Re: WO(Re)petition
I agree that the Java Client issue is sufficiently serious, and there is much pain out there. However, I don't think WO is to blame – I think it's Java and Swing to a large extent. As someone posted the other day, (http://www.artima.com/weblogs/viewpost.jsp?thread=193593) there is a growing backlash against Java and Swing (and J2EE), and I think Apple is just at the front of that wave. J2EE just seems to be today's COBOL, big, heavy, and used by large unfriendly corporations who run programming sweat-shops. I think we are at a difficult time of flux in technology, and it might be too easy to blame WO and say it's problems are that it's not open source. No this is just a difficult job, fraught with dangers. Ian On 03/10/2007, at 11:08 PM, Christian Trotobas wrote: One more crucial point for some companies : as Andrus pointed, there have been no roadmap for years. The only feedback some companies had, was: tools are getting dropped one by one. Ok, everybody knows that eclipse/wolips is far better than PB and Co. But some huge companies had been explained in the past that one of the strengths of WO was its set of dev tools; therefore, they watch the "strengths" go away one by one. Last but not least: JavaClient is EOL, not because of the technology itself, but because of the tool (IB) is not supported anymore. As Stephane pointed earlier, it has not been announced last year ! Now, say you are a company who did invest 6000 man/days in javaclient. Say after the announcement of the last year, you invested 2000 more days in business and functional improvment because you were thinking that it wil remain supported at least enough to get your ROI. And finally, say you read that in a very soon future, not even with a Mac, you cant' extend (and somehow maintain) this 8000 days apps anymore? I guess you might be upset, the less to say. And less confident in the services companies who actual did the job. Then, facing the cruel reality, you, as a company, is now asking for any kind of guarantee that it will not happen anymore, otherwise you drop the complete line of WO apps asap, to secure the future needs of your business. In that position, opensource is one of the guarantee you might think about. And it is not a new awaited replacement for JavaClient that would change your mind, since there is no official roadmap and it is yet another 'best kept secret of blah blah' and then nobody is allowed to tell you that in late '08 something 'I can't talk about' will be available, but, yep, you will have to redevelop 70% more or less of the whole... FYI, this a real story, and there are others out there, with or without JC involve. There is nothing worst to fight than doubt. Clear roadmap is a must. Opensource is a big plus. Now, this said, I deeply think that the actual WOTeam in Apple is doing a good job, and the direction seems more readable to me that it used to be. Same comments for Wonder. But this opensource story is not between those who didn't get the picture and those who are; they are real needs under, though opensource will never be the ultimate panacea. Regards, Christian Trotobas http://www.intellicore.net Le 3 oct. 07 à 13:22, mike deavila a écrit : I have used WO since 1996 (when it was NeXT). In the early days, Apple had one major release after another. Apple has not had a major release or upgrade with new features in years. If you look at what others are doing, .NET and flex and the others... WO looks less attractive everyday. Sure EOF was nice and the way it all worked together was great but now other technologies have a lot of nice features WO does not have and the way WO development is going, it will most likely never have. In fact, they are supporting less tools and requiring developers to seek tools, UI widgets, features, and support elsewhere. I'm not saying the answer is open source, however Apple development is not the answer either. WO is Apple's and Apple could be the answer but Apple is clearing choosing not. mike On Oct 3, 2007, at 3:42 AM, Miguel Arroz wrote: Hi! I know people who develop on Windows today, no problems. I know people who develop on Linux, they way the only problem is that EOGenerator does not run, but a) EOGenerator is not even made by Apple, and 2) There is a Java replacement on Wonder, I think, although I'm not sure. Also, you don't need an xServe to deploy. People are using Linux, FreeBSD, Solaris, with no problems at all. It's Java. That's the point! This being said, I think that if your client wants to abandon WO, the problem is not in WO, but in your client. Apple may not officially support non-Mac platforms, but we know it works, and at least Apple offers official support for their platform. Look at the open source stuff. Do they offer support for anything at all? No. If you can make it work, cool, if not,
Re: WO(Re)petition STOP!!
AMEN BROTHER!! Begin forwarded message: Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 09:25:52 -0400 From: Ken Anderson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: WO(Re)petition STOP!! To: Christian Trotobas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> OK - this needs to stop - I'm very close to stopping my subscription to this list, and I'm sure other people out there that help occasionally (or a lot) will stop subscribing as well. TAKE THIS TO TALK - OR BETTER YETJUST STOP! Ken __alex cone ceo codefab inc 212 465-8484 x101 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.codefab.com If you are not living on the edge, you are taking up too much space. ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: WO(Re)petition
Think Different : Please Opensource WebObjects Because, today, in France, it is almost impossible to sell any software based on proprietary tools to public institutions (education for example), when there are so many open source alternatives... Open source WO or we will have to stop using it! JPM ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: WO(Re)petition STOP!!
OK - this needs to stop - I'm very close to stopping my subscription to this list, and I'm sure other people out there that help occasionally (or a lot) will stop subscribing as well. TAKE THIS TO TALK - OR BETTER YETJUST STOP! Ken On Oct 3, 2007, at 9:08 AM, Christian Trotobas wrote: One more crucial point for some companies : as Andrus pointed, there have been no roadmap for years. The only feedback some companies had, was: tools are getting dropped one by one. Ok, everybody knows that eclipse/wolips is far better than PB and Co. But some huge companies had been explained in the past that one of the strengths of WO was its set of dev tools; therefore, they watch the "strengths" go away one by one. Last but not least: JavaClient is EOL, not because of the technology itself, but because of the tool (IB) is not supported anymore. As Stephane pointed earlier, it has not been announced last year ! Now, say you are a company who did invest 6000 man/days in javaclient. Say after the announcement of the last year, you invested 2000 more days in business and functional improvment because you were thinking that it wil remain supported at least enough to get your ROI. And finally, say you read that in a very soon future, not even with a Mac, you cant' extend (and somehow maintain) this 8000 days apps anymore? I guess you might be upset, the less to say. And less confident in the services companies who actual did the job. Then, facing the cruel reality, you, as a company, is now asking for any kind of guarantee that it will not happen anymore, otherwise you drop the complete line of WO apps asap, to secure the future needs of your business. In that position, opensource is one of the guarantee you might think about. And it is not a new awaited replacement for JavaClient that would change your mind, since there is no official roadmap and it is yet another 'best kept secret of blah blah' and then nobody is allowed to tell you that in late '08 something 'I can't talk about' will be available, but, yep, you will have to redevelop 70% more or less of the whole... FYI, this a real story, and there are others out there, with or without JC involve. There is nothing worst to fight than doubt. Clear roadmap is a must. Opensource is a big plus. Now, this said, I deeply think that the actual WOTeam in Apple is doing a good job, and the direction seems more readable to me that it used to be. Same comments for Wonder. But this opensource story is not between those who didn't get the picture and those who are; they are real needs under, though opensource will never be the ultimate panacea. Regards, Christian Trotobas http://www.intellicore.net Le 3 oct. 07 à 13:22, mike deavila a écrit : I have used WO since 1996 (when it was NeXT). In the early days, Apple had one major release after another. Apple has not had a major release or upgrade with new features in years. If you look at what others are doing, .NET and flex and the others... WO looks less attractive everyday. Sure EOF was nice and the way it all worked together was great but now other technologies have a lot of nice features WO does not have and the way WO development is going, it will most likely never have. In fact, they are supporting less tools and requiring developers to seek tools, UI widgets, features, and support elsewhere. I'm not saying the answer is open source, however Apple development is not the answer either. WO is Apple's and Apple could be the answer but Apple is clearing choosing not. mike On Oct 3, 2007, at 3:42 AM, Miguel Arroz wrote: Hi! I know people who develop on Windows today, no problems. I know people who develop on Linux, they way the only problem is that EOGenerator does not run, but a) EOGenerator is not even made by Apple, and 2) There is a Java replacement on Wonder, I think, although I'm not sure. Also, you don't need an xServe to deploy. People are using Linux, FreeBSD, Solaris, with no problems at all. It's Java. That's the point! This being said, I think that if your client wants to abandon WO, the problem is not in WO, but in your client. Apple may not officially support non-Mac platforms, but we know it works, and at least Apple offers official support for their platform. Look at the open source stuff. Do they offer support for anything at all? No. If you can make it work, cool, if not, who cares. WebKit is a different story, but even WebKit only became anything serious after Apple "closed-sourced" it for a long time, and worked alone, using their own guidelines, orientation, talent and strategy to build a decent product. They only open sourced it after being "good enough", and because legally they really had to. When you say "I know many developpers that wil be back on the WO side, if Apple opensource WO, but they are currently using uggly technology, just
Re: WO(Re)petition
One more crucial point for some companies : as Andrus pointed, there have been no roadmap for years. The only feedback some companies had, was: tools are getting dropped one by one. Ok, everybody knows that eclipse/wolips is far better than PB and Co. But some huge companies had been explained in the past that one of the strengths of WO was its set of dev tools; therefore, they watch the "strengths" go away one by one. Last but not least: JavaClient is EOL, not because of the technology itself, but because of the tool (IB) is not supported anymore. As Stephane pointed earlier, it has not been announced last year ! Now, say you are a company who did invest 6000 man/days in javaclient. Say after the announcement of the last year, you invested 2000 more days in business and functional improvment because you were thinking that it wil remain supported at least enough to get your ROI. And finally, say you read that in a very soon future, not even with a Mac, you cant' extend (and somehow maintain) this 8000 days apps anymore? I guess you might be upset, the less to say. And less confident in the services companies who actual did the job. Then, facing the cruel reality, you, as a company, is now asking for any kind of guarantee that it will not happen anymore, otherwise you drop the complete line of WO apps asap, to secure the future needs of your business. In that position, opensource is one of the guarantee you might think about. And it is not a new awaited replacement for JavaClient that would change your mind, since there is no official roadmap and it is yet another 'best kept secret of blah blah' and then nobody is allowed to tell you that in late '08 something 'I can't talk about' will be available, but, yep, you will have to redevelop 70% more or less of the whole... FYI, this a real story, and there are others out there, with or without JC involve. There is nothing worst to fight than doubt. Clear roadmap is a must. Opensource is a big plus. Now, this said, I deeply think that the actual WOTeam in Apple is doing a good job, and the direction seems more readable to me that it used to be. Same comments for Wonder. But this opensource story is not between those who didn't get the picture and those who are; they are real needs under, though opensource will never be the ultimate panacea. Regards, Christian Trotobas http://www.intellicore.net Le 3 oct. 07 à 13:22, mike deavila a écrit : I have used WO since 1996 (when it was NeXT). In the early days, Apple had one major release after another. Apple has not had a major release or upgrade with new features in years. If you look at what others are doing, .NET and flex and the others... WO looks less attractive everyday. Sure EOF was nice and the way it all worked together was great but now other technologies have a lot of nice features WO does not have and the way WO development is going, it will most likely never have. In fact, they are supporting less tools and requiring developers to seek tools, UI widgets, features, and support elsewhere. I'm not saying the answer is open source, however Apple development is not the answer either. WO is Apple's and Apple could be the answer but Apple is clearing choosing not. mike On Oct 3, 2007, at 3:42 AM, Miguel Arroz wrote: Hi! I know people who develop on Windows today, no problems. I know people who develop on Linux, they way the only problem is that EOGenerator does not run, but a) EOGenerator is not even made by Apple, and 2) There is a Java replacement on Wonder, I think, although I'm not sure. Also, you don't need an xServe to deploy. People are using Linux, FreeBSD, Solaris, with no problems at all. It's Java. That's the point! This being said, I think that if your client wants to abandon WO, the problem is not in WO, but in your client. Apple may not officially support non-Mac platforms, but we know it works, and at least Apple offers official support for their platform. Look at the open source stuff. Do they offer support for anything at all? No. If you can make it work, cool, if not, who cares. WebKit is a different story, but even WebKit only became anything serious after Apple "closed-sourced" it for a long time, and worked alone, using their own guidelines, orientation, talent and strategy to build a decent product. They only open sourced it after being "good enough", and because legally they really had to. When you say "I know many developpers that wil be back on the WO side, if Apple opensource WO, but they are currently using uggly technology, just for eating.", what are the arguments they present? It's not enough to say "oh, i don't use WO because it's not open-source.". They must say WHY. Open-source originally was a good ideia for some kind of projects, but it has a lot of drawbacks, specially when you look at the quality of the produ
Re: WO(Re)petition
Hi Miguel, answer below Le 3 oct. 07 à 12:42, Miguel Arroz a écrit : Hi! I know people who develop on Windows today, no problems. I know people who develop on Linux, they way the only problem is that EOGenerator does not run, but a) EOGenerator is not even made by Apple, and 2) There is a Java replacement on Wonder, I think, although I'm not sure. Also, you don't need an xServe to deploy. People are using Linux, FreeBSD, Solaris, with no problems at all. It's Java. That's the point! Yes I know but it's depend the kind of client. I have spend many years with a big one. The 5'th european inssurance company, and IBM is everywhere with WebSphere, there 's a lot of lobbying inside to kill WO. In this kind of client, you simply can't say them : the product is no more supported on any other platform than MacOS X servers, it works, but not garanteed, and we haven't got the source. This being said, I think that if your client wants to abandon WO, the problem is not in WO, but in your client. Not agree, the french WO market is so small, that every client leaving WO is a problem, It's a problem for the client but also for Apple, I think. Apple may not officially support non-Mac platforms, but we know it works, and at least Apple offers official support for their platform. Look at the open source stuff. Do they offer support for anything at all? No. Because they are opensource, if you choose an opensource framework, it's on your own risk. If you can make it work, cool, if not, who cares. WebKit is a different story, but even WebKit only became anything serious after Apple "closed-sourced" it for a long time, and worked alone, using their own guidelines, orientation, talent and strategy to build a decent product. They only open sourced it after being "good enough", and because legally they really had to. Ok, but what did you mean ? WO is not actually clean enough ? We can wait if needed. When you say "I know many developpers that wil be back on the WO side, if Apple opensource WO, but they are currently using uggly technology, just for eating.", what are the arguments they present? I just prefer a growing community , I think it's a good signal for a technology. It's not enough to say "oh, i don't use WO because it's not open- source.". I've never said something like that, but many clients , yes. They must say WHY. Open-source originally was a good ideia for some kind of projects, but it has a lot of drawbacks, yes you'are right again, but Apple is doing big bussiness, I hope they can afford a team for that. specially when you look at the quality of the products, because a lof of people work on it and because many times there's not a roadmap for the product. Unfortunately it has become a comercial buzzword (how ironic, isn't it?), and many people say they will only use open source stuff because it's an hype, they don't really know why. I don't call that "thinking different", I don't even call that "thinking". That's why I asked for argumentation to your petition. WHY do you want it to be open-sourced. Why ? to gain market share rather than loosing. Did you ever try to run WO on AIX platform ? I'm not directly speaking for myself, I'm just trying to do business with a WO(nderfull) technology. Clients are more and more afraid, tools are deprecated, we loose mulitplatform support ... and last news : Did you know that JavaClient is just supported on Leopard, but you can't anymore develop with JavaClient ? Personally I don't care, I've choose FLEX and AIR, but some clients are totaly disappointed. ( Many years of work ) Opensource is simply a kind of security for client, even if it's an illusion, artefact, it's more easy to say them don't be affraid, we have source we can try to run WO on AIX for example or whatever they wants. What will we win Most of fortune 500, 1000 would never choose a product not certified on any other platform than Mac servers. I don't want stay in small business. We will win many developers and I think it's really important. and loose with it. I'm waiting! Stephane Yours Miguel Arroz On 2007/10/03, at 09:17, Stephane Guyot wrote: Ian, David, Miguel ... I can't agree with you. My last client, is looking for WO replacement because of lack of windows and linux support. Ten years of WO development without roadmap, multi to mono platform support, Actually I'm just trying to convince my new client to use WO, we develops on Mac and windows, we are using FLEX, ( opensource, multiplatform ...), but I can't them : now we just needs to drop server and buy Xserve :-) I simply hate, J2EE , Spring, Struts, Hibernate I want to continue with WO, but not at home in my job. Stephane PS : WebKit is open source and use by many companies, Nokia, Adobe for AIR, it's not a good idea ? I know many developpers that wil be back on the WO side, if Apple
Re: WO(Re)petition
Hi! On 2007/10/03, at 12:13, Andrus Adamchik wrote: Was? It is still the best idea for the 90% of the ubiquitous stuff. Even in the WO world, the open source components make up a significant chunk of the stack: OS (sometimes), Tomcat (sometimes), Wonder, WOLips, Ant, pdf frameworks, AJAX frameworks, and dozens of others. Yes, but at what cost? Don't get me wrong, I love Wonder, and I respect a lot the people who work on Wonder every day. But let's face it: compare the quality of both projects, WO and Wonder. I did find some stuff on Wonder (specially the qualifiers) that simply didn't work at all, because their author made them for solving it's own problem. I fixed them to solve my own problem, and commited. I'm not sure if they work on the general case, and I suspect they don't. Now compare it with Apple's qualifiers... they just work. This is what I'm talking about: if I have to choose between a slow and stable development and a quick but not-so-good development, I choose the first. Yes, I'm an old school kind of guy, but I like things that work. but it has a lot of drawbacks, specially when you look at the quality of the products, because a lof of people work on it and because many times there's not a roadmap for the product. Is there a roadmap for WO? Again, not all projects are created equal. Just like with commercial software, you have to apply your intelligence to make the right choice. As you see I haven't argued for or against open sourcing WO, but let's be reasonable and not generalize too much. It's true, WO doesn't have a (public, at least) roadmap. And there are a lot of crappy comercial software, and some good quality open source software. But my point is, what will open source bring to us that is any good? You mentioned Wonder features. What's important there is the features themselves, not the fact that they are open source. Who cares if they are open source or not? I want them to work, that's all. Again, look at Cocoa. Is it open source? No. Anyone cares? No. That's why I prefer the approach of convincing Apple to develop WO actively, instead of convincing them to open source WO, specially because they will NOT do it. Yours Miguel Arroz Miguel Arroz http://www.terminalapp.net http://www.ipragma.com smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: WO(Re)petition
On 3-Oct-07, at 7:22 AM, mike deavila wrote: I have used WO since 1996 (when it was NeXT). In the early days, Apple had one major release after another. Apple has not had a major release or upgrade with new features in years. If you look at what others... Folks, Please, We've all heard the arguments, for and against, countless times, minds are generally made up, and Apple is not listening here. Take this to talk... ;david -- David LeBer Codeferous Software 'co-def-er-ous' adj. Literally 'code-bearing' site: http://codeferous.com blog: http://davidleber.net profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidleber -- Toronto Area Cocoa / WebObjects developers group: http://tacow.org ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: WO(Re)petition
I have used WO since 1996 (when it was NeXT). In the early days, Apple had one major release after another. Apple has not had a major release or upgrade with new features in years. If you look at what others are doing, .NET and flex and the others... WO looks less attractive everyday. Sure EOF was nice and the way it all worked together was great but now other technologies have a lot of nice features WO does not have and the way WO development is going, it will most likely never have. In fact, they are supporting less tools and requiring developers to seek tools, UI widgets, features, and support elsewhere. I'm not saying the answer is open source, however Apple development is not the answer either. WO is Apple's and Apple could be the answer but Apple is clearing choosing not. mike On Oct 3, 2007, at 3:42 AM, Miguel Arroz wrote: Hi! I know people who develop on Windows today, no problems. I know people who develop on Linux, they way the only problem is that EOGenerator does not run, but a) EOGenerator is not even made by Apple, and 2) There is a Java replacement on Wonder, I think, although I'm not sure. Also, you don't need an xServe to deploy. People are using Linux, FreeBSD, Solaris, with no problems at all. It's Java. That's the point! This being said, I think that if your client wants to abandon WO, the problem is not in WO, but in your client. Apple may not officially support non-Mac platforms, but we know it works, and at least Apple offers official support for their platform. Look at the open source stuff. Do they offer support for anything at all? No. If you can make it work, cool, if not, who cares. WebKit is a different story, but even WebKit only became anything serious after Apple "closed-sourced" it for a long time, and worked alone, using their own guidelines, orientation, talent and strategy to build a decent product. They only open sourced it after being "good enough", and because legally they really had to. When you say "I know many developpers that wil be back on the WO side, if Apple opensource WO, but they are currently using uggly technology, just for eating.", what are the arguments they present? It's not enough to say "oh, i don't use WO because it's not open- source.". They must say WHY. Open-source originally was a good ideia for some kind of projects, but it has a lot of drawbacks, specially when you look at the quality of the products, because a lof of people work on it and because many times there's not a roadmap for the product. Unfortunately it has become a comercial buzzword (how ironic, isn't it?), and many people say they will only use open source stuff because it's an hype, they don't really know why. I don't call that "thinking different", I don't even call that "thinking". That's why I asked for argumentation to your petition. WHY do you want it to be open-sourced. What will we win and loose with it. I'm waiting! Yours Miguel Arroz On 2007/10/03, at 09:17, Stephane Guyot wrote: Ian, David, Miguel ... I can't agree with you. My last client, is looking for WO replacement because of lack of windows and linux support. Ten years of WO development without roadmap, multi to mono platform support, Actually I'm just trying to convince my new client to use WO, we develops on Mac and windows, we are using FLEX, ( opensource, multiplatform ...), but I can't them : now we just needs to drop server and buy Xserve :-) I simply hate, J2EE , Spring, Struts, Hibernate I want to continue with WO, but not at home in my job. Stephane PS : WebKit is open source and use by many companies, Nokia, Adobe for AIR, it's not a good idea ? I know many developpers that wil be back on the WO side, if Apple opensource WO, but they are currently using uggly technology, just for eating. Le 3 oct. 07 à 02:51, Ian Joyner a écrit : I agree – calling for open source is not thinking different, it's thinking the same. This industry is too full of popular solutions that don't really address the real problem. I think that's what Steve means when he says think different, address the problem and the need. I don't think open source will solve WO's problems, that doesn't mean that I don't think it would be nice to be able to browse through the code, but evaluate what the problems are and then solve those problems. I think Pierre's group at Apple are doing that. Ian On 03/10/2007, at 7:13 AM, David LeBer wrote: On 2-Oct-07, at 5:04 PM, Miguel Arroz wrote: Hi! Think different: please present any valid arguments to sustain your request. Think different: please request what you want through the proper channels. People are trying to create a WO Community, being the communication between WO users and Apple a goal. If you want to help and to make your voice be heard, you should help building the WO Community, instead of floodi
Re: WO(Re)petition
On Oct 3, 2007, at 1:42 PM, Miguel Arroz wrote: When you say "I know many developpers that wil be back on the WO side, if Apple opensource WO, but they are currently using uggly technology, just for eating." I think they just don't know any better. Not all open source projects are born equal. There are a lot of choices out there, and a number of them are very high-quality (e.g. I have no reason to think that Cayenne is in any way inferior to EOF at this point). Open-source originally was a good ideia for some kind of projects, Was? It is still the best idea for the 90% of the ubiquitous stuff. Even in the WO world, the open source components make up a significant chunk of the stack: OS (sometimes), Tomcat (sometimes), Wonder, WOLips, Ant, pdf frameworks, AJAX frameworks, and dozens of others. but it has a lot of drawbacks, specially when you look at the quality of the products, because a lof of people work on it and because many times there's not a roadmap for the product. Is there a roadmap for WO? Again, not all projects are created equal. Just like with commercial software, you have to apply your intelligence to make the right choice. As you see I haven't argued for or against open sourcing WO, but let's be reasonable and not generalize too much. Andrus Adamchik ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: WO(Re)petition
Hi! I know people who develop on Windows today, no problems. I know people who develop on Linux, they way the only problem is that EOGenerator does not run, but a) EOGenerator is not even made by Apple, and 2) There is a Java replacement on Wonder, I think, although I'm not sure. Also, you don't need an xServe to deploy. People are using Linux, FreeBSD, Solaris, with no problems at all. It's Java. That's the point! This being said, I think that if your client wants to abandon WO, the problem is not in WO, but in your client. Apple may not officially support non-Mac platforms, but we know it works, and at least Apple offers official support for their platform. Look at the open source stuff. Do they offer support for anything at all? No. If you can make it work, cool, if not, who cares. WebKit is a different story, but even WebKit only became anything serious after Apple "closed-sourced" it for a long time, and worked alone, using their own guidelines, orientation, talent and strategy to build a decent product. They only open sourced it after being "good enough", and because legally they really had to. When you say "I know many developpers that wil be back on the WO side, if Apple opensource WO, but they are currently using uggly technology, just for eating.", what are the arguments they present? It's not enough to say "oh, i don't use WO because it's not open- source.". They must say WHY. Open-source originally was a good ideia for some kind of projects, but it has a lot of drawbacks, specially when you look at the quality of the products, because a lof of people work on it and because many times there's not a roadmap for the product. Unfortunately it has become a comercial buzzword (how ironic, isn't it?), and many people say they will only use open source stuff because it's an hype, they don't really know why. I don't call that "thinking different", I don't even call that "thinking". That's why I asked for argumentation to your petition. WHY do you want it to be open-sourced. What will we win and loose with it. I'm waiting! Yours Miguel Arroz On 2007/10/03, at 09:17, Stephane Guyot wrote: Ian, David, Miguel ... I can't agree with you. My last client, is looking for WO replacement because of lack of windows and linux support. Ten years of WO development without roadmap, multi to mono platform support, Actually I'm just trying to convince my new client to use WO, we develops on Mac and windows, we are using FLEX, ( opensource, multiplatform ...), but I can't them : now we just needs to drop server and buy Xserve :-) I simply hate, J2EE , Spring, Struts, Hibernate I want to continue with WO, but not at home in my job. Stephane PS : WebKit is open source and use by many companies, Nokia, Adobe for AIR, it's not a good idea ? I know many developpers that wil be back on the WO side, if Apple opensource WO, but they are currently using uggly technology, just for eating. Le 3 oct. 07 à 02:51, Ian Joyner a écrit : I agree – calling for open source is not thinking different, it's thinking the same. This industry is too full of popular solutions that don't really address the real problem. I think that's what Steve means when he says think different, address the problem and the need. I don't think open source will solve WO's problems, that doesn't mean that I don't think it would be nice to be able to browse through the code, but evaluate what the problems are and then solve those problems. I think Pierre's group at Apple are doing that. Ian On 03/10/2007, at 7:13 AM, David LeBer wrote: On 2-Oct-07, at 5:04 PM, Miguel Arroz wrote: Hi! Think different: please present any valid arguments to sustain your request. Think different: please request what you want through the proper channels. People are trying to create a WO Community, being the communication between WO users and Apple a goal. If you want to help and to make your voice be heard, you should help building the WO Community, instead of flooding the mail-list. Think different: please THINK if open sourcing WO is what you really want. Because what I want is Apple to actively develop it, doing a good job that results in innovative features and QUALITY work, and yes, documented. How many Web frameworks do you know that are innovative, with a solid, very solid code base (with a few bugs, naturally), and well documented... AND OPEN SOURCE? Because I don't know any one. Think different: open source WO clones/copies/alternatives (use whatever pleases you) exist. Do you use them? No. Why? Because WO is still the best. Did being open source helped? I don't think so. Think different: if you REALLY need to look at the WO source, you know you can. Think different: again, stop flooding my mailbox. If you really want to make your point, put together some decent arguments, talk
Re: WO(Re)petition
Ian, David, Miguel ... I can't agree with you. My last client, is looking for WO replacement because of lack of windows and linux support. Ten years of WO development without roadmap, multi to mono platform support, Actually I'm just trying to convince my new client to use WO, we develops on Mac and windows, we are using FLEX, ( opensource, multiplatform ...), but I can't them : now we just needs to drop server and buy Xserve :-) I simply hate, J2EE , Spring, Struts, Hibernate I want to continue with WO, but not at home in my job. Stephane PS : WebKit is open source and use by many companies, Nokia, Adobe for AIR, it's not a good idea ? I know many developpers that wil be back on the WO side, if Apple opensource WO, but they are currently using uggly technology, just for eating. Le 3 oct. 07 à 02:51, Ian Joyner a écrit : I agree – calling for open source is not thinking different, it's thinking the same. This industry is too full of popular solutions that don't really address the real problem. I think that's what Steve means when he says think different, address the problem and the need. I don't think open source will solve WO's problems, that doesn't mean that I don't think it would be nice to be able to browse through the code, but evaluate what the problems are and then solve those problems. I think Pierre's group at Apple are doing that. Ian On 03/10/2007, at 7:13 AM, David LeBer wrote: On 2-Oct-07, at 5:04 PM, Miguel Arroz wrote: Hi! Think different: please present any valid arguments to sustain your request. Think different: please request what you want through the proper channels. People are trying to create a WO Community, being the communication between WO users and Apple a goal. If you want to help and to make your voice be heard, you should help building the WO Community, instead of flooding the mail-list. Think different: please THINK if open sourcing WO is what you really want. Because what I want is Apple to actively develop it, doing a good job that results in innovative features and QUALITY work, and yes, documented. How many Web frameworks do you know that are innovative, with a solid, very solid code base (with a few bugs, naturally), and well documented... AND OPEN SOURCE? Because I don't know any one. Think different: open source WO clones/copies/alternatives (use whatever pleases you) exist. Do you use them? No. Why? Because WO is still the best. Did being open source helped? I don't think so. Think different: if you REALLY need to look at the WO source, you know you can. Think different: again, stop flooding my mailbox. If you really want to make your point, put together some decent arguments, talk with the people who are working to build the WO Community, and use them to get in touch with Apple. I don't mean to be rude, but this is getting a little childish... I was just about to click send on a message that said the same thing... OK, not the same thing, Miguel said it better :-) ;david -- David LeBer Codeferous Software 'co-def-er-ous' adj. Literally 'code-bearing' site: http://codeferous.com blog: http://davidleber.net profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidleber -- Toronto Area Cocoa / WebObjects developers group: http://tacow.org ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/ian.joyner% 40sportstec.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/ stephane.guyot11%40wanadoo.fr This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: WO(Re)petition
I agree – calling for open source is not thinking different, it's thinking the same. This industry is too full of popular solutions that don't really address the real problem. I think that's what Steve means when he says think different, address the problem and the need. I don't think open source will solve WO's problems, that doesn't mean that I don't think it would be nice to be able to browse through the code, but evaluate what the problems are and then solve those problems. I think Pierre's group at Apple are doing that. Ian On 03/10/2007, at 7:13 AM, David LeBer wrote: On 2-Oct-07, at 5:04 PM, Miguel Arroz wrote: Hi! Think different: please present any valid arguments to sustain your request. Think different: please request what you want through the proper channels. People are trying to create a WO Community, being the communication between WO users and Apple a goal. If you want to help and to make your voice be heard, you should help building the WO Community, instead of flooding the mail-list. Think different: please THINK if open sourcing WO is what you really want. Because what I want is Apple to actively develop it, doing a good job that results in innovative features and QUALITY work, and yes, documented. How many Web frameworks do you know that are innovative, with a solid, very solid code base (with a few bugs, naturally), and well documented... AND OPEN SOURCE? Because I don't know any one. Think different: open source WO clones/copies/alternatives (use whatever pleases you) exist. Do you use them? No. Why? Because WO is still the best. Did being open source helped? I don't think so. Think different: if you REALLY need to look at the WO source, you know you can. Think different: again, stop flooding my mailbox. If you really want to make your point, put together some decent arguments, talk with the people who are working to build the WO Community, and use them to get in touch with Apple. I don't mean to be rude, but this is getting a little childish... I was just about to click send on a message that said the same thing... OK, not the same thing, Miguel said it better :-) ;david -- David LeBer Codeferous Software 'co-def-er-ous' adj. Literally 'code-bearing' site: http://codeferous.com blog: http://davidleber.net profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidleber -- Toronto Area Cocoa / WebObjects developers group: http://tacow.org ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/ian.joyner% 40sportstec.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: WO(Re)petition
On 2-Oct-07, at 5:04 PM, Miguel Arroz wrote: Hi! Think different: please present any valid arguments to sustain your request. Think different: please request what you want through the proper channels. People are trying to create a WO Community, being the communication between WO users and Apple a goal. If you want to help and to make your voice be heard, you should help building the WO Community, instead of flooding the mail-list. Think different: please THINK if open sourcing WO is what you really want. Because what I want is Apple to actively develop it, doing a good job that results in innovative features and QUALITY work, and yes, documented. How many Web frameworks do you know that are innovative, with a solid, very solid code base (with a few bugs, naturally), and well documented... AND OPEN SOURCE? Because I don't know any one. Think different: open source WO clones/copies/alternatives (use whatever pleases you) exist. Do you use them? No. Why? Because WO is still the best. Did being open source helped? I don't think so. Think different: if you REALLY need to look at the WO source, you know you can. Think different: again, stop flooding my mailbox. If you really want to make your point, put together some decent arguments, talk with the people who are working to build the WO Community, and use them to get in touch with Apple. I don't mean to be rude, but this is getting a little childish... I was just about to click send on a message that said the same thing... OK, not the same thing, Miguel said it better :-) ;david -- David LeBer Codeferous Software 'co-def-er-ous' adj. Literally 'code-bearing' site: http://codeferous.com blog: http://davidleber.net profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidleber -- Toronto Area Cocoa / WebObjects developers group: http://tacow.org ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: WO(Re)petition
Hi! Think different: please present any valid arguments to sustain your request. Think different: please request what you want through the proper channels. People are trying to create a WO Community, being the communication between WO users and Apple a goal. If you want to help and to make your voice be heard, you should help building the WO Community, instead of flooding the mail-list. Think different: please THINK if open sourcing WO is what you really want. Because what I want is Apple to actively develop it, doing a good job that results in innovative features and QUALITY work, and yes, documented. How many Web frameworks do you know that are innovative, with a solid, very solid code base (with a few bugs, naturally), and well documented... AND OPEN SOURCE? Because I don't know any one. Think different: open source WO clones/copies/alternatives (use whatever pleases you) exist. Do you use them? No. Why? Because WO is still the best. Did being open source helped? I don't think so. Think different: if you REALLY need to look at the WO source, you know you can. Think different: again, stop flooding my mailbox. If you really want to make your point, put together some decent arguments, talk with the people who are working to build the WO Community, and use them to get in touch with Apple. I don't mean to be rude, but this is getting a little childish... Yours Miguel Arroz Miguel Arroz http://www.terminalapp.net http://www.ipragma.com smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: WO(Re)petition
Think Different : Please Opensource WebObjects ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: WO(Re)petition
Think Different : Please Opensource WebObjects -- Sam Barnum ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: WO(Re)petition
Think Different : Please Opensource WebObjects -- Benoit Cantin ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
WO(Re)petition
Think Different : Please Opensource WebObjects ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: WO(Re)petition
On 2 oct. 07, at 09:24, Stéphan Mertz wrote: Think Different : Please Opensource WebObjects Too late ! we're dropping WO due to the recent lack of windows and linux support. What a shame... ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
WO(Re)petition
Think Different : Please Opensource WebObjects ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
WO(Re)petition
Think Different : Please Opensource WebObjects Stephane ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
