Re: [Wikitech-l] How would you disrupt Wikipedia?
On 1 January 2011 03:03, Ryan Kaldari rkald...@wikimedia.org wrote: On this note, MTV Networks (my previous job) switched from using Mediawiki to Confluence a couple years ago. They mainly cited ease of use and Microsoft Office integration as the reasons. Personally I hated it, except for the dashboard interface, which was pretty slick. Some Wikipedia power-users have similar dashboard style interfaces that they have custom built on their User Pages, but I think it would be cool if we let people add these sort of interfaces without having to be a template-hacker. The sort of interface I'm talking about would include stuff like community and WikiProject notices and various real-time stats. If you were a vandal fighter, you would get a vandalism thermometer, streaming incident notices, a recent changes feed, etc. If you were a content reviewer, you would get lists of the latest Featured Article and Good Article candidates, as well as the latest images nominated for Featured Picture Status, and announcements from the Guild of Copyeditors. The possibilities are endless. Ryan Kaldari So, what stop people from writing a dashboard wizard that let people select a predefined one? -- -- ℱin del ℳensaje. ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
[Wikitech-l] Compatibility
I've been skimming the archives looking for something unrelated, and noticed that we fairly regularly have threads about compatibility, specifically the use of function X or feature Y in PHP, CSS, skins, or whatever. I concluded that we don't really have one centralised place where we document the software we support. So in the spirit of documentation, I've created another page to complement the other half dozen which already discuss system requirements (:-D) at mw.org: http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Compatibility which is distinct primarily in a) trying to record which versions *did* support software which we now say we don't support, and b) including browsers and css/js. I wanted to bring it to everyone's attention primarily to check that we're all agreed on the software we no longer support. In addition to PHP4, PHP5.3.1 and MySQL3, which have been unsupported for donkey's years, I've marked PHP5.0 as unsupported (per [1][2]), since 1.15; that's a pretty arbitrary version to choose, but I picked one with some overlap with PHP 5.3. I've also marked IE 6 as unsupported, as IIRC someone said that recently (:-D). Is that accurate? For the future, PHP5.1 has just seen in its fifth New Year. Dropping support there would allow us to use __tostring() magic on various objects, which could be useful in various places. Equally, the Wikimedia cluster has run MySQL 5 for over a year now [3], and it's approaching its eighth birthday; MySQL 4.0 and 4.1 are no longer maintained. Of course, we're not saying right, we don't support X, let's go add fun things to make absolutely sure that it doesn't work; once a product is unsupported, we allow incompatibilities to gradually creep in in the course of normal development. We're not going to go change the recentchanges table to use BITs just because we can; but we might use that type if we introduce *new* columns. Also interested in what people think about the CSS/JS/Text-only section. Is that a fair summary of our position? --HM [1] http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/2009-June/043584.html [2] http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/2010-October/049828.html [3] http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/2009-December/046127.html ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
[Wikitech-l] WYSIWTF working demo
Happy new year all!
Let me welcome you to this historical year (10 years of Wikipedia!
Wow!) with a working demo of WYSIWTF, a pure JavaScript attempt at
(pseudo-) WYSIWYG wikipedia editing.
For the impatient, add
document.write('script type=text/javascript
src=http://toolserver.org/~magnus/wysiwtf/wysiwtf.js;\/script');
to your vector.js, force-reload, and try any article, User, or
Wikipedia namespace page. Click the WYSIWTF tab, edit, and save (yes,
it does save. You are responsible for cleaning up if you make a mess
;-)
(I invite you to try my test article at
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Magnus_Manske/test )
Now, this is not real WYSIWYG, but rather what I'd call augmented
wikitext. You still edit wikitext, but some elements (headings,
links, images, and yes, template) are HTML-rendered for convenience.
Large templates are collapsed into the template name; double-click it
to show/hide the vast sea of parameters, which you then can edit like
normal wikitext. Likewise, double-click links or images to get
(currently quite limited) properties.
For this to work, wikitext is parsed into augmented wikitext, which
is then edited, and rewritten to normal wikitext upon save. Therefore,
you can still enter wikitext directly, and it will just work (TM),
except it won't show directly in its rendered form in the editor.
Likewise, lots of wikitext markup is currently not parsed into an
augmented form; bold/italics, lists, and tables, among others, are
left untouched. I can do only so much for a demo :-)
The editor component is by far the weakest part of this demo. I looked
at CKedit, but it seemed too much work to adapt it for a demo than to
write my own editor, which I then did. To make my life easier, each
wikitext character (!) is its own span element, which might tax your
browser. Medium-sized articles work fine in Chrome on my MacBook Pro,
but YMMV. You can click into the text to position the cursor, move it
left and right with the cursor keys (not up or down!), type text,
delete or backspace, and use Enter for new line. That's it. No text
selection, not bold/italics buttons, no undo. All of which is entirely
feasible, but too much work for this demo.
Some things can't be done with the demo right now, such as changing a
template name, or resizing an image. Again, no technical reason, just
a man-hour one. You will certainly find many ways to break it, and
instances where it fails (correctly discerning whether and image if
local or from Commons is one).
What I would like is some discussion about
* if this approach (working pseudo-WYSIWYG instead of unattainable
perfect WYSIWYG) is the way to go
* if the code I wrote would be a suitable basis for a system we can
throw at the general public
* if anyone is willing to help me with that
As always, my code is GPL, and I would be more than happy if, in the
end, it would become official Foundation code, with staff that
supports it. Well, I can dream...
Cheers,
Magnus
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Re: [Wikitech-l] WYSIWTF working demo
What I would like is some discussion about * if this approach (working pseudo-WYSIWYG instead of unattainable perfect WYSIWYG) is the way to go * if the code I wrote would be a suitable basis for a system we can throw at the general public * if anyone is willing to help me with that As always, my code is GPL, and I would be more than happy if, in the end, it would become official Foundation code, with staff that supports it. Well, I can dream... You seem to want to do exactly the same thing as I'm doing, but in the browser only! Maybe you're interested in looking at http://janpaulposma.nl/sle/wiki, http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/User:JanPaul123/Sentence-level_editing, http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/2010-October/050031.html and http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Sentence-level_editing Anyway, I have also looked at doing parsing in the browser, which is quite interesting. WikiBasha also uses JS parsing, so maybe it's a good idea to look at that too. Trevor also made a JS parser, but I think it's not in SVN (yet). Regards, Jan Paul ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] WYSIWTF working demo
On 1 January 2011 12:50, Magnus Manske magnusman...@googlemail.com wrote: What I would like is some discussion about * if this approach (working pseudo-WYSIWYG instead of unattainable perfect WYSIWYG) is the way to go The question is: can it be incrementally improved, new tags and ways to deal with them etc, added as we go? Is it structured to make that a reasonably straightforward thing to do? - d. ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] How would you disrupt Wikipedia?
On 1 January 2011 02:03, Ryan Kaldari rkald...@wikimedia.org wrote: On this note, MTV Networks (my previous job) switched from using Mediawiki to Confluence a couple years ago. There's a certain large media organisation in the UK that uses Confluence for WYSIWYG and access control lists. And not MediaWiki. I could have talked them past the ACLs, but not the lack of WYSIWYG. That's one of the reasons I'm so very gung-ho on the stuff. They mainly cited ease of use and Microsoft Office integration as the reasons. It doesn't have ease of use at all. What it has is a features list and a sales team. In terms of ease of use, my current workplace has an official Plone-based intranet and a few less-official MediaWiki installations. Our office wiki is ridiculously easier to actually use than the Plone site, despite the lack of WYSIWYG (FCK was pretty good, but not quite good enough). The Plone site is a write-only Personally I hated it, except for the dashboard interface, which was pretty slick. Some Wikipedia power-users have similar dashboard style interfaces that they have custom built on their User Pages, but I think it would be cool if we let people add these sort of interfaces without having to be a template-hacker. The sort of interface I'm talking about would include stuff like community and WikiProject notices and various real-time stats. If you were a vandal fighter, you would get a vandalism thermometer, streaming incident notices, a recent changes feed, etc. If you were a content reviewer, you would get lists of the latest Featured Article and Good Article candidates, as well as the latest images nominated for Featured Picture Status, and announcements from the Guild of Copyeditors. The possibilities are endless. Ryan Kaldari On 12/31/10 4:35 PM, Jay Ashworth wrote: - Original Message - From: Neil Kandalgaonkarne...@wikimedia.org Meanwhile, MediaWiki is perhaps too powerful and too complex to administer for the small organization. I work with a small group of artists that run a MediaWiki instance and whenever online collaboration has to happen, nobody in this group says Let's make a wiki page! Why not? That used to happen, but nowadays they go straight to Google Docs. Oh. Well, that's bad. But people will choose the wrong tools; I don't think that's evidence that MediaWiki's Broken As Designed. Too powerful and complex to administer? It needs administration? In a small organization? I set one up at my previous employers, and used it to take all my notes, which required exactly zero administration: I just slapped it on a box, and I was done. And my successor is *very* happy about it. :-) Cheers, -- jra ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] How would you disrupt Wikipedia?
On 1 January 2011 15:03, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote: It doesn't have ease of use at all. What it has is a features list and a sales team. In terms of ease of use, my current workplace has an official Plone-based intranet and a few less-official MediaWiki installations. Our office wiki is ridiculously easier to actually use than the Plone site, despite the lack of WYSIWYG (FCK was pretty good, but not quite good enough). The Plone site is a write-only ... document graveyard. It's where documentation goes to die, unloved and unnoticed. The wiki is what people actually read and update. But I do think WYSIWYG could give it about eight times the participation. So, yeah. I'm picturing a happy world of bunnies and flowers where the MediaWiki tarball includes WYSIWYG right there and people use an office wiki as the massively multiplayer office whiteboard it should be, and the sysadmin gets treated like a hero with very little work. Because MediaWiki is very little work. And we like to be treated like heroes every now and then. - d. ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] WYSIWTF working demo
- Original Message - From: Mathias Schindler mathias.schind...@gmail.com To: Wikimedia developers wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org Sent: Saturday, January 1, 2011 10:34:00 AM Subject: Re: [Wikitech-l] WYSIWTF working demo On Sat, Jan 1, 2011 at 1:50 PM, Magnus Manske magnusman...@googlemail.com wrote: What I would like is some discussion about * if this approach (working pseudo-WYSIWYG instead of unattainable perfect WYSIWYG) is the way to go * if the code I wrote would be a suitable basis for a system we can throw at the general public * if anyone is willing to help me with that I love it and for the sake of demonstration the deep impact of the approach, I recommend one minor change: * deactivate or hide or shrink the read and edit tab as they are now obsolete or make the WYSIWTF tab the default display. Are like hell. Some people -- you can include me in this -- *actively* hate WYSIWYG editing, thank-you-very-much. Good bet at least 30-50% of Wikipedia's power editors are very well versed in MWtext[1], and how to use it to get what they want; I wouldn't recommend making it hard for those people to keep doing what they've been doing. Cheers, -- jra [1] Yes, I've just made that statistic up, but I expect it will track with other similar statistics. ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] WYSIWTF working demo
- Original Message - From: Mathias Schindler mathias.schind...@gmail.com To: Wikimedia developers wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org Sent: Saturday, January 1, 2011 10:34:00 AM Subject: Re: [Wikitech-l] WYSIWTF working demo On Sat, Jan 1, 2011 at 1:50 PM, Magnus Manske magnusman...@googlemail.com wrote: What I would like is some discussion about * if this approach (working pseudo-WYSIWYG instead of unattainable perfect WYSIWYG) is the way to go * if the code I wrote would be a suitable basis for a system we can throw at the general public * if anyone is willing to help me with that I love it and for the sake of demonstration the deep impact of the approach, I recommend one minor change: * deactivate or hide or shrink the read and edit tab as they are now obsolete or make the WYSIWTF tab the default display. Are like hell. Some people -- you can include me in this -- *actively* hate WYSIWYG editing, thank-you-very-much. Good bet at least 30-50% of Wikipedia's power editors are very well versed in MWtext[1], and how to use it to get what they want; I wouldn't recommend making it hard for those people to keep doing what they've been doing. Cheers, -- jra [1] Yes, I've just made that statistic up, but I expect it will track with other similar statistics. I'll admit to hating Wikia's new system, but so far this looks interesting. Even there though you don't have to select it. Fred Bauder ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] WYSIWTF working demo
On Sat, Jan 1, 2011 at 4:49 PM, Jay Ashworth j...@baylink.com wrote: Some people -- you can include me in this -- *actively* hate WYSIWYG editing, my comment was in no way about the pros and cons of WYSIWYG editing and the decision at Wikimedia to have its own turing complete language for content. My comment was about this demonstrator which should have a huge selection bias of non-haters :) I reject the WYSIWYG concept itself much less then I dislike the effects it has on humans who start to make things look nice. ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Does anybody have the 20080726 dump version?
On 31 December 2010 17:09, Ariel T. Glenn ar...@wikimedia.org wrote: I'd like all the dumps from all the projects to be on line. Being realistic I think we would wind up keeping offline copies of all of it, and copies from every 6 months online, with the last several months of consecutive runs = around 20 or 30 of them also online. Has anyone found anyone at the Internet Archive who answers their email and would be interested in making these available to the world? Sounds just their thing. Unless there's some reason it isn't. - d. ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Does anybody have the 20080726 dump version?
Στις 01-01-2011, ημέρα Σαβ, και ώρα 16:42 +, ο/η David Gerard έγραψε: On 31 December 2010 17:09, Ariel T. Glenn ar...@wikimedia.org wrote: I'd like all the dumps from all the projects to be on line. Being realistic I think we would wind up keeping offline copies of all of it, and copies from every 6 months online, with the last several months of consecutive runs = around 20 or 30 of them also online. Has anyone found anyone at the Internet Archive who answers their email and would be interested in making these available to the world? Sounds just their thing. Unless there's some reason it isn't. Yes, we know some people at the Archive, I am not sure what they would need to arrange however. It's just a matter of having someone upload the dumps up there, as someno has done for a few of them in the past... unless you are talking about having them grab the dumps every couple weeks and put them someplace organized. Ariel ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Does anybody have the 20080726 dump version?
I have been talking to Ariel about mirroring the dumps. I guess that I know at the end of the month if we really are going to do it... But sounds good to have some stable mirrors. Best, Huib ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Does anybody have the 20080726 dump version?
I'd like to remind everyone once again of the mirror page: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mirroring_Wikimedia_project_XML_dumps If you have any ideas, please add them there, and pursue them or ask for help in doing so. If you are able to host, don't be shy, step right up ;-) Ariel Στις 01-01-2011, ημέρα Σαβ, και ώρα 17:47 +0100, ο/η Huib Laurens έγραψε: I have been talking to Ariel about mirroring the dumps. I guess that I know at the end of the month if we really are going to do it... But sounds good to have some stable mirrors. Best, Huib ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] WYSIWTF working demo
I love it and for the sake of demonstration the deep impact of the approach, I recommend one minor change: Retitle it WYSIFTW ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] WYSIWTF working demo
Unfortunately I would say the thing is broken for me, insofar as
various keys (e.g. j,k,f,g,h,l) result in editor actions instead of
characters being inserted.
On Sat, Jan 1, 2011 at 12:50 PM, Magnus Manske
magnusman...@googlemail.com wrote:
Happy new year all!
Let me welcome you to this historical year (10 years of Wikipedia!
Wow!) with a working demo of WYSIWTF, a pure JavaScript attempt at
(pseudo-) WYSIWYG wikipedia editing.
For the impatient, add
document.write('script type=text/javascript
src=http://toolserver.org/~magnus/wysiwtf/wysiwtf.js;\/script');
to your vector.js, force-reload, and try any article, User, or
Wikipedia namespace page. Click the WYSIWTF tab, edit, and save (yes,
it does save. You are responsible for cleaning up if you make a mess
;-)
(I invite you to try my test article at
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Magnus_Manske/test )
Now, this is not real WYSIWYG, but rather what I'd call augmented
wikitext. You still edit wikitext, but some elements (headings,
links, images, and yes, template) are HTML-rendered for convenience.
Large templates are collapsed into the template name; double-click it
to show/hide the vast sea of parameters, which you then can edit like
normal wikitext. Likewise, double-click links or images to get
(currently quite limited) properties.
For this to work, wikitext is parsed into augmented wikitext, which
is then edited, and rewritten to normal wikitext upon save. Therefore,
you can still enter wikitext directly, and it will just work (TM),
except it won't show directly in its rendered form in the editor.
Likewise, lots of wikitext markup is currently not parsed into an
augmented form; bold/italics, lists, and tables, among others, are
left untouched. I can do only so much for a demo :-)
The editor component is by far the weakest part of this demo. I looked
at CKedit, but it seemed too much work to adapt it for a demo than to
write my own editor, which I then did. To make my life easier, each
wikitext character (!) is its own span element, which might tax your
browser. Medium-sized articles work fine in Chrome on my MacBook Pro,
but YMMV. You can click into the text to position the cursor, move it
left and right with the cursor keys (not up or down!), type text,
delete or backspace, and use Enter for new line. That's it. No text
selection, not bold/italics buttons, no undo. All of which is entirely
feasible, but too much work for this demo.
Some things can't be done with the demo right now, such as changing a
template name, or resizing an image. Again, no technical reason, just
a man-hour one. You will certainly find many ways to break it, and
instances where it fails (correctly discerning whether and image if
local or from Commons is one).
What I would like is some discussion about
* if this approach (working pseudo-WYSIWYG instead of unattainable
perfect WYSIWYG) is the way to go
* if the code I wrote would be a suitable basis for a system we can
throw at the general public
* if anyone is willing to help me with that
As always, my code is GPL, and I would be more than happy if, in the
end, it would become official Foundation code, with staff that
supports it. Well, I can dream...
Cheers,
Magnus
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Re: [Wikitech-l] WYSIWTF working demo
On 1 January 2011 16:53, Joe Corneli holtzerman...@gmail.com wrote: I love it and for the sake of demonstration the deep impact of the approach, I recommend one minor change: Retitle it WYSIFTW +1 - d. ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
[Wikitech-l] What would be a perfect wiki syntax? (Re: WYSIWYG)
I've been following the discussion and as I can see it's already become
rather unproductive*. So I hope my cutting in will not be very much out
of place (even if I don't really know what I'm talking about).
Many people here has stated the main reason why a WYSIWYG editor is not
feasible is the current wikitext syntax.
What's actually wrong with it?
The main thing I can thing of is the fact one template may include an
opening of a table etc. and another one a closing (e.g. {{col-begin}},
{{col-end}}). It makes it impossible to isolate the template from the
rest of the article - draw a frame around it, say this box here is a
template.
It could be fixed by forbidding leaving unclosed tags in templates. As a
replacement, a kind of foreach loop could be introduced to iterate
through an unspecified number of arguments.
Lack of standardisation has also been mentioned. Something else?
I've tried to think how a perfect parser should work. Most of this has
been already mentioned. I think it should work in two steps: first
tokenise the code and transform it into an intermediate tree structure like
*paragraph
title:
* plain text: Section 1
content:
* plain text: foo
* bold text:
* plain text: bar
* template
name: Infobox
* argument
name: last name:
value:
* plain text: Shakespear
and so on. Then this structure could be transformed into a) HTML for
display, b) JSON for the WYSIWYG editor. Thanks for this you wouldn't
need to write a whole new JS parser. The editor would get a half-ready
product. The JS code would need to be able to: a) transform this
structure into HTML, b) modify the structure, c) transform this
structure back into wikitext.
But I guess it's more realistic to write a new JS parser than to write a
new PHP parser. The former can start as a stub, the latter would need to
be fully operational from the beginning.
Stephanie's suggestions are also interesting.
lampak
* (except the WYSIWTF, of course)
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Re: [Wikitech-l] WYSIWTF working demo
On Sat, Jan 1, 2011 at 6:17 PM, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote: On 1 January 2011 16:53, Joe Corneli holtzerman...@gmail.com wrote: I love it and for the sake of demonstration the deep impact of the approach, I recommend one minor change: Retitle it WYSIFTW +1 I hope you're both referring to #1 on http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/FTW ... (#3 would work as well, for wheel wars ;-) ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] WYSIWTF working demo
I'm getting blank pages after adding that (in Safari, Mac).
I tried using importScriptURI'ing it but to no luck. I presume because
the script internally calls more document.writes.
--
Krinkle
Op 1 jan 2011, om 13:50 heeft Magnus Manske het volgende geschreven:
For the impatient, add
document.write('script type=text/javascript
src=http://toolserver.org/~magnus/wysiwtf/wysiwtf.js;\/script');
to your vector.js,
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Missing Section Headings
On 12/31/2010 03:07 PM, Platonides wrote:
Marc Riddell wrote:
I have been a WP editor since 2006. I hope you can help me. For some reason
I no longer have Section Heading titles showing in the Articles. This is
true of all Headings including the one that carries the Article subject's
name. When there is a Table of Contents, it appears fine and, when I click
on a particular Section, it goes to that Section, but all that is there is a
straight line separating the Sections. There is also no button to edit a
Section. If I edit the page and remove the == == markers from the Section
Titles, the Title then shows up, but not as a Section Heading. Also, I don't
have any Date separators on my Want List. This started 2 days ago. Any
thoughts?
Thanks,
Marc Riddell
[[User:Michael David]]
You have something like
h1, h2, h3 { display: none }
inside your monobook.css / vector.css ?
Neither subpage seems to exist on en.wikipedia. Of course, he could
have something like that as a user style in his browser, but I find that
unlikely.
There wasn't any global update in the last days.
Given the long expiration times we set for our script and style pages, I
think any change within the last 30 days or so could be the cause.
--
Ilmari Karonen
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Re: [Wikitech-l] WYSIWTF working demo
Op 1 jan 2011, om 13:50 heeft Magnus Manske het volgende geschreven:
For the impatient, add
document.write('script type=text/javascript
src=http://toolserver.org/~magnus/wysiwtf/wysiwtf.js;\/script');
to your vector.js,
Okay, I've switched to Firefox 4 Beta on Mac and it works there.
One error I got though, when I click the WYSIWTF-tab it got stuck on
Parsing... modal box.
Console told me images.query [undefined] is not an object.
API call to
http://www.mediawiki.org/w/api.php?action=querygenerator=imagestitles=Sandboxprop=infoimlimit=500format=json
returned an empty array (the Sandbox page didn't contain any images at
the time).
Another (that you already mentioned partially) is that when I went
into WTF-mode the image suddenly changed from MW.org's local image
to ENWP's local File:Example.jpg.
Although I understand it doens't differentiate between local and
commons, I think we should keep wiki-independance in mind from the
start.
ie. using wgVariables instead of 'en'.
Op 1 jan 2011, om 15:40 heeft Jan Paul Posma het volgende geschreven:
What I would like is some discussion about
* if this approach (working pseudo-WYSIWYG instead of unattainable
perfect WYSIWYG) is the way to go
* if the code I wrote would be a suitable basis for a system we can
throw at the general public
* if anyone is willing to help me with that
As always, my code is GPL, and I would be more than happy if, in the
end, it would become official Foundation code, with staff that
supports it. Well, I can dream...
You seem to want to do exactly the same thing as I'm doing, but in
the browser only! Maybe you're interested in looking at
http://janpaulposma.nl/sle/wiki
, http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/User:JanPaul123/Sentence-
level_editing,
http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/2010-October/050031.html
and http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Sentence-level_editing
Anyway, I have also looked at doing parsing in the browser, which is
quite interesting. WikiBasha also uses JS parsing, so maybe it's a
good idea to look at that too. Trevor also made a JS parser, but I
think it's not in SVN (yet).
Regards,
Jan Paul
Right now there are three or four projects in active development
(including Magnus' WYSIWTF en Sentence-level editing).
How about working together ?
Compare what the current status of the different projects is, what are
the ultimate goals, which are closest to it ?
Then import from others to it to make one awesome thing.
Personaly I also prefer the non-WYSIWYG editing style. In other words:
Showing what things are but staying in (in)direct contact
with wikitext.
--
Krinkle
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Re: [Wikitech-l] WYSIWTF working demo
On 1/1/11, Magnus Manske magnusman...@googlemail.com wrote: Works for me (Mac, Chrome). Not tested anywhere else. Your OS/browser? That was on FF3.6, running under X11 on Mac OS. Not the most mainstream combo :) ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] WYSIWTF working demo
2011/1/1 Krinkle krinklem...@gmail.com:
Op 1 jan 2011, om 13:50 heeft Magnus Manske het volgende geschreven:
For the impatient, add
document.write('script type=text/javascript
src=http://toolserver.org/~magnus/wysiwtf/wysiwtf.js;\/script');
to your vector.js,
Okay, I've switched to Firefox 4 Beta on Mac and it works there.
One error I got though, when I click the WYSIWTF-tab it got stuck on
Parsing... modal box.
Console told me images.query [undefined] is not an object.
API call to
http://www.mediawiki.org/w/api.php?action=querygenerator=imagestitles=Sandboxprop=infoimlimit=500format=json
returned an empty array (the Sandbox page didn't contain any images at
the time).
Thanks, fixed now.
Another (that you already mentioned partially) is that when I went
into WTF-mode the image suddenly changed from MW.org's local image
to ENWP's local File:Example.jpg.
Although I understand it doens't differentiate between local and
commons, I think we should keep wiki-independance in mind from the
start.
ie. using wgVariables instead of 'en'.
Also fixed now, using wgContentLanguage and a different API query.
Op 1 jan 2011, om 15:40 heeft Jan Paul Posma het volgende geschreven:
What I would like is some discussion about
* if this approach (working pseudo-WYSIWYG instead of unattainable
perfect WYSIWYG) is the way to go
* if the code I wrote would be a suitable basis for a system we can
throw at the general public
* if anyone is willing to help me with that
As always, my code is GPL, and I would be more than happy if, in the
end, it would become official Foundation code, with staff that
supports it. Well, I can dream...
You seem to want to do exactly the same thing as I'm doing, but in
the browser only! Maybe you're interested in looking at
http://janpaulposma.nl/sle/wiki
, http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/User:JanPaul123/Sentence-
level_editing,
http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/2010-October/050031.html
and http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Sentence-level_editing
Anyway, I have also looked at doing parsing in the browser, which is
quite interesting. WikiBasha also uses JS parsing, so maybe it's a
good idea to look at that too. Trevor also made a JS parser, but I
think it's not in SVN (yet).
Regards,
Jan Paul
Right now there are three or four projects in active development
(including Magnus' WYSIWTF en Sentence-level editing).
How about working together ?
Compare what the current status of the different projects is, what are
the ultimate goals, which are closest to it ?
Then import from others to it to make one awesome thing.
Personaly I also prefer the non-WYSIWYG editing style. In other words:
Showing what things are but staying in (in)direct contact
with wikitext.
I'm not sure what's happening to that usability initiative template
folder thingy, which looked way cooler than mine, but never made a
live appearance.
The sentence-level editing looked great last time I checked, but
requires server-side mods IIRC, and seems to be limited to smaller
fixes. Maybe I'm wrong there, though. Not sure if we could join code,
as we do different things on the content preparation level; maybe
decent editor code? I could use some ;-)
I can see my solution and the sentence-level editing happily
co-existing, though!
Cheers,
Magnus
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Re: [Wikitech-l] What would be a perfect wiki syntax? (Re: WYSIWYG)
2011/1/1 lampak llam...@gmail.com: It could be fixed by forbidding leaving unclosed tags in templates. [...] I've tried to think how a perfect parser should work. Most of this has been already mentioned. I think it should work in two steps: first tokenise the code and transform it into an intermediate tree structure like [...] and so on. Then this structure could be transformed into a) HTML for display, b) JSON for the WYSIWYG editor. Thanks for this you wouldn't need to write a whole new JS parser. The editor would get a half-ready product. The JS code would need to be able to: a) transform this structure into HTML, b) modify the structure, c) transform this structure back into wikitext. Trevor Parscal already has a proof-of-concept parser that follows this philosophy pretty much to the letter. I don't think it's in our SVN repository yet (he said he would commit it some time ago) and I haven't succeeded in convincing him to reply on this list (holidays, I guess), but he's been playing around for it for about nine months now, on and off, and from what I've heard and seen it's promising and entirely in the spirit of your post. Roan Kattouw (Catrope) ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
[Wikitech-l] Open Allure: Software for wiki-based text-to-speech (TTS)
As part of my PhD research, the Open Allure Dialog System project is developing software to play wiki-based text-to-speech (TTS) scripts to add voiceovers to wiki pages. The project currently has free Mac and Windows download versions and open source Python code available at http://openallureds.org English, Portuguese and Italian are currently supported. Here's a demo video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_euNYfN9BY (3 minutes) If you are interested in this project, have any advice/suggestions or know of similar projects, please contact me. John Graves AUT University Auckland, New Zealand john.gra...@aut.ac.nz John Graves john.gra...@aut.ac.nz +64 21 213 8367 (mobile) http://bit.ly/JohnGravesLinkedIn ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Missing Section Headings
On Fri, Dec 31, 2010 at 6:25 PM, Krinkle krinklem...@gmail.com wrote: I doubt the addition of overflow:hidden has this consequence since that has been broadly tested in all kinds of browsers and has been default on several wikis for a long while. IIRC, overflow: hidden does indeed cause this issue on at least one very old browser, maybe IE5/Mac. I vaguely recall it being tried but reverted sometime several years ago. If memory serves and IE5/Mac is the issue, of course, we should just ignore it, because it would be crazy to try supporting it. ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Missing Section Headings
Op 2 jan 2011, om 01:13 heeft Aryeh Gregor het volgende geschreven: On Fri, Dec 31, 2010 at 6:25 PM, Krinkle krinklem...@gmail.com wrote: I doubt the addition of overflow:hidden has this consequence since that has been broadly tested in all kinds of browsers and has been default on several wikis for a long while. IIRC, overflow: hidden does indeed cause this issue on at least one very old browser, maybe IE5/Mac. I vaguely recall it being tried but reverted sometime several years ago. If memory serves and IE5/Mac is the issue, of course, we should just ignore it, because it would be crazy to try supporting it. Indeed, if Marc Riddell is using IE5/Mac then we can't help but to say that you should switch to a more recent browser, because MediaWIki has dropped support for it. Which doesn't mean everything has to brake. There are plenty of people among the developers who know especially much about the behaviour of older browsers and will try to implement proper fallbacks where possible. But overflow:hidden fixes many issues, and shows no problems in any of the supported browsers (not even IE6). -- Krinkle ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] How would you disrupt Wikipedia?
2010/12/29 Tim Starling tstarl...@wikimedia.org: One thing we can do is to reduce the sense of urgency. Further deployment of FlaggedRevs (pending changes) is the obvious way to do this. By hiding recent edits, admins can deal with bad edits in their own time, rather reacting in the heat of the moment. The actual effect of FlaggedRevs on revert behavior appears to be, if anything, to accelerate reverts. See Felipe Ortega's presentation at Wikimania 2010, page 18 and following: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Felipe_Ortega,_Flagged_revisions_study_results.pdf Performing review actions as quickly as possible is generally seen by FlaggedRevs-using communities as one of the key performance indicators connected with the feature. The moment of performing the review action also tends to be the moment of reverting. I see no evidence, on the other hand, that FlaggedRevs has contributed to a decreased sense of urgency anywhere it's been employed. It's important to note that FlaggedRevs edits aren't like patches awaiting review. They must be processed in order for anyone's subsequent edits to be reader-visible. Logged-in users, on the other hand, always see the latest version by default. These factors and others may contribute to a sense that edits must be processed as quickly as possible. I do fully agree with the rest of your note. We have sufficient data to show not only that the resistance against new edits as indicated by the revert ratio towards new users has increased significantly in the last few years, but also that only very few of the thousands of new users who complete their first 10 edits in any given month stick around. Our former contributors survey showed that among people with more than 10 edits/month who had stopped editing, 40% did so because of unpleasant experiences with other editors. http://strategy.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Former_contributors_survey_presentation_-_wiki.pdf While fixing the editing UI is absolutely essential, I strongly agree with your hypothesis that doing so without regard for the problematic social dynamics is likely to only accelerate people's negative experiences. Useful technology changes in the area of new user interaction are a lot harder to anticipate, however, and the only way we're going to learn is through lots of small experiments. We can follow in the footsteps of the GroupLens researchers and others who have experimented with interface changes such as changes to the revert process, and how these affect new user retention: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:EpochFail/NICE (See their publications to-date at http://www.grouplens.org/biblio ) Once we've identified paths that are clearly fruitful (e.g. if we find that an experiment with real-time chat yields useful results), we can throw more resources at them to implement proper functionality. Over the holidays, my mother shared her own newbie biting story. She's 64 years old and a professional adult educator. Her clearly constructive good faith edit in the FlaggedRevs-using German Wikipedia [1] was reverted within the minute it was made, without a comment of any kind. She explained that she doesn't have enough frustration tolerance to deal with this kind of behavior. It's quite likely that we won't be able to make Wikipedia frustration-free enough to retain someone like my mother as an editor, but we should be able to make it a significantly more pleasant experience than it is today. [1] http://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Transaktionsanalysediff=76794057oldid=75722161 -- Erik Möller Deputy Director, Wikimedia Foundation Support Free Knowledge: http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Donate ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Deprecating content_actions
Well OK, just hope none of what I wrote breaks.
function JidanniLessRedContentActions($sktemplate,$content_actions){
//Besides Monobook, (our target), this even also gets run by Vector skin but
doesn\'t affect it apparently 11/2010
if(array_key_exists('talk',
$content_actions)'new'==$content_actions['talk']['class']
!$sktemplate-mTitle-quickUserCan('createtalk')){unset($content_actions['talk'],$content_actions['watch']);}
if(array_key_exists('nstab-category',$content_actions)'selected
new'==$content_actions['nstab-category']['class']){
$content_actions['nstab-category']['class']='selected';}
return true;}
$wgHooks['SkinTemplateTabs'][]='JidanniLessRedContentActions'; //Bug 17963
function JidanniLessRedContentActionsVectorTypeSkins($sktemplate,$links){
if(isset($links['namespaces'])
is_array($links['namespaces'])
!$sktemplate-mTitle-quickUserCan('createtalk')){
foreach(array_keys($links['namespaces']) as $ns){
if(strpos($ns,'talk')!==false){
if(isset($links['namespaces'][$ns]['class'])
'new'==$links['namespaces'][$ns]['class']){
unset($links['namespaces'][$ns]);}}}
if(isset($links['actions']['watch'])){unset($links['actions']['watch']);}}
if(isset($links['namespaces']['category']['class'])
'selected new'==$links['namespaces']['category']['class']){
$links['namespaces']['category']['class']='selected';}
return true;}
$wgHooks['SkinTemplateNavigation'][]='JidanniLessRedContentActionsVectorTypeSkins';
Maybe I can even remove the first function soon.
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[Wikitech-l] Backup / Mirror of wikipedia dumps
Hi, I run a Data Storage / Backup company and I recently posted to reddit (redd.it/eus9z) about the fact that we have extra bandwidth/storage available and wanted to use it to do something good for the internet as a whole. From there I was referred to this http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mirroring_Wikimedia_project_XML_dumps and I saw you had yet to find a partner. In looking at the requirements 10TB of storage and 200 megabit (!20Mb/s sustained) would be trivial for our company to provide and we would be happy to provide it as a service free for the community. Please let me know what the next steps are so we can talk about the technical requirements to get this in place. Regards, -Austin W. McChord CEO Datto Inc. Phone: 203-665-6423 Fax: 203-665-0391 Email: amcch...@dattobackup.com Web: www.dattobackup.com ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Backup / Mirror of wikipedia dumps
At the moment the easiest way for you to mirror our content would be via wget. You would want to generate a list of the most recent completed dumps, or we might make such a list available on a biweekly basis. I need to think about the best mechanism for that. There is also an RSS feed which gets updated whenever a job is completed. We should also at the minimum provide the the user a static list of mirrors (even if that list contains only one site at first) so that people can reach you easily. Would you be willing to add your basic information to the mirroring page? You can contact me off list for coordinating the technical details, if you like. I really appreciate your offer; hopefully this will be the beginning of a new mirror-ful year :-) Ariel Στις 02-01-2011, ημέρα Κυρ, και ώρα 01:19 -0500, ο/η Austin McChord έγραψε: Hi, I run a Data Storage / Backup company and I recently posted to reddit (redd.it/eus9z) about the fact that we have extra bandwidth/storage available and wanted to use it to do something good for the internet as a whole. From there I was referred to this http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mirroring_Wikimedia_project_XML_dumps and I saw you had yet to find a partner. In looking at the requirements 10TB of storage and 200 megabit (!20Mb/s sustained) would be trivial for our company to provide and we would be happy to provide it as a service free for the community. Please let me know what the next steps are so we can talk about the technical requirements to get this in place. Regards, -Austin W. McChord CEO Datto Inc. Phone: 203-665-6423 Fax: 203-665-0391 Email: amcch...@dattobackup.com Web: www.dattobackup.com ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
