Re: WO alternatives
Data extraction? isn't that brain surgery? Don On Oct 10, 2009, at 9:38 PM, Chuck Hill wrote: On Oct 10, 2009, at 11:58 AM, David Holt wrote: On 2009-10-10, at 10:53 AM, Chuck Hill wrote: On Oct 10, 2009, at 10:36 AM, Guido Neitzer wrote: On 9. Oct. 2009, at 22:30 , Stephane Guyot wrote: today I don't believe the challenge is on the server anymore. As long as you can't pull the data out of the user's nose, I believe the Icelanders perfected this. Horsenosesucking, wasn't it? :-) I think that was for culinary purposes, not data extraction. -- Chuck Hill Senior Consultant / VP Development Practical WebObjects - for developers who want to increase their overall knowledge of WebObjects or who are trying to solve specific problems. http://www.global-village.net/products/practical_webobjects ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/pccdonl %40mac.com This email sent to pccd...@mac.com ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: WO alternatives
On Oct 10, 2009, at 11:58 AM, David Holt wrote: On 2009-10-10, at 10:53 AM, Chuck Hill wrote: On Oct 10, 2009, at 10:36 AM, Guido Neitzer wrote: On 9. Oct. 2009, at 22:30 , Stephane Guyot wrote: today I don't believe the challenge is on the server anymore. As long as you can't pull the data out of the user's nose, I believe the Icelanders perfected this. Horsenosesucking, wasn't it? :-) I think that was for culinary purposes, not data extraction. -- Chuck Hill Senior Consultant / VP Development Practical WebObjects - for developers who want to increase their overall knowledge of WebObjects or who are trying to solve specific problems. http://www.global-village.net/products/practical_webobjects ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: WO alternatives
I think we already fulfilled all requirements for international consideration today - we had multiple links to French sites that I didn't even bother to understand. :-) Tim UCLA GSE&IS On Oct 10, 2009, at 1:50 PM, Miguel Arroz wrote: > Hi! > > Would you please use the metric system? Celsius anyone? :P > > Yours > > Miguel Arroz > > On 2009/10/10, at 20:20, Chuck Hill wrote: > >> >> On Oct 10, 2009, at 11:41 AM, Kieran Kelleher wrote: >> >>> So many WO-devs on the list on a Saturday how about that?! >> >> Sad, isn't it? My excuse is that I live on the other coast and just dragged >> myself out of a warm, soft bed. >> >> >>> Too cold outside for you in the frozen tundras of the north Chuck?! ;-) >> >> Sunny and 60 today. >> >> >>> Well, since this is the time of year to dig Chuck about preparing for his >>> very cold winter in the frozen tundras of the north, >> >> I see you are acquiring the American knowledge of geography. I live in a >> rain forest. It very rarely snows. East of here, that is where it freezes. >> Here, it rains. All day. Every day. For months. It is an excellent >> place to feel suicidal. >> >> >> >>> let me say that I am now going to turn off my email quickly before he >>> replies, prepare the nice Prime Rib Roast for the grill rotisserie outside >>> in the 85 F sunny Florida weather and I am going to enjoy a pint of stout >>> while it cooks nice and slow. >> >> I was not sure before, but now I am. I hate you!!! >> >> >> >>> And of course that's Guinness stout, none of that chocolate milk flavored >>> stout that Chuck likes! >> >> I hope the foam runs up your nose and causes a nasty sting! >> >> >> Chuck >> >> >>> On Oct 10, 2009, at 1:53 PM, Chuck Hill wrote: >>> On Oct 10, 2009, at 10:36 AM, Guido Neitzer wrote: > On 9. Oct. 2009, at 22:30 , Stephane Guyot wrote: > >> today I don't believe the challenge is on the server anymore. > > As long as you can't pull the data out of the user's nose, And when you can, I think, I shall retire. -- Chuck Hill Senior Consultant / VP Development Practical WebObjects - for developers who want to increase their overall knowledge of WebObjects or who are trying to solve specific problems. http://www.global-village.net/products/practical_webobjects ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/kieran_lists%40mac.com This email sent to kieran_li...@mac.com >>> >> >> -- >> Chuck Hill Senior Consultant / VP Development >> >> Practical WebObjects - for developers who want to increase their overall >> knowledge of WebObjects or who are trying to solve specific problems. >> http://www.global-village.net/products/practical_webobjects >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ___ >> Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. >> Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) >> Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: >> http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/arroz%40guiamac.com >> >> This email sent to ar...@guiamac.com > > ___ > Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. > Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) > Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: > http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/lists%40thetimmy.com > > This email sent to li...@thetimmy.com ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: WO alternatives
Hi! Would you please use the metric system? Celsius anyone? :P Yours Miguel Arroz On 2009/10/10, at 20:20, Chuck Hill wrote: On Oct 10, 2009, at 11:41 AM, Kieran Kelleher wrote: So many WO-devs on the list on a Saturday how about that?! Sad, isn't it? My excuse is that I live on the other coast and just dragged myself out of a warm, soft bed. Too cold outside for you in the frozen tundras of the north Chuck?! ;-) Sunny and 60 today. Well, since this is the time of year to dig Chuck about preparing for his very cold winter in the frozen tundras of the north, I see you are acquiring the American knowledge of geography. I live in a rain forest. It very rarely snows. East of here, that is where it freezes. Here, it rains. All day. Every day. For months. It is an excellent place to feel suicidal. let me say that I am now going to turn off my email quickly before he replies, prepare the nice Prime Rib Roast for the grill rotisserie outside in the 85 F sunny Florida weather and I am going to enjoy a pint of stout while it cooks nice and slow. I was not sure before, but now I am. I hate you!!! And of course that's Guinness stout, none of that chocolate milk flavored stout that Chuck likes! I hope the foam runs up your nose and causes a nasty sting! Chuck On Oct 10, 2009, at 1:53 PM, Chuck Hill wrote: On Oct 10, 2009, at 10:36 AM, Guido Neitzer wrote: On 9. Oct. 2009, at 22:30 , Stephane Guyot wrote: today I don't believe the challenge is on the server anymore. As long as you can't pull the data out of the user's nose, And when you can, I think, I shall retire. -- Chuck Hill Senior Consultant / VP Development Practical WebObjects - for developers who want to increase their overall knowledge of WebObjects or who are trying to solve specific problems. http://www.global-village.net/products/practical_webobjects ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/kieran_lists%40mac.com This email sent to kieran_li...@mac.com -- Chuck Hill Senior Consultant / VP Development Practical WebObjects - for developers who want to increase their overall knowledge of WebObjects or who are trying to solve specific problems. http://www.global-village.net/products/practical_webobjects ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/arroz%40guiamac.com This email sent to ar...@guiamac.com smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: WO alternatives
LOL :-) On Oct 10, 2009, at 3:20 PM, Chuck Hill wrote: On Oct 10, 2009, at 11:41 AM, Kieran Kelleher wrote: So many WO-devs on the list on a Saturday how about that?! Sad, isn't it? My excuse is that I live on the other coast and just dragged myself out of a warm, soft bed. Too cold outside for you in the frozen tundras of the north Chuck?! ;-) Sunny and 60 today. Well, since this is the time of year to dig Chuck about preparing for his very cold winter in the frozen tundras of the north, I see you are acquiring the American knowledge of geography. I live in a rain forest. It very rarely snows. East of here, that is where it freezes. Here, it rains. All day. Every day. For months. It is an excellent place to feel suicidal. let me say that I am now going to turn off my email quickly before he replies, prepare the nice Prime Rib Roast for the grill rotisserie outside in the 85 F sunny Florida weather and I am going to enjoy a pint of stout while it cooks nice and slow. I was not sure before, but now I am. I hate you!!! And of course that's Guinness stout, none of that chocolate milk flavored stout that Chuck likes! I hope the foam runs up your nose and causes a nasty sting! Chuck On Oct 10, 2009, at 1:53 PM, Chuck Hill wrote: On Oct 10, 2009, at 10:36 AM, Guido Neitzer wrote: On 9. Oct. 2009, at 22:30 , Stephane Guyot wrote: today I don't believe the challenge is on the server anymore. As long as you can't pull the data out of the user's nose, And when you can, I think, I shall retire. -- Chuck Hill Senior Consultant / VP Development Practical WebObjects - for developers who want to increase their overall knowledge of WebObjects or who are trying to solve specific problems. http://www.global-village.net/products/practical_webobjects ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/kieran_lists%40mac.com This email sent to kieran_li...@mac.com -- Chuck Hill Senior Consultant / VP Development Practical WebObjects - for developers who want to increase their overall knowledge of WebObjects or who are trying to solve specific problems. http://www.global-village.net/products/practical_webobjects ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: WO alternatives
On Oct 10, 2009, at 11:41 AM, Kieran Kelleher wrote: So many WO-devs on the list on a Saturday how about that?! Sad, isn't it? My excuse is that I live on the other coast and just dragged myself out of a warm, soft bed. Too cold outside for you in the frozen tundras of the north Chuck?! ;-) Sunny and 60 today. Well, since this is the time of year to dig Chuck about preparing for his very cold winter in the frozen tundras of the north, I see you are acquiring the American knowledge of geography. I live in a rain forest. It very rarely snows. East of here, that is where it freezes. Here, it rains. All day. Every day. For months. It is an excellent place to feel suicidal. let me say that I am now going to turn off my email quickly before he replies, prepare the nice Prime Rib Roast for the grill rotisserie outside in the 85 F sunny Florida weather and I am going to enjoy a pint of stout while it cooks nice and slow. I was not sure before, but now I am. I hate you!!! And of course that's Guinness stout, none of that chocolate milk flavored stout that Chuck likes! I hope the foam runs up your nose and causes a nasty sting! Chuck On Oct 10, 2009, at 1:53 PM, Chuck Hill wrote: On Oct 10, 2009, at 10:36 AM, Guido Neitzer wrote: On 9. Oct. 2009, at 22:30 , Stephane Guyot wrote: today I don't believe the challenge is on the server anymore. As long as you can't pull the data out of the user's nose, And when you can, I think, I shall retire. -- Chuck Hill Senior Consultant / VP Development Practical WebObjects - for developers who want to increase their overall knowledge of WebObjects or who are trying to solve specific problems. http://www.global-village.net/products/practical_webobjects ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/kieran_lists%40mac.com This email sent to kieran_li...@mac.com -- Chuck Hill Senior Consultant / VP Development Practical WebObjects - for developers who want to increase their overall knowledge of WebObjects or who are trying to solve specific problems. http://www.global-village.net/products/practical_webobjects ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: WO alternatives
On 2009-10-10, at 10:53 AM, Chuck Hill wrote: On Oct 10, 2009, at 10:36 AM, Guido Neitzer wrote: On 9. Oct. 2009, at 22:30 , Stephane Guyot wrote: today I don't believe the challenge is on the server anymore. As long as you can't pull the data out of the user's nose, I believe the Icelanders perfected this. Horsenosesucking, wasn't it? :-) And when you can, I think, I shall retire. -- Chuck Hill Senior Consultant / VP Development Practical WebObjects - for developers who want to increase their overall knowledge of WebObjects or who are trying to solve specific problems. http://www.global-village.net/products/practical_webobjects ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/programmingosx%40mac.com This email sent to programming...@mac.com ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: WO alternatives
So many WO-devs on the list on a Saturday how about that?! Too cold outside for you in the frozen tundras of the north Chuck?! ;-) Well, since this is the time of year to dig Chuck about preparing for his very cold winter in the frozen tundras of the north, let me say that I am now going to turn off my email quickly before he replies, prepare the nice Prime Rib Roast for the grill rotisserie outside in the 85 F sunny Florida weather and I am going to enjoy a pint of stout while it cooks nice and slow. And of course that's Guinness stout, none of that chocolate milk flavored stout that Chuck likes! Regards, Kieran :-) On Oct 10, 2009, at 1:53 PM, Chuck Hill wrote: On Oct 10, 2009, at 10:36 AM, Guido Neitzer wrote: On 9. Oct. 2009, at 22:30 , Stephane Guyot wrote: today I don't believe the challenge is on the server anymore. As long as you can't pull the data out of the user's nose, And when you can, I think, I shall retire. -- Chuck Hill Senior Consultant / VP Development Practical WebObjects - for developers who want to increase their overall knowledge of WebObjects or who are trying to solve specific problems. http://www.global-village.net/products/practical_webobjects ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/kieran_lists%40mac.com This email sent to kieran_li...@mac.com ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: WO alternatives
On Sat, Oct 10, 2009 at 11:22 AM, Joe Little wrote: > On Sat, Oct 10, 2009 at 10:53 AM, Chuck Hill wrote: >> >> On Oct 10, 2009, at 10:36 AM, Guido Neitzer wrote: >> >>> On 9. Oct. 2009, at 22:30 , Stephane Guyot wrote: >>> today I don't believe the challenge is on the server anymore. >>> >>> As long as you can't pull the data out of the user's nose, >> >> And when you can, I think, I shall retire. > > Wasn't that what the wirehose framework is for? Oh yeah, that was wirenose :) > >> >> -- Chuck Hill Senior Consultant / VP Development >> >> Practical WebObjects - for developers who want to increase their overall >> knowledge of WebObjects or who are trying to solve specific problems. >> http://www.global-village.net/products/practical_webobjects >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ___ >> Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. >> Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) >> Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: >> http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/jmlittle%40gmail.com >> >> This email sent to jmlit...@gmail.com >> > ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: WO alternatives
On Sat, Oct 10, 2009 at 10:53 AM, Chuck Hill wrote: > > On Oct 10, 2009, at 10:36 AM, Guido Neitzer wrote: > >> On 9. Oct. 2009, at 22:30 , Stephane Guyot wrote: >> >>> today I don't believe the challenge is on the server anymore. >> >> As long as you can't pull the data out of the user's nose, > > And when you can, I think, I shall retire. Wasn't that what the wirehose framework is for? > > -- Chuck Hill Senior Consultant / VP Development > > Practical WebObjects - for developers who want to increase their overall > knowledge of WebObjects or who are trying to solve specific problems. > http://www.global-village.net/products/practical_webobjects > > > > > > > > ___ > Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. > Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) > Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: > http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/jmlittle%40gmail.com > > This email sent to jmlit...@gmail.com > ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: WO alternatives
On Oct 10, 2009, at 10:36 AM, Guido Neitzer wrote: On 9. Oct. 2009, at 22:30 , Stephane Guyot wrote: today I don't believe the challenge is on the server anymore. As long as you can't pull the data out of the user's nose, And when you can, I think, I shall retire. -- Chuck Hill Senior Consultant / VP Development Practical WebObjects - for developers who want to increase their overall knowledge of WebObjects or who are trying to solve specific problems. http://www.global-village.net/products/practical_webobjects ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: WO alternatives
On 9. Oct. 2009, at 22:30 , Stephane Guyot wrote: today I don't believe the challenge is on the server anymore. As long as you can't pull the data out of the user's nose, the challenge will always be on the server. The presentation layer might not be assembled on the server anymore, but even that approach is debatable. Guido -- http://www.event-s.net ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: WO alternatives
Sorry Stephane, I don't agree with you. I know you're fallen in love with Flex ;-) but you can't oppose the client and the server. Both are important. Personally I'm considering Wonder and WO as a whole (sorry for the other frameworks included ours). And you can see how quick are the evolutions with more and more functions or integration of other frameworks. The same on the client side. Adobe rolled out interesting stuffs at the Max event. But seriously, when you say "did you have serious JS debugger, JS profiler?", if we could have stable and efficient Flex Builder in Eclipse (compare to java), it would be appreciate and productive. And when you see what you can do with Gianduia, It's amazing. I would like to have time to play with it but I can't so far. all the bests, Philippe On 10 oct. 09, at 08:37, Stephane Guyot wrote: Hi Stephane, the trouble with Flash is that's a proprietary format : http://codemoiunmouton.wordpress.com/2009/04/24/le-top-10-des-critiques-sur-flash/ Yes, you needs a Plugins, if you decide to stay in the browser, or a runtime if you wants develop Desktop Apps for Windows, Mac and Linux : http://timesreader.nytimes.com/timesreader/index.html Flex is opensource, LCDS is expensive and not opensource, but you have BlazeDS an opensource subset, AMF specification are public ... There's other alternatives : http://codemoiunmouton.wordpress.com/2009/07/01/flex-ou-silverlight/ Athena : http://www.baao.com/Video/Athena Goods news, you can develop with your Mac and Eclipse HTH, Stephane PS : to wait until other alternatives emerge having fun time : http://codemoiunmouton.wordpress.com/2009/07/03/realite-augmentee-et-flash/ Le 10 oct. 09 à 07:30, Stephane Guyot a écrit : Interesting thread today I don't believe the challenge is on the server anymore. Speaking for myself , less time I spent on the server, better I am. Actually I've choose Flex, I don't wants spent more time with Javascript, did you have serious JS Debugger, did you have serious JS Profiler ? Flex is server side agnostic, puts whatever you want on the server : Python, Rails, Php, Java It would be nice to be able to use WO on the server but only Apple will decide It would be nice to be able to use Flex/Flash on iPhone but . How to build Rich Application without writing any line of code on the server ? The world is moving : http://coenraets.org/blog/2009/10/my-max-session-video-posted-model-driven-development-with-flex-4-and-lcds3/ Stephane PS : Perhaps Apple should buy Adobe :-) Le 10 oct. 09 à 02:22, Lachlan Deck a écrit : On 10/10/2009, at 10:28 AM, Ravi Mendis wrote: On Friday, October 09, 2009, at 07:11PM, Joe Little > wrote: LiftWeb is painful to the eyes. Scala is great, LiftWeb just won't gain traction with my brain. I couldn't agree more: I love Scala, but it's a shame about Lift... If you're looking for alternatives or just something new, try Scala with WebObjects instead. This should get you started: http://wiki.objectstyle.org/confluence/display/WO/WebObjects+with+Scala IMHO Scala is to Java what Objective-C was to C. My first impressions of Scala is akin to what i felt about Objective-C when i first discovered it 15 yrs ago... interesting... For most developers i suspect that a sore-point of using WebObjects nowadays is...Java. So maybe you need to look at Java-alternatives not WO- alternatives :) Yeah, Java is certainly one point of consideration for its lack of dynamism. Certainly utilising Groovy or Scala could help here. But honestly I believe the major sore point (if there be one amongst the surveys) is the waiting for news about 5.5 and/or 5.6's arrival (which is all probably under NDA for you guys who were at WOWODC) ... and for that matter Giandiua ;). with regards, -- Lachlan Deck ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/stephane.guyot11%40wanadoo.fr This email sent to stephane.guyo...@wanadoo.fr IBCM : International Bank of Chatenay-Malabry http://www.kiva.org/lender/stephane4127 - Click on Map View ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/stephane.guyot11%40wanadoo.fr This email sent to stephane.guyo...@wanadoo.fr IBCM : International Bank of Chatenay-Malabry http://www.kiva.org/lender/stephane4127 - Click on Map View ___
Re: WO alternatives
On 10/10/2009, at 4:30 PM, Stephane Guyot wrote: Interesting thread today I don't believe the challenge is on the server anymore. I don't agree. Certainly the presentation layer is a changing landscape nowadays but the server-side will continue to remain an important ingredient in the service of fast, reliable, scalable and persistent data. And given that the presentation layers are changing, further development will be needed on the server-side to support the changes. e.g., cloud services and so forth (requires more server-side distributed services and architectures). with regards, -- Lachlan Deck ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: WO alternatives
Hi Stephane, the trouble with Flash is that's a proprietary format : http:// codemoiunmouton.wordpress.com/2009/04/24/le-top-10-des-critiques-sur- flash/ Yes, you needs a Plugins, if you decide to stay in the browser, or a runtime if you wants develop Desktop Apps for Windows, Mac and Linux : http://timesreader.nytimes.com/timesreader/index.html Flex is opensource, LCDS is expensive and not opensource, but you have BlazeDS an opensource subset, AMF specification are public ... There's other alternatives : http://codemoiunmouton.wordpress.com/ 2009/07/01/flex-ou-silverlight/ Athena : http://www.baao.com/Video/Athena Goods news, you can develop with your Mac and Eclipse HTH, Stephane PS : to wait until other alternatives emerge having fun time : http://codemoiunmouton.wordpress.com/2009/07/03/realite-augmentee-et- flash/ Le 10 oct. 09 à 07:30, Stephane Guyot a écrit : Interesting thread today I don't believe the challenge is on the server anymore. Speaking for myself , less time I spent on the server, better I am. Actually I've choose Flex, I don't wants spent more time with Javascript, did you have serious JS Debugger, did you have serious JS Profiler ? Flex is server side agnostic, puts whatever you want on the server : Python, Rails, Php, Java It would be nice to be able to use WO on the server but only Apple will decide It would be nice to be able to use Flex/Flash on iPhone but . How to build Rich Application without writing any line of code on the server ? The world is moving : http://coenraets.org/blog/2009/10/my-max- session-video-posted-model-driven-development-with-flex-4-and-lcds3/ Stephane PS : Perhaps Apple should buy Adobe :-) Le 10 oct. 09 à 02:22, Lachlan Deck a écrit : On 10/10/2009, at 10:28 AM, Ravi Mendis wrote: On Friday, October 09, 2009, at 07:11PM, Joe Little wrote: LiftWeb is painful to the eyes. Scala is great, LiftWeb just won't gain traction with my brain. I couldn't agree more: I love Scala, but it's a shame about Lift... If you're looking for alternatives or just something new, try Scala with WebObjects instead. This should get you started: http://wiki.objectstyle.org/confluence/display/WO/WebObjects+with +Scala IMHO Scala is to Java what Objective-C was to C. My first impressions of Scala is akin to what i felt about Objective-C when i first discovered it 15 yrs ago... interesting... For most developers i suspect that a sore-point of using WebObjects nowadays is...Java. So maybe you need to look at Java-alternatives not WO- alternatives :) Yeah, Java is certainly one point of consideration for its lack of dynamism. Certainly utilising Groovy or Scala could help here. But honestly I believe the major sore point (if there be one amongst the surveys) is the waiting for news about 5.5 and/or 5.6's arrival (which is all probably under NDA for you guys who were at WOWODC) ... and for that matter Giandiua ;). with regards, -- Lachlan Deck ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/ stephane.guyot11%40wanadoo.fr This email sent to stephane.guyo...@wanadoo.fr IBCM : International Bank of Chatenay-Malabry http://www.kiva.org/ lender/stephane4127 - Click on Map View ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/ stephane.guyot11%40wanadoo.fr This email sent to stephane.guyo...@wanadoo.fr IBCM : International Bank of Chatenay-Malabry http://www.kiva.org/ lender/stephane4127 - Click on Map View ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: WO alternatives
Interesting thread today I don't believe the challenge is on the server anymore. Speaking for myself , less time I spent on the server, better I am. Actually I've choose Flex, I don't wants spent more time with Javascript, did you have serious JS Debugger, did you have serious JS Profiler ? Flex is server side agnostic, puts whatever you want on the server : Python, Rails, Php, Java It would be nice to be able to use WO on the server but only Apple will decide It would be nice to be able to use Flex/Flash on iPhone but . How to build Rich Application without writing any line of code on the server ? The world is moving : http://coenraets.org/blog/2009/10/my-max- session-video-posted-model-driven-development-with-flex-4-and-lcds3/ Stephane PS : Perhaps Apple should buy Adobe :-) Le 10 oct. 09 à 02:22, Lachlan Deck a écrit : On 10/10/2009, at 10:28 AM, Ravi Mendis wrote: On Friday, October 09, 2009, at 07:11PM, Joe Little wrote: LiftWeb is painful to the eyes. Scala is great, LiftWeb just won't gain traction with my brain. I couldn't agree more: I love Scala, but it's a shame about Lift... If you're looking for alternatives or just something new, try Scala with WebObjects instead. This should get you started: http://wiki.objectstyle.org/confluence/display/WO/WebObjects+with +Scala IMHO Scala is to Java what Objective-C was to C. My first impressions of Scala is akin to what i felt about Objective-C when i first discovered it 15 yrs ago... interesting... For most developers i suspect that a sore-point of using WebObjects nowadays is...Java. So maybe you need to look at Java-alternatives not WO-alternatives :) Yeah, Java is certainly one point of consideration for its lack of dynamism. Certainly utilising Groovy or Scala could help here. But honestly I believe the major sore point (if there be one amongst the surveys) is the waiting for news about 5.5 and/or 5.6's arrival (which is all probably under NDA for you guys who were at WOWODC) ... and for that matter Giandiua ;). with regards, -- Lachlan Deck ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/ stephane.guyot11%40wanadoo.fr This email sent to stephane.guyo...@wanadoo.fr IBCM : International Bank of Chatenay-Malabry http://www.kiva.org/ lender/stephane4127 - Click on Map View ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: WO alternatives
On 9. Oct. 2009, at 07:38 , Pascal Robert wrote: In fact, we should tell people that we don't use WO, we should tell people that we develop with Eclipse and open source frameworks (Wonder/LEWOStuff/Houdah/other). You're late to the game. I was telling some customers since eight years that we were using Apache / Java / HTML / CSS for developing the apps. We are basing on "some 3rd party JARs to make development fast, but prefer OpenSource". Deployment can go to any "stable Java platform" and "we do not support Windows as we have not enough admin resources for this". cug ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: WO alternatives
On 10/10/2009, at 10:28 AM, Ravi Mendis wrote: On Friday, October 09, 2009, at 07:11PM, Joe Little > wrote: LiftWeb is painful to the eyes. Scala is great, LiftWeb just won't gain traction with my brain. I couldn't agree more: I love Scala, but it's a shame about Lift... If you're looking for alternatives or just something new, try Scala with WebObjects instead. This should get you started: http://wiki.objectstyle.org/confluence/display/WO/WebObjects+with +Scala IMHO Scala is to Java what Objective-C was to C. My first impressions of Scala is akin to what i felt about Objective- C when i first discovered it 15 yrs ago... interesting... For most developers i suspect that a sore-point of using WebObjects nowadays is...Java. So maybe you need to look at Java-alternatives not WO-alternatives :) Yeah, Java is certainly one point of consideration for its lack of dynamism. Certainly utilising Groovy or Scala could help here. But honestly I believe the major sore point (if there be one amongst the surveys) is the waiting for news about 5.5 and/or 5.6's arrival (which is all probably under NDA for you guys who were at WOWODC) ... and for that matter Giandiua ;). with regards, -- Lachlan Deck ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: WO alternatives
On Friday, October 09, 2009, at 07:11PM, Joe Little wrote: >LiftWeb is painful to the eyes. Scala is great, LiftWeb just won't >gain traction with my brain. I couldn't agree more: I love Scala, but it's a shame about Lift... If you're looking for alternatives or just something new, try Scala with WebObjects instead. This should get you started: http://wiki.objectstyle.org/confluence/display/WO/WebObjects+with+Scala IMHO Scala is to Java what Objective-C was to C. My first impressions of Scala is akin to what i felt about Objective-C when i first discovered it 15 yrs ago... For most developers i suspect that a sore-point of using WebObjects nowadays is...Java. So maybe you need to look at Java-alternatives not WO-alternatives :) Thanks, Ravi ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: WO alternatives
On Oct 9, 2009, at 10:02 AM, David Holt wrote: Yeah, but we can't READ them :-) Please note: These ebooks are not compatible with Apple MacIntosh or Linux systems. There is always Old Skool: http://www.amazon.com/Good-Calories-Bad-Gary-Taubes/dp/1400040787 Better science in that one too. Chuck On 9-Oct-09, at 9:51 AM, Chuck Hill wrote: On Oct 9, 2009, at 8:14 AM, Pascal Robert wrote: Le 09-10-09 à 11:09, Mike Schrag a écrit : If Apple decided to NEVER ship another WebObjects version, how would your life be different? The only thing that bugs me is that they might ship a new version of OS X with no Java JVM on it, or that 5.4 have serious bugs with Java 7. I guess we can move development to a Linux or Window box if this happens, but still it's a possibility. Also, when Apophosis hits Earth in 2029, it's going to completely destroy your colo facility. You should probably start stocking up on canned goods. I will probably die from a heart attack before 2029 because of the poutine and smoked meat :-) Probably not. http://www.thegreatcholesterolcon.com/ Refined vegetable oils and carbs though... -- Chuck Hill Senior Consultant / VP Development Practical WebObjects - for developers who want to increase their overall knowledge of WebObjects or who are trying to solve specific problems. http://www.global-village.net/products/practical_webobjects ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/programmingosx%40mac.com This email sent to programming...@mac.com -- Chuck Hill Senior Consultant / VP Development Practical WebObjects - for developers who want to increase their overall knowledge of WebObjects or who are trying to solve specific problems. http://www.global-village.net/products/practical_webobjects ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: WO alternatives
Yeah, but we can't READ them :-) Please note: These ebooks are not compatible with Apple MacIntosh or Linux systems. On 9-Oct-09, at 9:51 AM, Chuck Hill wrote: On Oct 9, 2009, at 8:14 AM, Pascal Robert wrote: Le 09-10-09 à 11:09, Mike Schrag a écrit : If Apple decided to NEVER ship another WebObjects version, how would your life be different? The only thing that bugs me is that they might ship a new version of OS X with no Java JVM on it, or that 5.4 have serious bugs with Java 7. I guess we can move development to a Linux or Window box if this happens, but still it's a possibility. Also, when Apophosis hits Earth in 2029, it's going to completely destroy your colo facility. You should probably start stocking up on canned goods. I will probably die from a heart attack before 2029 because of the poutine and smoked meat :-) Probably not. http://www.thegreatcholesterolcon.com/ Refined vegetable oils and carbs though... -- Chuck Hill Senior Consultant / VP Development Practical WebObjects - for developers who want to increase their overall knowledge of WebObjects or who are trying to solve specific problems. http://www.global-village.net/products/practical_webobjects ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/programmingosx %40mac.com This email sent to programming...@mac.com ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: WO alternatives
On Oct 9, 2009, at 8:14 AM, Pascal Robert wrote: Le 09-10-09 à 11:09, Mike Schrag a écrit : If Apple decided to NEVER ship another WebObjects version, how would your life be different? The only thing that bugs me is that they might ship a new version of OS X with no Java JVM on it, or that 5.4 have serious bugs with Java 7. I guess we can move development to a Linux or Window box if this happens, but still it's a possibility. Also, when Apophosis hits Earth in 2029, it's going to completely destroy your colo facility. You should probably start stocking up on canned goods. I will probably die from a heart attack before 2029 because of the poutine and smoked meat :-) Probably not. http://www.thegreatcholesterolcon.com/ Refined vegetable oils and carbs though... -- Chuck Hill Senior Consultant / VP Development Practical WebObjects - for developers who want to increase their overall knowledge of WebObjects or who are trying to solve specific problems. http://www.global-village.net/products/practical_webobjects ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: WO alternatives
Hi! On 2009/10/09, at 16:09, Mike Schrag wrote: Also, when Apophosis hits Earth in 2029 Can we have that happening earlier, please? Yours Miguel Arroz smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: WO alternatives
I am working on a set of rather complex apps serving a major entertainment site with tens of millions daily visitors. Feel free to email me if you have specific questions about this setup. I should mention here that Tapestry having a built-in dependency injection container is a big part of our success with this particular stack. Andrus On Oct 9, 2009, at 6:36 PM, Luke Holton wrote: All, Has anyone any experience/comments on a Tapestry / Cayenne combination? Regards, Luke Holton Tel: (602) 279-4600 ext 622 Fax: (602) 279-4768 Desert Sky Software: www.desertsky.com Specializing in the Development and Hosting of e-Business Applications. On Fri, 9 Oct 2009, Joe Little wrote: Yes, I find Grails or more specifically GORM to be the closest analogy. Very Rails inspired, but where it differs, it feels just like WO. I just hate JSP/GSP presentation layer, so GRAILS in the end doesn't float my boat. LiftWeb is painful to the eyes. Scala is great, LiftWeb just won't gain traction with my brain. On Fri, Oct 9, 2009 at 6:46 AM, Alexis Tual wrote: Le 9 oct. 09 ? 15:28, Pascal Robert a ?crit : Le 09-10-09 ? 08:00, Q a ?crit : On 09/10/2009, at 9:07 PM, Pascal Robert wrote: I'm wondering if we can just migrate and adapt Wonder on top of a project like GETobjects so that we can have a exit point, just in case... GETObjects, not likely, it's quite different, not API compatible, and not as complete. You would be giving up a lot you probably take for granted right now, and gaining stuff you probably already solved in other ways. What's the intended end point? Having something that is fully opensource, or having a stack that won't live or die by apple's hand? Door #2. Ok, all innovations from the last 5 years come from Wonder, so I don't care if WO is open sourced or not, because I know innovations and bug fixes will come from Wonder, not from Apple. In fact, it's almost easier to sell WO by talking of Wonder, because you can say "Ok, so the core frameworks are not open source, but third parties frameworks extend it so much that's almost open source". And looking at the surveys results, I think a lot of the community would drop off WO if Wonder and WOLips didn't exist. Couldn't agree more ! And by the way jar frameworks and maven support add a lot of credibility to the framework too. GETobjects needs some work, but has potential if you couldn't use WO. http://www.getobjects.org On 09/10/2009, at 9:04 AM, Daniel Mejia wrote: Hi all, If you have to choose another framework for Web Development , different than WO, what could be your selection? We're likely to use Grails which is a "full stack" framework. We've been using Wicket as a presentation framework but i wouldn't recommend it to WO users or Cocoa lovers as it's like writing Swing code. We've also experienced Cayenne which is also very similar to EOF. Regards, Alex. We are looking for alternatives and I would like to know if somebody knows something close to WO... Regards, Daniel. ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com ) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/qdolan%40gmail.com This email sent to qdo...@gmail.com -- Seeya...Q Quinton Dolan - qdo...@gmail.com Gold Coast, QLD, Australia (GMT+10) ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects- d...@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/probert%40macti.ca This email sent to prob...@macti.ca --- Pascal Robert Twitter | AIM/iChat : MacTICanada -- Seeya...Q Quinton Dolan - qdo...@gmail.com Gold Coast, QLD, Australia (GMT+10) ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/alexis.tual%40gmail.com This email sent to alexis.t...@gmail.com ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/jmlittle%40gmail.com This email sent to jmlit...@gmail.com ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/lholt
Re: WO alternatives
All, Has anyone any experience/comments on a Tapestry / Cayenne combination? Regards, Luke Holton Tel: (602) 279-4600 ext 622 Fax: (602) 279-4768 Desert Sky Software: www.desertsky.com Specializing in the Development and Hosting of e-Business Applications. On Fri, 9 Oct 2009, Joe Little wrote: Yes, I find Grails or more specifically GORM to be the closest analogy. Very Rails inspired, but where it differs, it feels just like WO. I just hate JSP/GSP presentation layer, so GRAILS in the end doesn't float my boat. LiftWeb is painful to the eyes. Scala is great, LiftWeb just won't gain traction with my brain. On Fri, Oct 9, 2009 at 6:46 AM, Alexis Tual wrote: Le 9 oct. 09 ? 15:28, Pascal Robert a ?crit : Le 09-10-09 ? 08:00, Q a ?crit : On 09/10/2009, at 9:07 PM, Pascal Robert wrote: I'm wondering if we can just migrate and adapt Wonder on top of a project like GETobjects so that we can have a exit point, just in case... GETObjects, not likely, it's quite different, not API compatible, and not as complete. You would be giving up a lot you probably take for granted right now, and gaining stuff you probably already solved in other ways. What's the intended end point? Having something that is fully opensource, or having a stack that won't live or die by apple's hand? Door #2. Ok, all innovations from the last 5 years come from Wonder, so I don't care if WO is open sourced or not, because I know innovations and bug fixes will come from Wonder, not from Apple. In fact, it's almost easier to sell WO by talking of Wonder, because you can say "Ok, so the core frameworks are not open source, but third parties frameworks extend it so much that's almost open source". And looking at the surveys results, I think a lot of the community would drop off WO if Wonder and WOLips didn't exist. Couldn't agree more ! And by the way jar frameworks and maven support add a lot of credibility to the framework too. GETobjects needs some work, but has potential if you couldn't use WO. http://www.getobjects.org On 09/10/2009, at 9:04 AM, Daniel Mejia wrote: Hi all, If you have to choose another framework for Web Development , different than WO, what could be your selection? We're likely to use Grails which is a "full stack" framework. We've been using Wicket as a presentation framework but i wouldn't recommend it to WO users or Cocoa lovers as it's like writing Swing code. We've also experienced Cayenne which is also very similar to EOF. Regards, Alex. We are looking for alternatives and I would like to know if somebody knows something close to WO... Regards, Daniel. ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/qdolan%40gmail.com This email sent to qdo...@gmail.com -- Seeya...Q Quinton Dolan - qdo...@gmail.com Gold Coast, QLD, Australia (GMT+10) ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/probert%40macti.ca This email sent to prob...@macti.ca --- Pascal Robert Twitter | AIM/iChat : MacTICanada -- Seeya...Q Quinton Dolan - qdo...@gmail.com Gold Coast, QLD, Australia (GMT+10) ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/alexis.tual%40gmail.com This email sent to alexis.t...@gmail.com ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/jmlittle%40gmail.com This email sent to jmlit...@gmail.com ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/lholton%40desertsky.com This email sent to lhol...@desertsky.com ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: WO alternatives
Then you should go to Nieue to herd goats for relaxation and a healthy diet of goats milk and berries. ;-) On Oct 9, 2009, at 11:14 AM, Pascal Robert wrote: Le 09-10-09 à 11:09, Mike Schrag a écrit : If Apple decided to NEVER ship another WebObjects version, how would your life be different? The only thing that bugs me is that they might ship a new version of OS X with no Java JVM on it, or that 5.4 have serious bugs with Java 7. I guess we can move development to a Linux or Window box if this happens, but still it's a possibility. Also, when Apophosis hits Earth in 2029, it's going to completely destroy your colo facility. You should probably start stocking up on canned goods. I will probably die from a heart attack before 2029 because of the poutine and smoked meat :-) ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/kieran_lists%40mac.com This email sent to kieran_li...@mac.com ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: WO alternatives
Yes, I find Grails or more specifically GORM to be the closest analogy. Very Rails inspired, but where it differs, it feels just like WO. I just hate JSP/GSP presentation layer, so GRAILS in the end doesn't float my boat. LiftWeb is painful to the eyes. Scala is great, LiftWeb just won't gain traction with my brain. On Fri, Oct 9, 2009 at 6:46 AM, Alexis Tual wrote: > Le 9 oct. 09 à 15:28, Pascal Robert a écrit : > >> >> Le 09-10-09 à 08:00, Q a écrit : >> >>> >>> On 09/10/2009, at 9:07 PM, Pascal Robert wrote: >>> I'm wondering if we can just migrate and adapt Wonder on top of a project like GETobjects so that we can have a exit point, just in case... >>> >>> GETObjects, not likely, it's quite different, not API compatible, and not >>> as complete. You would be giving up a lot you probably take for granted >>> right now, and gaining stuff you probably already solved in other ways. >>> >>> What's the intended end point? Having something that is fully opensource, >>> or having a stack that won't live or die by apple's hand? >> >> Door #2. Ok, all innovations from the last 5 years come from Wonder, so I >> don't care if WO is open sourced or not, because I know innovations and bug >> fixes will come from Wonder, not from Apple. In fact, it's almost easier to >> sell WO by talking of Wonder, because you can say "Ok, so the core >> frameworks are not open source, but third parties frameworks extend it so >> much that's almost open source". And looking at the surveys results, I think >> a lot of the community would drop off WO if Wonder and WOLips didn't exist. > > Couldn't agree more ! And by the way jar frameworks and maven support add a > lot of credibility to the framework too. > > >> >>> > GETobjects needs some work, but has potential if you couldn't use WO. > > http://www.getobjects.org > > On 09/10/2009, at 9:04 AM, Daniel Mejia wrote: > >> Hi all, >> >> If you have to choose another framework for Web Development , >> different than WO, what could be your selection? > > We're likely to use Grails which is a "full stack" framework. > We've been using Wicket as a presentation framework but i wouldn't recommend > it to WO users or Cocoa lovers as it's like writing Swing code. > We've also experienced Cayenne which is also very similar to EOF. > > Regards, > > Alex. > >> >> We are looking for alternatives and I would like to know if somebody >> knows something close to WO... >> >> Regards, >> >> Daniel. >> >> >> >> >> ___ >> Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. >> Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) >> Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: >> >> http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/qdolan%40gmail.com >> >> This email sent to qdo...@gmail.com > > > > -- > Seeya...Q > > Quinton Dolan - qdo...@gmail.com > Gold Coast, QLD, Australia (GMT+10) > > > > > ___ > Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. > Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) > Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: > > http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/probert%40macti.ca > > This email sent to prob...@macti.ca --- Pascal Robert Twitter | AIM/iChat : MacTICanada >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Seeya...Q >>> >>> Quinton Dolan - qdo...@gmail.com >>> Gold Coast, QLD, Australia (GMT+10) >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> ___ >> Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. >> Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) >> Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: >> >> http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/alexis.tual%40gmail.com >> >> This email sent to alexis.t...@gmail.com > > ___ > Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. > Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) > Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: > http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/jmlittle%40gmail.com > > This email sent to jmlit...@gmail.com > ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: WO alternatives
Le 09-10-09 à 11:09, Mike Schrag a écrit : If Apple decided to NEVER ship another WebObjects version, how would your life be different? The only thing that bugs me is that they might ship a new version of OS X with no Java JVM on it, or that 5.4 have serious bugs with Java 7. I guess we can move development to a Linux or Window box if this happens, but still it's a possibility. Also, when Apophosis hits Earth in 2029, it's going to completely destroy your colo facility. You should probably start stocking up on canned goods. I will probably die from a heart attack before 2029 because of the poutine and smoked meat :-) ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: WO alternatives
If Apple decided to NEVER ship another WebObjects version, how would your life be different? The only thing that bugs me is that they might ship a new version of OS X with no Java JVM on it, or that 5.4 have serious bugs with Java 7. I guess we can move development to a Linux or Window box if this happens, but still it's a possibility. Also, when Apophosis hits Earth in 2029, it's going to completely destroy your colo facility. You should probably start stocking up on canned goods. ms ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: WO alternatives
Pascal, I seriously doubt it's a possibility that OS X ships without JVM . try to keep the thread intelligent please;-):-P ... and even if Apple did not compile the JavaVM, er, I am sure it would be a short time before an installer is available . we would have to install it like all the poor Windoze folk have to do :-) . os x is unix-ish after all. Some interesting links: http://landonf.bikemonkey.org/static/soylatte/ http://mail.openjdk.java.net/pipermail/bsd-port-dev/2009-October/thread.htm https://jdk7.dev.java.net/ On Oct 9, 2009, at 10:38 AM, Pascal Robert wrote: The only thing that bugs me is that they might ship a new version of OS X with no Java JVM on it, or that 5.4 have serious bugs with Java 7. I guess we can move development to a Linux or Window box if this happens, but still it's a possibility. ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: WO alternatives
People are acting like Apple treated us like a top-tier developer community and all of a sudden yanked the rug out from under us. For that, I must add that I think that a lot of people are expecting Apple to treat us like a top-tier developer community because of the years of when Apple/NeXT was selling WO for tons of money. And WO became a tool for big enterprises, with a price tag that go with it, to a semi open-source product used by small consultant shops.3) What is the size of your organization? SOHO (1 to 9 employees)51%56Small business (10 to 99 employees)25%28Medium business (100 to 999 employees)7%8Enterprise (1000 to 4999 employees)2%2Large enterprise (5000+)2%2Government3%3College/university7%8K-120%0Other, please specify3%3Total respondents110And the average number of devs by organization is 3.something. This is quite different from the late 90s. ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: WO alternatives
Le 09-10-09 à 10:32, Mike Schrag a écrit : Ok, all innovations from the last 5 years come from Wonder, so I don't care if WO is open sourced or not, because I know innovations and bug fixes will come from Wonder, not from Apple. In fact, it's almost easier to sell WO by talking of Wonder, because you can say "Ok, so the core frameworks are not open source, but third parties frameworks extend it so much that's almost open source". And looking at the surveys results, I think a lot of the community would drop off WO if Wonder and WOLips didn't exist. Exactly. What has Apple done for you lately? By lately, I mean since 2005? We got WO 5.4. If you used Wonder already, this wasn't exactly a world-changing event. People are acting like Apple treated us like a top-tier developer community and all of a sudden yanked the rug out from under us. We decided years ago that we weren't going to wait for Apple to give us anything for WebObjects, and I think we've added some pretty cool features into Wonder (other folks, too, I'm just obviously Wonder-biased :) ). In fact, we should tell people that we don't use WO, we should tell people that we develop with Eclipse and open source frameworks (Wonder/ LEWOStuff/Houdah/other). If Apple decided to NEVER ship another WebObjects version, how would your life be different? The only thing that bugs me is that they might ship a new version of OS X with no Java JVM on it, or that 5.4 have serious bugs with Java 7. I guess we can move development to a Linux or Window box if this happens, but still it's a possibility. You know what would happen if WO had shipped on Snow Leopard? I would have continued to deploy my apps with WO 5.3 embedded, I would have replaced Monitor and wotaskd with Wonder's version, and I would have replaced mod_WebObjects with Wonder's version. In that sense, it's actually kind of convenient that WO didn't ship on Snow Leopard, because we have a clean slate and don't have to cleanup the one that shipped. Show me a WO/EOF bug we can't figure out how to fix in Wonder and I'll get nervous. Until then, I'm going to continue to use one of the best frameworks that's ever been made. ms ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/probert%40macti.ca This email sent to prob...@macti.ca ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: WO alternatives
Ok, all innovations from the last 5 years come from Wonder, so I don't care if WO is open sourced or not, because I know innovations and bug fixes will come from Wonder, not from Apple. In fact, it's almost easier to sell WO by talking of Wonder, because you can say "Ok, so the core frameworks are not open source, but third parties frameworks extend it so much that's almost open source". And looking at the surveys results, I think a lot of the community would drop off WO if Wonder and WOLips didn't exist. Exactly. What has Apple done for you lately? By lately, I mean since 2005? We got WO 5.4. If you used Wonder already, this wasn't exactly a world-changing event. People are acting like Apple treated us like a top-tier developer community and all of a sudden yanked the rug out from under us. We decided years ago that we weren't going to wait for Apple to give us anything for WebObjects, and I think we've added some pretty cool features into Wonder (other folks, too, I'm just obviously Wonder-biased :) ). If Apple decided to NEVER ship another WebObjects version, how would your life be different? You know what would happen if WO had shipped on Snow Leopard? I would have continued to deploy my apps with WO 5.3 embedded, I would have replaced Monitor and wotaskd with Wonder's version, and I would have replaced mod_WebObjects with Wonder's version. In that sense, it's actually kind of convenient that WO didn't ship on Snow Leopard, because we have a clean slate and don't have to cleanup the one that shipped. Show me a WO/EOF bug we can't figure out how to fix in Wonder and I'll get nervous. Until then, I'm going to continue to use one of the best frameworks that's ever been made. ms ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: WO alternatives
Le 09-10-09 à 09:28, Pascal Robert a écrit :Le 09-10-09 à 08:00, Q a écrit :On 09/10/2009, at 9:07 PM, Pascal Robert wrote:I'm wondering if we can just migrate and adapt Wonder on top of a project like GETobjects so that we can have a exit point, just in case...GETObjects, not likely, it's quite different, not API compatible, and not as complete. You would be giving up a lot you probably take for granted right now, and gaining stuff you probably already solved in other ways.What's the intended end point? Having something that is fully opensource, or having a stack that won't live or die by apple's hand?Door #2. Ok, all innovations from the last 5 years come from Wonder, so I don't care if WO is open sourced or not, because I know innovations and bug fixes will come from Wonder, not from Apple. In fact, it's almost easier to sell WO by talking of Wonder, because you can say "Ok, so the core frameworks are not open source, but third parties frameworks extend it so much that's almost open source". And looking at the surveys results, I think a lot of the community would drop off WO if Wonder and WOLips didn't exist.To support what I have said, this is a sample of the comments made for Wonder :49Great Work, And I love your work.50Keep up the good work.51you are so clever thank you all so much ...52Thanks!!! You guys are making my life so much easier.55Great job!58You are great!62Good luck63Wonderful!69Great framework. Keep up the great work.70Thank you very much!72You guys rock!And :14) If you are using commercial or free WebObjects frameworks not provided by Apple or your own, please specify which ones? Wonder91% ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: WO alternatives
Le 9 oct. 09 à 15:28, Pascal Robert a écrit : Le 09-10-09 à 08:00, Q a écrit : On 09/10/2009, at 9:07 PM, Pascal Robert wrote: I'm wondering if we can just migrate and adapt Wonder on top of a project like GETobjects so that we can have a exit point, just in case... GETObjects, not likely, it's quite different, not API compatible, and not as complete. You would be giving up a lot you probably take for granted right now, and gaining stuff you probably already solved in other ways. What's the intended end point? Having something that is fully opensource, or having a stack that won't live or die by apple's hand? Door #2. Ok, all innovations from the last 5 years come from Wonder, so I don't care if WO is open sourced or not, because I know innovations and bug fixes will come from Wonder, not from Apple. In fact, it's almost easier to sell WO by talking of Wonder, because you can say "Ok, so the core frameworks are not open source, but third parties frameworks extend it so much that's almost open source". And looking at the surveys results, I think a lot of the community would drop off WO if Wonder and WOLips didn't exist. Couldn't agree more ! And by the way jar frameworks and maven support add a lot of credibility to the framework too. GETobjects needs some work, but has potential if you couldn't use WO. http://www.getobjects.org On 09/10/2009, at 9:04 AM, Daniel Mejia wrote: Hi all, If you have to choose another framework for Web Development , different than WO, what could be your selection? We're likely to use Grails which is a "full stack" framework. We've been using Wicket as a presentation framework but i wouldn't recommend it to WO users or Cocoa lovers as it's like writing Swing code. We've also experienced Cayenne which is also very similar to EOF. Regards, Alex. We are looking for alternatives and I would like to know if somebody knows something close to WO... Regards, Daniel. ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/qdolan%40gmail.com This email sent to qdo...@gmail.com -- Seeya...Q Quinton Dolan - qdo...@gmail.com Gold Coast, QLD, Australia (GMT+10) ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/probert%40macti.ca This email sent to prob...@macti.ca --- Pascal Robert Twitter | AIM/iChat : MacTICanada -- Seeya...Q Quinton Dolan - qdo...@gmail.com Gold Coast, QLD, Australia (GMT+10) ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/alexis.tual%40gmail.com This email sent to alexis.t...@gmail.com ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: WO alternatives
I don't care for the XML databases per se, but the wider self declared NoSQL "movement", aside from the annoying hype that is so hard to escape, presents some interesting RDBMS alternatives, none requiring an ORM. E.g. a content repository API that is presumably great for CMS apps: http://jackrabbit.apache.org/ Or a RESTful document-oriented database (Hi, Lotus Notes!): http://couchdb.apache.org/ And that's just a few of them. There is an explosion of non-relational data store choices out there. Most of them make it hard to do many simple things we are accustomed to with RDBMS, but they give you other things in return. Certainly something to watch closely. Andrus On Oct 9, 2009, at 3:38 PM, Ramsey Lee Gurley wrote: I say this with the utmost respect of the work put into the open source ORM frameworks out there, but if I were to look at tech outside of WO, it would probably be something other than a "me too" ORM framework. I can't say I've looked much, but I've yet to find anything outside of WO that is remotely comparable to the D2W style of programming. That said, so far there is at least one other platform I have found truly interesting outside of WO. I will probably look into XRX at some point when I have time. It sounds very elegant in the fact that there's no deconstruction of objects necessitated by the use of a relational database. The database IS xml. No ORM required :) Plus, I would imagine that opens up a whole new class of patterns not available in typical ORM development. For instance, XSDs can declare free standing attributes that can attach to any element. With a relational db, how would you do this? Add an optional column on every table in your database for every one of those attributes? I can also see how XPath could be quite similar to KVC, and XSLTs could stand in for WOComponents. If XSLT is capable of doing something like a WOSwitchComponent and WOComponentContent, then I could see at least the potential to improve on WO rather than try to clone it... again. :) Plus, XSLT looks to have pretty good support client side... it would be pretty awesome if the client processor did most of the page processing while the server could just serve data and do data validation on input. I'm sure there's a lot more to it, but it just sounds really interesting to me. However, I'm not one to fret over the future of WO, so I guess I'm just posting to see if any of you WO guys have played with XRX and/or eXist-db? ;) Ramsey On Oct 8, 2009, at 10:16 PM, Daniel Mejia wrote: Chuck, First of all let me tell you that I have invested many years in WO, I have developed many systems with less bugs and much faster than with any other platform that I know. I´m very happy with the product and with the support that you and many other people provides, that is much better than the "professional support" from many companies, but after many discussions in our company we have decided to look for alternatives. There are many reasons for this decision , many of them discussed for other people in previous posts. We will continue developing with WO, but we think that is better for us and our customers to try to find an alternative at this time. We are evaluating SEAM from jBoss, Liftweb and Spring Web Flow. My question was with the idea to include in this evaluation any framework that the WO people recomend. Saludos, Daniel. On 08/10/2009, at 06:43 p.m., Chuck Hill wrote: On Oct 8, 2009, at 4:04 PM, Daniel Mejia wrote: Hi all, If you have to choose another framework for Web Development , different than WO, what could be your selection? We are looking for alternatives and I would like to know if somebody knows something close to WO... If we knew something close to WO, do you think we would be reading this list? It is not the road map and clear communication from Apple that keeps us here. Chuck -- Chuck Hill Senior Consultant / VP Development Practical WebObjects - for developers who want to increase their overall knowledge of WebObjects or who are trying to solve specific problems. http://www.global-village.net/products/practical_webobjects ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/rgurley%40mac.com This email sent to rgur...@mac.com ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/andrus%40objectstyle.org This email sent to and...@objectstyle.org ___ D
Re: WO alternatives
Le 09-10-09 à 08:00, Q a écrit : On 09/10/2009, at 9:07 PM, Pascal Robert wrote: I'm wondering if we can just migrate and adapt Wonder on top of a project like GETobjects so that we can have a exit point, just in case... GETObjects, not likely, it's quite different, not API compatible, and not as complete. You would be giving up a lot you probably take for granted right now, and gaining stuff you probably already solved in other ways. What's the intended end point? Having something that is fully opensource, or having a stack that won't live or die by apple's hand? Door #2. Ok, all innovations from the last 5 years come from Wonder, so I don't care if WO is open sourced or not, because I know innovations and bug fixes will come from Wonder, not from Apple. In fact, it's almost easier to sell WO by talking of Wonder, because you can say "Ok, so the core frameworks are not open source, but third parties frameworks extend it so much that's almost open source". And looking at the surveys results, I think a lot of the community would drop off WO if Wonder and WOLips didn't exist. GETobjects needs some work, but has potential if you couldn't use WO. http://www.getobjects.org On 09/10/2009, at 9:04 AM, Daniel Mejia wrote: Hi all, If you have to choose another framework for Web Development , different than WO, what could be your selection? We are looking for alternatives and I would like to know if somebody knows something close to WO... Regards, Daniel. ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/qdolan%40gmail.com This email sent to qdo...@gmail.com -- Seeya...Q Quinton Dolan - qdo...@gmail.com Gold Coast, QLD, Australia (GMT+10) ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/probert%40macti.ca This email sent to prob...@macti.ca --- Pascal Robert Twitter | AIM/iChat : MacTICanada -- Seeya...Q Quinton Dolan - qdo...@gmail.com Gold Coast, QLD, Australia (GMT+10) ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: WO alternatives
I say this with the utmost respect of the work put into the open source ORM frameworks out there, but if I were to look at tech outside of WO, it would probably be something other than a "me too" ORM framework. I can't say I've looked much, but I've yet to find anything outside of WO that is remotely comparable to the D2W style of programming. That said, so far there is at least one other platform I have found truly interesting outside of WO. I will probably look into XRX at some point when I have time. It sounds very elegant in the fact that there's no deconstruction of objects necessitated by the use of a relational database. The database IS xml. No ORM required :) Plus, I would imagine that opens up a whole new class of patterns not available in typical ORM development. For instance, XSDs can declare free standing attributes that can attach to any element. With a relational db, how would you do this? Add an optional column on every table in your database for every one of those attributes? I can also see how XPath could be quite similar to KVC, and XSLTs could stand in for WOComponents. If XSLT is capable of doing something like a WOSwitchComponent and WOComponentContent, then I could see at least the potential to improve on WO rather than try to clone it... again. :) Plus, XSLT looks to have pretty good support client side... it would be pretty awesome if the client processor did most of the page processing while the server could just serve data and do data validation on input. I'm sure there's a lot more to it, but it just sounds really interesting to me. However, I'm not one to fret over the future of WO, so I guess I'm just posting to see if any of you WO guys have played with XRX and/or eXist-db? ;) Ramsey On Oct 8, 2009, at 10:16 PM, Daniel Mejia wrote: Chuck, First of all let me tell you that I have invested many years in WO, I have developed many systems with less bugs and much faster than with any other platform that I know. I´m very happy with the product and with the support that you and many other people provides, that is much better than the "professional support" from many companies, but after many discussions in our company we have decided to look for alternatives. There are many reasons for this decision , many of them discussed for other people in previous posts. We will continue developing with WO, but we think that is better for us and our customers to try to find an alternative at this time. We are evaluating SEAM from jBoss, Liftweb and Spring Web Flow. My question was with the idea to include in this evaluation any framework that the WO people recomend. Saludos, Daniel. On 08/10/2009, at 06:43 p.m., Chuck Hill wrote: On Oct 8, 2009, at 4:04 PM, Daniel Mejia wrote: Hi all, If you have to choose another framework for Web Development , different than WO, what could be your selection? We are looking for alternatives and I would like to know if somebody knows something close to WO... If we knew something close to WO, do you think we would be reading this list? It is not the road map and clear communication from Apple that keeps us here. Chuck -- Chuck Hill Senior Consultant / VP Development Practical WebObjects - for developers who want to increase their overall knowledge of WebObjects or who are trying to solve specific problems. http://www.global-village.net/products/practical_webobjects ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/rgurley %40mac.com This email sent to rgur...@mac.com smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: WO alternatives
On 09/10/2009, at 9:07 PM, Pascal Robert wrote: I'm wondering if we can just migrate and adapt Wonder on top of a project like GETobjects so that we can have a exit point, just in case... GETObjects, not likely, it's quite different, not API compatible, and not as complete. You would be giving up a lot you probably take for granted right now, and gaining stuff you probably already solved in other ways. What's the intended end point? Having something that is fully opensource, or having a stack that won't live or die by apple's hand? GETobjects needs some work, but has potential if you couldn't use WO. http://www.getobjects.org On 09/10/2009, at 9:04 AM, Daniel Mejia wrote: Hi all, If you have to choose another framework for Web Development , different than WO, what could be your selection? We are looking for alternatives and I would like to know if somebody knows something close to WO... Regards, Daniel. ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/qdolan%40gmail.com This email sent to qdo...@gmail.com -- Seeya...Q Quinton Dolan - qdo...@gmail.com Gold Coast, QLD, Australia (GMT+10) ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/probert%40macti.ca This email sent to prob...@macti.ca --- Pascal Robert Twitter | AIM/iChat : MacTICanada -- Seeya...Q Quinton Dolan - qdo...@gmail.com Gold Coast, QLD, Australia (GMT+10) ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: WO alternatives
I'm wondering if we can just migrate and adapt Wonder on top of a project like GETobjects so that we can have a exit point, just in case... GETobjects needs some work, but has potential if you couldn't use WO. http://www.getobjects.org On 09/10/2009, at 9:04 AM, Daniel Mejia wrote: Hi all, If you have to choose another framework for Web Development , different than WO, what could be your selection? We are looking for alternatives and I would like to know if somebody knows something close to WO... Regards, Daniel. ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/qdolan%40gmail.com This email sent to qdo...@gmail.com -- Seeya...Q Quinton Dolan - qdo...@gmail.com Gold Coast, QLD, Australia (GMT+10) ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/probert%40macti.ca This email sent to prob...@macti.ca --- Pascal Robert Twitter | AIM/iChat : MacTICanada ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: WO alternatives
GETobjects needs some work, but has potential if you couldn't use WO. http://www.getobjects.org On 09/10/2009, at 9:04 AM, Daniel Mejia wrote: Hi all, If you have to choose another framework for Web Development , different than WO, what could be your selection? We are looking for alternatives and I would like to know if somebody knows something close to WO... Regards, Daniel. ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/qdolan%40gmail.com This email sent to qdo...@gmail.com -- Seeya...Q Quinton Dolan - qdo...@gmail.com Gold Coast, QLD, Australia (GMT+10) ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: WO alternatives
On Oct 9, 2009, at 5:53 AM, Daniel Mejia wrote: Thank you for your information. In the ORM side we have in the list Hibernate, Cayenne and EclipseLink . For the presentation layer we are going to check Tapestry. Saludos, Daniel. Hi Daniel, As one of Cayenne authors, I should mention that if you need any guidance or have any questions when evaluating Cayenne, please drop a note to the Cayenne user mailing list. We'll be happy to answer them. Another recommendation - use version 3.0 that is about to go Beta. It has so many more new and cool things compared to 2.0. http://cayenne.apache.org/mailing-lists.html Cheers, Andrus ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: WO alternatives
Thank you for your information. In the ORM side we have in the list Hibernate, Cayenne and EclipseLink . For the presentation layer we are going to check Tapestry. Saludos, Daniel. On 08/10/2009, at 09:03 p.m., John Ours wrote: Cayenne is surely the closest ORM. I'd pick GWT or Tapestry for the presentation depending on the type of application it is. GWT and Cayenne don't mix that well because of the JS serialization but it does work. John On Oct 8, 2009, at 7:04 PM, Daniel Mejia wrote: Hi all, If you have to choose another framework for Web Development , different than WO, what could be your selection? We are looking for alternatives and I would like to know if somebody knows something close to WO... Regards, Daniel. ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/jours%40mac.com This email sent to jo...@mac.com ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: WO alternatives
Chuck, First of all let me tell you that I have invested many years in WO, I have developed many systems with less bugs and much faster than with any other platform that I know. I´m very happy with the product and with the support that you and many other people provides, that is much better than the "professional support" from many companies, but after many discussions in our company we have decided to look for alternatives. There are many reasons for this decision , many of them discussed for other people in previous posts. We will continue developing with WO, but we think that is better for us and our customers to try to find an alternative at this time. We are evaluating SEAM from jBoss, Liftweb and Spring Web Flow. My question was with the idea to include in this evaluation any framework that the WO people recomend. Saludos, Daniel. On 08/10/2009, at 06:43 p.m., Chuck Hill wrote: On Oct 8, 2009, at 4:04 PM, Daniel Mejia wrote: Hi all, If you have to choose another framework for Web Development , different than WO, what could be your selection? We are looking for alternatives and I would like to know if somebody knows something close to WO... If we knew something close to WO, do you think we would be reading this list? It is not the road map and clear communication from Apple that keeps us here. Chuck -- Chuck Hill Senior Consultant / VP Development Practical WebObjects - for developers who want to increase their overall knowledge of WebObjects or who are trying to solve specific problems. http://www.global-village.net/products/practical_webobjects ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: WO alternatives
Daniel, You may have to find 2 cooperating technologies, one for presentation (think wo appserver/WOComponents) and one for persistence (think EOF). I have never used these, but: - Apache Cayenne was inspired by EOF, and founded by Andrus Adamchik (who is the guy behind objectstyle.org and the original WOProject tools for Eclipse, IIRC) http://cayenne.apache.org/why-cayenne.html - Apache Tapestry might work for presentation layer - not sure if both these work together. Either way, Apache has a whole bunch of web frameworks. In any case, let us know if you find something close to WO . many have expressed dissatisfaction with other technologies in the past. Like Chuck said, if there was something we all knew was better, would we be here. -Kieran On Oct 8, 2009, at 7:43 PM, Chuck Hill wrote: On Oct 8, 2009, at 4:04 PM, Daniel Mejia wrote: Hi all, If you have to choose another framework for Web Development , different than WO, what could be your selection? We are looking for alternatives and I would like to know if somebody knows something close to WO... If we knew something close to WO, do you think we would be reading this list? It is not the road map and clear communication from Apple that keeps us here. Chuck -- Chuck Hill Senior Consultant / VP Development Practical WebObjects - for developers who want to increase their overall knowledge of WebObjects or who are trying to solve specific problems. http://www.global-village.net/products/practical_webobjects ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/kieran_lists%40mac.com This email sent to kieran_li...@mac.com ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: WO alternatives
Cayenne is surely the closest ORM. I'd pick GWT or Tapestry for the presentation depending on the type of application it is. GWT and Cayenne don't mix that well because of the JS serialization but it does work. John On Oct 8, 2009, at 7:04 PM, Daniel Mejia wrote: Hi all, If you have to choose another framework for Web Development , different than WO, what could be your selection? We are looking for alternatives and I would like to know if somebody knows something close to WO... Regards, Daniel. ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/jours%40mac.com This email sent to jo...@mac.com ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: WO alternatives
On Oct 8, 2009, at 4:04 PM, Daniel Mejia wrote: Hi all, If you have to choose another framework for Web Development , different than WO, what could be your selection? We are looking for alternatives and I would like to know if somebody knows something close to WO... If we knew something close to WO, do you think we would be reading this list? It is not the road map and clear communication from Apple that keeps us here. Chuck -- Chuck Hill Senior Consultant / VP Development Practical WebObjects - for developers who want to increase their overall knowledge of WebObjects or who are trying to solve specific problems. http://www.global-village.net/products/practical_webobjects ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
