Re: [Wikimedia-l] Is the Code of Conduct in force?

[Gerard Meijssen]

Hoi,
As far as I am concerned we have working and workable procedures. The
problem that I see is that the primacy is not with the "community" in
everything. We have multiple communities and there is no single subset that
can claim sovereignty over everything with the possible exception of the
board of the Wikimedia Foundation. Who has an explicit role in this.

What I have observed is that there is too much discussion that can be
characterised with "turf war" and too little discussion about what it is we
do and how we can improve on it. Quality of the content of our projects
trumps what some of the community want every time. We are so engrossed in
what we do and for most of the vocal ones it is English Wikipedia so much
so that we accept its resolutions as resolutions. They are often baked in
the software and to be honest that is extremely problematic.

When you start with our primary objective; sharing the sum of all
knowledge, the experiment performed on the Volapük Wikipedia is of extreme
interest. It generated a lot of articles using translation software and the
result was a lot of interest including people reading it. Fast forward and
you find articles created based on DATA for Wikipedias that are actually
useful. These articles provide a purpose and are read. People still object
because their role as an editor is diminished and "who is going to update
when the data is wrong?".  Issues like this can be solved but they do not
get attention by the WMF staff because of "the community". They do not get
attention from the "community leaders" because obviously it would not play
well with "their" community.

Just consider what we are about. Are we about what we aim to achieve or are
we about whatever "community" and the interplay with its "adversary"  the
Foundation? I do care about what we aim to achieve, I resent the
inattention our objectives get.
Thanks,
 GerardM



On 6 March 2017 at 20:07, Rogol Domedonfors  wrote:

> Gerard
>
> On Mon, Mar 6, 2017 at 7:28 AM, you wrote:
>
> >
> > For Rogol and Pine I have an additional challenge; when the WMF is to
> > support the community, is their time better spend serving quality or is
> > their time better spend discussing endless procedures that make us stick
> in
> > the mud as it stifles initiative?
> >
>
> A fallacious dichotomy, as no doubt you were well aware.  We need to
> establish working and workable procedures that allow Community and
> Foundation to engage together in planning at the level of long-term
> strategy and medium-term technical roadmap so that the WMF are able to
> deliver quality products that support the mission effectively.  Do you
> think we have those already?  Or do you think we can do without them?
>
> "Rogol"
> ___
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Is the Code of Conduct in force?

[Adrian Raddatz]

Agreed as well. Anders, that is one of the most sensible posts I've seen on
this list in a long time.

Adrian Raddatz

On Mon, Mar 6, 2017 at 10:44 PM, Peter Southwood <
peter.southw...@telkomsa.net> wrote:

> Agreed,
> Peter
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On
> Behalf Of Anders Wennersten
> Sent: Monday, 06 March 2017 9:21 PM
> To: wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Is the Code of Conduct in force?
>
> We have 61000 editors  that made more the 5 edits last month and 8800
> making more then 100 edits. Last election to the Board attracted 5500
> voters. These figures gives a magnitude of the numbers in the community.
>
> The number of active on this list are around 50-100, and normal
> participations in meta discussion (except when it was for Visual editor)
> are at best 100-200.
>
> I truly believe we should not be content to say these 100-200 are the
> community or spokespersons for the community. And I admire the approach
> being made by WMF in the strategy project, to actively try to reach out to
> a broader audience then these 100-200
>
> So I believe her has always been an issue of the dialogue between the
> community and WMF, both referring to who is the community and the dialogue
> in itself. But I do see that the approach being taken by WMF now and lately
> does a lot to resolve this issue and and is worth both praise and support
>
> And I do would like to see less of "We the community" by people on this
> list
>
> Anders
>
>
>
> Den 2017-03-06 kl. 20:07, skrev Rogol Domedonfors:
> > Gerard
> >
> > On Mon, Mar 6, 2017 at 7:28 AM, you wrote:
> >
> >> For Rogol and Pine I have an additional challenge; when the WMF is to
> >> support the community, is their time better spend serving quality or
> >> is their time better spend discussing endless procedures that make us
> >> stick in the mud as it stifles initiative?
> >>
> > A fallacious dichotomy, as no doubt you were well aware.  We need to
> > establish working and workable procedures that allow Community and
> > Foundation to engage together in planning at the level of long-term
> > strategy and medium-term technical roadmap so that the WMF are able to
> > deliver quality products that support the mission effectively.  Do you
> > think we have those already?  Or do you think we can do without them?
> >
> > "Rogol"
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
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> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > 
>
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Is the Code of Conduct in force?

[Peter Southwood]

Agreed,
Peter

-Original Message-
From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of 
Anders Wennersten
Sent: Monday, 06 March 2017 9:21 PM
To: wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Is the Code of Conduct in force?

We have 61000 editors  that made more the 5 edits last month and 8800 making 
more then 100 edits. Last election to the Board attracted 5500 voters. These 
figures gives a magnitude of the numbers in the community.

The number of active on this list are around 50-100, and normal participations 
in meta discussion (except when it was for Visual editor) are at best 100-200.

I truly believe we should not be content to say these 100-200 are the community 
or spokespersons for the community. And I admire the approach being made by WMF 
in the strategy project, to actively try to reach out to a broader audience 
then these 100-200

So I believe her has always been an issue of the dialogue between the community 
and WMF, both referring to who is the community and the dialogue in itself. But 
I do see that the approach being taken by WMF now and lately does a lot to 
resolve this issue and and is worth both praise and support

And I do would like to see less of "We the community" by people on this list

Anders



Den 2017-03-06 kl. 20:07, skrev Rogol Domedonfors:
> Gerard
>
> On Mon, Mar 6, 2017 at 7:28 AM, you wrote:
>
>> For Rogol and Pine I have an additional challenge; when the WMF is to 
>> support the community, is their time better spend serving quality or 
>> is their time better spend discussing endless procedures that make us 
>> stick in the mud as it stifles initiative?
>>
> A fallacious dichotomy, as no doubt you were well aware.  We need to 
> establish working and workable procedures that allow Community and 
> Foundation to engage together in planning at the level of long-term 
> strategy and medium-term technical roadmap so that the WMF are able to 
> deliver quality products that support the mission effectively.  Do you 
> think we have those already?  Or do you think we can do without them?
>
> "Rogol"
> ___
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Is the Code of Conduct in force?

[Pine W]

Anders,

I agree that there have been some positive developments in the
WMF-community relationship over the last year or so. I think that we hit a
rough patch in the past few months, and I'm hoping that it is behind us.

Figuring out how to gauge community sentiment is a really hard problem.
RfCs and email lists both have issues with the limitations of
self-selection, and even as a regular contributor to this list I think that
consensus on this list among 10 people in a thread is not the same as
consensus among 100 people in an RfC or the tens of thousands in the entire
Wikiverse. I like the idea of surveys with random samples, and ENWP has
tried to get broader representation of people in RfCs using bot invitations
to participate. Broad surveys and dialogues are time-consuming and the
methodology can be challenging. I'm not sure what to suggest to improve our
methods of gauging community sentiment. I think that all of our tools have
limitations. I'd be glad to discuss that in a separate thread if you're
interested; I think of this as being both a research challenge and a
governance challenge .

Pine


On Mon, Mar 6, 2017 at 11:20 AM, Anders Wennersten  wrote:

> We have 61000 editors  that made more the 5 edits last month and 8800
> making more then 100 edits. Last election to the Board attracted 5500
> voters. These figures gives a magnitude of the numbers in the community.
>
> The number of active on this list are around 50-100, and normal
> participations in meta discussion (except when it was for Visual editor)
> are at best 100-200.
>
> I truly believe we should not be content to say these 100-200 are the
> community or spokespersons for the community. And I admire the approach
> being made by WMF in the strategy project, to actively try to reach out to
> a broader audience then these 100-200
>
> So I believe her has always been an issue of the dialogue between the
> community and WMF, both referring to who is the community and the dialogue
> in itself. But I do see that the approach being taken by WMF now and lately
> does a lot to resolve this issue and and is worth both praise and support
>
> And I do would like to see less of "We the community" by people on this
> list
>
> Anders
>
>
>
>
> Den 2017-03-06 kl. 20:07, skrev Rogol Domedonfors:
>
>> Gerard
>>
>> On Mon, Mar 6, 2017 at 7:28 AM, you wrote:
>>
>> For Rogol and Pine I have an additional challenge; when the WMF is to
>>> support the community, is their time better spend serving quality or is
>>> their time better spend discussing endless procedures that make us stick
>>> in
>>> the mud as it stifles initiative?
>>>
>>> A fallacious dichotomy, as no doubt you were well aware.  We need to
>> establish working and workable procedures that allow Community and
>> Foundation to engage together in planning at the level of long-term
>> strategy and medium-term technical roadmap so that the WMF are able to
>> deliver quality products that support the mission effectively.  Do you
>> think we have those already?  Or do you think we can do without them?
>>
>> "Rogol"
>> ___
>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik
>> i/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik
>> i/Wikimedia-l
>> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>> 
>>
>
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Is the Code of Conduct in force?

[Anders Wennersten]

We have 61000 editors  that made more the 5 edits last month and 8800 
making more then 100 edits. Last election to the Board attracted 5500 
voters. These figures gives a magnitude of the numbers in the community.


The number of active on this list are around 50-100, and normal 
participations in meta discussion (except when it was for Visual editor) 
are at best 100-200.


I truly believe we should not be content to say these 100-200 are the 
community or spokespersons for the community. And I admire the approach 
being made by WMF in the strategy project, to actively try to reach out 
to a broader audience then these 100-200


So I believe her has always been an issue of the dialogue between the 
community and WMF, both referring to who is the community and the 
dialogue in itself. But I do see that the approach being taken by WMF 
now and lately does a lot to resolve this issue and and is worth both 
praise and support


And I do would like to see less of "We the community" by people on this list

Anders



Den 2017-03-06 kl. 20:07, skrev Rogol Domedonfors:

Gerard

On Mon, Mar 6, 2017 at 7:28 AM, you wrote:


For Rogol and Pine I have an additional challenge; when the WMF is to
support the community, is their time better spend serving quality or is
their time better spend discussing endless procedures that make us stick in
the mud as it stifles initiative?


A fallacious dichotomy, as no doubt you were well aware.  We need to
establish working and workable procedures that allow Community and
Foundation to engage together in planning at the level of long-term
strategy and medium-term technical roadmap so that the WMF are able to
deliver quality products that support the mission effectively.  Do you
think we have those already?  Or do you think we can do without them?

"Rogol"
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Is the Code of Conduct in force?

[Gerard Meijssen]

Hoi,
You seek cultural change but what is it that you want to change? You are
outspoken and as others commented an edge that is more than
confrontational. My appreciation is one where I fail to see the connection
with what we do, it is only about how we do it. That is in my opinion
overrated.

In many ways, I have found that our community is overly self observed. They
care mostly about their patch and when changes happen they are possessive;
they hardly care about how together with a more communal effort we make
more progress. I give you one example; I got in contact with people who
(take) care of the Black Lunch Table. We discussed the issues with the
project and we worked to manage the project largely using Wikidata. So all
the 900+ people including the "red links" where added to Wikidata. After a
discussion at Wikidata we now use "catalog" with "Black Lunch Table" to
indicate the items involved. The benefits: in stead of three Wikitables
that have to be maintained, Listeria does all three based on the same data.
We found that many other Wikipedias have articles on the people identified
by the Black Lunch Table and the same queries should work on those
Wikipedias as well. The consequence is that more time can be spend on
actually caring about the project, the articles and even the data.

My point is that community is NOT about how we are supposed to do things
because if we had to ask the community for this experiment, we would have
no answer. It is because true people from the community, people who make a
difference for the projects themselves were involved, they allowed for the
experiment and are starting to see their benefit and the benefit for us
all. Now THAT is a cultural change and my challenge is old; I want to
discuss quality with Wiki people and I want us to do better. When we do
better, we will be better able to recognise fake facts.

For Rogol and Pine I have an additional challenge; when the WMF is to
support the community, is their time better spend serving quality or is
their time better spend discussing endless procedures that make us stick in
the mud as it stifles initiative?
Thanks,
  GerardM



On 5 March 2017 at 11:21, Rogol Domedonfors  wrote:

> Pine,
>
> On Sat, Mar 4, 2017 at 11:45 PM, you wrote:
>
> > [...]
> >
> > The way that you phrase your questions sometimes comes across to me as
> > having an edge than is more confrontational than I think is necessary,
> and
> > I am finding the tone to be a distraction from what is, I think, our
> mutual
> > goal of trying to align WMF more with the community. Sometimes carrots
> work
> > better than sticks. I have a long list of changes that I would like WMF
> to
> > make, but cultural change is a long term process, and sometimes patience
> > works better than demands.
> >
>
> Unfortunately cultural change is unlikely to happen against a background of
> perpetual unwarranted self-congratulation and complacency.  A clear
> articulation of areas needing improvement and suggestions for ways of
> improving may not always make for comfortable reading, but I make no
> apology for presenting that position.  I would have been happy to have been
> able to be more detailed in my suggestions, but it seems to me that the
> Foundation is, and has been for some time, unable or unwilling to
> acknowledge, let alone respond to or engage with, the attempts by numerous
> community members to initiate a serious engagement.  Perhaps your
> experience in this area has been better, and if so, I would be pleased to
> hear from you what your successes have been and how you have achieved them.
>
> "Rogol"
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Is the Code of Conduct in force?

[Pine W]

Hi Rogol,

Sure, I'd be glad to talk with you about this. I think that a more
interactive discussion might be helpful. Would you be willing to meet me on
IRC? If so, could you email me off-list so that we can set up a time and
channel for a meeting?

Thanks,

Pine


On Sun, Mar 5, 2017 at 2:21 AM, Rogol Domedonfors 
wrote:

> Pine,
>
> On Sat, Mar 4, 2017 at 11:45 PM, you wrote:
>
> > [...]
> >
> > The way that you phrase your questions sometimes comes across to me as
> > having an edge than is more confrontational than I think is necessary,
> and
> > I am finding the tone to be a distraction from what is, I think, our
> mutual
> > goal of trying to align WMF more with the community. Sometimes carrots
> work
> > better than sticks. I have a long list of changes that I would like WMF
> to
> > make, but cultural change is a long term process, and sometimes patience
> > works better than demands.
> >
>
> Unfortunately cultural change is unlikely to happen against a background of
> perpetual unwarranted self-congratulation and complacency.  A clear
> articulation of areas needing improvement and suggestions for ways of
> improving may not always make for comfortable reading, but I make no
> apology for presenting that position.  I would have been happy to have been
> able to be more detailed in my suggestions, but it seems to me that the
> Foundation is, and has been for some time, unable or unwilling to
> acknowledge, let alone respond to or engage with, the attempts by numerous
> community members to initiate a serious engagement.  Perhaps your
> experience in this area has been better, and if so, I would be pleased to
> hear from you what your successes have been and how you have achieved them.
>
> "Rogol"
> ___
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Is the Code of Conduct in force?

[Rogol Domedonfors]

Pine,

On Sat, Mar 4, 2017 at 11:45 PM, you wrote:

> [...]
>
> The way that you phrase your questions sometimes comes across to me as
> having an edge than is more confrontational than I think is necessary, and
> I am finding the tone to be a distraction from what is, I think, our mutual
> goal of trying to align WMF more with the community. Sometimes carrots work
> better than sticks. I have a long list of changes that I would like WMF to
> make, but cultural change is a long term process, and sometimes patience
> works better than demands.
>

Unfortunately cultural change is unlikely to happen against a background of
perpetual unwarranted self-congratulation and complacency.  A clear
articulation of areas needing improvement and suggestions for ways of
improving may not always make for comfortable reading, but I make no
apology for presenting that position.  I would have been happy to have been
able to be more detailed in my suggestions, but it seems to me that the
Foundation is, and has been for some time, unable or unwilling to
acknowledge, let alone respond to or engage with, the attempts by numerous
community members to initiate a serious engagement.  Perhaps your
experience in this area has been better, and if so, I would be pleased to
hear from you what your successes have been and how you have achieved them.

"Rogol"
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Is the Code of Conduct in force?

[Lodewijk]

I get the impression that the majority of the people in this subcommunity
feel that this decision is well on its place with the technical community,
that would be most heavily impacted by it.

So I'd say, lets leave it at that.

Lodewijk

2017-03-04 21:27 GMT+01:00 Rogol Domedonfors :

> Well, one of us is in the wrong place.  I'm posting to the list described
> as "Discussion list for *the Wikimedia community* and the larger network of
> organizations [...] supporting its work." – my emphasis.  It seems that
> "This mailing list can, for example, be used for: [...]
>
> The initial planning phase of potential new Wikimedia projects and
> initiatives
> Organizational issues of the Wikimedia Foundation, chapter organizations,
> others
> Discussing the setup of local Wikimedia chapters
> Developing and evaluating grant-making programs
> Planning elections, polls and votes
> Discussion of projects that don't already have a mailing list
> Finding ways to raise funds
> Other Wikimedia-related issues
>
> My post relates to items 1,2,5 and 8 on that list.
>
> "Rogol"
>
> On Thu, Mar 2, 2017 at 6:45 PM, Joseph Seddon 
> wrote:
>
> > This list is *a* community but it certainly does not constitute The
> > Community™ nor are we the community affected by this code of conduct.
> >
> > I suggest raising this in venues appropriate to the particular community
> in
> > question, in this case the technical community. Before bringing this
> topic
> > here it would have been far more appropriate to raise your concerns on a
> > more aligned mailing list such as wikitech-l. All of whom would be
> affected
> > by the code of conduct and who have been notified regularly about it.
> >
> > I also suggest you keep in mind that the technical community does have a
> > higher percentage of staff members from many organisations in comparison
> to
> > the number of volunteers. Simply being staff members does not preclude
> them
> > from being a part of that community and does not preclude their ability
> to
> > participate in their own self-governance.
> >
> > It would be hypercritical of us if we as the wikimedia-l list were to
> > parachute into the governance of a community relatively few of us are a
> > part of.
> >
> > Seddon
> >
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Mar 2, 2017 at 5:30 PM, David Gerard  wrote:
> >
> > > This assumes the relevant Community is here now on this very list,
> > > which is an extremely questionable assumption. As has been noted ad
> > > nauseam already. At this point this thread appears hard to distinguish
> > > from forum shopping.
> > >
> > > On 2 March 2017 at 17:16, Rogol Domedonfors 
> > wrote:
> > > > I'm not asking Matt.  I'm asking the Community – here, now, on this
> > very
> > > > list.
> > > >
> > > > "Rogol"
> > > >
> > > > On Thu, Mar 2, 2017 at 7:44 AM, Pine W  wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> Rogol,
> > > >>
> > > >> Please don't assume that Matt thinks that the TCoC is now in effect.
> > Try
> > > >> asking him, preferably on the relevant talk page.
> > > >>
> > > >> I'm well aware of the challenges with the TCoC, but let's not make
> it
> > > more
> > > >> difficult than it is already, OK?
> > > >>
> > > >> Pine
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> On Wed, Mar 1, 2017 at 11:31 PM, Rogol Domedonfors <
> > > domedonf...@gmail.com>
> > > >> wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >> > Matt Flaschen has declared the final amendment to the code of
> > conduct
> > > for
> > > >> > Wikimedia technical spaces approved and although he has not said
> so
> > > >> > explicitly, I assume that his current position is that it is now
> in
> > > >> force.
> > > >> > Even asuming that is correct, and previous consensus was against
> > that,
> > > >> andI
> > > >> > there is still signficiant disagreement on this list, it can
> hardly
> > > have
> > > >> > any practical effect until it is published.  But first --
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Does the Community accept that this Code of Conduct is now in
> force?
> > > >> >
> > > >> > "Rogol"
> > > >> > ___
> > > >> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > >> > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > >> > wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > >> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > >> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/
> > mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
> > > ,
> > > >> >  > unsubscribe>
> > > >> ___
> > > >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > >> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > >> wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > >> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > >> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/
> mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
> > ,
> > > >>  

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Is the Code of Conduct in force?

[Pine W]

Hi Rogol,

Yes, to a point. But if we tried to have every discussion on this list that
was categorized as "Organizational issues of the Wikimedia Foundation,
chapter organizations", "Planning elections, polls and votes", and "Other
Wikimedia-related issues", this list would be so flooded with traffic as to
be nearly unusable. So discretion is advised in how many new topics one
brings to this list.

If you ask my opinion of "is the TCoC now in force", the answer would be
no, but I don't know that it's a wise use of time to ask that question on
this list in present circumstances. If WMF decides to try to enforce the
TCoC without an RfC on the whole document, then I think it would be fine to
come back to this list for discussion.

The way that you phrase your questions sometimes comes across to me as
having an edge than is more confrontational than I think is necessary, and
I am finding the tone to be a distraction from what is, I think, our mutual
goal of trying to align WMF more with the community. Sometimes carrots work
better than sticks. I have a long list of changes that I would like WMF to
make, but cultural change is a long term process, and sometimes patience
works better than demands.

Pine


On Sat, Mar 4, 2017 at 12:27 PM, Rogol Domedonfors 
wrote:

> Well, one of us is in the wrong place.  I'm posting to the list described
> as "Discussion list for *the Wikimedia community* and the larger network of
> organizations [...] supporting its work." – my emphasis.  It seems that
> "This mailing list can, for example, be used for: [...]
>
> The initial planning phase of potential new Wikimedia projects and
> initiatives
> Organizational issues of the Wikimedia Foundation, chapter organizations,
> others
> Discussing the setup of local Wikimedia chapters
> Developing and evaluating grant-making programs
> Planning elections, polls and votes
> Discussion of projects that don't already have a mailing list
> Finding ways to raise funds
> Other Wikimedia-related issues
>
> My post relates to items 1,2,5 and 8 on that list.
>
> "Rogol"
>
> On Thu, Mar 2, 2017 at 6:45 PM, Joseph Seddon 
> wrote:
>
> > This list is *a* community but it certainly does not constitute The
> > Community™ nor are we the community affected by this code of conduct.
> >
> > I suggest raising this in venues appropriate to the particular community
> in
> > question, in this case the technical community. Before bringing this
> topic
> > here it would have been far more appropriate to raise your concerns on a
> > more aligned mailing list such as wikitech-l. All of whom would be
> affected
> > by the code of conduct and who have been notified regularly about it.
> >
> > I also suggest you keep in mind that the technical community does have a
> > higher percentage of staff members from many organisations in comparison
> to
> > the number of volunteers. Simply being staff members does not preclude
> them
> > from being a part of that community and does not preclude their ability
> to
> > participate in their own self-governance.
> >
> > It would be hypercritical of us if we as the wikimedia-l list were to
> > parachute into the governance of a community relatively few of us are a
> > part of.
> >
> > Seddon
> >
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Mar 2, 2017 at 5:30 PM, David Gerard  wrote:
> >
> > > This assumes the relevant Community is here now on this very list,
> > > which is an extremely questionable assumption. As has been noted ad
> > > nauseam already. At this point this thread appears hard to distinguish
> > > from forum shopping.
> > >
> > > On 2 March 2017 at 17:16, Rogol Domedonfors 
> > wrote:
> > > > I'm not asking Matt.  I'm asking the Community – here, now, on this
> > very
> > > > list.
> > > >
> > > > "Rogol"
> > > >
> > > > On Thu, Mar 2, 2017 at 7:44 AM, Pine W  wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> Rogol,
> > > >>
> > > >> Please don't assume that Matt thinks that the TCoC is now in effect.
> > Try
> > > >> asking him, preferably on the relevant talk page.
> > > >>
> > > >> I'm well aware of the challenges with the TCoC, but let's not make
> it
> > > more
> > > >> difficult than it is already, OK?
> > > >>
> > > >> Pine
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> On Wed, Mar 1, 2017 at 11:31 PM, Rogol Domedonfors <
> > > domedonf...@gmail.com>
> > > >> wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >> > Matt Flaschen has declared the final amendment to the code of
> > conduct
> > > for
> > > >> > Wikimedia technical spaces approved and although he has not said
> so
> > > >> > explicitly, I assume that his current position is that it is now
> in
> > > >> force.
> > > >> > Even asuming that is correct, and previous consensus was against
> > that,
> > > >> andI
> > > >> > there is still signficiant disagreement on this list, it can
> hardly
> > > have
> > > >> > any practical effect until it is published.  But first --
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Does the Community accept that this Code of 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Is the Code of Conduct in force?

[Rogol Domedonfors]

Well, one of us is in the wrong place.  I'm posting to the list described
as "Discussion list for *the Wikimedia community* and the larger network of
organizations [...] supporting its work." – my emphasis.  It seems that
"This mailing list can, for example, be used for: [...]

The initial planning phase of potential new Wikimedia projects and
initiatives
Organizational issues of the Wikimedia Foundation, chapter organizations,
others
Discussing the setup of local Wikimedia chapters
Developing and evaluating grant-making programs
Planning elections, polls and votes
Discussion of projects that don't already have a mailing list
Finding ways to raise funds
Other Wikimedia-related issues

My post relates to items 1,2,5 and 8 on that list.

"Rogol"

On Thu, Mar 2, 2017 at 6:45 PM, Joseph Seddon  wrote:

> This list is *a* community but it certainly does not constitute The
> Community™ nor are we the community affected by this code of conduct.
>
> I suggest raising this in venues appropriate to the particular community in
> question, in this case the technical community. Before bringing this topic
> here it would have been far more appropriate to raise your concerns on a
> more aligned mailing list such as wikitech-l. All of whom would be affected
> by the code of conduct and who have been notified regularly about it.
>
> I also suggest you keep in mind that the technical community does have a
> higher percentage of staff members from many organisations in comparison to
> the number of volunteers. Simply being staff members does not preclude them
> from being a part of that community and does not preclude their ability to
> participate in their own self-governance.
>
> It would be hypercritical of us if we as the wikimedia-l list were to
> parachute into the governance of a community relatively few of us are a
> part of.
>
> Seddon
>
>
>
> On Thu, Mar 2, 2017 at 5:30 PM, David Gerard  wrote:
>
> > This assumes the relevant Community is here now on this very list,
> > which is an extremely questionable assumption. As has been noted ad
> > nauseam already. At this point this thread appears hard to distinguish
> > from forum shopping.
> >
> > On 2 March 2017 at 17:16, Rogol Domedonfors 
> wrote:
> > > I'm not asking Matt.  I'm asking the Community – here, now, on this
> very
> > > list.
> > >
> > > "Rogol"
> > >
> > > On Thu, Mar 2, 2017 at 7:44 AM, Pine W  wrote:
> > >
> > >> Rogol,
> > >>
> > >> Please don't assume that Matt thinks that the TCoC is now in effect.
> Try
> > >> asking him, preferably on the relevant talk page.
> > >>
> > >> I'm well aware of the challenges with the TCoC, but let's not make it
> > more
> > >> difficult than it is already, OK?
> > >>
> > >> Pine
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> On Wed, Mar 1, 2017 at 11:31 PM, Rogol Domedonfors <
> > domedonf...@gmail.com>
> > >> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> > Matt Flaschen has declared the final amendment to the code of
> conduct
> > for
> > >> > Wikimedia technical spaces approved and although he has not said so
> > >> > explicitly, I assume that his current position is that it is now in
> > >> force.
> > >> > Even asuming that is correct, and previous consensus was against
> that,
> > >> andI
> > >> > there is still signficiant disagreement on this list, it can hardly
> > have
> > >> > any practical effect until it is published.  But first --
> > >> >
> > >> > Does the Community accept that this Code of Conduct is now in force?
> > >> >
> > >> > "Rogol"
> > >> > ___
> > >> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > >> > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > >> > wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > >> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > >> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/
> mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
> > ,
> > >> >  unsubscribe>
> > >> ___
> > >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > >> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > >> wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > >> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > >> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
> ,
> > >> 
> > >>
> > > ___
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > 
> >
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Is the Code of Conduct in force?

[Joseph Seddon]

This list is *a* community but it certainly does not constitute The
Community™ nor are we the community affected by this code of conduct.

I suggest raising this in venues appropriate to the particular community in
question, in this case the technical community. Before bringing this topic
here it would have been far more appropriate to raise your concerns on a
more aligned mailing list such as wikitech-l. All of whom would be affected
by the code of conduct and who have been notified regularly about it.

I also suggest you keep in mind that the technical community does have a
higher percentage of staff members from many organisations in comparison to
the number of volunteers. Simply being staff members does not preclude them
from being a part of that community and does not preclude their ability to
participate in their own self-governance.

It would be hypercritical of us if we as the wikimedia-l list were to
parachute into the governance of a community relatively few of us are a
part of.

Seddon



On Thu, Mar 2, 2017 at 5:30 PM, David Gerard  wrote:

> This assumes the relevant Community is here now on this very list,
> which is an extremely questionable assumption. As has been noted ad
> nauseam already. At this point this thread appears hard to distinguish
> from forum shopping.
>
> On 2 March 2017 at 17:16, Rogol Domedonfors  wrote:
> > I'm not asking Matt.  I'm asking the Community – here, now, on this very
> > list.
> >
> > "Rogol"
> >
> > On Thu, Mar 2, 2017 at 7:44 AM, Pine W  wrote:
> >
> >> Rogol,
> >>
> >> Please don't assume that Matt thinks that the TCoC is now in effect. Try
> >> asking him, preferably on the relevant talk page.
> >>
> >> I'm well aware of the challenges with the TCoC, but let's not make it
> more
> >> difficult than it is already, OK?
> >>
> >> Pine
> >>
> >>
> >> On Wed, Mar 1, 2017 at 11:31 PM, Rogol Domedonfors <
> domedonf...@gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> > Matt Flaschen has declared the final amendment to the code of conduct
> for
> >> > Wikimedia technical spaces approved and although he has not said so
> >> > explicitly, I assume that his current position is that it is now in
> >> force.
> >> > Even asuming that is correct, and previous consensus was against that,
> >> andI
> >> > there is still signficiant disagreement on this list, it can hardly
> have
> >> > any practical effect until it is published.  But first --
> >> >
> >> > Does the Community accept that this Code of Conduct is now in force?
> >> >
> >> > "Rogol"
> >> > ___
> >> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> >> > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> >> > wiki/Wikimedia-l
> >> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> >> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
> ,
> >> > 
> >> ___
> >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> >> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> >> wiki/Wikimedia-l
> >> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> >> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> >> 
> >>
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 
>
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 
>



-- 
Seddon

*Advancement Associate (Community Engagement)*
*Wikimedia Foundation*
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Is the Code of Conduct in force?

[Rogol Domedonfors]

David

Forum shopping is usually considered to be taking an issue from one forum
to another hoping to get the answer you want.  I do not believe I have
raised this question in any other forum.  I hope that helps you make the
distinction your are having difficulty with.  Please explain what you
believe to be the relevant community and where you would expect to
publicise these issues in order to engage with them.

If the Code is to be imposed by WMF fiat, then this forum seems an
approrpiate place for the Foundation to publish their instructions.

"Rogol"

On Thu, Mar 2, 2017 at 5:30 PM, David Gerard  wrote:

> This assumes the relevant Community is here now on this very list,
> which is an extremely questionable assumption. As has been noted ad
> nauseam already. At this point this thread appears hard to distinguish
> from forum shopping.
>
> On 2 March 2017 at 17:16, Rogol Domedonfors  wrote:
> > I'm not asking Matt.  I'm asking the Community – here, now, on this very
> > list.
> >
> > "Rogol"
> >
> > On Thu, Mar 2, 2017 at 7:44 AM, Pine W  wrote:
> >
> >> Rogol,
> >>
> >> Please don't assume that Matt thinks that the TCoC is now in effect. Try
> >> asking him, preferably on the relevant talk page.
> >>
> >> I'm well aware of the challenges with the TCoC, but let's not make it
> more
> >> difficult than it is already, OK?
> >>
> >> Pine
> >>
> >>
> >> On Wed, Mar 1, 2017 at 11:31 PM, Rogol Domedonfors <
> domedonf...@gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> > Matt Flaschen has declared the final amendment to the code of conduct
> for
> >> > Wikimedia technical spaces approved and although he has not said so
> >> > explicitly, I assume that his current position is that it is now in
> >> force.
> >> > Even asuming that is correct, and previous consensus was against that,
> >> andI
> >> > there is still signficiant disagreement on this list, it can hardly
> have
> >> > any practical effect until it is published.  But first --
> >> >
> >> > Does the Community accept that this Code of Conduct is now in force?
> >> >
> >> > "Rogol"
> >> > ___
> >> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> >> > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> >> > wiki/Wikimedia-l
> >> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> >> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
> ,
> >> > 
> >> ___
> >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> >> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> >> wiki/Wikimedia-l
> >> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> >> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> >> 
> >>
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 
>
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Is the Code of Conduct in force?

[David Gerard]

This assumes the relevant Community is here now on this very list,
which is an extremely questionable assumption. As has been noted ad
nauseam already. At this point this thread appears hard to distinguish
from forum shopping.

On 2 March 2017 at 17:16, Rogol Domedonfors  wrote:
> I'm not asking Matt.  I'm asking the Community – here, now, on this very
> list.
>
> "Rogol"
>
> On Thu, Mar 2, 2017 at 7:44 AM, Pine W  wrote:
>
>> Rogol,
>>
>> Please don't assume that Matt thinks that the TCoC is now in effect. Try
>> asking him, preferably on the relevant talk page.
>>
>> I'm well aware of the challenges with the TCoC, but let's not make it more
>> difficult than it is already, OK?
>>
>> Pine
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Mar 1, 2017 at 11:31 PM, Rogol Domedonfors 
>> wrote:
>>
>> > Matt Flaschen has declared the final amendment to the code of conduct for
>> > Wikimedia technical spaces approved and although he has not said so
>> > explicitly, I assume that his current position is that it is now in
>> force.
>> > Even asuming that is correct, and previous consensus was against that,
>> andI
>> > there is still signficiant disagreement on this list, it can hardly have
>> > any practical effect until it is published.  But first --
>> >
>> > Does the Community accept that this Code of Conduct is now in force?
>> >
>> > "Rogol"
>> > ___
>> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
>> > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
>> > wiki/Wikimedia-l
>> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>> > 
>> ___
>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
>> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
>> wiki/Wikimedia-l
>> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>> 
>>
> ___
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> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 
> 

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Is the Code of Conduct in force?

[Rogol Domedonfors]

I'm not asking Matt.  I'm asking the Community – here, now, on this very
list.

"Rogol"

On Thu, Mar 2, 2017 at 7:44 AM, Pine W  wrote:

> Rogol,
>
> Please don't assume that Matt thinks that the TCoC is now in effect. Try
> asking him, preferably on the relevant talk page.
>
> I'm well aware of the challenges with the TCoC, but let's not make it more
> difficult than it is already, OK?
>
> Pine
>
>
> On Wed, Mar 1, 2017 at 11:31 PM, Rogol Domedonfors 
> wrote:
>
> > Matt Flaschen has declared the final amendment to the code of conduct for
> > Wikimedia technical spaces approved and although he has not said so
> > explicitly, I assume that his current position is that it is now in
> force.
> > Even asuming that is correct, and previous consensus was against that,
> andI
> > there is still signficiant disagreement on this list, it can hardly have
> > any practical effect until it is published.  But first --
> >
> > Does the Community accept that this Code of Conduct is now in force?
> >
> > "Rogol"
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > 
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Is the Code of Conduct in force?

[Pine W]

Rogol,

Please don't assume that Matt thinks that the TCoC is now in effect. Try
asking him, preferably on the relevant talk page.

I'm well aware of the challenges with the TCoC, but let's not make it more
difficult than it is already, OK?

Pine


On Wed, Mar 1, 2017 at 11:31 PM, Rogol Domedonfors 
wrote:

> Matt Flaschen has declared the final amendment to the code of conduct for
> Wikimedia technical spaces approved and although he has not said so
> explicitly, I assume that his current position is that it is now in force.
> Even asuming that is correct, and previous consensus was against that, andI
> there is still signficiant disagreement on this list, it can hardly have
> any practical effect until it is published.  But first --
>
> Does the Community accept that this Code of Conduct is now in force?
>
> "Rogol"
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Is the Code of Conduct in force?

[Peter Southwood]

Try asking the community. This mailing list is a small subset of the community. 
Or is that a rhetorical question?
Cheers,
Peter

-Original Message-
From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of 
Rogol Domedonfors
Sent: Thursday, 02 March 2017 9:32 AM
To: Wikimedia Mailing List
Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Is the Code of Conduct in force?

Matt Flaschen has declared the final amendment to the code of conduct for 
Wikimedia technical spaces approved and although he has not said so explicitly, 
I assume that his current position is that it is now in force.
Even asuming that is correct, and previous consensus was against that, andI 
there is still signficiant disagreement on this list, it can hardly have any 
practical effect until it is published.  But first --

Does the Community accept that this Code of Conduct is now in force?

"Rogol"
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[Wikimedia-l] Is the Code of Conduct in force?

[Rogol Domedonfors]

Matt Flaschen has declared the final amendment to the code of conduct for
Wikimedia technical spaces approved and although he has not said so
explicitly, I assume that his current position is that it is now in force.
Even asuming that is correct, and previous consensus was against that, andI
there is still signficiant disagreement on this list, it can hardly have
any practical effect until it is published.  But first --

Does the Community accept that this Code of Conduct is now in force?

"Rogol"
___
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https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
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New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,