
t...@kooky.org<mailto:t...@kooky.org>

___
VoiceOps mailing list
VoiceOps@voiceops.org<mailto:VoiceOps@voiceops.org>
https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops


___
VoiceOps mailing list
VoiceOps@voiceops.org
https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops

Re: [VoiceOps] Call Quality

[Mike Hammett]

*nods* When in the home office, I use my podcasting setup (headphones, 
dedicated mic, ran through some software to clean up a bit more.) 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 
http://www.ics-il.com 



Midwest Internet Exchange 
http://www.midwest-ix.com 



- Original Message -

From: "mgraves mstvp.com"  
To: "Mike Hammett" , "Tim Bray"  
Cc: voiceops@voiceops.org 
Sent: Monday, June 14, 2021 4:53:27 PM 
Subject: RE: Call Quality 



Working for a conferencing company, we hear all about this. 

You’d think that acoustic echo cancellation was settled science, and you’d be 
wrong. There are so many bad quality speakerphones and conference phones. 

Further, so many software engineers (yes, you Google!) think they have some 
special insight. Their stuff is just as bad as others. Worse because it can be 
variable. 

Bottom line is, if you must hear and be heard well…when it really matters….use 
a headset. 


Michael Graves 
mgra...@mstvp.com 
o: (713) 861-4005 
c: (713) 201-1262 
sip:mgra...@mjg.onsip.com 



From: VoiceOps  On Behalf Of Mike Hammett 
Sent: Monday, June 14, 2021 4:46 PM 
To: Tim Bray  
Cc: voiceops@voiceops.org 
Subject: Re: [VoiceOps] Call Quality 


God, I hope customers don't hold their carriers responsible for inappropriate 
use of speakerphones. 





Yes, I'm sure the complaints received for the above are non-null. That's how 
much faith I have in customers. 



- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 
http://www.ics-il.com 



Midwest Internet Exchange 
http://www.midwest-ix.com 




- Original Message -


From: "Tim Bray via VoiceOps" < voiceops@voiceops.org > 
To: voiceops@voiceops.org 
Sent: Monday, June 14, 2021 4:36:55 PM 
Subject: Re: [VoiceOps] Call Quality 

On 14/06/2021 22:25, Mike Hammett wrote: 
> One of the concerns I heard was echo. On a purely digital call, what 
> would be the cause of echo? 

Echo, as in hearing yourself coming back with a delay? 

Sound flying from the speaker to the microphone at the far end. Dodgy 
speaker phone, poor plastic design of the phone, DSP not doing echo 
cancellation. Or too much end to end latency - if it is quick enough, 
you don't notice. Could be loads of things. 




Quite often with third party USB or bluetooth `speaker phones` 



-- 
Tim Bray 
Huddersfield, GB 
t...@kooky.org 

___ 
VoiceOps mailing list 
VoiceOps@voiceops.org 
https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops 

___
VoiceOps mailing list
VoiceOps@voiceops.org
https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops

Re: [VoiceOps] Call Quality

[mgraves mstvp . com]

Working for a conferencing company, we hear all about this.

You’d think that acoustic echo cancellation was settled science, and you’d be 
wrong. There are so many bad quality speakerphones and conference phones.

Further, so many software engineers (yes, you Google!) think they have some 
special insight. Their stuff is just as bad as others. Worse because it can be 
variable.

Bottom line is, if you must hear and be heard well…when it really matters….use 
a headset.

Michael Graves
mgra...@mstvp.com<mailto:mgra...@mstvp.com>
o: (713) 861-4005
c: (713) 201-1262
sip:mgra...@mjg.onsip.com

From: VoiceOps  On Behalf Of Mike Hammett
Sent: Monday, June 14, 2021 4:46 PM
To: Tim Bray 
Cc: voiceops@voiceops.org
Subject: Re: [VoiceOps] Call Quality

God, I hope customers don't hold their carriers responsible for inappropriate 
use of speakerphones.


Yes, I'm sure the complaints received for the above are non-null. That's how 
much faith I have in customers.


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com



Midwest Internet Exchange
http://www.midwest-ix.com




From: "Tim Bray via VoiceOps" 
mailto:voiceops@voiceops.org>>
To: voiceops@voiceops.org<mailto:voiceops@voiceops.org>
Sent: Monday, June 14, 2021 4:36:55 PM
Subject: Re: [VoiceOps] Call Quality

On 14/06/2021 22:25, Mike Hammett wrote:
> One of the concerns I heard was echo. On a purely digital call, what
> would be the cause of echo?

Echo, as in hearing yourself coming back with a delay?

Sound flying from the speaker to the microphone at the far end. Dodgy
speaker phone, poor plastic design of the phone, DSP not doing echo
cancellation.   Or too much end to end latency - if it is quick enough,
you don't notice.  Could be loads of things.




Quite often with third party USB  or bluetooth `speaker phones`



--
Tim Bray
Huddersfield, GB
t...@kooky.org<mailto:t...@kooky.org>

___
VoiceOps mailing list
VoiceOps@voiceops.org<mailto:VoiceOps@voiceops.org>
https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops

___
VoiceOps mailing list
VoiceOps@voiceops.org
https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops

Re: [VoiceOps] Call Quality

[Carlos Alvarez]

Oh, they absolutely do TRY to.  And junk equipment.

Last week a site-level manager for a customer tried to tell us we were
responsible for and needed to do something about the 15-20 robocalls per
day they were getting.  My first answer was, wait, ONLY 15-20??  (Number is
SEO and so easily scraped.)


On Mon, Jun 14, 2021 at 2:49 PM Mike Hammett  wrote:

> God, I hope customers don't hold their carriers responsible for
> inappropriate use of speakerphones.
>
>
> Yes, I'm sure the complaints received for the above are non-null. That's
> how much faith I have in customers.
>
>
>
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions
> http://www.ics-il.com
>
>
>
> Midwest Internet Exchange
> http://www.midwest-ix.com
>
>
>
> --
> *From: *"Tim Bray via VoiceOps" 
> *To: *voiceops@voiceops.org
> *Sent: *Monday, June 14, 2021 4:36:55 PM
> *Subject: *Re: [VoiceOps] Call Quality
>
> On 14/06/2021 22:25, Mike Hammett wrote:
> > One of the concerns I heard was echo. On a purely digital call, what
> > would be the cause of echo?
>
> Echo, as in hearing yourself coming back with a delay?
>
> Sound flying from the speaker to the microphone at the far end. Dodgy
> speaker phone, poor plastic design of the phone, DSP not doing echo
> cancellation.   Or too much end to end latency - if it is quick enough,
> you don't notice.  Could be loads of things.
>
>
>
>
> Quite often with third party USB  or bluetooth `speaker phones`
>
>
>
> --
> Tim Bray
> Huddersfield, GB
> t...@kooky.org
>
> ___
> VoiceOps mailing list
> VoiceOps@voiceops.org
> https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
>
> ___
> VoiceOps mailing list
> VoiceOps@voiceops.org
> https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
>
___
VoiceOps mailing list
VoiceOps@voiceops.org
https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops

Re: [VoiceOps] Call Quality

[Carlos Alvarez]

It's not an issue other than what others said; junk analog gear and/or
people doing dumb things.  Another one I found was call center people who
don't want to mess up their hair, and wear a headset with the band around
the neck, earpiece angled off the back of the earlobe.  They turn up the
volume to full to be able to hear, and the speaker has a direct line to the
microphone hanging 4" away from their face.


On Mon, Jun 14, 2021 at 2:45 PM Mike Hammett  wrote:

> I can't say I've experienced it, no.
>
> It was just something a potential customer told me they were concerned
> with.
>
>
>
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions
> http://www.ics-il.com
>
>
>
> Midwest Internet Exchange
> http://www.midwest-ix.com
>
>
>
> --
> *From: *"Carlos Alvarez" 
> *To: *voiceops@voiceops.org
> *Sent: *Monday, June 14, 2021 4:37:38 PM
> *Subject: *Re: [VoiceOps] Call Quality
>
> So are you saying that you've experienced echo on a fully VoIP call?  IP
> handset to IP handset, without some sort of analog interface other than in
> the handsets?
>
> I can't recall the last echo complaint we've had.
>
>
> On Mon, Jun 14, 2021 at 2:35 PM Mike Hammett  wrote:
>
>> Well right.
>>
>> The analog portions of most calls are extremely small anymore (speaker to
>> ear and mouth to microphone).
>>
>>
>>
>> -
>> Mike Hammett
>> Intelligent Computing Solutions
>> http://www.ics-il.com
>>
>>
>>
>> Midwest Internet Exchange
>> http://www.midwest-ix.com
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> *From: *"Carlos Alvarez" 
>> *To: *voiceops@voiceops.org
>> *Sent: *Monday, June 14, 2021 4:31:07 PM
>> *Subject: *Re: [VoiceOps] Call Quality
>>
>> Well, no call is purely digital, the endpoints are still analog, as is
>> the meatbag behind the handset.  I can't imagine any way you can create
>> echo in the digital portions.  But a mismatch in impedance on an ATA or
>> similar device would be a common old problem I've faced.
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Jun 14, 2021 at 2:28 PM Mike Hammett  wrote:
>>
>>> One of the concerns I heard was echo. On a purely digital call, what
>>> would be the cause of echo?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -
>>> Mike Hammett
>>> Intelligent Computing Solutions
>>> http://www.ics-il.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Midwest Internet Exchange
>>> http://www.midwest-ix.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> *From: *"Mike Hammett" 
>>> *To: *"VoiceOps" 
>>> *Sent: *Sunday, June 13, 2021 1:11:30 PM
>>> *Subject: *[VoiceOps] Call Quality
>>>
>>> I've heard a variety of complaints and concerns over the years about
>>> call quality. How are these quality issues introduced? As long as pipes and
>>> equipment aren't overloaded, where is a quality issue to come from?
>>>
>>>
>>> Obviously, the closer you are to the handsets, the less opportunity
>>> there is for issues. What else is there to take into account?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -
>>> Mike Hammett
>>> Intelligent Computing Solutions
>>> http://www.ics-il.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Midwest Internet Exchange
>>> http://www.midwest-ix.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ___
>>> VoiceOps mailing list
>>> VoiceOps@voiceops.org
>>> https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
>>>
>>> ___
>>> VoiceOps mailing list
>>> VoiceOps@voiceops.org
>>> https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
>>>
>>
>> ___
>> VoiceOps mailing list
>> VoiceOps@voiceops.org
>> https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
>>
>>
> ___
> VoiceOps mailing list
> VoiceOps@voiceops.org
> https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
>
>
___
VoiceOps mailing list
VoiceOps@voiceops.org
https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops

Re: [VoiceOps] Call Quality

[Mike Hammett]

God, I hope customers don't hold their carriers responsible for inappropriate 
use of speakerphones. 




Yes, I'm sure the complaints received for the above are non-null. That's how 
much faith I have in customers. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 
http://www.ics-il.com 



Midwest Internet Exchange 
http://www.midwest-ix.com 



- Original Message -

From: "Tim Bray via VoiceOps"  
To: voiceops@voiceops.org 
Sent: Monday, June 14, 2021 4:36:55 PM 
Subject: Re: [VoiceOps] Call Quality 

On 14/06/2021 22:25, Mike Hammett wrote: 
> One of the concerns I heard was echo. On a purely digital call, what 
> would be the cause of echo? 

Echo, as in hearing yourself coming back with a delay? 

Sound flying from the speaker to the microphone at the far end. Dodgy 
speaker phone, poor plastic design of the phone, DSP not doing echo 
cancellation. Or too much end to end latency - if it is quick enough, 
you don't notice. Could be loads of things. 




Quite often with third party USB or bluetooth `speaker phones` 



-- 
Tim Bray 
Huddersfield, GB 
t...@kooky.org 

___ 
VoiceOps mailing list 
VoiceOps@voiceops.org 
https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops 

___
VoiceOps mailing list
VoiceOps@voiceops.org
https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops

Re: [VoiceOps] Call Quality

[Mike Hammett]

I can't say I've experienced it, no. 

It was just something a potential customer told me they were concerned with. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 
http://www.ics-il.com 



Midwest Internet Exchange 
http://www.midwest-ix.com 



- Original Message -

From: "Carlos Alvarez"  
To: voiceops@voiceops.org 
Sent: Monday, June 14, 2021 4:37:38 PM 
Subject: Re: [VoiceOps] Call Quality 


So are you saying that you've experienced echo on a fully VoIP call? IP handset 
to IP handset, without some sort of analog interface other than in the 
handsets? 


I can't recall the last echo complaint we've had. 




On Mon, Jun 14, 2021 at 2:35 PM Mike Hammett < voice...@ics-il.net > wrote: 




Well right. 

The analog portions of most calls are extremely small anymore (speaker to ear 
and mouth to microphone). 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 
http://www.ics-il.com 



Midwest Internet Exchange 
http://www.midwest-ix.com 





From: "Carlos Alvarez" < caalva...@gmail.com > 
To: voiceops@voiceops.org 
Sent: Monday, June 14, 2021 4:31:07 PM 
Subject: Re: [VoiceOps] Call Quality 


Well, no call is purely digital, the endpoints are still analog, as is the 
meatbag behind the handset. I can't imagine any way you can create echo in the 
digital portions. But a mismatch in impedance on an ATA or similar device would 
be a common old problem I've faced. 




On Mon, Jun 14, 2021 at 2:28 PM Mike Hammett < voice...@ics-il.net > wrote: 




One of the concerns I heard was echo. On a purely digital call, what would be 
the cause of echo? 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 
http://www.ics-il.com 



Midwest Internet Exchange 
http://www.midwest-ix.com 





From: "Mike Hammett" < voice...@ics-il.net > 
To: "VoiceOps" < voiceops@voiceops.org > 
Sent: Sunday, June 13, 2021 1:11:30 PM 
Subject: [VoiceOps] Call Quality 


I've heard a variety of complaints and concerns over the years about call 
quality. How are these quality issues introduced? As long as pipes and 
equipment aren't overloaded, where is a quality issue to come from? 




Obviously, the closer you are to the handsets, the less opportunity there is 
for issues. What else is there to take into account? 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 
http://www.ics-il.com 



Midwest Internet Exchange 
http://www.midwest-ix.com 




___ 
VoiceOps mailing list 
VoiceOps@voiceops.org 
https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops 

___ 
VoiceOps mailing list 
VoiceOps@voiceops.org 
https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops 



___ 
VoiceOps mailing list 
VoiceOps@voiceops.org 
https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops 




___ 
VoiceOps mailing list 
VoiceOps@voiceops.org 
https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops 

___
VoiceOps mailing list
VoiceOps@voiceops.org
https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops

Re: [VoiceOps] Call Quality

[Chris Boyd]

I regularly hear echo on Teams calls when there is a person is not using a 
headset and the reflection off the walls of the room are outside what the ECX 
software on the computer can cope with.

> On Jun 14, 2021, at 4:35 PM, Mike Hammett  wrote:
> 
> Well right.
> 
> The analog portions of most calls are extremely small anymore (speaker to ear 
> and mouth to microphone).
> 
> 
> 
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions
> http://www.ics-il.com
> 
> 
> 
> Midwest Internet Exchange
> http://www.midwest-ix.com
> 
> 
> 
> From: "Carlos Alvarez" 
> To: voiceops@voiceops.org
> Sent: Monday, June 14, 2021 4:31:07 PM
> Subject: Re: [VoiceOps] Call Quality
> 
> Well, no call is purely digital, the endpoints are still analog, as is the 
> meatbag behind the handset.  I can't imagine any way you can create echo in 
> the digital portions.  But a mismatch in impedance on an ATA or similar 
> device would be a common old problem I've faced.
> 
> 
> On Mon, Jun 14, 2021 at 2:28 PM Mike Hammett  wrote:
> One of the concerns I heard was echo. On a purely digital call, what would be 
> the cause of echo?
> 
> 
> 
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions
> http://www.ics-il.com
> 
> 
> 
> Midwest Internet Exchange
> http://www.midwest-ix.com
> 
> 
> 
> From: "Mike Hammett" 
> To: "VoiceOps" 
> Sent: Sunday, June 13, 2021 1:11:30 PM
> Subject: [VoiceOps] Call Quality
> 
> I've heard a variety of complaints and concerns over the years about call 
> quality. How are these quality issues introduced? As long as pipes and 
> equipment aren't overloaded, where is a quality issue to come from?
> 
> 
> Obviously, the closer you are to the handsets, the less opportunity there is 
> for issues. What else is there to take into account?
> 
> 
> 
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions
> http://www.ics-il.com
> 
> 
> 
> Midwest Internet Exchange
> http://www.midwest-ix.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ___
> VoiceOps mailing list
> VoiceOps@voiceops.org
> https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
> 
> ___
> VoiceOps mailing list
> VoiceOps@voiceops.org
> https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
> 
> ___
> VoiceOps mailing list
> VoiceOps@voiceops.org
> https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
> 
> ___
> VoiceOps mailing list
> VoiceOps@voiceops.org
> https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops

___
VoiceOps mailing list
VoiceOps@voiceops.org
https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops

Re: [VoiceOps] Call Quality

[Tim Bray via VoiceOps]

On 14/06/2021 22:25, Mike Hammett wrote:
One of the concerns I heard was echo. On a purely digital call, what 
would be the cause of echo?


Echo, as in hearing yourself coming back with a delay?

Sound flying from the speaker to the microphone at the far end. Dodgy 
speaker phone, poor plastic design of the phone, DSP not doing echo 
cancellation.   Or too much end to end latency - if it is quick enough, 
you don't notice.  Could be loads of things.





Quite often with third party USB  or bluetooth `speaker phones`



--
Tim Bray
Huddersfield, GB
t...@kooky.org

___
VoiceOps mailing list
VoiceOps@voiceops.org
https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops

Re: [VoiceOps] Call Quality

[Carlos Alvarez]

So are you saying that you've experienced echo on a fully VoIP call?  IP
handset to IP handset, without some sort of analog interface other than in
the handsets?

I can't recall the last echo complaint we've had.


On Mon, Jun 14, 2021 at 2:35 PM Mike Hammett  wrote:

> Well right.
>
> The analog portions of most calls are extremely small anymore (speaker to
> ear and mouth to microphone).
>
>
>
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions
> http://www.ics-il.com
>
>
>
> Midwest Internet Exchange
> http://www.midwest-ix.com
>
>
>
> --
> *From: *"Carlos Alvarez" 
> *To: *voiceops@voiceops.org
> *Sent: *Monday, June 14, 2021 4:31:07 PM
> *Subject: *Re: [VoiceOps] Call Quality
>
> Well, no call is purely digital, the endpoints are still analog, as is the
> meatbag behind the handset.  I can't imagine any way you can create echo in
> the digital portions.  But a mismatch in impedance on an ATA or similar
> device would be a common old problem I've faced.
>
>
> On Mon, Jun 14, 2021 at 2:28 PM Mike Hammett  wrote:
>
>> One of the concerns I heard was echo. On a purely digital call, what
>> would be the cause of echo?
>>
>>
>>
>> -
>> Mike Hammett
>> Intelligent Computing Solutions
>> http://www.ics-il.com
>>
>>
>>
>> Midwest Internet Exchange
>> http://www.midwest-ix.com
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> *From: *"Mike Hammett" 
>> *To: *"VoiceOps" 
>> *Sent: *Sunday, June 13, 2021 1:11:30 PM
>> *Subject: *[VoiceOps] Call Quality
>>
>> I've heard a variety of complaints and concerns over the years about call
>> quality. How are these quality issues introduced? As long as pipes and
>> equipment aren't overloaded, where is a quality issue to come from?
>>
>>
>> Obviously, the closer you are to the handsets, the less opportunity there
>> is for issues. What else is there to take into account?
>>
>>
>>
>> -
>> Mike Hammett
>> Intelligent Computing Solutions
>> http://www.ics-il.com
>>
>>
>>
>> Midwest Internet Exchange
>> http://www.midwest-ix.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ___
>> VoiceOps mailing list
>> VoiceOps@voiceops.org
>> https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
>>
>> ___
>> VoiceOps mailing list
>> VoiceOps@voiceops.org
>> https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
>>
>
> ___
> VoiceOps mailing list
> VoiceOps@voiceops.org
> https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
>
>
___
VoiceOps mailing list
VoiceOps@voiceops.org
https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops

Re: [VoiceOps] Call Quality

[Mike Hammett]

Well right. 

The analog portions of most calls are extremely small anymore (speaker to ear 
and mouth to microphone). 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 
http://www.ics-il.com 



Midwest Internet Exchange 
http://www.midwest-ix.com 



- Original Message -

From: "Carlos Alvarez"  
To: voiceops@voiceops.org 
Sent: Monday, June 14, 2021 4:31:07 PM 
Subject: Re: [VoiceOps] Call Quality 


Well, no call is purely digital, the endpoints are still analog, as is the 
meatbag behind the handset. I can't imagine any way you can create echo in the 
digital portions. But a mismatch in impedance on an ATA or similar device would 
be a common old problem I've faced. 




On Mon, Jun 14, 2021 at 2:28 PM Mike Hammett < voice...@ics-il.net > wrote: 




One of the concerns I heard was echo. On a purely digital call, what would be 
the cause of echo? 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 
http://www.ics-il.com 



Midwest Internet Exchange 
http://www.midwest-ix.com 





From: "Mike Hammett" < voice...@ics-il.net > 
To: "VoiceOps" < voiceops@voiceops.org > 
Sent: Sunday, June 13, 2021 1:11:30 PM 
Subject: [VoiceOps] Call Quality 


I've heard a variety of complaints and concerns over the years about call 
quality. How are these quality issues introduced? As long as pipes and 
equipment aren't overloaded, where is a quality issue to come from? 




Obviously, the closer you are to the handsets, the less opportunity there is 
for issues. What else is there to take into account? 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 
http://www.ics-il.com 



Midwest Internet Exchange 
http://www.midwest-ix.com 




___ 
VoiceOps mailing list 
VoiceOps@voiceops.org 
https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops 

___ 
VoiceOps mailing list 
VoiceOps@voiceops.org 
https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops 



___ 
VoiceOps mailing list 
VoiceOps@voiceops.org 
https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops 

___
VoiceOps mailing list
VoiceOps@voiceops.org
https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops

Re: [VoiceOps] Call Quality

[Carlos Alvarez]

Well, no call is purely digital, the endpoints are still analog, as is the
meatbag behind the handset.  I can't imagine any way you can create echo in
the digital portions.  But a mismatch in impedance on an ATA or similar
device would be a common old problem I've faced.


On Mon, Jun 14, 2021 at 2:28 PM Mike Hammett  wrote:

> One of the concerns I heard was echo. On a purely digital call, what would
> be the cause of echo?
>
>
>
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions
> http://www.ics-il.com
>
>
>
> Midwest Internet Exchange
> http://www.midwest-ix.com
>
>
>
> --
> *From: *"Mike Hammett" 
> *To: *"VoiceOps" 
> *Sent: *Sunday, June 13, 2021 1:11:30 PM
> *Subject: *[VoiceOps] Call Quality
>
> I've heard a variety of complaints and concerns over the years about call
> quality. How are these quality issues introduced? As long as pipes and
> equipment aren't overloaded, where is a quality issue to come from?
>
>
> Obviously, the closer you are to the handsets, the less opportunity there
> is for issues. What else is there to take into account?
>
>
>
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions
> http://www.ics-il.com
>
>
>
> Midwest Internet Exchange
> http://www.midwest-ix.com
>
>
>
>
> ___
> VoiceOps mailing list
> VoiceOps@voiceops.org
> https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
>
> ___
> VoiceOps mailing list
> VoiceOps@voiceops.org
> https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
>
___
VoiceOps mailing list
VoiceOps@voiceops.org
https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops

Re: [VoiceOps] Call Quality

[Mike Hammett]

One of the concerns I heard was echo. On a purely digital call, what would be 
the cause of echo? 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 
http://www.ics-il.com 



Midwest Internet Exchange 
http://www.midwest-ix.com 



- Original Message -

From: "Mike Hammett"  
To: "VoiceOps"  
Sent: Sunday, June 13, 2021 1:11:30 PM 
Subject: [VoiceOps] Call Quality 


I've heard a variety of complaints and concerns over the years about call 
quality. How are these quality issues introduced? As long as pipes and 
equipment aren't overloaded, where is a quality issue to come from? 




Obviously, the closer you are to the handsets, the less opportunity there is 
for issues. What else is there to take into account? 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 
http://www.ics-il.com 



Midwest Internet Exchange 
http://www.midwest-ix.com 




___ 
VoiceOps mailing list 
VoiceOps@voiceops.org 
https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops 

___
VoiceOps mailing list
VoiceOps@voiceops.org
https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops

Re: [VoiceOps] Call Quality

[Richard Jobson]

Transcoding is something that’s not been mentioned here yet. Especially with 
the growth of Microsoft Teams using Silk audio codec driving wideband telephony 
and all voice arriving from a wireless network needs to be transcoded before 
going to the PSTN which is clamped at G.711 narrowband.

Packet loss & jitter (and latency which is not part of normal voice clarity 
measurements) cause poor voice quality as perceived by the user. Maybe they 
don’t have QoS set for voice on their LAN/ customer premises, or likely gets 
stripped off as it comes in over ISP/access link/last Mile.

Congestion, CPU utilization, audio set up (microphone etc.)  and other 
impairments introduced by the desktop/PC/Softphone (transmitting & receiving) 
will also impact call quality

+ anything processing audio in the network such as a transcoder.

The “MOS” value you typically see from a packet monitoring system is derived 
from R factor and only takes into account packet loss and jitter. But the user 
experience is based on the AUDIO they receive. the only MOS measurement to 
quantify this is AUDIO MOS or PESQ/POLQA MOS and involves transmitting an audio 
file across the network and comparing it with its reference.

if you're concerned about customs complaining poor UX, record a small sample of 
their audio coming from them (with their permission of course, usual waivers 
etc.] and send it back to them as a pcap, so they can listen to it for 
themselves. If you need any help decoding anything other than G.711 in 
Wireshark, let us know.

Many Thanks & Best Regards,

Richard Jobson
Teraquant Corporation
ph: 719 488 1003
d/l: (719) 766-8523
www.teraquant.com<http://www.teraquant.com/>
rich...@teraquant.com
https://www.linkedin.com/in/uc-expert-monitoring/

Network Monitoring and Service Assurance - Speech Quality Experts (PESQ/POLQA) 
and Active Testing - Reporting – HPBX - Session Border Controllers – SDN and 
SD-WAN - Big Data Analytics and fraud detection and protection.

--
NOTICE: This electronic mail transmission may contain confidential information 
and is intended only for the person(s) named. Any use, copying, or disclosure 
by any other person is strictly prohibited. If you have received this 
transmission in error, please notify the sender via e-mail.


From: VoiceOps  on behalf of Tim Bray via 
VoiceOps 
Reply-To: Tim Bray 
Date: Monday, June 14, 2021 at 3:23 AM
To: Mike Hammett , 
Subject: Re: [VoiceOps] Call Quality


Hi,



It depends on your definition of pipes not too overloaded.   And I'm presuming 
from mention of pipes that you mean network induced call quality problems.



Usually bufferbloat.   Routers with too much memory cause a lot of latency at 
the point of a fast to slow transition in the network.





And this can be caused by anything from a crappy DSL router on upstream, and 
somebody emails a large attachment during a call.   Or it can be something like 
a unsupported 100meg optic on the customer side of a juniper edge router on a 
10gig core.Customer does a download, latency goes nuts and all the phone 
calls sound naff.



Tools to test.

fast.com and press the `Show more info` button.   Forget the bandwidth figures, 
and look at the difference between the loaded and unloaded latency.  If a big 
difference, you have a problem.





http://www.dslreports.com/speedtest  This will give a bufferbloat score.  Then 
look at the results, and scroll down a bit and it will show you upload and 
download latency figures for idle, downloading and uploading.(This is one 
of the most amazing tools, and I'd love a way to pay them some money each month 
to support the service.  They were struggling a bit at some stage.)







Tim




On 13/06/2021 19:11, Mike Hammett wrote:
I've heard a variety of complaints and concerns over the years about call 
quality. How are these quality issues introduced? As long as pipes and 
equipment aren't overloaded, where is a quality issue to come from?


Obviously, the closer you are to the handsets, the less opportunity there is 
for issues. What else is there to take into account?


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com



Midwest Internet Exchange
http://www.midwest-ix.com






___

VoiceOps mailing list

VoiceOps@voiceops.org<mailto:VoiceOps@voiceops.org>

https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
___ VoiceOps mailing list 
VoiceOps@voiceops.org https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
___
VoiceOps mailing list
VoiceOps@voiceops.org
https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops

Re: [VoiceOps] Call Quality

[Alex Balashov]

Yeah, there's so many moving parts to the voice quality equation within 
the supply chain, equipment choices, and network engineering that it 
would be hard to even scratch the surface in a mailing list thread.


On 6/14/21 12:26 PM, Brandon Svec via VoiceOps wrote:

There are so many places that poor call quality can be introduced that I 
suppose someone could write a book about it :)


I do have a general sense that some voice providers, particularly the 
largest, do some "proprietary magic" for lack of a better term.  For 
example, RingCentral explains somewhere that they transmit copies of 
your voice packets on diverse paths that are monitored carefully and can 
dynamically switch to the best path during a call with little to no 
noticeable call quality changes.  I always thought that was a pretty 
novel and a good idea.  I suppose there is a similar reason that Zoom 
will tend to work fine where all else being equal another similar 
platform will not perform well.


-Brandon






On Mon, Jun 14, 2021 at 9:16 AM Mike Hammett > wrote:


I should add that my initial intent was the voice ecosystem, aside
from the end-users. For those, usually it's one of the things we all
already know.

Why would carrier A have "good quality", while carrier B didn't?


I had a conversation with a customer about quality being more
important than price. A lot of things come to mind right away (such
as diversity, latency, jitter, packet loss, etc.), but I'm looking
for what I don't know.



o


Are there just that many poorly ran companies where the low-hanging
fruit I'm brushing aside is where almost all of the problems occur?



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com 



Midwest Internet Exchange
http://www.midwest-ix.com 




*From: *"Mike Hammett" mailto:voice...@ics-il.net>>
*To: *"VoiceOps" mailto:voiceops@voiceops.org>>
*Sent: *Sunday, June 13, 2021 1:11:30 PM
*Subject: *[VoiceOps] Call Quality

I've heard a variety of complaints and concerns over the years about
call quality. How are these quality issues introduced? As long as
pipes and equipment aren't overloaded, where is a quality issue to
come from?


Obviously, the closer you are to the handsets, the less opportunity
there is for issues. What else is there to take into account?



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com 



Midwest Internet Exchange
http://www.midwest-ix.com 




___
VoiceOps mailing list
VoiceOps@voiceops.org 
https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops


___
VoiceOps mailing list
VoiceOps@voiceops.org 
https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops



___
VoiceOps mailing list
VoiceOps@voiceops.org
https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops




--
Alex Balashov | Principal | Evariste Systems LLC

Tel: +1-706-510-6800 / +1-800-250-5920 (toll-free)
Web: http://www.evaristesys.com/, http://www.csrpswitch.com/
___
VoiceOps mailing list
VoiceOps@voiceops.org
https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops

Re: [VoiceOps] Call Quality

[Brandon Svec via VoiceOps]

There are so many places that poor call quality can be introduced that I
suppose someone could write a book about it :)

I do have a general sense that some voice providers, particularly the
largest, do some "proprietary magic" for lack of a better term.  For
example, RingCentral explains somewhere that they transmit copies of your
voice packets on diverse paths that are monitored carefully and can
dynamically switch to the best path during a call with little to no
noticeable call quality changes.  I always thought that was a pretty novel
and a good idea.  I suppose there is a similar reason that Zoom will tend
to work fine where all else being equal another similar platform will not
perform well.

-Brandon






On Mon, Jun 14, 2021 at 9:16 AM Mike Hammett  wrote:

> I should add that my initial intent was the voice ecosystem, aside from
> the end-users. For those, usually it's one of the things we all already
> know.
>
> Why would carrier A have "good quality", while carrier B didn't?
>
>
> I had a conversation with a customer about quality being more important
> than price. A lot of things come to mind right away (such as diversity,
> latency, jitter, packet loss, etc.), but I'm looking for what I don't know.
>
>
>
> o
>
>
> Are there just that many poorly ran companies where the low-hanging fruit
> I'm brushing aside is where almost all of the problems occur?
>
>
>
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions
> http://www.ics-il.com
>
>
>
> Midwest Internet Exchange
> http://www.midwest-ix.com
>
>
>
> --
> *From: *"Mike Hammett" 
> *To: *"VoiceOps" 
> *Sent: *Sunday, June 13, 2021 1:11:30 PM
> *Subject: *[VoiceOps] Call Quality
>
> I've heard a variety of complaints and concerns over the years about call
> quality. How are these quality issues introduced? As long as pipes and
> equipment aren't overloaded, where is a quality issue to come from?
>
>
> Obviously, the closer you are to the handsets, the less opportunity there
> is for issues. What else is there to take into account?
>
>
>
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions
> http://www.ics-il.com
>
>
>
> Midwest Internet Exchange
> http://www.midwest-ix.com
>
>
>
>
> ___
> VoiceOps mailing list
> VoiceOps@voiceops.org
> https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
>
> ___
> VoiceOps mailing list
> VoiceOps@voiceops.org
> https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
>
___
VoiceOps mailing list
VoiceOps@voiceops.org
https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops

Re: [VoiceOps] Call Quality

[Mike Hammett]

I should add that my initial intent was the voice ecosystem, aside from the 
end-users. For those, usually it's one of the things we all already know. 


Why would carrier A have "good quality", while carrier B didn't? 




I had a conversation with a customer about quality being more important than 
price. A lot of things come to mind right away (such as diversity, latency, 
jitter, packet loss, etc.), but I'm looking for what I don't know. 






o 




Are there just that many poorly ran companies where the low-hanging fruit I'm 
brushing aside is where almost all of the problems occur? 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 
http://www.ics-il.com 



Midwest Internet Exchange 
http://www.midwest-ix.com 



- Original Message -

From: "Mike Hammett"  
To: "VoiceOps"  
Sent: Sunday, June 13, 2021 1:11:30 PM 
Subject: [VoiceOps] Call Quality 


I've heard a variety of complaints and concerns over the years about call 
quality. How are these quality issues introduced? As long as pipes and 
equipment aren't overloaded, where is a quality issue to come from? 




Obviously, the closer you are to the handsets, the less opportunity there is 
for issues. What else is there to take into account? 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 
http://www.ics-il.com 



Midwest Internet Exchange 
http://www.midwest-ix.com 




___ 
VoiceOps mailing list 
VoiceOps@voiceops.org 
https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops 

___
VoiceOps mailing list
VoiceOps@voiceops.org
https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops

Re: [VoiceOps] Call Quality

[Tim Bray via VoiceOps]

Hi,


It depends on your definition of pipes not too overloaded.   And I'm 
presuming from mention of pipes that you mean network induced call 
quality problems.



Usually bufferbloat.   Routers with too much memory cause a lot of 
latency at the point of a fast to slow transition in the network.




And this can be caused by anything from a crappy DSL router on upstream, 
and somebody emails a large attachment during a call. Or it can be 
something like a unsupported 100meg optic on the customer side of a 
juniper edge router on a 10gig core. Customer does a download, latency 
goes nuts and all the phone calls sound naff.



Tools to test.

fast.com and press the `Show more info` button.   Forget the bandwidth 
figures, and look at the difference between the loaded and unloaded 
latency.  If a big difference, you have a problem.




http://www.dslreports.com/speedtest  This will give a bufferbloat 
score.  Then look at the results, and scroll down a bit and it will show 
you upload and download latency figures for idle, downloading and 
uploading.    (This is one of the most amazing tools, and I'd love a way 
to pay them some money each month to support the service.  They were 
struggling a bit at some stage.)





Tim



On 13/06/2021 19:11, Mike Hammett wrote:
I've heard a variety of complaints and concerns over the years about 
call quality. How are these quality issues introduced? As long as 
pipes and equipment aren't overloaded, where is a quality issue to 
come from?



Obviously, the closer you are to the handsets, the less opportunity 
there is for issues. What else is there to take into account?




-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com



Midwest Internet Exchange
http://www.midwest-ix.com




___
VoiceOps mailing list
VoiceOps@voiceops.org
https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
___
VoiceOps mailing list
VoiceOps@voiceops.org
https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops

Re: [VoiceOps] Call Quality

[Pete Mundy]

Not sure how useful it is Mike, but thought of a couple of examples:

Dropped packets
(eg from radio interfaces)

NAT
(eg one-way audio caused by broken ALGs, or lost signalling due to 
state table timeouts)

Pete


> On 14/06/2021, at 6:11 AM, Mike Hammett  wrote:
> 
> I've heard a variety of complaints and concerns over the years about call 
> quality. How are these quality issues introduced? As long as pipes and 
> equipment aren't overloaded, where is a quality issue to come from?
> 
> 
> Obviously, the closer you are to the handsets, the less opportunity there is 
> for issues. What else is there to take into account?

___
VoiceOps mailing list
VoiceOps@voiceops.org
https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops

Re: [VoiceOps] Call Quality Scoring?

[Richard Jobson]

So is it safe to assume the access line is POTS/analog? If so, you have POTS 
from local Malaysian LEC to your network? Are you Connecting to your network 
via a SIP trunk? If so, you can capture the IP packets where it enters your 
network using Wireshark (or any other tool which captures RTP eg 
Palladion/OCOM) and listen to the file. Obtaining a PESQ score on your audio is 
not recommended but your subjective assessment will identify perhaps pkt loss 
versus noise on the analog POTS line.

A pkt capture monitoring  tool will only measure pkt loss & jitter . so if the 
impairment is being introduced on the Malaysian LEC IP network, you will 
measure it. But if it is a problem with the analog access line, you’ll need an 
audio layer measurement such as PESQ.

PESQ is an active intrusive test and involves sending a very clean audio file 
into the system under test (ie network ) and receiving at other end and 
comparing that with the original signal using a proprietary software algorithm 
(PESQ). This can be automated with something like Malden . and in the case of 
Malden, measured accurately. This will give you a number. Ie a MOS number which 
you can communicate to the Malaysian LEC and show them how bad it is in 
quantitative terms and also ow often/time of day etc. Malden will also give you 
analysis on the cause of the problem

Lets know if we can be of further help

Thanks

Richard Jobson
Teraquant Corporation
ph: 719 488 1003 ext 101
www.teraquant.com
i...@teraquant.com




On 7/11/16, 4:05 PM, "VoiceOps on behalf of jungle Boogie" 
 wrote:

On 11 July 2016 at 13:38,   wrote:
> This may be a silly question.is there any way that I can get a MOS or
> PESQ score for a call?

See this blog:
https://txlab.wordpress.com/2015/06/02/quality-assurance-for-voip-calls-2/

And this:
http://voxserv.ch/demolab.html


>
> I have an access line in Malaysia that's really quite bad quality. The
> provider says it "sounds fine to them."
>
> I'd like to have some empirical evidence that it's bad. I've setup an
> automated system to answer the line a play a known recording. Now I just
> need some way to take a measurement.
>
> Any ideas?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Michael Graves
> mgra...@mstvp.com
> http://www.mgraves.org
> o(713) 861-4005
> c(713) 201-1262
> sip:mgra...@mjg.onsip.com
> skype mjgraves
>



-- 
---
inum: 883510009027723
sip: jungleboo...@sip2sip.info
___
VoiceOps mailing list
VoiceOps@voiceops.org
https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops



___
VoiceOps mailing list
VoiceOps@voiceops.org
https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops

Re: [VoiceOps] Call Quality Scoring?

[jungle Boogie]

On 11 July 2016 at 13:38,   wrote:
> This may be a silly question.is there any way that I can get a MOS or
> PESQ score for a call?

See this blog:
https://txlab.wordpress.com/2015/06/02/quality-assurance-for-voip-calls-2/

And this:
http://voxserv.ch/demolab.html


>
> I have an access line in Malaysia that's really quite bad quality. The
> provider says it "sounds fine to them."
>
> I'd like to have some empirical evidence that it's bad. I've setup an
> automated system to answer the line a play a known recording. Now I just
> need some way to take a measurement.
>
> Any ideas?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Michael Graves
> mgra...@mstvp.com
> http://www.mgraves.org
> o(713) 861-4005
> c(713) 201-1262
> sip:mgra...@mjg.onsip.com
> skype mjgraves
>



-- 
---
inum: 883510009027723
sip: jungleboo...@sip2sip.info
___
VoiceOps mailing list
VoiceOps@voiceops.org
https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops

Re: [VoiceOps] Call Quality Scoring?

[Aviv Shaham]

Try AQuA: http://sevana.biz/products/aqua/
 
Aviv
 
 
On Mon, Jul 11, 2016, at 01:38 PM, mgra...@mstvp.com wrote:
> This may be a silly question.is there any way that I can get a MOS
> or PESQ score for a call?
>
> I have an access line in Malaysia that's really quite bad quality. The
> provider says it "sounds fine to them."
>
> I'd like to have some empirical evidence that it's bad. I've setup an
> automated system to answer the line a play a known recording. Now I
> just need some way to take a measurement.
>
> Any ideas?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Michael Graves mgra...@mstvp.com
> http://www.mgraves.org
> o(713) 861-4005
>  c(713) 201-1262 sip:mgra...@mjg.onsip.com skype mjgraves
> _
> VoiceOps mailing list
> VoiceOps@voiceops.org
> https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
___
VoiceOps mailing list
VoiceOps@voiceops.org
https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops

Re: [VoiceOps] Call Quality Scoring?

[Joseph Jackson]

If it’s a VOIP call you can grab stats from it using a number of different 
products.

From: VoiceOps [mailto:voiceops-boun...@voiceops.org] On Behalf Of 
mgra...@mstvp.com
Sent: Monday, July 11, 2016 3:38 PM
To: voiceops@voiceops.org
Subject: [VoiceOps] Call Quality Scoring?

This may be a silly question.is there any way that I can get a MOS or PESQ 
score for a call?

I have an access line in Malaysia that's really quite bad quality. The provider 
says it "sounds fine to them."

I'd like to have some empirical evidence that it's bad. I've setup an automated 
system to answer the line a play a known recording. Now I just need some way to 
take a measurement.

Any ideas?

Thanks,

Michael Graves
mgra...@mstvp.com
http://www.mgraves.org
o(713) 861-4005
c(713) 201-1262
sip:mgra...@mjg.onsip.com
skype mjgraves
___
VoiceOps mailing list
VoiceOps@voiceops.org
https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops

Re: [VoiceOps] Call Quality issues?

[jungle Boogie]

Hello,
On 3 November 2014 23:23, Aryn Nakaoka 808.356.2901
anaka...@trinet-hi.com wrote:
 It'll be interesting now that L3 and TWTC are one.

 http://investors.level3.com/investor-relations/presentations-and-events/default.aspx



I thought this had already happened based on this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TW_Telecom
On June 16, 2014, Level 3 Communications Inc. agreed to buy TW Telecom
for about $5.7 billion in cash and stock.

But now it is official.


 Aryn H. K. Nakaoka
 anaka...@trinet-hi.com

 Direct: 808.356.2901
 Fax : 808.356.2919


-- 
---
inum: 883510009027723
sip: jungleboo...@sip2sip.info
xmpp: jungle-boo...@jit.si
___
VoiceOps mailing list
VoiceOps@voiceops.org
https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops

Re: [VoiceOps] Call Quality issues?

[Aryn Nakaoka 808.356.2901]

Our TW Telecom rep changed email accounts today to level3.com .

I wonder when the networks will merge or if Level 3 now will upgrade all of
TW Telecoms ports.





Aryn H. K. Nakaoka
anaka...@trinet-hi.com

Direct: 808.356.2901
Fax : 808.356.2919

Call me with our Browser Phone : https://encrypted.alohatone.com/3562901

Tri-net Solutions
733 Bishop St. #1170
Honolulu, HI 96813
http://www.trinet-hi.com

Aloha Tone PBX  http://youtu.be/27v2wbnFIDs

CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE:  The information contained in this email and any
attachments may be privileged, confidential and protected from disclosure.
Any disclosure, distribution or copying of this email or any attachments by
persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you
have received this email in error, please notify the sender immediately by
replying to the message and deleting this email and any attachments from
your system. Thank you for your cooperation.

Download my public key file:
http://keyserver1.pgp.com/vkd/DownloadKey.event?keyid=0x879851CEB7109A52








On Tue, Nov 4, 2014 at 4:26 AM, jungle Boogie jungleboog...@gmail.com
wrote:

 Hello,
 On 3 November 2014 23:23, Aryn Nakaoka 808.356.2901
 anaka...@trinet-hi.com wrote:
  It'll be interesting now that L3 and TWTC are one.
 
 
 http://investors.level3.com/investor-relations/presentations-and-events/default.aspx
 
 

 I thought this had already happened based on this:
 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TW_Telecom
 On June 16, 2014, Level 3 Communications Inc. agreed to buy TW Telecom
 for about $5.7 billion in cash and stock.

 But now it is official.

 
  Aryn H. K. Nakaoka
  anaka...@trinet-hi.com
 
  Direct: 808.356.2901
  Fax : 808.356.2919
 

 --
 ---
 inum: 883510009027723
 sip: jungleboo...@sip2sip.info
 xmpp: jungle-boo...@jit.si

___
VoiceOps mailing list
VoiceOps@voiceops.org
https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops

Re: [VoiceOps] Call Quality issues?

[jungle Boogie]

Hello Pete,
On 3 November 2014 09:08, Pete E peeip...@gmail.com wrote:
 Anyone seeing heavy call quality problems? We're still trying to narrow down
 but appears to be Level3/Global Crossing?


Yes, at work we use 8x8.com which is level 3 and a few calls over the
past hour or so are broken up badly but when trying to test by calling
inbound from mobile number, audio was not broken up.




-- 
---
inum: 883510009027723
sip: jungleboo...@sip2sip.info
xmpp: jungle-boo...@jit.si
___
VoiceOps mailing list
VoiceOps@voiceops.org
https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops

Re: [VoiceOps] Call Quality issues?

[Nick Crocker]

Yes we have a customer reporting issues with calls going across L3 to one
our SBCs in LA. Does not seem to be widespread for us yet, we have have L3
and TWTC in LA and it seems to be isolated to L3. The customer also uses
Intelepeer and they are having the same packet loss from them.

On Mon, Nov 3, 2014 at 3:23 PM, jungle Boogie jungleboog...@gmail.com
wrote:

 Hello Pete,
 On 3 November 2014 09:08, Pete E peeip...@gmail.com wrote:
  Anyone seeing heavy call quality problems? We're still trying to narrow
 down
  but appears to be Level3/Global Crossing?
 

 Yes, at work we use 8x8.com which is level 3 and a few calls over the
 past hour or so are broken up badly but when trying to test by calling
 inbound from mobile number, audio was not broken up.
 
 


 --
 ---
 inum: 883510009027723
 sip: jungleboo...@sip2sip.info
 xmpp: jungle-boo...@jit.si
 ___
 VoiceOps mailing list
 VoiceOps@voiceops.org
 https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops

___
VoiceOps mailing list
VoiceOps@voiceops.org
https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops