Re: [Wikitech-l] {{TemplatesThatWorkOnMobile}}

[Andy Mabbett]

On 7 October 2014 23:12, Ryan Kaldari  wrote:

> One thing that would help tremendously would be encouraging template
> standardization on the wikis. For example, on en.wiki, we currently have 60
> different quotation templates![1]

> 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Quotation_templates

Now down to 49, with several "Template for Deletion" discussions ongoing.

-- 
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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Re: [Wikitech-l] {{TemplatesThatWorkOnMobile}}

[Andy Mabbett]

On 11 October 2014 20:12, Andy Mabbett  wrote:
> In the recent past, I've done a *lot* of work on en.WP, encouraging
> the community to delete or merge redundant templates.
>
> I'm happy to hepl with doing so for quote templates.

I've nominated a bunch of quote templates for deletion, at:

   
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Templates_for_discussion/Log/2014_October_11

You can see for yourselves how that's going.

-- 
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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Re: [Wikitech-l] {{TemplatesThatWorkOnMobile}}

[Andy Mabbett]

On 7 October 2014 23:12, Ryan Kaldari  wrote:

> One thing that would help tremendously would be encouraging template
> standardization on the wikis. For example, on en.wiki, we currently have 60
> different quotation templates![1] And all of them have completely different
> inline styling (most of which don't work well on mobile). If there were
> only 10 quotation templates instead of 60 it would be a more manageable
> issue.

In the recent past, I've done a *lot* of work on en.WP, encouraging
the community to delete or merge redundant templates.

I'm happy to hepl with doing so for quote templates.

BTW, I've generally found that en.Wikipedia editors are unaware that
we have a different appearance on mobile, much less are willing to
take that into account when writing pages or making templates.

-- 
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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Re: [Wikitech-l] {{TemplatesThatWorkOnMobile}}

[Martijn Hoekstra]

On Oct 9, 2014 8:08 AM, "MZMcBride"  wrote:
>
> Helder wrote:
> >This is why we have proposals like
> >https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/GlobalTemplates
> >https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Global-Wiki
>
> Yes, a million times this. We must figure out a way to centralize
> templates so that maintenance is easier. The current system of per-project
> wiki templates really strains under scale as many wikis have few active
> editors and most of them are not technical.
>
> Regarding inline styling specifically, I feel like we had this exact
> conversation a year ago on Bugzilla or wikitech-l. As I recall, the gist
> of the previous discussion was that we need to better educate users
> about what good practice is, perhaps provide testing better tools (make it
> easier to see how it looks on mobile, as Brion suggests), and then slowly
> try to deprecate inline styling over the next few years.
>
> I'm curious to see where the "Allow styling in templates" request for
> comments goes (cf. ),
> particularly with regard to the goal of atomizing content, which I think
> the Parsoid and VisualEditor (Editing!) teams seem to want. While I
> probably generally agree with trying to kill inline styling, it does have
> seem to have a convenient advantage of being more easily encapsulated.
>
> Related: https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=35704
>
> MZMcBride

If everything here comes together, centralizing templates may be not such a
hot idea. The reason being, if we externalise style as the rfc proposes,
and externalize logic in Lua modules, a large part of what is left is
localization, which logically belongs on the local wiki - if we find a good
way to centralize style and modules obviously.

I realize that it's not everything that's left, there is also the markup
structure obviously, which is often a large part of a template, or
sometimes even all of the template, and splitting style off to a central
wiki while keeping the templates to which the style applies local seems off
as well. It is something to maybe keep in mind though, and give some
further thought.

I'd like to note that I'm really happy with this thread by the way. Jon
fixing the mess we leave behind on our on wiki template work obviously
doesn't scale. But Jon and others in development taking the lead through
some edits, so people become more aware of that mobile is, actually, a
thing, and how to deal with that with regard to styling could work.

--Martijn.

>
>
>
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Re: [Wikitech-l] {{TemplatesThatWorkOnMobile}}

[Florian Schmidt]

Hello,

> I'm also interested in some kind of easy "preview how this page will look on 
> mobile" in the editor, which would probably be a separate thing...

I took the liberty to take this idea and created a sample change for 
MobileFrontend: https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/#/c/166089/

With this patch you would be able to click "Mobile preview" right next to the 
"Show preview" button. In a new tab you will see the parsed content of your 
edit in the mobile skin.

I like the whole idea of a mobile preview for desktop editors, so maybe, we can 
reach this in any way :)

Freundliche Grüße / Kind regards
Florian

-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: wikitech-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org 
[mailto:wikitech-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] Im Auftrag von Brion Vibber
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 8. Oktober 2014 00:14
An: Wikimedia developers
Betreff: Re: [Wikitech-l] {{TemplatesThatWorkOnMobile}}

On Tue, Oct 7, 2014 at 3:02 PM, Jon Robson  wrote:

> On mobile we continuously get bugs related to inline styles in 
> templates. For example:
> https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=68001
>
> When these happen we usually spend time investigating, discover it is 
> because of a troublesome inline style in the template and then we 
> communicate this on the template talk page [1]
>
> However, rarely do these get replies and rarely does anything get fixed.
>
> Am I doing something wrong? Should I be posting these problems 
> elsewhere? It seems like a lot of templates do not have active 
> maintainers.
>

The wiki way is not to ask and wait for someone else to act, but to act 
directly in good faith and communicate what you did and why so that if there is 
disagreement it can be resolved afterwards.

Ultimately if we're unwilling to help edit and maintain the content and style 
of the wikis, we're going to be stuck working around bad styles forever.


> There has been an RFC [2] open for ages that when solved I hope will 
> lead to lots of discussions between developers and template 
> maintainers but right now it seems even without the tools we are 
> failing.
>
> How can we get better at making our template styles more mobile friendly?
>
> [2]
> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Allow_styling_in_t
> emplates
>

I'd like to revitalize this one; I'll do some testing this weekend and put it 
on the agenda for next week's RfC.

I'm also interested in some kind of easy "preview how this page will look on 
mobile" in the editor, which would probably be a separate thing...

-- brion
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Re: [Wikitech-l] {{TemplatesThatWorkOnMobile}}

[K. Peachey]

Perhaps someone could trail making a gadget that will display the template
loaded into the m.* mobile experience so its's easier for users to have a
look as a starting point?

On 9 October 2014 14:09, MZMcBride  wrote:

> Helder wrote:
> >This is why we have proposals like
> >https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/GlobalTemplates
> >https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Global-Wiki
>
> Yes, a million times this. We must figure out a way to centralize
> templates so that maintenance is easier. The current system of per-project
> wiki templates really strains under scale as many wikis have few active
> editors and most of them are not technical.
>
> Regarding inline styling specifically, I feel like we had this exact
> conversation a year ago on Bugzilla or wikitech-l. As I recall, the gist
> of the previous discussion was that we need to better educate users
> about what good practice is, perhaps provide testing better tools (make it
> easier to see how it looks on mobile, as Brion suggests), and then slowly
> try to deprecate inline styling over the next few years.
>
> I'm curious to see where the "Allow styling in templates" request for
> comments goes (cf. ),
> particularly with regard to the goal of atomizing content, which I think
> the Parsoid and VisualEditor (Editing!) teams seem to want. While I
> probably generally agree with trying to kill inline styling, it does have
> seem to have a convenient advantage of being more easily encapsulated.
>
> Related: https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=35704
>
> MZMcBride
>
>
>
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Re: [Wikitech-l] {{TemplatesThatWorkOnMobile}}

[MZMcBride]

Helder wrote:
>This is why we have proposals like
>https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/GlobalTemplates
>https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Global-Wiki

Yes, a million times this. We must figure out a way to centralize
templates so that maintenance is easier. The current system of per-project
wiki templates really strains under scale as many wikis have few active
editors and most of them are not technical.

Regarding inline styling specifically, I feel like we had this exact
conversation a year ago on Bugzilla or wikitech-l. As I recall, the gist
of the previous discussion was that we need to better educate users
about what good practice is, perhaps provide testing better tools (make it
easier to see how it looks on mobile, as Brion suggests), and then slowly
try to deprecate inline styling over the next few years.

I'm curious to see where the "Allow styling in templates" request for
comments goes (cf. ),
particularly with regard to the goal of atomizing content, which I think
the Parsoid and VisualEditor (Editing!) teams seem to want. While I
probably generally agree with trying to kill inline styling, it does have
seem to have a convenient advantage of being more easily encapsulated.

Related: https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=35704

MZMcBride



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Re: [Wikitech-l] {{TemplatesThatWorkOnMobile}}

[Helder .]

On Wed, Oct 8, 2014 at 4:00 AM, Derk-Jan Hartman
 wrote:
> 5: Remember that you need to do this for EACH AND EVERY individual wiki…
...or, from what I have seen, if you do it only on enwiki then users
will just create another fork of the template on smaller wikis and:
* keep using the OLD and BROKEN template whenever they can (easy for them)
* use the NEW and FIXED template only on pages which are translated
from enwiki (easy again... people are lazy)
This is why we have proposals like
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/GlobalTemplates
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Global-Wiki

Helder

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Re: [Wikitech-l] {{TemplatesThatWorkOnMobile}}

[Derk-Jan Hartman]

> On 8 okt. 2014, at 04:37, Dan Garry  wrote:
> 
> As members of the Mobile Team, it's our job to make the mobile platform the
> best it can be. If we have to edit templates to do that because they're
> causing significant display issues that are disrupting the platform, so be
> it. For example, let's say pie charts are completely broken on mobile and
> display incorrectly. Should we not fix it because it's "only aesthetic”?

Well… I would say you should fix it.. but editing the wiki is not like editing 
the source code of MediaWiki. There are conventions and methodologies in 
templates can be quite unfamiliar or unknown to developers. In the past, staff 
has made a couple mistakes here, so people tend to keep an eye on it.

If the community can trust you to not make mistakes, they generally accept any 
edit. Learn and build trust by:
1: Discuss problems on the talkpage. (You can leave a ‘please look at this 
talkpage’ note on VP/T).
2: Use the sandbox to illustrate your discussion when that makes sense.
3: If there is positive agreement or no response, yet you feel confident, then 
make the edit. Or make the editrequest.
4: Keep checking in for a few days to verify if there has been any fallout. 
Don’t disappear, if you are making edits to the wiki, you are part of the wiki.
5: Remember that you need to do this for EACH AND EVERY individual wiki… 

DJ


> Jon is very capable and his restraint in this matter demonstrates that. I
> trust him, like I would trust any administrator, to know when directly
> editing is appropriate (e.g. templates protected simply to fend off
> vandalism), and when making an edit request is more appropriate (e.g.
> particularly complex templates which need review of changes).
> 
> Dan
> 
> 
> On Tuesday, October 7, 2014, Brian Wolff  wrote:
> 
>> On Oct 7, 2014 10:03 PM, "Dan Garry" >
>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Jon,
>>> 
>>> Regarding editing specific templates, I'll echo Brion here. If a template
>>> is causing difficulties for your work and you feel like you know enough
>> to
>>> fix it, then fix it! That's the wiki way. If you don't have the rights to
>>> edit the template (e.g. because it's protected), then speak to Tomasz and
>>> he will try to get you the rights that you need.
>> 
>> Umm, is that really a good idea? Protected templates are protected for a
>> reason usually (at least on projects that ive worked on. Can't speak for
>> enwiki). {{Editprotected}} seems like a better option for those, even if
>> simply for political reasons, and if you find yourself making a lot of such
>> requests  why not ask the community how it feels about giving out advanced
>> rights.
>> 
>> Imho, wmf granted advanced rights should be reserved for more serious
>> issues than purely asethetic ones.
>> 
>> I agree with the setiment of just being bold for unprotected templates.
>> 
>> --bawolff
>> ___
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>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Dan Garry
> Associate Product Manager, Mobile Apps
> Wikimedia Foundation
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Re: [Wikitech-l] {{TemplatesThatWorkOnMobile}}

[Derk-Jan Hartman]

Jon,

1: Get templateeditor rights on your volunteer account, you can edit the 
majority of templates with that, and you only need to proof your skill with 
templates for that, which is a reasonably low barrier. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Template_editor
2: This whole stuff is mostly as far as it is going to get on en.wp without 
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Allow_styling_in_templates
What remains currently, even when consolidated and cleaned up, will still be 
thousands of lines of CSS, for what will only touch 1 % of the pages, so it has 
no business in Common.css, yet much of it requires media queries to really make 
a worthwhile improvement.
3: Whoever mentioned blockquotes… Just before I burned out on en.wp, I was 
working on 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Quotation_cleanup 


There is indeed a lot of work to do there, they are a mess.

DJ
 

> On 8 okt. 2014, at 03:16, Jon Robson  wrote:
> 
> On 7 Oct 2014 18:15, "Jon Robson"  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> On 7 Oct 2014 18:03, "Dan Garry"  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Jon,
>>> 
>>> Regarding editing specific templates, I'll echo Brion here. If a
> template
>>> is causing difficulties for your work and you feel like you know enough
> to
>>> fix it, then fix it! That's the wiki way. If you don't have the rights
> to
>>> edit the template (e.g. because it's protected), then speak to Tomasz
> and
>>> he will try to get you the rights that you need.
>> Sure but this isn't scalable. I need more people caring about this stuff
> other than me :)
>> 
>> Also currently the only way to deal with these issues is to move styles
> into Common.CSS which only really makes sense for widely used templates...
> Ideally I'd want some kind of sanity checking rather than doing it live
> which seems to be the current status quo. Changing HTML /CSS/JavaScript
> [without any kind of review]
> always felt uncomfortable to me.
>> 
>>> Regarding the broader issue of the fact that there are thousands of
> these
>>> kinds of templates, I will also echo Brion! We need to make mobile
> testing
>>> more visible to those who are creating those templates.
>>> 
>>> Dan
>>> 
>>> On 7 October 2014 15:14, Brion Vibber  wrote:
>>> 
 On Tue, Oct 7, 2014 at 3:02 PM, Jon Robson 
> wrote:
 
> On mobile we continuously get bugs related to inline styles in
> templates. For example:
> https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=68001
> 
> When these happen we usually spend time investigating, discover it
> is
> because of a troublesome inline style in the template and then we
> communicate this on the template talk page [1]
> 
> However, rarely do these get replies and rarely does anything get
> fixed.
> 
> Am I doing something wrong? Should I be posting these problems
> elsewhere? It seems like a lot of templates do not have active
> maintainers.
> 
 
 The wiki way is not to ask and wait for someone else to act, but to
> act
 directly in good faith and communicate what you did and why so that if
 there is disagreement it can be resolved afterwards.
 
 Ultimately if we're unwilling to help edit and maintain the content
> and
 style of the wikis, we're going to be stuck working around bad styles
 forever.
 
 
> There has been an RFC [2] open for ages that when solved I hope will
> lead to lots of discussions between developers and template
> maintainers but right now it seems even without the tools we are
> failing.
> 
> How can we get better at making our template styles more mobile
> friendly?
> 
> [2]
> 
 
> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Allow_styling_in_templates
> 
 
 I'd like to revitalize this one; I'll do some testing this weekend
> and put
 it on the agenda for next week's RfC.
 
 I'm also interested in some kind of easy "preview how this page will
> look
 on mobile" in the editor, which would probably be a separate thing...
 
 -- brion
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 Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
 https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> --
>>> Dan Garry
>>> Associate Product Manager, Mobile Apps
>>> Wikimedia Foundation
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Re: [Wikitech-l] {{TemplatesThatWorkOnMobile}}

[Dan Garry]

As members of the Mobile Team, it's our job to make the mobile platform the
best it can be. If we have to edit templates to do that because they're
causing significant display issues that are disrupting the platform, so be
it. For example, let's say pie charts are completely broken on mobile and
display incorrectly. Should we not fix it because it's "only aesthetic"?

Jon is very capable and his restraint in this matter demonstrates that. I
trust him, like I would trust any administrator, to know when directly
editing is appropriate (e.g. templates protected simply to fend off
vandalism), and when making an edit request is more appropriate (e.g.
particularly complex templates which need review of changes).

Dan


On Tuesday, October 7, 2014, Brian Wolff  wrote:

> On Oct 7, 2014 10:03 PM, "Dan Garry" >
> wrote:
> >
> > Jon,
> >
> > Regarding editing specific templates, I'll echo Brion here. If a template
> > is causing difficulties for your work and you feel like you know enough
> to
> > fix it, then fix it! That's the wiki way. If you don't have the rights to
> > edit the template (e.g. because it's protected), then speak to Tomasz and
> > he will try to get you the rights that you need.
>
> Umm, is that really a good idea? Protected templates are protected for a
> reason usually (at least on projects that ive worked on. Can't speak for
> enwiki). {{Editprotected}} seems like a better option for those, even if
> simply for political reasons, and if you find yourself making a lot of such
> requests  why not ask the community how it feels about giving out advanced
> rights.
>
> Imho, wmf granted advanced rights should be reserved for more serious
> issues than purely asethetic ones.
>
> I agree with the setiment of just being bold for unprotected templates.
>
> --bawolff
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-- 
Dan Garry
Associate Product Manager, Mobile Apps
Wikimedia Foundation
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Re: [Wikitech-l] {{TemplatesThatWorkOnMobile}}

[Brian Wolff]

On Oct 7, 2014 10:03 PM, "Dan Garry"  wrote:
>
> Jon,
>
> Regarding editing specific templates, I'll echo Brion here. If a template
> is causing difficulties for your work and you feel like you know enough to
> fix it, then fix it! That's the wiki way. If you don't have the rights to
> edit the template (e.g. because it's protected), then speak to Tomasz and
> he will try to get you the rights that you need.

Umm, is that really a good idea? Protected templates are protected for a
reason usually (at least on projects that ive worked on. Can't speak for
enwiki). {{Editprotected}} seems like a better option for those, even if
simply for political reasons, and if you find yourself making a lot of such
requests  why not ask the community how it feels about giving out advanced
rights.

Imho, wmf granted advanced rights should be reserved for more serious
issues than purely asethetic ones.

I agree with the setiment of just being bold for unprotected templates.

--bawolff
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Re: [Wikitech-l] {{TemplatesThatWorkOnMobile}}

[Brian Wolff]

On Oct 7, 2014 10:03 PM, "Dan Garry"  wrote:
>
> Jon,
>
> Regarding editing specific templates, I'll echo Brion here. If a template
> is causing difficulties for your work and you feel like you know enough to
> fix it, then fix it! That's the wiki way. If you don't have the rights to
> edit the template (e.g. because it's protected), then speak to Tomasz and
> he will try to get you the rights that you need.

Umm, is that really a good idea? Protected templates are protected for a
reason usually (at least on projects that ive worked on. Can't speak for
enwiki). {{Editprotected}} seems like a better option for those, even if
simply for political reasons, and if you find yourself making a lot of such
requests  why not ask the community how it feels about giving out advanced
rights.

Imho, wmf granted advanced rights should be reserved for more serious
issues than purely asethetic ones.

I agree with the setiment of just being bold for unprotected templates.

--bawolff
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Re: [Wikitech-l] {{TemplatesThatWorkOnMobile}}

[Jon Robson]

On 7 Oct 2014 18:15, "Jon Robson"  wrote:
>
>
> On 7 Oct 2014 18:03, "Dan Garry"  wrote:
> >
> > Jon,
> >
> > Regarding editing specific templates, I'll echo Brion here. If a
template
> > is causing difficulties for your work and you feel like you know enough
to
> > fix it, then fix it! That's the wiki way. If you don't have the rights
to
> > edit the template (e.g. because it's protected), then speak to Tomasz
and
> > he will try to get you the rights that you need.
> Sure but this isn't scalable. I need more people caring about this stuff
other than me :)
>
> Also currently the only way to deal with these issues is to move styles
into Common.CSS which only really makes sense for widely used templates...
Ideally I'd want some kind of sanity checking rather than doing it live
which seems to be the current status quo. Changing HTML /CSS/JavaScript
[without any kind of review]
always felt uncomfortable to me.
>
> > Regarding the broader issue of the fact that there are thousands of
these
> > kinds of templates, I will also echo Brion! We need to make mobile
testing
> > more visible to those who are creating those templates.
> >
> > Dan
> >
> > On 7 October 2014 15:14, Brion Vibber  wrote:
> >
> > > On Tue, Oct 7, 2014 at 3:02 PM, Jon Robson 
wrote:
> > >
> > > > On mobile we continuously get bugs related to inline styles in
> > > > templates. For example:
> > > > https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=68001
> > > >
> > > > When these happen we usually spend time investigating, discover it
is
> > > > because of a troublesome inline style in the template and then we
> > > > communicate this on the template talk page [1]
> > > >
> > > > However, rarely do these get replies and rarely does anything get
fixed.
> > > >
> > > > Am I doing something wrong? Should I be posting these problems
> > > > elsewhere? It seems like a lot of templates do not have active
> > > > maintainers.
> > > >
> > >
> > > The wiki way is not to ask and wait for someone else to act, but to
act
> > > directly in good faith and communicate what you did and why so that if
> > > there is disagreement it can be resolved afterwards.
> > >
> > > Ultimately if we're unwilling to help edit and maintain the content
and
> > > style of the wikis, we're going to be stuck working around bad styles
> > > forever.
> > >
> > >
> > > > There has been an RFC [2] open for ages that when solved I hope will
> > > > lead to lots of discussions between developers and template
> > > > maintainers but right now it seems even without the tools we are
> > > > failing.
> > > >
> > > > How can we get better at making our template styles more mobile
friendly?
> > > >
> > > > [2]
> > > >
> > >
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Allow_styling_in_templates
> > > >
> > >
> > > I'd like to revitalize this one; I'll do some testing this weekend
and put
> > > it on the agenda for next week's RfC.
> > >
> > > I'm also interested in some kind of easy "preview how this page will
look
> > > on mobile" in the editor, which would probably be a separate thing...
> > >
> > > -- brion
> > > ___
> > > Wikitech-l mailing list
> > > Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Dan Garry
> > Associate Product Manager, Mobile Apps
> > Wikimedia Foundation
> > ___
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> > Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
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Re: [Wikitech-l] {{TemplatesThatWorkOnMobile}}

[Jon Robson]

On 7 Oct 2014 18:03, "Dan Garry"  wrote:
>
> Jon,
>
> Regarding editing specific templates, I'll echo Brion here. If a template
> is causing difficulties for your work and you feel like you know enough to
> fix it, then fix it! That's the wiki way. If you don't have the rights to
> edit the template (e.g. because it's protected), then speak to Tomasz and
> he will try to get you the rights that you need.
Sure but this isn't scalable. I need more people caring about this stuff
other than me :)

Also currently the only way to deal with these issues is to move styles
into Common.CSS which only really makes sense for widely used templates...
Ideally I'd want some kind of sanity checking rather than doing it live
which seems to be the current status quo. Changing HTML /CSS/JavaScript
always felt uncomfortable to me.

> Regarding the broader issue of the fact that there are thousands of these
> kinds of templates, I will also echo Brion! We need to make mobile testing
> more visible to those who are creating those templates.
>
> Dan
>
> On 7 October 2014 15:14, Brion Vibber  wrote:
>
> > On Tue, Oct 7, 2014 at 3:02 PM, Jon Robson 
wrote:
> >
> > > On mobile we continuously get bugs related to inline styles in
> > > templates. For example:
> > > https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=68001
> > >
> > > When these happen we usually spend time investigating, discover it is
> > > because of a troublesome inline style in the template and then we
> > > communicate this on the template talk page [1]
> > >
> > > However, rarely do these get replies and rarely does anything get
fixed.
> > >
> > > Am I doing something wrong? Should I be posting these problems
> > > elsewhere? It seems like a lot of templates do not have active
> > > maintainers.
> > >
> >
> > The wiki way is not to ask and wait for someone else to act, but to act
> > directly in good faith and communicate what you did and why so that if
> > there is disagreement it can be resolved afterwards.
> >
> > Ultimately if we're unwilling to help edit and maintain the content and
> > style of the wikis, we're going to be stuck working around bad styles
> > forever.
> >
> >
> > > There has been an RFC [2] open for ages that when solved I hope will
> > > lead to lots of discussions between developers and template
> > > maintainers but right now it seems even without the tools we are
> > > failing.
> > >
> > > How can we get better at making our template styles more mobile
friendly?
> > >
> > > [2]
> > >
> >
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Allow_styling_in_templates
> > >
> >
> > I'd like to revitalize this one; I'll do some testing this weekend and
put
> > it on the agenda for next week's RfC.
> >
> > I'm also interested in some kind of easy "preview how this page will
look
> > on mobile" in the editor, which would probably be a separate thing...
> >
> > -- brion
> > ___
> > Wikitech-l mailing list
> > Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Dan Garry
> Associate Product Manager, Mobile Apps
> Wikimedia Foundation
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Re: [Wikitech-l] {{TemplatesThatWorkOnMobile}}

[Dan Garry]

Jon,

Regarding editing specific templates, I'll echo Brion here. If a template
is causing difficulties for your work and you feel like you know enough to
fix it, then fix it! That's the wiki way. If you don't have the rights to
edit the template (e.g. because it's protected), then speak to Tomasz and
he will try to get you the rights that you need.

Regarding the broader issue of the fact that there are thousands of these
kinds of templates, I will also echo Brion! We need to make mobile testing
more visible to those who are creating those templates.

Dan

On 7 October 2014 15:14, Brion Vibber  wrote:

> On Tue, Oct 7, 2014 at 3:02 PM, Jon Robson  wrote:
>
> > On mobile we continuously get bugs related to inline styles in
> > templates. For example:
> > https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=68001
> >
> > When these happen we usually spend time investigating, discover it is
> > because of a troublesome inline style in the template and then we
> > communicate this on the template talk page [1]
> >
> > However, rarely do these get replies and rarely does anything get fixed.
> >
> > Am I doing something wrong? Should I be posting these problems
> > elsewhere? It seems like a lot of templates do not have active
> > maintainers.
> >
>
> The wiki way is not to ask and wait for someone else to act, but to act
> directly in good faith and communicate what you did and why so that if
> there is disagreement it can be resolved afterwards.
>
> Ultimately if we're unwilling to help edit and maintain the content and
> style of the wikis, we're going to be stuck working around bad styles
> forever.
>
>
> > There has been an RFC [2] open for ages that when solved I hope will
> > lead to lots of discussions between developers and template
> > maintainers but right now it seems even without the tools we are
> > failing.
> >
> > How can we get better at making our template styles more mobile friendly?
> >
> > [2]
> >
> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Allow_styling_in_templates
> >
>
> I'd like to revitalize this one; I'll do some testing this weekend and put
> it on the agenda for next week's RfC.
>
> I'm also interested in some kind of easy "preview how this page will look
> on mobile" in the editor, which would probably be a separate thing...
>
> -- brion
> ___
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>



-- 
Dan Garry
Associate Product Manager, Mobile Apps
Wikimedia Foundation
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Re: [Wikitech-l] {{TemplatesThatWorkOnMobile}}

[K. Peachey]

Templates aren't protected by default =).

If they are protected there is generally a good reason such as heavy usage,
you can always put a comment on the talk page and tag it with
{{EditProtected}} which will summon someone with sysop rights.

You can also setup a /Sandbox page with the proposed changes so the person
that makes the changes can see the differences and make sure it works.

On 8 October 2014 10:48, Jon Robson  wrote:

> > The wiki way is not to ask and wait for someone else to act, but to act
> > directly in good faith and communicate what you did and why so that if
> > there is disagreement it can be resolved afterwards.
>
> Sadly I only have template edit rights on my staff account and I
> really don't like using that account. In addition to this there are
> hundreds of copies of the template I fix so this becomes a nightmare.
>
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Re: [Wikitech-l] {{TemplatesThatWorkOnMobile}}

[Jon Robson]

> The wiki way is not to ask and wait for someone else to act, but to act
> directly in good faith and communicate what you did and why so that if
> there is disagreement it can be resolved afterwards.

Sadly I only have template edit rights on my staff account and I
really don't like using that account. In addition to this there are
hundreds of copies of the template I fix so this becomes a nightmare.

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Re: [Wikitech-l] {{TemplatesThatWorkOnMobile}}

[Jon Robson]

On Tue, Oct 7, 2014 at 3:13 PM, Bináris  wrote:
> Is there a techguide anywhere on how to style templates to avoid mobile
> problems?

There are a few notes here -
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/ResourceLoader/Writing_a_MobileFrontend_friendly_ResourceLoader_module#Styling_for_mobile
but these apply to code rather than templates.

Also find examples of bad practices in
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Deprecating_inline_styles#Known_problematic_use_of_inline_styles

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Re: [Wikitech-l] {{TemplatesThatWorkOnMobile}}

[Isarra Yos]

On 07/10/14 22:17, Isarra Yos wrote:

On 07/10/14 22:02, Jon Robson wrote:

On mobile we continuously get bugs related to inline styles in
templates. For example:
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=68001

When these happen we usually spend time investigating, discover it is
because of a troublesome inline style in the template and then we
communicate this on the template talk page [1]

However, rarely do these get replies and rarely does anything get fixed.

Am I doing something wrong? Should I be posting these problems
elsewhere? It seems like a lot of templates do not have active
maintainers.

There has been an RFC [2] open for ages that when solved I hope will
lead to lots of discussions between developers and template
maintainers but right now it seems even without the tools we are
failing.

How can we get better at making our template styles more mobile 
friendly?


[1] 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Quotation#Padding_interferes_with_mobile_skin
[2] 
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Allow_styling_in_templates


In a lot of cases, it's likely nobody's actively watching the page, or 
necessarily has the skill to actually enact the change. Normally for 
these things the best bet is to either change it yourself if you have 
the rights, or put in an edit request.


See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Edit_requests for the 
long-winded explanation on enwp, but basically it boils down to 
slapping {{request edit}} on the talkpage with an explanation. That 
way people actually see the request.


-I


Er, that should have probably been {{edit protected}}, not request edit, 
sorry.




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Re: [Wikitech-l] {{TemplatesThatWorkOnMobile}}

[Brion Vibber]

On Tue, Oct 7, 2014 at 3:13 PM, Bináris  wrote:

> Is there a techguide anywhere on how to style templates to avoid mobile
> problems?
>

I'll write up some notes...

The first thing is to *test your pages on mobile*. The least one can do is
fire up a page in *.m.wikipedia.org in a desktop browser and make the
window narrow. Or, use your smartphone's browser if you have one.

Often, things can be reworked to cleanly handle both wide and narrow
windows; for instance:
* using inline-block or floats instead of tables or fixed percentage widths
to set things side-by-side

Sometimes it may be necessary to make the style more complex, using media
queries to do separate styling for wide or narrow screens (google for "CSS
media queries" to see how all this works). Currently there's no way to do
media queries in inline style attributes, which makes things hard for
templates.

If your template uses styles defined in MediaWiki:Common.css /
MediaWiki:Mobile.css you can define separate style overrides there, but you
have to be an admin to edit those etc so it's harder to deal with.

-- brion
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Re: [Wikitech-l] {{TemplatesThatWorkOnMobile}}

[Isarra Yos]

On 07/10/14 22:02, Jon Robson wrote:

On mobile we continuously get bugs related to inline styles in
templates. For example:
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=68001

When these happen we usually spend time investigating, discover it is
because of a troublesome inline style in the template and then we
communicate this on the template talk page [1]

However, rarely do these get replies and rarely does anything get fixed.

Am I doing something wrong? Should I be posting these problems
elsewhere? It seems like a lot of templates do not have active
maintainers.

There has been an RFC [2] open for ages that when solved I hope will
lead to lots of discussions between developers and template
maintainers but right now it seems even without the tools we are
failing.

How can we get better at making our template styles more mobile friendly?

[1] 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Quotation#Padding_interferes_with_mobile_skin
[2] 
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Allow_styling_in_templates


In a lot of cases, it's likely nobody's actively watching the page, or 
necessarily has the skill to actually enact the change. Normally for 
these things the best bet is to either change it yourself if you have 
the rights, or put in an edit request.


See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Edit_requests for the 
long-winded explanation on enwp, but basically it boils down to slapping 
{{request edit}} on the talkpage with an explanation. That way people 
actually see the request.


-I

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Re: [Wikitech-l] {{TemplatesThatWorkOnMobile}}

[Bináris]

Is there a techguide anywhere on how to style templates to avoid mobile
problems?
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Re: [Wikitech-l] {{TemplatesThatWorkOnMobile}}

[Brion Vibber]

On Tue, Oct 7, 2014 at 3:02 PM, Jon Robson  wrote:

> On mobile we continuously get bugs related to inline styles in
> templates. For example:
> https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=68001
>
> When these happen we usually spend time investigating, discover it is
> because of a troublesome inline style in the template and then we
> communicate this on the template talk page [1]
>
> However, rarely do these get replies and rarely does anything get fixed.
>
> Am I doing something wrong? Should I be posting these problems
> elsewhere? It seems like a lot of templates do not have active
> maintainers.
>

The wiki way is not to ask and wait for someone else to act, but to act
directly in good faith and communicate what you did and why so that if
there is disagreement it can be resolved afterwards.

Ultimately if we're unwilling to help edit and maintain the content and
style of the wikis, we're going to be stuck working around bad styles
forever.


> There has been an RFC [2] open for ages that when solved I hope will
> lead to lots of discussions between developers and template
> maintainers but right now it seems even without the tools we are
> failing.
>
> How can we get better at making our template styles more mobile friendly?
>
> [2]
> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Allow_styling_in_templates
>

I'd like to revitalize this one; I'll do some testing this weekend and put
it on the agenda for next week's RfC.

I'm also interested in some kind of easy "preview how this page will look
on mobile" in the editor, which would probably be a separate thing...

-- brion
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Re: [Wikitech-l] {{TemplatesThatWorkOnMobile}}

[Ryan Kaldari]

One thing that would help tremendously would be encouraging template
standardization on the wikis. For example, on en.wiki, we currently have 60
different quotation templates![1] And all of them have completely different
inline styling (most of which don't work well on mobile). If there were
only 10 quotation templates instead of 60 it would be a more manageable
issue. One of these days I'll start an on-wiki RfC about this.

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Quotation_templates

Ryan Kaldari

On Tue, Oct 7, 2014 at 3:02 PM, Jon Robson  wrote:

> On mobile we continuously get bugs related to inline styles in
> templates. For example:
> https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=68001
>
> When these happen we usually spend time investigating, discover it is
> because of a troublesome inline style in the template and then we
> communicate this on the template talk page [1]
>
> However, rarely do these get replies and rarely does anything get fixed.
>
> Am I doing something wrong? Should I be posting these problems
> elsewhere? It seems like a lot of templates do not have active
> maintainers.
>
> There has been an RFC [2] open for ages that when solved I hope will
> lead to lots of discussions between developers and template
> maintainers but right now it seems even without the tools we are
> failing.
>
> How can we get better at making our template styles more mobile friendly?
>
> [1]
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Quotation#Padding_interferes_with_mobile_skin
> [2]
> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Allow_styling_in_templates
>
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Re: [Wikitech-l] {{TemplatesThatWorkOnMobile}}

[Jon Robson]

(See also https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=35704 for
lots of examples of broken template/css combos)

On Tue, Oct 7, 2014 at 3:02 PM, Jon Robson  wrote:
> On mobile we continuously get bugs related to inline styles in
> templates. For example:
> https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=68001
>
> When these happen we usually spend time investigating, discover it is
> because of a troublesome inline style in the template and then we
> communicate this on the template talk page [1]
>
> However, rarely do these get replies and rarely does anything get fixed.
>
> Am I doing something wrong? Should I be posting these problems
> elsewhere? It seems like a lot of templates do not have active
> maintainers.
>
> There has been an RFC [2] open for ages that when solved I hope will
> lead to lots of discussions between developers and template
> maintainers but right now it seems even without the tools we are
> failing.
>
> How can we get better at making our template styles more mobile friendly?
>
> [1] 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Quotation#Padding_interferes_with_mobile_skin
> [2] 
> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Allow_styling_in_templates

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