Re: [WISPA] High Throughput Licensed vs. Unlicensed - change of topic -- customers / AP

[Scott Carullo]

Or AP/subscriber ratio is super low where we dont usually have more than a 
dozen or so but this is necessary for selling optimal speed and providing 
quality voip services.

5MB speeds to our customers doesn't impress them, 10-20 does.  Its a tough 
market here with lots of competition.  VoIP gets a bit hairy over about 12 
customers on an ap pulling that kind of bw.  We have lots of APs / Towers 
:)

Scott Carullo
Brevard Wireless
321-205-1100 x102

 Original Message 
> From: "Travis Johnson" 
> Sent: Saturday, April 11, 2009 12:11 AM
> To: "WISPA General List" 
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] High Throughput Licensed vs. Unlicensed - change of 
topic -- customers / AP
> 
> 


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Re: [WISPA] High Throughput Licensed vs. Unlicensed - change of topic -- customers / AP

[Travis Johnson]

Hi,

I think that's maybe a little high... we have a Canopy AP right now
with 100 users on it... about 10% business and 90% residential and
it's probably bringing in about $3,500 / month. We will probably load
it up to about 120 users total, at which point it will be around $4,000
/ month.

Travis
Microserv

Charles Wu wrote:

  Which begs an interesting point -- how much revenue / AP?

I would think $5k / month for a 20 MHz chunk of 5.8 spectrum, while a bit on the higher side, isn't an unreasonable goal

Using Canopy...you have 14 Mb aggregate

Selling for $50 / month residential -- that's 100 customers sharing 14 Mb
Splitting between $100 / month business and $50 / month residential (for better traffic shaping) -- that's now

20 business customers during the day time (8-5)
60 residential customers in the afternoon / evening (4-12)

Now obviously, there will always be places where you're shooting into a hole, or there aren't that many homes / business being covered, blah blah blah blah -- but I don't think $5k / month / AP is an unreasonable goal

Thoughts? Comments?

-Charles

-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Scott Carullo
Sent: Friday, April 10, 2009 5:56 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] High Throughput Licensed vs. Unlicensed


This has been an outstanding thread I have enjoyed reading - and learned a 
bit in the process...  thanks.

I'll just add that while we are trying to keep the numbers trained to a 
common wisp - either you guys have a lucky horse shoe or achieving a 
$5000/mo revenue on one ap is a bit outside the avg...  At least for 
discussion sake.  But - even at 1/5th of that your argument still holds 
true for the most part.  Its just that you add in 900mhz (not as common) 
and all the lower power 5Ghz spectrum available now, 2.4Ghz etc and also 
mention you can run MT stuff on 10Mhz channels and you just effectively 
doubled your options based on what type of clients you are servicing etc... 
 Then theres radios that have GPS sync for spectrum reuse etc and the 
conversation starts to get a lot more complex :)

But, in any case this has been an eye-opening discussion...  

Scott Carullo
Brevard Wireless
321-205-1100 x102

 Original Message 
  
  
From: "Charles Wu" 

  
  
  
  
Sent: Friday, April 10, 2009 2:47 PM
To: "WISPA General List" 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] High Throughput Licensed vs. Unlicensed



  I do see Travis's point about the longer range shots, however.   I've 
got a 35, 45 and 65 mile shots with StarOS and they work just fine but 
only put out about 18-25meg at those distances.   That's enough for me, 
  

  
  
  
  

  but I can see where you would want more capacity and I suppose that 
within that narrow definition, a PTP600 would be better than a licensed 
  

  
  
  
  

  link.
  

Make no mistake, the PTP600, even though it's almost 5 years old, is 

  
  still one (if not the) best UL radio on the market from a pure 
technological perspective -- no other radio has it's combination of 1024FFT 
OFDM, Space-Time-Coding, MIMO, etc
  
  
Makes you wonder what planet Motorola / Orthogon raided to get the 

  
  engineers who built that radio =)
  
  
And I'm sure many on the list can attest to the wonderful things that a 

  
  PTP600 does / can do
  
  
However, the discussion has to come back to the reality that we don't 

  
  work for the government (and can't print money or write stimulus bills on a 
whim), and as a result, have to figure out a way to make a buck so we can 
feed the dog, buy gas, pay for those ski trips in Utah...
  
  
That said, we get back to "bang for buck" or "good enough"

True, the PTP600 will generally work for all scenarios, but it's akin to 

  
  killing a bug with a nuclear warhead -- it's a lot more cost effective (and 
there's less collateral damage) if you just step on it with your shoe
  
  
So, for the 1% of times when you need to shoot 50+ miles while bouncing 

  
  off 2 different mountains, the PTP600 will be your best bet
  
  
But for the other 90% of the time, when you have a 10-20 mile shot and 

  
  want something that reliable, carrier-class, and interference / spectrum 
isn't an issue, many are using Mikrotiks / StarOS / Trango Atlas / name 
your own cheap but decent proprietary Atheros-based system out there
  
  
Now, I'm personally extremely cheap, but the argument is over because you 

  
  can't just look at up-front price because long-term cost is just as (if not 
more) important when talking about WISP networks
  
  
That said, being a slow day, it's worth exercising one's mind to analyze 

  
  possible "what-if" alternative situations -- bear with me here and follow 
my logic here...
  
  
The MOST VALUABLE ASSET of any WISP is HIGH POWER MULTIPOINT SPECTRUM 
  

Re: [WISPA] High Throughput Licensed vs. Unlicensed - change of topic -- customers / AP

[Charles Wu]

Which begs an interesting point -- how much revenue / AP?

I would think $5k / month for a 20 MHz chunk of 5.8 spectrum, while a bit on 
the higher side, isn't an unreasonable goal

Using Canopy...you have 14 Mb aggregate

Selling for $50 / month residential -- that's 100 customers sharing 14 Mb
Splitting between $100 / month business and $50 / month residential (for better 
traffic shaping) -- that's now

20 business customers during the day time (8-5)
60 residential customers in the afternoon / evening (4-12)

Now obviously, there will always be places where you're shooting into a hole, 
or there aren't that many homes / business being covered, blah blah blah blah 
-- but I don't think $5k / month / AP is an unreasonable goal

Thoughts? Comments?

-Charles

-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf 
Of Scott Carullo
Sent: Friday, April 10, 2009 5:56 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] High Throughput Licensed vs. Unlicensed


This has been an outstanding thread I have enjoyed reading - and learned a 
bit in the process...  thanks.

I'll just add that while we are trying to keep the numbers trained to a 
common wisp - either you guys have a lucky horse shoe or achieving a 
$5000/mo revenue on one ap is a bit outside the avg...  At least for 
discussion sake.  But - even at 1/5th of that your argument still holds 
true for the most part.  Its just that you add in 900mhz (not as common) 
and all the lower power 5Ghz spectrum available now, 2.4Ghz etc and also 
mention you can run MT stuff on 10Mhz channels and you just effectively 
doubled your options based on what type of clients you are servicing etc... 
 Then theres radios that have GPS sync for spectrum reuse etc and the 
conversation starts to get a lot more complex :)

But, in any case this has been an eye-opening discussion...  

Scott Carullo
Brevard Wireless
321-205-1100 x102

 Original Message 
> From: "Charles Wu" 

> Sent: Friday, April 10, 2009 2:47 PM
> To: "WISPA General List" 
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] High Throughput Licensed vs. Unlicensed
> 
> >I do see Travis's point about the longer range shots, however.   I've 
> >got a 35, 45 and 65 mile shots with StarOS and they work just fine but 
> >only put out about 18-25meg at those distances.   That's enough for me, 

> >but I can see where you would want more capacity and I suppose that 
> >within that narrow definition, a PTP600 would be better than a licensed 

> >link.
> 
> Make no mistake, the PTP600, even though it's almost 5 years old, is 
still one (if not the) best UL radio on the market from a pure 
technological perspective -- no other radio has it's combination of 1024FFT 
OFDM, Space-Time-Coding, MIMO, etc
> 
> Makes you wonder what planet Motorola / Orthogon raided to get the 
engineers who built that radio =)
> 
> And I'm sure many on the list can attest to the wonderful things that a 
PTP600 does / can do
> 
> However, the discussion has to come back to the reality that we don't 
work for the government (and can't print money or write stimulus bills on a 
whim), and as a result, have to figure out a way to make a buck so we can 
feed the dog, buy gas, pay for those ski trips in Utah...
> 
> That said, we get back to "bang for buck" or "good enough"
> 
> True, the PTP600 will generally work for all scenarios, but it's akin to 
killing a bug with a nuclear warhead -- it's a lot more cost effective (and 
there's less collateral damage) if you just step on it with your shoe
> 
> So, for the 1% of times when you need to shoot 50+ miles while bouncing 
off 2 different mountains, the PTP600 will be your best bet
> 
> But for the other 90% of the time, when you have a 10-20 mile shot and 
want something that reliable, carrier-class, and interference / spectrum 
isn't an issue, many are using Mikrotiks / StarOS / Trango Atlas / name 
your own cheap but decent proprietary Atheros-based system out there
> 
> Now, I'm personally extremely cheap, but the argument is over because you 
can't just look at up-front price because long-term cost is just as (if not 
more) important when talking about WISP networks
> 
> That said, being a slow day, it's worth exercising one's mind to analyze 
possible "what-if" alternative situations -- bear with me here and follow 
my logic here...
> 
> The MOST VALUABLE ASSET of any WISP is HIGH POWER MULTIPOINT SPECTRUM 
(b/c ultimately, it's the only thing that generates revenue, and like it or 
not, the #1 determinant in valuing a WISP, or any business for the matter, 
is EBITDA)
> 
> In optimal conditions, there's 125 MHz of clean spectrum (6 channels)
> Assuming you can make $5k / month per AP (or channel) -- as spectrum gets 
limited, the decision will ultimately boil down to
> 
> 1. Pay $2k for a cheap Atheros based backhaul to bring 30 Mb to your 
tower and lose 1 channel (or $5k / month in revenue)
> 
> 2. Run that backhaul in turbo mode, get 50 Mb at your tower, and

Re: [WISPA] 10 GigE

[RickG]

No, it was Imagestream.

On Fri, Apr 10, 2009 at 3:16 PM, Josh Luthman
 wrote:
> Was it Netgear?
>
> Josh Luthman
> Office: 937-552-2340
> Direct: 937-552-2343
> 1100 Wayne St
> Suite 1337
> Troy, OH 45373
>
> Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly.
> --- Henry Spencer
>
>
> On Fri, Apr 10, 2009 at 3:11 PM, RickG  wrote:
>
>> Over the years, I've done a lot of work for Fortune 1000 companies.
>> One time, as an alternative to Cisco, I suggested another product and
>> was laughed out of the room. -RickG
>>
>> On Fri, Apr 10, 2009 at 8:12 AM,   wrote:
>> >> All the hard core routing and switching experts I know laugh when
>> >> someone suggests Cisco.
>> >>
>> >> Cisco is like the WalMart of networking equipment.  If you need
>> >> something, chances are that they have something there that will mostly
>> >> do what it is that you need.  But if you need something for some
>> >> specialized need, then chances are you need to go to Juniper, Foundry,
>> >> Nortel, etc.
>> >>
>> > Of course if you had sent the above to the NANOG list they would be
>> > laughing at you. Cisco and Juniper alone are the reining champs of the
>> > high-end routing world. Foundry and Nortel are simply not even
>> considered.
>> > Right now, the Cisco CRS-1 is considered the best equipment available.
>> >
>> > Regardless, talking about super high-end routers when Mike is only
>> looking
>> > for a few 10 GigE ports is silly. A Cisco 6500/7600 with sup720-3bxl
>> along
>> > with your 10 GigE card of choice is typically what is deployed today.
>> > There is a newer option from Cisco using one of the ASR series routers.
>> > Those will cost you roughly $25k to get started in any reasonable
>> > configuration. Whereas the sup720-3bxl option will likely cost you only
>> > $25k well equiped with a variety of ports. I would guess a sup720-3bxl
>> > platform with 48 10/100/1000 ports, 48 SFP ports, and 4 10 GigE ports
>> > would run about $30k used.
>> >
>> > It is worth noting that the sup720-3bxl has enough TCAM to support up to
>> 1
>> > million routes and has a backplane that can support 720Gbps.
>> >
>> > -Matt
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> 
>> > WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>> > http://signup.wispa.org/
>> >
>> 
>> >
>> > WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>> >
>> > Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
>> > http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>> >
>> > Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> 
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>> http://signup.wispa.org/
>>
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>>
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>
>
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[WISPA] Time Warner Tests $150-Per-Month Unlimited Internet

[Eje Gustafsson]

Not seen anyone post this article but think it is of interest to people on
the list.

 

http://www.informationweek.com/news/services/data/showArticle.jhtml?articleI
D=216500302
 &subSection=News

 

/ Eje




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Re: [WISPA] GigE pricing

[Mike Hammett]

Hurricane Electric is down to $2/meg.  Level 3 can be $7 at 1500 megs. 
These are in carrier hotels.


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com



--
From: "Gino Villarini" 
Sent: Friday, April 10, 2009 4:45 PM
To: "WISPA General List" ; "Motorola Canopy User Group" 

Subject: [WISPA] GigE pricing

>
> Anyone with GigE connectionts that could share how much are you paying
> for it?
>
> Gino
> Sent from my Motorola Startac...
>
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
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> 
>
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>
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> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
> 



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Re: [WISPA] GigE pricing

[mliotta]

Assuming a 100 meg commit on a GigE port with a 1 year term at a major
carrier hotel between $8 and $21 per meg depending on the carrier and your
ratio. These days Cogent's pricing is no longer the market leader.
Hurricane seems to have taken that up with their $3 per meg for a full
GigE.

Anyway... bandwidth pricing at major carrier hotels is now so low that is
no longer matters much. The big issue now is cross-connect fees have
increased in some cases causing them to cost more than the circuit itself.
For example, you can get 10 megs from Cogent for $100 MRC, but the
cross-connect will likely cost between $75 and $275 MRC.

We also have extremely flexible terms for fellow WISPs. See
http://as35985.peeringdb.com/ for information on the major carrier hotels
we are located at.

-Matt

>
> Anyone with GigE connectionts that could share how much are you paying
> for it?
>
> Gino
> Sent from my Motorola Startac...
>
>
>
> 
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Re: [WISPA] High Throughput Licensed vs. Unlicensed

[Scott Carullo]

This has been an outstanding thread I have enjoyed reading - and learned a 
bit in the process...  thanks.

I'll just add that while we are trying to keep the numbers trained to a 
common wisp - either you guys have a lucky horse shoe or achieving a 
$5000/mo revenue on one ap is a bit outside the avg...  At least for 
discussion sake.  But - even at 1/5th of that your argument still holds 
true for the most part.  Its just that you add in 900mhz (not as common) 
and all the lower power 5Ghz spectrum available now, 2.4Ghz etc and also 
mention you can run MT stuff on 10Mhz channels and you just effectively 
doubled your options based on what type of clients you are servicing etc... 
 Then theres radios that have GPS sync for spectrum reuse etc and the 
conversation starts to get a lot more complex :)

But, in any case this has been an eye-opening discussion...  

Scott Carullo
Brevard Wireless
321-205-1100 x102

 Original Message 
> From: "Charles Wu" 

> Sent: Friday, April 10, 2009 2:47 PM
> To: "WISPA General List" 
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] High Throughput Licensed vs. Unlicensed
> 
> >I do see Travis's point about the longer range shots, however.   I've 
> >got a 35, 45 and 65 mile shots with StarOS and they work just fine but 
> >only put out about 18-25meg at those distances.   That's enough for me, 

> >but I can see where you would want more capacity and I suppose that 
> >within that narrow definition, a PTP600 would be better than a licensed 

> >link.
> 
> Make no mistake, the PTP600, even though it's almost 5 years old, is 
still one (if not the) best UL radio on the market from a pure 
technological perspective -- no other radio has it's combination of 1024FFT 
OFDM, Space-Time-Coding, MIMO, etc
> 
> Makes you wonder what planet Motorola / Orthogon raided to get the 
engineers who built that radio =)
> 
> And I'm sure many on the list can attest to the wonderful things that a 
PTP600 does / can do
> 
> However, the discussion has to come back to the reality that we don't 
work for the government (and can't print money or write stimulus bills on a 
whim), and as a result, have to figure out a way to make a buck so we can 
feed the dog, buy gas, pay for those ski trips in Utah...
> 
> That said, we get back to "bang for buck" or "good enough"
> 
> True, the PTP600 will generally work for all scenarios, but it's akin to 
killing a bug with a nuclear warhead -- it's a lot more cost effective (and 
there's less collateral damage) if you just step on it with your shoe
> 
> So, for the 1% of times when you need to shoot 50+ miles while bouncing 
off 2 different mountains, the PTP600 will be your best bet
> 
> But for the other 90% of the time, when you have a 10-20 mile shot and 
want something that reliable, carrier-class, and interference / spectrum 
isn't an issue, many are using Mikrotiks / StarOS / Trango Atlas / name 
your own cheap but decent proprietary Atheros-based system out there
> 
> Now, I'm personally extremely cheap, but the argument is over because you 
can't just look at up-front price because long-term cost is just as (if not 
more) important when talking about WISP networks
> 
> That said, being a slow day, it's worth exercising one's mind to analyze 
possible "what-if" alternative situations -- bear with me here and follow 
my logic here...
> 
> The MOST VALUABLE ASSET of any WISP is HIGH POWER MULTIPOINT SPECTRUM 
(b/c ultimately, it's the only thing that generates revenue, and like it or 
not, the #1 determinant in valuing a WISP, or any business for the matter, 
is EBITDA)
> 
> In optimal conditions, there's 125 MHz of clean spectrum (6 channels)
> Assuming you can make $5k / month per AP (or channel) -- as spectrum gets 
limited, the decision will ultimately boil down to
> 
> 1. Pay $2k for a cheap Atheros based backhaul to bring 30 Mb to your 
tower and lose 1 channel (or $5k / month in revenue)
> 
> 2. Run that backhaul in turbo mode, get 50 Mb at your tower, and now lose 
2 channels (or $10k / month in revenue)
> 
> 3. Pay an extra $10k for a LICENSED BACKHAUL that frees up more spectrum 
for multipoint, and never have to worry about interference on your backhaul 
ever again -- and make an extra $5-10k / month b/c you can add more 
customers on your tower
> 
> Some food for thought =)
> 
> -Charles
> 
> 
> 


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Re: [WISPA] High Throughput Licensed vs. Unlicensed

[Tom DeReggi]

Actually, I was referring to more in the line with other Unlicensed 
Products. :-)


Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


  - Original Message - 
  From: Travis Johnson 
  To: WISPA General List 
  Sent: Friday, April 10, 2009 6:10 PM
  Subject: Re: [WISPA] High Throughput Licensed vs. Unlicensed


  I agree... I would probably purchase a few of the PTP600 radio sets if they 
were priced more in-line with current offerings of the licensed products. :)

  Travis
  Microserv

  Tom DeReggi wrote: 
Which is why Moto/Ortho needs to look at lowering their price of PTP600, and 
making it back on volume.

Trango Licensed Products are a PTP600 killer, 95% of the time.
I'd argue that the Tlink45 also is 95% of the time, based on their periodic 
promo pricing.

There is no question that the PTP600 is one of the finest UL PTP radios out 
there, but that does WISPs absolutely no good, if they won't sell, and only 
sit on manufacturer's warehouse shelves.

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: "Charles Wu" 

To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Friday, April 10, 2009 2:46 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] High Throughput Licensed vs. Unlicensed


  I do see Travis's point about the longer range shots, however.   I've
got a 35, 45 and 65 mile shots with StarOS and they work just fine but
only put out about 18-25meg at those distances.   That's enough for me,
but I can see where you would want more capacity and I suppose that
within that narrow definition, a PTP600 would be better than a licensed
link.
  Make no mistake, the PTP600, even though it's almost 5 years old, is 
still 
one (if not the) best UL radio on the market from a pure technological 
perspective -- no other radio has it's combination of 1024FFT OFDM, 
Space-Time-Coding, MIMO, etc

Makes you wonder what planet Motorola / Orthogon raided to get the 
engineers who built that radio =)

And I'm sure many on the list can attest to the wonderful things that a 
PTP600 does / can do

However, the discussion has to come back to the reality that we don't work 
for the government (and can't print money or write stimulus bills on a 
whim), and as a result, have to figure out a way to make a buck so we can 
feed the dog, buy gas, pay for those ski trips in Utah...

That said, we get back to "bang for buck" or "good enough"

True, the PTP600 will generally work for all scenarios, but it's akin to 
killing a bug with a nuclear warhead -- it's a lot more cost effective 
(and there's less collateral damage) if you just step on it with your shoe

So, for the 1% of times when you need to shoot 50+ miles while bouncing 
off 2 different mountains, the PTP600 will be your best bet

But for the other 90% of the time, when you have a 10-20 mile shot and 
want something that reliable, carrier-class, and interference / spectrum 
isn't an issue, many are using Mikrotiks / StarOS / Trango Atlas / name 
your own cheap but decent proprietary Atheros-based system out there

Now, I'm personally extremely cheap, but the argument is over because you 
can't just look at up-front price because long-term cost is just as (if 
not more) important when talking about WISP networks

That said, being a slow day, it's worth exercising one's mind to analyze 
possible "what-if" alternative situations -- bear with me here and follow 
my logic here...

The MOST VALUABLE ASSET of any WISP is HIGH POWER MULTIPOINT SPECTRUM (b/c 
ultimately, it's the only thing that generates revenue, and like it or 
not, the #1 determinant in valuing a WISP, or any business for the matter, 
is EBITDA)

In optimal conditions, there's 125 MHz of clean spectrum (6 channels)
Assuming you can make $5k / month per AP (or channel) -- as spectrum gets 
limited, the decision will ultimately boil down to

1. Pay $2k for a cheap Atheros based backhaul to bring 30 Mb to your tower 
and lose 1 channel (or $5k / month in revenue)

2. Run that backhaul in turbo mode, get 50 Mb at your tower, and now lose 
2 channels (or $10k / month in revenue)

3. Pay an extra $10k for a LICENSED BACKHAUL that frees up more spectrum 
for multipoint, and never have to worry about interference on your 
backhaul ever again -- and make an extra $5-10k / month b/c you can add 
more customers on your tower

Some food for thought =)

-Charles



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WISPA

Re: [WISPA] GigE pricing

[Tom DeReggi]

Cogent is no longer the cheapest, when you reach GigE levels. We'll be 
dropping them soon.
Cogent is real big on only discounting for long terms, they are pushing the 
3yr or 10gb, to get the attractive discounts.
Also note some carrier's Gig-E transport can have different tiers based on 
how its delivered, (dedicated port/path end to end, shared path along the 
way, the capacity SLA on it.)

The secret to getting good Gig-E pricing, is buying transit from already lit 
buildings, that have adequate competition. So Cost is not duplicated on 
transit and transport.
If there is a switch and fiber already there, it costs the provider next to 
nothing to give you Gig-E access.
 If buying in Colo centers, and doing higher download traffiic, sometimes 
better price can be gotten from web hosts than from transit providers.

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: "Brad Belton" 
To: "'WISPA General List'" 
Sent: Friday, April 10, 2009 6:06 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] GigE pricing


> That's a pretty open ended question.
>
> Depends on location-location-location, commit level, term length, carrier
> just to name a few items that can influence the price.
>
> Cogent's website says they are the home of the $4 Megabit, but for some
> reason 99.99% of the places I ask for that deal they can't deliver
> it...
>
> Best,
>
>
> Brad
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
> Behalf Of Gino Villarini
> Sent: Friday, April 10, 2009 4:46 PM
> To: WISPA General List; Motorola Canopy User Group
> Subject: [WISPA] GigE pricing
>
>
> Anyone with GigE connectionts that could share how much are you paying
> for it?
>
> Gino
> Sent from my Motorola Startac...
>
>
>
> 
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> 
> 
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>
>
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Re: [WISPA] High Throughput Licensed vs. Unlicensed

[Travis Johnson]

I agree... I would probably purchase a few of the PTP600 radio sets if
they were priced more in-line with current offerings of the licensed
products. :)

Travis
Microserv

Tom DeReggi wrote:

  Which is why Moto/Ortho needs to look at lowering their price of PTP600, and 
making it back on volume.

Trango Licensed Products are a PTP600 killer, 95% of the time.
I'd argue that the Tlink45 also is 95% of the time, based on their periodic 
promo pricing.

There is no question that the PTP600 is one of the finest UL PTP radios out 
there, but that does WISPs absolutely no good, if they won't sell, and only 
sit on manufacturer's warehouse shelves.

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: "Charles Wu" 

To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Friday, April 10, 2009 2:46 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] High Throughput Licensed vs. Unlicensed


  
  

  I do see Travis's point about the longer range shots, however.   I've
got a 35, 45 and 65 mile shots with StarOS and they work just fine but
only put out about 18-25meg at those distances.   That's enough for me,
but I can see where you would want more capacity and I suppose that
within that narrow definition, a PTP600 would be better than a licensed
link.
  

Make no mistake, the PTP600, even though it's almost 5 years old, is still 
one (if not the) best UL radio on the market from a pure technological 
perspective -- no other radio has it's combination of 1024FFT OFDM, 
Space-Time-Coding, MIMO, etc

Makes you wonder what planet Motorola / Orthogon raided to get the 
engineers who built that radio =)

And I'm sure many on the list can attest to the wonderful things that a 
PTP600 does / can do

However, the discussion has to come back to the reality that we don't work 
for the government (and can't print money or write stimulus bills on a 
whim), and as a result, have to figure out a way to make a buck so we can 
feed the dog, buy gas, pay for those ski trips in Utah...

That said, we get back to "bang for buck" or "good enough"

True, the PTP600 will generally work for all scenarios, but it's akin to 
killing a bug with a nuclear warhead -- it's a lot more cost effective 
(and there's less collateral damage) if you just step on it with your shoe

So, for the 1% of times when you need to shoot 50+ miles while bouncing 
off 2 different mountains, the PTP600 will be your best bet

But for the other 90% of the time, when you have a 10-20 mile shot and 
want something that reliable, carrier-class, and interference / spectrum 
isn't an issue, many are using Mikrotiks / StarOS / Trango Atlas / name 
your own cheap but decent proprietary Atheros-based system out there

Now, I'm personally extremely cheap, but the argument is over because you 
can't just look at up-front price because long-term cost is just as (if 
not more) important when talking about WISP networks

That said, being a slow day, it's worth exercising one's mind to analyze 
possible "what-if" alternative situations -- bear with me here and follow 
my logic here...

The MOST VALUABLE ASSET of any WISP is HIGH POWER MULTIPOINT SPECTRUM (b/c 
ultimately, it's the only thing that generates revenue, and like it or 
not, the #1 determinant in valuing a WISP, or any business for the matter, 
is EBITDA)

In optimal conditions, there's 125 MHz of clean spectrum (6 channels)
Assuming you can make $5k / month per AP (or channel) -- as spectrum gets 
limited, the decision will ultimately boil down to

1. Pay $2k for a cheap Atheros based backhaul to bring 30 Mb to your tower 
and lose 1 channel (or $5k / month in revenue)

2. Run that backhaul in turbo mode, get 50 Mb at your tower, and now lose 
2 channels (or $10k / month in revenue)

3. Pay an extra $10k for a LICENSED BACKHAUL that frees up more spectrum 
for multipoint, and never have to worry about interference on your 
backhaul ever again -- and make an extra $5-10k / month b/c you can add 
more customers on your tower

Some food for thought =)

-Charles



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Re: [WISPA] GigE pricing

[Brad Belton]

That's a pretty open ended question.  

Depends on location-location-location, commit level, term length, carrier
just to name a few items that can influence the price.

Cogent's website says they are the home of the $4 Megabit, but for some
reason 99.99% of the places I ask for that deal they can't deliver
it...

Best,


Brad



-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Gino Villarini
Sent: Friday, April 10, 2009 4:46 PM
To: WISPA General List; Motorola Canopy User Group
Subject: [WISPA] GigE pricing


Anyone with GigE connectionts that could share how much are you paying  
for it?

Gino
Sent from my Motorola Startac...





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Re: [WISPA] 10 GigE

[Tom DeReggi]

No but they can go broke :-)

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: "Brad Belton" 
To: "'WISPA General List'" 
Sent: Friday, April 10, 2009 3:16 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] 10 GigE


Isn't there an old saying that goes something like; whether it works or not,
nobody ever got fired for buying Cisco...


Brad


-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of RickG
Sent: Friday, April 10, 2009 2:11 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] 10 GigE

Over the years, I've done a lot of work for Fortune 1000 companies.
One time, as an alternative to Cisco, I suggested another product and
was laughed out of the room. -RickG

On Fri, Apr 10, 2009 at 8:12 AM,   wrote:
>> All the hard core routing and switching experts I know laugh when
>> someone suggests Cisco.
>>
>> Cisco is like the WalMart of networking equipment. If you need
>> something, chances are that they have something there that will mostly
>> do what it is that you need. But if you need something for some
>> specialized need, then chances are you need to go to Juniper, Foundry,
>> Nortel, etc.
>>
> Of course if you had sent the above to the NANOG list they would be
> laughing at you. Cisco and Juniper alone are the reining champs of the
> high-end routing world. Foundry and Nortel are simply not even considered.
> Right now, the Cisco CRS-1 is considered the best equipment available.
>
> Regardless, talking about super high-end routers when Mike is only looking
> for a few 10 GigE ports is silly. A Cisco 6500/7600 with sup720-3bxl along
> with your 10 GigE card of choice is typically what is deployed today.
> There is a newer option from Cisco using one of the ASR series routers.
> Those will cost you roughly $25k to get started in any reasonable
> configuration. Whereas the sup720-3bxl option will likely cost you only
> $25k well equiped with a variety of ports. I would guess a sup720-3bxl
> platform with 48 10/100/1000 ports, 48 SFP ports, and 4 10 GigE ports
> would run about $30k used.
>
> It is worth noting that the sup720-3bxl has enough TCAM to support up to 1
> million routes and has a backplane that can support 720Gbps.
>
> -Matt
>
>
>


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Re: [WISPA] High Throughput Licensed vs. Unlicensed

[Tom DeReggi]

Which is why Moto/Ortho needs to look at lowering their price of PTP600, and 
making it back on volume.

Trango Licensed Products are a PTP600 killer, 95% of the time.
I'd argue that the Tlink45 also is 95% of the time, based on their periodic 
promo pricing.

There is no question that the PTP600 is one of the finest UL PTP radios out 
there, but that does WISPs absolutely no good, if they won't sell, and only 
sit on manufacturer's warehouse shelves.

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: "Charles Wu" 

To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Friday, April 10, 2009 2:46 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] High Throughput Licensed vs. Unlicensed


> >I do see Travis's point about the longer range shots, however.   I've
>>got a 35, 45 and 65 mile shots with StarOS and they work just fine but
>>only put out about 18-25meg at those distances.   That's enough for me,
>>but I can see where you would want more capacity and I suppose that
>>within that narrow definition, a PTP600 would be better than a licensed
>>link.
>
> Make no mistake, the PTP600, even though it's almost 5 years old, is still 
> one (if not the) best UL radio on the market from a pure technological 
> perspective -- no other radio has it's combination of 1024FFT OFDM, 
> Space-Time-Coding, MIMO, etc
>
> Makes you wonder what planet Motorola / Orthogon raided to get the 
> engineers who built that radio =)
>
> And I'm sure many on the list can attest to the wonderful things that a 
> PTP600 does / can do
>
> However, the discussion has to come back to the reality that we don't work 
> for the government (and can't print money or write stimulus bills on a 
> whim), and as a result, have to figure out a way to make a buck so we can 
> feed the dog, buy gas, pay for those ski trips in Utah...
>
> That said, we get back to "bang for buck" or "good enough"
>
> True, the PTP600 will generally work for all scenarios, but it's akin to 
> killing a bug with a nuclear warhead -- it's a lot more cost effective 
> (and there's less collateral damage) if you just step on it with your shoe
>
> So, for the 1% of times when you need to shoot 50+ miles while bouncing 
> off 2 different mountains, the PTP600 will be your best bet
>
> But for the other 90% of the time, when you have a 10-20 mile shot and 
> want something that reliable, carrier-class, and interference / spectrum 
> isn't an issue, many are using Mikrotiks / StarOS / Trango Atlas / name 
> your own cheap but decent proprietary Atheros-based system out there
>
> Now, I'm personally extremely cheap, but the argument is over because you 
> can't just look at up-front price because long-term cost is just as (if 
> not more) important when talking about WISP networks
>
> That said, being a slow day, it's worth exercising one's mind to analyze 
> possible "what-if" alternative situations -- bear with me here and follow 
> my logic here...
>
> The MOST VALUABLE ASSET of any WISP is HIGH POWER MULTIPOINT SPECTRUM (b/c 
> ultimately, it's the only thing that generates revenue, and like it or 
> not, the #1 determinant in valuing a WISP, or any business for the matter, 
> is EBITDA)
>
> In optimal conditions, there's 125 MHz of clean spectrum (6 channels)
> Assuming you can make $5k / month per AP (or channel) -- as spectrum gets 
> limited, the decision will ultimately boil down to
>
> 1. Pay $2k for a cheap Atheros based backhaul to bring 30 Mb to your tower 
> and lose 1 channel (or $5k / month in revenue)
>
> 2. Run that backhaul in turbo mode, get 50 Mb at your tower, and now lose 
> 2 channels (or $10k / month in revenue)
>
> 3. Pay an extra $10k for a LICENSED BACKHAUL that frees up more spectrum 
> for multipoint, and never have to worry about interference on your 
> backhaul ever again -- and make an extra $5-10k / month b/c you can add 
> more customers on your tower
>
> Some food for thought =)
>
> -Charles
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> 
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[WISPA] GigE pricing

[Gino Villarini]

Anyone with GigE connectionts that could share how much are you paying  
for it?

Gino
Sent from my Motorola Startac...




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Re: [WISPA] High Throughput Licensed vs. Unlicensed

[jp]

That's definitely overlooked. We basically don't have a choice and CAN'T 
install anymore backhauls in the 5.7-5.8 band at many of our tower sites 
as the spectrum just isn't available. It's used for a mix of p2mp or ptp 
links. And it's been that way for many years for us.

We have freed up some 5.8 spectrum with 5.3 short-haul backhauls before 
the new DFS2 requirements. It was just a temporary fix. There is now 
5.4ghz we could use for short-haul p2p with things like the current 
trangolink45 promotions. That wasn't mentioned in your list. But due to 
the short range and speed limits, it's not a universal solution. When it 
can work though, it's definitely worth paying for a legal high quality 
brand name 5.4ghz link to free up 5.8ghz for p2mp.

On Fri, Apr 10, 2009 at 01:46:44PM -0500, Charles Wu wrote:
> The MOST VALUABLE ASSET of any WISP is HIGH POWER MULTIPOINT SPECTRUM (b/c 
> ultimately, it's the only thing that generates revenue, and like it or not, 
> the #1 determinant in valuing a WISP, or any business for the matter, is 
> EBITDA)
> 
> In optimal conditions, there's 125 MHz of clean spectrum (6 channels)
> Assuming you can make $5k / month per AP (or channel) -- as spectrum gets 
> limited, the decision will ultimately boil down to
> 
> 1. Pay $2k for a cheap Atheros based backhaul to bring 30 Mb to your tower 
> and lose 1 channel (or $5k / month in revenue)
> 
> 2. Run that backhaul in turbo mode, get 50 Mb at your tower, and now lose 2 
> channels (or $10k / month in revenue)
> 
> 3. Pay an extra $10k for a LICENSED BACKHAUL that frees up more spectrum for 
> multipoint, and never have to worry about interference on your backhaul ever 
> again -- and make an extra $5-10k / month b/c you can add more customers on 
> your tower
> 
> Some food for thought =)
> 
> -Charles

-- 
/*
Jason Philbrook   |   Midcoast Internet Solutions - Wireless and DSL
KB1IOJ|   Broadband Internet Access, Dialup, and Hosting 
 http://f64.nu/   |   for Midcoast Mainehttp://www.midcoast.com/
*/



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Re: [WISPA] 10 GigE

[Lawrence E. Bakst]

Mike,

If you can set your application up to be more switching than routing based you 
could consider the new Arista switches. Very high 10 GbE port density with low 
cost. You don't specify what kind of routing you are doing but if it is BGP 
they have that in Beta now. I have no idea what the routing throughput numbers 
will be. I don't have any personal experience or financial interest in the 
company.

http://www.aristanetworks.com/en/Index

Best,

leb


At 12:22 PM -0500 4/9/09, Mike Hammett wrote:
>Any recommendations for routers that have multiple 10 GigE interfaces?  I 
>believe the PowerRouter can only do 3 and I'm looking for at least 4, even up 
>to 8 or 10.  I didn't see anything from ImageStream that went that high.
>
>I don't need to do 100 Gigs of throughput, but if you need 1 GigE of commit, 
>you really need a 10 GigE for bursting.
>
>
>-
>Mike Hammett
>Intelligent Computing Solutions
>http://www.ics-il.com
>
>
>
>
>WISPA Wants You! Join today!
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Re: [WISPA] 10 GigE

[Gino Villarini]

mikrotik 


Gino A. Villarini
g...@aeronetpr.com
Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
tel  787.273.4143   fax   787.273.4145

-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf 
Of RickG
Sent: Friday, April 10, 2009 3:11 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] 10 GigE

Over the years, I've done a lot of work for Fortune 1000 companies.
One time, as an alternative to Cisco, I suggested another product and was 
laughed out of the room. -RickG

On Fri, Apr 10, 2009 at 8:12 AM,   wrote:
>> All the hard core routing and switching experts I know laugh when 
>> someone suggests Cisco.
>>
>> Cisco is like the WalMart of networking equipment.  If you need 
>> something, chances are that they have something there that will 
>> mostly do what it is that you need.  But if you need something for 
>> some specialized need, then chances are you need to go to Juniper, 
>> Foundry, Nortel, etc.
>>
> Of course if you had sent the above to the NANOG list they would be 
> laughing at you. Cisco and Juniper alone are the reining champs of the 
> high-end routing world. Foundry and Nortel are simply not even considered.
> Right now, the Cisco CRS-1 is considered the best equipment available.
>
> Regardless, talking about super high-end routers when Mike is only 
> looking for a few 10 GigE ports is silly. A Cisco 6500/7600 with 
> sup720-3bxl along with your 10 GigE card of choice is typically what is 
> deployed today.
> There is a newer option from Cisco using one of the ASR series routers.
> Those will cost you roughly $25k to get started in any reasonable 
> configuration. Whereas the sup720-3bxl option will likely cost you 
> only $25k well equiped with a variety of ports. I would guess a 
> sup720-3bxl platform with 48 10/100/1000 ports, 48 SFP ports, and 4 10 
> GigE ports would run about $30k used.
>
> It is worth noting that the sup720-3bxl has enough TCAM to support up 
> to 1 million routes and has a backplane that can support 720Gbps.
>
> -Matt
>
>
> --
> --
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> --
> --
>
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Re: [WISPA] 10 GigE

[Brad Belton]

Isn't there an old saying that goes something like; whether it works or not,
nobody ever got fired for buying Cisco...


Brad


-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of RickG
Sent: Friday, April 10, 2009 2:11 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] 10 GigE

Over the years, I've done a lot of work for Fortune 1000 companies.
One time, as an alternative to Cisco, I suggested another product and
was laughed out of the room. -RickG

On Fri, Apr 10, 2009 at 8:12 AM,   wrote:
>> All the hard core routing and switching experts I know laugh when
>> someone suggests Cisco.
>>
>> Cisco is like the WalMart of networking equipment.  If you need
>> something, chances are that they have something there that will mostly
>> do what it is that you need.  But if you need something for some
>> specialized need, then chances are you need to go to Juniper, Foundry,
>> Nortel, etc.
>>
> Of course if you had sent the above to the NANOG list they would be
> laughing at you. Cisco and Juniper alone are the reining champs of the
> high-end routing world. Foundry and Nortel are simply not even considered.
> Right now, the Cisco CRS-1 is considered the best equipment available.
>
> Regardless, talking about super high-end routers when Mike is only looking
> for a few 10 GigE ports is silly. A Cisco 6500/7600 with sup720-3bxl along
> with your 10 GigE card of choice is typically what is deployed today.
> There is a newer option from Cisco using one of the ASR series routers.
> Those will cost you roughly $25k to get started in any reasonable
> configuration. Whereas the sup720-3bxl option will likely cost you only
> $25k well equiped with a variety of ports. I would guess a sup720-3bxl
> platform with 48 10/100/1000 ports, 48 SFP ports, and 4 10 GigE ports
> would run about $30k used.
>
> It is worth noting that the sup720-3bxl has enough TCAM to support up to 1
> million routes and has a backplane that can support 720Gbps.
>
> -Matt
>
>
>


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> http://signup.wispa.org/
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Re: [WISPA] 10 GigE

[Josh Luthman]

Was it Netgear?

Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly.
--- Henry Spencer


On Fri, Apr 10, 2009 at 3:11 PM, RickG  wrote:

> Over the years, I've done a lot of work for Fortune 1000 companies.
> One time, as an alternative to Cisco, I suggested another product and
> was laughed out of the room. -RickG
>
> On Fri, Apr 10, 2009 at 8:12 AM,   wrote:
> >> All the hard core routing and switching experts I know laugh when
> >> someone suggests Cisco.
> >>
> >> Cisco is like the WalMart of networking equipment.  If you need
> >> something, chances are that they have something there that will mostly
> >> do what it is that you need.  But if you need something for some
> >> specialized need, then chances are you need to go to Juniper, Foundry,
> >> Nortel, etc.
> >>
> > Of course if you had sent the above to the NANOG list they would be
> > laughing at you. Cisco and Juniper alone are the reining champs of the
> > high-end routing world. Foundry and Nortel are simply not even
> considered.
> > Right now, the Cisco CRS-1 is considered the best equipment available.
> >
> > Regardless, talking about super high-end routers when Mike is only
> looking
> > for a few 10 GigE ports is silly. A Cisco 6500/7600 with sup720-3bxl
> along
> > with your 10 GigE card of choice is typically what is deployed today.
> > There is a newer option from Cisco using one of the ASR series routers.
> > Those will cost you roughly $25k to get started in any reasonable
> > configuration. Whereas the sup720-3bxl option will likely cost you only
> > $25k well equiped with a variety of ports. I would guess a sup720-3bxl
> > platform with 48 10/100/1000 ports, 48 SFP ports, and 4 10 GigE ports
> > would run about $30k used.
> >
> > It is worth noting that the sup720-3bxl has enough TCAM to support up to
> 1
> > million routes and has a backplane that can support 720Gbps.
> >
> > -Matt
> >
> >
> >
> 
> > WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> > http://signup.wispa.org/
> >
> 
> >
> > WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
> >
> > Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> > http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
> >
> > Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
> >
>
>
>
> 
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> 
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Re: [WISPA] 10 GigE

[RickG]

Over the years, I've done a lot of work for Fortune 1000 companies.
One time, as an alternative to Cisco, I suggested another product and
was laughed out of the room. -RickG

On Fri, Apr 10, 2009 at 8:12 AM,   wrote:
>> All the hard core routing and switching experts I know laugh when
>> someone suggests Cisco.
>>
>> Cisco is like the WalMart of networking equipment.  If you need
>> something, chances are that they have something there that will mostly
>> do what it is that you need.  But if you need something for some
>> specialized need, then chances are you need to go to Juniper, Foundry,
>> Nortel, etc.
>>
> Of course if you had sent the above to the NANOG list they would be
> laughing at you. Cisco and Juniper alone are the reining champs of the
> high-end routing world. Foundry and Nortel are simply not even considered.
> Right now, the Cisco CRS-1 is considered the best equipment available.
>
> Regardless, talking about super high-end routers when Mike is only looking
> for a few 10 GigE ports is silly. A Cisco 6500/7600 with sup720-3bxl along
> with your 10 GigE card of choice is typically what is deployed today.
> There is a newer option from Cisco using one of the ASR series routers.
> Those will cost you roughly $25k to get started in any reasonable
> configuration. Whereas the sup720-3bxl option will likely cost you only
> $25k well equiped with a variety of ports. I would guess a sup720-3bxl
> platform with 48 10/100/1000 ports, 48 SFP ports, and 4 10 GigE ports
> would run about $30k used.
>
> It is worth noting that the sup720-3bxl has enough TCAM to support up to 1
> million routes and has a backplane that can support 720Gbps.
>
> -Matt
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> 
>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
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Re: [WISPA] High Throughput Licensed vs. Unlicensed

[Charles Wu]

>I do see Travis's point about the longer range shots, however.   I've 
>got a 35, 45 and 65 mile shots with StarOS and they work just fine but 
>only put out about 18-25meg at those distances.   That's enough for me, 
>but I can see where you would want more capacity and I suppose that 
>within that narrow definition, a PTP600 would be better than a licensed 
>link.

Make no mistake, the PTP600, even though it's almost 5 years old, is still one 
(if not the) best UL radio on the market from a pure technological perspective 
-- no other radio has it's combination of 1024FFT OFDM, Space-Time-Coding, 
MIMO, etc

Makes you wonder what planet Motorola / Orthogon raided to get the engineers 
who built that radio =)

And I'm sure many on the list can attest to the wonderful things that a PTP600 
does / can do

However, the discussion has to come back to the reality that we don't work for 
the government (and can't print money or write stimulus bills on a whim), and 
as a result, have to figure out a way to make a buck so we can feed the dog, 
buy gas, pay for those ski trips in Utah...

That said, we get back to "bang for buck" or "good enough"

True, the PTP600 will generally work for all scenarios, but it's akin to 
killing a bug with a nuclear warhead -- it's a lot more cost effective (and 
there's less collateral damage) if you just step on it with your shoe

So, for the 1% of times when you need to shoot 50+ miles while bouncing off 2 
different mountains, the PTP600 will be your best bet

But for the other 90% of the time, when you have a 10-20 mile shot and want 
something that reliable, carrier-class, and interference / spectrum isn't an 
issue, many are using Mikrotiks / StarOS / Trango Atlas / name your own cheap 
but decent proprietary Atheros-based system out there

Now, I'm personally extremely cheap, but the argument is over because you can't 
just look at up-front price because long-term cost is just as (if not more) 
important when talking about WISP networks

That said, being a slow day, it's worth exercising one's mind to analyze 
possible "what-if" alternative situations -- bear with me here and follow my 
logic here...

The MOST VALUABLE ASSET of any WISP is HIGH POWER MULTIPOINT SPECTRUM (b/c 
ultimately, it's the only thing that generates revenue, and like it or not, the 
#1 determinant in valuing a WISP, or any business for the matter, is EBITDA)

In optimal conditions, there's 125 MHz of clean spectrum (6 channels)
Assuming you can make $5k / month per AP (or channel) -- as spectrum gets 
limited, the decision will ultimately boil down to

1. Pay $2k for a cheap Atheros based backhaul to bring 30 Mb to your tower and 
lose 1 channel (or $5k / month in revenue)

2. Run that backhaul in turbo mode, get 50 Mb at your tower, and now lose 2 
channels (or $10k / month in revenue)

3. Pay an extra $10k for a LICENSED BACKHAUL that frees up more spectrum for 
multipoint, and never have to worry about interference on your backhaul ever 
again -- and make an extra $5-10k / month b/c you can add more customers on 
your tower

Some food for thought =)

-Charles



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Re: [WISPA] High Throughput Licensed vs. Unlicensed

[Jeff Ehman]

Travis, not everyone is in the middle of nowhere Idaho shooting from mountain 
top to mountain top with very little noise over 1 75 mile hop :)  I have a 
feeling many people on this list would DIE for that kind of environment.

Now, I have to say there will always be a place for certain products to fit in 
and admittedly my case was pretty general.  On the flip side though, I think it 
does pertain to a lot of [typical] situations we come across on a daily/weekly 
basis. None of us can come up with a "one size fits all" because there will 
always be those outside cases but we can generalize for certain scenarios.  For 
example, check out the post I just put up.  Pretty standard 12 mile shot that 
we messed around with.  Predictably, the real killer is noise.  

-Jeff
CTI
"There is a Difference"


-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf 
Of Matt Larsen - Lists
Sent: Friday, April 10, 2009 12:22 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] High Throughput Licensed vs. Unlicensed

Jeff, I think you have made a fine point.   I realized about a year ago 
that with the cost of licensed links coming down, there wasn't a lot of 
reason to look at the high-end UL radios anymore.When a StarOS or MT 
setup will deliver 30-50meg of FD throughput at a very low cost, the 
next logical step is to go with a 100MB licensed link.I have a 
couple of my consulting clients that have been dumping their Moto BH 
links in favor of StarOS because it is cheaper and quite a bit faster, 
but  we have also found a few situations where we need more speed, and 
going licensed just makes way more sense than spending that much money 
on a UL link.

I do see Travis's point about the longer range shots, however.   I've 
got a 35, 45 and 65 mile shots with StarOS and they work just fine but 
only put out about 18-25meg at those distances.   That's enough for me, 
but I can see where you would want more capacity and I suppose that 
within that narrow definition, a PTP600 would be better than a licensed 
link.

Matt Larsen
vistabeam.com

Travis Johnson wrote:
> Jeff,
>
> First let me say we LOVE our Trango licensed links. However, the one 
> issue you are not taking into account is distance. I just did a path 
> calc on a 73 mile 5ghz link we have now using a PTP600 and it looks 
> really good there is no way to do that shot with 11ghz (believe 
> me, if I could I would).
>
> So, distance may be a limiting factor when considering licensed vs. 
> unlicensed. We won't talk about my 32 mile, 18ghz licensed link (using 
> 2ft dishes) with 99.99% reliability. ;)
>
> Travis
> Microserv
>
> Jeff Ehman wrote:
>> Since it is Friday and I am bored
>>
>> Here's some interesting points
>>
>> 11 GHz Licensed Radio
>> -220 Mb (110 FD): -76 dBm
>>
>> PTP600
>> -300 Mb (150 FD): -59.1 dBm
>> -200 Mb (100 FD): -68.1 dBm
>>
>> 12 Mile Shot - Availability for both systems using 2' dishes is 99.999% -- 
>> but we may need larger dishes for 5 GHz to account for interference and 
>> noise (while in the licensed band, interference and noise doesn't exist)
>>
>> Assuming no noise for PTP600
>> -2' (28 dBi) Dishes on both sides - Aggregate Throughput - 200.68 Mb 
>> (~100 Mb Full Duplex)
>> -4' (34 dBi) Dishes on both sides - Aggregate Throughput - 287.69 Mb 
>> (~140 Mb Full Duplex)
>>
>> Now, since the PTP600 requires 30 MHz of spectrum and BOTH polarities, it's 
>> safe to assume that generally speaking, we should plan for a minimum thermal 
>> noise floor of -80 dBm - adding that into the equation, our calculation now 
>> shows the following
>> -2' (28 dBi) Dishes on both sides - Aggregate Throughput - 109.03 Mb 
>> (~50 Mb Full Duplex)
>> -4' (34 dBi) Dishes on both sides - Aggregate Throughput - 197.61 Mb 
>> (~100 Mb Full Duplex)
>>
>> 11 GHz Licensed Radio (no noise to worry about)
>> -2' (34.3 dBi) Dishes on both sides - Aggregate Throughput - 220 Mb (110 
>> Mb  Full Duplex)
>>
>> *NOTE: Licensed radios transmit and receive on SEPARATE frequencies...so 
>> round trip latency is ~0.4 milliseconds (~400 microseconds) per hop
>>
>>
>> Now, let's look at cost
>> PTP600 with 2' Dual Pol antennas and misc stuff: $14k
>> PTP600 with 4' Dual Pol antennas and misc stuff: $16k
>> Licensed Radio with 2' Dishes (Software Upgradable to 300 Mb Full Duplex) 
>> and FCC License: $12k
>>
>>
>>
>> -Jeff
>> CTI
>> "There is a Difference"
>>
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org  
>> [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Gino Villarini
>> Sent: Friday, April 10, 2009 11:20 AM
>> To: WISPA General List
>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] High Throughput Licensed vs. Unlicensed
>>
>>
>> IMHO the PTP600 is the best UL radio in the market... 
>>
>>
>> Gino A. Villarini
>> g...@aeronetpr.com 
>> Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
>> tel  787.273.4143   fax   787.273.4145
>>
>> -O

Re: [WISPA] High Throughput Licensed vs. Unlicensed

[3-dB Networks]

Sure it would. 6ft dishes with space diversity.  I sold a link to a company
in Nevada doing just that. been working fine for two years now.  Dragonwave
of course J

 

You could always do 6GHz.

 

Daniel White

3-dB Networks

http://www.3dbnetworks.com

 

From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Travis Johnson
Sent: Friday, April 10, 2009 10:55 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] High Throughput Licensed vs. Unlicensed

 

Jeff,

First let me say we LOVE our Trango licensed links. However, the one issue
you are not taking into account is distance. I just did a path calc on a 73
mile 5ghz link we have now using a PTP600 and it looks really good there
is no way to do that shot with 11ghz (believe me, if I could I would). 

So, distance may be a limiting factor when considering licensed vs.
unlicensed. We won't talk about my 32 mile, 18ghz licensed link (using 2ft
dishes) with 99.99% reliability. ;)

Travis
Microserv

Jeff Ehman wrote: 

Since it is Friday and I am bored
 
Here's some interesting points
 
11 GHz Licensed Radio
-  220 Mb (110 FD): -76 dBm
 
PTP600
-  300 Mb (150 FD): -59.1 dBm
-  200 Mb (100 FD): -68.1 dBm
 
12 Mile Shot - Availability for both systems using 2' dishes is 99.999% --
but we may need larger dishes for 5 GHz to account for interference and
noise (while in the licensed band, interference and noise doesn't exist)
 
Assuming no noise for PTP600
-  2' (28 dBi) Dishes on both sides - Aggregate Throughput - 200.68 Mb
(~100 Mb Full Duplex)
-  4' (34 dBi) Dishes on both sides - Aggregate Throughput - 287.69 Mb
(~140 Mb Full Duplex)
 
Now, since the PTP600 requires 30 MHz of spectrum and BOTH polarities, it's
safe to assume that generally speaking, we should plan for a minimum thermal
noise floor of -80 dBm - adding that into the equation, our calculation now
shows the following
-  2' (28 dBi) Dishes on both sides - Aggregate Throughput - 109.03 Mb
(~50 Mb Full Duplex)
-  4' (34 dBi) Dishes on both sides - Aggregate Throughput - 197.61 Mb
(~100 Mb Full Duplex)
 
11 GHz Licensed Radio (no noise to worry about)
-  2' (34.3 dBi) Dishes on both sides - Aggregate Throughput - 220 Mb
(110 Mb  Full Duplex)
 
*NOTE: Licensed radios transmit and receive on SEPARATE frequencies...so
round trip latency is ~0.4 milliseconds (~400 microseconds) per hop
 
 
Now, let's look at cost
PTP600 with 2' Dual Pol antennas and misc stuff: $14k
PTP600 with 4' Dual Pol antennas and misc stuff: $16k
Licensed Radio with 2' Dishes (Software Upgradable to 300 Mb Full Duplex)
and FCC License: $12k
 
 
 
-Jeff
CTI
"There is a Difference"
 
 
-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Gino Villarini
Sent: Friday, April 10, 2009 11:20 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] High Throughput Licensed vs. Unlicensed
 
 
IMHO the PTP600 is the best UL radio in the market... 
 
 
Gino A. Villarini
g...@aeronetpr.com
Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
tel  787.273.4143   fax   787.273.4145
 
-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Brad Belton
Sent: Friday, April 10, 2009 11:08 AM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: Re: [WISPA] High Throughput Licensed vs. Unlicensed
 
>From what I understand the PTP600 is an OFDM "best effort" radio.  If 
  

the RF


environment is favorable then it will pass data.  If not then it slows
down and/or starts dropping packets.
 
I believe the PTP600 is also a HDX radio, is it not?  Not trying to be
adversarial...just interested in learning more about any UL radio that
can produce 150Mbpd FDX as reliable as a licensed radio set.
 
Anyone have a PTP600 manual they can send me?
 
 
Brad
 
 
-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Gino Villarini
Sent: Friday, April 10, 2009 9:59 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] High Throughput Licensed vs. Unlicensed
 
Just the PTP600 that I think off ... 30 mhz 
 
 
Gino A. Villarini
g...@aeronetpr.com
Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
tel  787.273.4143   fax   787.273.4145
 
-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Brad Belton
Sent: Friday, April 10, 2009 10:54 AM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: Re: [WISPA] High Throughput Licensed vs. Unlicensed
 
Ok, I'll bite.  What UL radio set is going to produce 150Mbps FDX and at
what RF spectrum cost?
 
 
Brad
 
 
-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Jeff Ehman
Sent: Friday, April 10, 2009 9:02 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: [WISPA] High Throughput Licensed vs. Unlicensed
 
All,
 
This post is for those looking at putting in high throughput unlicensed
radios.  I can talk all day about the advantages of licensed (guarantee
of 35-40db fade margin for starters) but I want to th

Re: [WISPA] High Throughput Licensed vs. Unlicensed

[Gino Villarini]

In our case, we have a 41 mile shot pushing 50 mbps fdx with a PTP600,
using 3 and 4 footers

For us to go licensed, we would need 6 ghz (rain zone) and would need at
least 8 footers on each end... 

Huge diferrence! 


Gino A. Villarini
g...@aeronetpr.com
Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
tel  787.273.4143   fax   787.273.4145

-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Matt Larsen - Lists
Sent: Friday, April 10, 2009 1:22 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] High Throughput Licensed vs. Unlicensed

Jeff, I think you have made a fine point.   I realized about a year ago 
that with the cost of licensed links coming down, there wasn't a lot of 
reason to look at the high-end UL radios anymore.When a StarOS or MT

setup will deliver 30-50meg of FD throughput at a very low cost, the 
next logical step is to go with a 100MB licensed link.I have a 
couple of my consulting clients that have been dumping their Moto BH
links in favor of StarOS because it is cheaper and quite a bit faster,
but  we have also found a few situations where we need more speed, and
going licensed just makes way more sense than spending that much money
on a UL link.

I do see Travis's point about the longer range shots, however.   I've 
got a 35, 45 and 65 mile shots with StarOS and they work just fine but 
only put out about 18-25meg at those distances.   That's enough for me, 
but I can see where you would want more capacity and I suppose that
within that narrow definition, a PTP600 would be better than a licensed
link.

Matt Larsen
vistabeam.com

Travis Johnson wrote:
> Jeff,
>
> First let me say we LOVE our Trango licensed links. However, the one 
> issue you are not taking into account is distance. I just did a path 
> calc on a 73 mile 5ghz link we have now using a PTP600 and it looks 
> really good there is no way to do that shot with 11ghz (believe 
> me, if I could I would).
>
> So, distance may be a limiting factor when considering licensed vs. 
> unlicensed. We won't talk about my 32 mile, 18ghz licensed link (using

> 2ft dishes) with 99.99% reliability. ;)
>
> Travis
> Microserv
>
> Jeff Ehman wrote:
>> Since it is Friday and I am bored
>>
>> Here's some interesting points
>>
>> 11 GHz Licensed Radio
>> -220 Mb (110 FD): -76 dBm
>>
>> PTP600
>> -300 Mb (150 FD): -59.1 dBm
>> -200 Mb (100 FD): -68.1 dBm
>>
>> 12 Mile Shot - Availability for both systems using 2' dishes is 
>> 99.999% -- but we may need larger dishes for 5 GHz to account for 
>> interference and noise (while in the licensed band, interference and 
>> noise doesn't exist)
>>
>> Assuming no noise for PTP600
>> -2' (28 dBi) Dishes on both sides - Aggregate Throughput - 200.68
Mb (~100 Mb Full Duplex)
>> -4' (34 dBi) Dishes on both sides - Aggregate Throughput - 287.69
Mb (~140 Mb Full Duplex)
>>
>> Now, since the PTP600 requires 30 MHz of spectrum and BOTH
polarities, it's safe to assume that generally speaking, we should plan
for a minimum thermal noise floor of -80 dBm - adding that into the
equation, our calculation now shows the following
>> -2' (28 dBi) Dishes on both sides - Aggregate Throughput - 109.03
Mb (~50 Mb Full Duplex)
>> -4' (34 dBi) Dishes on both sides - Aggregate Throughput - 197.61
Mb (~100 Mb Full Duplex)
>>
>> 11 GHz Licensed Radio (no noise to worry about)
>> -2' (34.3 dBi) Dishes on both sides - Aggregate Throughput - 220
Mb (110 Mb  Full Duplex)
>>
>> *NOTE: Licensed radios transmit and receive on SEPARATE 
>> frequencies...so round trip latency is ~0.4 milliseconds (~400 
>> microseconds) per hop
>>
>>
>> Now, let's look at cost
>> PTP600 with 2' Dual Pol antennas and misc stuff: $14k PTP600 with 4' 
>> Dual Pol antennas and misc stuff: $16k Licensed Radio with 2' Dishes 
>> (Software Upgradable to 300 Mb Full Duplex) and FCC License: $12k
>>
>>
>>
>> -Jeff
>> CTI
>> "There is a Difference"
>>
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org  
>> [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Gino Villarini
>> Sent: Friday, April 10, 2009 11:20 AM
>> To: WISPA General List
>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] High Throughput Licensed vs. Unlicensed
>>
>>
>> IMHO the PTP600 is the best UL radio in the market... 
>>
>>
>> Gino A. Villarini
>> g...@aeronetpr.com  Aeronet Wireless 
>> Broadband Corp.
>> tel  787.273.4143   fax   787.273.4145
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org  
>> [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Brad Belton
>> Sent: Friday, April 10, 2009 11:08 AM
>> To: 'WISPA General List'
>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] High Throughput Licensed vs. Unlicensed
>>
>> >From what I understand the PTP600 is an OFDM "best effort" radio.  
>> >If
>>   
>>> the RF
>>> 
>> environment is favorable then it will pass data.  If not then it 
>> slows down and/or starts dropping pac

Re: [WISPA] High Throughput Licensed vs. Unlicensed

[Matt Larsen - Lists]

Jeff, I think you have made a fine point.   I realized about a year ago 
that with the cost of licensed links coming down, there wasn't a lot of 
reason to look at the high-end UL radios anymore.When a StarOS or MT 
setup will deliver 30-50meg of FD throughput at a very low cost, the 
next logical step is to go with a 100MB licensed link.I have a 
couple of my consulting clients that have been dumping their Moto BH 
links in favor of StarOS because it is cheaper and quite a bit faster, 
but  we have also found a few situations where we need more speed, and 
going licensed just makes way more sense than spending that much money 
on a UL link.

I do see Travis's point about the longer range shots, however.   I've 
got a 35, 45 and 65 mile shots with StarOS and they work just fine but 
only put out about 18-25meg at those distances.   That's enough for me, 
but I can see where you would want more capacity and I suppose that 
within that narrow definition, a PTP600 would be better than a licensed 
link.

Matt Larsen
vistabeam.com

Travis Johnson wrote:
> Jeff,
>
> First let me say we LOVE our Trango licensed links. However, the one 
> issue you are not taking into account is distance. I just did a path 
> calc on a 73 mile 5ghz link we have now using a PTP600 and it looks 
> really good there is no way to do that shot with 11ghz (believe 
> me, if I could I would).
>
> So, distance may be a limiting factor when considering licensed vs. 
> unlicensed. We won't talk about my 32 mile, 18ghz licensed link (using 
> 2ft dishes) with 99.99% reliability. ;)
>
> Travis
> Microserv
>
> Jeff Ehman wrote:
>> Since it is Friday and I am bored
>>
>> Here's some interesting points
>>
>> 11 GHz Licensed Radio
>> -220 Mb (110 FD): -76 dBm
>>
>> PTP600
>> -300 Mb (150 FD): -59.1 dBm
>> -200 Mb (100 FD): -68.1 dBm
>>
>> 12 Mile Shot - Availability for both systems using 2' dishes is 99.999% -- 
>> but we may need larger dishes for 5 GHz to account for interference and 
>> noise (while in the licensed band, interference and noise doesn't exist)
>>
>> Assuming no noise for PTP600
>> -2' (28 dBi) Dishes on both sides - Aggregate Throughput - 200.68 Mb 
>> (~100 Mb Full Duplex)
>> -4' (34 dBi) Dishes on both sides - Aggregate Throughput - 287.69 Mb 
>> (~140 Mb Full Duplex)
>>
>> Now, since the PTP600 requires 30 MHz of spectrum and BOTH polarities, it's 
>> safe to assume that generally speaking, we should plan for a minimum thermal 
>> noise floor of -80 dBm - adding that into the equation, our calculation now 
>> shows the following
>> -2' (28 dBi) Dishes on both sides - Aggregate Throughput - 109.03 Mb 
>> (~50 Mb Full Duplex)
>> -4' (34 dBi) Dishes on both sides - Aggregate Throughput - 197.61 Mb 
>> (~100 Mb Full Duplex)
>>
>> 11 GHz Licensed Radio (no noise to worry about)
>> -2' (34.3 dBi) Dishes on both sides - Aggregate Throughput - 220 Mb (110 
>> Mb  Full Duplex)
>>
>> *NOTE: Licensed radios transmit and receive on SEPARATE frequencies...so 
>> round trip latency is ~0.4 milliseconds (~400 microseconds) per hop
>>
>>
>> Now, let's look at cost
>> PTP600 with 2' Dual Pol antennas and misc stuff: $14k
>> PTP600 with 4' Dual Pol antennas and misc stuff: $16k
>> Licensed Radio with 2' Dishes (Software Upgradable to 300 Mb Full Duplex) 
>> and FCC License: $12k
>>
>>
>>
>> -Jeff
>> CTI
>> "There is a Difference"
>>
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org  
>> [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Gino Villarini
>> Sent: Friday, April 10, 2009 11:20 AM
>> To: WISPA General List
>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] High Throughput Licensed vs. Unlicensed
>>
>>
>> IMHO the PTP600 is the best UL radio in the market... 
>>
>>
>> Gino A. Villarini
>> g...@aeronetpr.com 
>> Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
>> tel  787.273.4143   fax   787.273.4145
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org  
>> [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
>> Behalf Of Brad Belton
>> Sent: Friday, April 10, 2009 11:08 AM
>> To: 'WISPA General List'
>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] High Throughput Licensed vs. Unlicensed
>>
>> >From what I understand the PTP600 is an OFDM "best effort" radio.  If 
>>   
>>> the RF
>>> 
>> environment is favorable then it will pass data.  If not then it slows
>> down and/or starts dropping packets.
>>
>> I believe the PTP600 is also a HDX radio, is it not?  Not trying to be
>> adversarial...just interested in learning more about any UL radio that
>> can produce 150Mbpd FDX as reliable as a licensed radio set.
>>
>> Anyone have a PTP600 manual they can send me?
>>
>>
>> Brad
>>
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org  
>> [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
>> Behalf Of Gino Villarini
>> Sent: Friday, April 10, 2009 9:59 AM
>> To: WISPA General List
>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] 

Re: [WISPA] High Throughput Licensed vs. Unlicensed

[Travis Johnson]

Jeff,

First let me say we LOVE our Trango licensed links. However, the one
issue you are not taking into account is distance. I just did a path
calc on a 73 mile 5ghz link we have now using a PTP600 and it looks
really good there is no way to do that shot with 11ghz (believe me,
if I could I would). 

So, distance may be a limiting factor when considering licensed vs.
unlicensed. We won't talk about my 32 mile, 18ghz licensed link (using
2ft dishes) with 99.99% reliability. ;)

Travis
Microserv

Jeff Ehman wrote:

  Since it is Friday and I am bored

Here's some interesting points

11 GHz Licensed Radio
-	220 Mb (110 FD): -76 dBm

PTP600
-	300 Mb (150 FD): -59.1 dBm
-	200 Mb (100 FD): -68.1 dBm

12 Mile Shot - Availability for both systems using 2' dishes is 99.999% -- but we may need larger dishes for 5 GHz to account for interference and noise (while in the licensed band, interference and noise doesn't exist)

Assuming no noise for PTP600
-	2' (28 dBi) Dishes on both sides - Aggregate Throughput - 200.68 Mb (~100 Mb Full Duplex)
-	4' (34 dBi) Dishes on both sides - Aggregate Throughput - 287.69 Mb (~140 Mb Full Duplex)

Now, since the PTP600 requires 30 MHz of spectrum and BOTH polarities, it's safe to assume that generally speaking, we should plan for a minimum thermal noise floor of -80 dBm - adding that into the equation, our calculation now shows the following
-	2' (28 dBi) Dishes on both sides - Aggregate Throughput - 109.03 Mb (~50 Mb Full Duplex)
-	4' (34 dBi) Dishes on both sides - Aggregate Throughput - 197.61 Mb (~100 Mb Full Duplex)

11 GHz Licensed Radio (no noise to worry about)
-	2' (34.3 dBi) Dishes on both sides - Aggregate Throughput - 220 Mb (110 Mb  Full Duplex)

*NOTE: Licensed radios transmit and receive on SEPARATE frequencies...so round trip latency is ~0.4 milliseconds (~400 microseconds) per hop


Now, let's look at cost
PTP600 with 2' Dual Pol antennas and misc stuff: $14k
PTP600 with 4' Dual Pol antennas and misc stuff: $16k
Licensed Radio with 2' Dishes (Software Upgradable to 300 Mb Full Duplex) and FCC License: $12k



-Jeff
CTI
"There is a Difference"


-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Gino Villarini
Sent: Friday, April 10, 2009 11:20 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] High Throughput Licensed vs. Unlicensed


IMHO the PTP600 is the best UL radio in the market... 


Gino A. Villarini
g...@aeronetpr.com
Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
tel  787.273.4143   fax   787.273.4145

-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Brad Belton
Sent: Friday, April 10, 2009 11:08 AM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: Re: [WISPA] High Throughput Licensed vs. Unlicensed

>From what I understand the PTP600 is an OFDM "best effort" radio.  If 
  
  
the RF

  
  environment is favorable then it will pass data.  If not then it slows
down and/or starts dropping packets.

I believe the PTP600 is also a HDX radio, is it not?  Not trying to be
adversarial...just interested in learning more about any UL radio that
can produce 150Mbpd FDX as reliable as a licensed radio set.

Anyone have a PTP600 manual they can send me?


Brad


-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Gino Villarini
Sent: Friday, April 10, 2009 9:59 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] High Throughput Licensed vs. Unlicensed

Just the PTP600 that I think off ... 30 mhz 


Gino A. Villarini
g...@aeronetpr.com
Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
tel  787.273.4143   fax   787.273.4145

-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Brad Belton
Sent: Friday, April 10, 2009 10:54 AM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: Re: [WISPA] High Throughput Licensed vs. Unlicensed

Ok, I'll bite.  What UL radio set is going to produce 150Mbps FDX and at
what RF spectrum cost?


Brad


-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Jeff Ehman
Sent: Friday, April 10, 2009 9:02 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: [WISPA] High Throughput Licensed vs. Unlicensed

All,

This post is for those looking at putting in high throughput unlicensed
radios.  I can talk all day about the advantages of licensed (guarantee
of 35-40db fade margin for starters) but I want to throw out some real
world numbers I am seeing.  Don't get me wrong, there is always a place
for unlicensed radios (speed to deploy...licensed takes 4-6 weeks to
build, and you can move the radios without relicensing) but there are
other options on the high capacity side right now.  Check out everything
below because the pricing for licensed has come down tremendously over
the years.  Just something to mull over this weekend.

THIS IS ALL IN APPLES TO APPLES.

~110mbps Licensed Radio
Radio + 2 foot dished + Coordination = $9,995.00 FCC Fees 

Re: [WISPA] High Throughput Licensed vs. Unlicensed

[Jeff Ehman]

Since it is Friday and I am bored

Here's some interesting points

11 GHz Licensed Radio
-   220 Mb (110 FD): -76 dBm

PTP600
-   300 Mb (150 FD): -59.1 dBm
-   200 Mb (100 FD): -68.1 dBm

12 Mile Shot - Availability for both systems using 2' dishes is 99.999% -- but 
we may need larger dishes for 5 GHz to account for interference and noise 
(while in the licensed band, interference and noise doesn't exist)

Assuming no noise for PTP600
-   2' (28 dBi) Dishes on both sides - Aggregate Throughput - 200.68 Mb 
(~100 Mb Full Duplex)
-   4' (34 dBi) Dishes on both sides - Aggregate Throughput - 287.69 Mb 
(~140 Mb Full Duplex)

Now, since the PTP600 requires 30 MHz of spectrum and BOTH polarities, it's 
safe to assume that generally speaking, we should plan for a minimum thermal 
noise floor of -80 dBm - adding that into the equation, our calculation now 
shows the following
-   2' (28 dBi) Dishes on both sides - Aggregate Throughput - 109.03 Mb 
(~50 Mb Full Duplex)
-   4' (34 dBi) Dishes on both sides - Aggregate Throughput - 197.61 Mb 
(~100 Mb Full Duplex)

11 GHz Licensed Radio (no noise to worry about)
-   2' (34.3 dBi) Dishes on both sides - Aggregate Throughput - 220 Mb (110 
Mb  Full Duplex)

*NOTE: Licensed radios transmit and receive on SEPARATE frequencies...so round 
trip latency is ~0.4 milliseconds (~400 microseconds) per hop


Now, let's look at cost
PTP600 with 2' Dual Pol antennas and misc stuff: $14k
PTP600 with 4' Dual Pol antennas and misc stuff: $16k
Licensed Radio with 2' Dishes (Software Upgradable to 300 Mb Full Duplex) and 
FCC License: $12k



-Jeff
CTI
"There is a Difference"


-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf 
Of Gino Villarini
Sent: Friday, April 10, 2009 11:20 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] High Throughput Licensed vs. Unlicensed


IMHO the PTP600 is the best UL radio in the market... 


Gino A. Villarini
g...@aeronetpr.com
Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
tel  787.273.4143   fax   787.273.4145

-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Brad Belton
Sent: Friday, April 10, 2009 11:08 AM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: Re: [WISPA] High Throughput Licensed vs. Unlicensed

>From what I understand the PTP600 is an OFDM "best effort" radio.  If 
>the RF
environment is favorable then it will pass data.  If not then it slows
down and/or starts dropping packets.

I believe the PTP600 is also a HDX radio, is it not?  Not trying to be
adversarial...just interested in learning more about any UL radio that
can produce 150Mbpd FDX as reliable as a licensed radio set.

Anyone have a PTP600 manual they can send me?


Brad


-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Gino Villarini
Sent: Friday, April 10, 2009 9:59 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] High Throughput Licensed vs. Unlicensed

Just the PTP600 that I think off ... 30 mhz 


Gino A. Villarini
g...@aeronetpr.com
Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
tel  787.273.4143   fax   787.273.4145

-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Brad Belton
Sent: Friday, April 10, 2009 10:54 AM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: Re: [WISPA] High Throughput Licensed vs. Unlicensed

Ok, I'll bite.  What UL radio set is going to produce 150Mbps FDX and at
what RF spectrum cost?


Brad


-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Jeff Ehman
Sent: Friday, April 10, 2009 9:02 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: [WISPA] High Throughput Licensed vs. Unlicensed

All,

This post is for those looking at putting in high throughput unlicensed
radios.  I can talk all day about the advantages of licensed (guarantee
of 35-40db fade margin for starters) but I want to throw out some real
world numbers I am seeing.  Don't get me wrong, there is always a place
for unlicensed radios (speed to deploy...licensed takes 4-6 weeks to
build, and you can move the radios without relicensing) but there are
other options on the high capacity side right now.  Check out everything
below because the pricing for licensed has come down tremendously over
the years.  Just something to mull over this weekend.

THIS IS ALL IN APPLES TO APPLES.

~110mbps Licensed Radio
Radio + 2 foot dished + Coordination = $9,995.00 FCC Fees = $650 per
side = $1,300.00
2 Power Supplies and 2 POE Adaptors = ~$638.00 TOTAL PRICE ALL IN =
~$11,933.00

~150mbps Unlicensed Radio
150mbps Connectorized Radio Link = ~$11,000 Dual Pol Antennas + Coax
Jumpers = ~$400.00 TOTAL PRICE ALL IN = $11,400.00

-Jeff
CTI
"There is a Difference"





WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/

Re: [WISPA] High Throughput Licensed vs. Unlicensed

[Gino Villarini]

IMHO the PTP600 is the best UL radio in the market... 


Gino A. Villarini
g...@aeronetpr.com
Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
tel  787.273.4143   fax   787.273.4145

-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Brad Belton
Sent: Friday, April 10, 2009 11:08 AM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: Re: [WISPA] High Throughput Licensed vs. Unlicensed

>From what I understand the PTP600 is an OFDM "best effort" radio.  If 
>the RF
environment is favorable then it will pass data.  If not then it slows
down and/or starts dropping packets.

I believe the PTP600 is also a HDX radio, is it not?  Not trying to be
adversarial...just interested in learning more about any UL radio that
can produce 150Mbpd FDX as reliable as a licensed radio set.

Anyone have a PTP600 manual they can send me?


Brad


-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Gino Villarini
Sent: Friday, April 10, 2009 9:59 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] High Throughput Licensed vs. Unlicensed

Just the PTP600 that I think off ... 30 mhz 


Gino A. Villarini
g...@aeronetpr.com
Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
tel  787.273.4143   fax   787.273.4145

-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Brad Belton
Sent: Friday, April 10, 2009 10:54 AM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: Re: [WISPA] High Throughput Licensed vs. Unlicensed

Ok, I'll bite.  What UL radio set is going to produce 150Mbps FDX and at
what RF spectrum cost?


Brad


-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Jeff Ehman
Sent: Friday, April 10, 2009 9:02 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: [WISPA] High Throughput Licensed vs. Unlicensed

All,

This post is for those looking at putting in high throughput unlicensed
radios.  I can talk all day about the advantages of licensed (guarantee
of 35-40db fade margin for starters) but I want to throw out some real
world numbers I am seeing.  Don't get me wrong, there is always a place
for unlicensed radios (speed to deploy...licensed takes 4-6 weeks to
build, and you can move the radios without relicensing) but there are
other options on the high capacity side right now.  Check out everything
below because the pricing for licensed has come down tremendously over
the years.  Just something to mull over this weekend.

THIS IS ALL IN APPLES TO APPLES.

~110mbps Licensed Radio
Radio + 2 foot dished + Coordination = $9,995.00 FCC Fees = $650 per
side = $1,300.00
2 Power Supplies and 2 POE Adaptors = ~$638.00 TOTAL PRICE ALL IN =
~$11,933.00

~150mbps Unlicensed Radio
150mbps Connectorized Radio Link = ~$11,000 Dual Pol Antennas + Coax
Jumpers = ~$400.00 TOTAL PRICE ALL IN = $11,400.00

-Jeff
CTI
"There is a Difference"





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Re: [WISPA] High Throughput Licensed vs. Unlicensed

[Patrick Shoemaker]

Manual:

http://motorola.motowi4solutions.com/software/sw_downlink_public.php?id=20cc6c8c64aeea8fd064ea81e953dc25

Patrick Shoemaker
Vector Data Systems LLC
shoemak...@vectordatasystems.com
office: (301) 358-1690 x36
http://www.vectordatasystems.com


Brad Belton wrote:
>>From what I understand the PTP600 is an OFDM "best effort" radio.  If the RF
> environment is favorable then it will pass data.  If not then it slows down
> and/or starts dropping packets.
> 
> I believe the PTP600 is also a HDX radio, is it not?  Not trying to be
> adversarial...just interested in learning more about any UL radio that can
> produce 150Mbpd FDX as reliable as a licensed radio set.
> 
> Anyone have a PTP600 manual they can send me?
> 
> 
> Brad
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
> Behalf Of Gino Villarini
> Sent: Friday, April 10, 2009 9:59 AM
> To: WISPA General List
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] High Throughput Licensed vs. Unlicensed
> 
> Just the PTP600 that I think off ... 30 mhz 
> 
> 
> Gino A. Villarini
> g...@aeronetpr.com
> Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
> tel  787.273.4143   fax   787.273.4145
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
> Behalf Of Brad Belton
> Sent: Friday, April 10, 2009 10:54 AM
> To: 'WISPA General List'
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] High Throughput Licensed vs. Unlicensed
> 
> Ok, I'll bite.  What UL radio set is going to produce 150Mbps FDX and at
> what RF spectrum cost?
> 
> 
> Brad
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
> Behalf Of Jeff Ehman
> Sent: Friday, April 10, 2009 9:02 AM
> To: WISPA General List
> Subject: [WISPA] High Throughput Licensed vs. Unlicensed
> 
> All,
> 
> This post is for those looking at putting in high throughput unlicensed
> radios.  I can talk all day about the advantages of licensed (guarantee
> of 35-40db fade margin for starters) but I want to throw out some real
> world numbers I am seeing.  Don't get me wrong, there is always a place
> for unlicensed radios (speed to deploy...licensed takes 4-6 weeks to
> build, and you can move the radios without relicensing) but there are
> other options on the high capacity side right now.  Check out everything
> below because the pricing for licensed has come down tremendously over
> the years.  Just something to mull over this weekend.
> 
> THIS IS ALL IN APPLES TO APPLES.
> 
> ~110mbps Licensed Radio
> Radio + 2 foot dished + Coordination = $9,995.00 FCC Fees = $650 per
> side = $1,300.00
> 2 Power Supplies and 2 POE Adaptors = ~$638.00 TOTAL PRICE ALL IN =
> ~$11,933.00
> 
> ~150mbps Unlicensed Radio
> 150mbps Connectorized Radio Link = ~$11,000 Dual Pol Antennas + Coax
> Jumpers = ~$400.00 TOTAL PRICE ALL IN = $11,400.00
> 
> -Jeff
> CTI
> "There is a Difference"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> 
> 
> 
>  
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
> 
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
> 
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
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Re: [WISPA] High Throughput Licensed vs. Unlicensed

[Gino Villarini]

Well, the ptp600 is mimo, so it has 2 radios... 

You can hard set it to 1 to 1 or 2 to 1 or adaptive bandwitdh
allocation...

So in a 1 to 1 setup you gey almost true fdx operation..

Nice thing is that you can GPS sync multiple units for freq reuse 


Gino A. Villarini
g...@aeronetpr.com
Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
tel  787.273.4143   fax   787.273.4145

-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Brad Belton
Sent: Friday, April 10, 2009 11:08 AM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: Re: [WISPA] High Throughput Licensed vs. Unlicensed

>From what I understand the PTP600 is an OFDM "best effort" radio.  If 
>the RF
environment is favorable then it will pass data.  If not then it slows
down and/or starts dropping packets.

I believe the PTP600 is also a HDX radio, is it not?  Not trying to be
adversarial...just interested in learning more about any UL radio that
can produce 150Mbpd FDX as reliable as a licensed radio set.

Anyone have a PTP600 manual they can send me?


Brad


-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Gino Villarini
Sent: Friday, April 10, 2009 9:59 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] High Throughput Licensed vs. Unlicensed

Just the PTP600 that I think off ... 30 mhz 


Gino A. Villarini
g...@aeronetpr.com
Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
tel  787.273.4143   fax   787.273.4145

-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Brad Belton
Sent: Friday, April 10, 2009 10:54 AM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: Re: [WISPA] High Throughput Licensed vs. Unlicensed

Ok, I'll bite.  What UL radio set is going to produce 150Mbps FDX and at
what RF spectrum cost?


Brad


-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Jeff Ehman
Sent: Friday, April 10, 2009 9:02 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: [WISPA] High Throughput Licensed vs. Unlicensed

All,

This post is for those looking at putting in high throughput unlicensed
radios.  I can talk all day about the advantages of licensed (guarantee
of 35-40db fade margin for starters) but I want to throw out some real
world numbers I am seeing.  Don't get me wrong, there is always a place
for unlicensed radios (speed to deploy...licensed takes 4-6 weeks to
build, and you can move the radios without relicensing) but there are
other options on the high capacity side right now.  Check out everything
below because the pricing for licensed has come down tremendously over
the years.  Just something to mull over this weekend.

THIS IS ALL IN APPLES TO APPLES.

~110mbps Licensed Radio
Radio + 2 foot dished + Coordination = $9,995.00 FCC Fees = $650 per
side = $1,300.00
2 Power Supplies and 2 POE Adaptors = ~$638.00 TOTAL PRICE ALL IN =
~$11,933.00

~150mbps Unlicensed Radio
150mbps Connectorized Radio Link = ~$11,000 Dual Pol Antennas + Coax
Jumpers = ~$400.00 TOTAL PRICE ALL IN = $11,400.00

-Jeff
CTI
"There is a Difference"





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Re: [WISPA] High Throughput Licensed vs. Unlicensed

[Brad Belton]

>From what I understand the PTP600 is an OFDM "best effort" radio.  If the RF
environment is favorable then it will pass data.  If not then it slows down
and/or starts dropping packets.

I believe the PTP600 is also a HDX radio, is it not?  Not trying to be
adversarial...just interested in learning more about any UL radio that can
produce 150Mbpd FDX as reliable as a licensed radio set.

Anyone have a PTP600 manual they can send me?


Brad


-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Gino Villarini
Sent: Friday, April 10, 2009 9:59 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] High Throughput Licensed vs. Unlicensed

Just the PTP600 that I think off ... 30 mhz 


Gino A. Villarini
g...@aeronetpr.com
Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
tel  787.273.4143   fax   787.273.4145

-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Brad Belton
Sent: Friday, April 10, 2009 10:54 AM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: Re: [WISPA] High Throughput Licensed vs. Unlicensed

Ok, I'll bite.  What UL radio set is going to produce 150Mbps FDX and at
what RF spectrum cost?


Brad


-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Jeff Ehman
Sent: Friday, April 10, 2009 9:02 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: [WISPA] High Throughput Licensed vs. Unlicensed

All,

This post is for those looking at putting in high throughput unlicensed
radios.  I can talk all day about the advantages of licensed (guarantee
of 35-40db fade margin for starters) but I want to throw out some real
world numbers I am seeing.  Don't get me wrong, there is always a place
for unlicensed radios (speed to deploy...licensed takes 4-6 weeks to
build, and you can move the radios without relicensing) but there are
other options on the high capacity side right now.  Check out everything
below because the pricing for licensed has come down tremendously over
the years.  Just something to mull over this weekend.

THIS IS ALL IN APPLES TO APPLES.

~110mbps Licensed Radio
Radio + 2 foot dished + Coordination = $9,995.00 FCC Fees = $650 per
side = $1,300.00
2 Power Supplies and 2 POE Adaptors = ~$638.00 TOTAL PRICE ALL IN =
~$11,933.00

~150mbps Unlicensed Radio
150mbps Connectorized Radio Link = ~$11,000 Dual Pol Antennas + Coax
Jumpers = ~$400.00 TOTAL PRICE ALL IN = $11,400.00

-Jeff
CTI
"There is a Difference"





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Re: [WISPA] 10 GigE

[Jon Auer]

http://mailman.nanog.org/mailman/listinfo/nanog

Also join Cisco-NSP if you are interested in Cisco gear:
http://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/cisco-nsp
And the Outages list occasionally informative:
https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/outages

On Fri, Apr 10, 2009 at 9:59 AM, Gino Villarini  wrote:
> Matt
>
> Where could one subscribe to such a list? NaNog List
>
>
> Gino A. Villarini
> g...@aeronetpr.com
> Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
> tel  787.273.4143   fax   787.273.4145
>
> -Original Message-
> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
> Behalf Of mlio...@r337.com
> Sent: Friday, April 10, 2009 8:13 AM
> To: scubac...@gmail.com; WISPA General List
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] 10 GigE
>
>> All the hard core routing and switching experts I know laugh when
>> someone suggests Cisco.
>>
>> Cisco is like the WalMart of networking equipment.  If you need
>> something, chances are that they have something there that will mostly
>
>> do what it is that you need.  But if you need something for some
>> specialized need, then chances are you need to go to Juniper, Foundry,
>
>> Nortel, etc.
>>
> Of course if you had sent the above to the NANOG list they would be
> laughing at you. Cisco and Juniper alone are the reining champs of the
> high-end routing world. Foundry and Nortel are simply not even
> considered.
> Right now, the Cisco CRS-1 is considered the best equipment available.
>
> Regardless, talking about super high-end routers when Mike is only
> looking for a few 10 GigE ports is silly. A Cisco 6500/7600 with
> sup720-3bxl along with your 10 GigE card of choice is typically what is
> deployed today.
> There is a newer option from Cisco using one of the ASR series routers.
> Those will cost you roughly $25k to get started in any reasonable
> configuration. Whereas the sup720-3bxl option will likely cost you only
> $25k well equiped with a variety of ports. I would guess a sup720-3bxl
> platform with 48 10/100/1000 ports, 48 SFP ports, and 4 10 GigE ports
> would run about $30k used.
>
> It is worth noting that the sup720-3bxl has enough TCAM to support up to
> 1 million routes and has a backplane that can support 720Gbps.
>
> -Matt
>
>
> 
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> 
> 
>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>
>
> 
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> http://signup.wispa.org/
> 
>
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>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
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>
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>



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Re: [WISPA] 10 GigE

[Brad Belton]

Gino...Google is your friend...

Brad


-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Gino Villarini
Sent: Friday, April 10, 2009 10:00 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] 10 GigE

Matt

Where could one subscribe to such a list? NaNog List 


Gino A. Villarini
g...@aeronetpr.com
Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
tel  787.273.4143   fax   787.273.4145

-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of mlio...@r337.com
Sent: Friday, April 10, 2009 8:13 AM
To: scubac...@gmail.com; WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] 10 GigE

> All the hard core routing and switching experts I know laugh when 
> someone suggests Cisco.
>
> Cisco is like the WalMart of networking equipment.  If you need 
> something, chances are that they have something there that will mostly

> do what it is that you need.  But if you need something for some 
> specialized need, then chances are you need to go to Juniper, Foundry,

> Nortel, etc.
>
Of course if you had sent the above to the NANOG list they would be
laughing at you. Cisco and Juniper alone are the reining champs of the
high-end routing world. Foundry and Nortel are simply not even
considered.
Right now, the Cisco CRS-1 is considered the best equipment available.

Regardless, talking about super high-end routers when Mike is only
looking for a few 10 GigE ports is silly. A Cisco 6500/7600 with
sup720-3bxl along with your 10 GigE card of choice is typically what is
deployed today.
There is a newer option from Cisco using one of the ASR series routers.
Those will cost you roughly $25k to get started in any reasonable
configuration. Whereas the sup720-3bxl option will likely cost you only
$25k well equiped with a variety of ports. I would guess a sup720-3bxl
platform with 48 10/100/1000 ports, 48 SFP ports, and 4 10 GigE ports
would run about $30k used.

It is worth noting that the sup720-3bxl has enough TCAM to support up to
1 million routes and has a backplane that can support 720Gbps.

-Matt




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Re: [WISPA] 10 GigE

[George Rogato]

http://nanog.org/mailinglist/

Gino Villarini wrote:
> Matt
> 
> Where could one subscribe to such a list? NaNog List 
> 
> 
> Gino A. Villarini
> g...@aeronetpr.com
> Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
> tel  787.273.4143   fax   787.273.4145
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
> Behalf Of mlio...@r337.com
> Sent: Friday, April 10, 2009 8:13 AM
> To: scubac...@gmail.com; WISPA General List
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] 10 GigE
> 
>> All the hard core routing and switching experts I know laugh when 
>> someone suggests Cisco.
>>
>> Cisco is like the WalMart of networking equipment.  If you need 
>> something, chances are that they have something there that will mostly
> 
>> do what it is that you need.  But if you need something for some 
>> specialized need, then chances are you need to go to Juniper, Foundry,
> 
>> Nortel, etc.
>>
> Of course if you had sent the above to the NANOG list they would be
> laughing at you. Cisco and Juniper alone are the reining champs of the
> high-end routing world. Foundry and Nortel are simply not even
> considered.
> Right now, the Cisco CRS-1 is considered the best equipment available.
> 
> Regardless, talking about super high-end routers when Mike is only
> looking for a few 10 GigE ports is silly. A Cisco 6500/7600 with
> sup720-3bxl along with your 10 GigE card of choice is typically what is
> deployed today.
> There is a newer option from Cisco using one of the ASR series routers.
> Those will cost you roughly $25k to get started in any reasonable
> configuration. Whereas the sup720-3bxl option will likely cost you only
> $25k well equiped with a variety of ports. I would guess a sup720-3bxl
> platform with 48 10/100/1000 ports, 48 SFP ports, and 4 10 GigE ports
> would run about $30k used.
> 
> It is worth noting that the sup720-3bxl has enough TCAM to support up to
> 1 million routes and has a backplane that can support 720Gbps.
> 
> -Matt
> 
> 
> 
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> 
> 
>  
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
> 
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
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> 
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
> 
> 
> 
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> http://signup.wispa.org/
> 
>  
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
> 
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
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> 
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Re: [WISPA] High Throughput Licensed vs. Unlicensed

[Jeff Ehman]

150 is half duplex, so not this one.  I should have specified that.  Looking 
back, to really get a true comparison you would have to look at the 300mbps 
full which comes out to about 14k street.  The licensed is FDX at 110mbps.  So, 
this actually makes the case stronger for the licensed radio.  Save about 2k.  

I believe the full (300mbps) spectrum cost is 30MHz.  I assume the cost for the 
licensed link doesn't really matter but it is somewhere around 40-50MHz.   

-Jeff
CTI
"There is a Difference"


-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf 
Of Brad Belton
Sent: Friday, April 10, 2009 9:54 AM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: Re: [WISPA] High Throughput Licensed vs. Unlicensed

Ok, I'll bite.  What UL radio set is going to produce 150Mbps FDX and at
what RF spectrum cost?


Brad


-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Jeff Ehman
Sent: Friday, April 10, 2009 9:02 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: [WISPA] High Throughput Licensed vs. Unlicensed

All,

This post is for those looking at putting in high throughput unlicensed
radios.  I can talk all day about the advantages of licensed (guarantee of
35-40db fade margin for starters) but I want to throw out some real world
numbers I am seeing.  Don't get me wrong, there is always a place for
unlicensed radios (speed to deploy...licensed takes 4-6 weeks to build, and
you can move the radios without relicensing) but there are other options on
the high capacity side right now.  Check out everything below because the
pricing for licensed has come down tremendously over the years.  Just
something to mull over this weekend.

THIS IS ALL IN APPLES TO APPLES.

~110mbps Licensed Radio
Radio + 2 foot dished + Coordination = $9,995.00
FCC Fees = $650 per side = $1,300.00
2 Power Supplies and 2 POE Adaptors = ~$638.00
TOTAL PRICE ALL IN = ~$11,933.00

~150mbps Unlicensed Radio
150mbps Connectorized Radio Link = ~$11,000
Dual Pol Antennas + Coax Jumpers = ~$400.00
TOTAL PRICE ALL IN = $11,400.00

-Jeff
CTI
"There is a Difference"




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Re: [WISPA] 10 GigE

[Gino Villarini]

Matt

Where could one subscribe to such a list? NaNog List 


Gino A. Villarini
g...@aeronetpr.com
Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
tel  787.273.4143   fax   787.273.4145

-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of mlio...@r337.com
Sent: Friday, April 10, 2009 8:13 AM
To: scubac...@gmail.com; WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] 10 GigE

> All the hard core routing and switching experts I know laugh when 
> someone suggests Cisco.
>
> Cisco is like the WalMart of networking equipment.  If you need 
> something, chances are that they have something there that will mostly

> do what it is that you need.  But if you need something for some 
> specialized need, then chances are you need to go to Juniper, Foundry,

> Nortel, etc.
>
Of course if you had sent the above to the NANOG list they would be
laughing at you. Cisco and Juniper alone are the reining champs of the
high-end routing world. Foundry and Nortel are simply not even
considered.
Right now, the Cisco CRS-1 is considered the best equipment available.

Regardless, talking about super high-end routers when Mike is only
looking for a few 10 GigE ports is silly. A Cisco 6500/7600 with
sup720-3bxl along with your 10 GigE card of choice is typically what is
deployed today.
There is a newer option from Cisco using one of the ASR series routers.
Those will cost you roughly $25k to get started in any reasonable
configuration. Whereas the sup720-3bxl option will likely cost you only
$25k well equiped with a variety of ports. I would guess a sup720-3bxl
platform with 48 10/100/1000 ports, 48 SFP ports, and 4 10 GigE ports
would run about $30k used.

It is worth noting that the sup720-3bxl has enough TCAM to support up to
1 million routes and has a backplane that can support 720Gbps.

-Matt




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Re: [WISPA] High Throughput Licensed vs. Unlicensed

[Gino Villarini]

Just the PTP600 that I think off ... 30 mhz 


Gino A. Villarini
g...@aeronetpr.com
Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
tel  787.273.4143   fax   787.273.4145

-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Brad Belton
Sent: Friday, April 10, 2009 10:54 AM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: Re: [WISPA] High Throughput Licensed vs. Unlicensed

Ok, I'll bite.  What UL radio set is going to produce 150Mbps FDX and at
what RF spectrum cost?


Brad


-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Jeff Ehman
Sent: Friday, April 10, 2009 9:02 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: [WISPA] High Throughput Licensed vs. Unlicensed

All,

This post is for those looking at putting in high throughput unlicensed
radios.  I can talk all day about the advantages of licensed (guarantee
of 35-40db fade margin for starters) but I want to throw out some real
world numbers I am seeing.  Don't get me wrong, there is always a place
for unlicensed radios (speed to deploy...licensed takes 4-6 weeks to
build, and you can move the radios without relicensing) but there are
other options on the high capacity side right now.  Check out everything
below because the pricing for licensed has come down tremendously over
the years.  Just something to mull over this weekend.

THIS IS ALL IN APPLES TO APPLES.

~110mbps Licensed Radio
Radio + 2 foot dished + Coordination = $9,995.00 FCC Fees = $650 per
side = $1,300.00
2 Power Supplies and 2 POE Adaptors = ~$638.00 TOTAL PRICE ALL IN =
~$11,933.00

~150mbps Unlicensed Radio
150mbps Connectorized Radio Link = ~$11,000 Dual Pol Antennas + Coax
Jumpers = ~$400.00 TOTAL PRICE ALL IN = $11,400.00

-Jeff
CTI
"There is a Difference"





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Re: [WISPA] Waverider EUMs for sale

[David E. Smith]

Forbes Mercy wrote:
> What brand of AP's can a 900 MHZ EUM connect to?

Waverider EUMs will only connect to Waverider CCUs, as far as I know. 
I'm reasonably certain the CCU (head-end) stuff is backwards-compatible, 
so these 3000-series EUMs should be able to talk to the newer CCUs, but 
double-check that yourself before you buy.

David Smith
MVN.net



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Re: [WISPA] High Throughput Licensed vs. Unlicensed

[Brad Belton]

Ok, I'll bite.  What UL radio set is going to produce 150Mbps FDX and at
what RF spectrum cost?


Brad


-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Jeff Ehman
Sent: Friday, April 10, 2009 9:02 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: [WISPA] High Throughput Licensed vs. Unlicensed

All,

This post is for those looking at putting in high throughput unlicensed
radios.  I can talk all day about the advantages of licensed (guarantee of
35-40db fade margin for starters) but I want to throw out some real world
numbers I am seeing.  Don't get me wrong, there is always a place for
unlicensed radios (speed to deploy...licensed takes 4-6 weeks to build, and
you can move the radios without relicensing) but there are other options on
the high capacity side right now.  Check out everything below because the
pricing for licensed has come down tremendously over the years.  Just
something to mull over this weekend.

THIS IS ALL IN APPLES TO APPLES.

~110mbps Licensed Radio
Radio + 2 foot dished + Coordination = $9,995.00
FCC Fees = $650 per side = $1,300.00
2 Power Supplies and 2 POE Adaptors = ~$638.00
TOTAL PRICE ALL IN = ~$11,933.00

~150mbps Unlicensed Radio
150mbps Connectorized Radio Link = ~$11,000
Dual Pol Antennas + Coax Jumpers = ~$400.00
TOTAL PRICE ALL IN = $11,400.00

-Jeff
CTI
"There is a Difference"




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Re: [WISPA] 10 GigE

[Charles Wu]

Hey Matt,

You're back?  Or do you just need a break from changing diapers?

-Charles

-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf 
Of mlio...@r337.com
Sent: Friday, April 10, 2009 7:13 AM
To: scubac...@gmail.com; WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] 10 GigE

> All the hard core routing and switching experts I know laugh when
> someone suggests Cisco.
>
> Cisco is like the WalMart of networking equipment.  If you need
> something, chances are that they have something there that will mostly
> do what it is that you need.  But if you need something for some
> specialized need, then chances are you need to go to Juniper, Foundry,
> Nortel, etc.
>
Of course if you had sent the above to the NANOG list they would be
laughing at you. Cisco and Juniper alone are the reining champs of the
high-end routing world. Foundry and Nortel are simply not even considered.
Right now, the Cisco CRS-1 is considered the best equipment available.

Regardless, talking about super high-end routers when Mike is only looking
for a few 10 GigE ports is silly. A Cisco 6500/7600 with sup720-3bxl along
with your 10 GigE card of choice is typically what is deployed today.
There is a newer option from Cisco using one of the ASR series routers.
Those will cost you roughly $25k to get started in any reasonable
configuration. Whereas the sup720-3bxl option will likely cost you only
$25k well equiped with a variety of ports. I would guess a sup720-3bxl
platform with 48 10/100/1000 ports, 48 SFP ports, and 4 10 GigE ports
would run about $30k used.

It is worth noting that the sup720-3bxl has enough TCAM to support up to 1
million routes and has a backplane that can support 720Gbps.

-Matt



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[WISPA] High Throughput Licensed vs. Unlicensed

[Jeff Ehman]

All,

This post is for those looking at putting in high throughput unlicensed radios. 
 I can talk all day about the advantages of licensed (guarantee of 35-40db fade 
margin for starters) but I want to throw out some real world numbers I am 
seeing.  Don't get me wrong, there is always a place for unlicensed radios 
(speed to deploy...licensed takes 4-6 weeks to build, and you can move the 
radios without relicensing) but there are other options on the high capacity 
side right now.  Check out everything below because the pricing for licensed 
has come down tremendously over the years.  Just something to mull over this 
weekend.

THIS IS ALL IN APPLES TO APPLES.

~110mbps Licensed Radio
Radio + 2 foot dished + Coordination = $9,995.00
FCC Fees = $650 per side = $1,300.00
2 Power Supplies and 2 POE Adaptors = ~$638.00
TOTAL PRICE ALL IN = ~$11,933.00

~150mbps Unlicensed Radio
150mbps Connectorized Radio Link = ~$11,000
Dual Pol Antennas + Coax Jumpers = ~$400.00
TOTAL PRICE ALL IN = $11,400.00

-Jeff
CTI
"There is a Difference"



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Re: [WISPA] 10 GigE

[Mike Hammett]

I think highly of Matt's advise when it comes to matters like this, so 
Juniper it is!  (I refuse to buy anything Cisco.)


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com



--
From: 
Sent: Friday, April 10, 2009 7:12 AM
To: ; "WISPA General List" 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] 10 GigE

>> All the hard core routing and switching experts I know laugh when
>> someone suggests Cisco.
>>
>> Cisco is like the WalMart of networking equipment.  If you need
>> something, chances are that they have something there that will mostly
>> do what it is that you need.  But if you need something for some
>> specialized need, then chances are you need to go to Juniper, Foundry,
>> Nortel, etc.
>>
> Of course if you had sent the above to the NANOG list they would be
> laughing at you. Cisco and Juniper alone are the reining champs of the
> high-end routing world. Foundry and Nortel are simply not even considered.
> Right now, the Cisco CRS-1 is considered the best equipment available.
>
> Regardless, talking about super high-end routers when Mike is only looking
> for a few 10 GigE ports is silly. A Cisco 6500/7600 with sup720-3bxl along
> with your 10 GigE card of choice is typically what is deployed today.
> There is a newer option from Cisco using one of the ASR series routers.
> Those will cost you roughly $25k to get started in any reasonable
> configuration. Whereas the sup720-3bxl option will likely cost you only
> $25k well equiped with a variety of ports. I would guess a sup720-3bxl
> platform with 48 10/100/1000 ports, 48 SFP ports, and 4 10 GigE ports
> would run about $30k used.
>
> It is worth noting that the sup720-3bxl has enough TCAM to support up to 1
> million routes and has a backplane that can support 720Gbps.
>
> -Matt
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> 
>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
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>
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> 



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Re: [WISPA] 10 GigE

[mliotta]

> All the hard core routing and switching experts I know laugh when
> someone suggests Cisco.
>
> Cisco is like the WalMart of networking equipment.  If you need
> something, chances are that they have something there that will mostly
> do what it is that you need.  But if you need something for some
> specialized need, then chances are you need to go to Juniper, Foundry,
> Nortel, etc.
>
Of course if you had sent the above to the NANOG list they would be
laughing at you. Cisco and Juniper alone are the reining champs of the
high-end routing world. Foundry and Nortel are simply not even considered.
Right now, the Cisco CRS-1 is considered the best equipment available.

Regardless, talking about super high-end routers when Mike is only looking
for a few 10 GigE ports is silly. A Cisco 6500/7600 with sup720-3bxl along
with your 10 GigE card of choice is typically what is deployed today.
There is a newer option from Cisco using one of the ASR series routers.
Those will cost you roughly $25k to get started in any reasonable
configuration. Whereas the sup720-3bxl option will likely cost you only
$25k well equiped with a variety of ports. I would guess a sup720-3bxl
platform with 48 10/100/1000 ports, 48 SFP ports, and 4 10 GigE ports
would run about $30k used.

It is worth noting that the sup720-3bxl has enough TCAM to support up to 1
million routes and has a backplane that can support 720Gbps.

-Matt



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