[WikiEducator] Re: another text on OER, but not an OER!!

[Erik Moeller]

FYI, the definition should now be updated as per the discussion we've
had here and on the wiki:

http://freedomdefined.org/Definition

HTH,
Erik

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[WikiEducator] Re: another text on OER, but not an OER!!

[Leigh Blackall]

Hi Leo, just back from a little trip to the mountains... now climbing a
mountain of email!

Your question about: *it prevents by way of stating a principle,
oganisations cashing in on the hard work of OER campaigners.
*
"it" is the Free Cultural Works Definition (FCWD). It is perhaps the only
document at the moment that is useful for distnguishing what IS free and
open and what is not. MIT's Open Courseware are not free cultural works
under that definition. So, the FCWD is a statement of principle, that you
and I will find increasingly useful in exposing what is not actually free
and open.*
*
On Sat, Sep 20, 2008 at 1:40 PM, Brent <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> offtopic slightly ... but there's an inspirational interview with Leo and
> Alexander Hayes that you can check out here for a bit of context:
>
> http://www.archive.org/search.php?query=flnw08
>
> brent.
>
> On Sat, Sep 20, 2008 at 1:17 PM, Wong Leo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> 2008/9/19 Alex P. Real <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>
>>>  Hi Leo
>>>
 OER translates differently across languages and cultures so you can't
 really expect that Chinese educators adopt a "pure" form. Many worldwide
 (most?) cut & paste from others  as if in a race to "own" and don't give
 back for selfishness ("good these fools do, but I´m too witty to
 share"),fear of plagiarism and else, the original-copy dilemma. At the same
 time these are the people making "open" increase visibility.

>>> Hey AP
>>
>> First first of all , Happy Birthday !! in China , if you are having
>> birthday , you need to eat noodles which means you can live longer so try to
>> eat some :) but I am sure you are healthy
>>
>> First of all , the WE , if you put The W upside down , you will get ME :)
>>
>> When I go to eat my lunch everyday I will see the sign WE infront of the
>> cafe near the dorm in my school area in Suzhou where I am :)
>>
>> my questions is What is Pure form of OER ? I have come across a educator
>> here are really advocating OER , she has a wiki , and I registed on her wiki
>> , and doing something for my own class on my User page , something to do
>> with my major ( Psychology ) and she send me a message and told me to stop
>> messing around there ,and told me I am not welcomed there , I was asking
>> Leigh this also , he told me although she own the wiki( pay for the domain
>> etc ) but she doesnot own the content .
>>
>> and then some of other so called Open projects here in China , when I said
>> something from my own perspecitive , if it doesnot fit into their "value " ,
>> and then I will soon kicked out .or noone pay attention to my voice there .
>>
>> Instead I feel connected and being respected in TALO or WE , people like
>> you and Leigh respect who I am , where I come from , they support the WE to
>> support Chinese and any other languages in the world , those are maybe
>> nothing to them ,but I feel like this is the real "Openess " and free soul
>> to me .
>>
>> In Chinese there is a story about Dragon , which said , there was a man
>> who told everyone he really like Dragon , and want to be friend with drgaon
>> , but one day The dragon came to his house ,and he was so afraid that he
>> hided himself and don't want to meet the dragon .
>>
>> I think many of people like this man , Open is not what you say , but what
>> you do
>>
>> tks again Happy B day
>>
>> Leo
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> It's the sum of nobodies that makes this work, Leo.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Alex
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> --
> http://digitalsynapse.co.nz
> --
>
> >
>


-- 
--
Leigh Blackall
+64(0)21736539
skype - leigh_blackall
SL - Leroy Goalpost
http://learnonline.wordpress.com

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[WikiEducator] Re: another text on OER, but not an OER!!

[Brent]

offtopic slightly ... but there's an inspirational interview with Leo and
Alexander Hayes that you can check out here for a bit of context:

http://www.archive.org/search.php?query=flnw08

brent.

On Sat, Sep 20, 2008 at 1:17 PM, Wong Leo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>
>
> 2008/9/19 Alex P. Real <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>>  Hi Leo
>>
>>> OER translates differently across languages and cultures so you can't
>>> really expect that Chinese educators adopt a "pure" form. Many worldwide
>>> (most?) cut & paste from others  as if in a race to "own" and don't give
>>> back for selfishness ("good these fools do, but I´m too witty to
>>> share"),fear of plagiarism and else, the original-copy dilemma. At the same
>>> time these are the people making "open" increase visibility.
>>>
>> Hey AP
>
> First first of all , Happy Birthday !! in China , if you are having
> birthday , you need to eat noodles which means you can live longer so try to
> eat some :) but I am sure you are healthy
>
> First of all , the WE , if you put The W upside down , you will get ME :)
>
> When I go to eat my lunch everyday I will see the sign WE infront of the
> cafe near the dorm in my school area in Suzhou where I am :)
>
> my questions is What is Pure form of OER ? I have come across a educator
> here are really advocating OER , she has a wiki , and I registed on her wiki
> , and doing something for my own class on my User page , something to do
> with my major ( Psychology ) and she send me a message and told me to stop
> messing around there ,and told me I am not welcomed there , I was asking
> Leigh this also , he told me although she own the wiki( pay for the domain
> etc ) but she doesnot own the content .
>
> and then some of other so called Open projects here in China , when I said
> something from my own perspecitive , if it doesnot fit into their "value " ,
> and then I will soon kicked out .or noone pay attention to my voice there .
>
> Instead I feel connected and being respected in TALO or WE , people like
> you and Leigh respect who I am , where I come from , they support the WE to
> support Chinese and any other languages in the world , those are maybe
> nothing to them ,but I feel like this is the real "Openess " and free soul
> to me .
>
> In Chinese there is a story about Dragon , which said , there was a man who
> told everyone he really like Dragon , and want to be friend with drgaon ,
> but one day The dragon came to his house ,and he was so afraid that he hided
> himself and don't want to meet the dragon .
>
> I think many of people like this man , Open is not what you say , but what
> you do
>
> tks again Happy B day
>
> Leo
>
>>
>>
>> It's the sum of nobodies that makes this work, Leo.
>>
>>
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>>
>>
>> Alex
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> >
>


-- 
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http://digitalsynapse.co.nz
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[WikiEducator] Re: another text on OER, but not an OER!!

[Wong Leo]

2008/9/19 Alex P. Real <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

>  Hi Leo
>
>> OER translates differently across languages and cultures so you can't
>> really expect that Chinese educators adopt a "pure" form. Many worldwide
>> (most?) cut & paste from others  as if in a race to "own" and don't give
>> back for selfishness ("good these fools do, but I´m too witty to
>> share"),fear of plagiarism and else, the original-copy dilemma. At the same
>> time these are the people making "open" increase visibility.
>>
> Hey AP

First first of all , Happy Birthday !! in China , if you are having birthday
, you need to eat noodles which means you can live longer so try to eat some
:) but I am sure you are healthy

First of all , the WE , if you put The W upside down , you will get ME :)

When I go to eat my lunch everyday I will see the sign WE infront of the
cafe near the dorm in my school area in Suzhou where I am :)

my questions is What is Pure form of OER ? I have come across a educator
here are really advocating OER , she has a wiki , and I registed on her wiki
, and doing something for my own class on my User page , something to do
with my major ( Psychology ) and she send me a message and told me to stop
messing around there ,and told me I am not welcomed there , I was asking
Leigh this also , he told me although she own the wiki( pay for the domain
etc ) but she doesnot own the content .

and then some of other so called Open projects here in China , when I said
something from my own perspecitive , if it doesnot fit into their "value " ,
and then I will soon kicked out .or noone pay attention to my voice there .

Instead I feel connected and being respected in TALO or WE , people like you
and Leigh respect who I am , where I come from , they support the WE to
support Chinese and any other languages in the world , those are maybe
nothing to them ,but I feel like this is the real "Openess " and free soul
to me .

In Chinese there is a story about Dragon , which said , there was a man who
told everyone he really like Dragon , and want to be friend with drgaon ,
but one day The dragon came to his house ,and he was so afraid that he hided
himself and don't want to meet the dragon .

I think many of people like this man , Open is not what you say , but what
you do

tks again Happy B day

Leo

>
>
> It's the sum of nobodies that makes this work, Leo.
>
>
>
> Cheers,
>
>
>
> Alex
>
>
>
>
>

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[WikiEducator] Re: another text on OER, but not an OER!!

[Alex P. Real]

Hi Leo,

 

I’m missing the context so can’t really help L, but I don’t think  the 
distinction is as easy as “real” vs “fake” OER.  I guess Leigh refers to the 
paradox of companies/individuals making selfish profit out of collaborative 
efforts which seems to relate to “gratis” versus “libre”. We can  dislike the 
use some make of OER, but this seems the core paradox of aiming at 
“freedom/openness”. If we start to put limits, aren’t we  subverting the free 
movement philosophy? More and more firms are playing with “open” to improve 
product definition/marketing (e.g. crowdsourcing). Participation and user 
experience can be appealing but royalties go to the firm.

 

OER translates differently across languages and cultures so you can’t really 
expect that Chinese educators adopt a “pure” form. Many worldwide (most?) cut & 
paste from others  as if in a race to “own” and don’t give back for selfishness 
(“good these fools do, but I´m too witty to share”),fear of plagiarism and 
else, the original-copy dilemma. At the same time these are the people making 
“open” increase visibility. 

 

It’s the sum of nobodies that makes this work, Leo. 

 

Cheers,

 

Alex

 

 

 

De: wikieducator@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] En nombre de Wong 
Leo
Enviado el: viernes, 19 de septiembre de 2008 3:00
Para: wikieducator@googlegroups.com
Asunto: [WikiEducator] Re: another text on OER, but not an OER!!

 

it prevents by way of stating a principle, oganisations cashing in on the hard 
work of OER campaigners.

Hey Leigh , I am translating now , but Not sure what you mean by saying the 
above , 

The reason I seemingly make a little bit big of your articles is coz Some of 
educator in China are doing the similar thing now , publishing , doing 
something so called " OER "but really are NOT ,

If WE can support Chinese in the future , I do hope that WE can use its 
platform to help China to publish more of really OER work at this platform 
,instead of some Fake ones 

again , I am just nobody  ,

if possible could you send the Suspicious on MIT that article also , so I can 
get your background 

TKS

Leo 

2008/9/18 Leigh Blackall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Its really nothing special Leo.. you're probably expecting better :)


When's an OER not an OER?


September 18, 2008 in Uncategorized 
<http://learnonline.wordpress.com/category/uncategorized/>  

 <http://flickr.com/photos/leighblackall/501740058/in/set-72157600223371021/> 
¡Error! Nombre de archivo no especificado.When MIT publish one it seems.

MIT have published a text called Opening Up 
<http://mitpress.mit.edu/opening_up_education/>  Education, but under a 
copyright license that is one step short of All Rights Reserved. MIT is just 
not getting the message are they? They are not really about open education at 
all!

On the other hand, Utah State University in collaboration with the Commonwealth 
of Learning and individual designers have published the OER Handbook 
<http://www.wikieducator.org/OER_Handbook/educator_version_one> . Available 
under a free and practically nonrestrictive license, in both a wiki and a 
printed and bound text on Lulu.

I like to think that Utah followed Otago Polytechnic's lead when we published 
Ruth Lawson's Anatomy and Physiology of Animals text on Wikibooks 
<http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Anatomy_and_Physiology_of_Animals> , with lesson 
plans and activities on Wikieducator 
<http://www.wikieducator.org/The_Anatomy_and_Physiology_of_Animals> , and a 
printed version on <http://www.lulu.com/content/1920743>  Lulu.com

We are working on a number of other texts as we speak (not to mention videos 
and stuff all over the place!), all of it under CC By.

MIT should stop their work in "open courseware" and "open education" or risk 
influencing a second wave of OER developers to basically construct educational 
resources that may as well be All Rights Reserved and leave us in a position 
not much better than where we started.

Risks like the trend that MIT are setting necessitate a project like the Free 
Cultural Works <http://freedomdefined.org/Definition>  Definition were it sets 
out to clearly delineate what is free and what is restrictive. It prevents by 
way of stating a principle, oganisations cashing in on the hard work of OER 
campaigners.

In my books <http://flickr.com/photos/leighblackall/sets/72157600223371021/> , 
CC By is the only free license.

PS. It was way back in November 2004 we started to get suspicious of MIT 
<http://learnonline.wordpress.com/2004/11/22/suspicions-on-mit-ocw/> 

 

On Thu, Sep 18, 2008 at 8:43 PM, Wong Leo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

yes ,http://yeeyan.com is a website I use to translate the interesting articles 
by English edu blogger into Chinese , I can send your article using google 
document or in their wiki http://pro.yeeyan.com ( where I use to translate the 

[WikiEducator] Re: another text on OER, but not an OER!!

[Wong Leo]

;>  On Thu, Sep 18, 2008 at 6:37 PM, Wong Leo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Dear Leigh ,
>>>>>
>>>>> I have to read your post by using google translation now ,even I could
>>>>> not read it by using proxy , butSO I am reading it in Chinese now !
>>>>>
>>>>> remember I was talking about the dragon story in Chinese , it really
>>>>> bring me back to home
>>>>>
>>>>> If you can ,would you please send me the orignial English version so I
>>>>> can read maybe translation it into Chinese and post it on the web 
>>>>> somewhere
>>>>> so more people can read
>>>>>
>>>>> you are amazing
>>>>>
>>>>> Leo
>>>>>
>>>>> 2008/9/18 Wayne Mackintosh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>>>>
>>>>> Good question,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'd suggest posting that on the freedomdefined site and lets see how
>>>>>> they respond.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>> Wayne
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -Original Message-
>>>>>> From: wikieducator@googlegroups.com on behalf of Leigh Blackall
>>>>>> Sent: Wed 9/17/2008 10:36 PM
>>>>>> To: wikieducator@googlegroups.com
>>>>>> Subject: [WikiEducator] Re: another text on OER, but not an OER!!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, you are right.. I am, as always impatient :)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I wonder though - given that the discussion page shows a fair number
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> unresolved or threads without closure, how we will determine consensus
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> take action on that paragraph...?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, Sep 18, 2008 at 5:06 PM, Wayne Mackintosh <
>>>>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> > Hi Leigh,
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > My own experience with the open movement is that nothing is cut and
>>>>>> dry.
>>>>>> > The success and survival of the top open projects depend on
>>>>>> community
>>>>>> > support, listening and feeling the pulse of the community.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Openness and the willingness to adapt, refine and get better without
>>>>>> > compromising core vales is what feeds and sustains successful open
>>>>>> projects.
>>>>>> > With every open project there is always the opportunity to fork. The
>>>>>> risk
>>>>>> > with forking is the challenge of achieving critical mass for
>>>>>> sustainability.
>>>>>> > It's a self-organising system.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > WikiEducator is an important and significant community in the global
>>>>>> OER
>>>>>> > space -- the fact that Erik has opened the discussion is a testament
>>>>>> to our
>>>>>> > contribution to the freedom culture but also a validation of the
>>>>>> openness of
>>>>>> > the free cultural works definition.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > I don't see this as a "cut and dry" scenario rather an opportunity
>>>>>> to make
>>>>>> > a positive contribution to what we collectively are trying to
>>>>>> achieve. The
>>>>>> > real test will be whether the WikiEducator community and others take
>>>>>> up the
>>>>>> > opportunity in changing the world for the better :-).
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Cheers
>>>>>> > Wayne
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > -Original Message-
>>>>>> > From: wikieducator@googlegroups.com on behalf of Leigh Blackall
>>>>>> > Sent: Wed 9/17/2008 9:35 PM
>>>>>> > To: wikieducator@googlegroups.com
>>>>>> > Subject: [WikiEducator] Re: another text on OER, but not an OER!!
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >

[WikiEducator] Re: another text on OER, but not an OER!!

[Wong Leo]

nslation it into Chinese and post it on the web somewhere
>>>> so more people can read
>>>>
>>>> you are amazing
>>>>
>>>> Leo
>>>>
>>>> 2008/9/18 Wayne Mackintosh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>>>
>>>> Good question,
>>>>>
>>>>> I'd suggest posting that on the freedomdefined site and lets see how
>>>>> they respond.
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers
>>>>> Wayne
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -Original Message-
>>>>> From: wikieducator@googlegroups.com on behalf of Leigh Blackall
>>>>> Sent: Wed 9/17/2008 10:36 PM
>>>>> To: wikieducator@googlegroups.com
>>>>> Subject: [WikiEducator] Re: another text on OER, but not an OER!!
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, you are right.. I am, as always impatient :)
>>>>>
>>>>> I wonder though - given that the discussion page shows a fair number of
>>>>> unresolved or threads without closure, how we will determine consensus
>>>>> and
>>>>> take action on that paragraph...?
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Sep 18, 2008 at 5:06 PM, Wayne Mackintosh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>>>> >wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> > Hi Leigh,
>>>>> >
>>>>> > My own experience with the open movement is that nothing is cut and
>>>>> dry.
>>>>> > The success and survival of the top open projects depend on community
>>>>> > support, listening and feeling the pulse of the community.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Openness and the willingness to adapt, refine and get better without
>>>>> > compromising core vales is what feeds and sustains successful open
>>>>> projects.
>>>>> > With every open project there is always the opportunity to fork. The
>>>>> risk
>>>>> > with forking is the challenge of achieving critical mass for
>>>>> sustainability.
>>>>> > It's a self-organising system.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > WikiEducator is an important and significant community in the global
>>>>> OER
>>>>> > space -- the fact that Erik has opened the discussion is a testament
>>>>> to our
>>>>> > contribution to the freedom culture but also a validation of the
>>>>> openness of
>>>>> > the free cultural works definition.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > I don't see this as a "cut and dry" scenario rather an opportunity to
>>>>> make
>>>>> > a positive contribution to what we collectively are trying to
>>>>> achieve. The
>>>>> > real test will be whether the WikiEducator community and others take
>>>>> up the
>>>>> > opportunity in changing the world for the better :-).
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Cheers
>>>>> > Wayne
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> > -Original Message-
>>>>> > From: wikieducator@googlegroups.com on behalf of Leigh Blackall
>>>>> > Sent: Wed 9/17/2008 9:35 PM
>>>>> > To: wikieducator@googlegroups.com
>>>>> > Subject: [WikiEducator] Re: another text on OER, but not an OER!!
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Have also added my bit to the discussion page... seems pretty cut and
>>>>> dry
>>>>> > though. Not sure what needs to be discussed, but let's see and I
>>>>> guess its
>>>>> > only polite.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Randy said: How ironic! Someone should write an opinion piece in a
>>>>> highly
>>>>> > > regarded publication to draw attention to the irony, and some might
>>>>> say,
>>>>> > > hypocrisy.
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Well, mine may not be highly regarded but it is read by 3000 people a
>>>>> > month.
>>>>> > (scarey I know!) When is an OER not an
>>>>> > OER?<
>>>>> http://learnonline.wordpress.com/2008/09/18/whens-an-oer-not-an-oer/>
>>>>> >
>>>>> > On Thu, Sep 18, 2008 at 4

[WikiEducator] Re: another text on OER, but not an OER!!

[Anil]

You are absolutely right Dr.Wayne.
What would have been the destiny of man if pattent & license laws
where in force in the present form a thousand years before!

Anil

On Sep 18, 4:24 am, Wayne <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Yeah Leigh, I don't get either :-(
>
> I would love to hear the rationales from these leading OER advocates who
> publish works on the topic of OER under a ND license.
>
> Over the last year I have received two invitations to publish research
> articles/chapters in special editions dealing with the topic of OER. My
> standard question is what license will you publish your special edition
> under?  Typically the license does not meet the requirements of the free
> cultural works definition and then I humbly decline to publish under
> their restrictive licensing regimes. That's freedom of choice.
>
> I'll leave the NC restriction aside here as there is divided opinion on
> this and my personal views are well documented in this forum. However, I
> just don't get the ND restriction applied to research output focused on
> promoting OER. Lets take an absurd example -- What if one of these
> publications cites work from WikiEducator which is licensed under
> CC-BY-SA. Sure, under fair usage/fair dealing a publication could lock
> down a CC-BY-SA citation under ND.
>
> But where is the ethic? The ethic of research is to acknowledge your
> sources --- does this ethic extend to respecting the intentions of the
> original creator?  If an author releases content under a copyleft /
> sharealike requirement - is there an ethical obligation to ensure that
> the "derivative" work is released under the same licence.
> Hypothetically, if an OER work is published under a CC-BY-NC-ND license
> and uses extensive material from a CC-BY-SA source -- would this be a
> transgression of research ethic? Similarly the ethic of research is to
> acknowledge your sources. At conceptual level the majority of research
> are derivative works based on the ideas of those who have gone before
> us. Given this ethic -- I don't see the rationale behind the ND
> restriction.
>
> In the case of a cultural work, for example a digital painting -- I
> understand the ethic of applying a ND restriction because the digital
> artwork is the expression of the artist and the prime purpose of the
> creation.
>
> >From a sociological perspective -- I don't think licenses should be used
>
> to regulate intent, but that's another discussion.
>
> Those of us working on the OER arena have lots to think about. After
> all, the purpose of education is to share knowledge freely.
>
> Cheers
> Wayne
>
>
>
> On Thu, 2008-09-18 at 10:29 +1200, Leigh Blackall wrote:
> > MIT keep missing the issue with their licenses!
> >http://mitpress.mit.edu/opening_up_education/
>
> > --
> > --
> > Leigh Blackall
> >  +64...   
> > skype - leigh_blackall
> > SL - Leroy Goalpost
> >http://learnonline.wordpress.com- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
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[WikiEducator] Re: another text on OER, but not an OER!!

[Anil]

You are absolutely right Dr.Wayne.
What would have been the destiny of man if pattent laws where in force
in the present form a thousand years before!

Anil

On Sep 18, 4:24 am, Wayne <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Yeah Leigh, I don't get either :-(
>
> I would love to hear the rationales from these leading OER advocates who
> publish works on the topic of OER under a ND license.
>
> Over the last year I have received two invitations to publish research
> articles/chapters in special editions dealing with the topic of OER. My
> standard question is what license will you publish your special edition
> under?  Typically the license does not meet the requirements of the free
> cultural works definition and then I humbly decline to publish under
> their restrictive licensing regimes. That's freedom of choice.
>
> I'll leave the NC restriction aside here as there is divided opinion on
> this and my personal views are well documented in this forum. However, I
> just don't get the ND restriction applied to research output focused on
> promoting OER. Lets take an absurd example -- What if one of these
> publications cites work from WikiEducator which is licensed under
> CC-BY-SA. Sure, under fair usage/fair dealing a publication could lock
> down a CC-BY-SA citation under ND.
>
> But where is the ethic? The ethic of research is to acknowledge your
> sources --- does this ethic extend to respecting the intentions of the
> original creator?  If an author releases content under a copyleft /
> sharealike requirement - is there an ethical obligation to ensure that
> the "derivative" work is released under the same licence.
> Hypothetically, if an OER work is published under a CC-BY-NC-ND license
> and uses extensive material from a CC-BY-SA source -- would this be a
> transgression of research ethic? Similarly the ethic of research is to
> acknowledge your sources. At conceptual level the majority of research
> are derivative works based on the ideas of those who have gone before
> us. Given this ethic -- I don't see the rationale behind the ND
> restriction.
>
> In the case of a cultural work, for example a digital painting -- I
> understand the ethic of applying a ND restriction because the digital
> artwork is the expression of the artist and the prime purpose of the
> creation.
>
> >From a sociological perspective -- I don't think licenses should be used
>
> to regulate intent, but that's another discussion.
>
> Those of us working on the OER arena have lots to think about. After
> all, the purpose of education is to share knowledge freely.
>
> Cheers
> Wayne
>
>
>
> On Thu, 2008-09-18 at 10:29 +1200, Leigh Blackall wrote:
> > MIT keep missing the issue with their licenses!
> >http://mitpress.mit.edu/opening_up_education/
>
> > --
> > --
> > Leigh Blackall
> >  +64...   
> > skype - leigh_blackall
> > SL - Leroy Goalpost
> >http://learnonline.wordpress.com- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
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[WikiEducator] Re: another text on OER, but not an OER!!

[Leigh Blackall]

Its really nothing special Leo.. you're probably expecting better :)

When's an OER not an OER?

September 18, 2008 in
Uncategorized<http://learnonline.wordpress.com/category/uncategorized/>

<http://flickr.com/photos/leighblackall/501740058/in/set-72157600223371021/>When
MIT publish one it seems.

MIT have published a text called Opening Up
Education<http://mitpress.mit.edu/opening_up_education/>,
but under a copyright license that is one step short of All Rights Reserved.
MIT is just not getting the message are they? They are not really about open
education at all!

On the other hand, Utah State University in collaboration with the
Commonwealth of Learning and individual designers have published the OER
Handbook <http://www.wikieducator.org/OER_Handbook/educator_version_one>.
Available under a free and practically nonrestrictive license, in both a
wiki and a printed and bound text on Lulu.

I like to think that Utah followed Otago Polytechnic's lead when we
published Ruth Lawson's Anatomy and Physiology of Animals text on
Wikibooks<http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Anatomy_and_Physiology_of_Animals>,
with lesson plans and activities on
Wikieducator<http://www.wikieducator.org/The_Anatomy_and_Physiology_of_Animals>,
and a printed version on Lulu.com <http://www.lulu.com/content/1920743>

We are working on a number of other texts as we speak (not to mention videos
and stuff all over the place!), all of it under CC By.

MIT should stop their work in "open courseware" and "open education" or risk
influencing a second wave of OER developers to basically construct
educational resources that may as well be All Rights Reserved and leave us
in a position not much better than where we started.

Risks like the trend that MIT are setting necessitate a project like the Free
Cultural Works Definition <http://freedomdefined.org/Definition> were it
sets out to clearly delineate what is free and what is restrictive. It
prevents by way of stating a principle, oganisations cashing in on the hard
work of OER campaigners.

In my books <http://flickr.com/photos/leighblackall/sets/72157600223371021/>,
CC By is the only free license.

PS. It was way back in November 2004 we started to get suspicious of
MIT<http://learnonline.wordpress.com/2004/11/22/suspicions-on-mit-ocw/>


On Thu, Sep 18, 2008 at 8:43 PM, Wong Leo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> yes ,http://yeeyan.com is a website I use to translate the interesting
> articles by English edu blogger into Chinese , I can send your article using
> google document or in their wiki http://pro.yeeyan.com ( where I use to
> translate the Connectivism course by G/S) into Chinese )
>
> It is nothing  but yes please send it to me coz I canot open your blog in
> anyway , and I will try my best to translate it into Chinese ( hope it is
> not too long ) and send the URL back to WE here
>
> best
>
> Leo
>
> 2008/9/18 Leigh Blackall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
> Thanks Leo, but I am most certainly not amazing. Just an outspoken guy who
>> often speaks before thinking and so far been lucky.
>>
>> The original text? You mean the text from my blog?
>>
>>  On Thu, Sep 18, 2008 at 6:37 PM, Wong Leo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>>> Dear Leigh ,
>>>
>>> I have to read your post by using google translation now ,even I could
>>> not read it by using proxy , butSO I am reading it in Chinese now !
>>>
>>> remember I was talking about the dragon story in Chinese , it really
>>> bring me back to home
>>>
>>> If you can ,would you please send me the orignial English version so I
>>> can read maybe translation it into Chinese and post it on the web somewhere
>>> so more people can read
>>>
>>> you are amazing
>>>
>>> Leo
>>>
>>> 2008/9/18 Wayne Mackintosh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>>
>>> Good question,
>>>>
>>>> I'd suggest posting that on the freedomdefined site and lets see how
>>>> they respond.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers
>>>> Wayne
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -Original Message-
>>>> From: wikieducator@googlegroups.com on behalf of Leigh Blackall
>>>> Sent: Wed 9/17/2008 10:36 PM
>>>> To: wikieducator@googlegroups.com
>>>> Subject: [WikiEducator] Re: another text on OER, but not an OER!!
>>>>
>>>> Yes, you are right.. I am, as always impatient :)
>>>>
>>>> I wonder though - given that the discussion page shows a fair number of
>>>> unresolved or threads without closure, how we will determine consensus
>>>> and
>>>> t

[WikiEducator] Re: another text on OER, but not an OER!!

[Wong Leo]

yes ,http://yeeyan.com is a website I use to translate the interesting
articles by English edu blogger into Chinese , I can send your article using
google document or in their wiki http://pro.yeeyan.com ( where I use to
translate the Connectivism course by G/S) into Chinese )

It is nothing  but yes please send it to me coz I canot open your blog in
anyway , and I will try my best to translate it into Chinese ( hope it is
not too long ) and send the URL back to WE here

best

Leo

2008/9/18 Leigh Blackall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

> Thanks Leo, but I am most certainly not amazing. Just an outspoken guy who
> often speaks before thinking and so far been lucky.
>
> The original text? You mean the text from my blog?
>
> On Thu, Sep 18, 2008 at 6:37 PM, Wong Leo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> Dear Leigh ,
>>
>> I have to read your post by using google translation now ,even I could not
>> read it by using proxy , butSO I am reading it in Chinese now !
>>
>> remember I was talking about the dragon story in Chinese , it really bring
>> me back to home
>>
>> If you can ,would you please send me the orignial English version so I can
>> read maybe translation it into Chinese and post it on the web somewhere so
>> more people can read
>>
>> you are amazing
>>
>> Leo
>>
>> 2008/9/18 Wayne Mackintosh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>
>> Good question,
>>>
>>> I'd suggest posting that on the freedomdefined site and lets see how they
>>> respond.
>>>
>>> Cheers
>>> Wayne
>>>
>>>
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: wikieducator@googlegroups.com on behalf of Leigh Blackall
>>> Sent: Wed 9/17/2008 10:36 PM
>>> To: wikieducator@googlegroups.com
>>> Subject: [WikiEducator] Re: another text on OER, but not an OER!!
>>>
>>> Yes, you are right.. I am, as always impatient :)
>>>
>>> I wonder though - given that the discussion page shows a fair number of
>>> unresolved or threads without closure, how we will determine consensus
>>> and
>>> take action on that paragraph...?
>>>
>>> On Thu, Sep 18, 2008 at 5:06 PM, Wayne Mackintosh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>> >wrote:
>>>
>>> > Hi Leigh,
>>> >
>>> > My own experience with the open movement is that nothing is cut and
>>> dry.
>>> > The success and survival of the top open projects depend on community
>>> > support, listening and feeling the pulse of the community.
>>> >
>>> > Openness and the willingness to adapt, refine and get better without
>>> > compromising core vales is what feeds and sustains successful open
>>> projects.
>>> > With every open project there is always the opportunity to fork. The
>>> risk
>>> > with forking is the challenge of achieving critical mass for
>>> sustainability.
>>> > It's a self-organising system.
>>> >
>>> > WikiEducator is an important and significant community in the global
>>> OER
>>> > space -- the fact that Erik has opened the discussion is a testament to
>>> our
>>> > contribution to the freedom culture but also a validation of the
>>> openness of
>>> > the free cultural works definition.
>>> >
>>> > I don't see this as a "cut and dry" scenario rather an opportunity to
>>> make
>>> > a positive contribution to what we collectively are trying to achieve.
>>> The
>>> > real test will be whether the WikiEducator community and others take up
>>> the
>>> > opportunity in changing the world for the better :-).
>>> >
>>> > Cheers
>>> > Wayne
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > -Original Message-
>>> > From: wikieducator@googlegroups.com on behalf of Leigh Blackall
>>> > Sent: Wed 9/17/2008 9:35 PM
>>> > To: wikieducator@googlegroups.com
>>> > Subject: [WikiEducator] Re: another text on OER, but not an OER!!
>>> >
>>> > Have also added my bit to the discussion page... seems pretty cut and
>>> dry
>>> > though. Not sure what needs to be discussed, but let's see and I guess
>>> its
>>> > only polite.
>>> >
>>> > Randy said: How ironic! Someone should write an opinion piece in a
>>> highly
>>> > > regarded publication to draw attention to the

[WikiEducator] Re: another text on OER, but not an OER!!

[Leigh Blackall]

Thanks Leo, but I am most certainly not amazing. Just an outspoken guy who
often speaks before thinking and so far been lucky.

The original text? You mean the text from my blog?

On Thu, Sep 18, 2008 at 6:37 PM, Wong Leo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Dear Leigh ,
>
> I have to read your post by using google translation now ,even I could not
> read it by using proxy , butSO I am reading it in Chinese now !
>
> remember I was talking about the dragon story in Chinese , it really bring
> me back to home
>
> If you can ,would you please send me the orignial English version so I can
> read maybe translation it into Chinese and post it on the web somewhere so
> more people can read
>
> you are amazing
>
> Leo
>
> 2008/9/18 Wayne Mackintosh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
> Good question,
>>
>> I'd suggest posting that on the freedomdefined site and lets see how they
>> respond.
>>
>> Cheers
>> Wayne
>>
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: wikieducator@googlegroups.com on behalf of Leigh Blackall
>> Sent: Wed 9/17/2008 10:36 PM
>> To: wikieducator@googlegroups.com
>> Subject: [WikiEducator] Re: another text on OER, but not an OER!!
>>
>> Yes, you are right.. I am, as always impatient :)
>>
>> I wonder though - given that the discussion page shows a fair number of
>> unresolved or threads without closure, how we will determine consensus and
>> take action on that paragraph...?
>>
>> On Thu, Sep 18, 2008 at 5:06 PM, Wayne Mackintosh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> >wrote:
>>
>> > Hi Leigh,
>> >
>> > My own experience with the open movement is that nothing is cut and dry.
>> > The success and survival of the top open projects depend on community
>> > support, listening and feeling the pulse of the community.
>> >
>> > Openness and the willingness to adapt, refine and get better without
>> > compromising core vales is what feeds and sustains successful open
>> projects.
>> > With every open project there is always the opportunity to fork. The
>> risk
>> > with forking is the challenge of achieving critical mass for
>> sustainability.
>> > It's a self-organising system.
>> >
>> > WikiEducator is an important and significant community in the global OER
>> > space -- the fact that Erik has opened the discussion is a testament to
>> our
>> > contribution to the freedom culture but also a validation of the
>> openness of
>> > the free cultural works definition.
>> >
>> > I don't see this as a "cut and dry" scenario rather an opportunity to
>> make
>> > a positive contribution to what we collectively are trying to achieve.
>> The
>> > real test will be whether the WikiEducator community and others take up
>> the
>> > opportunity in changing the world for the better :-).
>> >
>> > Cheers
>> > Wayne
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > -Original Message-
>> > From: wikieducator@googlegroups.com on behalf of Leigh Blackall
>> > Sent: Wed 9/17/2008 9:35 PM
>> > To: wikieducator@googlegroups.com
>> > Subject: [WikiEducator] Re: another text on OER, but not an OER!!
>> >
>> > Have also added my bit to the discussion page... seems pretty cut and
>> dry
>> > though. Not sure what needs to be discussed, but let's see and I guess
>> its
>> > only polite.
>> >
>> > Randy said: How ironic! Someone should write an opinion piece in a
>> highly
>> > > regarded publication to draw attention to the irony, and some might
>> say,
>> > > hypocrisy.
>> >
>> >
>> > Well, mine may not be highly regarded but it is read by 3000 people a
>> > month.
>> > (scarey I know!) When is an OER not an
>> > OER?<
>> http://learnonline.wordpress.com/2008/09/18/whens-an-oer-not-an-oer/>
>> >
>> > On Thu, Sep 18, 2008 at 4:05 PM, Wayne Mackintosh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> > >wrote:
>> >
>> > > Thanks Erik,
>> > >
>> > > I've posted some feedback on the preamble here:
>> > >
>> > > http://freedomdefined.org/Talk:Definition#Preamble_for_1.1
>> > >
>> > > Appreciate your speedy response in opening up the discussion again. A
>> > > testament to the open approach. Lets hope that the WikiEducator
>> community
>> > > will be active in he

[WikiEducator] Re: another text on OER, but not an OER!!

[Peter]

Interesting discussion. have you tried asking them if they would waive
the ND?
I was reading this book through after Stephen D. had published the
link on OLDaily... I said to myself, it is pretty amazing what we are
seeing. The fact the book is even a CC-BY-SA-ND, pretty much means I
could use the text (without cost) in any course on OER I may want to
teach. No student paying $200 for it...

But I do agree the presence on the ND means they really don't get the
Open... of OER

Cheers,

On Sep 17, 11:37 pm, "Wong Leo" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Dear Leigh ,
>
> I have to read your post by using google translation now ,even I could not
> read it by using proxy , butSO I am reading it in Chinese now !
>
> remember I was talking about the dragon story in Chinese , it really bring
> me back to home
>
> If you can ,would you please send me the orignial English version so I can
> read maybe translation it into Chinese and post it on the web somewhere so
> more people can read
>
> you are amazing
>
> Leo
>
> 2008/9/18 Wayne Mackintosh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>
>
> > Good question,
>
> > I'd suggest posting that on the freedomdefined site and lets see how they
> > respond.
>
> > Cheers
> > Wayne
>
> > -Original Message-
> > From: wikieducator@googlegroups.com on behalf of Leigh Blackall
> > Sent: Wed 9/17/2008 10:36 PM
> > To: wikieducator@googlegroups.com
> > Subject: [WikiEducator] Re: another text on OER, but not an OER!!
>
> > Yes, you are right.. I am, as always impatient :)
>
> > I wonder though - given that the discussion page shows a fair number of
> > unresolved or threads without closure, how we will determine consensus and
> > take action on that paragraph...?
>
> > On Thu, Sep 18, 2008 at 5:06 PM, Wayne Mackintosh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > >wrote:
>
> > > Hi Leigh,
>
> > > My own experience with the open movement is that nothing is cut and dry.
> > > The success and survival of the top open projects depend on community
> > > support, listening and feeling the pulse of the community.
>
> > > Openness and the willingness to adapt, refine and get better without
> > > compromising core vales is what feeds and sustains successful open
> > projects.
> > > With every open project there is always the opportunity to fork. The risk
> > > with forking is the challenge of achieving critical mass for
> > sustainability.
> > > It's a self-organising system.
>
> > > WikiEducator is an important and significant community in the global OER
> > > space -- the fact that Erik has opened the discussion is a testament to
> > our
> > > contribution to the freedom culture but also a validation of the openness
> > of
> > > the free cultural works definition.
>
> > > I don't see this as a "cut and dry" scenario rather an opportunity to
> > make
> > > a positive contribution to what we collectively are trying to achieve.
> > The
> > > real test will be whether the WikiEducator community and others take up
> > the
> > > opportunity in changing the world for the better :-).
>
> > > Cheers
> > > Wayne
>
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: wikieducator@googlegroups.com on behalf of Leigh Blackall
> > > Sent: Wed 9/17/2008 9:35 PM
> > > To: wikieducator@googlegroups.com
> > > Subject: [WikiEducator] Re: another text on OER, but not an OER!!
>
> > > Have also added my bit to the discussion page... seems pretty cut and dry
> > > though. Not sure what needs to be discussed, but let's see and I guess
> > its
> > > only polite.
>
> > > Randy said: How ironic! Someone should write an opinion piece in a highly
> > > > regarded publication to draw attention to the irony, and some might
> > say,
> > > > hypocrisy.
>
> > > Well, mine may not be highly regarded but it is read by 3000 people a
> > > month.
> > > (scarey I know!) When is an OER not an
> > > OER?<
> >http://learnonline.wordpress.com/2008/09/18/whens-an-oer-not-an-oer/>
>
> > > On Thu, Sep 18, 2008 at 4:05 PM, Wayne Mackintosh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > >wrote:
>
> > > > Thanks Erik,
>
> > > > I've posted some feedback on the preamble here:
>
> > > >http://freedomdefined.org/Talk:Definition#Preamble_for_1.1
>
> > > > Appreciate your speedy response in opening up the discussion again. A
> > > > testament to the open approach. Lets

[WikiEducator] Re: another text on OER, but not an OER!!

[Wong Leo]

Dear Leigh ,

I have to read your post by using google translation now ,even I could not
read it by using proxy , butSO I am reading it in Chinese now !

remember I was talking about the dragon story in Chinese , it really bring
me back to home

If you can ,would you please send me the orignial English version so I can
read maybe translation it into Chinese and post it on the web somewhere so
more people can read

you are amazing

Leo

2008/9/18 Wayne Mackintosh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

> Good question,
>
> I'd suggest posting that on the freedomdefined site and lets see how they
> respond.
>
> Cheers
> Wayne
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: wikieducator@googlegroups.com on behalf of Leigh Blackall
> Sent: Wed 9/17/2008 10:36 PM
> To: wikieducator@googlegroups.com
> Subject: [WikiEducator] Re: another text on OER, but not an OER!!
>
> Yes, you are right.. I am, as always impatient :)
>
> I wonder though - given that the discussion page shows a fair number of
> unresolved or threads without closure, how we will determine consensus and
> take action on that paragraph...?
>
> On Thu, Sep 18, 2008 at 5:06 PM, Wayne Mackintosh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >wrote:
>
> > Hi Leigh,
> >
> > My own experience with the open movement is that nothing is cut and dry.
> > The success and survival of the top open projects depend on community
> > support, listening and feeling the pulse of the community.
> >
> > Openness and the willingness to adapt, refine and get better without
> > compromising core vales is what feeds and sustains successful open
> projects.
> > With every open project there is always the opportunity to fork. The risk
> > with forking is the challenge of achieving critical mass for
> sustainability.
> > It's a self-organising system.
> >
> > WikiEducator is an important and significant community in the global OER
> > space -- the fact that Erik has opened the discussion is a testament to
> our
> > contribution to the freedom culture but also a validation of the openness
> of
> > the free cultural works definition.
> >
> > I don't see this as a "cut and dry" scenario rather an opportunity to
> make
> > a positive contribution to what we collectively are trying to achieve.
> The
> > real test will be whether the WikiEducator community and others take up
> the
> > opportunity in changing the world for the better :-).
> >
> > Cheers
> > Wayne
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: wikieducator@googlegroups.com on behalf of Leigh Blackall
> > Sent: Wed 9/17/2008 9:35 PM
> > To: wikieducator@googlegroups.com
> > Subject: [WikiEducator] Re: another text on OER, but not an OER!!
> >
> > Have also added my bit to the discussion page... seems pretty cut and dry
> > though. Not sure what needs to be discussed, but let's see and I guess
> its
> > only polite.
> >
> > Randy said: How ironic! Someone should write an opinion piece in a highly
> > > regarded publication to draw attention to the irony, and some might
> say,
> > > hypocrisy.
> >
> >
> > Well, mine may not be highly regarded but it is read by 3000 people a
> > month.
> > (scarey I know!) When is an OER not an
> > OER?<
> http://learnonline.wordpress.com/2008/09/18/whens-an-oer-not-an-oer/>
> >
> > On Thu, Sep 18, 2008 at 4:05 PM, Wayne Mackintosh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > >wrote:
> >
> > > Thanks Erik,
> > >
> > > I've posted some feedback on the preamble here:
> > >
> > > http://freedomdefined.org/Talk:Definition#Preamble_for_1.1
> > >
> > > Appreciate your speedy response in opening up the discussion again. A
> > > testament to the open approach. Lets hope that the WikiEducator
> community
> > > will be active in helping with contributions to refine the definition.
> > >
> > > Here's your opportunity :-)
> > >
> > > Cheers
> > > Wayne
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: wikieducator@googlegroups.com on behalf of Erik Moeller
> > > Sent: Wed 9/17/2008 8:03 PM
> > > To: wikieducator@googlegroups.com
> > > Subject: [WikiEducator] Re: another text on OER, but not an OER!!
> > >
> > >
> > > I've rebooted the discussion and invited some of the contributors to
> > > the definition to participate:
> > >
> > > http://freedomdefined.org/Talk:Definition#Preamble_

[WikiEducator] Re: another text on OER, but not an OER!!

[Wayne Mackintosh]

Good question,

I'd suggest posting that on the freedomdefined site and lets see how they 
respond.

Cheers
Wayne


-Original Message-
From: wikieducator@googlegroups.com on behalf of Leigh Blackall
Sent: Wed 9/17/2008 10:36 PM
To: wikieducator@googlegroups.com
Subject: [WikiEducator] Re: another text on OER, but not an OER!!
 
Yes, you are right.. I am, as always impatient :)

I wonder though - given that the discussion page shows a fair number of
unresolved or threads without closure, how we will determine consensus and
take action on that paragraph...?

On Thu, Sep 18, 2008 at 5:06 PM, Wayne Mackintosh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:

> Hi Leigh,
>
> My own experience with the open movement is that nothing is cut and dry.
> The success and survival of the top open projects depend on community
> support, listening and feeling the pulse of the community.
>
> Openness and the willingness to adapt, refine and get better without
> compromising core vales is what feeds and sustains successful open projects.
> With every open project there is always the opportunity to fork. The risk
> with forking is the challenge of achieving critical mass for sustainability.
> It's a self-organising system.
>
> WikiEducator is an important and significant community in the global OER
> space -- the fact that Erik has opened the discussion is a testament to our
> contribution to the freedom culture but also a validation of the openness of
> the free cultural works definition.
>
> I don't see this as a "cut and dry" scenario rather an opportunity to make
> a positive contribution to what we collectively are trying to achieve. The
> real test will be whether the WikiEducator community and others take up the
> opportunity in changing the world for the better :-).
>
> Cheers
> Wayne
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: wikieducator@googlegroups.com on behalf of Leigh Blackall
> Sent: Wed 9/17/2008 9:35 PM
> To: wikieducator@googlegroups.com
> Subject: [WikiEducator] Re: another text on OER, but not an OER!!
>
> Have also added my bit to the discussion page... seems pretty cut and dry
> though. Not sure what needs to be discussed, but let's see and I guess its
> only polite.
>
> Randy said: How ironic! Someone should write an opinion piece in a highly
> > regarded publication to draw attention to the irony, and some might say,
> > hypocrisy.
>
>
> Well, mine may not be highly regarded but it is read by 3000 people a
> month.
> (scarey I know!) When is an OER not an
> OER?<http://learnonline.wordpress.com/2008/09/18/whens-an-oer-not-an-oer/>
>
> On Thu, Sep 18, 2008 at 4:05 PM, Wayne Mackintosh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >wrote:
>
> > Thanks Erik,
> >
> > I've posted some feedback on the preamble here:
> >
> > http://freedomdefined.org/Talk:Definition#Preamble_for_1.1
> >
> > Appreciate your speedy response in opening up the discussion again. A
> > testament to the open approach. Lets hope that the WikiEducator community
> > will be active in helping with contributions to refine the definition.
> >
> > Here's your opportunity :-)
> >
> > Cheers
> > Wayne
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: wikieducator@googlegroups.com on behalf of Erik Moeller
> > Sent: Wed 9/17/2008 8:03 PM
> > To: wikieducator@googlegroups.com
> > Subject: [WikiEducator] Re: another text on OER, but not an OER!!
> >
> >
> > I've rebooted the discussion and invited some of the contributors to
> > the definition to participate:
> >
> > http://freedomdefined.org/Talk:Definition#Preamble_for_1.1
> > --
> > Erik Möller
> > Deputy Director, Wikimedia Foundation
> >
> > Support Free Knowledge: http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Donate
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> >
>
>
> --
> --
> Leigh Blackall
> +64(0)21736539
> skype - leigh_blackall
> SL - Leroy Goalpost
> http://learnonline.wordpress.com
>
>
>
>
> >
>


-- 
--
Leigh Blackall
+64(0)21736539
skype - leigh_blackall
SL - Leroy Goalpost
http://learnonline.wordpress.com




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[WikiEducator] Re: another text on OER, but not an OER!!

[Leigh Blackall]

Yes, you are right.. I am, as always impatient :)

I wonder though - given that the discussion page shows a fair number of
unresolved or threads without closure, how we will determine consensus and
take action on that paragraph...?

On Thu, Sep 18, 2008 at 5:06 PM, Wayne Mackintosh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:

> Hi Leigh,
>
> My own experience with the open movement is that nothing is cut and dry.
> The success and survival of the top open projects depend on community
> support, listening and feeling the pulse of the community.
>
> Openness and the willingness to adapt, refine and get better without
> compromising core vales is what feeds and sustains successful open projects.
> With every open project there is always the opportunity to fork. The risk
> with forking is the challenge of achieving critical mass for sustainability.
> It's a self-organising system.
>
> WikiEducator is an important and significant community in the global OER
> space -- the fact that Erik has opened the discussion is a testament to our
> contribution to the freedom culture but also a validation of the openness of
> the free cultural works definition.
>
> I don't see this as a "cut and dry" scenario rather an opportunity to make
> a positive contribution to what we collectively are trying to achieve. The
> real test will be whether the WikiEducator community and others take up the
> opportunity in changing the world for the better :-).
>
> Cheers
> Wayne
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: wikieducator@googlegroups.com on behalf of Leigh Blackall
> Sent: Wed 9/17/2008 9:35 PM
> To: wikieducator@googlegroups.com
> Subject: [WikiEducator] Re: another text on OER, but not an OER!!
>
> Have also added my bit to the discussion page... seems pretty cut and dry
> though. Not sure what needs to be discussed, but let's see and I guess its
> only polite.
>
> Randy said: How ironic! Someone should write an opinion piece in a highly
> > regarded publication to draw attention to the irony, and some might say,
> > hypocrisy.
>
>
> Well, mine may not be highly regarded but it is read by 3000 people a
> month.
> (scarey I know!) When is an OER not an
> OER?<http://learnonline.wordpress.com/2008/09/18/whens-an-oer-not-an-oer/>
>
> On Thu, Sep 18, 2008 at 4:05 PM, Wayne Mackintosh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >wrote:
>
> > Thanks Erik,
> >
> > I've posted some feedback on the preamble here:
> >
> > http://freedomdefined.org/Talk:Definition#Preamble_for_1.1
> >
> > Appreciate your speedy response in opening up the discussion again. A
> > testament to the open approach. Lets hope that the WikiEducator community
> > will be active in helping with contributions to refine the definition.
> >
> > Here's your opportunity :-)
> >
> > Cheers
> > Wayne
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: wikieducator@googlegroups.com on behalf of Erik Moeller
> > Sent: Wed 9/17/2008 8:03 PM
> > To: wikieducator@googlegroups.com
> > Subject: [WikiEducator] Re: another text on OER, but not an OER!!
> >
> >
> > I've rebooted the discussion and invited some of the contributors to
> > the definition to participate:
> >
> > http://freedomdefined.org/Talk:Definition#Preamble_for_1.1
> > --
> > Erik Möller
> > Deputy Director, Wikimedia Foundation
> >
> > Support Free Knowledge: http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Donate
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> >
>
>
> --
> --
> Leigh Blackall
> +64(0)21736539
> skype - leigh_blackall
> SL - Leroy Goalpost
> http://learnonline.wordpress.com
>
>
>
>
> >
>


-- 
--
Leigh Blackall
+64(0)21736539
skype - leigh_blackall
SL - Leroy Goalpost
http://learnonline.wordpress.com

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[WikiEducator] Re: another text on OER, but not an OER!!

[Wayne Mackintosh]

Hi Leigh,

My own experience with the open movement is that nothing is cut and dry. The 
success and survival of the top open projects depend on community support, 
listening and feeling the pulse of the community. 

Openness and the willingness to adapt, refine and get better without 
compromising core vales is what feeds and sustains successful open projects. 
With every open project there is always the opportunity to fork. The risk with 
forking is the challenge of achieving critical mass for sustainability. It's a 
self-organising system.

WikiEducator is an important and significant community in the global OER space 
-- the fact that Erik has opened the discussion is a testament to our 
contribution to the freedom culture but also a validation of the openness of 
the free cultural works definition.

I don't see this as a "cut and dry" scenario rather an opportunity to make a 
positive contribution to what we collectively are trying to achieve. The real 
test will be whether the WikiEducator community and others take up the 
opportunity in changing the world for the better :-).

Cheers
Wayne






-Original Message-
From: wikieducator@googlegroups.com on behalf of Leigh Blackall
Sent: Wed 9/17/2008 9:35 PM
To: wikieducator@googlegroups.com
Subject: [WikiEducator] Re: another text on OER, but not an OER!!
 
Have also added my bit to the discussion page... seems pretty cut and dry
though. Not sure what needs to be discussed, but let's see and I guess its
only polite.

Randy said: How ironic! Someone should write an opinion piece in a highly
> regarded publication to draw attention to the irony, and some might say,
> hypocrisy.


Well, mine may not be highly regarded but it is read by 3000 people a month.
(scarey I know!) When is an OER not an
OER?<http://learnonline.wordpress.com/2008/09/18/whens-an-oer-not-an-oer/>

On Thu, Sep 18, 2008 at 4:05 PM, Wayne Mackintosh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:

> Thanks Erik,
>
> I've posted some feedback on the preamble here:
>
> http://freedomdefined.org/Talk:Definition#Preamble_for_1.1
>
> Appreciate your speedy response in opening up the discussion again. A
> testament to the open approach. Lets hope that the WikiEducator community
> will be active in helping with contributions to refine the definition.
>
> Here's your opportunity :-)
>
> Cheers
> Wayne
>
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: wikieducator@googlegroups.com on behalf of Erik Moeller
> Sent: Wed 9/17/2008 8:03 PM
> To: wikieducator@googlegroups.com
> Subject: [WikiEducator] Re: another text on OER, but not an OER!!
>
>
> I've rebooted the discussion and invited some of the contributors to
> the definition to participate:
>
> http://freedomdefined.org/Talk:Definition#Preamble_for_1.1
> --
> Erik Möller
> Deputy Director, Wikimedia Foundation
>
> Support Free Knowledge: http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Donate
>
>
>
>
> >
>


-- 
--
Leigh Blackall
+64(0)21736539
skype - leigh_blackall
SL - Leroy Goalpost
http://learnonline.wordpress.com




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<>

[WikiEducator] Re: another text on OER, but not an OER!!

[Leigh Blackall]

Have also added my bit to the discussion page... seems pretty cut and dry
though. Not sure what needs to be discussed, but let's see and I guess its
only polite.

Randy said: How ironic! Someone should write an opinion piece in a highly
> regarded publication to draw attention to the irony, and some might say,
> hypocrisy.


Well, mine may not be highly regarded but it is read by 3000 people a month.
(scarey I know!) When is an OER not an
OER?<http://learnonline.wordpress.com/2008/09/18/whens-an-oer-not-an-oer/>

On Thu, Sep 18, 2008 at 4:05 PM, Wayne Mackintosh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:

> Thanks Erik,
>
> I've posted some feedback on the preamble here:
>
> http://freedomdefined.org/Talk:Definition#Preamble_for_1.1
>
> Appreciate your speedy response in opening up the discussion again. A
> testament to the open approach. Lets hope that the WikiEducator community
> will be active in helping with contributions to refine the definition.
>
> Here's your opportunity :-)
>
> Cheers
> Wayne
>
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: wikieducator@googlegroups.com on behalf of Erik Moeller
> Sent: Wed 9/17/2008 8:03 PM
> To: wikieducator@googlegroups.com
> Subject: [WikiEducator] Re: another text on OER, but not an OER!!
>
>
> I've rebooted the discussion and invited some of the contributors to
> the definition to participate:
>
> http://freedomdefined.org/Talk:Definition#Preamble_for_1.1
> --
> Erik Möller
> Deputy Director, Wikimedia Foundation
>
> Support Free Knowledge: http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Donate
>
>
>
>
> >
>


-- 
--
Leigh Blackall
+64(0)21736539
skype - leigh_blackall
SL - Leroy Goalpost
http://learnonline.wordpress.com

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[WikiEducator] Re: another text on OER, but not an OER!!

[Wayne Mackintosh]

Thanks Erik,

I've posted some feedback on the preamble here:

http://freedomdefined.org/Talk:Definition#Preamble_for_1.1

Appreciate your speedy response in opening up the discussion again. A testament 
to the open approach. Lets hope that the WikiEducator community will be active 
in helping with contributions to refine the definition.

Here's your opportunity :-)

Cheers
Wayne




-Original Message-
From: wikieducator@googlegroups.com on behalf of Erik Moeller
Sent: Wed 9/17/2008 8:03 PM
To: wikieducator@googlegroups.com
Subject: [WikiEducator] Re: another text on OER, but not an OER!!
 

I've rebooted the discussion and invited some of the contributors to
the definition to participate:

http://freedomdefined.org/Talk:Definition#Preamble_for_1.1
-- 
Erik Möller
Deputy Director, Wikimedia Foundation

Support Free Knowledge: http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Donate




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<>

[WikiEducator] Re: another text on OER, but not an OER!!

[Wayne Mackintosh]

Hi Leigh,

That's a good point -- I do agree that paragraph is somewhat radical, 
particularly to the "uninformed" and the document needs to be refined. As Erik 
suggests let's get involved on the discussions to refine this paragraph over at 
freedomdefined.org. Fortunately its an open community :-).

Speaking personally --- I suspect that I've overlooked the impact this would 
have on "newbies" exploring the OER territory given my passion for open 
education.  I agree that statements like "suppressed" and "god-like" creators 
does not serve the freedom culture and certainly do not add value. 

OK, lets focus on helping the free cultural works definition in refining this 
paragraph -- particularly for more conservative education audiences. That said, 
I full support the substance and essential freedoms and permissible 
restrictions. As an aside CC-BY qualifies under the free cultural works 
definition, notwithstanding my personal preferences for the sharealike clause 
:-).

Great posts.

Cheers
Wayne








-Original Message-
From: wikieducator@googlegroups.com on behalf of Leigh Blackall
Sent: Wed 9/17/2008 7:09 PM
To: wikieducator@googlegroups.com
Subject: [WikiEducator] Re: another text on OER, but not an OER!!
 
o oh.. I can feel us going back into that largely unresolved battle we had
last year.
http://wikieducator.org/User:Leighblackall/Open_educational_resources_and_practices#Copyright

I think my words from last year address some of my issues that still
stand... but specifically to moral tone, in the
preamble<http://freedomdefined.org/index.php?title=Definition&oldid=2868>is
this:

*In most countries however, these freedoms are not enforced but suppressed
> by the laws commonly named copyright laws. They consider authors as god-like
> creators and give them an exclusive monopoly as to how "their content" can
> be re-used. This monopoly impedes the flourishing of culture, and it does
> not even help the economic situation of authors so much as it protects the
> business model of the most powerful publishing companies. *
>

Basically, I don't even think the definition needs that whole ranting
paragraph and would be much better without it. We need to do more to
generously acknowledge the beliefs of everyday people who rely on perhaps a
misunderstanding of the protections in All Rights Reserved. We want to come
across as a rational option right? If this document is to be a defining
document, sloppy words like "suppressed by the laws", "god like status",
"monopoly", "impedes the flourishing of culture", "does not even help the
economic situation", and "most powerful publishing companies" are not
referenced and morally and politically loaded. This paragraph should be
deleted and if there is a need to cover the things it attempts to cover, it
should do more to exhibit a generous and sympathetic understanding for
people who believe in All Rights Reserved so as to not put them off side
with what can easily be seen as lefty ranting. Removing the moral tones and
ranty unreferenced statements would help.

Shall I delete the paragraph?


On Thu, Sep 18, 2008 at 1:48 PM, Wayne Mackintosh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:

> Hi Leigh,
>
> From your perspective -- what are the moral tones which are problematic? I
> would like to get a better understanding of the issues you face on the
> ground.
>
> The Free cultural works definition was developed in an attempt to define a
> free cultural work.
>
> Lessig's book on Free Culture: How Big Media Uses Technology and the Law to
> Lock Down Culture and Control Creativity was a seminal publication in the
> free knowledge movement. Yet the book fell short of defining the a free
> cultural work.
>
> The free cultural works definition was an attempt to define this -- very
> similar to the Open Source Software definition. Software is different from
> content. There are are other definitional projects like the Open Knowledge
> Definition, see:http://www.opendefinition.org/1.0/ -- which in all
> material respects also protect the the essential freedoms, as in the case of
> the free cultural works definition.
>
> Kim Tucker's essay "Say Libre"
>
> http://www.wikieducator.org/Say_Libre
>
> and corresponding work on the "Libre knowledge" definition
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libre_knowledge
>
> is also based on the essential freedom -- so we're in good company.
>
> There are subtle differences, for example concerning the requirement of
> attribution. This is also a complex debate ;-).
>
> The free cultural works definition has been adopted by major OER iniatives.
> It has been adopted by the Wikimedia Foundation -- by far the worlds largest
> OER project.
>

[WikiEducator] Re: another text on OER, but not an OER!!

[Erik Moeller]

I've rebooted the discussion and invited some of the contributors to
the definition to participate:

http://freedomdefined.org/Talk:Definition#Preamble_for_1.1
-- 
Erik Möller
Deputy Director, Wikimedia Foundation

Support Free Knowledge: http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Donate

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[WikiEducator] Re: another text on OER, but not an OER!!

[Leigh Blackall]

Erik, there was already a discussion about this, but no action:
http://freedomdefined.org/Talk:Definition#.22god-like_creators.22.3F

On Thu, Sep 18, 2008 at 2:45 PM, Erik Moeller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>
> The wording today was introduced here:
>
>
> http://freedomdefined.org/index.php?title=Definition/Unstable&diff=2254&oldid=2251
>
> It's definitely more radical than it needs to be, and I'd be
> comfortable with toning it down a bit - Leigh, why don't you start
> this discussion on the freedomdefined.org site and see whether we can
> come up with a compromise? I think the preamble should focus on
> articulating what's right about free cultural works, as opposed to
> criticizing what's wrong with non-free works.
> --
> Erik Möller
> Deputy Director, Wikimedia Foundation
>
> Support Free Knowledge: http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Donate
>
> >
>


-- 
--
Leigh Blackall
+64(0)21736539
skype - leigh_blackall
SL - Leroy Goalpost
http://learnonline.wordpress.com

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[WikiEducator] Re: another text on OER, but not an OER!!

[Erik Moeller]

The wording today was introduced here:

http://freedomdefined.org/index.php?title=Definition/Unstable&diff=2254&oldid=2251

It's definitely more radical than it needs to be, and I'd be
comfortable with toning it down a bit - Leigh, why don't you start
this discussion on the freedomdefined.org site and see whether we can
come up with a compromise? I think the preamble should focus on
articulating what's right about free cultural works, as opposed to
criticizing what's wrong with non-free works.
-- 
Erik Möller
Deputy Director, Wikimedia Foundation

Support Free Knowledge: http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Donate

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[WikiEducator] Re: another text on OER, but not an OER!!

[Brent]

ent to the free cultural works definition  and carries the free
>> cultural works definition logo on the site.
>>
>> I'm not sure whether its possible to achieve a "value-neutral"
>> interpretation of freedom because freedom is a value, hence the need to
>> define clearly what different projects mean by freedom at a practical level.
>>
>> Look forward to reading your concerns regarding "moral tones"
>>
>> Cheers
>> Wayne
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: wikieducator@googlegroups.com on behalf of Leigh Blackall
>> Sent: Wed 9/17/2008 5:13 PM
>> To: wikieducator@googlegroups.com
>> Subject: [WikiEducator] Re: another text on OER, but not an OER!!
>>
>> Globally this is OK. On a local scale this isn't so easy.
>>  To my mind - the free cultural works definition needs work. It needs to
>> be
>> more morally neutral. It *could* be an important defining document, but as
>> it is, I feel I can't subscribe due to some of the moral tones in it. It
>> may
>> have changed some since our big copyright debates from 2007.. so perhaps I
>> should check..
>>
>> On Thu, Sep 18, 2008 at 11:40 AM, Wayne <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>> >  Hi Leigh,
>> >
>> > That's a real challenge -- but surmountable through good education and
>> > advice to help folk take an informed decision.
>> >
>> > By setting a leading example and remaining true to our values -- we'll
>> win
>> > many over to our side :-).
>> >
>> > Cheers
>> > Wayne
>> >
>> > On Thu, 2008-09-18 at 11:34 +1200, Leigh Blackall wrote:
>> >
>> > Hmm, its a big problem my end, because if and when some of my colleagues
>> > see the use of this and other restrictive licenses, all they see is that
>> its
>> > Creative Commons and think that equates to OER... I am sensing a rise in
>> the
>> > use of restrictions as the 2nd wave of OER comes on board without fully
>> > considering it
>> >
>> >  On Thu, Sep 18, 2008 at 11:30 AM, Stephen Downes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> >  Wayne wrote:
>> >
>> > Yeah Leigh, I don't get either :-(
>> >
>> > I would love to hear the rationales from these leading OER advocates who
>> > publish works on the topic of OER under a ND license.
>> >
>> >   I would guess they have a commercial distribution deal with Scribd.
>> That
>> > would explain the ND - they don't want a (more usable) HTML version out
>> > there diluting the marketing impact.
>> >
>> > I'm just guessing, though.
>> >
>> > -- Stephen
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > --
>> > Leigh Blackall
>> > +64(0)21736539
>> > skype - leigh_blackall
>> > SL - Leroy Goalpost
>> > http://learnonline.wordpress.com<
>> http://console.mxlogic.com/redir/?5AQsFELcEICSnzhO-qejhOqenPo0c_Zz2I3Vg_z5oEbh-BendTV4sUMqehPP3bVKVIz4xlK5LbIAVb5z3uXKyc2cOFeFcwY7KxXc731qoueecaXoHa4WQ9DmGvM0454qR8D-hzlJqDbCTzhOepdEFFEK6zBxwQsLCTT3pFr0mhmgQwTrpRyqnjh02_id46MHcDYjh1fM-pEwH0Qg1wq1o1Cy0wTcQggHcQgr0Qg1wq1pExd49KvxYYmfSk3q9J4SOYqenPhOUYqejuDDQ
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > >
>> >
>>
>>
>> --
>> --
>> Leigh Blackall
>> +64(0)21736539
>> skype - leigh_blackall
>> SL - Leroy Goalpost
>> http://learnonline.wordpress.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> --
> Leigh Blackall
> +64(0)21736539
> skype - leigh_blackall
> SL - Leroy Goalpost
> http://learnonline.wordpress.com
>
> >
>


-- 
--
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[WikiEducator] Re: another text on OER, but not an OER!!

[Leigh Blackall]

o oh.. I can feel us going back into that largely unresolved battle we had
last year.
http://wikieducator.org/User:Leighblackall/Open_educational_resources_and_practices#Copyright

I think my words from last year address some of my issues that still
stand... but specifically to moral tone, in the
preamble<http://freedomdefined.org/index.php?title=Definition&oldid=2868>is
this:

*In most countries however, these freedoms are not enforced but suppressed
> by the laws commonly named copyright laws. They consider authors as god-like
> creators and give them an exclusive monopoly as to how "their content" can
> be re-used. This monopoly impedes the flourishing of culture, and it does
> not even help the economic situation of authors so much as it protects the
> business model of the most powerful publishing companies. *
>

Basically, I don't even think the definition needs that whole ranting
paragraph and would be much better without it. We need to do more to
generously acknowledge the beliefs of everyday people who rely on perhaps a
misunderstanding of the protections in All Rights Reserved. We want to come
across as a rational option right? If this document is to be a defining
document, sloppy words like "suppressed by the laws", "god like status",
"monopoly", "impedes the flourishing of culture", "does not even help the
economic situation", and "most powerful publishing companies" are not
referenced and morally and politically loaded. This paragraph should be
deleted and if there is a need to cover the things it attempts to cover, it
should do more to exhibit a generous and sympathetic understanding for
people who believe in All Rights Reserved so as to not put them off side
with what can easily be seen as lefty ranting. Removing the moral tones and
ranty unreferenced statements would help.

Shall I delete the paragraph?


On Thu, Sep 18, 2008 at 1:48 PM, Wayne Mackintosh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:

> Hi Leigh,
>
> From your perspective -- what are the moral tones which are problematic? I
> would like to get a better understanding of the issues you face on the
> ground.
>
> The Free cultural works definition was developed in an attempt to define a
> free cultural work.
>
> Lessig's book on Free Culture: How Big Media Uses Technology and the Law to
> Lock Down Culture and Control Creativity was a seminal publication in the
> free knowledge movement. Yet the book fell short of defining the a free
> cultural work.
>
> The free cultural works definition was an attempt to define this -- very
> similar to the Open Source Software definition. Software is different from
> content. There are are other definitional projects like the Open Knowledge
> Definition, see:http://www.opendefinition.org/1.0/ -- which in all
> material respects also protect the the essential freedoms, as in the case of
> the free cultural works definition.
>
> Kim Tucker's essay "Say Libre"
>
> http://www.wikieducator.org/Say_Libre
>
> and corresponding work on the "Libre knowledge" definition
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libre_knowledge
>
> is also based on the essential freedom -- so we're in good company.
>
> There are subtle differences, for example concerning the requirement of
> attribution. This is also a complex debate ;-).
>
> The free cultural works definition has been adopted by major OER iniatives.
> It has been adopted by the Wikimedia Foundation -- by far the worlds largest
> OER project.
>
> See: http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Resolution:Licensing_policy
>
> Creative Commons distinguishes between free cultural works approved
> licenses and those which don't meet the requirements of the free cultural
> works definition,
>
> See for example the "Free cultural works approved" logo on this CC-BY
> license:
>
> http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/us/
>
> The WikiEducator policy on community governance clearly articulates its
> commitment to the free cultural works definition  and carries the free
> cultural works definition logo on the site.
>
> I'm not sure whether its possible to achieve a "value-neutral"
> interpretation of freedom because freedom is a value, hence the need to
> define clearly what different projects mean by freedom at a practical level.
>
> Look forward to reading your concerns regarding "moral tones"
>
> Cheers
> Wayne
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: wikieducator@googlegroups.com on behalf of Leigh Blackall
> Sent: Wed 9/17/2008 5:13 PM
> To: wikieducator@googlegroups.com
> Subject: [WikiEducator] Re: another text on OER, but not an OER!!
>
> Globally this is OK. On a loca

[WikiEducator] Re: another text on OER, but not an OER!!

[Wayne Mackintosh]

Hi Leigh,

>From your perspective -- what are the moral tones which are problematic? I 
>would like to get a better understanding of the issues you face on the ground. 

The Free cultural works definition was developed in an attempt to define a free 
cultural work. 

Lessig's book on Free Culture: How Big Media Uses Technology and the Law to 
Lock Down Culture and Control Creativity was a seminal publication in the free 
knowledge movement. Yet the book fell short of defining the a free cultural 
work. 

The free cultural works definition was an attempt to define this -- very 
similar to the Open Source Software definition. Software is different from 
content. There are are other definitional projects like the Open Knowledge 
Definition, see:http://www.opendefinition.org/1.0/ -- which in all material 
respects also protect the the essential freedoms, as in the case of the free 
cultural works definition.

Kim Tucker's essay "Say Libre" 

http://www.wikieducator.org/Say_Libre

and corresponding work on the "Libre knowledge" definition

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libre_knowledge

is also based on the essential freedom -- so we're in good company.

There are subtle differences, for example concerning the requirement of 
attribution. This is also a complex debate ;-).

The free cultural works definition has been adopted by major OER iniatives. It 
has been adopted by the Wikimedia Foundation -- by far the worlds largest OER 
project. 

See: http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Resolution:Licensing_policy

Creative Commons distinguishes between free cultural works approved licenses 
and those which don't meet the requirements of the free cultural works 
definition, 

See for example the "Free cultural works approved" logo on this CC-BY license:

http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/us/

The WikiEducator policy on community governance clearly articulates its 
commitment to the free cultural works definition  and carries the free cultural 
works definition logo on the site.

I'm not sure whether its possible to achieve a "value-neutral" interpretation 
of freedom because freedom is a value, hence the need to define clearly what 
different projects mean by freedom at a practical level. 

Look forward to reading your concerns regarding "moral tones"
 
Cheers
Wayne




 


-Original Message-
From: wikieducator@googlegroups.com on behalf of Leigh Blackall
Sent: Wed 9/17/2008 5:13 PM
To: wikieducator@googlegroups.com
Subject: [WikiEducator] Re: another text on OER, but not an OER!!
 
Globally this is OK. On a local scale this isn't so easy.
 To my mind - the free cultural works definition needs work. It needs to be
more morally neutral. It *could* be an important defining document, but as
it is, I feel I can't subscribe due to some of the moral tones in it. It may
have changed some since our big copyright debates from 2007.. so perhaps I
should check..

On Thu, Sep 18, 2008 at 11:40 AM, Wayne <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>  Hi Leigh,
>
> That's a real challenge -- but surmountable through good education and
> advice to help folk take an informed decision.
>
> By setting a leading example and remaining true to our values -- we'll win
> many over to our side :-).
>
> Cheers
> Wayne
>
> On Thu, 2008-09-18 at 11:34 +1200, Leigh Blackall wrote:
>
> Hmm, its a big problem my end, because if and when some of my colleagues
> see the use of this and other restrictive licenses, all they see is that its
> Creative Commons and think that equates to OER... I am sensing a rise in the
> use of restrictions as the 2nd wave of OER comes on board without fully
> considering it
>
>  On Thu, Sep 18, 2008 at 11:30 AM, Stephen Downes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
>
>  Wayne wrote:
>
> Yeah Leigh, I don't get either :-(
>
> I would love to hear the rationales from these leading OER advocates who
> publish works on the topic of OER under a ND license.
>
>   I would guess they have a commercial distribution deal with Scribd. That
> would explain the ND - they don't want a (more usable) HTML version out
> there diluting the marketing impact.
>
> I'm just guessing, though.
>
> -- Stephen
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> --
> Leigh Blackall
> +64(0)21736539
> skype - leigh_blackall
> SL - Leroy Goalpost
> http://learnonline.wordpress.com<http://console.mxlogic.com/redir/?5AQsFELcEICSnzhO-qejhOqenPo0c_Zz2I3Vg_z5oEbh-BendTV4sUMqehPP3bVKVIz4xlK5LbIAVb5z3uXKyc2cOFeFcwY7KxXc731qoueecaXoHa4WQ9DmGvM0454qR8D-hzlJqDbCTzhOepdEFFEK6zBxwQsLCTT3pFr0mhmgQwTrpRyqnjh02_id46MHcDYjh1fM-pEwH0Qg1wq1o1Cy0wTcQggHcQgr0Qg1wq1pExd49KvxYYmfSk3q9J4SOYqenPhOUYqejuDDQ>
>
>
>
>
> >
>


-- 
--
Leigh Blackall
+64(0)21736539
skype - leigh_blackall
SL - Ler

[WikiEducator] Re: another text on OER, but not an OER!!

[Leigh Blackall]

Globally this is OK. On a local scale this isn't so easy.
 To my mind - the free cultural works definition needs work. It needs to be
more morally neutral. It *could* be an important defining document, but as
it is, I feel I can't subscribe due to some of the moral tones in it. It may
have changed some since our big copyright debates from 2007.. so perhaps I
should check..

On Thu, Sep 18, 2008 at 11:40 AM, Wayne <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>  Hi Leigh,
>
> That's a real challenge -- but surmountable through good education and
> advice to help folk take an informed decision.
>
> By setting a leading example and remaining true to our values -- we'll win
> many over to our side :-).
>
> Cheers
> Wayne
>
> On Thu, 2008-09-18 at 11:34 +1200, Leigh Blackall wrote:
>
> Hmm, its a big problem my end, because if and when some of my colleagues
> see the use of this and other restrictive licenses, all they see is that its
> Creative Commons and think that equates to OER... I am sensing a rise in the
> use of restrictions as the 2nd wave of OER comes on board without fully
> considering it
>
>  On Thu, Sep 18, 2008 at 11:30 AM, Stephen Downes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
>
>  Wayne wrote:
>
> Yeah Leigh, I don't get either :-(
>
> I would love to hear the rationales from these leading OER advocates who
> publish works on the topic of OER under a ND license.
>
>   I would guess they have a commercial distribution deal with Scribd. That
> would explain the ND - they don't want a (more usable) HTML version out
> there diluting the marketing impact.
>
> I'm just guessing, though.
>
> -- Stephen
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> --
> Leigh Blackall
> +64(0)21736539
> skype - leigh_blackall
> SL - Leroy Goalpost
> http://learnonline.wordpress.com
>
>
>
>
> >
>


-- 
--
Leigh Blackall
+64(0)21736539
skype - leigh_blackall
SL - Leroy Goalpost
http://learnonline.wordpress.com

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[WikiEducator] Re: another text on OER, but not an OER!!

[Wayne]

Hi Leigh,

That's a real challenge -- but surmountable through good education and
advice to help folk take an informed decision.

By setting a leading example and remaining true to our values -- we'll
win many over to our side :-).

Cheers
Wayne 

On Thu, 2008-09-18 at 11:34 +1200, Leigh Blackall wrote:
> Hmm, its a big problem my end, because if and when some of my
> colleagues see the use of this and other restrictive licenses, all
> they see is that its Creative Commons and think that equates to OER...
> I am sensing a rise in the use of restrictions as the 2nd wave of OER
> comes on board without fully considering it
> 
> 
> On Thu, Sep 18, 2008 at 11:30 AM, Stephen Downes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> 
> Wayne wrote: 
> 
> > Yeah Leigh, I don't get either :-(
> > 
> > I would love to hear the rationales from these leading OER
> > advocates who publish works on the topic of OER under a ND
> > license. 
> 
> I would guess they have a commercial distribution deal with
> Scribd. That would explain the ND - they don't want a (more
> usable) HTML version out there diluting the marketing impact.
> 
> I'm just guessing, though.
> 
> -- Stephen
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> --
> Leigh Blackall
> +64(0)21736539
> skype - leigh_blackall
> SL - Leroy Goalpost
> http://learnonline.wordpress.com
> 
> 
> 
> > 

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[WikiEducator] Re: another text on OER, but not an OER!!

[Leigh Blackall]

Hmm, its a big problem my end, because if and when some of my colleagues see
the use of this and other restrictive licenses, all they see is that its
Creative Commons and think that equates to OER... I am sensing a rise in the
use of restrictions as the 2nd wave of OER comes on board without fully
considering it

On Thu, Sep 18, 2008 at 11:30 AM, Stephen Downes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>  Wayne wrote:
>
> Yeah Leigh, I don't get either :-(
>
> I would love to hear the rationales from these leading OER advocates who
> publish works on the topic of OER under a ND license.
>
> I would guess they have a commercial distribution deal with Scribd. That
> would explain the ND - they don't want a (more usable) HTML version out
> there diluting the marketing impact.
>
> I'm just guessing, though.
>
> -- Stephen
>
>
> >
>


-- 
--
Leigh Blackall
+64(0)21736539
skype - leigh_blackall
SL - Leroy Goalpost
http://learnonline.wordpress.com

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[WikiEducator] Re: another text on OER, but not an OER!!

[Wayne]

On Wed, 2008-09-17 at 20:30 -0300, Stephen Downes wrote:

> I would guess they have a commercial distribution deal with Scribd.
> That would explain the ND - they don't want a (more usable) HTML
> version out there diluting the marketing impact.


If I was a betting man -- you'd have my bet :-). Wonder what the
statistical probability would be on making money from this wager :-)

Cheers
Wayne

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[WikiEducator] Re: another text on OER, but not an OER!!

[Stephen Downes]

Wayne wrote:
> Yeah Leigh, I don't get either :-(
>
> I would love to hear the rationales from these leading OER advocates 
> who publish works on the topic of OER under a ND license.
I would guess they have a commercial distribution deal with Scribd. That 
would explain the ND - they don't want a (more usable) HTML version out 
there diluting the marketing impact.

I'm just guessing, though.

-- Stephen


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[WikiEducator] Re: another text on OER, but not an OER!!

[Wayne]

Yeah Leigh, I don't get either :-(

I would love to hear the rationales from these leading OER advocates who
publish works on the topic of OER under a ND license. 

Over the last year I have received two invitations to publish research
articles/chapters in special editions dealing with the topic of OER. My
standard question is what license will you publish your special edition
under?  Typically the license does not meet the requirements of the free
cultural works definition and then I humbly decline to publish under
their restrictive licensing regimes. That's freedom of choice.

I'll leave the NC restriction aside here as there is divided opinion on
this and my personal views are well documented in this forum. However, I
just don't get the ND restriction applied to research output focused on
promoting OER. Lets take an absurd example -- What if one of these
publications cites work from WikiEducator which is licensed under
CC-BY-SA. Sure, under fair usage/fair dealing a publication could lock
down a CC-BY-SA citation under ND. 

But where is the ethic? The ethic of research is to acknowledge your
sources --- does this ethic extend to respecting the intentions of the
original creator?  If an author releases content under a copyleft /
sharealike requirement - is there an ethical obligation to ensure that
the "derivative" work is released under the same licence.
Hypothetically, if an OER work is published under a CC-BY-NC-ND license
and uses extensive material from a CC-BY-SA source -- would this be a
transgression of research ethic? Similarly the ethic of research is to
acknowledge your sources. At conceptual level the majority of research
are derivative works based on the ideas of those who have gone before
us. Given this ethic -- I don't see the rationale behind the ND
restriction. 

In the case of a cultural work, for example a digital painting -- I
understand the ethic of applying a ND restriction because the digital
artwork is the expression of the artist and the prime purpose of the
creation. 

>From a sociological perspective -- I don't think licenses should be used
to regulate intent, but that's another discussion.

Those of us working on the OER arena have lots to think about. After
all, the purpose of education is to share knowledge freely.

Cheers
Wayne


On Thu, 2008-09-18 at 10:29 +1200, Leigh Blackall wrote:
> MIT keep missing the issue with their licenses!
> http://mitpress.mit.edu/opening_up_education/
> 
> -- 
> --
> Leigh Blackall
> +64(0)21736539
> skype - leigh_blackall
> SL - Leroy Goalpost
> http://learnonline.wordpress.com
> 
> 
> 
> > 

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[WikiEducator] Re: another text on OER, but not an OER!!

[Randy Fisher]

How ironic!

Someone should write an opinion piece in a highly regarded publication to
draw attention to the irony, and some might say, hypocrisy.

- Randy

On Wed, Sep 17, 2008 at 3:29 PM, Leigh Blackall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:

> MIT keep missing the issue with their licenses!
> http://mitpress.mit.edu/opening_up_education/
>
> --
> --
> Leigh Blackall
> +64(0)21736539
> skype - leigh_blackall
> SL - Leroy Goalpost
> http://learnonline.wordpress.com
>
> >
>


-- 

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