Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] India Program: Community Monthly Report: Feb 2012

2012-03-07 Thread Pradeep Mohandas 
hi,


> I don't think it's a good idea to separate the chapter and the community.
>  The chapter is a membership-based organization and by definition an
> umbrella organization which represents the community.  There is no reason
> for differentiation as long as it is volunteer work done by a chapter
> member.
>
>
I think that although the chapter and community are volunteer based, the
chapter has more legal sanctity and is answerable as an organisation
against as a person being held responsible. Hence, it is important that
even the chapter and the community be seperated. As an action taken by a
member stating that he's taking on behalf of a  chapter, makes the Chapter
answerable.

I think it is necessary to seperate the chapter and community as well.

In retrospect, I also understand the need for seperating the Foundation
activities as well. I think it is best to either go for total seperation of
community, chapter and Office or have general statements. This also makes
it necessary for people who hold multiple positions within Chapter and
Office to define their actions even more concretely since we're now
speaking in terms of transparency and accountability.

warm regards,
Pradeep
-- 
Pradeep Mohandas
How Pradeep uses email - http://goo.gl/6v1I9
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] India Program: Community Monthly Report: Feb 2012

2012-03-07 Thread Anirudh Bhati 
On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 1:38 PM, Pradeep Mohandas  wrote:

> hi,
>
>
>> I don't think it's a good idea to separate the chapter and the community.
>>  The chapter is a membership-based organization and by definition an
>> umbrella organization which represents the community.  There is no reason
>> for differentiation as long as it is volunteer work done by a chapter
>> member.
>>
>>
> I think that although the chapter and community are volunteer based, the
> chapter has more legal sanctity and is answerable as an organisation
> against as a person being held responsible. Hence, it is important that
> even the chapter and the community be seperated. As an action taken by a
> member stating that he's taking on behalf of a  chapter, makes the Chapter
> answerable.
>
> I think it is necessary to seperate the chapter and community as well.
>

Sure, I agree with the sentiment.  The chapter is a legal entity and hence
accountable to its members and the state and national authorities.
 However, what I was trying to convey is that if a member of a chapter (who
also happens to be a volunteer) executes a project, in that scenario, I
don't see a reason to differentiate whether the work was done by a
"community member" or a chapter, unless the volunteer member wishes to do
so.


>
> In retrospect, I also understand the need for seperating the Foundation
> activities as well. I think it is best to either go for total seperation of
> community, chapter and Office or have general statements. This also makes
> it necessary for people who hold multiple positions within Chapter and
> Office to define their actions even more concretely since we're now
> speaking in terms of transparency and accountability.
>

We will discuss overlapping roles and notify the community about our
decision.  Thanks for the comments!


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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] India Program: Community Monthly Report: Feb 2012

2012-03-07 Thread Achal Prabhala 



On Wednesday 07 March 2012 01:38 PM, Pradeep Mohandas wrote:


I think that although the chapter and community are volunteer based, 
the chapter has more legal sanctity and is answerable as an 
organisation against as a person being held responsible. Hence, it is 
important that even the chapter and the community be seperated. As an 
action taken by a member stating that he's taking on behalf of a 
 chapter, makes the Chapter answerable.


I think it is necessary to seperate the chapter and community as well.

In retrospect, I also understand the need for seperating the 
Foundation activities as well. I think it is best to either go for 
total seperation of community, chapter and Office or have general 
statements. This also makes it necessary for people who hold multiple 
positions within Chapter and Office to define their actions even more 
concretely since we're now speaking in terms of transparency and 
accountability.



This makes a lot of sense. It's useful to understand exactly what people 
acting on behalf of the Foundation, the chapter, or themselves (the 
community) are doing; it's also very useful to understand exactly how 
they are working with others. To have a record of this (admittedly 
complex) cooperation will be very valuable in understanding how things 
actually work.






warm regards,
Pradeep
--
Pradeep Mohandas
How Pradeep uses email - http://goo.gl/6v1I9




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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Implementation of QR Pedia in India

2012-03-07 Thread Naveen Francis 
Good idea Srikanth.

I had similar thoughts after Arun's qrpedia talk in Bangalore meetup and
seeing the following photo (
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ea/Wikip%C3%A9dia_dans_Rennes_-_Jean_Janvier_-_vue_proche.jpg
)

Om,Radhakrishna,Anoopan has offered help in Kannada,Telugu and Malayalam.

We need to talk to BMRCL officials and need try similar things across India.


On Tue, Mar 6, 2012 at 11:46 AM, Srikanth Ramakrishnan <
rsrikant...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hiya all.
> This is a quick summary of one of my silliest ideas.
> Thanks to my Wiki-friend PhantomSteve, and real life buddy @aagan86 [from
> Twitter] who got me interested in QR codes.
> I kept this a secret, telling it partly to Pradeep Mohandas, and Nitika
> Tandon. [SBC-YPR knew it the whole time].
> I had contacted Roger Bamkin of the UK Chapter, and he connected me with
> Terence Eden. As you all know, the two of them created QR Pedia together.
>
> Sent on 28-12-11 to Roger Bamkin.
> *Hi,
> I'm Srikanth, from India, known on Wiki and Twitter as Rsrikanth05.
> I've been on the English Wikipedia from June '05 and I have a little over
> 10,000 edits. I've been editing since I was 13.
>
> I got really interested in QR Codes a while back, and I tried using one to
> promote a WikiMeetup in Coimbatore.
>
> I stumbled across QR Pedia on Google, and thought I'd get in touch with
> you.
> I thought of this crazy idea to promote learning History and Geography via
> Wikipedia in India, using QR Codes. Seeing that a VAST majority of kids
> today roam around with BlackBerrys, iPhones, et al, I thought this would be
> a good opportunity.
>
> I'm a mega transport enthusiast, so I thought I'd write to the Bangalore
> Metro Rail Corporation Limited, who operate the Bangalore Metro. I chose
> BMRCL, because:* *
> 1> Out of the three Metro systems in the country, it is the most
> approachable.
> 2> Out of the various agencies in Bangalore and it's parent state of
> Karnataka, again it is the most approachable and tech savvy.
>
> My plan is to convince the BMRCL about providing QR codes to the various
> localities and landmarks along the route of the first track.
> Ideas in my brain are:
> 1> Each station has multiple exits, each of those can be linked to an
> article. Eg: At MG Road station, there is an exit towards Commercial
> Street, one towards Brigade Road, and one towards the Parade Ground. The
> Brigade Road exit can have a QR code pointing to Brigade Road, while the
> Comm. St, one can have one pointing to it's article.
> 2> Where the board says the station name, place a Code for the article of
> that area.
> 3> Presently, two stations are named after people: Mahatama Gandhi and
> Swami Vivekananda. More are in the pipeline, once the construction is
> completed. We could link the Code to the article on that person.
>
> I agree that articles should be in all possible languages and should be of
> high quality with good media. I am working on this, hoping the community
> will join me.* *
> *
> *This came in response:*
>
> *I don't think its silly at all. What can we do to help you? Most of our
> best successes have been silly ideas (who would think you could allow
> everyone to edit a good source of information?)
>
> We have a following of people who like writing articles and the Wikimedia
> UK board are keen on this idea. (We were also in the Wikimedia Foundation
> annual report)
>
> We can show you how we ran the Derby project * *
> http://midea.nmc.org/2011/12/one-small-museum-making-a-big-impact-an-interview-with-roger-bamkin/
>
> One of our most repected editors in the UK is 13 now!* *
>
> Do you have some "sources" that we could write these articles from? You
> may be able to convince the bus company by doing one stop?
>
> Very interested in helping you, the bus passemgers etc and of course
> Wikipedia
>
> regards* *
> Roger*
>
> *Further*:
> *Srikanth
>
> Obviously Ive never tried to sell this idea to a bus company, but I have
> given talks in Bristol about how QRpedia can move a museum or a city up the
> google rankings.
>
> I have also copied in Terence Eden as he has also spoken about this idea
> (we both made QRpedia together). He'll be intrigued by the India link and
> he may be able to suggest other business cases.
>
> If you look on my wikipedia page and try the links ...* *
>
> regards
> Victuallers - Roger*
>
> *From Terence:*
> *Sounds really good. I currently work for [placeholder]- who are based in
> Bangalore.  Hopefully I'll be able to come out and visit the
> installation in 2012 :-)
>
> You could also link to the transport company's Wikipedia page - they* *
> may like to see that as an example.*
>
>
> Hopefully, something can happen.
>
> --
> Regards,
> Srikanth Ramakrishnan,
>
> P.S: I'm sending my Chapter membership form.
>
> Always welcome to join Chapter !!!

>
>
>
>
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] India Program: Community Monthly Report: Feb 2012

2012-03-07 Thread Subhashish Panigrahi 
On 7 March 2012 13:11, Anirudh Bhati  wrote:

> On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 12:42 PM, Hisham  wrote:
>
>>
>> Nothing is conducted solely by India Program - and hence I said
>> "supported."  Everything is conducted by the community - sometimes under
>> the aegis of the Chapter and sometimes independently.  The support that we
>> have provided varies - from getting the actual event fixed up to providing
>> presentation material to interested community members to participating in
>> these events.
>>
>
> Can this be clearly specified in the report?  That is more helpful than
> simply "supported".  For instance, when you say "Supported the community
> to get a venue in Guwahati University", it would help us understand more if
> you could tell us how.
>
>  On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 12:45 PM, CherianTinu Abraham <
> tinucher...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Pranav,
>> In India, it is extremely difficult to hairline separate who has done
>> which event. - Chapter, Community and WMF India Programs.
>>
>
> I agree it's not possible to do that, but it is entirely possible to list
> out the work done in specific.  This enhances our accountability and
> transparency towards the community.
>
>
>> Let us take the case of the Trichy event, the request came to a community
>> member Rsrikanth to the chapter. Nitika was actively involved along with me
>> and Naveen. The chapter signed the MoU and supplied some goodies. Nitika
>> was actively involved in coaching Sohan, a chapter member and Rsrikanth.
>> One must not also forget that both Hisham & Nitika are also chapter
>> members.
>
>
> Fact: Nitika is a paid employee of the WMF India Programs and is not a
> chapter/community volunteer.
>
>
>>
>> Another event in Chennai (Jaya eng college) , where Subha led, his travel
>> expenses was reimbursed by the Chapter, Subha is a Chapter SIG Chair .. The
>> event is supported by Hisham & Nitika too. Subha is also an India Programs
>> executive.
>>
>
> Fact:  Subhashish, former volunteer, and now paid consultant with India
> Programs.
>
I am still a volunteer when it comes to anything which involves my
participation as a community member, involvement with the WMF doesn't stop
being a volunteer :)

>
>
>>
>> I actively organize Bangalore Meetups and support several others ..
>> Should I be worrying whether I am doing as a chapter member, board member
>> or a community member?
>>
>
> By a matter of principle, chapter and community volunteers are just...
> volunteers.  Paid consultants are hired to executive specific programs, and
> hence the results of their work and reports should be presented with
> clarity.  Simply "supporting" something does not clarify the extent of
> their involvement.
>
>
>> As with Assam meetup recently, coordinated by Shiju, some of the expenses
>> were met from a personal grant from the Foundation to me & Shiju.
>>
>> There was a recent Malayalam Wiki Academy in Bangalore organised by
>> Malayalam Community. Some of them are also Chapter members. People like me
>> and Naveen actively helped the event ..Are we doing as chapter board member
>> or community member? We don't really know.. But we are just genuinely
>> helping the movement, with worrying about what capacity we are doing it.
>>
>
> I don't think it's a good idea to separate the chapter and the community.
>  The chapter is a membership-based organization and by definition an
> umbrella organization which represents the community.  There is no reason
> for differentiation as long as it is volunteer work done by a chapter
> member.
>
>
>>
>> The various academies that we do, some of the requests comes directly to
>> the chapter, community or India programs, but each supporting each other in
>> different capacities.
>>
>> Now Noopur is a GLAM Champion, Chapter member and Delhi SIG Chair and
>> also part of Chapter Communications Team. She now also heads the
>> Communication & PR for the India Programs.
>>
>> As I explained, it is difficult to separate the contributions of
>> different entities or individuals for the Wikimedia  movement in India.
>>
>> IMHO, we should be only concerned about the outcomes of the event and not
>> who gets the credit.
>>
>
> Even though the possibility of interfacing each other is high for
> different entities and groups of volunteers working in India, there is a
> need for differentiation and it is a question which cannot be avoided.  The
> volunteers who work on their pet-projects while not being associated with
> any of the entities are not expected to be as accountable as (i) the
> chapter which receives or may receive grants from the Wikimedia Foundation
> and donations from individuals and organizations in the country AND (ii)
> the WMF India Programs which is run by multiple paid consultants.
>
> So I don't see why we shouldn't care about differentiation, or why it may
> be an undesirable thing to want to differentiate.  Ultimately we all want
> results, yes, but we also need to understand causality because there are
> significa

Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] India Program: Community Monthly Report: Feb 2012

2012-03-07 Thread Pradeep Mohandas 
hi,

Also think that putting this up on the talk page of the report would be
more helpful. Else, not many people will remember that this discussion even
took place. Discussions on this mailing list have a tendency to get buried.

warm regards,
Pradeep

On 7 March 2012 14:35, Subhashish Panigrahi  wrote:

>
>
> On 7 March 2012 13:11, Anirudh Bhati  wrote:
>
>> On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 12:42 PM, Hisham  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Nothing is conducted solely by India Program - and hence I said
>>> "supported."  Everything is conducted by the community - sometimes under
>>> the aegis of the Chapter and sometimes independently.  The support that we
>>> have provided varies - from getting the actual event fixed up to providing
>>> presentation material to interested community members to participating in
>>> these events.
>>>
>>
>> Can this be clearly specified in the report?  That is more helpful than
>> simply "supported".  For instance, when you say "Supported the community
>> to get a venue in Guwahati University", it would help us understand more if
>> you could tell us how.
>>
>>  On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 12:45 PM, CherianTinu Abraham <
>> tinucher...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Pranav,
>>> In India, it is extremely difficult to hairline separate who has done
>>> which event. - Chapter, Community and WMF India Programs.
>>>
>>
>> I agree it's not possible to do that, but it is entirely possible to list
>> out the work done in specific.  This enhances our accountability and
>> transparency towards the community.
>>
>>
>>> Let us take the case of the Trichy event, the request came to a
>>> community member Rsrikanth to the chapter. Nitika was actively involved
>>> along with me and Naveen. The chapter signed the MoU and supplied some
>>> goodies. Nitika was actively involved in coaching Sohan, a chapter member
>>> and Rsrikanth.  One must not also forget that both Hisham & Nitika are also
>>> chapter members.
>>
>>
>> Fact: Nitika is a paid employee of the WMF India Programs and is not a
>> chapter/community volunteer.
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Another event in Chennai (Jaya eng college) , where Subha led, his
>>> travel expenses was reimbursed by the Chapter, Subha is a Chapter SIG Chair
>>> .. The event is supported by Hisham & Nitika too. Subha is also an India
>>> Programs executive.
>>>
>>
>> Fact:  Subhashish, former volunteer, and now paid consultant with India
>> Programs.
>>
> I am still a volunteer when it comes to anything which involves my
> participation as a community member, involvement with the WMF doesn't stop
> being a volunteer :)
>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> I actively organize Bangalore Meetups and support several others ..
>>> Should I be worrying whether I am doing as a chapter member, board member
>>> or a community member?
>>>
>>
>> By a matter of principle, chapter and community volunteers are just...
>> volunteers.  Paid consultants are hired to executive specific programs, and
>> hence the results of their work and reports should be presented with
>> clarity.  Simply "supporting" something does not clarify the extent of
>> their involvement.
>>
>>
>>> As with Assam meetup recently, coordinated by Shiju, some of the
>>> expenses were met from a personal grant from the Foundation to me & Shiju.
>>>
>>> There was a recent Malayalam Wiki Academy in Bangalore organised by
>>> Malayalam Community. Some of them are also Chapter members. People like me
>>> and Naveen actively helped the event ..Are we doing as chapter board member
>>> or community member? We don't really know.. But we are just genuinely
>>> helping the movement, with worrying about what capacity we are doing it.
>>>
>>
>> I don't think it's a good idea to separate the chapter and the community.
>>  The chapter is a membership-based organization and by definition an
>> umbrella organization which represents the community.  There is no reason
>> for differentiation as long as it is volunteer work done by a chapter
>> member.
>>
>>
>>>
>>> The various academies that we do, some of the requests comes directly to
>>> the chapter, community or India programs, but each supporting each other in
>>> different capacities.
>>>
>>> Now Noopur is a GLAM Champion, Chapter member and Delhi SIG Chair and
>>> also part of Chapter Communications Team. She now also heads the
>>> Communication & PR for the India Programs.
>>>
>>> As I explained, it is difficult to separate the contributions of
>>> different entities or individuals for the Wikimedia  movement in India.
>>>
>>> IMHO, we should be only concerned about the outcomes of the event and
>>> not who gets the credit.
>>>
>>
>> Even though the possibility of interfacing each other is high for
>> different entities and groups of volunteers working in India, there is a
>> need for differentiation and it is a question which cannot be avoided.  The
>> volunteers who work on their pet-projects while not being associated with
>> any of the entities are not expected to be as accountable as (i) the
>> chapter which receives or may re

Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] [Press]: Medianama : "Wikimedia India Rolls Out Realtime Search; Supports Indic Editions"

2012-03-07 Thread Naveen Francis 
On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 11:54 AM, Shiju Alex  wrote:

>  *We hope that Wikimedia works on delivering better transliteration
>> support or improving the results for Indic languages. *
>
>
> Typing scheme for Transliteration is an issue (for readers) since there is
> no standard transliteration scheme for any language. For editors it is not
> an issue since they use that in wiki. Providing *help link* to typing
> schemes (transliteration/Inscript or other schemes) once a scheme is
> selected can be one solution. But the issue here is live.wikimedia is meant
> for readers. So they may not really like to go and understand the typing
> scheme. So it is a tricky situation.
>

Hi Shiju,

Will try solve the issue.
http://wiki.wikimedia.in/Chapter_website_team#Live_Search_Tasks

If  more issues are there, please feel free to add.

 Thanks,
naveenpf


> In addition to the existing typing schemes we can think about providing
> more typing schemes to readers (including the google transliteration
> option, but not sure that is viable since it is not open source ).
>

> *However, we got accurate results with the Hindi Inscript input option.*
>
>
> since Inscript uses same layout for all indic scripts if Inscript solution
> works for Hindi then it work for all other indic languages including
> Kannada.
>
>
>
> *
> *
> On Tue, Mar 6, 2012 at 1:47 PM, Tinu Cherian wrote:
>
>> *Medianama : "Wikimedia India Rolls Out Realtime Search; Supports Indic
>> Editions"
>> *
>>
>> http://www.medianama.com/2012/03/223-wikimedia-india-rolls-out-realtime-search-supports-indic-editions/
>>
>>
>> *It looks like Wikimedia India has implemented a project by engineering
>> student Shrey Gokani to roll out an instant search engine of its own at
>> live.wikimedia.in. The site is under a creative commons license, with
>> the code dual licensed under GPL and Creative Commons. The Wikimedia
>> Instant site does appear to have additional functionality over Gokani’s
>> version, with the ability to choose an Indic Input keyboard, since the
>> service supports Indic language editions of Wikimedia services.
>>
>> The search engine works quite similar to Wikilive, another student
>> project about which, we had written in November 2011. And similar to what
>> we had wished, Wikimedia Live also covers Wikipedia, Wikitionary,
>> Wikibooks, Wikiquotes, Wikiversity, Wikinews and Wikisource, and their
>> Indic editions, in realtime. The site also offers other relevant Wikipedia
>> search results on the top, followed by a preview of the most relevant
>> Wikipedia article to the search query.
>>
>>
>> Indic Language Support: The site allows users to type in queries in 21
>> Indic languages including Kannada, Hindi, Telugu, Marathi, Sanskrit, Bangla
>> and others. How it works is that the search engine allows the user to
>> choose the language of his preference, following which he has to choose an
>> input script which is apt for his language. For instance, if one chooses
>> Kannada as his preferred language, he has to choose between the Kannada
>> transliteration option or choose the Kannada Inscript option, however if
>> you choose Hindi as your preferred language, you will have to select the
>> sole Hindi Inscript option.
>>
>> Irrelevant Results? We weren’t too happy with results generated through
>> Indic language transliteration input, since it delivered wrong results in
>> most cases when we gave it a spin (we tried it on OS X Lion on Google
>> Chrome). We hope that Wikimedia works on delivering better transliteration
>> support or improving the results for Indic languages. However, we got
>> accurate results with the Hindi Inscript input option.
>>
>> Similar Portals: Deepanshu Mehndiratta, a second year engineering student
>> at BITS-Pilani KK Birla Goa Campus, had created an instant Wikipedia search
>> called ‘Wikilive‘ which allowed users to type in a search query and get
>> relevant Wikipedia article and topics instantly. WikiInstant and The
>> Instant Wiki are other portals which allow users to search Wikipedia in
>> realtime. *
>>
>>
>>
>> Regards
>> Tinu Cherian
>> pr...@wikimedia.in
>> http://wiki.wikimedia.in/In_the_news
>>
>> Important Note : Non-commercial reproduction for informative purposes
>> only. The publisher ( Medianama) of the above news article owns the
>> copyrights of the article / content. All copyrights are duly acknowledged.
>>
>>
>> ___
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>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
>>
>>
>
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] India Program: Community Monthly Report: Feb 2012

2012-03-07 Thread Shiju Alex 
I am replying to this mail as a *Malayalam wikimedia community member*.


Fact:  Subhashish, *former volunteer*, and now paid consultant with India
> Programs.
>

What do you mean by this? I Shiju Alex is a Indic language wikipedian now
close to 6 years. According to Mr. Anirudh (an EC member of India chapter)
I am a former volunteer. is this is the official position of wikimedia
India chapter? As a community member I require an explanation for this.


Shiju Alex

(An Indic language wikipedian)







On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 1:11 PM, Anirudh Bhati  wrote:

> On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 12:42 PM, Hisham  wrote:
>
>>
>> Nothing is conducted solely by India Program - and hence I said
>> "supported."  Everything is conducted by the community - sometimes under
>> the aegis of the Chapter and sometimes independently.  The support that we
>> have provided varies - from getting the actual event fixed up to providing
>> presentation material to interested community members to participating in
>> these events.
>>
>
> Can this be clearly specified in the report?  That is more helpful than
> simply "supported".  For instance, when you say "Supported the community
> to get a venue in Guwahati University", it would help us understand more if
> you could tell us how.
>
>  On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 12:45 PM, CherianTinu Abraham <
> tinucher...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Pranav,
>> In India, it is extremely difficult to hairline separate who has done
>> which event. - Chapter, Community and WMF India Programs.
>>
>
> I agree it's not possible to do that, but it is entirely possible to list
> out the work done in specific.  This enhances our accountability and
> transparency towards the community.
>
>
>> Let us take the case of the Trichy event, the request came to a community
>> member Rsrikanth to the chapter. Nitika was actively involved along with me
>> and Naveen. The chapter signed the MoU and supplied some goodies. Nitika
>> was actively involved in coaching Sohan, a chapter member and Rsrikanth.
>> One must not also forget that both Hisham & Nitika are also chapter
>> members.
>
>
> Fact: Nitika is a paid employee of the WMF India Programs and is not a
> chapter/community volunteer.
>
>
>>
>> Another event in Chennai (Jaya eng college) , where Subha led, his travel
>> expenses was reimbursed by the Chapter, Subha is a Chapter SIG Chair .. The
>> event is supported by Hisham & Nitika too. Subha is also an India Programs
>> executive.
>>
>
> Fact:  Subhashish, former volunteer, and now paid consultant with India
> Programs.
>
>
>>
>> I actively organize Bangalore Meetups and support several others ..
>> Should I be worrying whether I am doing as a chapter member, board member
>> or a community member?
>>
>
> By a matter of principle, chapter and community volunteers are just...
> volunteers.  Paid consultants are hired to executive specific programs, and
> hence the results of their work and reports should be presented with
> clarity.  Simply "supporting" something does not clarify the extent of
> their involvement.
>
>
>> As with Assam meetup recently, coordinated by Shiju, some of the expenses
>> were met from a personal grant from the Foundation to me & Shiju.
>>
>> There was a recent Malayalam Wiki Academy in Bangalore organised by
>> Malayalam Community. Some of them are also Chapter members. People like me
>> and Naveen actively helped the event ..Are we doing as chapter board member
>> or community member? We don't really know.. But we are just genuinely
>> helping the movement, with worrying about what capacity we are doing it.
>>
>
> I don't think it's a good idea to separate the chapter and the community.
>  The chapter is a membership-based organization and by definition an
> umbrella organization which represents the community.  There is no reason
> for differentiation as long as it is volunteer work done by a chapter
> member.
>
>
>>
>> The various academies that we do, some of the requests comes directly to
>> the chapter, community or India programs, but each supporting each other in
>> different capacities.
>>
>> Now Noopur is a GLAM Champion, Chapter member and Delhi SIG Chair and
>> also part of Chapter Communications Team. She now also heads the
>> Communication & PR for the India Programs.
>>
>> As I explained, it is difficult to separate the contributions of
>> different entities or individuals for the Wikimedia  movement in India.
>>
>> IMHO, we should be only concerned about the outcomes of the event and not
>> who gets the credit.
>>
>
> Even though the possibility of interfacing each other is high for
> different entities and groups of volunteers working in India, there is a
> need for differentiation and it is a question which cannot be avoided.  The
> volunteers who work on their pet-projects while not being associated with
> any of the entities are not expected to be as accountable as (i) the
> chapter which receives or may receive grants from the Wikimedia Foundation
> and donations from individuals

Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] India Program: Community Monthly Report: Feb 2012

2012-03-07 Thread Anirudh Bhati 
On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 2:47 PM, Shiju Alex wrote:

> I am replying to this mail as a *Malayalam wikimedia community member*.
>
>
> Fact:  Subhashish, *former volunteer*, and now paid consultant with India
>> Programs.
>>
>
> What do you mean by this? I Shiju Alex is a Indic language wikipedian now
> close to 6 years. According to Mr. Anirudh (an EC member of India chapter)
> I am a former volunteer. is this is the official position of wikimedia
> India chapter? As a community member I require an explanation for this.
>
>
Shiju, you and Subhashish have been volunteers but now you are paid
contractors hired by the Foundation.  Any work you do within the purview of
your contractual relationship with the Foundation will be work as a paid
contractor and cannot be deemed to be the same as a volunteer. You can
continue being volunteers once your contractual assignment is complete.  Is
that so difficult to understand?

The difference is this: I am an unpaid volunteer who cannot expend the same
amount of time and energy towards our projects as you are currently able to.


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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Implementation of QR Pedia in India

2012-03-07 Thread Srikanth Ramakrishnan 
Thank you Naveen, I have already sent across first bit of correspondence to
them.

On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 1:04 AM, Naveen Francis wrote:

> Good idea Srikanth.
>
> I had similar thoughts after Arun's qrpedia talk in Bangalore meetup and
> seeing the following photo (
> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ea/Wikip%C3%A9dia_dans_Rennes_-_Jean_Janvier_-_vue_proche.jpg
> )
>
> Om,Radhakrishna,Anoopan has offered help in Kannada,Telugu and Malayalam.
>
> We need to talk to BMRCL officials and need try similar things across
> India.
>
>
> On Tue, Mar 6, 2012 at 11:46 AM, Srikanth Ramakrishnan <
> rsrikant...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hiya all.
>> This is a quick summary of one of my silliest ideas.
>> Thanks to my Wiki-friend PhantomSteve, and real life buddy @aagan86 [from
>> Twitter] who got me interested in QR codes.
>> I kept this a secret, telling it partly to Pradeep Mohandas, and Nitika
>> Tandon. [SBC-YPR knew it the whole time].
>> I had contacted Roger Bamkin of the UK Chapter, and he connected me with
>> Terence Eden. As you all know, the two of them created QR Pedia together.
>>
>> Sent on 28-12-11 to Roger Bamkin.
>> *Hi,
>> I'm Srikanth, from India, known on Wiki and Twitter as Rsrikanth05.
>> I've been on the English Wikipedia from June '05 and I have a little over
>> 10,000 edits. I've been editing since I was 13.
>>
>> I got really interested in QR Codes a while back, and I tried using one
>> to promote a WikiMeetup in Coimbatore.
>>
>> I stumbled across QR Pedia on Google, and thought I'd get in touch with
>> you.
>> I thought of this crazy idea to promote learning History and Geography
>> via Wikipedia in India, using QR Codes. Seeing that a VAST majority of kids
>> today roam around with BlackBerrys, iPhones, et al, I thought this would be
>> a good opportunity.
>>
>> I'm a mega transport enthusiast, so I thought I'd write to the Bangalore
>> Metro Rail Corporation Limited, who operate the Bangalore Metro. I chose
>> BMRCL, because:* *
>> 1> Out of the three Metro systems in the country, it is the most
>> approachable.
>> 2> Out of the various agencies in Bangalore and it's parent state of
>> Karnataka, again it is the most approachable and tech savvy.
>>
>> My plan is to convince the BMRCL about providing QR codes to the various
>> localities and landmarks along the route of the first track.
>> Ideas in my brain are:
>> 1> Each station has multiple exits, each of those can be linked to an
>> article. Eg: At MG Road station, there is an exit towards Commercial
>> Street, one towards Brigade Road, and one towards the Parade Ground. The
>> Brigade Road exit can have a QR code pointing to Brigade Road, while the
>> Comm. St, one can have one pointing to it's article.
>> 2> Where the board says the station name, place a Code for the article of
>> that area.
>> 3> Presently, two stations are named after people: Mahatama Gandhi and
>> Swami Vivekananda. More are in the pipeline, once the construction is
>> completed. We could link the Code to the article on that person.
>>
>> I agree that articles should be in all possible languages and should be
>> of high quality with good media. I am working on this, hoping the community
>> will join me.* *
>> *
>> *This came in response:*
>>
>> *I don't think its silly at all. What can we do to help you? Most of our
>> best successes have been silly ideas (who would think you could allow
>> everyone to edit a good source of information?)
>>
>> We have a following of people who like writing articles and the Wikimedia
>> UK board are keen on this idea. (We were also in the Wikimedia Foundation
>> annual report)
>>
>> We can show you how we ran the Derby project * *
>> http://midea.nmc.org/2011/12/one-small-museum-making-a-big-impact-an-interview-with-roger-bamkin/
>>
>> One of our most repected editors in the UK is 13 now!* *
>>
>> Do you have some "sources" that we could write these articles from? You
>> may be able to convince the bus company by doing one stop?
>>
>> Very interested in helping you, the bus passemgers etc and of course
>> Wikipedia
>>
>> regards* *
>> Roger*
>>
>> *Further*:
>> *Srikanth
>>
>> Obviously Ive never tried to sell this idea to a bus company, but I have
>> given talks in Bristol about how QRpedia can move a museum or a city up the
>> google rankings.
>>
>> I have also copied in Terence Eden as he has also spoken about this idea
>> (we both made QRpedia together). He'll be intrigued by the India link and
>> he may be able to suggest other business cases.
>>
>> If you look on my wikipedia page and try the links ...* *
>>
>> regards
>> Victuallers - Roger*
>>
>> *From Terence:*
>> *Sounds really good. I currently work for [placeholder]- who are based in
>> Bangalore.  Hopefully I'll be able to come out and visit the
>> installation in 2012 :-)
>>
>> You could also link to the transport company's Wikipedia page - they* *
>> may like to see that as an example.*
>>
>>
>> Hopefully, something can happen.
>>
>> --
>> Regards,
>> Sri

Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] India Program: Community Monthly Report: Feb 2012

2012-03-07 Thread Srikanth Ramakrishnan 
Heya,
Personally, I feel that the work done by the Chapter and IP need to
segregated, solely for the purpose of accountability.


On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 1:26 AM, Anirudh Bhati  wrote:

> On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 2:47 PM, Shiju Alex wrote:
>
>> I am replying to this mail as a *Malayalam wikimedia community member*.
>>
>>
>> Fact:  Subhashish, *former volunteer*, and now paid consultant with
>>> India Programs.
>>>
>>
>> What do you mean by this? I Shiju Alex is a Indic language wikipedian now
>> close to 6 years. According to Mr. Anirudh (an EC member of India chapter)
>> I am a former volunteer. is this is the official position of wikimedia
>> India chapter? As a community member I require an explanation for this.
>>
>>
> Shiju, you and Subhashish have been volunteers but now you are paid
> contractors hired by the Foundation.  Any work you do within the purview of
> your contractual relationship with the Foundation will be work as a paid
> contractor and cannot be deemed to be the same as a volunteer. You can
> continue being volunteers once your contractual assignment is complete.  Is
> that so difficult to understand?
>
> The difference is this: I am an unpaid volunteer who cannot expend the
> same amount of time and energy towards our projects as you are currently
> able to.
>
>
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>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
>>
>>
>
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-- 
Regards,
Srikanth Ramakrishnan.
Wikipedia Coimbatore Meetup on February 12th.
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Meetup/Coimbatore
Aliens invaded Tamil Nadu, left their Spacship and now it is a Toll Plaza.
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:IVRCL-Vijayamangalam-Toll-Plaza.JPG
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] India Program: Community Monthly Report: Feb 2012

2012-03-07 Thread Shiju Alex 
>
> Shiju, you and Subhashish have been volunteers but now you are paid
> contractors hired by the Foundation.  Any work you do within the purview of
> your contractual relationship with the Foundation will be work as a paid
> contractor and cannot be deemed to be the same as a volunteer. You can
> continue being volunteers once your contractual assignment is complete.  Is
> that so difficult to understand?
>

You are totally wrong. That is the difference between your involvement with
wikimedia movement and mine. My involvement with wikimedia movement will be
there *even if this job is not there*. So just DO NOT compare your
wikimedia contribution with mine. As a volunteer I will decide which  all
projects I need to work. Which means I still  continue to contribute to
various wiki projects as a volunteer. I do not want your permission for
that. Who had given you the authority to expel or exclude me from Wikimedia
community?



Let me ask you a basic question. Are you with wikimedia movement for
helping it or for screwing it up. I was going through the replies and your
wiki contributions over the past few months. What is your intention in
being with Wikimedia movement in India.


Shiju Alex

(An Indic language wikipedian)







On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 2:56 PM, Anirudh Bhati  wrote:

> On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 2:47 PM, Shiju Alex wrote:
>
>> I am replying to this mail as a *Malayalam wikimedia community member*.
>>
>>
>> Fact:  Subhashish, *former volunteer*, and now paid consultant with
>>> India Programs.
>>>
>>
>> What do you mean by this? I Shiju Alex is a Indic language wikipedian now
>> close to 6 years. According to Mr. Anirudh (an EC member of India chapter)
>> I am a former volunteer. is this is the official position of wikimedia
>> India chapter? As a community member I require an explanation for this.
>>
>>
> Shiju, you and Subhashish have been volunteers but now you are paid
> contractors hired by the Foundation.  Any work you do within the purview of
> your contractual relationship with the Foundation will be work as a paid
> contractor and cannot be deemed to be the same as a volunteer. You can
> continue being volunteers once your contractual assignment is complete.  Is
> that so difficult to understand?
>
> The difference is this: I am an unpaid volunteer who cannot expend the
> same amount of time and energy towards our projects as you are currently
> able to.
>
>
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>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
>>
>>
>
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] India Program: Community Monthly Report: Feb 2012

2012-03-07 Thread Srikanth Ramakrishnan 
Shiju,
I request you to calm down first.
Please do NOT take anything as a personal attack.
--

On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 1:39 AM, Shiju Alex wrote:

> Shiju, you and Subhashish have been volunteers but now you are paid
>> contractors hired by the Foundation.  Any work you do within the purview of
>> your contractual relationship with the Foundation will be work as a paid
>> contractor and cannot be deemed to be the same as a volunteer. You can
>> continue being volunteers once your contractual assignment is complete.  Is
>> that so difficult to understand?
>>
>
> You are totally wrong. That is the difference between your involvement
> with wikimedia movement and mine. My involvement with wikimedia movement
> will be there *even if this job is not there*. So just DO NOT compare
> your wikimedia contribution with mine. As a volunteer I will decide which
> all projects I need to work. Which means I still  continue to contribute to
> various wiki projects as a volunteer. I do not want your permission for
> that. Who had given you the authority to expel or exclude me from Wikimedia
> community?
>
>
>
> Let me ask you a basic question. Are you with wikimedia movement for
> helping it or for screwing it up. I was going through the replies and your
> wiki contributions over the past few months. What is your intention in
> being with Wikimedia movement in India.
>
>
>
> Shiju Alex
>
> (An Indic language wikipedian)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 2:56 PM, Anirudh Bhati wrote:
>
>> On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 2:47 PM, Shiju Alex wrote:
>>
>>> I am replying to this mail as a *Malayalam wikimedia community member*.
>>>
>>>
>>> Fact:  Subhashish, *former volunteer*, and now paid consultant with
 India Programs.

>>>
>>> What do you mean by this? I Shiju Alex is a Indic language wikipedian
>>> now close to 6 years. According to Mr. Anirudh (an EC member of India
>>> chapter) I am a former volunteer. is this is the official position of
>>> wikimedia India chapter? As a community member I require an explanation for
>>> this.
>>>
>>>
>> Shiju, you and Subhashish have been volunteers but now you are paid
>> contractors hired by the Foundation.  Any work you do within the purview of
>> your contractual relationship with the Foundation will be work as a paid
>> contractor and cannot be deemed to be the same as a volunteer. You can
>> continue being volunteers once your contractual assignment is complete.  Is
>> that so difficult to understand?
>>
>> The difference is this: I am an unpaid volunteer who cannot expend the
>> same amount of time and energy towards our projects as you are currently
>> able to.
>>
>>
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>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
>>>
>>>
>>
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>>
>
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-- 
Regards,
Srikanth Ramakrishnan.
Wikipedia Coimbatore Meetup on February 12th.
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Meetup/Coimbatore
Aliens invaded Tamil Nadu, left their Spacship and now it is a Toll Plaza.
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:IVRCL-Vijayamangalam-Toll-Plaza.JPG
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Announcing Noopur Raval as Consultant, Wikimedia Foundation (India Program, Communications)

2012-03-07 Thread Srikanth Ramakrishnan 
Congratulations Noopur.
I had a feeling that your contributions to the movement would be different
when I met you [October 2009]. Looks like I was right. : )

On Tue, Mar 6, 2012 at 1:31 AM, Jayanta Nath  wrote:

> Congratulations Noopur!!
>
> from Calcutta community...
>
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-- 
Regards,
Srikanth Ramakrishnan.
Wikipedia Coimbatore Meetup on February 12th.
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Meetup/Coimbatore
Aliens invaded Tamil Nadu, left their Spacship and now it is a Toll Plaza.
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:IVRCL-Vijayamangalam-Toll-Plaza.JPG
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] India Program: Community Monthly Report: Feb 2012

2012-03-07 Thread Anirudh Bhati 
On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 3:09 PM, Shiju Alex wrote:

> Shiju, you and Subhashish have been volunteers but now you are paid
>> contractors hired by the Foundation.  Any work you do within the purview of
>> your contractual relationship with the Foundation will be work as a paid
>> contractor and cannot be deemed to be the same as a volunteer. You can
>> continue being volunteers once your contractual assignment is complete.  Is
>> that so difficult to understand?
>>
>
> You are totally wrong. That is the difference between your involvement
> with wikimedia movement and mine. My involvement with wikimedia movement
> will be there *even if this job is not there*. So just DO NOT compare
> your wikimedia contribution with mine. As a volunteer I will decide which
> all projects I need to work. Which means I still  continue to contribute to
> various wiki projects as a volunteer. I do not want your permission for
> that. Who had given you the authority to expel or exclude me from Wikimedia
> community?
>
> Let me ask you a basic question. Are you with wikimedia movement for
> helping it or for screwing it up. I was going through the replies and your
> wiki contributions over the past few months. What is your intention in
> being with Wikimedia movement in India.


If you cannot comprehend simple English, then you should re-consider
whether you can add value to the discussions here.  I will not reiterate
myself, the difference is quite clear.  Please remember that the list is
moderated.  Thanks.


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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] India Program: Community Monthly Report: Feb 2012

2012-03-07 Thread Theo10011 
Hi Shiju

On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 3:09 PM, Shiju Alex wrote:

> Shiju, you and Subhashish have been volunteers but now you are paid
>> contractors hired by the Foundation.  Any work you do within the purview of
>> your contractual relationship with the Foundation will be work as a paid
>> contractor and cannot be deemed to be the same as a volunteer. You can
>> continue being volunteers once your contractual assignment is complete.  Is
>> that so difficult to understand?
>>
>
> You are totally wrong. That is the difference between your involvement
> with wikimedia movement and mine. My involvement with wikimedia movement
> will be there *even if this job is not there*. So just DO NOT compare
> your wikimedia contribution with mine. As a volunteer I will decide which
> all projects I need to work. Which means I still  continue to contribute to
> various wiki projects as a volunteer. I do not want your permission for
> that. Who had given you the authority to expel or exclude me from Wikimedia
> community?
>

Let me first explain what he was trying to refer to. He called you a
volunteer, from the Latin word voluntarius[1], meaning voluntary or
willing. The noun form [2] describes it as -
1.One who enters into, or offers for, any
service of
his/her own free will, especially when done without pay.

I'm not sure what you are reacting to. It is a simple distinction between
paid and non-paid effort. You were a community member, you still are, and
you shall remain one until you choose to leave it.

You are however, currently a paid employee, there is a very clear
distinction between volunteers and staff. I assure you it exists on en.wp
and outside India when the senior staff interact and talk about other
community members, they always use the word "volunteers" as opposed to
"staff". You can check with this in several hundred of Sue and Barry's
email if you like. The distinction is paid vs. non-paid, nothing more. This
extends to community members and beyond.

There is no reason to be angry over this, it's just terminology and
possibly a misunderstanding.


> Let me ask you a basic question. Are you with wikimedia movement for
> helping it or for screwing it up. I was going through the replies and your
> wiki contributions over the past few months. What is your intention in
> being with Wikimedia movement in India.


No one should be asking that question to another community member. I can
ask you that, you can ask me, it is all a matter of perspective. We are
only accountable to ourselves, and what we choose to do or say.

I would ask you to please calm down and don't take this as an offense. It's
probably just a misunderstanding with terminology that is usually applied
in these situations.

Regards
Theo

[1]http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/voluntarius#Latin
[2]http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/volunteer
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] India Program: Community Monthly Report: Feb 2012

2012-03-07 Thread Anivar Aravind 
On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 2:47 PM, Shiju Alex  wrote:
> I am replying to this mail as a Malayalam wikimedia community member.
>
>
>> Fact:  Subhashish, former volunteer, and now paid consultant with India
>> Programs.
>
>
> What do you mean by this? I Shiju Alex is a Indic language wikipedian now
> close to 6 years. According to Mr. Anirudh (an EC member of India chapter) I
> am a former volunteer. is this is the official position of wikimedia India
> chapter? As a community member I require an explanation for this.


Dear Shiju & subha,

Both of you need to differentiate between paid and volunteered works.
you can still volunteer for many things in your individual capacity .
Only two of you need to define which one is a  part of job and which
one is in your volunteer capacities. I think India programme reports
only need to highlight the official part more clearly with specific
involvement. Volunteering can go as a part of community/chapter
reports .

Hope it is clear now

Anivar

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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] India Program: Community Monthly Report: Feb 2012

2012-03-07 Thread CherianTinu Abraham 
Dear Anirudh & Shiju,

I would strongly dispose this as NOT the official position of the chapter.

I have a different opinion but again I won't attribute to the chapter. What
I say below is my personal opinion.

Just because someone decides to work full time ( and paid too) doesn't mean
it ceases to do anything as a volunteer.

If someone is not able to spend the same extent of time to the movement as
a volunteer, there is their own problem. Nobody is going to ask anyone why
you are not doing your job as a volunteer.  I have a high pressured day job
to keep and family & friends to take care, and I do my volunteer work with
the limited time , it is my choice. If I decide to work as full time as a
paid staff ( for the same movement), I don't need advise from someone else
to tell me what I should be doing as a volunteer and what I should not !

On a very hypothetical case, if you were working on a legal position for
WMF India, would you like someone to define that what your volunteer work
should be ?

As I clearly explained earlier, many a times, due to nature of our
involvement with the movement, it is practically separate whether  we does
something as a volunteer, chapter member or chapter board member or even
foundation staff.

Pranav and Pradeep were working on a Foundation paid Fellowship for an
event like WikiConference that was supported by Community and conducted on
the banner of the Wikimedia India Chapter. Both are chapter members and
leaders ( as well as community members). Where does the work for the
Conference end as a Foundation full time Fellow end and where does it start
as community or chapter member?

Everyone is encouraged to volunteer for the chapter , regardless of what
his or her day job is. There is nothing that prevents even a foundation
staff or contractor even being the board member of the chapter , less alone
any volunteer or member.  There are several Wikimedia chapters in the world
who has paid and full time staff working for them. The Secretary (
volunteer) of the Dutch chapter is also a Foundation Full time Contractor.

Hope that clarifies

-TC





On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 2:56 PM, Anirudh Bhati  wrote:

> On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 2:47 PM, Shiju Alex wrote:
>
>> I am replying to this mail as a *Malayalam wikimedia community member*.
>>
>>
>> Fact:  Subhashish, *former volunteer*, and now paid consultant with
>>> India Programs.
>>>
>>
>> What do you mean by this? I Shiju Alex is a Indic language wikipedian now
>> close to 6 years. According to Mr. Anirudh (an EC member of India chapter)
>> I am a former volunteer. is this is the official position of wikimedia
>> India chapter? As a community member I require an explanation for this.
>>
>>
> Shiju, you and Subhashish have been volunteers but now you are paid
> contractors hired by the Foundation.  Any work you do within the purview of
> your contractual relationship with the Foundation will be work as a paid
> contractor and cannot be deemed to be the same as a volunteer. You can
> continue being volunteers once your contractual assignment is complete.  Is
> that so difficult to understand?
>
> The difference is this: I am an unpaid volunteer who cannot expend the
> same amount of time and energy towards our projects as you are currently
> able to.
>
>
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] India Program: Community Monthly Report: Feb 2012

2012-03-07 Thread Ashwin Baindur 
Without meaning to be disrespectful of you. your helpful attitude or your
excellent work, Shiju, we have a bit of a problem when we ask people for
help/favours/action in case they are holding multiple positions.

I asked for a list of Malayalam articles of the 500 article CD collection.
You obliged me promptly and I was happy & grateful. I had asked you as a
friend/volunteer to one another. But suppose you hadn't obliged for any
personal reason, there was nothing I could do about it but feel bad.

But you are in fact a paid employee/contractor of WMF and your area of
responsibility is the very same area where you were earlier only a
volunteer. Had you refused for whatever reason, have I a right to "expect"
support from you because you are being paid to do so?

Take Noopur's case, her responsibilities are highly incestuous as she is
all things - editor/chapter/WMF contractor.  It is quite likely that the
communications team of the chapter wants to go as per one line of thought
whereas the WMF may want to go along another. In this case, there is a
Conflict of Interest. How can we know whether she is acting true to
community or true to WMF? It is wrong to put Noopur in such a position and
Imho she should clearly embrace the role of WMF employee/contractor and be
true to WMF at all times. There is enough time & opportunity for her to be
community once her paid association ends.

We do need certain demarcation in roles and responsibilities. I recommend
that those who are WMF employees should NOT be part of the Chapter
communications team. They are welcome to help and partner but in their
proper role as WMF appointments.

Similarly, a volunteer who is a chapter EC should clarify at all times with
what voice he speaks. In case you are speaking as a Chapter EC, please sign
off as (for example) Anirudh Bhati, Member EC, India Chapter and use your
official wikimedia.in email account. If you are writing as a simple editor
and giving your personal opinion, then Nearly Headless Nick or Sir Nicholas
de Mimsy Porpington will do just fine.

In my own case, I act as English Wikipedia SIG. I see myself as a steward
of WikiProject India. The WikiProject is a sacred trust which I hold in
care on behalf of the greater community. I am a chapter member and do this
job as a consequence of nomination and approval by community members in the
Chapter wiki. But I see myself as answerable NOT to the Chapter but to the
whole community. My work should be judged by the community and the day they
feel I am not acting in the best interests of the community, I will stop
working on WikiProject India and become a normal editor again, even if the
chapter feels I am doing okay. But if the chapter feels they need to
replace me as English SIG I have no objection at all but will not stop
working in the WikiProject because of that. The day I feel that chapter
membership compromises my WikiProject India responsibilities, I will quit
the chapter.

Just some of my thoughts.

Warm regards,

Ashwin Baindur
--


On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 2:47 PM, Shiju Alex wrote:

> I am replying to this mail as a *Malayalam wikimedia community member*.
>
>
> Fact:  Subhashish, *former volunteer*, and now paid consultant with India
>> Programs.
>>
>
> What do you mean by this? I Shiju Alex is a Indic language wikipedian now
> close to 6 years. According to Mr. Anirudh (an EC member of India chapter)
> I am a former volunteer. is this is the official position of wikimedia
> India chapter? As a community member I require an explanation for this.
>
>
> Shiju Alex
>
> (An Indic language wikipedian)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 1:11 PM, Anirudh Bhati wrote:
>
>> On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 12:42 PM, Hisham  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Nothing is conducted solely by India Program - and hence I said
>>> "supported."  Everything is conducted by the community - sometimes under
>>> the aegis of the Chapter and sometimes independently.  The support that we
>>> have provided varies - from getting the actual event fixed up to providing
>>> presentation material to interested community members to participating in
>>> these events.
>>>
>>
>> Can this be clearly specified in the report?  That is more helpful than
>> simply "supported".  For instance, when you say "Supported the community
>> to get a venue in Guwahati University", it would help us understand more if
>> you could tell us how.
>>
>>  On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 12:45 PM, CherianTinu Abraham <
>> tinucher...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Pranav,
>>> In India, it is extremely difficult to hairline separate who has done
>>> which event. - Chapter, Community and WMF India Programs.
>>>
>>
>> I agree it's not possible to do that, but it is entirely possible to list
>> out the work done in specific.  This enhances our accountability and
>> transparency towards the community.
>>
>>
>>> Let us take the case of the Trichy event, the request came to a
>>> community member Rsrikanth to the chapter

Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] India Program: Community Monthly Report: Feb 2012

2012-03-07 Thread Shiju Alex 
>
> Let me first explain what he was trying to refer to. He called you a
> volunteer, from the Latin word voluntarius[1], meaning voluntary or
> willing. The noun form [2] describes it as -
> 1.One who enters into, or offers for, any 
> service of
> his/her own free will, especially when done without pay.
>

That exactly is the difference of my contribution as a volunteer.  My
contribution to wiki as a volunteer do not depend on the above definition
or my official involvement in WMF or other WMF entities.

On one side few people (for example, Anirudh) are screwing up volunteers
for taking job in WMF; On the other side they themselves criticizing WMF
staff for not being recruited from community. So what is the real intention
of all these discussions?



Shiju

(Again an Indic language wikipedian)


On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 3:24 PM, Theo10011  wrote:

> Hi Shiju
>
> On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 3:09 PM, Shiju Alex wrote:
>
>> Shiju, you and Subhashish have been volunteers but now you are paid
>>> contractors hired by the Foundation.  Any work you do within the purview of
>>> your contractual relationship with the Foundation will be work as a paid
>>> contractor and cannot be deemed to be the same as a volunteer. You can
>>> continue being volunteers once your contractual assignment is complete.  Is
>>> that so difficult to understand?
>>>
>>
>> You are totally wrong. That is the difference between your involvement
>> with wikimedia movement and mine. My involvement with wikimedia movement
>> will be there *even if this job is not there*. So just DO NOT compare
>> your wikimedia contribution with mine. As a volunteer I will decide which
>> all projects I need to work. Which means I still  continue to contribute to
>> various wiki projects as a volunteer. I do not want your permission for
>> that. Who had given you the authority to expel or exclude me from Wikimedia
>> community?
>>
>
> Let me first explain what he was trying to refer to. He called you a
> volunteer, from the Latin word voluntarius[1], meaning voluntary or
> willing. The noun form [2] describes it as -
>  1.One who enters into, or offers for, any 
> service of
> his/her own free will, especially when done without pay.
>
> I'm not sure what you are reacting to. It is a simple distinction between
> paid and non-paid effort. You were a community member, you still are, and
> you shall remain one until you choose to leave it.
>
> You are however, currently a paid employee, there is a very clear
> distinction between volunteers and staff. I assure you it exists on en.wp
> and outside India when the senior staff interact and talk about other
> community members, they always use the word "volunteers" as opposed to
> "staff". You can check with this in several hundred of Sue and Barry's
> email if you like. The distinction is paid vs. non-paid, nothing more. This
> extends to community members and beyond.
>
> There is no reason to be angry over this, it's just terminology and
> possibly a misunderstanding.
>
>
>> Let me ask you a basic question. Are you with wikimedia movement for
>> helping it or for screwing it up. I was going through the replies and your
>> wiki contributions over the past few months. What is your intention in
>> being with Wikimedia movement in India.
>
>
> No one should be asking that question to another community member. I can
> ask you that, you can ask me, it is all a matter of perspective. We are
> only accountable to ourselves, and what we choose to do or say.
>
> I would ask you to please calm down and don't take this as an offense.
> It's probably just a misunderstanding with terminology that is usually
> applied in these situations.
>
> Regards
> Theo
>
> [1]http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/voluntarius#Latin
> [2]http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/volunteer
>
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] India Program: Community Monthly Report: Feb 2012

2012-03-07 Thread Achal Prabhala 
In keeping with this spirit :) and the difficulty of distinguishing 
between all these roles, I propose a simple purity test:


Are you a paid employee of the foundation or a paid contractor? (-25)
Have you ever been a paid employee or contractor? (-15)
Did you resign/stop? (+5)
Did you resign/stop in disgust? (+25)
Are you on the board of the foundation? (-200)
Did you ever serve on the board of the foundation? (-100)
Are you on the advisory board of the foundation? (what's that?)
Have you ever met a current or former foundation board member or staff 
member? (-25)
Did you decontaminate yourself in a registered medical facility 
immediately after this meeting? (+50)

Did you talk to this person for more than 30 seconds? (-50)
Did you share a meal with this person? (-75)
Did you share, er, anything else with this person? (-300)
Do you know anyone who has met with a foundation board member or staff 
member for more than 30 seconds? (-15)

Do you know this person well? (-30)
Have you ever been helped in your work by a foundation board member or 
staff member who was a 'former volunteer'? (-100)
Have you ever been helped in your work by a foundation board member or 
staff member who was not a 'former volunteer'? (-200)
Do you know anyone who has been helped by a foundation board member or 
staff member? (-50)

Do you know why you're even bothering to read these questions? (+1000)

For convenience's sake, anyone with a score of -100 or below should be 
branded on the forehead with hot irons for easy identification.


Cheers :)


On Wednesday 07 March 2012 02:56 PM, Anirudh Bhati wrote:
On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 2:47 PM, Shiju Alex > wrote:


I am replying to this mail as a *Malayalam wikimedia community
member*.


Fact:  Subhashish, *former volunteer*, and now paid consultant
with India Programs.


What do you mean by this? I Shiju Alex is a Indic language
wikipedian now close to 6 years. According to Mr. Anirudh (an EC
member of India chapter) I am a former volunteer. is this is the
official position of wikimedia India chapter? As a community
member I require an explanation for this.


Shiju, you and Subhashish have been volunteers but now you are paid 
contractors hired by the Foundation.  Any work you do within the 
purview of your contractual relationship with the Foundation will be 
work as a paid contractor and cannot be deemed to be the same as a 
volunteer. You can continue being volunteers once your contractual 
assignment is complete.  Is that so difficult to understand?


The difference is this: I am an unpaid volunteer who cannot expend the 
same amount of time and energy towards our projects as you are 
currently able to.


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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] India Program: Community Monthly Report: Feb 2012

2012-03-07 Thread Anirudh Bhati 
Thanks, Tinu.  I generally agree with you.  Except that I never tried to
tell anyone about what they ought to be doing as a volunteer and what not.
 There is a simple distinction between staff/consultants and volunteers as
is evident from conventional usage across the Wikimedia universe.  The only
reference I made was to paid work done under the purview of contractual
assignment with the Foundation, anything outside done in individual
capacity and outside of working hours is still that of a volunteer.

Also, as long as I am not signing off with my official credentials at the
end of the email, I am only expressing personal opinion.  For instance, I
wouldn't claim that Shiju's indisposition towards me is the official stance
of his employer.

On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 3:37 PM, CherianTinu Abraham
wrote:

> Dear Anirudh & Shiju,
>
> I would strongly dispose this as NOT the official position of the chapter.
>
> I have a different opinion but again I won't attribute to the chapter.
> What I say below is my personal opinion.
>
> Just because someone decides to work full time ( and paid too) doesn't
> mean it ceases to do anything as a volunteer.
>
> If someone is not able to spend the same extent of time to the movement as
> a volunteer, there is their own problem. Nobody is going to ask anyone why
> you are not doing your job as a volunteer.  I have a high pressured day job
> to keep and family & friends to take care, and I do my volunteer work with
> the limited time , it is my choice. If I decide to work as full time as a
> paid staff ( for the same movement), I don't need advise from someone else
> to tell me what I should be doing as a volunteer and what I should not !
>
> On a very hypothetical case, if you were working on a legal position for
> WMF India, would you like someone to define that what your volunteer work
> should be ?
>
> As I clearly explained earlier, many a times, due to nature of our
> involvement with the movement, it is practically separate whether  we does
> something as a volunteer, chapter member or chapter board member or even
> foundation staff.
>
> Pranav and Pradeep were working on a Foundation paid Fellowship for an
> event like WikiConference that was supported by Community and conducted on
> the banner of the Wikimedia India Chapter. Both are chapter members and
> leaders ( as well as community members). Where does the work for the
> Conference end as a Foundation full time Fellow end and where does it start
> as community or chapter member?
>
> Everyone is encouraged to volunteer for the chapter , regardless of what
> his or her day job is. There is nothing that prevents even a foundation
> staff or contractor even being the board member of the chapter , less alone
> any volunteer or member.  There are several Wikimedia chapters in the world
> who has paid and full time staff working for them. The Secretary (
> volunteer) of the Dutch chapter is also a Foundation Full time Contractor.
>
> Hope that clarifies
>
> -TC
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 2:56 PM, Anirudh Bhati wrote:
>
>> On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 2:47 PM, Shiju Alex wrote:
>>
>>> I am replying to this mail as a *Malayalam wikimedia community member*.
>>>
>>>
>>> Fact:  Subhashish, *former volunteer*, and now paid consultant with
 India Programs.

>>>
>>> What do you mean by this? I Shiju Alex is a Indic language wikipedian
>>> now close to 6 years. According to Mr. Anirudh (an EC member of India
>>> chapter) I am a former volunteer. is this is the official position of
>>> wikimedia India chapter? As a community member I require an explanation for
>>> this.
>>>
>>>
>> Shiju, you and Subhashish have been volunteers but now you are paid
>> contractors hired by the Foundation.  Any work you do within the purview of
>> your contractual relationship with the Foundation will be work as a paid
>> contractor and cannot be deemed to be the same as a volunteer. You can
>> continue being volunteers once your contractual assignment is complete.  Is
>> that so difficult to understand?
>>
>> The difference is this: I am an unpaid volunteer who cannot expend the
>> same amount of time and energy towards our projects as you are currently
>> able to.
>>
>>
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>>>
>>>
>>
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>
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] India Program: Community Monthly Report: Feb 2012

2012-03-07 Thread Srikanth Lakshmanan 
On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 15:43, Achal Prabhala  wrote:

> In keeping with this spirit :) and the difficulty of distinguishing
> between all these roles, I propose a simple purity test:
>

Can you please stop trolling? This is not 

-- 
Regards
Srikanth.L
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] India Program: Community Monthly Report: Feb 2012

2012-03-07 Thread Achal Prabhala 



On Wednesday 07 March 2012 03:47 PM, Srikanth Lakshmanan wrote:
On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 15:43, Achal Prabhala > wrote:


In keeping with this spirit :) and the difficulty of
distinguishing between all these roles, I propose a simple purity
test:


Can you please stop trolling? This is not 



Apologies. That was meant as a joke.



--
Regards
Srikanth.L


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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] India Program: Community Monthly Report: Feb 2012

2012-03-07 Thread Aditya Sengupta 
On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 15:51, Achal Prabhala  wrote:

>
>
> On Wednesday 07 March 2012 03:47 PM, Srikanth Lakshmanan wrote:
>
>  On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 15:43, Achal Prabhala > aprabh...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>>In keeping with this spirit :) and the difficulty of
>>distinguishing between all these roles, I propose a simple purity
>>test:
>>
>>
>> Can you please stop trolling? This is not 
>>
>
>
> Apologies. That was meant as a joke.
>



What? I was halfway through calculating my score. Dammit.
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] India Program: Community Monthly Report: Feb 2012

2012-03-07 Thread Hisham 


On Mar 7, 2012, at 12:45 PM, CherianTinu Abraham wrote:

> Hi Pranav, 
> In India, it is extremely difficult to hairline separate who has done which 
> event. - Chapter, Community and WMF India Programs. 
> 
> Let us take the case of the Trichy event, the request came to a community 
> member Rsrikanth to the chapter. Nitika was actively involved along with me 
> and Naveen. The chapter signed the MoU and supplied some goodies. Nitika was 
> actively involved in coaching Sohan, a chapter member and Rsrikanth.  One 
> must not also forget that both Hisham & Nitika are also chapter members. 
> 

/cut/

> 
> As I explained, it is difficult to separate the contributions of different 
> entities or individuals for the Wikimedia  movement in India. 
> 
> IMHO, we should be only concerned about the outcomes of the event and not who 
> gets the credit.  
> 

I agree with Tinu.  It's really hard to put a rigid structure to this.  The 
illustration of the Trichy event (see above)  of everyone pitching in - is not 
unique at all.  In fact, it's probably always the case, in some degree or the 
other.   The need of the hour (and I daresay, the near-distant future) is 
flexibility and agility. 

hisham


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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] India Program: Community Monthly Report: Feb 2012

2012-03-07 Thread Theo10011 
On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 3:37 PM, CherianTinu Abraham
wrote:

>
> Everyone is encouraged to volunteer for the chapter , regardless of what
> his or her day job is. There is nothing that prevents even a foundation
> staff or contractor even being the board member of the chapter , less alone
> any volunteer or member.  There are several Wikimedia chapters in the world
> who has paid and full time staff working for them. The Secretary (
> volunteer) of the Dutch chapter is also a Foundation Full time Contractor.
>
> Hope that clarifies


I'm not sure what you are talking about above.

The issue with Siebrand is a conflict of interest, as far as I know, they
should/would have declared it to their members. Laws in several countries
dictate that board of non-profit can not be paid employees of their own or
parent organizations. Several chapter board members usually resign to take
up employee position. It used to be that they had to resign to take up any
position as staff, but contractor is a relatively new feature with
confusing legality, but there are still individuals who see the distinction
and resign or declare their conflicts upfront. Board members by definition
can not be paid employees, this is not my distinction but a legal one.
Something I believe all WIkimedia organizations should adhere to.

I believe Ashwin explained it much better than I could. If we can demarcate
what role someone does something as, it would help a lot. The community
staff at WMF usually keep 2 accounts to demarcate this clearly, on wiki.

It might not be "practically separate whether  we does something as a
volunteer" the distinction is actually quite simple. One that en.wp,
staff and majority of the community holds- paid vs. non-paid. What one does
as an employee is separate from what one does as an employee. That is why
they have two accounts and rather large disclaimers on their user pages,
demarcating this very difference.

Regards
Theo

P.S. @achal lol
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] India Program: Community Monthly Report: Feb 2012

2012-03-07 Thread wheredevelsdare 

This whole thread has gone OT, imo.

It may be a little difficult to collate what your doing, Hisham, but imo, the 
community can expect a detailed report of what IP is doing on a monthly basis 
as well as a report from the Chapter - reasons for which have been explained in 
my previous email. Can you please provide a detailed report?

From: his...@wikimedia.org
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 15:56:52 +0530
To: wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Subject: Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] India Program: Community Monthly Report: Feb
2012







On Mar 7, 2012, at 12:45 PM, CherianTinu Abraham wrote:Hi Pranav, 
In India, it is extremely difficult to hairline separate who has done which 
event. - Chapter, Community and WMF India Programs. 

Let us take the case of the Trichy event, the request came to a community 
member Rsrikanth to the chapter. Nitika was actively involved along with me and 
Naveen. The chapter signed the MoU and supplied some goodies. Nitika was 
actively involved in coaching Sohan, a chapter member and Rsrikanth.  One must 
not also forget that both Hisham & Nitika are also chapter members. 




/cut/



As I explained, it is difficult to separate the contributions of different 
entities or individuals for the Wikimedia  movement in India. 

IMHO, we should be only concerned about the outcomes of the event and not who 
gets the credit.  




I agree with Tinu.  It's really hard to put a rigid structure to this.  The 
illustration of the Trichy event (see above)  of everyone pitching in - is not 
unique at all.  In fact, it's probably always the case, in some degree or the 
other.   The need of the hour (and I daresay, the near-distant future) is 
flexibility and agility. 
hisham


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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] India Program: Community Monthly Report: Feb 2012

2012-03-07 Thread Hisham 


On Mar 7, 2012, at 12:47 PM, Pradeep Mohandas wrote:

> hi,
> 
> I don't think all events will fall so neatly into categories. I do not
> want to see a situation where Chapter and Foundation wrestle for any
> event.

I agree, Pradeep. Having said that, the problem we are currently grappling with 
(and I think will continue to do so for the foreseeable future) is one of too 
much work and too little hands.  There is too much to do and no dearth of 
opportunities - and therefore there ought to be no cause for "wrestling."  
However, the India Chapter and India Program must (continue to) work at 
communicating and collaborating effectively.  I also think we should share 
these collaborations stories more impactfully to the community - to bring them 
to life for the community.

hisham___
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[Wikimediaindia-l] Featured Wikimedian on the main page of the Chapter Web Portal

2012-03-07 Thread Abhiram C 
Dear Members,

I would like to inform the Wikimedia India Chapter and its
volunteers/workers that the Featured Wikimedian for the last 2 months have
not been updated as such. I hope those who maintain the portal will look
into the matter soon enough not to be obsolete.

-- 
Thanks & Regards,
Abhiram C (User: sbblr0803)
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] India Program: Community Monthly Report: Feb 2012

2012-03-07 Thread Hisham 

On Mar 7, 2012, at 1:01 PM,  
 wrote:

> 
> Hisham: IP has taken initiatives that need to be commended as well.

Thank you!  ;-)  

> For eg. Virtual Outreach via Google Hangout is Nitikas initiative. 
> 
> >

Not nit-picking - but want to make a distinction.

It is not "Nitika's initiative."  If it is regarded as Nitika's initiative, it 
will fail!  It will only succeed if there are folks in the community who agree 
to get involved with it, try it out, draw learnings from it,  improve it, share 
it with other community members - who can then choose to adopt / adapt it.  It 
is an idea that she proposed - and she is having a bunch of discussions with a 
bunch of community members about how to actually realise it.

hisham

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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] India Program: Community Monthly Report: Feb 2012

2012-03-07 Thread Noopur 
Dear all,
In personal capacity, just offering a small clarification. I agree that
chapter and IP as organizational entities should have their roles defined
and their reports tabulated. This is a very desirable and healthy practice
imho.
Regarding my role as SIG, GLAM person, member of the Chapter communications
and Foundation consultant, I believe it is not so much a case of
conflicting roles but a matter of  fewer people around. I am already
working on weekends as volunteer (in the museum and as SIG) and do not want
to be dissociated from the chapter communications team because I sincerely
look up to Tinu as a mentor. However, this is just my personal opinion.
Thank  you
Warm regards
Noopur

On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 4:05 PM, Hisham  wrote:


>
> On Mar 7, 2012, at 12:47 PM, Pradeep Mohandas wrote:
>
> hi,
>
> I don't think all events will fall so neatly into categories. I do not
> want to see a situation where Chapter and Foundation wrestle for any
> event.
>
>
> I agree, Pradeep. Having said that, the problem we are currently grappling
> with (and I think will continue to do so for the foreseeable future) is one
> of too much work and too little hands.  There is too much to do and no
> dearth of opportunities - and therefore there ought to be no cause for
> "wrestling."  However, the India Chapter and India Program must (continue
> to) work at communicating and collaborating effectively.  I also think we
> should share these collaborations stories more impactfully to the community
> - to bring them to life for the community.
>
> hisham
>
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>


-- 
Noopur Raval
Student
Arts and Aesthetics
Jawaharlal Nehru University, New Delhi
Ph: 9650567690
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] India Program: Community Monthly Report: Feb 2012

2012-03-07 Thread CherianTinu Abraham 
If it matters, if you have read the MoA or the Chapters agreement of the
Wikimedia India Chapter or most of the chapters, the Foundation and
Chapters are independent organizations. Wikimedia Foundation is NOT a
parent organization of the Wikimedia India Chapter.

IMHO, It would be only a conflict of interest if I am both a paid employee
of the chapter and also a board member of the chapter as well.

The bigger problem is we have lots of work to do, very very little hands
and too many arm chair advisers. Period.

-TC

On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 3:59 PM, Theo10011  wrote:

> On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 3:37 PM, CherianTinu Abraham  > wrote:
>
>>
>> Everyone is encouraged to volunteer for the chapter , regardless of what
>> his or her day job is. There is nothing that prevents even a foundation
>> staff or contractor even being the board member of the chapter , less alone
>> any volunteer or member.  There are several Wikimedia chapters in the world
>> who has paid and full time staff working for them. The Secretary (
>> volunteer) of the Dutch chapter is also a Foundation Full time Contractor.
>>
>> Hope that clarifies
>
>
> I'm not sure what you are talking about above.
>
> The issue with Siebrand is a conflict of interest, as far as I know, they
> should/would have declared it to their members. Laws in several countries
> dictate that board of non-profit can not be paid employees of their own or
> parent organizations. Several chapter board members usually resign to take
> up employee position. It used to be that they had to resign to take up any
> position as staff, but contractor is a relatively new feature with
> confusing legality, but there are still individuals who see the distinction
> and resign or declare their conflicts upfront. Board members by definition
> can not be paid employees, this is not my distinction but a legal one.
> Something I believe all WIkimedia organizations should adhere to.
>
> I believe Ashwin explained it much better than I could. If we can
> demarcate what role someone does something as, it would help a lot. The
> community staff at WMF usually keep 2 accounts to demarcate this clearly,
> on wiki.
>
> It might not be "practically separate whether  we does something as a
> volunteer" the distinction is actually quite simple. One that en.wp,
> staff and majority of the community holds- paid vs. non-paid. What one does
> as an employee is separate from what one does as an employee. That is why
> they have two accounts and rather large disclaimers on their user pages,
> demarcating this very difference.
>
> Regards
> Theo
>
> P.S. @achal lol
>
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] India Program: Community Monthly Report: Feb 2012

2012-03-07 Thread Theo10011 
On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 4:14 PM, CherianTinu Abraham
wrote:

> If it matters, if you have read the MoA or the Chapters agreement of the
> Wikimedia India Chapter or most of the chapters, the Foundation and
> Chapters are independent organizations. Wikimedia Foundation is NOT a
> parent organization of the Wikimedia India Chapter.
>

I have. I have also participated in Movement roles discussions, and several
others with staff and the board members, to decide what position chapters
and WMF occupy.

Since you gave your opinion, here' s mine - No organization that has to
apply for an annual grant to the same granting organizations, request its
permission for trademark use, can be considered independent. This is again
a matter of law, not opinion. You can look at it differently, use different
terminology.

And please don't tell me about organizational independence. I
am running for the board of WMF on the argument of chapter independence and
decentralization. Out of the thousand emails and postings I have written on
this subject, some of which you have read yourself, telling me about
organizational independence feels a bit condescending.

While on that subject, can I ask what is the legal status of the Wikimedia
India program trust?


>
> IMHO, It would be only a conflict of interest if I am both a paid employee
> of the chapter and also a board member of the chapter as well.
>

Well, I was talking about the matter of law, not opinion. Some countries
make that distinction, some don't.


>
> The bigger problem is we have lots of work to do, very very little hands
> and too many arm chair advisers. Period.


No one is stopping you.


Regards
Theo
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] India Program: Community Monthly Report: Feb 2012

2012-03-07 Thread Anirudh Bhati 
Tinu,

On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 4:14 PM, CherianTinu Abraham
wrote:

> If it matters, if you have read the MoA or the Chapters agreement of the
> Wikimedia India Chapter or most of the chapters, the Foundation and
> Chapters are independent organizations. Wikimedia Foundation is NOT a
> parent organization of the Wikimedia India Chapter.
>

The Wikimedia Foundation licenses the use of its trademark to independent
and autonomous chapters around the world.  This may constitute a
principle-agent relationship EVEN in the absence of a formal quid pro quo.
 In an ideal world, I would support structures that are as efficient as
possible.  But in the real world, we have to consider many variables (many
of which may be unsuitable for public discourse) that may have affect
organizations working in a less-than-ideal legal environment.  The
associated legal risks have a direct bearing on the office-bearers of the
institutions. I would urge that the discussion around legalities be
discontinued from now on, but focus rather on the propriety of holding
multiple positions of functionaries within two organizations using the same
trademark.


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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] India Program: Community Monthly Report: Feb 2012

2012-03-07 Thread Anirudh Bhati 
On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 4:32 PM, Anirudh Bhati  wrote:

> Tinu,
>
> On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 4:14 PM, CherianTinu Abraham  > wrote:
>
>> If it matters, if you have read the MoA or the Chapters agreement of the
>> Wikimedia India Chapter or most of the chapters, the Foundation and
>> Chapters are independent organizations. Wikimedia Foundation is NOT a
>> parent organization of the Wikimedia India Chapter.
>>
>
> The Wikimedia Foundation licenses the use of its trademark to independent
> and autonomous chapters around the world.  This may constitute a
> principle-agent relationship EVEN in the absence of a formal quid pro quo.
>  In an ideal world, I would support structures that are as efficient as
> possible.  But in the real world, we have to consider many variables (many
> of which may be unsuitable for public discourse) that may have affect
> organizations working in a less-than-ideal legal environment.  The
> associated legal risks have a direct bearing on the office-bearers of the
> institutions. I would urge that the discussion around legalities be
> discontinued from now on, but focus rather on the propriety of holding
> multiple positions of functionaries within two organizations using the same
> trademark.
>

To clarify:  The issue is transient for now, and my personal opinion is
that the two organizations/teams should not have the same functionaries.
 Not suggesting anything improper on the part of our contributors, this was
not a settled issue, but hopefully they will approve of this message.


>
>
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] India Program: Community Monthly Report: Feb 2012

2012-03-07 Thread Pradeep Mohandas 
hi,

To set us back a bit, the discussion was originally centered on
volunteer-staff relationship.

Pradeep
Handheld

On 07/03/2012, Anirudh Bhati  wrote:
> Tinu,
>
> On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 4:14 PM, CherianTinu Abraham
> wrote:
>
>> If it matters, if you have read the MoA or the Chapters agreement of the
>> Wikimedia India Chapter or most of the chapters, the Foundation and
>> Chapters are independent organizations. Wikimedia Foundation is NOT a
>> parent organization of the Wikimedia India Chapter.
>>
>
> The Wikimedia Foundation licenses the use of its trademark to independent
> and autonomous chapters around the world.  This may constitute a
> principle-agent relationship EVEN in the absence of a formal quid pro quo.
>  In an ideal world, I would support structures that are as efficient as
> possible.  But in the real world, we have to consider many variables (many
> of which may be unsuitable for public discourse) that may have affect
> organizations working in a less-than-ideal legal environment.  The
> associated legal risks have a direct bearing on the office-bearers of the
> institutions. I would urge that the discussion around legalities be
> discontinued from now on, but focus rather on the propriety of holding
> multiple positions of functionaries within two organizations using the same
> trademark.
>
>
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>>
>


-- 
Pradeep Mohandas
How Pradeep uses email - http://goo.gl/6v1I9

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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] India Program: Community Monthly Report: Feb 2012

2012-03-07 Thread CherianTinu Abraham 
And to add
"That is why they have two accounts and rather large disclaimers on their
user pages, demarcating this very difference".

This is only possible in virtual worlds, while editing Wikipedia or writing
mails. Not in real life work !

I cannot have one face or voice when I am acting as board member of the
chapter and another when I am helping the community. Many of us, live and
breathe Wikimedia, making it difficult to separate on which capacity each
of our action is.

You are a long time community member, you were working as Wikimedia
Foundation paid contractor for some time, does that mean all the volunteer
work you would have done before/after or during being a full time and paid
staff of Foundation cease to have any value ?

-TC



On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 4:14 PM, CherianTinu Abraham
wrote:

> If it matters, if you have read the MoA or the Chapters agreement of the
> Wikimedia India Chapter or most of the chapters, the Foundation and
> Chapters are independent organizations. Wikimedia Foundation is NOT a
> parent organization of the Wikimedia India Chapter.
>
> IMHO, It would be only a conflict of interest if I am both a paid employee
> of the chapter and also a board member of the chapter as well.
>
> The bigger problem is we have lots of work to do, very very little hands
> and too many arm chair advisers. Period.
>
> -TC
>
> On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 3:59 PM, Theo10011  wrote:
>
>> On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 3:37 PM, CherianTinu Abraham <
>> tinucher...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Everyone is encouraged to volunteer for the chapter , regardless of what
>>> his or her day job is. There is nothing that prevents even a foundation
>>> staff or contractor even being the board member of the chapter , less alone
>>> any volunteer or member.  There are several Wikimedia chapters in the world
>>> who has paid and full time staff working for them. The Secretary (
>>> volunteer) of the Dutch chapter is also a Foundation Full time Contractor.
>>>
>>> Hope that clarifies
>>
>>
>> I'm not sure what you are talking about above.
>>
>> The issue with Siebrand is a conflict of interest, as far as I know, they
>> should/would have declared it to their members. Laws in several countries
>> dictate that board of non-profit can not be paid employees of their own or
>> parent organizations. Several chapter board members usually resign to take
>> up employee position. It used to be that they had to resign to take up any
>> position as staff, but contractor is a relatively new feature with
>> confusing legality, but there are still individuals who see the distinction
>> and resign or declare their conflicts upfront. Board members by definition
>> can not be paid employees, this is not my distinction but a legal one.
>> Something I believe all WIkimedia organizations should adhere to.
>>
>> I believe Ashwin explained it much better than I could. If we can
>> demarcate what role someone does something as, it would help a lot. The
>> community staff at WMF usually keep 2 accounts to demarcate this clearly,
>> on wiki.
>>
>> It might not be "practically separate whether  we does something as a
>> volunteer" the distinction is actually quite simple. One that en.wp,
>> staff and majority of the community holds- paid vs. non-paid. What one does
>> as an employee is separate from what one does as an employee. That is why
>> they have two accounts and rather large disclaimers on their user pages,
>> demarcating this very difference.
>>
>> Regards
>> Theo
>>
>> P.S. @achal lol
>>
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>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
>>
>>
>
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] India Program: Community Monthly Report: Feb 2012

2012-03-07 Thread Srikanth Ramakrishnan 
Errm Theo,
Do remember that the India TRUST is DIFFERENT form the Chapter. It is from
the WMF side and has absolutely NO relation with the Chapter.

On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 4:32 PM, Theo10011  wrote:

> On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 4:14 PM, CherianTinu Abraham  > wrote:
>
>> If it matters, if you have read the MoA or the Chapters agreement of the
>> Wikimedia India Chapter or most of the chapters, the Foundation and
>> Chapters are independent organizations. Wikimedia Foundation is NOT a
>> parent organization of the Wikimedia India Chapter.
>>
>
> I have. I have also participated in Movement roles discussions, and
> several others with staff and the board members, to decide what position
> chapters and WMF occupy.
>
> Since you gave your opinion, here' s mine - No organization that has to
> apply for an annual grant to the same granting organizations, request its
> permission for trademark use, can be considered independent. This is again
> a matter of law, not opinion. You can look at it differently, use different
> terminology.
>
> And please don't tell me about organizational independence. I
> am running for the board of WMF on the argument of chapter independence and
> decentralization. Out of the thousand emails and postings I have written on
> this subject, some of which you have read yourself, telling me about
> organizational independence feels a bit condescending.
>
> While on that subject, can I ask what is the legal status of the Wikimedia
> India program trust?
>
>
>>
>> IMHO, It would be only a conflict of interest if I am both a paid
>> employee of the chapter and also a board member of the chapter as well.
>>
>
> Well, I was talking about the matter of law, not opinion. Some countries
> make that distinction, some don't.
>
>
>>
>> The bigger problem is we have lots of work to do, very very little hands
>> and too many arm chair advisers. Period.
>
>
> No one is stopping you.
>
>
> Regards
> Theo
>
>
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-- 
Regards,
Srikanth Ramakrishnan.
Wikipedia Coimbatore Meetup on February 12th.
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Meetup/Coimbatore
Aliens invaded Tamil Nadu, left their Spacship and now it is a Toll Plaza.
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:IVRCL-Vijayamangalam-Toll-Plaza.JPG
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] India Program: Community Monthly Report: Feb 2012

2012-03-07 Thread Theo10011 
On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 4:38 PM, CherianTinu Abraham
wrote:

> You are a long time community member, you were working as Wikimedia
> Foundation paid contractor for some time, does that mean all the volunteer
> work you would have done before/after or during being a full time and paid
> staff of Foundation cease to have any value ?
>

Err... I have no idea who or what implied that. I don't think anyone said
anything to that effect so far. Just said volunteer and staff work is
separate, not that it goes away or one negates the other. I completely
agreed with Ashwin on the need for better demarcation.

Here's some example-
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Theo_(WMF)   - my old contractor
account- read the disclaimer
http://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=User%3ATheo10011&diff=2165185&oldid=2156716
- my volunteer account at the time- read the disclaimer/announcement

Shijus's staff account -http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Shiju  and
volunteer account -  http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Shijualex
Subha's staff account http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Subha_WMF  and
volunteer accoun t-  http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Psubhashish

They all have disclaimers, and explanation that this work is separate from
staff work. It's a pretty clean and simple staff policy, that I have
discussed with Philippe in the past.

This might be harder to do in offline work, but there should be some
attempt at demarcation like on-wiki. Their volunteer work and standing will
never go away, no one remotely suggested that. Just that, like on-wiki,
there should be better communication about which is which, nothing more.

On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 4:46 PM, Srikanth Ramakrishnan <
parakara.gh...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Errm Theo,
> Do remember that the India TRUST is DIFFERENT form the Chapter. It is from
> the WMF side and has absolutely NO relation with the Chapter.


lol I know Srikanth. My question was about its current legal status. Is it
independent? different or same as the chapter?

Regards
Theo
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] India Program: Community Monthly Report: Feb 2012

2012-03-07 Thread Hisham 


On Mar 7, 2012, at 1:11 PM, Anirudh Bhati wrote:

> On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 12:42 PM, Hisham  wrote:
> 
> Nothing is conducted solely by India Program - and hence I said "supported."  
> Everything is conducted by the community - sometimes under the aegis of the 
> Chapter and sometimes independently.  The support that we have provided 
> varies - from getting the actual event fixed up to providing presentation 
> material to interested community members to participating in these events.  
> 
> Can this be clearly specified in the report?  That is more helpful than 
> simply "supported".  For instance, when you say "Supported the community to 
> get a venue in Guwahati University", it would help us understand more if you 
> could tell us how.

Please refer this mail

> 
>  On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 12:45 PM, CherianTinu Abraham  
> wrote:
> Hi Pranav, 
> In India, it is extremely difficult to hairline separate who has done which 
> event. - Chapter, Community and WMF India Programs. 
> 
> I agree it's not possible to do that, but it is entirely possible to list out 
> the work done in specific.  This enhances our accountability and transparency 
> towards the community.
>  
> Let us take the case of the Trichy event, the request came to a community 
> member Rsrikanth to the chapter. Nitika was actively involved along with me 
> and Naveen. The chapter signed the MoU and supplied some goodies. Nitika was 
> actively involved in coaching Sohan, a chapter member and Rsrikanth.  One 
> must not also forget that both Hisham & Nitika are also chapter members. 
> 
> Fact: Nitika is a paid employee of the WMF India Programs and is not a 
> chapter/community volunteer.

Anyone who contributes - in whatever manner - is a community member.  All of us 
in the India Program team have the freedom to do whatever we want to in our 
free time.  fyi: all of us contribute in our personal, voluntary capacity as 
well as work for the movement in our official capacity.  fyi: it's not part of 
the job description.
> 
> Another event in Chennai (Jaya eng college) , where Subha led, his travel 
> expenses was reimbursed by the Chapter, Subha is a Chapter SIG Chair .. The 
> event is supported by Hisham & Nitika too. Subha is also an India Programs 
> executive. 
> 
> Fact:  Subhashish, former volunteer, and now paid consultant with India 
> Programs.

Much water has flown beneath this bridge, but I am disappointed with the 
suggestion that someone becomes a "former" volunteer just because they join the 
India Program team.  See earlier point.

>  
> 
> I actively organize Bangalore Meetups and support several others .. Should I 
> be worrying whether I am doing as a chapter member, board member or a 
> community member? 
> 
> By a matter of principle, chapter and community volunteers are just... 
> volunteers.  Paid consultants are hired to executive specific programs, and 
> hence the results of their work and reports should be presented with clarity. 
>  Simply "supporting" something does not clarify the extent of their 
> involvement.

The work that we are doing is actually supporting communities.  The healthiest 
way of us doing our jobs is to work closely (and in most cases, individually 
with community members) and help them in various ways - and make sure that the 
individual community members are front and centre of the initiative - as is 
right.  As in the mail I shared earlier on Guwahati,  or indeed in the "Nature 
of Support column on this page, we document them and share them through wider 
channels.  In other cases, they are discussed on village pumps or individual 
talk pages or on chats or whatever manner that the respective community member 
feels most comfortable - and we leave it at that.  A lot of our community 
members do not have the experience and confidence to engage publicly or take 
initiatives.  We will continue to work quietly with them.  

The purpose behind my monthly newsletter is to try and document a varied list 
of the things we do - not from the point of view of documenting every last 
detail - but to provide a summary and useful links. 

hisham

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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] India Program: Community Monthly Report: Feb 2012

2012-03-07 Thread Srikanth Ramakrishnan 
>From the mail Hisham sent out a looong time ago, it seemed like an
independent entity.
Besides, do Indian laws permit for either a society or a trust to be a
subsidiary of another organisation?
I don't think so, but I leave it for The lawyer [Anirudh/ Gautam] to
respond.

On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 4:48 PM, Theo10011  wrote:

> On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 4:38 PM, CherianTinu Abraham  > wrote:
>
>> You are a long time community member, you were working as Wikimedia
>> Foundation paid contractor for some time, does that mean all the volunteer
>> work you would have done before/after or during being a full time and paid
>> staff of Foundation cease to have any value ?
>>
>
> Err... I have no idea who or what implied that. I don't think anyone said
> anything to that effect so far. Just said volunteer and staff work is
> separate, not that it goes away or one negates the other. I completely
> agreed with Ashwin on the need for better demarcation.
>
> Here's some example-
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Theo_(WMF)   - my old contractor
> account- read the disclaimer
>
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=User%3ATheo10011&diff=2165185&oldid=2156716
> - my volunteer account at the time- read the disclaimer/announcement
>
> Shijus's staff account -http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Shiju  and
> volunteer account -  http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Shijualex
> Subha's staff account http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Subha_WMF  and
> volunteer accoun t-  http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Psubhashish
>
> They all have disclaimers, and explanation that this work is separate from
> staff work. It's a pretty clean and simple staff policy, that I have
> discussed with Philippe in the past.
>
> This might be harder to do in offline work, but there should be some
> attempt at demarcation like on-wiki. Their volunteer work and standing will
> never go away, no one remotely suggested that. Just that, like on-wiki,
> there should be better communication about which is which, nothing more.
>
> On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 4:46 PM, Srikanth Ramakrishnan <
> parakara.gh...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Errm Theo,
>> Do remember that the India TRUST is DIFFERENT form the Chapter. It is
>> from the WMF side and has absolutely NO relation with the Chapter.
>
>
> lol I know Srikanth. My question was about its current legal status. Is it
> independent? different or same as the chapter?
>
> Regards
> Theo
>
>
>
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Srikanth Ramakrishnan.
Wikipedia Coimbatore Meetup on February 12th.
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Meetup/Coimbatore
Aliens invaded Tamil Nadu, left their Spacship and now it is a Toll Plaza.
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:IVRCL-Vijayamangalam-Toll-Plaza.JPG
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Featured Wikimedian on the main page of the Chapter Web Portal

2012-03-07 Thread Srikanth Ramakrishnan 
Yes,
this needs to be looked into.
It acts as inspiration for someone to have their name up on the front page.


On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 4:09 PM, Abhiram C  wrote:

> Dear Members,
>
> I would like to inform the Wikimedia India Chapter and its
> volunteers/workers that the Featured Wikimedian for the last 2 months have
> not been updated as such. I hope those who maintain the portal will look
> into the matter soon enough not to be obsolete.
>
> --
> Thanks & Regards,
> Abhiram C (User: sbblr0803)
>
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-- 
Regards,
Srikanth Ramakrishnan.
Wikipedia Coimbatore Meetup on February 12th.
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Meetup/Coimbatore
Aliens invaded Tamil Nadu, left their Spacship and now it is a Toll Plaza.
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:IVRCL-Vijayamangalam-Toll-Plaza.JPG
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] India Program: Community Monthly Report: Feb 2012

2012-03-07 Thread Hisham 


On Mar 7, 2012, at 1:38 PM, Pradeep Mohandas wrote:

> 
> In retrospect, I also understand the need for seperating the Foundation 
> activities as well. I think it is best to either go for total seperation of 
> community, chapter and Office or have general statements.

The work that India Program is doing is integrally embedded in community 
building.  This means we work directly with interested community members across 
the world and with the Chapter.   I don't think a total separation is either 
practical or advisable.  We should obviously avoid taking the option of 
"general statements" - and we need to find a suitable island in between.

hisham

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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] India Program: Community Monthly Report: Feb 2012

2012-03-07 Thread Hisham 


On Mar 7, 2012, at 1:46 PM, Anirudh Bhati wrote:

> 
> 
> We will discuss overlapping roles and notify the community about our 
> decision.  
> 

Who is we?  

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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] India Program: Community Monthly Report: Feb 2012

2012-03-07 Thread Anirudh Bhati 
On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 4:49 PM, Hisham  wrote:

>
>
> On Mar 7, 2012, at 1:11 PM, Anirudh Bhati wrote:
>
> On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 12:42 PM, Hisham  wrote:
>
>>
>> Nothing is conducted solely by India Program - and hence I said
>> "supported."  Everything is conducted by the community - sometimes under
>> the aegis of the Chapter and sometimes independently.  The support that we
>> have provided varies - from getting the actual event fixed up to providing
>> presentation material to interested community members to participating in
>> these events.
>>
>
> Can this be clearly specified in the report?  That is more helpful than
> simply "supported".  For instance, when you say "Supported the community
> to get a venue in Guwahati University", it would help us understand more if
> you could tell us how.
>
>
> Please refer this 
> mail
>

Thanks for the link, Hisham.  Can you please have you staff include a
summary along with the appropriate links?  Thanks.


> On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 12:45 PM, CherianTinu Abraham <
> tinucher...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi Pranav,
>> In India, it is extremely difficult to hairline separate who has done
>> which event. - Chapter, Community and WMF India Programs.
>>
>
> I agree it's not possible to do that, but it is entirely possible to list
> out the work done in specific.  This enhances our accountability and
> transparency towards the community.
>
>
>> Let us take the case of the Trichy event, the request came to a community
>> member Rsrikanth to the chapter. Nitika was actively involved along with me
>> and Naveen. The chapter signed the MoU and supplied some goodies. Nitika
>> was actively involved in coaching Sohan, a chapter member and Rsrikanth.
>> One must not also forget that both Hisham & Nitika are also chapter
>> members.
>
>
> Fact: Nitika is a paid employee of the WMF India Programs and is not a
> chapter/community volunteer.
>
>
> Anyone who contributes - in whatever manner - is a community member.  All
> of us in the India Program team have the freedom to do whatever we want to
> in our free time.  fyi: all of us contribute in our personal, voluntary
> capacity as well as work for the movement in our official capacity.  fyi:
> it's not part of the job description.
>

Yes, no one has disputed community membership.  But when an employee/paid
contractor edits during work hours or within the purview of their
contractual agreement with the Foundation, that is paid and not volunteer
work.  This is not something I enjoy pointing out over and over again, but
perhaps you should try and see where I am coming from.


>
>> Another event in Chennai (Jaya eng college) , where Subha led, his travel
>> expenses was reimbursed by the Chapter, Subha is a Chapter SIG Chair .. The
>> event is supported by Hisham & Nitika too. Subha is also an India Programs
>> executive.
>>
>
> Fact:  Subhashish, former volunteer, and now paid consultant with India
> Programs.
>
>
> Much water has flown beneath this bridge, but I am disappointed with the
> suggestion that someone becomes a "former" volunteer just because they join
> the India Program team.  See earlier point.
>

I think you will find that I have clarified myself above, if you care to
read.  Even then, a paid consultant spending their free time doing
volunteer work can still not be equated with a regular volunteer
contributor.  This is not a condemnation, but a statement of fact.


>
>
>
>>
>> I actively organize Bangalore Meetups and support several others ..
>> Should I be worrying whether I am doing as a chapter member, board member
>> or a community member?
>>
>
> By a matter of principle, chapter and community volunteers are just...
> volunteers.  Paid consultants are hired to executive specific programs, and
> hence the results of their work and reports should be presented with
> clarity.  Simply "supporting" something does not clarify the extent of
> their involvement.
>
>
> The work that we are doing is actually supporting communities.  The
> healthiest way of us doing our jobs is to work closely (and in most cases,
> individually with community members) and help them in various ways - and
> make sure that the individual community members are front and centre of the
> initiative - as is right.  As in the mail I shared earlier on Guwahati,  or
> indeed in the "Nature of Support column on this 
> page,
> we document them and share them through wider channels.  In other cases,
> they are discussed on village pumps or individual talk pages or on chats or
> whatever manner that the respective community member feels most comfortable
> - and we leave it at that.  A lot of our community members do not have the
> experience and confidence to engage publicly or take initiatives.  We will
> continue to work quietly with them.
>
> The purpose behind my monthly newsletter is

[Wikimediaindia-l] New Lohit fonts - Please test

2012-03-07 Thread Gerard Meijssen 
Hoi,
At translatewiki.net we installed the latest release of the Lohit fonts
today. Among several improvements there are two things that stand out.
There are now two new fonts specific for Devanagari and they support
Marathi and Nepali. As you know certain characters are written differently
when used for these languages.

The Lohit Devanagari font does allow for the use of a local override but
this requires a browser who deals with this properly and a source where the
meta data explicitly states that the language is either Marathi or Nepali.
By providing a font that is hard wired to show the variations for Marathi
or Nepali a solution is provided that will always work.

Our plan is to test the new Lohit fonts on translatewiki.net this week and
have them go into production on Monday on all the WMF wikis with WebFonts
support.

Please test the Lohit fonts in your script and let us know as soon as
possible when there are any issues.
Thanks,
Gerard

http://ultimategerardm.blogspot.com/2012/03/lohit-fonts-progress-to-release-251.html
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] India Program: Community Monthly Report: Feb 2012

2012-03-07 Thread CherianTinu Abraham 
Theo,

*" Err... I have no idea who or what implied that. "*

I am referring to your previous full time and paid work for the Wikimedia
Foundation 2010-2011
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_contractors#Individuals
*
" I don't think anyone said anything to that effect so far. "*

Look at the similar comments from Anirudh on this thread related to people
like Shiju and Subhashish.

As I have clearly explained earlier, such a segregation is only possible in
virtual user accounts, not in real world action. If you want know, come do
the donkey work !

-TC





On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 4:48 PM, Theo10011  wrote:

> On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 4:38 PM, CherianTinu Abraham  > wrote:
>
>> You are a long time community member, you were working as Wikimedia
>> Foundation paid contractor for some time, does that mean all the volunteer
>> work you would have done before/after or during being a full time and paid
>> staff of Foundation cease to have any value ?
>>
>
> Err... I have no idea who or what implied that. I don't think anyone said
> anything to that effect so far. Just said volunteer and staff work is
> separate, not that it goes away or one negates the other. I completely
> agreed with Ashwin on the need for better demarcation.
>
> Here's some example-
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Theo_(WMF)   - my old contractor
> account- read the disclaimer
>
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=User%3ATheo10011&diff=2165185&oldid=2156716
> - my volunteer account at the time- read the disclaimer/announcement
>
> Shijus's staff account -http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Shiju  and
> volunteer account -  http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Shijualex
> Subha's staff account http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Subha_WMF  and
> volunteer accoun t-  http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Psubhashish
>
> They all have disclaimers, and explanation that this work is separate from
> staff work. It's a pretty clean and simple staff policy, that I have
> discussed with Philippe in the past.
>
> This might be harder to do in offline work, but there should be some
> attempt at demarcation like on-wiki. Their volunteer work and standing will
> never go away, no one remotely suggested that. Just that, like on-wiki,
> there should be better communication about which is which, nothing more.
>
> On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 4:46 PM, Srikanth Ramakrishnan <
> parakara.gh...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Errm Theo,
>> Do remember that the India TRUST is DIFFERENT form the Chapter. It is
>> from the WMF side and has absolutely NO relation with the Chapter.
>
>
> lol I know Srikanth. My question was about its current legal status. Is it
> independent? different or same as the chapter?
>
> Regards
> Theo
>
>
>
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] India Program: Community Monthly Report: Feb 2012

2012-03-07 Thread Tinu Cherian 
Dear Anirudh,
Can you elaborate as to what you meant by "we" ?

-TC

On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 5:00 PM, Hisham  wrote:

>
>
> On Mar 7, 2012, at 1:46 PM, Anirudh Bhati wrote:
>
>
>
> We will discuss overlapping roles and notify the community about our
> decision.
>
>
> Who is we?
>
> hisham
>
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] India Program: Community Monthly Report: Feb 2012

2012-03-07 Thread Ashwin Baindur 
Tinu, respectfully, your argument for inability to segregate roles does not
hold water.

In the mean, cold harsh world of legalese, things like demarcation of
roles, disclosures, incompatibility of holding conflicting appointments,
having code of ethics are all normal and these instruments in fact are
found inadequate and there is now clamour for more oversight not less.

We have to have a code of ethics for the WMF employee - they must remain
true to their salt to the organisation which pays them. While it is nice
that good people like Shiju are always as helpful as they were as community
volunteers, the simple fact is that there has been a change of role. We see
them as paid employees which is a fact. We do not mean that as a derogatory
term but that is what they chose to be - paid. So volunteer activities must
only be done in a way that does not conflict with their employer. There is
a great obligation for them to do this. They cannot and should not act as
community because it means the setting up of COI with their employer. They
owe it to their employer. They cannot hunt with the hare and run with the
hounds all at once.

The chapter has volunteer teams - like communication etc. I'm sure it is
okay and desirable for Noopur, Shiju etc to be part of them and assuming
good faith, I'm sure they are not intending any wrong thing. But COI can
easily arise if one is not painstakingly correct and careful. For that
reason, I suggest that the WMF employees on any team be demarcated as
WMF-IP representatives - so that there is a clear-cut understanding of who
is a volunteer and who is not and those who are not volunteers are expected
to be suitably circumspect in their participation when policy is sought to
formed by discussion in the community - that is the price they have to pay
for choosing a paid job from WMF.

The way I see it, some people say Chapter is independent from WMF but that
can only happen if their funding is independent. Whoever pays the piper
chooses the tune. WMF is gracious not to interfere much with Chapter, I
assume they are not interfering at all, but that is because of their
goodness or choice. Should WMF become dictatorial, Chapter has to kowtow or
face the consequences. So like it or not, chapter/WMF are related
organisations which are in the same field with objectives of their own. COI
will arise, you cant prevent it, only resolve it in good ways by having
good policy, good communication and sensible interaction.

We have enough "turbulence" in the system already. Questions like cost
effectiveness of WMF driven activities as compared to that of volunteer led
activities are taken as personal attacks by one side and as righteous
crusades by the other. IEP 2 will soon be open us - heaven forbid! The
Global South program is just gaining momentum and the amount of attention,
money, effort being put into India programs is going to increase not
reduce. The coming about of the Trust is going to complicate issues - I
cant even think how to handle that time-bomb! At the same time, the demand
is growing; more editors are volunteering. Each Wikipedia is inflating,
some explosively, others with bits and spurts,some are sill-born.

In such a backdrop, more prudence and probity are the need of the hour.
More transparency, not more laissez faire. More care, not more "chalta hai".

We have to make it our business to be above board in whatever we do. Imho
COI is by far the easiest to solve - there are greater challenges out there
for us to tackle  - things which really matter, like the hundreds of
thousands of school children waiting for Offline Wikipedia for Indian
Schools!

Warm regards,

Ashwin Baindur
--


On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 4:38 PM, CherianTinu Abraham
wrote:

> And to add
>
> "That is why they have two accounts and rather large disclaimers on their
> user pages, demarcating this very difference".
>
> This is only possible in virtual worlds, while editing Wikipedia or
> writing mails. Not in real life work !
>
> I cannot have one face or voice when I am acting as board member of the
> chapter and another when I am helping the community. Many of us, live and
> breathe Wikimedia, making it difficult to separate on which capacity each
> of our action is.
>
> You are a long time community member, you were working as Wikimedia
> Foundation paid contractor for some time, does that mean all the volunteer
> work you would have done before/after or during being a full time and paid
> staff of Foundation cease to have any value ?
>
> -TC
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 4:14 PM, CherianTinu Abraham  > wrote:
>
>> If it matters, if you have read the MoA or the Chapters agreement of the
>> Wikimedia India Chapter or most of the chapters, the Foundation and
>> Chapters are independent organizations. Wikimedia Foundation is NOT a
>> parent organization of the Wikimedia India Chapter.
>>
>> IMHO, It would be only a conflict of interest if I am both a paid
>> e

Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] India Program: Community Monthly Report: Feb 2012

2012-03-07 Thread Anirudh Bhati 
On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 5:24 PM, CherianTinu Abraham
wrote:

> Theo,
>
> *" Err... I have no idea who or what implied that. "*
>
> I am referring to your previous full time and paid work for the Wikimedia
> Foundation 2010-2011
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_contractors#Individuals
>
> *
> " I don't think anyone said anything to that effect so far. "*
>
> Look at the similar comments from Anirudh on this thread related to people
> like Shiju and Subhashish.
>
>
"does that mean all the volunteer work you would have done before/after or
during being a full time and paid staff of Foundation cease to have any
value ?"

When did I say their work is not valued?  The employees of the WMF do
valuable work, they are not volunteers.  Is saying this a devaluation of
their work?  Please be careful when attributing claims such as these.
 Thanks.

On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 5:29 PM, Tinu Cherian 
 wrote:

> Dear Anirudh,
> Can you elaborate as to what you meant by "we" ?


My statement: "We will discuss overlapping roles and notify the community
about our decision."

I referred to "we" as in the Executive Committee of the WMIN.  Please note
that I did not express an opinion on the behalf of the EC, I simply said
that this will be discussed.


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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] India Program: Community Monthly Report: Feb 2012

2012-03-07 Thread Theo10011 
On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 5:24 PM, CherianTinu Abraham
wrote:

> Theo,
>
> *" Err... I have no idea who or what implied that. "*
>

On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 4:38 PM, CherianTinu Abraham 
 wrote:

> You are a long time community member, you were working as Wikimedia
> Foundation paid contractor for some time, does that mean all the volunteer
> work you would have done before/after or during being a full time and paid
> staff of Foundation cease to have any value ?


This is what I was referring to, Implying that "the volunteer work you
would have done before/after or during being a full time and paid staff of
Foundation cease to have any value". I really don't see a single mention
that shiju or anyone's work "ceases to have value". He was, is, and will be
a well respected community member. I have said that in the first thread.
Currently, he is an employee, and justly, official reports from WMF should
reflect the work he does as an employee, that is all.


> I am referring to your previous full time and paid work for the Wikimedia
> Foundation 2010-2011
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_contractors#Individuals


Yes thank you. I don't think I have ever denied being a
contractor.anywhere.(BTW that page is only for people who declare their
contract-work, there is large majority who is not there.) I know you like
to point to it, but you and shiju also received a grant for a project at
the same time, does you insinuation follow? should I add a link to it every
time discussions like this come up, or is it enough to just assume good
faith with your fellow community member? I have been trying for my part.

*
> " I don't think anyone said anything to that effect so far. "*
>
> Look at the similar comments from Anirudh on this thread related to people
> like Shiju and Subhashish.
>

I have read them at least a dozen time. I can't see the insinuation you are
extracting from it. It only says to carry the same demarcation well
respected and followed on-wiki, nothing more. If you think that it's not
important, you should ask WMF to change staff policy, he was suggesting
applying the same internal standards.


>
> As I have clearly explained earlier, such a segregation is only possible
> in virtual user accounts, not in real world action. If you want know, come
> do the donkey work !
>

This might be true and I said it is hard to do, but some attempt should be
made to try, at least. I do my own type of volunteer work, I don't question
yours, please don't question mine.

Again, Ashwin puts it eloquently, "more prudence and probity are the need
of the hour. More transparency, not more laissez faire." - I completely
agree.

Regards
Theo
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] India Program: Community Monthly Report: Feb 2012

2012-03-07 Thread Pradeep Mohandas 
hi,

I also think a similar demarcation is needed in chapter and community
functions. Chapter leadership should also not be imposed on the
community. I am not saying this is happening, just that such
demarcation will help.

I hope the Chapter discusses this overlap as well.

Pradeep
Handheld

On 07/03/2012, Ashwin Baindur  wrote:
> Tinu, respectfully, your argument for inability to segregate roles does not
> hold water.
>
> In the mean, cold harsh world of legalese, things like demarcation of
> roles, disclosures, incompatibility of holding conflicting appointments,
> having code of ethics are all normal and these instruments in fact are
> found inadequate and there is now clamour for more oversight not less.
>
> We have to have a code of ethics for the WMF employee - they must remain
> true to their salt to the organisation which pays them. While it is nice
> that good people like Shiju are always as helpful as they were as community
> volunteers, the simple fact is that there has been a change of role. We see
> them as paid employees which is a fact. We do not mean that as a derogatory
> term but that is what they chose to be - paid. So volunteer activities must
> only be done in a way that does not conflict with their employer. There is
> a great obligation for them to do this. They cannot and should not act as
> community because it means the setting up of COI with their employer. They
> owe it to their employer. They cannot hunt with the hare and run with the
> hounds all at once.
>
> The chapter has volunteer teams - like communication etc. I'm sure it is
> okay and desirable for Noopur, Shiju etc to be part of them and assuming
> good faith, I'm sure they are not intending any wrong thing. But COI can
> easily arise if one is not painstakingly correct and careful. For that
> reason, I suggest that the WMF employees on any team be demarcated as
> WMF-IP representatives - so that there is a clear-cut understanding of who
> is a volunteer and who is not and those who are not volunteers are expected
> to be suitably circumspect in their participation when policy is sought to
> formed by discussion in the community - that is the price they have to pay
> for choosing a paid job from WMF.
>
> The way I see it, some people say Chapter is independent from WMF but that
> can only happen if their funding is independent. Whoever pays the piper
> chooses the tune. WMF is gracious not to interfere much with Chapter, I
> assume they are not interfering at all, but that is because of their
> goodness or choice. Should WMF become dictatorial, Chapter has to kowtow or
> face the consequences. So like it or not, chapter/WMF are related
> organisations which are in the same field with objectives of their own. COI
> will arise, you cant prevent it, only resolve it in good ways by having
> good policy, good communication and sensible interaction.
>
> We have enough "turbulence" in the system already. Questions like cost
> effectiveness of WMF driven activities as compared to that of volunteer led
> activities are taken as personal attacks by one side and as righteous
> crusades by the other. IEP 2 will soon be open us - heaven forbid! The
> Global South program is just gaining momentum and the amount of attention,
> money, effort being put into India programs is going to increase not
> reduce. The coming about of the Trust is going to complicate issues - I
> cant even think how to handle that time-bomb! At the same time, the demand
> is growing; more editors are volunteering. Each Wikipedia is inflating,
> some explosively, others with bits and spurts,some are sill-born.
>
> In such a backdrop, more prudence and probity are the need of the hour.
> More transparency, not more laissez faire. More care, not more "chalta hai".
>
> We have to make it our business to be above board in whatever we do. Imho
> COI is by far the easiest to solve - there are greater challenges out there
> for us to tackle  - things which really matter, like the hundreds of
> thousands of school children waiting for Offline Wikipedia for Indian
> Schools!
>
> Warm regards,
>
> Ashwin Baindur
> --
>
>
> On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 4:38 PM, CherianTinu Abraham
> wrote:
>
>> And to add
>>
>> "That is why they have two accounts and rather large disclaimers on their
>> user pages, demarcating this very difference".
>>
>> This is only possible in virtual worlds, while editing Wikipedia or
>> writing mails. Not in real life work !
>>
>> I cannot have one face or voice when I am acting as board member of the
>> chapter and another when I am helping the community. Many of us, live and
>> breathe Wikimedia, making it difficult to separate on which capacity each
>> of our action is.
>>
>> You are a long time community member, you were working as Wikimedia
>> Foundation paid contractor for some time, does that mean all the volunteer
>> work you would have done before/after or during being a full time and paid
>> st

Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] India Program: Community Monthly Report: Feb 2012

2012-03-07 Thread Ashwin Baindur 
Right on, Pradeep!

Hence my detailed views on my own responsibility as WikiProject India lead.

Warm regards,

Ashwin Baindur
--


On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 5:43 PM, Pradeep Mohandas  wrote:

> hi,
>
> I also think a similar demarcation is needed in chapter and community
> functions. Chapter leadership should also not be imposed on the
> community. I am not saying this is happening, just that such
> demarcation will help.
>
> I hope the Chapter discusses this overlap as well.
>
> Pradeep
> Handheld
>
> On 07/03/2012, Ashwin Baindur  wrote:
> > Tinu, respectfully, your argument for inability to segregate roles does
> not
> > hold water.
> >
> > In the mean, cold harsh world of legalese, things like demarcation of
> > roles, disclosures, incompatibility of holding conflicting appointments,
> > having code of ethics are all normal and these instruments in fact are
> > found inadequate and there is now clamour for more oversight not less.
> >
> > We have to have a code of ethics for the WMF employee - they must remain
> > true to their salt to the organisation which pays them. While it is nice
> > that good people like Shiju are always as helpful as they were as
> community
> > volunteers, the simple fact is that there has been a change of role. We
> see
> > them as paid employees which is a fact. We do not mean that as a
> derogatory
> > term but that is what they chose to be - paid. So volunteer activities
> must
> > only be done in a way that does not conflict with their employer. There
> is
> > a great obligation for them to do this. They cannot and should not act as
> > community because it means the setting up of COI with their employer.
> They
> > owe it to their employer. They cannot hunt with the hare and run with the
> > hounds all at once.
> >
> > The chapter has volunteer teams - like communication etc. I'm sure it is
> > okay and desirable for Noopur, Shiju etc to be part of them and assuming
> > good faith, I'm sure they are not intending any wrong thing. But COI can
> > easily arise if one is not painstakingly correct and careful. For that
> > reason, I suggest that the WMF employees on any team be demarcated as
> > WMF-IP representatives - so that there is a clear-cut understanding of
> who
> > is a volunteer and who is not and those who are not volunteers are
> expected
> > to be suitably circumspect in their participation when policy is sought
> to
> > formed by discussion in the community - that is the price they have to
> pay
> > for choosing a paid job from WMF.
> >
> > The way I see it, some people say Chapter is independent from WMF but
> that
> > can only happen if their funding is independent. Whoever pays the piper
> > chooses the tune. WMF is gracious not to interfere much with Chapter, I
> > assume they are not interfering at all, but that is because of their
> > goodness or choice. Should WMF become dictatorial, Chapter has to kowtow
> or
> > face the consequences. So like it or not, chapter/WMF are related
> > organisations which are in the same field with objectives of their own.
> COI
> > will arise, you cant prevent it, only resolve it in good ways by having
> > good policy, good communication and sensible interaction.
> >
> > We have enough "turbulence" in the system already. Questions like cost
> > effectiveness of WMF driven activities as compared to that of volunteer
> led
> > activities are taken as personal attacks by one side and as righteous
> > crusades by the other. IEP 2 will soon be open us - heaven forbid! The
> > Global South program is just gaining momentum and the amount of
> attention,
> > money, effort being put into India programs is going to increase not
> > reduce. The coming about of the Trust is going to complicate issues - I
> > cant even think how to handle that time-bomb! At the same time, the
> demand
> > is growing; more editors are volunteering. Each Wikipedia is inflating,
> > some explosively, others with bits and spurts,some are sill-born.
> >
> > In such a backdrop, more prudence and probity are the need of the hour.
> > More transparency, not more laissez faire. More care, not more "chalta
> hai".
> >
> > We have to make it our business to be above board in whatever we do. Imho
> > COI is by far the easiest to solve - there are greater challenges out
> there
> > for us to tackle  - things which really matter, like the hundreds of
> > thousands of school children waiting for Offline Wikipedia for Indian
> > Schools!
> >
> > Warm regards,
> >
> > Ashwin Baindur
> > --
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 4:38 PM, CherianTinu Abraham
> > wrote:
> >
> >> And to add
> >>
> >> "That is why they have two accounts and rather large disclaimers on
> their
> >> user pages, demarcating this very difference".
> >>
> >> This is only possible in virtual worlds, while editing Wikipedia or
> >> writing mails. Not in real life work !
> >>
> >> I cannot have one fa

Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] India Program: Community Monthly Report: Feb 2012

2012-03-07 Thread Srikanth Lakshmanan 
On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 15:45, Anirudh Bhati  wrote:

> Also, as long as I am not signing off with my official credentials at the
> end of the email, I am only expressing personal opinion.  For instance, I
> wouldn't claim that Shiju's indisposition towards me is the official stance
> of his employer.
>

Tip for the staff/chapter folks, (to those who wish to hear)

Can you subscribe to the list with official IDs (with no mail option) and
configure mail clients (Gmail has a nifty option) and send mails
accordingly? For instance, Tinu / Anirudh need not repeat they are replying
in personal note always if they chose to reply from wikimedia.in email IDs
for their statements as chapter representatives. In other cases it will be
by-default considered as personal/voluntary statements, after all this list
is for volunteers/community!.

HTH.

-- 
Regards
Srikanth.L
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] India Program: Community Monthly Report: Feb 2012

2012-03-07 Thread Tinu Cherian 
*
*Dear Anirudh,*

"**Also, as long as I am not signing off with my official credentials at
the end of the email, I am only expressing personal opinion. "*
*"We will discuss overlapping roles and notify the community about our
decision."*
*"I referred to "we" as in the Executive Committee of the WMIN.  Please
note that I did not express an opinion on the behalf of the EC, I simply
said that this will be discussed." *

If you are expressing your view as a Chapter Board Member, please state so.
( The rest cannot differentiate when you are replying from your personal
id).  I wish you had stated instead "I will discuss this with the rest of
the EC or Chapter members".

Having said that, the chapter doesn't impose our decision on the community
or the India Programs, Although I personally see Chapter as a subset of the
larger community.

Regards
Tinu Cherian




On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 5:34 PM, Anirudh Bhati  wrote:

> On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 5:24 PM, CherianTinu Abraham  > wrote:
>
>> Theo,
>>
>> *" Err... I have no idea who or what implied that. "*
>>
>> I am referring to your previous full time and paid work for the Wikimedia
>> Foundation 2010-2011
>>
>> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_contractors#Individuals
>>
>> *
>> " I don't think anyone said anything to that effect so far. "*
>>
>> Look at the similar comments from Anirudh on this thread related to
>> people like Shiju and Subhashish.
>>
>>
> "does that mean all the volunteer work you would have done before/after
> or during being a full time and paid staff of Foundation cease to have any
> value ?"
>
> When did I say their work is not valued?  The employees of the WMF do
> valuable work, they are not volunteers.  Is saying this a devaluation of
> their work?  Please be careful when attributing claims such as these.
>  Thanks.
>
> On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 5:29 PM, Tinu Cherian 
>  wrote:
>
> Dear Anirudh,
>> Can you elaborate as to what you meant by "we" ?
>
>
> My statement: "We will discuss overlapping roles and notify the community
> about our decision."
>
> I referred to "we" as in the Executive Committee of the WMIN.  Please note
> that I did not express an opinion on the behalf of the EC, I simply said
> that this will be discussed.
>
>
>> ___
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>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
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>>
>
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] India Program: Community Monthly Report: Feb 2012

2012-03-07 Thread Anirudh Bhati 
On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 6:18 PM, Tinu Cherian wrote:

> *
> *Dear Anirudh,*
>
> "**Also, as long as I am not signing off with my official credentials at
> the end of the email, I am only expressing personal opinion. "*
>
> *"We will discuss overlapping roles and notify the community about our
> decision."*
> *"I referred to "we" as in the Executive Committee of the WMIN.  Please
> note that I did not express an opinion on the behalf of the EC, I simply
> said that this will be discussed." *
>
> If you are expressing your view as a Chapter Board Member, please state
> so. ( The rest cannot differentiate when you are replying from your
> personal id).  I wish you had stated instead "I will discuss this with the
> rest of the EC or Chapter members".
>
> Having said that, the chapter doesn't impose our decision on the community
> or the India Programs, Although I personally see Chapter as a subset of the
> larger community.
>

I did not express an opinion or a view.  Please look up the dictionary
definition.  I think we have had enough distractions from the main issue,
so let's burn the straw-man.

anirudh


On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 5:34 PM, Anirudh Bhati  wrote:

> On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 5:24 PM, CherianTinu Abraham  > wrote:
>
>> Theo,
>>
>> *" Err... I have no idea who or what implied that. "*
>>
>> I am referring to your previous full time and paid work for the Wikimedia
>> Foundation 2010-2011
>>
>> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_contractors#Individuals
>>
>> *
>> " I don't think anyone said anything to that effect so far. "*
>>
>> Look at the similar comments from Anirudh on this thread related to
>> people like Shiju and Subhashish.
>>
>>
> "does that mean all the volunteer work you would have done before/after
> or during being a full time and paid staff of Foundation cease to have any
> value ?"
>
> When did I say their work is not valued?  The employees of the WMF do
> valuable work, they are not volunteers.  Is saying this a devaluation of
> their work?  Please be careful when attributing claims such as these.
>  Thanks.
>
> On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 5:29 PM, Tinu Cherian 
>  wrote:
>
> Dear Anirudh,
>> Can you elaborate as to what you meant by "we" ?
>
>
> My statement: "We will discuss overlapping roles and notify the community
> about our decision."
>
> I referred to "we" as in the Executive Committee of the WMIN.  Please note
> that I did not express an opinion on the behalf of the EC, I simply said
> that this will be discussed.
>
>
>> ___
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>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
>>
>>
>
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>

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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] India Program: Community Monthly Report: Feb 2012

2012-03-07 Thread Subhashish Panigrahi 
*57 mails to define the effort, for me be it voluntary/paid, effort for a
good cause is priceless, and the precious time everyone wasted could have
been utilized (not to be considered as a free gyan!) for something
constructive rather than this defensing act which will result just nothing,
the only thing I enjoyed is Achal's assessment!

*The subject says "Community monthly report"; it's not a place to define
who has taken the initiative and what is the exact percentage of support
foundation/chapter has provided to the community, it's rather a brief note
of what has happened in the community engagement activities,
foundation/chapter obviously has supported it. But, it's important to
access the outcome than to measure how much support in which way was
provided by foundation/chapter.

On 7 March 2012 18:18, Tinu Cherian  wrote:

> *
> *Dear Anirudh,*
>
> "**Also, as long as I am not signing off with my official credentials at
> the end of the email, I am only expressing personal opinion. "*
>
> *"We will discuss overlapping roles and notify the community about our
> decision."*
> *"I referred to "we" as in the Executive Committee of the WMIN.  Please
> note that I did not express an opinion on the behalf of the EC, I simply
> said that this will be discussed." *
>
> If you are expressing your view as a Chapter Board Member, please state
> so. ( The rest cannot differentiate when you are replying from your
> personal id).  I wish you had stated instead "I will discuss this with the
> rest of the EC or Chapter members".
>
> Having said that, the chapter doesn't impose our decision on the community
> or the India Programs, Although I personally see Chapter as a subset of the
> larger community.
>
> Regards
> Tinu Cherian
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 5:34 PM, Anirudh Bhati wrote:
>
>> On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 5:24 PM, CherianTinu Abraham <
>> tinucher...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Theo,
>>>
>>> *" Err... I have no idea who or what implied that. "*
>>>
>>> I am referring to your previous full time and paid work for the
>>> Wikimedia Foundation 2010-2011
>>>
>>> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_contractors#Individuals
>>>
>>> *
>>> " I don't think anyone said anything to that effect so far. "*
>>>
>>> Look at the similar comments from Anirudh on this thread related to
>>> people like Shiju and Subhashish.
>>>
>>>
>> "does that mean all the volunteer work you would have done before/after
>> or during being a full time and paid staff of Foundation cease to have any
>> value ?"
>>
>> When did I say their work is not valued?  The employees of the WMF do
>> valuable work, they are not volunteers.  Is saying this a devaluation of
>> their work?  Please be careful when attributing claims such as these.
>>  Thanks.
>>
>> On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 5:29 PM, Tinu Cherian 
>>  wrote:
>>
>> Dear Anirudh,
>>> Can you elaborate as to what you meant by "we" ?
>>
>>
>> My statement: "We will discuss overlapping roles and notify the community
>> about our decision."
>>
>> I referred to "we" as in the Executive Committee of the WMIN.  Please
>> note that I did not express an opinion on the behalf of the EC, I simply
>> said that this will be discussed.
>>
>>
>>> ___
>>> Wikimediaindia-l mailing list
>>> Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
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>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
>>>
>>>
>>
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>
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[Wikimediaindia-l] India Program: Community Update: India Program Emphasis for March 2012

2012-03-07 Thread Hisham 
I'm starting a monthly note on what the India Program team will be focussing on 
at the start of every month.  March 2012 is posted here.  I hope you find it 
useful.  Please do add comments on the discussion page, or on this mail trail, 
or offlist to me.

Many thanks.

hisham

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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Sanskrit, scripts and Wikisource

2012-03-07 Thread Gerard Meijssen 
Hoi,
Reading back I realised that I did not answer your question really. What
you are asking for is the possibility to transliterate a text into a
specific script.This is something that needs development. At the Silpa
website there is functionality that does some initial transliteration. It
however needs more work and when the software has been tried and tested it
still needs to be implemented in MediaWiki.

So the answer is: please help us code this functionality :)
Thanks,
 Gerard

http://silpa.org.in/Transliterate

On 5 March 2012 17:33, praveenp  wrote:

> Hi, Is it possible to select other scripts other than devnagiri or
> brahmi on user level? I know some sanskrit but i'm more comfortable
> with malayalam script :-). Such an option will be an added advantage
> for many people like me. I've seen many   sanskrit texts (usually with
> malayalam translation or detailing) using malayalam script. So i hope
> nothing wrong in it.
>
> --
> With love
> Praveen :talk<
> http://ml.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Praveenp>
>
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[Wikimediaindia-l] Reducing the number of mails

2012-03-07 Thread Yann Forget 
Hello,

I find that the number of mails I receive from mailings about India
and Wikimedia is a bit excessive. It would be be easy to reduce it
significantly by not cross-posting every announcements, and by not
sending congratulations to the list, but to the person concerned.

Thanks,

Yann

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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Reducing the number of mails

2012-03-07 Thread Srikanth Lakshmanan 
On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 19:10, Yann Forget  wrote:

> Hello,
>
> I find that the number of mails I receive from mailings about India
> and Wikimedia is a bit excessive. It would be be easy to reduce it
> significantly by not cross-posting every announcements, and by not
> sending congratulations to the list, but to the person concerned.
>

Thanks Yann for bringing this up.

I have updated list guidelines[1] with note on the individual mails. I am
not sure about cross-posting, since that might continue to happen for the
sake of informing all. You could consider subscribing into digest mode if
required :)

All,

IIRC, The mailing list guidelines page was created when there was
some ruckus on the list last time. Can we all make a conscious effort to
put across whats acceptable on the list and whats not, there and come
reach consensus, so there everyone can follow them which will save lot of
time? Mailman also has a feature to post a reminder every month and we
could use it, so newbies will also know the list guidelines.

[1] http://wiki.wikimedia.in/MailingList_Guidelines

-- 
Regards
Srikanth.L
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Reducing the number of mails

2012-03-07 Thread Hari Prasad Nadig 
On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 7:10 PM, Yann Forget  wrote:

> Hello,
>
> I find that the number of mails I receive from mailings about India
> and Wikimedia is a bit excessive. It would be be easy to reduce it
> significantly by not cross-posting every announcements, and by not
> sending congratulations to the list, but to the person concerned.
>

I second that.

Thanks for bringing this up!

-- 
Hari Prasad Nadig
http://hpnadig.net
http://twitter.com/hpnadig
http://flickr.com/hpnadig
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] India Program: Community Monthly Report: Feb 2012

2012-03-07 Thread Hari Prasad Nadig 
On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 3:09 PM, Shiju Alex wrote:

> Shiju, you and Subhashish have been volunteers but now you are paid
>> contractors hired by the Foundation.  Any work you do within the purview of
>> your contractual relationship with the Foundation will be work as a paid
>> contractor and cannot be deemed to be the same as a volunteer. You can
>> continue being volunteers once your contractual assignment is complete.  Is
>> that so difficult to understand?
>>
>
> You are totally wrong. That is the difference between your involvement
> with wikimedia movement and mine. My involvement with wikimedia movement
> will be there *even if this job is not there*. So just DO NOT compare
> your wikimedia contribution with mine. As a volunteer I will decide which
> all projects I need to work. Which means I still  continue to contribute to
> various wiki projects as a volunteer. I do not want your permission for
> that. Who had given you the authority to expel or exclude me from Wikimedia
> community?
>



> Let me ask you a basic question. Are you with wikimedia movement for
> helping it or for screwing it up. I was going through the replies and your
> wiki contributions over the past few months. What is your intention in
> being with Wikimedia movement in India.
>

Doesn't sound all that good, does it? Coming from *Shiju*, it does spring a
bit of surprise. Is this the ramification of volunteer turning into a
Wikimedia employee or contractor?

I feel that this personal attack was unwarranted, does not serve any good
purpose, and is rude. An apology is due, counting that people employed by
the 'India program trust' hold truly responsible posts.

The question about 'who's done what? or who's doing what?' is very
important in the present scenario as the Wikimedia India Programs trust is
well funded, has full time phenomenally well paid operatives who's primary
focus is supposed to '*Support the community to further Movement objectives*'.
Being rude or evading detailed reports isn't helping this in any way.

And just saying "we supported" isn't going to help either. Explaining the
trust's role in each of the listed activities would surely help people from
this country when they're planning to donate during the next fundraiser as
well. When we get to see announcements doled out to multiple mailing lists
like spam, I don't see why detailed reports should be an hindrance?

I had personally brought up the concerns about the 'India Program Trust' in
an email to foundation-l way back in November:
http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/2011-November/070419.html

and it is deeply saddening there wasn't even a response to that by Hisham
or his team. Is this how the community is being dealt with?

-- 
Hari Prasad Nadig
http://hpnadig.net
http://twitter.com/hpnadig
http://flickr.com/hpnadig
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] India Program: Community Monthly Report: Feb 2012

2012-03-07 Thread Jyoti Prakash Nath 
Dear Wikipedians,


        This is my
first mail to this list and I am from the Assamese Wikipedia Community, so 
please excuse me if made a mistake. My user name is jpnath008.


        Reading this
discussion I just feel the need to inform you about the growing development of
Assamese Wikipedia. The last year and the current year can be considered as
mile stones in the growth of As Wiki. At the end of the last year about 4 to 6
active editor join to the community and the result is <900 articles. The two
wikimeetups held at Guwahati and Tezpur university respectively able to attract
more than 10 people to the community. 


        The Guwahati
meetup is the first Assamese Wikipedia meetup. I faced many problems to find a 
suitable
place to arrange the meetup, because from the beginning I decided to make this
meeting like an workshop more than a meet. I contacted Guwahati university’s
concerned persons with this proposal but they were asking me about a formal
letter from the authority (for them it is Wikipedia authority). At the very
moment Mr. Shiju Alex come to help me and he contacted directly with the IT
department of the university. He made it so easy for me to arrange such a good
hall with projector and internet connection in free of coast. I specially 
targeted
the media people and the university students with some new interested people
were present at that meet. Therefore the need of a projector was must. There are
now 3 active administrators working very hardly and 18 editors including the
administrators in As Wiki. 


        Presently one
of the active member, Anjal Bora wrote an article on a famous Assamese magazine
“PRANTIK” about the Assamese Wiki, and now he is getting calls and emails from 
various
persons who are willing to contribute to As Wiki. I wrote an article for an
online e-magazine, for a news paper and a letter in answering the Anjal Bora’s
article and all this are waiting for publishing. We are expecting more active
people to join the community after this. I have some more plans to attract
Assamese people to join to the As Wiki. 
 
Regards
JyotiPrakash Nath
SSL-Guwahati
+919864917706



>
> From: Shiju Alex 
>To: Wikimedia India Community list  
>Sent: Wednesday, 7 March 2012 2:47 PM
>Subject: Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] India Program: Community Monthly Report: Feb 
>2012
> 
>
>I am replying to this mail as a Malayalam wikimedia community member.
>
>
>
>Fact:  Subhashish, former volunteer, and now paid consultant with India 
>Programs.
>>
>What do you mean by this? I Shiju Alex is a Indic language wikipedian now 
>close to 6 years. According to Mr. Anirudh (an EC member of India chapter) I 
>am a former 
volunteer. is this is the official position of wikimedia India chapter? As a 
community member I require an explanation for this. 
>
>
>Shiju Alex
>
>(An Indic language wikipedian)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 1:11 PM, Anirudh Bhati  wrote:
>
>On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 12:42 PM, Hisham  wrote:
>>
>>
>>>
>>>Nothing is conducted solely by India Program - and hence I said "supported." 
>>> Everything is conducted by the community - sometimes under the aegis of the 
>>>Chapter and sometimes independently.  The support that we have provided 
>>>varies - from getting the actual event fixed up to providing presentation 
>>>material to interested community members to participating in these events.  
>>
>>
>>Can this be clearly specified in the report?  That is more helpful than 
>>simply "supported".  For instance, when you say "Supported the community to 
>>get a venue in Guwahati University", it would help us understand more if you 
>>could tell us how.
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 12:45 PM, CherianTinu 
>>Abraham  wrote:
>>
>>
>>Hi Pranav, 
>>>In India, it is extremely difficult to hairline separate who has done which 
>>>event. - Chapter, Community and WMF India Programs. 
>>>
>>
>>
>>I agree it's not possible to do that, but it is entirely possible to list out 
>>the work done in specific.  This enhances our accountability and transparency 
>>towards the community.
>> 
>>Let us take the case of the Trichy event, the request came to a community 
>>member Rsrikanth to the chapter. Nitika was actively involved along with me 
>>and Naveen. The chapter signed the MoU and supplied some goodies. Nitika was 
>>actively involved in coaching Sohan, a chapter member and Rsrikanth.  One 
>>must not also forget that both Hisham & Nitika are also chapter members. 
>>
>>
>>Fact: Nitika is a paid employee of the WMF India Programs and is not a 
>>chapter/community volunteer.
>> 
>>
>>>Another event in Chennai (Jaya eng college) , where Subha led, his travel 
>>>expenses was reimbursed by the Chapter, Subha is a Chapter SIG Chair .. The 
>>>event is supported by Hisham & Nitika too. Subha is also an India Programs 
>>>executive. 
>>>
>>
>>
>>Fact:  Subhashish, former volunteer, and now paid consultant with India 
>>Programs.
>> 
>>
>>>I actively organize Bangal

Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] India Program: Community Monthly Report: Feb 2012

2012-03-07 Thread Srikanth Ramakrishnan 
Jyoti. this is brilliant indeed. I agree, community support is
something we expect from the foundation. Nitika helped me a lot last
month for a meetup.
Hari, if your mail was about Trust vs Society, I'm with you.
Shiju, as an English Wikipedia editor, I stand by Anirudh, his edits,
his role in setting up the chapter, and what he said.

-- 
Regards,
Srikanth Ramakrishnan.
Wikipedia Coimbatore Meetup on February 12th.
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Meetup/Coimbatore
Aliens invaded Tamil Nadu, left their Spacship and now it is a Toll Plaza.
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:IVRCL-Vijayamangalam-Toll-Plaza.JPG

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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Sanskrit, scripts and Wikisource

2012-03-07 Thread praveenp 
Frankly, i had not  understood what you said earlier :-(, thank you
for later one. As you may have known, I personaly not interested in
current type wide deployment of webfonts, not only because usability
of its current  deployment is limited, but also it is almost obsolete
in its current purpose. Still I believe it can provide much help to
users in multi-script environment. For sanskrit, even en.wp article
says that many compatible scripts including malayalam, kannada, telugu
etc were used to write sanskrit. Providing all those scripts in
webfonts in wiki level may be idiotic in developer sense. If users are
able to select appropriate font (read script) for them, then IMO it
will be the real win of webfonts.

Anyway i'm happy to know you've such a vast knowledge about silpa
project and its scope and limitation. :-)

On 07/03/2012, Gerard Meijssen  wrote:
> Hoi,
> Reading back I realised that I did not answer your question really. What
> you are asking for is the possibility to transliterate a text into a
> specific script.This is something that needs development. At the Silpa
> website there is functionality that does some initial transliteration. It
> however needs more work and when the software has been tried and tested it
> still needs to be implemented in MediaWiki.
>
> So the answer is: please help us code this functionality :)
> Thanks,
>  Gerard
>
> http://silpa.org.in/Transliterate
>
> On 5 March 2012 17:33, praveenp  wrote:
>
>> Hi, Is it possible to select other scripts other than devnagiri or
>> brahmi on user level? I know some sanskrit but i'm more comfortable
>> with malayalam script :-). Such an option will be an added advantage
>> for many people like me. I've seen many   sanskrit texts (usually with
>> malayalam translation or detailing) using malayalam script. So i hope
>> nothing wrong in it.
>>
>> --
>> With love
>> Praveen :talk<
>> http://ml.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Praveenp>
>>
>> ___
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>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
>>
>

-- 
Sent from my mobile device

With love
Praveen 
:talk

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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] India Program: Community Monthly Report: Feb 2012

2012-03-07 Thread Sudhanwa Jogalekar 
Hi,

Let me take the focus of discussions back to the report/s where it all started.


On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 4:58 PM, Hisham  wrote:
>
>
> On Mar 7, 2012, at 1:38 PM, Pradeep Mohandas wrote:
>
>
> In retrospect, I also understand the need for seperating the Foundation
> activities as well. I think it is best to either go for total seperation of
> community, chapter and Office or have general statements.
>
>
> The work that India Program is doing is integrally embedded in community
> building.  This means we work directly with interested community members
> across the world and with the Chapter.   I don't think a total separation is
> either practical or advisable.  We should obviously avoid taking the option
> of "general statements" - and we need to find a suitable island in between.

I was going through the report and also saw another page here:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/India_Program/Outreach_Programs/Outreach_Sessions/Feb
that gives listing of outreach sessions by IP.

Another page by chapter also shows outreach reports. It is on the main
page of wiki.

IP and Chapter are having more or less similar functions. They do
similar outreach efforts and have same people in some functions.

Somehow, the reports from IP as well has chapter has about 9 entries
each for outreach program and only 2 are common !!

One of them is the now famous NITT academy and the other one is GNUnify.
I was surprised to see only the English academy entry in GNUnify that
was conducted by Ashwin and helped by IEP volunteers. The Marathi
academy conducted at the same lab immediately after the lunch break is
not mentioned at all. Also surprising was the entry where Moksh was
involved. Possibly, it was supported by some IP person.

General observation is that the report from IP shows the listing where
only the IP, IEP people were involved and the chapter report mentions
otherwise.

This clearly means that there is a disconnect. I dont see any of the
IEP/IP people joining the Pune community activities (except a few). In
fact, one of the outreach session (mentioned in the report) by the IEP
was not even mentioned on any of the lists.

Possibly, there is some polarisation somewhere and personally I feel
that it could be in favour of IP; simply because volunteers become
paid activists there.

Lets take a very much possible theoretical case(like the NITT, where
volunteers had bad experiences) where a volunteer goes for conducting
an academy and is not treated well and has bad facilities of
lodging/boarding/travel etc. And for the same academy, a person from
IP is also going and flies to/from the place and lives in a nice
hotel. In such case, where and how to compare the voluntary work v/s
paid staff work? The volunteer has spent his time and resouces for
hardly anything but the staff is being paid for the same activity as
part of the job.

Ashwin has hinted about evaluating voluntary efforts. Is there any
method to do it?

Community members are same for both- chapter as well as IP. However,
chapter is answerable to the community even when all the community
members are not necessarily chapter members. (just a technical point.
not to be emphasised), Whereas IP may not have any binding on anything
and still get all kind of funds from WMF.  And also hire people from
the community for doing the same work people were earlier doing
voluntarily. Also remember that chapter and the community members do
their work voluntarily and not get paid for it.

Well, just to clarify, I am not saying that community members, IP
staff and IEP volunteers are not doing work. They are really doing
fantastic work and that must to be appreciated. However, all those
efforts/work has to be taken in various perspectives mentioned in this
thread.

Best regards
-Sudhanwa


~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!
web: www.sudhanwa.com  blog: www.sudhanwa.in
Twitter: sudhanwa Check on FB, Linkedin for more.

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[Wikimediaindia-l] Chennai Hackathon on efytimes

2012-03-07 Thread Srikanth Lakshmanan 
http://news.efytimes.com/e1/79898/Write-Cool-Hacks-On-Wikimedia-Projects--Chennai-Hackathon-March

-- 
Regards
Srikanth.L
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[Wikimediaindia-l] [Press] : Times of India : "Sanskrit makes a comeback, thanks to Wikipedia community"

2012-03-07 Thread Tinu Cherian 
Any way to reach out to them ? Are they on sa-wiki list ?

*Times of India : "Sanskrit makes a comeback, thanks to Wikipedia community"
*
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/gurgaon/Sanskrit-makes-a-comeback-thanks-to-Wikipedia-community/articleshow/12012312.cms

*Acclaimed author and linguist Umberto Eco once compared languages to
biological creatures. A language, he said, follows an organic lifespan - it
is born, it grows old, and it passes away. If the analogy holds, then
Sanskrit, one of the most ancient of tongues which originated in India,
seems to be living the last of its grizzled and decrepit years.

There has been talk of declaring it a dead language, and some believe that
it is only a matter of time before this language too goes the way of
ancient Greek and Latin. But this is likely only if the labour and constant
endeavours of the Sanskrit community - a body comprising scholars and
students of the language present in Gurgaon and other parts of the country
- fail to bear fruit.

Dr Shreyansh Dwivedi is part of the department of Sanskrit in SCERT,
Gurgaon. According to him, contrary to popular notions, Sanskrit is most
alive today than it has ever been. "The trouble is that most people do not
realize how much is happening in this field," he said.

Attempts have been made to help the language evolve to modern standards.
Haryana Sanskrit Academy is about to a launch a Sanskrit grammar software
for the students of the language. A full-fledged Sanskrit Wikipedia is
online, where scholars like Dwivedi and his colleagues are regular
contributors. And in Gurgaon, preparations for a new seminar and workshop
for the young are under way.

"There is no other language, which is being supported so thoroughly and
comprehensively, not just in Gurgaon, but in other parts of the country
too," said Dwivedi. He added that even those who are teaching Sanskrit in
schools and colleges have little idea about how vibrant this sphere is with
activity.

According to officials of the Haryana Sanskrit Academy, young students are
more than willing to go for language degrees in Sanskrit. "Earlier this
month the Delhi Sanskrit Academy held a one-day workshop, where hundreds of
young people turned up. It's only a matter of making the language
accessible, and Sanskrit will find many takers within no time," said an
official of the academy. *

Regards
Tinu Cherian
pr...@wikimedia.in
http://wiki.wikimedia.in/In_the_news

Important Note : Non-commercial reproduction for informative purposes only.
The publisher ( Times of India ) of the above news article owns the
copyrights of the article / content. All copyrights are duly acknowledged.
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] India Program: Community Monthly Report: Feb 2012

2012-03-07 Thread Ashwin Baindur 
Sudhanwa, a small correction. I was not supported by IEP members in Gnunify
but those of Wikipedia Pune Club which does include some former IEP
participants but also lots of new faces and myself :).

Warm regards,

Ashwin Baindur
--


On Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 2:05 AM, Sudhanwa Jogalekar
wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Let me take the focus of discussions back to the report/s where it all
> started.
>
>
> On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 4:58 PM, Hisham  wrote:
> >
> >
> > On Mar 7, 2012, at 1:38 PM, Pradeep Mohandas wrote:
> >
> >
> > In retrospect, I also understand the need for seperating the Foundation
> > activities as well. I think it is best to either go for total seperation
> of
> > community, chapter and Office or have general statements.
> >
> >
> > The work that India Program is doing is integrally embedded in community
> > building.  This means we work directly with interested community members
> > across the world and with the Chapter.   I don't think a total
> separation is
> > either practical or advisable.  We should obviously avoid taking the
> option
> > of "general statements" - and we need to find a suitable island in
> between.
>
> I was going through the report and also saw another page here:
>
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/India_Program/Outreach_Programs/Outreach_Sessions/Feb
> that gives listing of outreach sessions by IP.
>
> Another page by chapter also shows outreach reports. It is on the main
> page of wiki.
>
> IP and Chapter are having more or less similar functions. They do
> similar outreach efforts and have same people in some functions.
>
> Somehow, the reports from IP as well has chapter has about 9 entries
> each for outreach program and only 2 are common !!
>
> One of them is the now famous NITT academy and the other one is GNUnify.
> I was surprised to see only the English academy entry in GNUnify that
> was conducted by Ashwin and helped by IEP volunteers. The Marathi
> academy conducted at the same lab immediately after the lunch break is
> not mentioned at all. Also surprising was the entry where Moksh was
> involved. Possibly, it was supported by some IP person.
>
> General observation is that the report from IP shows the listing where
> only the IP, IEP people were involved and the chapter report mentions
> otherwise.
>
> This clearly means that there is a disconnect. I dont see any of the
> IEP/IP people joining the Pune community activities (except a few). In
> fact, one of the outreach session (mentioned in the report) by the IEP
> was not even mentioned on any of the lists.
>
> Possibly, there is some polarisation somewhere and personally I feel
> that it could be in favour of IP; simply because volunteers become
> paid activists there.
>
> Lets take a very much possible theoretical case(like the NITT, where
> volunteers had bad experiences) where a volunteer goes for conducting
> an academy and is not treated well and has bad facilities of
> lodging/boarding/travel etc. And for the same academy, a person from
> IP is also going and flies to/from the place and lives in a nice
> hotel. In such case, where and how to compare the voluntary work v/s
> paid staff work? The volunteer has spent his time and resouces for
> hardly anything but the staff is being paid for the same activity as
> part of the job.
>
> Ashwin has hinted about evaluating voluntary efforts. Is there any
> method to do it?
>
> Community members are same for both- chapter as well as IP. However,
> chapter is answerable to the community even when all the community
> members are not necessarily chapter members. (just a technical point.
> not to be emphasised), Whereas IP may not have any binding on anything
> and still get all kind of funds from WMF.  And also hire people from
> the community for doing the same work people were earlier doing
> voluntarily. Also remember that chapter and the community members do
> their work voluntarily and not get paid for it.
>
> Well, just to clarify, I am not saying that community members, IP
> staff and IEP volunteers are not doing work. They are really doing
> fantastic work and that must to be appreciated. However, all those
> efforts/work has to be taken in various perspectives mentioned in this
> thread.
>
> Best regards
> -Sudhanwa
>
>
> ~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!
> web: www.sudhanwa.com  blog: www.sudhanwa.in
> Twitter: sudhanwa Check on FB, Linkedin for more.
>
> ___
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> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] India Program: Community Monthly Report: Feb 2012

2012-03-07 Thread Ashwin Baindur 
I would like to add here that Nitika's & Subashish's presentation was a
great one for me to customise with my slides. I strongly recommend that
rather than recreate the wheel their presentation be used by all those
planning English language outreach. One of the things IP has done right.
Now I request that IP should complete the suite of presentation materials
required for outreach.

Warm regards,

Ashwin Baindur
--


On Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 7:30 AM, Ashwin Baindur wrote:

> Sudhanwa, a small correction. I was not supported by IEP members in
> Gnunify but those of Wikipedia Pune Club which does include some former IEP
> participants but also lots of new faces and myself :).
>
>
> Warm regards,
>
> Ashwin Baindur
> --
>
>
> On Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 2:05 AM, Sudhanwa Jogalekar  > wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> Let me take the focus of discussions back to the report/s where it all
>> started.
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 4:58 PM, Hisham  wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> > On Mar 7, 2012, at 1:38 PM, Pradeep Mohandas wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> > In retrospect, I also understand the need for seperating the Foundation
>> > activities as well. I think it is best to either go for total
>> seperation of
>> > community, chapter and Office or have general statements.
>> >
>> >
>> > The work that India Program is doing is integrally embedded in community
>> > building.  This means we work directly with interested community members
>> > across the world and with the Chapter.   I don't think a total
>> separation is
>> > either practical or advisable.  We should obviously avoid taking the
>> option
>> > of "general statements" - and we need to find a suitable island in
>> between.
>>
>> I was going through the report and also saw another page here:
>>
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/India_Program/Outreach_Programs/Outreach_Sessions/Feb
>> that gives listing of outreach sessions by IP.
>>
>> Another page by chapter also shows outreach reports. It is on the main
>> page of wiki.
>>
>> IP and Chapter are having more or less similar functions. They do
>> similar outreach efforts and have same people in some functions.
>>
>> Somehow, the reports from IP as well has chapter has about 9 entries
>> each for outreach program and only 2 are common !!
>>
>> One of them is the now famous NITT academy and the other one is GNUnify.
>> I was surprised to see only the English academy entry in GNUnify that
>> was conducted by Ashwin and helped by IEP volunteers. The Marathi
>> academy conducted at the same lab immediately after the lunch break is
>> not mentioned at all. Also surprising was the entry where Moksh was
>> involved. Possibly, it was supported by some IP person.
>>
>> General observation is that the report from IP shows the listing where
>> only the IP, IEP people were involved and the chapter report mentions
>> otherwise.
>>
>> This clearly means that there is a disconnect. I dont see any of the
>> IEP/IP people joining the Pune community activities (except a few). In
>> fact, one of the outreach session (mentioned in the report) by the IEP
>> was not even mentioned on any of the lists.
>>
>> Possibly, there is some polarisation somewhere and personally I feel
>> that it could be in favour of IP; simply because volunteers become
>> paid activists there.
>>
>> Lets take a very much possible theoretical case(like the NITT, where
>> volunteers had bad experiences) where a volunteer goes for conducting
>> an academy and is not treated well and has bad facilities of
>> lodging/boarding/travel etc. And for the same academy, a person from
>> IP is also going and flies to/from the place and lives in a nice
>> hotel. In such case, where and how to compare the voluntary work v/s
>> paid staff work? The volunteer has spent his time and resouces for
>> hardly anything but the staff is being paid for the same activity as
>> part of the job.
>>
>> Ashwin has hinted about evaluating voluntary efforts. Is there any
>> method to do it?
>>
>> Community members are same for both- chapter as well as IP. However,
>> chapter is answerable to the community even when all the community
>> members are not necessarily chapter members. (just a technical point.
>> not to be emphasised), Whereas IP may not have any binding on anything
>> and still get all kind of funds from WMF.  And also hire people from
>> the community for doing the same work people were earlier doing
>> voluntarily. Also remember that chapter and the community members do
>> their work voluntarily and not get paid for it.
>>
>> Well, just to clarify, I am not saying that community members, IP
>> staff and IEP volunteers are not doing work. They are really doing
>> fantastic work and that must to be appreciated. However, all those
>> efforts/work has to be taken in various perspectives mentioned in this
>> thread.
>>
>> Best regards
>> -Sudhanwa
>>
>>
>> ~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!
>> w

Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] [WMIN-Members] [Press] : Times of India : "Sanskrit makes a comeback, thanks to Wikipedia community"

2012-03-07 Thread Swaroop Rao 
We got coverage from the enwiki Signpost as well.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2012-03-05/In_the_news

Swaroop Rao
(MikeLynch )




On Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 03:26, Tinu Cherian  wrote:

> Any way to reach out to them ? Are they on sa-wiki list ?
>
> *Times of India : "Sanskrit makes a comeback, thanks to Wikipedia
> community"*
>
> http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/gurgaon/Sanskrit-makes-a-comeback-thanks-to-Wikipedia-community/articleshow/12012312.cms
>
> *Acclaimed author and linguist Umberto Eco once compared languages to
> biological creatures. A language, he said, follows an organic lifespan - it
> is born, it grows old, and it passes away. If the analogy holds, then
> Sanskrit, one of the most ancient of tongues which originated in India,
> seems to be living the last of its grizzled and decrepit years.
>
> There has been talk of declaring it a dead language, and some believe that
> it is only a matter of time before this language too goes the way of
> ancient Greek and Latin. But this is likely only if the labour and constant
> endeavours of the Sanskrit community - a body comprising scholars and
> students of the language present in Gurgaon and other parts of the country
> - fail to bear fruit.
>
> Dr Shreyansh Dwivedi is part of the department of Sanskrit in SCERT,
> Gurgaon. According to him, contrary to popular notions, Sanskrit is most
> alive today than it has ever been. "The trouble is that most people do not
> realize how much is happening in this field," he said.
>
> Attempts have been made to help the language evolve to modern standards.
> Haryana Sanskrit Academy is about to a launch a Sanskrit grammar software
> for the students of the language. A full-fledged Sanskrit Wikipedia is
> online, where scholars like Dwivedi and his colleagues are regular
> contributors. And in Gurgaon, preparations for a new seminar and workshop
> for the young are under way.
>
> "There is no other language, which is being supported so thoroughly and
> comprehensively, not just in Gurgaon, but in other parts of the country
> too," said Dwivedi. He added that even those who are teaching Sanskrit in
> schools and colleges have little idea about how vibrant this sphere is with
> activity.
>
> According to officials of the Haryana Sanskrit Academy, young students are
> more than willing to go for language degrees in Sanskrit. "Earlier this
> month the Delhi Sanskrit Academy held a one-day workshop, where hundreds of
> young people turned up. It's only a matter of making the language
> accessible, and Sanskrit will find many takers within no time," said an
> official of the academy. *
>
> Regards
> Tinu Cherian
> pr...@wikimedia.in
> http://wiki.wikimedia.in/In_the_news
>
> Important Note : Non-commercial reproduction for informative purposes
> only. The publisher ( Times of India ) of the above news article owns the
> copyrights of the article / content. All copyrights are duly acknowledged.
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Wikimedia
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Featured Wikimedian on the main page of the Chapter Web Portal

2012-03-07 Thread Naveen Francis 
Hi Abhiram,

Will take care this.
Please feel free to chip in and help to identify the featured wikipedians
across India.

--
naveenpf

On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 4:09 PM, Abhiram C  wrote:

> Dear Members,
>
> I would like to inform the Wikimedia India Chapter and its
> volunteers/workers that the Featured Wikimedian for the last 2 months have
> not been updated as such. I hope those who maintain the portal will look
> into the matter soon enough not to be obsolete.
>
> --
> Thanks & Regards,
> Abhiram C (User: sbblr0803)
>
> ___
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> To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
>
>
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[Wikimediaindia-l] Fwd: [Wikisource-l] Fwd: A Digital Dawn - online today to celebrate IWD

2012-03-07 Thread Pradeep Mohandas 
hi,

Some members on this list may be interested in this! Hope we can do
something similar for all of the magazines that India had in the end of the
19th century onwards.

Below message holds more weight since today is International Women's Day.

warm regards,
Pradeep

-- Forwarded message --
From: John Vandenberg 
Date: 8 March 2012 02:33
Subject: [Wikisource-l] Fwd: A Digital Dawn - online today to celebrate IWD
To: WMAu members 
Cc: "discussion list for Wikisource, the free library" <
wikisourc...@lists.wikimedia.org>, Wikimedia-au <
wikimediaa...@lists.wikimedia.org>, Increasing female participation in
Wikimedia projects 


-- Forwarded message --
From: Donna Benjamin 
Date: Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 7:01 AM
Subject: A Digital Dawn - online today to celebrate IWD
To: digitisethedawn 


International Women's Day 2012

The Dawn is now available online.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/title/252

Thank you all so much for playing your part in making this happen.

--
Digitise The Dawn
The campaign to digitise Louisa Lawson's Journal for Australian Women
http://digitisethedawn.org
http://twitter.com/digitisethedawn

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-- 
Pradeep Mohandas
How Pradeep uses email - http://goo.gl/6v1I9
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Featured Wikimedian on the main page of the Chapter Web Portal

2012-03-07 Thread Ashwin Baindur 
Naveen, the young folk who volunteered to take charge of projects such as
Bpositive, S-Sriram & Kondicherry may please be considered for this column.

Warm regards,

Ashwin Baindur
--


On Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 8:06 AM, Naveen Francis wrote:

> Hi Abhiram,
>
> Will take care this.
> Please feel free to chip in and help to identify the featured wikipedians
> across India.
>
> --
> naveenpf
>
> On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 4:09 PM, Abhiram C  wrote:
>
>> Dear Members,
>>
>> I would like to inform the Wikimedia India Chapter and its
>> volunteers/workers that the Featured Wikimedian for the last 2 months have
>> not been updated as such. I hope those who maintain the portal will look
>> into the matter soon enough not to be obsolete.
>>
>> --
>> Thanks & Regards,
>> Abhiram C (User: sbblr0803)
>>
>> ___
>> Wikimediaindia-l mailing list
>> Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
>>
>>
>
> ___
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> Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
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> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
>
>
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] India Program: Community Monthly Report: Feb 2012

2012-03-07 Thread Pratik Lahoti 
Hi Sudhanwa,

FYI, a report was sent by Wasim to this mailing list on the 6th of Feb.[1].

[1].
http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimediaindia-l/2012-February/006810.html

Regards,
Pratik Lahoti.

On Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 2:05 AM, Sudhanwa Jogalekar
wrote:

> Hi,
>
> This clearly means that there is a disconnect. I dont see any of the
> IEP/IP people joining the Pune community activities (except a few). In
> fact, one of the outreach session (mentioned in the report) by the IEP
> was not even mentioned on any of the lists.
>
>
>
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Polish Wikimedia scholarships for Wikimania 2012

2012-03-07 Thread CherianTinu Abraham 
Just a reminder.
The last date of applications for Wikimania scholarships by Wikimedia
Polska (Poland) is March 9, 2012.

The application should be submitted by e-mail sent to the Secretary of the
Commission (at powere...@gazeta.pl )

More details here
http://pl.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_2012/en#Application_process

-Tinu Cherian

On Sat, Feb 18, 2012 at 7:29 PM, Tinu Cherian wrote:

> Hi all,
> Wikimedia Polska (Poland) has announced  its own scholarships
> programme for Wikimedians willing to attend Wikimania 2012 in Washington,
> D.C
> Apart from up to 10 scholarships for Wikimedians from Poland, they are
> also going to grant up to 6 scholarships for Wikimedians from other
> countries ( which includes India).
>
> More details can be found here :
> http://pl.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_2012/en
>
> We spoke to the Committee, and they expressed that all willing Indian
> Wikimedians are free to apply and they will treat them with all due
> consideration.
>
> Please also note that the recipients will be required to cover all the
> expenses on their own and then present the documentation of those expenses
> to the them in order to qualify for the refund.
>
> While the number of WMF scholarships for Wikimania are limited,We strongly
> encourage Wikimedians from India to also apply and utilize this opportunity
> too.
>
> Best wishes !
>
> Regards
> Tinu Cherian
> Wikimedia India
> http://wiki.wikimedia.in
>
> P.S. Feel free to forward this to various other India-related Wikimedia
> mailing lists.
>
> On Fri, Feb 17, 2012 at 5:01 AM, Tomasz Ganicz 
> wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> Wikimedia Polska (Poland) has just launched its own scholarships
>> programme for Wikimedians willing to attend Wikimania 2012 in
>> Washington, D.C. This year, apart from up to 10 scholarships for
>> Wikimedians from Poland, we are also going to grant up to 6
>> scholarships for Wikimedians from other countries. Only countries
>> which have lower national income per capita than Poland (according to
>> World Bank 2010 stats) are eligible. We are particularly willing to
>> reach out to the Wikimedians from the former USSR countries (except
>> Estonia, which doesn't meet the income criteria) and from the Balkans
>> (except Greece and Slovenia, for the same reason). The scholarship
>> covers travel and accommodation expenses, as well as conference fee.
>>
>> More details are available here: http://pl.wikimedia.org/wiki/**
>> Wikimania_2012/en 
>>
>> The closing date for applications is March 9.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> --
>> Tomek "Polimerek" Ganicz
>> http://pl.wikimedia.org/wiki/**User:Polimerek
>> http://www.ganicz.pl/poli/
>> http://www.cbmm.lodz.pl/work.**php?id=29&title=tomasz-ganicz
>>
>> __**_
>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.**org 
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/**mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>>
>
>
>
>
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