[web2py] Re: reddit again
it's not provacative, it's attractive. apart from that, i agree with what you said. let's not hijack other frameworks' threads. On Mar 22, 7:27 am, pbreit pbreitenb...@gmail.com wrote: Massimo, sorry to say but I think your posting style invites the unwanted attention (av201001, too). I'm a Web2py supporter but I think they are right, we don't play well in the discussions. Posting a video under the title Facebook clone in 11 minutes is unnecessarily provocative. Joking about others hijacking the thread is passive-aggressive. As is following every Flask/Django/etc comment with but I like Flask/Django/etc. And hijacking threads, which we clearly do, and saying we don't is really bad style (regardless if other people do it). I think we could use a little grace in our interactions with the communities. Web2py is too good to leave such a bad impression everywhere. I also think we overstate the benefits of not having to write much code. It doesn't really matter what can be written with a little code, it matters what can be written with a lot of code. Same with write once, run anywhere. Most deploy to one platform. These are nice features, but not worth getting into arguments over.
[web2py] Re: reddit again
Agree. Web2py has achieved a good ever growing userbase momentum now. 2 years ago there were like 6 threads created/updated daily in this Google groups discussion, Currently, its like 4-5 times that number. We are not the same skinny new kid on the block anymore. There is no need to hijack other frameworks' threads. Guerrilla marketing tactics worked well but now we can move on with seduction, atracting users instead of 'stalking' them. Disclaimer: I am proud web2py fan since 2008.
[web2py] Re: reddit again
Perhaps you are right. I will try be more careful. On Mar 22, 2011, at 12:27 AM, pbreit wrote: Massimo, sorry to say but I think your posting style invites the unwanted attention (av201001, too). I'm a Web2py supporter but I think they are right, we don't play well in the discussions. Posting a video under the title Facebook clone in 11 minutes is unnecessarily provocative. Joking about others hijacking the thread is passive-aggressive. As is following every Flask/Django/etc comment with but I like Flask/Django/etc. And hijacking threads, which we clearly do, and saying we don't is really bad style (regardless if other people do it). I think we could use a little grace in our interactions with the communities. Web2py is too good to leave such a bad impression everywhere. I also think we overstate the benefits of not having to write much code. It doesn't really matter what can be written with a little code, it matters what can be written with a lot of code. Same with write once, run anywhere. Most deploy to one platform. These are nice features, but not worth getting into arguments over.
[web2py] Re: reddit again
@pbreit Reddit is clearly an informal place to promote new things. This includes some jokes and banter and Massimo and av200101 have a polite and informative style which always tends to be objective. We can of course all choose our words more carefully, but the ambience on Reddit seems more like a bar rather than a boardroom. As far as I know, the video is actually titled: Building a minimalist Facebook clone and deploying it on Google App Engine You are really saying that is provocative?! Please explain and suggest a less provocative title. Perhaps something like 'Programming video - please don't get upset or anything' might be better. You say that the Reddit posts leave such a bad impression everywhere. That just seems plain wrong to me! The posts that I have seen are interesting and polite and I think the av200101 guy is great! On Mar 22, 5:27 am, pbreit pbreitenb...@gmail.com wrote: Massimo, sorry to say but I think your posting style invites the unwanted attention (av201001, too). I'm a Web2py supporter but I think they are right, we don't play well in the discussions. Posting a video under the title Facebook clone in 11 minutes is unnecessarily provocative. Joking about others hijacking the thread is passive-aggressive. As is following every Flask/Django/etc comment with but I like Flask/Django/etc. And hijacking threads, which we clearly do, and saying we don't is really bad style (regardless if other people do it). I think we could use a little grace in our interactions with the communities. Web2py is too good to leave such a bad impression everywhere. I also think we overstate the benefits of not having to write much code. It doesn't really matter what can be written with a little code, it matters what can be written with a lot of code. Same with write once, run anywhere. Most deploy to one platform. These are nice features, but not worth getting into arguments over.
Re: [web2py] Re: reddit again
On Tue, Mar 22, 2011 at 2:09 PM, villas villa...@gmail.com wrote: You are really saying that is provocative?! Please explain and suggest a less provocative title. Perhaps something like 'Programming video - please don't get upset or anything' might be better. LOL
[web2py] Re: reddit again
Maybe they are just jealous they never thought of what you have done before you made it a reality with web2py.
Re: [web2py] Re: reddit again
I do not bother using reddit for anything other than laughing at some trollface comics every once in a blue moon. -- Thadeus On Tue, Mar 22, 2011 at 9:49 AM, ron_m ron.mco...@gmail.com wrote: Maybe they are just jealous they never thought of what you have done before you made it a reality with web2py.
[web2py] Re: reddit again
How about video tutorial: Facebook-style friend-feed in web2py
[web2py] Re: reddit again
I have stated several times that Massimo should be very careful in advocating for Web2py. I'm still holding this opinion. But I won't elaborate on this. About the facebook clone. I do not see anything offensive about this video. I thought it's pretty good. But it can be improved. How? Well, Facebook, Reddit, etc. are quite trivial applications in terms of functionality and features. But Facebook doesn't work perfectly and Reddit fails once every other day. Why? The answer is Scalability These applications are hard to build to withstand a tremendously large user base. Here's my suggestion. I remember Massimo did a Reddit clone once. Let's redo this. This will be a hit if done right (the political climate is right :-)). The Reddit clone should show these: 1. Expressiveness and conciseness of Web2py. 2. Exhibition of included batteries: form, authentication, permission, DAL and CRUD. 3. Scalability. There are many frameworks that will take 2 of these 3 items. A good microframework will take 1 and 3 easily. I think Web2py can leverage itself to take all 3 items. Items 1+2 can be easily shown. But item 3 will take a thoughtful experimental design to show. And it might cost some money (but probability not much).Item 3 encapsulates many practical aspects, including deployment. Possibly, choose a fast server like nginx, fine tune the set up to produce optimal results. And if possible, set up a scenario multiple replicated databases. I believe this demonstration will be far better than the mere words of advocacy for web2py. The benefits are multi-fold and will affect new comers and current users (many of whom, I think, are still struggling or at least tweaking with optimal, scalable deployment of web2py apps). Nobody expects that this Reddit clone will replace Reddit (for instance). Fortunately (or unfortunately), not many real apps will have the problem of breaking Reddit frequently is having. But, many people will jump in if they see that Web2py is productive, easy and able to build decently scalable apps.
[web2py] Re: reddit again
Ok, tomorrow. On Mar 22, 10:34 am, pbreit pbreitenb...@gmail.com wrote: How about video tutorial: Facebook-style friend-feed in web2py
[web2py] Re: reddit again
There is no need to hijack other frameworks' threads. For the record. Our thread was hijacked by both Flask and Django. http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/g875i/building_a_minimalist_facebook_clone_and/c1lnyu8 http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/g875i/building_a_minimalist_facebook_clone_and/c1lqq In the last year - as far as I remember - I only intervened in threads about general discussion on web frameworks OR to clarify incorrect statements made by somebody else about web2py OR after at least two other frameworks were already mentioned and it turned into a discussions about web frameworks. The most recent attack came from an anonymous user who never posted anything else but negative comments on web2py. I find it odd. Anyway typical issues people bring up are: # exec we do it for a reason: in fact, we are the only framework to allow hot install, and uninstall of apps in production and without having sys.path conflict between modules of different apps. the way it is done does not pose any security risk: we do not exec users'input, only serverside code. Other frameworks do module reloading. That only works with Python web servers. That has problems like potential memory leaks (if imported module instantiates an object with a __del__ method and a self reference). # implicit imports Rails does it too, and it is considered good. Enthought python does it too and it is considered a flagship product by the python community. # models and controllers are not python modules No, they are not. Templates are not python modules in any framework, why should models and controllers be? They are not Ruby modules in Rails. That is because they also require a context to run: the http request. # web2py is a Domain Specific Language If it were, there would be nothing bad. Yet, it is not. We use pure Python language everywhere as opposed to other frameworks who indeed use a domain specific language (not python) for configuration files and yet another for templates. # we by-pass normal imports No. we have implicit imports (as mentioned above) and they are well documented. web2py supports normal imports as any other python program. We also have an additional method called local_import as a convenience shortcut to avoid problems with the fact that sys.path is not thread safe. # web2py is not packaged as other web framework True. We will change that. Yet the current packaging is particularly convenient to new users. Some assume that because we ship all modules together, those modules do not work independently outside web2py but, in fact, they do. # web2py is not perfect True. Nothing is. It may not be for everybody. If it is not for you do not use but do not complain about the people who made it available to you for free. # we attack other frameworks Never. At most we pointed out that some of them do not seem to take usability for new users at heart and we think that is important. Being easy to use means lower development and maintenance costs. I also think that some of them do a veyr poor job at backward compatibility but I do not think I ever pointed that out outside this list. Massimo
[web2py] Re: reddit again
On Mar 22, 9:49 am, ron_m ron.mco...@gmail.com wrote: Maybe they are just jealous they never thought of what you have done before you made it a reality with web2py. I do not think that is it. I accept the fact that some people truly do not like web2py and that is ok. Every design decision is a compromise. There are parts I do not like (although as whole I like it better than the alternatives, of course). The problem is that we always the people who scream the most. And those who scream the most are not agnostic users looking for the best tool for the job. They are people with something at stake in the relative success of web framework (and I guess I am one these people). With two exception (one being me) these people are not even the creators of the framework they try to bolster, they just act as such and make profit from it. I do not blame them either. Only three things bother me: - when people make false statements - when people who have a professional responsibility within the Python community make statements that are divisive and not inclusive (luckily this is very rare) - when people accuse me (or somebody else) of doing what they do.
[web2py] Re: reddit again
It definitely would be nice if we could point to at least one high volume web2py-based site. A Reddit/Digg/HackerNews-type site might make sense. Although I'm wondering if we would be able to get much traffic? It also would be nice if we had some core apps available such as CMS, Blog, Forums, Wiki. If we had a Wiki, we could use it for slices. It would be nice if the book and/or the book app was open-sourced and/or forkable.
[web2py] Re: reddit again
Except that you have to be careful when you accuse people of making false statements. For example, pointing out that templates usually aren't python modules either is missing the point. Also, on #3, just take the high road. Pointing out that other people supposedly do the same bad behavior is not going to go very far.
[web2py] Re: reddit again
Book app: http://web2py.com/appliances/default/show/59 Blog/CMS: http://instant2press.appspot.com/ Forum: http://pyforum.org/ QA: http://beta.qa-stack.com/ Wiki: plugin_wiki Check out http://web2py.com/poweredby and http://web2py.com/appliances. Bruno and Martin are working on a whole new slices site (much more than just a wiki). Anthony On Tuesday, March 22, 2011 2:25:21 PM UTC-4, pbreit wrote: It definitely would be nice if we could point to at least one high volume web2py-based site. A Reddit/Digg/HackerNews-type site might make sense. Although I'm wondering if we would be able to get much traffic? It also would be nice if we had some core apps available such as CMS, Blog, Forums, Wiki. If we had a Wiki, we could use it for slices. It would be nice if the book and/or the book app was open-sourced and/or forkable.
[web2py] Re: reddit again
I believe the 'high road' comment would be better directed towards those making unreasonable, false statements. In the heat of the moment, Massimo did concede that it 'bothers' him. Such 'outbursts' are rather uncharacteristic, so we can assume he was somewhat displeased. Can we allow that without too much nit- picking? I hope so. On Mar 22, 6:28 pm, pbreit pbreitenb...@gmail.com wrote: Except that you have to be careful when you accuse people of making false statements. For example, pointing out that templates usually aren't python modules either is missing the point. Also, on #3, just take the high road. Pointing out that other people supposedly do the same bad behavior is not going to go very far.
Re: [web2py] Re: reddit again
Just my2cents yah, I think the most and more important to showing its power first is good eye catching design. Most of them: instant2press, pyforum, qa-stack having bad look, at least for me. Get a graphic/web designer. Show how commonly web 2.0 look. I do care the first look impression, functionality is number 2! And I believe most people agree with me :D I do interest to dive for something* if it sample have look nice, eye catching and wow*! Then i will dive more deep. Example built with yiiframework http://www.piclyf.com/ http://www.piclyf.com/Other stuff http://www.webdesignerdepot.com/2009/09/25-examples-of-web-2-0-and-traditional-design-rules-coming-together/ On 23 March 2011 02:45, Anthony abasta...@gmail.com wrote: Book app: http://web2py.com/appliances/default/show/59 Blog/CMS: http://instant2press.appspot.com/ Forum: http://pyforum.org/ QA: http://beta.qa-stack.com/ Wiki: plugin_wiki Check out http://web2py.com/poweredby and http://web2py.com/appliances. Bruno and Martin are working on a whole new slices site (much more than just a wiki). -- coderbuzz
[web2py] Re: reddit again
By the way ... you may notice that most of the comments are pro- web2py. The negative comments can always be traced to the same small group of users. On Mar 21, 7:13 pm, Massimo Di Pierro massimo.dipie...@gmail.com wrote: This morning I posted the facebook clone video on reddit. It was popular. It was second for a while in /r/programming. We had 2000+ views and many positive comments. That is when some anonymous redditors started attacking us: http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/g875i/building_a_minimal...http://www.reddit.com/r/Python/comments/g8hnm/why_does_the_web2py_com... This time they are not attacking me. They are attacking the community by making knowingly false statements. It is disgraceful. I am not sure what to do except that this community must do a better job at outreaching. I just invite everybody to remain civil and technical in our arguments. Massimo
[web2py] Re: reddit again
Massimo, sorry to say but I think your posting style invites the unwanted attention (av201001, too). I'm a Web2py supporter but I think they are right, we don't play well in the discussions. Posting a video under the title Facebook clone in 11 minutes is unnecessarily provocative. Joking about others hijacking the thread is passive-aggressive. As is following every Flask/Django/etc comment with but I like Flask/Django/etc. And hijacking threads, which we clearly do, and saying we don't is really bad style (regardless if other people do it). I think we could use a little grace in our interactions with the communities. Web2py is too good to leave such a bad impression everywhere. I also think we overstate the benefits of not having to write much code. It doesn't really matter what can be written with a little code, it matters what can be written with a lot of code. Same with write once, run anywhere. Most deploy to one platform. These are nice features, but not worth getting into arguments over.
