[WikiEN-l] Earth Deletion Discussion

[Elias Friedman]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Earth_(2nd_nomination)

And before anyone gets too outraged, do make note of today's date.

Elias Friedman A.S., EMT-P ⚕
אליהו מתתיהו בן צבי
elipo...@gmail.com
http://elipongo.blogspot.com/
___
WikiEN-l mailing list
WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org
To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

Re: [WikiEN-l] Earth Deletion Discussion

[George Herbert]

On Wed, Apr 1, 2009 at 12:04 AM, Elias Friedman  wrote:

>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Earth_(2nd_nomination)


I can't find a single reference on it which wasn't written by someone
involved in the project.

I mean, really, COI and NPOV problems don't come any more clearly
demonstrated than this.

Where are our reliable independent sources?

We have standards, people.


-- 
-george william herbert
george.herb...@gmail.com
___
WikiEN-l mailing list
WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org
To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

Re: [WikiEN-l] Earth Deletion Discussion

[geni]

2009/4/1 Elias Friedman :
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Earth_(2nd_nomination)
>
> And before anyone gets too outraged, do make note of today's date.


One of these days people will learn to be original.

-- 
geni

___
WikiEN-l mailing list
WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org
To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

Re: [WikiEN-l] Earth Deletion Discussion

[Ken Arromdee]

Generally, I'm not a fan of this sort of joke.  They give the impression of
"we get to break the rules when we want to, as long as it's funny.
Meanwhile, everyone else has to follow them."

(And WP:COI really does seem to say it's a conflict of interest for an
article about the Earth to be made by Earthlings.  It's easy to invoke IAR
and say that that's not what it's supposed to mean, but it's not all that
different from other examples that we're supposed to take seriously as being
COI.)


___
WikiEN-l mailing list
WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org
To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

Re: [WikiEN-l] Earth Deletion Discussion

[Oskar Sigvardsson]

On Wed, Apr 1, 2009 at 4:34 PM, Ken Arromdee  wrote:
> Generally, I'm not a fan of this sort of joke.  They give the impression of
> "we get to break the rules when we want to, as long as it's funny.
> Meanwhile, everyone else has to follow them."
>
> (And WP:COI really does seem to say it's a conflict of interest for an
> article about the Earth to be made by Earthlings.  It's easy to invoke IAR
> and say that that's not what it's supposed to mean, but it's not all that
> different from other examples that we're supposed to take seriously as being
> COI.)

Oh, lighten up! People are just having a little fun, no one takes it
seriously, and no one is "breaking the rules". People are just having
a laugh! It's a small bit of satire at the culture at AfD, and an
opportunity for people to make Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy (our
spiritual ancestor) jokes.

--Oskar

___
WikiEN-l mailing list
WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org
To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

Re: [WikiEN-l] Earth Deletion Discussion

[James Farrar]

2009/4/1 Oskar Sigvardsson :
> On Wed, Apr 1, 2009 at 4:34 PM, Ken Arromdee  wrote:
>> Generally, I'm not a fan of this sort of joke.  They give the impression of
>> "we get to break the rules when we want to, as long as it's funny.
>> Meanwhile, everyone else has to follow them."
>>
>> (And WP:COI really does seem to say it's a conflict of interest for an
>> article about the Earth to be made by Earthlings.  It's easy to invoke IAR
>> and say that that's not what it's supposed to mean, but it's not all that
>> different from other examples that we're supposed to take seriously as being
>> COI.)
>
> Oh, lighten up! People are just having a little fun, no one takes it
> seriously, and no one is "breaking the rules". People are just having
> a laugh! It's a small bit of satire at the culture at AfD, and an
> opportunity for people to make Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy (our
> spiritual ancestor) jokes.

Amen. Surely it's a good sign that the community can take the piss out
of itself.

___
WikiEN-l mailing list
WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org
To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

Re: [WikiEN-l] Earth Deletion Discussion

[Brian]

So far each april fools thread I've seen has had at least one buzzkiller in
it.

On Wed, Apr 1, 2009 at 8:34 AM, Ken Arromdee  wrote:

> Generally, I'm not a fan of this sort of joke.  They give the impression of
> "we get to break the rules when we want to, as long as it's funny.
> Meanwhile, everyone else has to follow them."
>
> (And WP:COI really does seem to say it's a conflict of interest for an
> article about the Earth to be made by Earthlings.  It's easy to invoke IAR
> and say that that's not what it's supposed to mean, but it's not all that
> different from other examples that we're supposed to take seriously as
> being
> COI.)
>
>
> ___
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>
___
WikiEN-l mailing list
WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org
To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

Re: [WikiEN-l] Earth Deletion Discussion

[WJhonson]

<>
 
If we really need the article to be made by people from other planets, I  
have a few candidates I could offer.
 
Will Johnson
 
 
**Feeling the pinch at the grocery store?  Make dinner for $10 or 
less. (http://food.aol.com/frugal-feasts?ncid=emlcntusfood0001)
___
WikiEN-l mailing list
WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org
To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

Re: [WikiEN-l] Earth Deletion Discussion

[Casey Brown]

On Wed, Apr 1, 2009 at 10:34 AM, Ken Arromdee  wrote:
> (And WP:COI really does seem to say it's a conflict of interest for an
> article about the Earth to be made by Earthlings.  It's easy to invoke IAR
> and say that that's not what it's supposed to mean, but it's not all that
> different from other examples that we're supposed to take seriously as being
> COI.)
>

In all seriousness, this is why it's just a guideline and not a
policy.  There are no problems with a subject editing his or her own
article (or someone directly related to the subject), as long as they
follow our other policies and guidelines.

-- 
Casey Brown
Cbrown1023

---
Note:  This e-mail address is used for mailing lists.  Personal emails sent to
this address will probably get lost.

___
WikiEN-l mailing list
WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org
To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

Re: [WikiEN-l] Earth Deletion Discussion

[Sam Korn]

On Wed, Apr 1, 2009 at 7:24 PM, Brian  wrote:
> So far each april fools thread I've seen has had at least one buzzkiller in
> it.

Personally, I've never understood why deliberately misleading people
is supposed to be funny.  I don't particularly enjoy having my time
wasted by people having a lark just because it is a certain day of the
year.  I don't see why we should tolerate disruption that would, on
any other day of the year, be instantly dealt with.

Now, I don't make a big deal out this on the wiki, because dozens of
people will jump down my throat with exactly the kind of language you
use.  I recognise that, apparently, other people find this kind of
thing fun and totally acceptable.  But I can certainly sympathise with
the people who you describe as "buzzkillers".

For them, of course, the buzz has been killed already and they are
more than a little fed up.

Sam

-- 
Sam
PGP public key: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Sam_Korn/public_key

___
WikiEN-l mailing list
WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org
To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

Re: [WikiEN-l] Earth Deletion Discussion

[Dan Dascalescu]

On Wed, Apr 1, 2009 at 13:08, Casey Brown  wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 1, 2009 at 10:34 AM, Ken Arromdee  wrote:
>> (And WP:COI really does seem to say it's a conflict of interest for an
>> article about the Earth to be made by Earthlings.  It's easy to invoke IAR
>> and say that that's not what it's supposed to mean, but it's not all that
>> different from other examples that we're supposed to take seriously as being
>> COI.)
>
> In all seriousness, this is why it's just a guideline and not a
> policy.  There are no problems with a subject editing his or her own
> article (or someone directly related to the subject), as long as they
> follow our other policies and guidelines.

Unfortunately, that was not my experience with the FOSS article
[[MojoMojo]]. I am one of the project contributors and have first-hand
knowledge of the subject. After submitting outside references from
reliable specialized sources,  and disclosing the fact that I am a
contributor, I was accused of COI throughout the AfD and on IRC.

-- Dan
[[User:Dandv]]

___
WikiEN-l mailing list
WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org
To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

Re: [WikiEN-l] Earth Deletion Discussion

[Chris Down]

Don't get me wrong, I like April Fools, but there is so much unfunny stuff
around...

Man, whoever takes the cleanup job at the end of today has my condolences.

- Chris

On Wed, Apr 1, 2009 at 9:29 PM, Sam Korn  wrote:

> On Wed, Apr 1, 2009 at 7:24 PM, Brian  wrote:
> > So far each april fools thread I've seen has had at least one buzzkiller
> in
> > it.
>
> Personally, I've never understood why deliberately misleading people
> is supposed to be funny.  I don't particularly enjoy having my time
> wasted by people having a lark just because it is a certain day of the
> year.  I don't see why we should tolerate disruption that would, on
> any other day of the year, be instantly dealt with.
>
> Now, I don't make a big deal out this on the wiki, because dozens of
> people will jump down my throat with exactly the kind of language you
> use.  I recognise that, apparently, other people find this kind of
> thing fun and totally acceptable.  But I can certainly sympathise with
> the people who you describe as "buzzkillers".
>
> For them, of course, the buzz has been killed already and they are
> more than a little fed up.
>
> Sam
>
> --
> Sam
> PGP public key: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Sam_Korn/public_key
>
> ___
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>
___
WikiEN-l mailing list
WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org
To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

Re: [WikiEN-l] Earth Deletion Discussion

[Casey Brown]

On Wed, Apr 1, 2009 at 4:50 PM, Dan Dascalescu
 wrote:
> Unfortunately, that was not my experience with the FOSS article
> [[MojoMojo]]. I am one of the project contributors and have first-hand
> knowledge of the subject. After submitting outside references from
> reliable specialized sources,  and disclosing the fact that I am a
> contributor, I was accused of COI throughout the AfD and on IRC.
>

Yes, that's a sad reality. :-(  Wikipedians respond too crazily to
COIs... what we usually suggest is that people don't tell others that
they have first-hand knowledge. :-)  In the end, it should matter what
is written and how it's supported -- not who wrote it.

-- 
Casey Brown
Cbrown1023

---
Note:  This e-mail address is used for mailing lists.  Personal emails sent to
this address will probably get lost.

___
WikiEN-l mailing list
WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org
To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

Re: [WikiEN-l] Earth Deletion Discussion

[KillerChihuahua]

George Herbert wrote:
> We have standards, people.
>
>   
{citeneeded}

___
WikiEN-l mailing list
WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org
To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

Re: [WikiEN-l] Earth Deletion Discussion

[Dan Dascalescu]

On Wed, Apr 1, 2009 at 14:06, Casey Brown  wrote:
> Yes, that's a sad reality. :-(  Wikipedians respond too crazily to
> COIs... what we usually suggest is that people don't tell others that
> they have first-hand knowledge. :-)

Here is dmoz.org's policy on insider editors:

"The ODP exists as a non-commercial, end-user resource created by Web
users for Web users.  We do not bar editors with business
affiliations, since those editors with their own sites usually know
their competition and related sites better than anyone.  This
knowledge can be ideal for helping build an authoritative directory."

Does Wikipedia have something similar?

> In the end, it should matter what
> is written and how it's supported -- not who wrote it.

This idea sounds great. Is there a policy or rule for it?

I'm asking because in the same [[Wikipedia:Articles for
deletion/MojoMojo]], users of this FOSS pitched in with various
arguments, and were flagged as:

"[[User:foo]] has made few or no other edits outside this topic."

I find this detrimental to Wikipedia because it means that only
established Wikipedia users should edit a specialized article (or talk
about its deletion). But in the vast majority of cases, FOSS
developers are focused on development and don't even have a Wikipedia
account. The above flag then effectively muzzles the voices of those
who know, in favor of those who have made many edits but have little
particular experience in the subject matter.

___
WikiEN-l mailing list
WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org
To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

Re: [WikiEN-l] Earth Deletion Discussion

[Casey Brown]

On Wed, Apr 1, 2009 at 7:06 PM, Dan Dascalescu
 wrote:
>> In the end, it should matter what
>> is written and how it's supported -- not who wrote it.
>
> This idea sounds great. Is there a policy or rule for it?

? :-)


-- 
Casey Brown
Cbrown1023

---
Note:  This e-mail address is used for mailing lists.  Personal emails sent to
this address will probably get lost.

___
WikiEN-l mailing list
WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org
To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

Re: [WikiEN-l] Earth Deletion Discussion

[Ken Arromdee]

On Thu, 2 Apr 2009, Casey Brown wrote:
> >> In the end, it should matter what
> >> is written and how it's supported -- not who wrote it.
> > This idea sounds great. Is there a policy or rule for it?
> ? :-)

Doesn't work.  Any rule which says to use common sense will lose out against
a more conventional rule.  The reason is that rules really become necessary
when you need to force someone else to follow them.  If the rule gives a
specific, detailed, description of what is and isn't allowed, with no room
for human judgment, you can force someone else to follow it.  If the rule is
based on human judgment, you can't.

"If everyone agrees, this is what you can do" always loses to "if everyone
doesn't agree, this is what you must do".  After all, having a dispute means
that not everyone agrees.


___
WikiEN-l mailing list
WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org
To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

Re: [WikiEN-l] Earth Deletion Discussion

[Carcharoth]

On Fri, Apr 3, 2009 at 7:27 AM, Ken Arromdee  wrote:
> On Thu, 2 Apr 2009, Casey Brown wrote:
>> >> In the end, it should matter what
>> >> is written and how it's supported -- not who wrote it.
>> > This idea sounds great. Is there a policy or rule for it?
>> ? :-)
>
> Doesn't work.  Any rule which says to use common sense will lose out against
> a more conventional rule.  The reason is that rules really become necessary
> when you need to force someone else to follow them.  If the rule gives a
> specific, detailed, description of what is and isn't allowed, with no room
> for human judgment, you can force someone else to follow it.  If the rule is
> based on human judgment, you can't.
>
> "If everyone agrees, this is what you can do" always loses to "if everyone
> doesn't agree, this is what you must do".  After all, having a dispute means
> that not everyone agrees.

Not quite. If someone disagrees with you, you can explain why they are
wrong, and at the end of the argument, you can appeal to common sense.
Sometimes, if that person steps back and considers things with that
mention of common sense in mind, they will be persuaded.

I see appeals to common sense as a way to jolt people out of
rules-lawyering. But sometimes in a more successful way than saying
something like "Ignore all rules".

Carcharoth

___
WikiEN-l mailing list
WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org
To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

Re: [WikiEN-l] Earth Deletion Discussion

[Dan Dascalescu]

> I see appeals to common sense as a way to jolt people out of
> rules-lawyering.

If only more admins had any common sense... I mean no [[WP:ATTACK]] of course:

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Foswiki&diff=prev&oldid=268623922

Dan

___
WikiEN-l mailing list
WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org
To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

Re: [WikiEN-l] Earth Deletion Discussion

[geni]

2009/4/3 Carcharoth :
> Not quite. If someone disagrees with you, you can explain why they are
> wrong, and at the end of the argument, you can appeal to common sense.
> Sometimes, if that person steps back and considers things with that
> mention of common sense in mind, they will be persuaded.

Personally I would prefer that people considered things logically.

-- 
geni

___
WikiEN-l mailing list
WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org
To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

Re: [WikiEN-l] Earth Deletion Discussion

[Ray Saintonge]

Carcharoth wrote:
> On Fri, Apr 3, 2009 at 7:27 AM, Ken Arromdee wrote:
>   
>> Doesn't work.  Any rule which says to use common sense will lose out 
>> against
>> a more conventional rule.  The reason is that rules really become necessary
>> when you need to force someone else to follow them.  If the rule gives a
>> specific, detailed, description of what is and isn't allowed, with no room
>> for human judgment, you can force someone else to follow it.  If the rule is
>> based on human judgment, you can't.
>>
>> "If everyone agrees, this is what you can do" always loses to "if everyone
>> doesn't agree, this is what you must do".  After all, having a dispute means
>> that not everyone agrees.
>> 
> Not quite. If someone disagrees with you, you can explain why they are
> wrong, and at the end of the argument, you can appeal to common sense.
> Sometimes, if that person steps back and considers things with that
> mention of common sense in mind, they will be persuaded.
>
> I see appeals to common sense as a way to jolt people out of
> rules-lawyering. But sometimes in a more successful way than saying
> something like "Ignore all rules".

Explaining why someone is wrong presupposes that he is in fact wrong, 
and that you are right.  More often than not he feels the same way from 
the opposite perspective, and we have a POV battle.

It is unfortunate that some people aren't smart enough to live without 
rules to the point that mere guidelines become inviolable rules.  This 
creates a culture of winners and losers.  Keeping rules to an absolute 
minimum promotes innovation, and establishes more fertile ground for new 
ways of doing things.  Most new ideas get nowhere for their own 
reasons.  It's important to allow them a natural death through disuse; 
killing off these humble ideas quickly just gives something for people 
to argue about.

Ec

___
WikiEN-l mailing list
WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org
To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l