Re: [WISPA] Full BGP on RouterOS

[Matt]

>> Our MikroTik BGP router keeps crashing about once every month or
>> so...sometimes sooner, sometimes later.  We are using full BGP tables
>> and 4.11 currently.

Heard on Mikrotik forums 4.10 is more stable for BGP.  When it crashes
are there warning signs like high memory or CPU usage?



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Re: [WISPA] Full BGP on RouterOS

[can...@believewireless.net]

We had problems with 4.10 and went back to 4.3 and all is well.
Haven't had a reason to upgrade to 4.11 but we'll probably just move
straight to 5.0.

On Wed, Nov 3, 2010 at 7:59 AM, Matt  wrote:
>>> Our MikroTik BGP router keeps crashing about once every month or
>>> so...sometimes sooner, sometimes later.  We are using full BGP tables
>>> and 4.11 currently.
>
> Heard on Mikrotik forums 4.10 is more stable for BGP.  When it crashes
> are there warning signs like high memory or CPU usage?
>
>
> 
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Re: [WISPA] Full BGP on RouterOS

[Matt]

> We had problems with 4.10 and went back to 4.3 and all is well.
> Haven't had a reason to upgrade to 4.11 but we'll probably just move
> straight to 5.0.

Heard from Mikrotik on forums that lookups with BGP could be related
to OSPF and its fixed in v4.13 and latest v5RC.  My understanding the
OSPF bug caused lookups even if you were not using OSPF?



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Re: [WISPA] Full BGP on RouterOS

[Travis Johnson]

It's about 30" tall and weighs about 100 pounds (literally).

Travis
Microserv


On 11/3/2010 12:01 AM, Tom DeReggi wrote:
> That is way cool, to have that much "real" redundancy in a router.
> How big is Big?
>
>
> Tom DeReggi
> RapidDSL&  Wireless, Inc
> IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband
>
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Travis Johnson"
> To: "WISPA General List"
> Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2010 11:37 PM
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Full BGP on RouterOS
>
>
>> Tom,
>>
>> I agree that Linux works very well as a router, but it still doesn't
>> compare to a dedicated hardware platform (like Cisco) that was built
>> from the ground up to do nothing but routing. We purchased a used Cisco
>> 12008 router about 1.5 years ago off ebay. They are very, very cheap...
>> the only downside is they are BIG and require 240VAC. But it's way cool
>> to pull the CPU card while the router is moving 500Mbps of traffic and
>> have it not even miss a single ping (due to the redundant CPU card).
>> Same goes for the route fabric card. ;)
>>
>> We use Mikrotik for our inside "core" router and this big Cisco for our
>> border router to our BGP upstreams. I have slept very well for the last
>> 1.5 years knowing everything in the box is fully redundant (CPU, route,
>> power, etc.). :)
>>
>> Travis
>> Microserv
>>
>>
>> On 11/2/2010 9:04 PM, Tom DeReggi wrote:
>>> Note: Quagga has been very reliable for quite some time now. Imagestream
>>> and
>>> Vyatta both use Quagga. Both are great choices for BGP routers.
>>>
>>> I personally use Mandrake (Mandriva) Linux with a slew of custom
>>> modifications that we have made, loaded on SuperMicro, and then use
>>> latest
>>> Quagga.
>>> That has worked well for us, the last 5 years. (although, I dont
>>> recommend
>>> that to someone, until they are vastly familiar with their distro of
>>> Linux.
>>> Last thing you want to do is use your BGP router for a Guinee Pig Science
>>> project, rebooting it all the time to test script changes.) But once you
>>> are
>>> comfortable with your Distro, it works well.
>>>
>>> There are a million arguements "for" and "against" Cisco versus Linux, to
>>> be
>>> used for the ISPs' average NOC/POP router/switch. I dont dispute any of
>>> the
>>> arguements. But one area where I believe Linux stands tall, is as a CORE
>>> BGP
>>> router. A core BGP router can be one of the more simplistic configured
>>> routers because it only really needs to perform one function, BGP routing
>>> to
>>> its connected peers.  For BGP there are two critical needs Fast
>>> processors and Lots of RAM. In todays world there is no excuse to not
>>> have
>>> both of those.  The problem with Cisco is that it lacks both, unless you
>>> pay
>>> big bucks. Linux on the other hand has an abundance of both, when
>>> combined
>>> with PC-Like hardware.
>>>
>>>I laugh at my competitors, when they say, "oh no, BGP reset, had to
>>> reload
>>> BGP tables, now there is latency for like 3 minutes or compromised
>>> routing
>>> for that period" or "got a route problem, the small prefixes aren't in my
>>> tables". . On Linux, if you want to restart BGP, well thats like 1 second
>>> to
>>> reload tables. And no need to drop any routes, unless you want to. You
>>> could
>>> have Full routes with like 30 peers from a single router, if you wanted
>>> to.
>>> You can load up Linux with like 32 NICs (qty8 4port GIG NICs) in a 2U
>>> case,
>>> if you want to, and dont even need a Switch. (Although new will cost you
>>> about $430 per 4port PCI-E Gig NIC).
>>>
>>> Tom DeReggi
>>> RapidDSL&   Wireless, Inc
>>> IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband
>>>
>>>
>>> - Original Message -
>>> From: "Kristian Hoffmann"
>>> To: "WISPA General List"
>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2010 8:37 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Full BGP on RouterOS
>>>
>>>
 On Tue, 2010-11-02 at 18:52 -0500, Scott Lambert wrote:

> I still need to try a Vyatta system.
 I loathe the idea of managing a *nix distro on a router (which is why we
 use RouterOS now).  Apparently I've had too much Tik-aid, because I had
 completely forgotten about Vyatta and similar options.

 I have a SuperMicro 5015A-H (Atom 330 dual-core) coming in tomorrow.
 I'm going to try RouterOS and Vyatta and see how BGP responds on each
 with a single feed.  If anyone else has an x86-based distro they'd like
 to see performance on, let me know.

 And thanks for all the responses.  The information has been very
 helpful.  Unfortunately, the conclusion I came to is "I have no idea
 what I'm going to do."  Cisco = $$$ and MikroTik = coin flip.  Hopefully
 Vyatta lands somewhere in the middle.

 Thanks,

 -Kristian



 
 WISPA Wants You! Join today!
 http://signup.wispa.org/
 

 WISPA

Re: [WISPA] Full BGP on RouterOS

[Jeff Broadwick - Lists]

I'm curious Travis.not looking for an argument.

 

What specifically do you think is superior in IOS (Unix-based originally) to
a hardened, purpose-built Linux distro (us, Mikrotik, Vyatta, whatever)?

 

Regards,

 

Jeff

ImageStream

800-813-5123 x106

 

  _  

From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Travis Johnson
Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2010 11:37 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Full BGP on RouterOS

 

Tom,

I agree that Linux works very well as a router, but it still doesn't
compare to a dedicated hardware platform (like Cisco) that was built
from the ground up to do nothing but routing. We purchased a used Cisco
12008 router about 1.5 years ago off ebay. They are very, very cheap...
the only downside is they are BIG and require 240VAC. But it's way cool
to pull the CPU card while the router is moving 500Mbps of traffic and
have it not even miss a single ping (due to the redundant CPU card).
Same goes for the route fabric card. ;)

We use Mikrotik for our inside "core" router and this big Cisco for our
border router to our BGP upstreams. I have slept very well for the last
1.5 years knowing everything in the box is fully redundant (CPU, route,
power, etc.). :)

Travis
Microserv


On 11/2/2010 9:04 PM, Tom DeReggi wrote:
> Note: Quagga has been very reliable for quite some time now. Imagestream
and
> Vyatta both use Quagga. Both are great choices for BGP routers.
>
> I personally use Mandrake (Mandriva) Linux with a slew of custom
> modifications that we have made, loaded on SuperMicro, and then use latest
> Quagga.
> That has worked well for us, the last 5 years. (although, I dont recommend
> that to someone, until they are vastly familiar with their distro of
Linux.
> Last thing you want to do is use your BGP router for a Guinee Pig Science
> project, rebooting it all the time to test script changes.) But once you
are
> comfortable with your Distro, it works well.
>
> There are a million arguements "for" and "against" Cisco versus Linux, to
be
> used for the ISPs' average NOC/POP router/switch. I dont dispute any of
the
> arguements. But one area where I believe Linux stands tall, is as a CORE
BGP
> router. A core BGP router can be one of the more simplistic configured
> routers because it only really needs to perform one function, BGP routing
to
> its connected peers.  For BGP there are two critical needs Fast
> processors and Lots of RAM. In todays world there is no excuse to not have
> both of those.  The problem with Cisco is that it lacks both, unless you
pay
> big bucks. Linux on the other hand has an abundance of both, when combined
> with PC-Like hardware.
>
>   I laugh at my competitors, when they say, "oh no, BGP reset, had to
reload
> BGP tables, now there is latency for like 3 minutes or compromised routing
> for that period" or "got a route problem, the small prefixes aren't in my
> tables". . On Linux, if you want to restart BGP, well thats like 1 second
to
> reload tables. And no need to drop any routes, unless you want to. You
could
> have Full routes with like 30 peers from a single router, if you wanted
to.
> You can load up Linux with like 32 NICs (qty8 4port GIG NICs) in a 2U
case,
> if you want to, and dont even need a Switch. (Although new will cost you
> about $430 per 4port PCI-E Gig NIC).
>
> Tom DeReggi
> RapidDSL&  Wireless, Inc
> IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband
>
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Kristian Hoffmann"
> To: "WISPA General List"
> Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2010 8:37 PM
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Full BGP on RouterOS
>
>
>> On Tue, 2010-11-02 at 18:52 -0500, Scott Lambert wrote:
>>
>>> I still need to try a Vyatta system.
>> I loathe the idea of managing a *nix distro on a router (which is why we
>> use RouterOS now).  Apparently I've had too much Tik-aid, because I had
>> completely forgotten about Vyatta and similar options.
>>
>> I have a SuperMicro 5015A-H (Atom 330 dual-core) coming in tomorrow.
>> I'm going to try RouterOS and Vyatta and see how BGP responds on each
>> with a single feed.  If anyone else has an x86-based distro they'd like
>> to see performance on, let me know.
>>
>> And thanks for all the responses.  The information has been very
>> helpful.  Unfortunately, the conclusion I came to is "I have no idea
>> what I'm going to do."  Cisco = $$$ and MikroTik = coin flip.  Hopefully
>> Vyatta lands somewhere in the middle.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> -Kristian
>>
>>
>>
>>


>> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>> http://signup.wispa.org/
>>


>>
>> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>>
>> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
>> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>>
>> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>
>
>


> WISPA 

Re: [WISPA] Full BGP on RouterOS

[Travis Johnson]

Hi,

The higher end routers do their work in hardware with specific 
processors and memory for each function, which allows things like 
redundancy, speed, and hot-swap capabilities. I can pull any card from 
my Cisco router while it's running and put a different card in, 
configure it, and begin using it... all while the router is still routing.


Realize I am talking about a 12000 series Cisco, that when brand new was 
probably over $250k fully loaded they are now on Ebay for $3k.


Travis
Microserv


On 11/3/2010 9:04 AM, Jeff Broadwick - Lists wrote:


I'm curious Travis...not looking for an argument.

What specifically do you think is superior in IOS (Unix-based 
originally) to a hardened, purpose-built Linux distro (us, Mikrotik, 
Vyatta, whatever)?


Regards,

Jeff

ImageStream

800-813-5123 x106



*From:*wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] 
*On Behalf Of *Travis Johnson

*Sent:* Tuesday, November 02, 2010 11:37 PM
*To:* WISPA General List
*Subject:* Re: [WISPA] Full BGP on RouterOS

Tom,

I agree that Linux works very well as a router, but it still doesn't
compare to a dedicated hardware platform (like Cisco) that was built
from the ground up to do nothing but routing. We purchased a used Cisco
12008 router about 1.5 years ago off ebay. They are very, very cheap...
the only downside is they are BIG and require 240VAC. But it's way cool
to pull the CPU card while the router is moving 500Mbps of traffic and
have it not even miss a single ping (due to the redundant CPU card).
Same goes for the route fabric card. ;)

We use Mikrotik for our inside "core" router and this big Cisco for our
border router to our BGP upstreams. I have slept very well for the last
1.5 years knowing everything in the box is fully redundant (CPU, route,
power, etc.). :)

Travis
Microserv


On 11/2/2010 9:04 PM, Tom DeReggi wrote:
> Note: Quagga has been very reliable for quite some time now. 
Imagestream and

> Vyatta both use Quagga. Both are great choices for BGP routers.
>
> I personally use Mandrake (Mandriva) Linux with a slew of custom
> modifications that we have made, loaded on SuperMicro, and then use 
latest

> Quagga.
> That has worked well for us, the last 5 years. (although, I dont 
recommend
> that to someone, until they are vastly familiar with their distro of 
Linux.

> Last thing you want to do is use your BGP router for a Guinee Pig Science
> project, rebooting it all the time to test script changes.) But once 
you are

> comfortable with your Distro, it works well.
>
> There are a million arguements "for" and "against" Cisco versus 
Linux, to be
> used for the ISPs' average NOC/POP router/switch. I dont dispute any 
of the
> arguements. But one area where I believe Linux stands tall, is as a 
CORE BGP

> router. A core BGP router can be one of the more simplistic configured
> routers because it only really needs to perform one function, BGP 
routing to

> its connected peers.  For BGP there are two critical needs Fast
> processors and Lots of RAM. In todays world there is no excuse to not 
have
> both of those.  The problem with Cisco is that it lacks both, unless 
you pay
> big bucks. Linux on the other hand has an abundance of both, when 
combined

> with PC-Like hardware.
>
>   I laugh at my competitors, when they say, "oh no, BGP reset, had to 
reload
> BGP tables, now there is latency for like 3 minutes or compromised 
routing

> for that period" or "got a route problem, the small prefixes aren't in my
> tables". . On Linux, if you want to restart BGP, well thats like 1 
second to
> reload tables. And no need to drop any routes, unless you want to. 
You could
> have Full routes with like 30 peers from a single router, if you 
wanted to.
> You can load up Linux with like 32 NICs (qty8 4port GIG NICs) in a 2U 
case,

> if you want to, and dont even need a Switch. (Although new will cost you
> about $430 per 4port PCI-E Gig NIC).
>
> Tom DeReggi
> RapidDSL&  Wireless, Inc
> IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband
>
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Kristian Hoffmann"
> To: "WISPA General List"
> Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2010 8:37 PM
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Full BGP on RouterOS
>
>
>> On Tue, 2010-11-02 at 18:52 -0500, Scott Lambert wrote:
>>
>>> I still need to try a Vyatta system.
>> I loathe the idea of managing a *nix distro on a router (which is why we
>> use RouterOS now).  Apparently I've had too much Tik-aid, because I had
>> completely forgotten about Vyatta and similar options.
>>
>> I have a SuperMicro 5015A-H (Atom 330 dual-core) coming in tomorrow.
>> I'm going to try RouterOS and Vyatta and see how BGP responds on each
>> with a single feed.  If anyone else has an x86-based distro they'd like
>> to see performance on, let me know.
>>
>> And thanks for all the responses.  The information has been very
>> helpful.  Unfortunately, the conclusion I came to is "I have no idea
>> what I'

Re: [WISPA] PPPoE Concentrator Redundancy

[Scott Vander Dussen]

Thx both of you for the replies. We're using ImageStream routers. I've 
considered the two running in parallel and whoever responds first thing- but it 
seems like a router reboot or equipment failure or whatever would totally throw 
off the "load balancing" aspect of things from which its never really recover 
unless both routers were rebooted at the same time. Not a huge deal since I'm 
really after redundancy here, not load balancing. Just wondering how the big 
boys who use pppoe have their redundancy built out- I'm guessing something like 
the delay method.

Thanks,
‘S

---
Sent mobile (and probably one handed while driving!)

On Nov 3, 2010, at 0:00, "Blake Covarrubias"  wrote:

> I assume you're using MikroTik.
> 
> You can run multiple PPPoE servers on a single Ethernet segment. The client 
> will send its PPPoE Active Discovery Initiation (PADI) packet, and both 
> servers will reply with their PPPoE Active Discovery Offer (PADO). The client 
> will then select which AC it wants to use based off of which AC replied 
> first, AC name, service name, or any combination thereof.
> 
> http://wiki.mikrotik.com/wiki/Manual:Interface/PPPoE#Stages
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Point-to-Point_Protocol_over_Ethernet#Server_to_client:_Offer_.28PADO.29
> 
> Posting on Cisco mailing list regarding PPPoE AC redundancy.
> 
> http://puck.nether.net/pipermail/cisco-bba/2005-April/000477.html
> 
> Juniper's PPPoE AC implementation has a 'delay' feature in its 'Service Name 
> Tables' which allow an administrator to explicitly set an AC as backup.
> 
> http://www.juniper.net/techpubs/en_US/junos10.1/information-products/topic-collections/config-guide-network-interfaces/topic-40403.html#jd0e116783
> 
> Because MikroTik doesn't support this 'delay' you'd really end up just load 
> balancing your clients across the two AC's. Not a bad solution and it still 
> provides some level of redundancy.
> 
> --
> Blake Covarrubias
> 
> On Nov 2, 2010, at 11:36 PM, Scott Vander Dussen wrote:
> 
>> Cross posting from another list for different opinions..
>> 
>> We're looking to have more than one PPPoE Concentrator available so that if 
>> one goes down due to catastrophic failure, the customers associated to that 
>> concentrator will rollover to the next one. However, the concern is that 
>> because the initial connection is layer 2 that both concentrators may see 
>> the same connection attempt and authenticate both. Is there a real effective 
>> way of having two concentrators that either load balance or provide 
>> redundancy?
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> `S
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>> http://signup.wispa.org/
>> 
>> 
>> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>> 
>> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
>> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>> 
>> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
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> 



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Re: [WISPA] Full BGP on RouterOS

[Blake Covarrubias]

Hardware redundancy, wire speed packet forwarding, support for more Interface 
types, and more widely tested & stable software.

I'll use a MikroTik, Linux, or BSD box as an aggregation router any day; 
terminate some VLANs, act as an MPLS CE, perform QoS marking, and participate 
in an OSPF area. Probably nothing more. The level of hardware redundancy & 
wire-speed forwarding isn't there for my needs.

If you're just knocking IOS, I realize it isn't the wave of the future. Cisco 
does too & has developed IOS XR.

Linux, MikroTik, and I'm sure Vyatta & ImageStream are great platforms. They 
compete well with Cisco in some areas...others not so much. Use what's 
appropriate.

--
Blake Covarrubias

On Nov 3, 2010, at 8:04, "Jeff Broadwick - Lists"  wrote:

> I’m curious Travis…not looking for an argument.
> 
>  
> 
> What specifically do you think is superior in IOS (Unix-based originally) to 
> a hardened, purpose-built Linux distro (us, Mikrotik, Vyatta, whatever)?
> 
>  
> 
> Regards,
> 
>  
> 
> Jeff
> 
> ImageStream
> 
> 800-813-5123 x106
> 
>  
> 
> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On 
> Behalf Of Travis Johnson
> Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2010 11:37 PM
> To: WISPA General List
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Full BGP on RouterOS
> 
>  
> 
> Tom,
> 
> I agree that Linux works very well as a router, but it still doesn't
> compare to a dedicated hardware platform (like Cisco) that was built
> from the ground up to do nothing but routing. We purchased a used Cisco
> 12008 router about 1.5 years ago off ebay. They are very, very cheap...
> the only downside is they are BIG and require 240VAC. But it's way cool
> to pull the CPU card while the router is moving 500Mbps of traffic and
> have it not even miss a single ping (due to the redundant CPU card).
> Same goes for the route fabric card. ;)
> 
> We use Mikrotik for our inside "core" router and this big Cisco for our
> border router to our BGP upstreams. I have slept very well for the last
> 1.5 years knowing everything in the box is fully redundant (CPU, route,
> power, etc.). :)
> 
> Travis
> Microserv
> 
> 
> On 11/2/2010 9:04 PM, Tom DeReggi wrote:
> > Note: Quagga has been very reliable for quite some time now. Imagestream and
> > Vyatta both use Quagga. Both are great choices for BGP routers.
> >
> > I personally use Mandrake (Mandriva) Linux with a slew of custom
> > modifications that we have made, loaded on SuperMicro, and then use latest
> > Quagga.
> > That has worked well for us, the last 5 years. (although, I dont recommend
> > that to someone, until they are vastly familiar with their distro of Linux.
> > Last thing you want to do is use your BGP router for a Guinee Pig Science
> > project, rebooting it all the time to test script changes.) But once you are
> > comfortable with your Distro, it works well.
> >
> > There are a million arguements "for" and "against" Cisco versus Linux, to be
> > used for the ISPs' average NOC/POP router/switch. I dont dispute any of the
> > arguements. But one area where I believe Linux stands tall, is as a CORE BGP
> > router. A core BGP router can be one of the more simplistic configured
> > routers because it only really needs to perform one function, BGP routing to
> > its connected peers.  For BGP there are two critical needs Fast
> > processors and Lots of RAM. In todays world there is no excuse to not have
> > both of those.  The problem with Cisco is that it lacks both, unless you pay
> > big bucks. Linux on the other hand has an abundance of both, when combined
> > with PC-Like hardware.
> >
> >   I laugh at my competitors, when they say, "oh no, BGP reset, had to reload
> > BGP tables, now there is latency for like 3 minutes or compromised routing
> > for that period" or "got a route problem, the small prefixes aren't in my
> > tables". . On Linux, if you want to restart BGP, well thats like 1 second to
> > reload tables. And no need to drop any routes, unless you want to. You could
> > have Full routes with like 30 peers from a single router, if you wanted to.
> > You can load up Linux with like 32 NICs (qty8 4port GIG NICs) in a 2U case,
> > if you want to, and dont even need a Switch. (Although new will cost you
> > about $430 per 4port PCI-E Gig NIC).
> >
> > Tom DeReggi
> > RapidDSL&  Wireless, Inc
> > IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband
> >
> >
> > - Original Message -
> > From: "Kristian Hoffmann"
> > To: "WISPA General List"
> > Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2010 8:37 PM
> > Subject: Re: [WISPA] Full BGP on RouterOS
> >
> >
> >> On Tue, 2010-11-02 at 18:52 -0500, Scott Lambert wrote:
> >>
> >>> I still need to try a Vyatta system.
> >> I loathe the idea of managing a *nix distro on a router (which is why we
> >> use RouterOS now).  Apparently I've had too much Tik-aid, because I had
> >> completely forgotten about Vyatta and similar options.
> >>
> >> I have a SuperMicro 5015A-H (Atom 330 dual-core) coming in tomorrow.
> >> I'm going to try RouterOS and V

[WISPA] Fade Margin Calculation

[Mark Nash]

Re: [WISPA] Full BGP on RouterOSWe are in the process of going through our 
wireless network and expanding on what Nagios can do for us, like 
ReceiveSignalLevels.  This will allow us to monitor changes in signal levels 
and record history to see where we have signal loss problems.

Nagios allows you to set 3 statuses, "OK", "Warning", and "Critical".  
Currently, across the board, we have established baselines for signal levels on 
each side of our backhauls, and told Nagios to report "Warning" if the signal 
drops 5dB.  If the signal drops by 10dB, go to "Critical".

Given that we need to allow for more of a fade margin for longer links than 
shorter links...

Question: Does anyone have a calculation that you use for fade margin that 
accounts for target RSSI & distance?  We are using 5GHz unlicensed links solely.

Thanks!


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Re: [WISPA] Cisco Deal of the Day $10 Deploying License Free Wireless

[Blake Bowers]

17.63 on Amazon gets you a used copy, 30 bucks gets you a
brand new.


Don't take your organs to heaven,
heaven knows we need them down here!
Be an organ donor, sign your donor card today.

- Original Message - 
From: "Justin Wilson" 
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2010 3:15 AM
Subject: [WISPA] Cisco Deal of the Day $10 Deploying License Free Wireless


   Anyone who does not not have Jack Unger¹s book now is your time to get
it.  It is the eBook and the offer is only good for 24 hours.  Cost is
$9.99. Normally this is a $60 book.

http://www.ciscopress.com/deals/index.asp


-- 
Justin Wilson 
http://www.mtin.net/blog ­ xISP News
http://www.twitter.com/j2sw ­ Follow me on Twitter
Wisp Consulting ­ Tower Climbing ­ Network Support








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[WISPA] airMax show 12/10/10 dinner

[Jerry Richardson]

If you would like to meet for dinner after the show please let me know how many 
as we'll need to call ahead with a head count

Head count here: goo.gl/orYzQ

Looking forward to it.


[cid:image001.jpg@01CB7B47.B4DD7D60]

<><>


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Re: [WISPA] Full BGP on RouterOS

[Rubens Kuhl]

On Wed, Nov 3, 2010 at 1:04 AM, Tom DeReggi  wrote:
> Note: Quagga has been very reliable for quite some time now. Imagestream and
> Vyatta both use Quagga. Both are great choices for BGP routers.

Although it's a different scenario, the IXP folks beg to differ about
Quagga reliability. When the number of peers is high, it flops
miserably. Some of them moved to OpenBGPd, some of them to BIRD
(http://bird.network.cz). None of them moved to XORP, Mikrotik's
choice (and Vyatta's prior to switching to Quagga).

If one have time, he or she should test all of the above... with
limited time, I would favor testing BIRD first.


> I personally use Mandrake (Mandriva) Linux with a slew of custom
> modifications that we have made, loaded on SuperMicro, and then use latest
> Quagga.
> That has worked well for us, the last 5 years. (although, I dont recommend
> that to someone, until they are vastly familiar with their distro of Linux.
> Last thing you want to do is use your BGP router for a Guinee Pig Science
> project, rebooting it all the time to test script changes.) But once you are
> comfortable with your Distro, it works well.

And once you are comfortable with open-source border routing, you
might want to take it to the next level by using hardware-based
forwarding, with open-source software and gateware:
http://www.netfpga.org/


Rubens



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[WISPA] WTB: Tiltek TA-952 Omni antenna.

[Scottie Arnett]

Hey Guys,

We are needing a Tiltek TA-952 Omni antenna. We will take new or used. If you 
have one for sale, please coneact me offlist.

Thanks,
Scottie Arnett
Info-Ed, Inc.


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Re: [WISPA] Full BGP on RouterOS

[Jeff Broadwick - Lists]

Hi Blake,

 

I'm not sure what sort of speeds you think Linux limits out at, but I
believe you might be surprised at how much throughput you can get.  We
generally blow the doors off of the VXRs and down. 

 

There are two different ways of getting hardware redundancy.  One is with a
massively expensive single box, like the Cisco.  The other is to set up
redundant hardware.which is particularly good in a BGP application.  You can
have a relatively inexpensive router on each circuit, set up iBGP and VRRP
between the boxes, and BGP between the peers.  That way, if you lose
anything, all the in and outbound traffic fails to the other unit(s).  This
also allows for geographic separation of the routers.  If you can bridge
between the routers, you can have them in completely different
locations.thus keeping your network running if something really nasty
happens.

 

I can't speak for the other companies, but ImageStream has been handling BGP
for around 10 years.  We use Quagga currently and we've found it to be very
stable, as our customers on-list have attested.  It's one of our top
applications.

 

Regards,

 

Jeff

ImageStream

800-813-5123 x106

 

  _  

From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Blake Covarrubias
Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2010 11:31 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Full BGP on RouterOS

 

Hardware redundancy, wire speed packet forwarding, support for more
Interface types, and more widely tested & stable software.

 

I'll use a MikroTik, Linux, or BSD box as an aggregation router any day;
terminate some VLANs, act as an MPLS CE, perform QoS marking, and
participate in an OSPF area. Probably nothing more. The level of hardware
redundancy & wire-speed forwarding isn't there for my needs.

 

If you're just knocking IOS, I realize it isn't the wave of the future.
Cisco does too & has developed IOS XR.

 

Linux, MikroTik, and I'm sure Vyatta & ImageStream are great platforms. They
compete well with Cisco in some areas...others not so much. Use what's
appropriate.

 

--

Blake Covarrubias


On Nov 3, 2010, at 8:04, "Jeff Broadwick - Lists" <
  
 jeffl...@att.net> wrote:

I'm curious Travis.not looking for an argument.

 

What specifically do you think is superior in IOS (Unix-based originally) to
a hardened, purpose-built Linux distro (us, Mikrotik, Vyatta, whatever)?

 

Regards,

 

Jeff

ImageStream

800-813-5123 x106

 


  _  


From:  
  
wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of
Travis Johnson
Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2010 11:37 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Full BGP on RouterOS

 

Tom,

I agree that Linux works very well as a router, but it still doesn't
compare to a dedicated hardware platform (like Cisco) that was built
from the ground up to do nothing but routing. We purchased a used Cisco
12008 router about 1.5 years ago off ebay. They are very, very cheap...
the only downside is they are BIG and require 240VAC. But it's way cool
to pull the CPU card while the router is moving 500Mbps of traffic and
have it not even miss a single ping (due to the redundant CPU card).
Same goes for the route fabric card. ;)

We use Mikrotik for our inside "core" router and this big Cisco for our
border router to our BGP upstreams. I have slept very well for the last
1.5 years knowing everything in the box is fully redundant (CPU, route,
power, etc.). :)

Travis
Microserv


On 11/2/2010 9:04 PM, Tom DeReggi wrote:
> Note: Quagga has been very reliable for quite some time now. Imagestream
and
> Vyatta both use Quagga. Both are great choices for BGP routers.
>
> I personally use Mandrake (Mandriva) Linux with a slew of custom
> modifications that we have made, loaded on SuperMicro, and then use latest
> Quagga.
> That has worked well for us, the last 5 years. (although, I dont recommend
> that to someone, until they are vastly familiar with their distro of
Linux.
> Last thing you want to do is use your BGP router for a Guinee Pig Science
> project, rebooting it all the time to test script changes.) But once you
are
> comfortable with your Distro, it works well.
>
> There are a million arguements "for" and "against" Cisco versus Linux, to
be
> used for the ISPs' average NOC/POP router/switch. I dont dispute any of
the
> arguements. But one area where I believe Linux stands tall, is as a CORE
BGP
> router. A core BGP router can be one of the more simplistic configured
> routers because it only really needs to perform one function, BGP routing
to
> its connected peers.  For BGP there are two critical needs Fast
> processors and Lots of RAM. In todays world there is no excuse to not have
> both of those.  The problem with Cisco is that it lacks both, unless you
pay
> big bucks. Linux on the other hand

Re: [WISPA] Full BGP on RouterOS

[Tom DeReggi]

> When the number of peers is high, it flops
> miserably.

I always wonder if that is an Education issue instead of a Quagga issue. 
Being connected to more peers enables more chances for bad routes sent or 
compatibility issues.

One advantage of Quagga is its support base. Smarter people than I 
contribute to the code base. Because Quagga is used in many appliance's OS, 
and those manufacturer's programmers are likely to contribute to the Quagga 
source.  Atleast Vyatta did.

I'm not in an position technically to be able to comment on how Quagga 
compares to BIRD or OpenBGPd.
But its good to know there are choices out there. (Note: I think Imagestream 
also offered GateD at one point as a choice, but I believe GateD no longer 
stacks up to Quagga)

One negative thing about Quagga is that its "authentication" feature is not 
natively supported. So might need to run open, and use firewalling and 
filters to compensate, for lack of security.

> might want to take it to the next level by using hardware-based
> forwarding, with open-source software and gateware:
> http://www.netfpga.org/

Interesting to learn of and read.
Although, I question at what point something like Hardware forwarding is 
really needed.
With QuadCoreCPE or Dual Quad,  PCI-E, NAPI, and I/0 scaling accross cores, 
just right there the forwarding speed is fantastic, into the multi-Gigbit 
(10gb).
And as well, with newer XEON (5 series) AT/IO can add to it. (Although some 
work involved to enable such).
Although it might not get full wire speed, it gets close. The advantage of 
sticking with Intel, is once again the support base. Writing drivers is 
often above the tech know how of the average ISP tech, and with Intel, a lot 
of the work is done for you by the commuity. But most importantly, that once 
Intel driver is selected, that you know there is a huge amount of hardware 
that will be available long term to use that code, without going back to the 
code writing drawing board.


Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: "Rubens Kuhl" 
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2010 3:51 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Full BGP on RouterOS


> On Wed, Nov 3, 2010 at 1:04 AM, Tom DeReggi  
> wrote:
>> Note: Quagga has been very reliable for quite some time now. Imagestream 
>> and
>> Vyatta both use Quagga. Both are great choices for BGP routers.
>
> Although it's a different scenario, the IXP folks beg to differ about
> Quagga reliability. When the number of peers is high, it flops
> miserably. Some of them moved to OpenBGPd, some of them to BIRD
> (http://bird.network.cz). None of them moved to XORP, Mikrotik's
> choice (and Vyatta's prior to switching to Quagga).
>
> If one have time, he or she should test all of the above... with
> limited time, I would favor testing BIRD first.
>
>
>> I personally use Mandrake (Mandriva) Linux with a slew of custom
>> modifications that we have made, loaded on SuperMicro, and then use 
>> latest
>> Quagga.
>> That has worked well for us, the last 5 years. (although, I dont 
>> recommend
>> that to someone, until they are vastly familiar with their distro of 
>> Linux.
>> Last thing you want to do is use your BGP router for a Guinee Pig Science
>> project, rebooting it all the time to test script changes.) But once you 
>> are
>> comfortable with your Distro, it works well.
>
> And once you are comfortable with open-source border routing, you
> might want to take it to the next level by using hardware-based
> forwarding, with open-source software and gateware:
> http://www.netfpga.org/
>
>
> Rubens
>
>
> 
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Re: [WISPA] Full BGP on RouterOS

[Blake Covarrubias]

Jeff,

VXRs and down. Not GSR's and up. I wasn't entirely clear in my last message. 
Like Travis I was also commenting about the Cisco GSR / 12000 platform. I'm 
well aware of the performance of a Linux box compared to a VXR. We run a few 
VXR routers in our network in addition to GSR's, BSD routers, and MikroTik.

What you're describing really isn't true hardware redundancy. I'm also well 
aware of BGP and its use in a multi-homed environment. We have two separate 
GSRs acting as our edge routers. One in California, one in Arizona. Both 
routers have multiple eBGP peers, and run iBGP between them. They're connected 
by a series of licensed microwave radios with about 155mbps of bandwidth 
between the two. We'll be supplementing that link with a dedicated GigE fiber 
link in the coming months.

I'm not sure what you're getting at regarding bridging between two connections. 
There's no requirement to run a bridged network in order to operate iBGP.

I have no doubt Quagga works well in some BGP applications. We don't use it 
because we have requirements for performance & uptime which a Linux/BSD box 
cannot currently meet. We provide voice (TDM) and data services for companies 
in various industries such as mining, manufacturing, aerospace, defense, 
energy, cellular, and even other ISPs. We literally cannot afford to wrestle 
with the issues others on this list experience. If its not reliable we replace 
it. We don't have a problem paying for reliability.

--
Blake Covarrubias

On Nov 3, 2010, at 1:16 PM, Jeff Broadwick - Lists wrote:

> Hi Blake,
>  
> I’m not sure what sort of speeds you think Linux limits out at, but I believe 
> you might be surprised at how much throughput you can get.  We generally blow 
> the doors off of the VXRs and down.
>  
> There are two different ways of getting hardware redundancy.  One is with a 
> massively expensive single box, like the Cisco.  The other is to set up 
> redundant hardware…which is particularly good in a BGP application.  You can 
> have a relatively inexpensive router on each circuit, set up iBGP and VRRP 
> between the boxes, and BGP between the peers.  That way, if you lose 
> anything, all the in and outbound traffic fails to the other unit(s).  This 
> also allows for geographic separation of the routers.  If you can bridge 
> between the routers, you can have them in completely different locations…thus 
> keeping your network running if something really nasty happens.
>  
> I can’t speak for the other companies, but ImageStream has been handling BGP 
> for around 10 years.  We use Quagga currently and we’ve found it to be very 
> stable, as our customers on-list have attested.  It’s one of our top 
> applications.
>  
> Regards,
>  
> Jeff
> ImageStream
> 800-813-5123 x106
>  
> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On 
> Behalf Of Blake Covarrubias
> Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2010 11:31 AM
> To: WISPA General List
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Full BGP on RouterOS
>  
> Hardware redundancy, wire speed packet forwarding, support for more Interface 
> types, and more widely tested & stable software.
>  
> I'll use a MikroTik, Linux, or BSD box as an aggregation router any day; 
> terminate some VLANs, act as an MPLS CE, perform QoS marking, and participate 
> in an OSPF area. Probably nothing more. The level of hardware redundancy & 
> wire-speed forwarding isn't there for my needs.
>  
> If you're just knocking IOS, I realize it isn't the wave of the future. Cisco 
> does too & has developed IOS XR.
>  
> Linux, MikroTik, and I'm sure Vyatta & ImageStream are great platforms. They 
> compete well with Cisco in some areas...others not so much. Use what's 
> appropriate.
>  
> --
> Blake Covarrubias
> 
> On Nov 3, 2010, at 8:04, "Jeff Broadwick - Lists"  wrote:
> 
>> I’m curious Travis…not looking for an argument.
>>  
>> What specifically do you think is superior in IOS (Unix-based originally) to 
>> a hardened, purpose-built Linux distro (us, Mikrotik, Vyatta, whatever)?
>>  
>> Regards,
>>  
>> Jeff
>> ImageStream
>> 800-813-5123 x106
>>  
>> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On 
>> Behalf Of Travis Johnson
>> Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2010 11:37 PM
>> To: WISPA General List
>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Full BGP on RouterOS
>>  
>> Tom,
>> 
>> I agree that Linux works very well as a router, but it still doesn't
>> compare to a dedicated hardware platform (like Cisco) that was built
>> from the ground up to do nothing but routing. We purchased a used Cisco
>> 12008 router about 1.5 years ago off ebay. They are very, very cheap...
>> the only downside is they are BIG and require 240VAC. But it's way cool
>> to pull the CPU card while the router is moving 500Mbps of traffic and
>> have it not even miss a single ping (due to the redundant CPU card).
>> Same goes for the route fabric card. ;)
>> 
>> We use Mikrotik for our inside "core" router and this big Cisco for our
>> border router to our BG

Re: [WISPA] Change AP

[Ryan Spott]

You can put 'the guts' of a TR-902 into a mikrotik.

ryan



On Wed, Nov 3, 2010 at 2:50 PM, ~NGL~  wrote:

>  Is there anyway to change from a TR-902 AP to something else, and use the
> existing TR-902 Clients?
> Thanx
> NGL
>   If you can read this Thank A Teacher.
> And if it's in English Thank A Soldier!
>
>
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
>
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>
<>


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Re: [WISPA] Change AP

[Jerry Richardson]

Ubiquity?

Jerry Richardson
Sent Mobile

On Nov 3, 2010, at 4:16 PM, "Ryan Spott" 
mailto:rsp...@irongoat.net>> wrote:

You can put 'the guts' of a TR-902 into a mikrotik.

ryan



On Wed, Nov 3, 2010 at 2:50 PM, ~NGL~ 
<n...@ngl.net> wrote:
Is there anyway to change from a TR-902 AP to something else, and use the 
existing TR-902 Clients?
Thanx
NGL
  If you can read this Thank A Teacher.
And if it's in English Thank A Soldier!




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Re: [WISPA] Change AP

[~NGL~]

Which model?
  From: Jerry Richardson 
  Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2010 4:19 PM
  To: WISPA General List 
  Subject: Re: [WISPA] Change AP


  Ubiquity?

  Jerry Richardson 
  Sent Mobile

  On Nov 3, 2010, at 4:16 PM, "Ryan Spott"  wrote:


You can put 'the guts' of a TR-902 into a mikrotik. 


ryan





On Wed, Nov 3, 2010 at 2:50 PM, ~NGL~  wrote:

  Is there anyway to change from a TR-902 AP to something else, and use the 
existing TR-902 Clients?
  Thanx
  NGL
 If you can read this Thank A Teacher.
And if it's in English Thank A Soldier! 




  

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Re: [WISPA] Change AP

[Chris Gotstein]

You can run a MT RB with a GZ901 radio card.  Matt Larson got it working 
and i'm using it currently with great results.  Here are the details 
from Matt:

Verified on my bench this morning, I was able to get a Tranzeo
SL9-8 to
associate with an RB493AH with a GZ901 card on 5mhz channels.

The trickiest part turned out to be finding the correct channel
settings.

I had to set the country mode to Australia in order to get access
to the
923 channel. Once that was done, all four of the Tranzeo channels
worked flawlessly. Here is the channel map:

2452 = 908
2457 = 913
2462 = 918
2467 = 923

On 11/3/2010 6:23 PM, ~NGL~ wrote:
> Which model?
>
> *From:* Jerry Richardson 
> *Sent:* Wednesday, November 03, 2010 4:19 PM
> *To:* WISPA General List 
> *Subject:* Re: [WISPA] Change AP
>
> Ubiquity?
>
> Jerry Richardson
> Sent Mobile
>
> On Nov 3, 2010, at 4:16 PM, "Ryan Spott"  > wrote:
>
>> You can put 'the guts' of a TR-902 into a mikrotik.
>>
>> ryan
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Nov 3, 2010 at 2:50 PM, ~NGL~
>> <n...@ngl.net > wrote:
>>
>> Is there anyway to change from a TR-902 AP to something else,
>> and use the existing TR-902 Clients?
>> Thanx
>> NGL
>>If you can read this Thank A Teacher.
>> And if it's in English Thank A Soldier!
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> 
>> 
>> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>> http://signup.wispa.org/
>> 
>> 
>>
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>> wireless@wispa.org
>> 
>>
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>> 
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>>
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>> 
>> http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>>
>>
>> 
>
> 
>
>
>
> 
> 
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Chris Gotstein, Network Engineer, U.P. Logon/Computer Connection U.P.
http://uplogon.com | +1 906 774 4847 | ch...@uplogon.com



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Re: [WISPA] Change AP

[~NGL~]

I know nothing regarding MT RB or Gz901. When you set these up did you use 
any Tranzeo firmware. I have reboot my TR-902 AP's a couple times a day, its 
getting to be a pain.
What is the cost of these?
NGL

--
From: "Chris Gotstein" 
Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2010 4:59 PM
To: "WISPA General List" 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Change AP

> You can run a MT RB with a GZ901 radio card.  Matt Larson got it working
> and i'm using it currently with great results.  Here are the details
> from Matt:
>
> Verified on my bench this morning, I was able to get a Tranzeo
> SL9-8 to
> associate with an RB493AH with a GZ901 card on 5mhz channels.
>
> The trickiest part turned out to be finding the correct channel
> settings.
>
> I had to set the country mode to Australia in order to get access
> to the
> 923 channel. Once that was done, all four of the Tranzeo channels
> worked flawlessly. Here is the channel map:
>
> 2452 = 908
> 2457 = 913
> 2462 = 918
> 2467 = 923
>
> On 11/3/2010 6:23 PM, ~NGL~ wrote:
>> Which model?
>>
>> *From:* Jerry Richardson 
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, November 03, 2010 4:19 PM
>> *To:* WISPA General List 
>> *Subject:* Re: [WISPA] Change AP
>>
>> Ubiquity?
>>
>> Jerry Richardson
>> Sent Mobile
>>
>> On Nov 3, 2010, at 4:16 PM, "Ryan Spott" > > wrote:
>>
>>> You can put 'the guts' of a TR-902 into a mikrotik.
>>>
>>> ryan
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Nov 3, 2010 at 2:50 PM, ~NGL~
>>> <n...@ngl.net > wrote:
>>>
>>> Is there anyway to change from a TR-902 AP to something else,
>>> and use the existing TR-902 Clients?
>>> Thanx
>>> NGL
>>>  If you can read this Thank A Teacher.
>>> And if it's in English Thank A Soldier!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 
>>> 
>>> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>>> http://signup.wispa.org/
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>>> wireless@wispa.org
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>>> 
>>
>> 
>>
>>
>>
>> 
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>
> -- 
>    
> Chris Gotstein, Network Engineer, U.P. Logon/Computer Connection U.P.
> http://uplogon.com | +1 906 774 4847 | ch...@uplogon.com
>
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Re: [WISPA] Change AP

[Chris Gotstein]

I use a Mikrotik RB411AH board with a GZ902 radio card.  Cost for the 
whole thing with outdoor case and parts came in around $400.

On 11/3/2010 7:14 PM, ~NGL~ wrote:
> I know nothing regarding MT RB or Gz901. When you set these up did you use
> any Tranzeo firmware. I have reboot my TR-902 AP's a couple times a day, its
> getting to be a pain.
> What is the cost of these?
> NGL
>
> --
> From: "Chris Gotstein"
> Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2010 4:59 PM
> To: "WISPA General List"
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Change AP
>
>> You can run a MT RB with a GZ901 radio card.  Matt Larson got it working
>> and i'm using it currently with great results.  Here are the details
>> from Matt:
>>
>> Verified on my bench this morning, I was able to get a Tranzeo
>> SL9-8 to
>> associate with an RB493AH with a GZ901 card on 5mhz channels.
>>
>> The trickiest part turned out to be finding the correct channel
>> settings.
>>
>> I had to set the country mode to Australia in order to get access
>> to the
>> 923 channel. Once that was done, all four of the Tranzeo channels
>> worked flawlessly. Here is the channel map:
>>
>> 2452 = 908
>> 2457 = 913
>> 2462 = 918
>> 2467 = 923
>>
>> On 11/3/2010 6:23 PM, ~NGL~ wrote:
>>> Which model?
>>>
>>>  *From:* Jerry Richardson
>>>  *Sent:* Wednesday, November 03, 2010 4:19 PM
>>>  *To:* WISPA General List
>>>  *Subject:* Re: [WISPA] Change AP
>>>
>>>  Ubiquity?
>>>
>>>  Jerry Richardson
>>>  Sent Mobile
>>>
>>>  On Nov 3, 2010, at 4:16 PM, "Ryan Spott">>  >  wrote:
>>>
  You can put 'the guts' of a TR-902 into a mikrotik.

  ryan



  On Wed, Nov 3, 2010 at 2:50 PM, ~NGL~
  <n...@ngl.net>  wrote:

  Is there anyway to change from a TR-902 AP to something else,
  and use the existing TR-902 Clients?
  Thanx
  NGL
If you can read this Thank A Teacher.
  And if it's in English Thank A Soldier!




  
 
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>>>
>>>  
>>> 
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  
>>> 
>>>  WISPA Wants You! Join today!
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>>>
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>>
>> --
>>    
>> Chris Gotstein, Network Engineer, U.P. Logon/Computer Connection U.P.
>> http://uplogon.com | +1 906 774 4847 | ch...@uplogon.com
>>
>>
>> 
>> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
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-- 
   
Chris Go

Re: [WISPA] Change AP

[Chris Gotstein]

And it's running RouterOS.  The card is what allows you to talk to the 
tranzeo radios.

On 11/3/2010 7:14 PM, ~NGL~ wrote:
> I know nothing regarding MT RB or Gz901. When you set these up did you use
> any Tranzeo firmware. I have reboot my TR-902 AP's a couple times a day, its
> getting to be a pain.
> What is the cost of these?
> NGL
>
> --
> From: "Chris Gotstein"
> Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2010 4:59 PM
> To: "WISPA General List"
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Change AP
>
>> You can run a MT RB with a GZ901 radio card.  Matt Larson got it working
>> and i'm using it currently with great results.  Here are the details
>> from Matt:
>>
>> Verified on my bench this morning, I was able to get a Tranzeo
>> SL9-8 to
>> associate with an RB493AH with a GZ901 card on 5mhz channels.
>>
>> The trickiest part turned out to be finding the correct channel
>> settings.
>>
>> I had to set the country mode to Australia in order to get access
>> to the
>> 923 channel. Once that was done, all four of the Tranzeo channels
>> worked flawlessly. Here is the channel map:
>>
>> 2452 = 908
>> 2457 = 913
>> 2462 = 918
>> 2467 = 923
>>
>> On 11/3/2010 6:23 PM, ~NGL~ wrote:
>>> Which model?
>>>
>>>  *From:* Jerry Richardson
>>>  *Sent:* Wednesday, November 03, 2010 4:19 PM
>>>  *To:* WISPA General List
>>>  *Subject:* Re: [WISPA] Change AP
>>>
>>>  Ubiquity?
>>>
>>>  Jerry Richardson
>>>  Sent Mobile
>>>
>>>  On Nov 3, 2010, at 4:16 PM, "Ryan Spott">>  >  wrote:
>>>
  You can put 'the guts' of a TR-902 into a mikrotik.

  ryan



  On Wed, Nov 3, 2010 at 2:50 PM, ~NGL~
  <n...@ngl.net>  wrote:

  Is there anyway to change from a TR-902 AP to something else,
  and use the existing TR-902 Clients?
  Thanx
  NGL
If you can read this Thank A Teacher.
  And if it's in English Thank A Soldier!




  
 
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  http://signup.wispa.org/
  
 

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>>>
>>>  
>>> 
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  
>>> 
>>>  WISPA Wants You! Join today!
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>>> 
>>>
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>>
>> --
>>    
>> Chris Gotstein, Network Engineer, U.P. Logon/Computer Connection U.P.
>> http://uplogon.com | +1 906 774 4847 | ch...@uplogon.com
>>
>>
>> 
>> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
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-- 
   
Chris Gotstein, Network Engineer, U.P. Logon/Compute

Re: [WISPA] Change AP

[Josh Luthman]

I'm sure you can get something under $400, maybe closer to $300.  Not cheap,
but that's another $100 in the pocket.

Not familiar with 900 MT/Tranzeo hardware.  If you can crack open the
Tranzeo box and put in an RB in place of their mobo you'd be set.

Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373


On Wed, Nov 3, 2010 at 8:16 PM, Chris Gotstein  wrote:

> I use a Mikrotik RB411AH board with a GZ902 radio card.  Cost for the
> whole thing with outdoor case and parts came in around $400.
>
> On 11/3/2010 7:14 PM, ~NGL~ wrote:
> > I know nothing regarding MT RB or Gz901. When you set these up did you
> use
> > any Tranzeo firmware. I have reboot my TR-902 AP's a couple times a day,
> its
> > getting to be a pain.
> > What is the cost of these?
> > NGL
> >
> > --
> > From: "Chris Gotstein"
> > Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2010 4:59 PM
> > To: "WISPA General List"
> > Subject: Re: [WISPA] Change AP
> >
> >> You can run a MT RB with a GZ901 radio card.  Matt Larson got it working
> >> and i'm using it currently with great results.  Here are the details
> >> from Matt:
> >>
> >> Verified on my bench this morning, I was able to get a Tranzeo
> >> SL9-8 to
> >> associate with an RB493AH with a GZ901 card on 5mhz channels.
> >>
> >> The trickiest part turned out to be finding the correct channel
> >> settings.
> >>
> >> I had to set the country mode to Australia in order to get access
> >> to the
> >> 923 channel. Once that was done, all four of the Tranzeo channels
> >> worked flawlessly. Here is the channel map:
> >>
> >> 2452 = 908
> >> 2457 = 913
> >> 2462 = 918
> >> 2467 = 923
> >>
> >> On 11/3/2010 6:23 PM, ~NGL~ wrote:
> >>> Which model?
> >>>
> >>>  *From:* Jerry Richardson
> >>>  *Sent:* Wednesday, November 03, 2010 4:19 PM
> >>>  *To:* WISPA General List
> >>>  *Subject:* Re: [WISPA] Change AP
> >>>
> >>>  Ubiquity?
> >>>
> >>>  Jerry Richardson
> >>>  Sent Mobile
> >>>
> >>>  On Nov 3, 2010, at 4:16 PM, "Ryan Spott" >>>  >  wrote:
> >>>
>   You can put 'the guts' of a TR-902 into a mikrotik.
> 
>   ryan
> 
> 
> 
>   On Wed, Nov 3, 2010 at 2:50 PM, ~NGL~
>   <n...@ngl.net>  wrote:
> 
>   Is there anyway to change from a TR-902 AP to something else,
>   and use the existing TR-902 Clients?
>   Thanx
>   NGL
> If you can read this Thank A Teacher.
>   And if it's in English Thank A Soldier!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
>   WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>   http://signup.wispa.org/
> 
>  
> 
> 
>   WISPA Wireless List:
>   wireless@wispa.org
>   
> 
>   Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> 
>  
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
> 
>   Archives:
> 
>  
> http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
> 
> 
>   
> >>>
> >>>
>  
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
>  
> 
> >>>  WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> >>>  http://signup.wispa.org/
> >>>
>  
> 
> >>>
> >>>  WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
> >>>
> >>>  Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> >>>  http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
> >>>
> >>>  Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> 
> >>> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> >>> http://signup.wispa.org/
> >>>
> 
> >>>
> >>> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
> >>>
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> >>> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
> >>>
> >>> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
> >>
> >> --
> >>    
> >> Chris Gotstein, Network Engineer, U.P. Logon/Computer Connection U.P.
> >> http://uplogon.com | +1 906 774 4847 | ch...@uplogon.com
> >>
> >>
> >>
> 
> >> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> >> http://signup.wispa.org/
> >>
> ---

Re: [WISPA] Change AP

[Chris Gotstein]

The GZ902 is the expensive part, finding them is even more fun.

On 11/3/2010 7:19 PM, Josh Luthman wrote:
> I'm sure you can get something under $400, maybe closer to $300.  Not
> cheap, but that's another $100 in the pocket.
>
> Not familiar with 900 MT/Tranzeo hardware.  If you can crack open the
> Tranzeo box and put in an RB in place of their mobo you'd be set.
>
> Josh Luthman
> Office: 937-552-2340
> Direct: 937-552-2343
> 1100 Wayne St
> Suite 1337
> Troy, OH 45373
>
>
> On Wed, Nov 3, 2010 at 8:16 PM, Chris Gotstein  > wrote:
>
> I use a Mikrotik RB411AH board with a GZ902 radio card.  Cost for the
> whole thing with outdoor case and parts came in around $400.
>
> On 11/3/2010 7:14 PM, ~NGL~ wrote:
>  > I know nothing regarding MT RB or Gz901. When you set these up
> did you use
>  > any Tranzeo firmware. I have reboot my TR-902 AP's a couple times
> a day, its
>  > getting to be a pain.
>  > What is the cost of these?
>  > NGL
>  >
>  > --
>  > From: "Chris Gotstein"mailto:ch...@uplogon.com>>
>  > Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2010 4:59 PM
>  > To: "WISPA General List" >
>  > Subject: Re: [WISPA] Change AP
>  >
>  >> You can run a MT RB with a GZ901 radio card.  Matt Larson got it
> working
>  >> and i'm using it currently with great results.  Here are the details
>  >> from Matt:
>  >>
>  >> Verified on my bench this morning, I was able to get a Tranzeo
>  >> SL9-8 to
>  >> associate with an RB493AH with a GZ901 card on 5mhz channels.
>  >>
>  >> The trickiest part turned out to be finding the correct channel
>  >> settings.
>  >>
>  >> I had to set the country mode to Australia in order to get access
>  >> to the
>  >> 923 channel. Once that was done, all four of the Tranzeo channels
>  >> worked flawlessly. Here is the channel map:
>  >>
>  >> 2452 = 908
>  >> 2457 = 913
>  >> 2462 = 918
>  >> 2467 = 923
>  >>
>  >> On 11/3/2010 6:23 PM, ~NGL~ wrote:
>  >>> Which model?
>  >>>
>  >>>  *From:* Jerry Richardson >
>  >>>  *Sent:* Wednesday, November 03, 2010 4:19 PM
>  >>>  *To:* WISPA General List >
>  >>>  *Subject:* Re: [WISPA] Change AP
>  >>>
>  >>>  Ubiquity?
>  >>>
>  >>>  Jerry Richardson
>  >>>  Sent Mobile
>  >>>
>  >>>  On Nov 3, 2010, at 4:16 PM, "Ryan
> Spott"mailto:rsp...@irongoat.net>
>  >>> >>  wrote:
>  >>>
>    You can put 'the guts' of a TR-902 into a mikrotik.
>  
>    ryan
>  
>  
>  
>    On Wed, Nov 3, 2010 at 2:50 PM, ~NGL~
>   <>n...@ngl.net
> >>  wrote:
>  
>    Is there anyway to change from a TR-902 AP to
> something else,
>    and use the existing TR-902 Clients?
>    Thanx
>    NGL
>     If you can read this Thank A Teacher.
>    And if it's in English Thank A Soldier!
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
>   
> 
>    WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>   http://signup.wispa.org/
>  
>   
> 
>  
>    WISPA Wireless List:
>    >wireless@wispa.org
> 
>   >
>  
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>  
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>    Archives:
>  
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>  
>  
>   
>  >>>
>  >>>
>   
>  >>>
>  >>>
>  >>>
>  >>>
>   
> 
>  >>>  WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>  >>> http://signup.wispa.org/
>  >>>
>   
> 
>  >>>
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> 

Re: [WISPA] Full BGP on RouterOS

[Scott Reed]

OK, elaborate on how 2 distinct identical boxes is not hardware 
redundancy.  I think by the definition of redundancy, it is 100%. 
Webster: characterized by similarity or repetition particularly /redundant/ brick buildings


On 11/3/2010 6:45 PM, Blake Covarrubias wrote:

Jeff,

VXRs and down. Not GSR's and up. I wasn't entirely clear in my last message. 
Like Travis I was also commenting about the Cisco GSR / 12000 platform. I'm 
well aware of the performance of a Linux box compared to a VXR. We run a few 
VXR routers in our network in addition to GSR's, BSD routers, and MikroTik.

What you're describing really isn't true hardware redundancy. I'm also well 
aware of BGP and its use in a multi-homed environment. We have two separate 
GSRs acting as our edge routers. One in California, one in Arizona. Both 
routers have multiple eBGP peers, and run iBGP between them. They're connected 
by a series of licensed microwave radios with about 155mbps of bandwidth 
between the two. We'll be supplementing that link with a dedicated GigE fiber 
link in the coming months.

I'm not sure what you're getting at regarding bridging between two connections. 
There's no requirement to run a bridged network in order to operate iBGP.

I have no doubt Quagga works well in some BGP applications. We don't use it because 
we have requirements for performance&  uptime which a Linux/BSD box cannot 
currently meet. We provide voice (TDM) and data services for companies in various 
industries such as mining, manufacturing, aerospace, defense, energy, cellular, and 
even other ISPs. We literally cannot afford to wrestle with the issues others on 
this list experience. If its not reliable we replace it. We don't have a problem 
paying for reliability.

--
Blake Covarrubias

On Nov 3, 2010, at 1:16 PM, Jeff Broadwick - Lists wrote:


Hi Blake,

I’m not sure what sort of speeds you think Linux limits out at, but I believe 
you might be surprised at how much throughput you can get.  We generally blow 
the doors off of the VXRs and down.

There are two different ways of getting hardware redundancy.  One is with a 
massively expensive single box, like the Cisco.  The other is to set up 
redundant hardware…which is particularly good in a BGP application.  You can 
have a relatively inexpensive router on each circuit, set up iBGP and VRRP 
between the boxes, and BGP between the peers.  That way, if you lose anything, 
all the in and outbound traffic fails to the other unit(s).  This also allows 
for geographic separation of the routers.  If you can bridge between the 
routers, you can have them in completely different locations…thus keeping your 
network running if something really nasty happens.

I can’t speak for the other companies, but ImageStream has been handling BGP 
for around 10 years.  We use Quagga currently and we’ve found it to be very 
stable, as our customers on-list have attested.  It’s one of our top 
applications.

Regards,

Jeff
ImageStream
800-813-5123 x106

From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf 
Of Blake Covarrubias
Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2010 11:31 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Full BGP on RouterOS

Hardware redundancy, wire speed packet forwarding, support for more Interface 
types, and more widely tested&  stable software.

I'll use a MikroTik, Linux, or BSD box as an aggregation router any day; terminate 
some VLANs, act as an MPLS CE, perform QoS marking, and participate in an OSPF 
area. Probably nothing more. The level of hardware redundancy&  wire-speed 
forwarding isn't there for my needs.

If you're just knocking IOS, I realize it isn't the wave of the future. Cisco does 
too&  has developed IOS XR.

Linux, MikroTik, and I'm sure Vyatta&  ImageStream are great platforms. They 
compete well with Cisco in some areas...others not so much. Use what's appropriate.

--
Blake Covarrubias

On Nov 3, 2010, at 8:04, "Jeff Broadwick - Lists"  wrote:


I’m curious Travis…not looking for an argument.

What specifically do you think is superior in IOS (Unix-based originally) to a 
hardened, purpose-built Linux distro (us, Mikrotik, Vyatta, whatever)?

Regards,

Jeff
ImageStream
800-813-5123 x106

From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf 
Of Travis Johnson
Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2010 11:37 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Full BGP on RouterOS

Tom,

I agree that Linux works very well as a router, but it still doesn't
compare to a dedicated hardware platform (like Cisco) that was built
from the ground up to do nothing but routing. We purchased a used Cisco
12008 router about 1.5 years ago off ebay. They are very, very cheap...
the only downside is they are BIG and require 240VAC. But it's way cool
to pull the CPU card while the router is moving 500Mbps of traffic and
have it not even miss a single ping (due to the redundant CPU card).
Same goes for the route fabric card. ;)

We use Mikrotik for our inside "

Re: [WISPA] Full BGP on RouterOS

[John Thomas]

You can *probably* do full tables on a pair of 1941's or 2900 Series 
Cisco's these days. With a pair of 1 U routers using VRRP or HSRP, you 
should be good to go.

John

On 11/2/2010 11:14 PM, Tom DeReggi wrote:
> Actually, answered own question... Saw picts on Google.
>
> Pretty sweet switch/router (12000 series), as long as its not sitting in an
> Equinix cage at $50/ 1U / month. Probably would costs $500-$700/mon to colo.
>
>
> Tom DeReggi
> RapidDSL&  Wireless, Inc
> IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband
>
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Travis Johnson"
> To: "WISPA General List"
> Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2010 11:37 PM
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Full BGP on RouterOS
>
>
>> Tom,
>>
>> I agree that Linux works very well as a router, but it still doesn't
>> compare to a dedicated hardware platform (like Cisco) that was built
>> from the ground up to do nothing but routing. We purchased a used Cisco
>> 12008 router about 1.5 years ago off ebay. They are very, very cheap...
>> the only downside is they are BIG and require 240VAC. But it's way cool
>> to pull the CPU card while the router is moving 500Mbps of traffic and
>> have it not even miss a single ping (due to the redundant CPU card).
>> Same goes for the route fabric card. ;)
>>
>> We use Mikrotik for our inside "core" router and this big Cisco for our
>> border router to our BGP upstreams. I have slept very well for the last
>> 1.5 years knowing everything in the box is fully redundant (CPU, route,
>> power, etc.). :)
>>
>> Travis
>> Microserv
>>
>>
>> On 11/2/2010 9:04 PM, Tom DeReggi wrote:
>>> Note: Quagga has been very reliable for quite some time now. Imagestream
>>> and
>>> Vyatta both use Quagga. Both are great choices for BGP routers.
>>>
>>> I personally use Mandrake (Mandriva) Linux with a slew of custom
>>> modifications that we have made, loaded on SuperMicro, and then use
>>> latest
>>> Quagga.
>>> That has worked well for us, the last 5 years. (although, I dont
>>> recommend
>>> that to someone, until they are vastly familiar with their distro of
>>> Linux.
>>> Last thing you want to do is use your BGP router for a Guinee Pig Science
>>> project, rebooting it all the time to test script changes.) But once you
>>> are
>>> comfortable with your Distro, it works well.
>>>
>>> There are a million arguements "for" and "against" Cisco versus Linux, to
>>> be
>>> used for the ISPs' average NOC/POP router/switch. I dont dispute any of
>>> the
>>> arguements. But one area where I believe Linux stands tall, is as a CORE
>>> BGP
>>> router. A core BGP router can be one of the more simplistic configured
>>> routers because it only really needs to perform one function, BGP routing
>>> to
>>> its connected peers.  For BGP there are two critical needs Fast
>>> processors and Lots of RAM. In todays world there is no excuse to not
>>> have
>>> both of those.  The problem with Cisco is that it lacks both, unless you
>>> pay
>>> big bucks. Linux on the other hand has an abundance of both, when
>>> combined
>>> with PC-Like hardware.
>>>
>>>I laugh at my competitors, when they say, "oh no, BGP reset, had to
>>> reload
>>> BGP tables, now there is latency for like 3 minutes or compromised
>>> routing
>>> for that period" or "got a route problem, the small prefixes aren't in my
>>> tables". . On Linux, if you want to restart BGP, well thats like 1 second
>>> to
>>> reload tables. And no need to drop any routes, unless you want to. You
>>> could
>>> have Full routes with like 30 peers from a single router, if you wanted
>>> to.
>>> You can load up Linux with like 32 NICs (qty8 4port GIG NICs) in a 2U
>>> case,
>>> if you want to, and dont even need a Switch. (Although new will cost you
>>> about $430 per 4port PCI-E Gig NIC).
>>>
>>> Tom DeReggi
>>> RapidDSL&   Wireless, Inc
>>> IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband
>>>
>>>
>>> - Original Message -
>>> From: "Kristian Hoffmann"
>>> To: "WISPA General List"
>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2010 8:37 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Full BGP on RouterOS
>>>
>>>
 On Tue, 2010-11-02 at 18:52 -0500, Scott Lambert wrote:

> I still need to try a Vyatta system.
 I loathe the idea of managing a *nix distro on a router (which is why we
 use RouterOS now).  Apparently I've had too much Tik-aid, because I had
 completely forgotten about Vyatta and similar options.

 I have a SuperMicro 5015A-H (Atom 330 dual-core) coming in tomorrow.
 I'm going to try RouterOS and Vyatta and see how BGP responds on each
 with a single feed.  If anyone else has an x86-based distro they'd like
 to see performance on, let me know.

 And thanks for all the responses.  The information has been very
 helpful.  Unfortunately, the conclusion I came to is "I have no idea
 what I'm going to do."  Cisco = $$$ and MikroTik = coin flip.  Hopefully
 Vyatta lands somewhere in the middle.

 Thanks,

 -Kristian



 --

Re: [WISPA] Change AP

[~NGL~]

What do I look for a GZ-901 or a GZ-902, I am confused.
NGL

--
From: "Chris Gotstein" 
Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2010 5:21 PM
To: "WISPA General List" 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Change AP

> The GZ902 is the expensive part, finding them is even more fun.
>
> On 11/3/2010 7:19 PM, Josh Luthman wrote:
>> I'm sure you can get something under $400, maybe closer to $300.  Not
>> cheap, but that's another $100 in the pocket.
>>
>> Not familiar with 900 MT/Tranzeo hardware.  If you can crack open the
>> Tranzeo box and put in an RB in place of their mobo you'd be set.
>>
>> Josh Luthman
>> Office: 937-552-2340
>> Direct: 937-552-2343
>> 1100 Wayne St
>> Suite 1337
>> Troy, OH 45373
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Nov 3, 2010 at 8:16 PM, Chris Gotstein > > wrote:
>>
>> I use a Mikrotik RB411AH board with a GZ902 radio card.  Cost for the
>> whole thing with outdoor case and parts came in around $400.
>>
>> On 11/3/2010 7:14 PM, ~NGL~ wrote:
>>  > I know nothing regarding MT RB or Gz901. When you set these up
>> did you use
>>  > any Tranzeo firmware. I have reboot my TR-902 AP's a couple times
>> a day, its
>>  > getting to be a pain.
>>  > What is the cost of these?
>>  > NGL
>>  >
>>  > --
>>  > From: "Chris Gotstein"> >
>>  > Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2010 4:59 PM
>>  > To: "WISPA General List"> >
>>  > Subject: Re: [WISPA] Change AP
>>  >
>>  >> You can run a MT RB with a GZ901 radio card.  Matt Larson got it
>> working
>>  >> and i'm using it currently with great results.  Here are the 
>> details
>>  >> from Matt:
>>  >>
>>  >> Verified on my bench this morning, I was able to get a Tranzeo
>>  >> SL9-8 to
>>  >> associate with an RB493AH with a GZ901 card on 5mhz channels.
>>  >>
>>  >> The trickiest part turned out to be finding the correct channel
>>  >> settings.
>>  >>
>>  >> I had to set the country mode to Australia in order to get access
>>  >> to the
>>  >> 923 channel. Once that was done, all four of the Tranzeo channels
>>  >> worked flawlessly. Here is the channel map:
>>  >>
>>  >> 2452 = 908
>>  >> 2457 = 913
>>  >> 2462 = 918
>>  >> 2467 = 923
>>  >>
>>  >> On 11/3/2010 6:23 PM, ~NGL~ wrote:
>>  >>> Which model?
>>  >>>
>>  >>>  *From:* Jerry Richardson> >
>>  >>>  *Sent:* Wednesday, November 03, 2010 4:19 PM
>>  >>>  *To:* WISPA General List> >
>>  >>>  *Subject:* Re: [WISPA] Change AP
>>  >>>
>>  >>>  Ubiquity?
>>  >>>
>>  >>>  Jerry Richardson
>>  >>>  Sent Mobile
>>  >>>
>>  >>>  On Nov 3, 2010, at 4:16 PM, "Ryan
>> Spott"mailto:rsp...@irongoat.net>
>>  >>> >> 
>> wrote:
>>  >>>
>>    You can put 'the guts' of a TR-902 into a mikrotik.
>>  
>>    ryan
>>  
>>  
>>  
>>    On Wed, Nov 3, 2010 at 2:50 PM, ~NGL~
>>   <>n...@ngl.net
>> >> 
>> wrote:
>>  
>>    Is there anyway to change from a TR-902 AP to
>> something else,
>>    and use the existing TR-902 Clients?
>>    Thanx
>>    NGL
>>     If you can read this Thank A Teacher.
>>    And if it's in English Thank A Soldier!
>>  
>>  
>>  
>>  
>>  
>>   
>> 
>>    WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>>   http://signup.wispa.org/
>>  
>>   
>> 
>>  
>>    WISPA Wireless List:
>>   > >wireless@wispa.org
>> 
>>   >
>>  
>>    Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
>>  
>>  
>> 
>> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>>  
>>    Archives:
>>  
>>  
>> 
>> http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>>  
>>  
>>   
>>  >>>
>>  >>>
>>   
>> 
>>  >>>
>>  >>

Re: [WISPA] Full BGP on RouterOS

[can...@believewireless.net]

I think one of the main differences is BGP failover.  With one box,
your BGP session never drops.  With two distinct servers, the session
will drop and the second router will start it up.  Then, when the
primary comes back online, the session will drop again and restart.



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Re: [WISPA] Full BGP on RouterOS

[Travis Johnson]

Having two routers talking to each other is not the same as a single 
router with redundant parts. I can pull the CPU card from my Cisco and 
the box never misses a single packet because the 2nd CPU card is in the 
same box. Same with the route processor cards. Same with the power supplies.


If you have two boxes doing VRRP, and BGP, if the power supply goes out 
of a box, how long before the 2nd box could fully take over? 30 seconds? 
60 seconds? :(


Travis
Microserv


On 11/3/2010 6:26 PM, Scott Reed wrote:
OK, elaborate on how 2 distinct identical boxes is not hardware 
redundancy.  I think by the definition of redundancy, it is 100%. 
Webster: characterized by similarity or repetition particularly /redundant/ brick buildings


On 11/3/2010 6:45 PM, Blake Covarrubias wrote:

Jeff,

VXRs and down. Not GSR's and up. I wasn't entirely clear in my last message. 
Like Travis I was also commenting about the Cisco GSR / 12000 platform. I'm 
well aware of the performance of a Linux box compared to a VXR. We run a few 
VXR routers in our network in addition to GSR's, BSD routers, and MikroTik.

What you're describing really isn't true hardware redundancy. I'm also well 
aware of BGP and its use in a multi-homed environment. We have two separate 
GSRs acting as our edge routers. One in California, one in Arizona. Both 
routers have multiple eBGP peers, and run iBGP between them. They're connected 
by a series of licensed microwave radios with about 155mbps of bandwidth 
between the two. We'll be supplementing that link with a dedicated GigE fiber 
link in the coming months.

I'm not sure what you're getting at regarding bridging between two connections. 
There's no requirement to run a bridged network in order to operate iBGP.

I have no doubt Quagga works well in some BGP applications. We don't use it because 
we have requirements for performance&  uptime which a Linux/BSD box cannot 
currently meet. We provide voice (TDM) and data services for companies in various 
industries such as mining, manufacturing, aerospace, defense, energy, cellular, and 
even other ISPs. We literally cannot afford to wrestle with the issues others on 
this list experience. If its not reliable we replace it. We don't have a problem 
paying for reliability.

--
Blake Covarrubias

On Nov 3, 2010, at 1:16 PM, Jeff Broadwick - Lists wrote:


Hi Blake,

I’m not sure what sort of speeds you think Linux limits out at, but I believe 
you might be surprised at how much throughput you can get.  We generally blow 
the doors off of the VXRs and down.

There are two different ways of getting hardware redundancy.  One is with a 
massively expensive single box, like the Cisco.  The other is to set up 
redundant hardware…which is particularly good in a BGP application.  You can 
have a relatively inexpensive router on each circuit, set up iBGP and VRRP 
between the boxes, and BGP between the peers.  That way, if you lose anything, 
all the in and outbound traffic fails to the other unit(s).  This also allows 
for geographic separation of the routers.  If you can bridge between the 
routers, you can have them in completely different locations…thus keeping your 
network running if something really nasty happens.

I can’t speak for the other companies, but ImageStream has been handling BGP 
for around 10 years.  We use Quagga currently and we’ve found it to be very 
stable, as our customers on-list have attested.  It’s one of our top 
applications.

Regards,

Jeff
ImageStream
800-813-5123 x106

From:wireless-boun...@wispa.org  [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf 
Of Blake Covarrubias
Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2010 11:31 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Full BGP on RouterOS

Hardware redundancy, wire speed packet forwarding, support for more Interface 
types, and more widely tested&  stable software.

I'll use a MikroTik, Linux, or BSD box as an aggregation router any day; terminate 
some VLANs, act as an MPLS CE, perform QoS marking, and participate in an OSPF 
area. Probably nothing more. The level of hardware redundancy&  wire-speed 
forwarding isn't there for my needs.

If you're just knocking IOS, I realize it isn't the wave of the future. Cisco does 
too&  has developed IOS XR.

Linux, MikroTik, and I'm sure Vyatta&  ImageStream are great platforms. They 
compete well with Cisco in some areas...others not so much. Use what's appropriate.

--
Blake Covarrubias

On Nov 3, 2010, at 8:04, "Jeff Broadwick - Lists"  wrote:


I’m curious Travis…not looking for an argument.

What specifically do you think is superior in IOS (Unix-based originally) to a 
hardened, purpose-built Linux distro (us, Mikrotik, Vyatta, whatever)?

Regards,

Jeff
ImageStream
800-813-5123 x106

From:wireless-boun...@wispa.org  [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf 
Of Travis Johnson
Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2010 11:37 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Full BGP on RouterOS

Tom,

I agree that Linux works very well as a router, bu

Re: [WISPA] Full BGP on RouterOS

[Travis Johnson]

And, many of us in the middle of nowhere are still getting upstream 
links via telco circuits (such as OC3 and OC12). How do you terminate an 
OC12 into two separate boxes to run VRRP? You don't.


Travis
Microserv


On 11/3/2010 6:26 PM, Scott Reed wrote:
OK, elaborate on how 2 distinct identical boxes is not hardware 
redundancy.  I think by the definition of redundancy, it is 100%. 
Webster: characterized by similarity or repetition particularly /redundant/ brick buildings


On 11/3/2010 6:45 PM, Blake Covarrubias wrote:

Jeff,

VXRs and down. Not GSR's and up. I wasn't entirely clear in my last message. 
Like Travis I was also commenting about the Cisco GSR / 12000 platform. I'm 
well aware of the performance of a Linux box compared to a VXR. We run a few 
VXR routers in our network in addition to GSR's, BSD routers, and MikroTik.

What you're describing really isn't true hardware redundancy. I'm also well 
aware of BGP and its use in a multi-homed environment. We have two separate 
GSRs acting as our edge routers. One in California, one in Arizona. Both 
routers have multiple eBGP peers, and run iBGP between them. They're connected 
by a series of licensed microwave radios with about 155mbps of bandwidth 
between the two. We'll be supplementing that link with a dedicated GigE fiber 
link in the coming months.

I'm not sure what you're getting at regarding bridging between two connections. 
There's no requirement to run a bridged network in order to operate iBGP.

I have no doubt Quagga works well in some BGP applications. We don't use it because 
we have requirements for performance&  uptime which a Linux/BSD box cannot 
currently meet. We provide voice (TDM) and data services for companies in various 
industries such as mining, manufacturing, aerospace, defense, energy, cellular, and 
even other ISPs. We literally cannot afford to wrestle with the issues others on 
this list experience. If its not reliable we replace it. We don't have a problem 
paying for reliability.

--
Blake Covarrubias

On Nov 3, 2010, at 1:16 PM, Jeff Broadwick - Lists wrote:


Hi Blake,

I’m not sure what sort of speeds you think Linux limits out at, but I believe 
you might be surprised at how much throughput you can get.  We generally blow 
the doors off of the VXRs and down.

There are two different ways of getting hardware redundancy.  One is with a 
massively expensive single box, like the Cisco.  The other is to set up 
redundant hardware…which is particularly good in a BGP application.  You can 
have a relatively inexpensive router on each circuit, set up iBGP and VRRP 
between the boxes, and BGP between the peers.  That way, if you lose anything, 
all the in and outbound traffic fails to the other unit(s).  This also allows 
for geographic separation of the routers.  If you can bridge between the 
routers, you can have them in completely different locations…thus keeping your 
network running if something really nasty happens.

I can’t speak for the other companies, but ImageStream has been handling BGP 
for around 10 years.  We use Quagga currently and we’ve found it to be very 
stable, as our customers on-list have attested.  It’s one of our top 
applications.

Regards,

Jeff
ImageStream
800-813-5123 x106

From:wireless-boun...@wispa.org  [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf 
Of Blake Covarrubias
Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2010 11:31 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Full BGP on RouterOS

Hardware redundancy, wire speed packet forwarding, support for more Interface 
types, and more widely tested&  stable software.

I'll use a MikroTik, Linux, or BSD box as an aggregation router any day; terminate 
some VLANs, act as an MPLS CE, perform QoS marking, and participate in an OSPF 
area. Probably nothing more. The level of hardware redundancy&  wire-speed 
forwarding isn't there for my needs.

If you're just knocking IOS, I realize it isn't the wave of the future. Cisco does 
too&  has developed IOS XR.

Linux, MikroTik, and I'm sure Vyatta&  ImageStream are great platforms. They 
compete well with Cisco in some areas...others not so much. Use what's appropriate.

--
Blake Covarrubias

On Nov 3, 2010, at 8:04, "Jeff Broadwick - Lists"  wrote:


I’m curious Travis…not looking for an argument.

What specifically do you think is superior in IOS (Unix-based originally) to a 
hardened, purpose-built Linux distro (us, Mikrotik, Vyatta, whatever)?

Regards,

Jeff
ImageStream
800-813-5123 x106

From:wireless-boun...@wispa.org  [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf 
Of Travis Johnson
Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2010 11:37 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Full BGP on RouterOS

Tom,

I agree that Linux works very well as a router, but it still doesn't
compare to a dedicated hardware platform (like Cisco) that was built
from the ground up to do nothing but routing. We purchased a used Cisco
12008 router about 1.5 years ago off ebay. They are very, very cheap...
the only downside is they ar

[WISPA] Dish Tower Mounting

[Matt]

Does anyone have some pictures of mounting a 4 - 6 foot dish to a
largish ~4 foot face tower?  Just curious what kind of brackets are
typically used.



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Re: [WISPA] Full BGP on RouterOS

[Tom DeReggi]

You also have the problem where you cant have 1 ethernet cable plugged into 
two routers at the same time, unless you add switches in the front, which 
then adds complexity to setup and another point of failure. There is no 
question that there is value to a hardware redundant single server, in a 
mission ciritical environment. The question is, can one afford it, and is it 
cost justified. MANY CAN cost justify it.  I cant.  Its also possible for 
redundant hardware to fail, so there is also value to having a fail over 
second router.


Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: "can...@believewireless.net" 
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2010 9:10 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Full BGP on RouterOS


>I think one of the main differences is BGP failover.  With one box,
> your BGP session never drops.  With two distinct servers, the session
> will drop and the second router will start it up.  Then, when the
> primary comes back online, the session will drop again and restart.
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> 
>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ 




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Re: [WISPA] Full BGP on RouterOS

[Matt]

> On Wed, Nov 3, 2010 at 1:04 AM, Tom DeReggi  wrote:
>> Note: Quagga has been very reliable for quite some time now. Imagestream and
>> Vyatta both use Quagga. Both are great choices for BGP routers.
>
> Although it's a different scenario, the IXP folks beg to differ about
> Quagga reliability. When the number of peers is high, it flops
> miserably. Some of them moved to OpenBGPd, some of them to BIRD
> (http://bird.network.cz). None of them moved to XORP, Mikrotik's
> choice (and Vyatta's prior to switching to Quagga).

Pretty sure Mikrotik is using none of those and instead rolled there
own in there newer router OS releases.

> If one have time, he or she should test all of the above... with
> limited time, I would favor testing BIRD first.
>



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Re: [WISPA] Full BGP on RouterOS

[Butch Evans]

On Wed, 2010-11-03 at 19:53 -0600, Travis Johnson wrote:
> Having two routers talking to each other is not the same as a single
> router with redundant parts. I can pull the CPU card from my Cisco and
> the box never misses a single packet because the 2nd CPU card is in
> the same box. Same with the route processor cards. Same with the power
> supplies.
> 
> If you have two boxes doing VRRP, and BGP, if the power supply goes
> out of a box, how long before the 2nd box could fully take over? 30
> seconds? 60 seconds? :(

What if the backplane is the problem?

-- 

* Butch Evans   * Professional Network Consultation*
* http://www.butchevans.com/* Network Engineering  *
* http://store.wispgear.net/* Wired or Wireless Networks   *
* http://blog.butchevans.com/   * ImageStream, Mikrotik and MORE!  *





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Re: [WISPA] Full BGP on RouterOS

[Butch Evans]

On Wed, 2010-11-03 at 19:54 -0600, Travis Johnson wrote:
> And, many of us in the middle of nowhere are still getting upstream
> links via telco circuits (such as OC3 and OC12). How do you terminate
> an OC12 into two separate boxes to run VRRP? You don't.

THIS is a more sensible argument.  The other one (regarding what
is/isn't redundant) is not.  Both are redundant, but this method is
redundant AND does the added feature of being connected to a
(non-redundant) OC12 with a (non-redundant) OC12 interface.

-- 

* Butch Evans   * Professional Network Consultation*
* http://www.butchevans.com/* Network Engineering  *
* http://store.wispgear.net/* Wired or Wireless Networks   *
* http://blog.butchevans.com/   * ImageStream, Mikrotik and MORE!  *





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Re: [WISPA] Full BGP on RouterOS

[Josh Luthman]

Powercode's MAXX does that...or so they say.  I believe ImageStream says
they can do this too.

Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373


On Wed, Nov 3, 2010 at 9:53 PM, Travis Johnson  wrote:

>  Having two routers talking to each other is not the same as a single
> router with redundant parts. I can pull the CPU card from my Cisco and the
> box never misses a single packet because the 2nd CPU card is in the same
> box. Same with the route processor cards. Same with the power supplies.
>
> If you have two boxes doing VRRP, and BGP, if the power supply goes out of
> a box, how long before the 2nd box could fully take over? 30 seconds? 60
> seconds? :(
>
> Travis
> Microserv
>
>
>
> On 11/3/2010 6:26 PM, Scott Reed wrote:
>
> OK, elaborate on how 2 distinct identical boxes is not hardware
> redundancy.  I think by the definition of redundancy, it is 100%. Webster: 
> characterized
> by similarity or repetition  buildings
>
> On 11/3/2010 6:45 PM, Blake Covarrubias wrote:
>
> Jeff,
>
> VXRs and down. Not GSR's and up. I wasn't entirely clear in my last message. 
> Like Travis I was also commenting about the Cisco GSR / 12000 platform. I'm 
> well aware of the performance of a Linux box compared to a VXR. We run a few 
> VXR routers in our network in addition to GSR's, BSD routers, and MikroTik.
>
> What you're describing really isn't true hardware redundancy. I'm also well 
> aware of BGP and its use in a multi-homed environment. We have two separate 
> GSRs acting as our edge routers. One in California, one in Arizona. Both 
> routers have multiple eBGP peers, and run iBGP between them. They're 
> connected by a series of licensed microwave radios with about 155mbps of 
> bandwidth between the two. We'll be supplementing that link with a dedicated 
> GigE fiber link in the coming months.
>
> I'm not sure what you're getting at regarding bridging between two 
> connections. There's no requirement to run a bridged network in order to 
> operate iBGP.
>
> I have no doubt Quagga works well in some BGP applications. We don't use it 
> because we have requirements for performance & uptime which a Linux/BSD box 
> cannot currently meet. We provide voice (TDM) and data services for companies 
> in various industries such as mining, manufacturing, aerospace, defense, 
> energy, cellular, and even other ISPs. We literally cannot afford to wrestle 
> with the issues others on this list experience. If its not reliable we 
> replace it. We don't have a problem paying for reliability.
>
> --
> Blake Covarrubias
>
> On Nov 3, 2010, at 1:16 PM, Jeff Broadwick - Lists wrote:
>
>
>  Hi Blake,
>
> I’m not sure what sort of speeds you think Linux limits out at, but I believe 
> you might be surprised at how much throughput you can get.  We generally blow 
> the doors off of the VXRs and down.
>
> There are two different ways of getting hardware redundancy.  One is with a 
> massively expensive single box, like the Cisco.  The other is to set up 
> redundant hardware…which is particularly good in a BGP application.  You can 
> have a relatively inexpensive router on each circuit, set up iBGP and VRRP 
> between the boxes, and BGP between the peers.  That way, if you lose 
> anything, all the in and outbound traffic fails to the other unit(s).  This 
> also allows for geographic separation of the routers.  If you can bridge 
> between the routers, you can have them in completely different locations…thus 
> keeping your network running if something really nasty happens.
>
> I can’t speak for the other companies, but ImageStream has been handling BGP 
> for around 10 years.  We use Quagga currently and we’ve found it to be very 
> stable, as our customers on-list have attested.  It’s one of our top 
> applications.
>
> Regards,
>
> Jeff
> ImageStream
> 800-813-5123 x106
>
> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org 
> ] On Behalf Of Blake Covarrubias
> Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2010 11:31 AM
> To: WISPA General List
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Full BGP on RouterOS
>
> Hardware redundancy, wire speed packet forwarding, support for more Interface 
> types, and more widely tested & stable software.
>
> I'll use a MikroTik, Linux, or BSD box as an aggregation router any day; 
> terminate some VLANs, act as an MPLS CE, perform QoS marking, and participate 
> in an OSPF area. Probably nothing more. The level of hardware redundancy & 
> wire-speed forwarding isn't there for my needs.
>
> If you're just knocking IOS, I realize it isn't the wave of the future. Cisco 
> does too & has developed IOS XR.
>
> Linux, MikroTik, and I'm sure Vyatta & ImageStream are great platforms. They 
> compete well with Cisco in some areas...others not so much. Use what's 
> appropriate.
>
> --
> Blake Covarrubias
>
> On Nov 3, 2010, at 8:04, "Jeff Broadwick - Lists"  
>  wrote:
>
>
>  I’m curious Travis…not looking for an argument.
>
> What specifically do you think is superior 

Re: [WISPA] Full BGP on RouterOS

[Rubens Kuhl]

>> Although it's a different scenario, the IXP folks beg to differ about
>> Quagga reliability. When the number of peers is high, it flops
>> miserably. Some of them moved to OpenBGPd, some of them to BIRD
>> (http://bird.network.cz). None of them moved to XORP, Mikrotik's
>> choice (and Vyatta's prior to switching to Quagga).
>
> Pretty sure Mikrotik is using none of those and instead rolled there
> own in there newer router OS releases.

- Mikrotik ROS 2.9x was Quagga-based (you could do a telnet 127.0.0.1
2601, for instance) ;
- Mikrotik ROS 3.15 was XORP-based according to Mikrotik; they told
that to a customer that was facing issues with that version ;
- On the Mikrotik wiki you can find info that PIM-SM Multicast code is
from XORP, although they don't say on the wiki that BGP or OSPF were
XORP's ;
- The minutes long CPU-hog was a bug described at Vyatta forums while
they were using XORP, and suddenly the same bug appears on a multitude
of Mikrotik ROS versions.

The proof is left as an exercise for the reader.


Has been XORP part of ROS at same point ? Pretty sure it was.
Is still XORP-based on 4.x, 5.0rc ? I don't know. Educated guess: XORP
up to 4.something, something else on 4.later or 5.0rc.


Rubens



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Re: [WISPA] Change AP

[Chris Gotstein]

Sorry, GZ901 card.  Typo.

On 11/3/2010 8:09 PM, ~NGL~ wrote:
> What do I look for a GZ-901 or a GZ-902, I am confused.
> NGL
>
> --
> From: "Chris Gotstein"
> Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2010 5:21 PM
> To: "WISPA General List"
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Change AP
>
>> The GZ902 is the expensive part, finding them is even more fun.
>>
>> On 11/3/2010 7:19 PM, Josh Luthman wrote:
>>> I'm sure you can get something under $400, maybe closer to $300.  Not
>>> cheap, but that's another $100 in the pocket.
>>>
>>> Not familiar with 900 MT/Tranzeo hardware.  If you can crack open the
>>> Tranzeo box and put in an RB in place of their mobo you'd be set.
>>>
>>> Josh Luthman
>>> Office: 937-552-2340
>>> Direct: 937-552-2343
>>> 1100 Wayne St
>>> Suite 1337
>>> Troy, OH 45373
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Nov 3, 2010 at 8:16 PM, Chris Gotstein>> >  wrote:
>>>
>>>  I use a Mikrotik RB411AH board with a GZ902 radio card.  Cost for the
>>>  whole thing with outdoor case and parts came in around $400.
>>>
>>>  On 11/3/2010 7:14 PM, ~NGL~ wrote:
>>>   >  I know nothing regarding MT RB or Gz901. When you set these up
>>>  did you use
>>>   >  any Tranzeo firmware. I have reboot my TR-902 AP's a couple times
>>>  a day, its
>>>   >  getting to be a pain.
>>>   >  What is the cost of these?
>>>   >  NGL
>>>   >
>>>   >  --
>>>   >  From: "Chris Gotstein">> >
>>>   >  Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2010 4:59 PM
>>>   >  To: "WISPA General List">>  >
>>>   >  Subject: Re: [WISPA] Change AP
>>>   >
>>>   >>  You can run a MT RB with a GZ901 radio card.  Matt Larson got it
>>>  working
>>>   >>  and i'm using it currently with great results.  Here are the
>>> details
>>>   >>  from Matt:
>>>   >>
>>>   >>  Verified on my bench this morning, I was able to get a Tranzeo
>>>   >>  SL9-8 to
>>>   >>  associate with an RB493AH with a GZ901 card on 5mhz channels.
>>>   >>
>>>   >>  The trickiest part turned out to be finding the correct channel
>>>   >>  settings.
>>>   >>
>>>   >>  I had to set the country mode to Australia in order to get access
>>>   >>  to the
>>>   >>  923 channel. Once that was done, all four of the Tranzeo channels
>>>   >>  worked flawlessly. Here is the channel map:
>>>   >>
>>>   >>  2452 = 908
>>>   >>  2457 = 913
>>>   >>  2462 = 918
>>>   >>  2467 = 923
>>>   >>
>>>   >>  On 11/3/2010 6:23 PM, ~NGL~ wrote:
>>>   >>>  Which model?
>>>   >>>
>>>   >>>   *From:* Jerry Richardson>>  >
>>>   >>>   *Sent:* Wednesday, November 03, 2010 4:19 PM
>>>   >>>   *To:* WISPA General List>>  >
>>>   >>>   *Subject:* Re: [WISPA] Change AP
>>>   >>>
>>>   >>>   Ubiquity?
>>>   >>>
>>>   >>>   Jerry Richardson
>>>   >>>   Sent Mobile
>>>   >>>
>>>   >>>   On Nov 3, 2010, at 4:16 PM, "Ryan
>>>  Spott"mailto:rsp...@irongoat.net>
>>>   >>>  >>
>>> wrote:
>>>   >>>
>>>      You can put 'the guts' of a TR-902 into a mikrotik.
>>>   
>>>      ryan
>>>   
>>>   
>>>   
>>>      On Wed, Nov 3, 2010 at 2:50 PM, ~NGL~
>>>     <>n...@ngl.net
>>>  >>
>>> wrote:
>>>   
>>>      Is there anyway to change from a TR-902 AP to
>>>  something else,
>>>      and use the existing TR-902 Clients?
>>>      Thanx
>>>      NGL
>>>    If you can read this Thank A Teacher.
>>>      And if it's in English Thank A Soldier!
>>>   
>>>   
>>>   
>>>   
>>>   
>>>
>>> 
>>>      WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>>>     http://signup.wispa.org/
>>>   
>>>
>>> 
>>>   
>>>      WISPA Wireless List:
>>>     >>  >wireless@wispa.org
>>>  
>>>     >
>>>   
>>>      Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
>>>   
>>>   
>>>
>>> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wir

Re: [WISPA] Full BGP on RouterOS

[Tom DeReggi]

Hot Swap is hard to fully accomplish with PCs. Everyone needs a plan for how 
maintenance will occur with minimal downtime.
For example, its prettty easy to buy a nice Rack case with redundant PS, but 
how do you replace an overheating CPU? 
A standard Rack PC does not have HotSwap CPUs, and it is inevitable that sooner 
or later the Heatsink fan will fail or heat sink grease will harden. 
And how does one troubleshoot that, on a live router? That is the negative of a 
Linux self made Rack PC. But again, thats the reason for a hot spare router to 
put in place, and a reason for scheduled maintenance to occur every couple 
years after hours, when a 60 second outage is acceptable. As ISPs start to 
become gloabal ISPs opperating in multiple time zones, it becomes tougher, to 
find good times to do maintenance, but I dont think most WISPs are at that 
stage where it matters that much. When it does matter that much, I'd argue the 
WISP should have both hardware redundancy and router redundancy.

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


  - Original Message - 
  From: Josh Luthman 
  To: WISPA General List 
  Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2010 11:26 PM
  Subject: Re: [WISPA] Full BGP on RouterOS


  Powercode's MAXX does that...or so they say.  I believe ImageStream says they 
can do this too.

  Josh Luthman
  Office: 937-552-2340
  Direct: 937-552-2343
  1100 Wayne St
  Suite 1337
  Troy, OH 45373



  On Wed, Nov 3, 2010 at 9:53 PM, Travis Johnson  wrote:

Having two routers talking to each other is not the same as a single router 
with redundant parts. I can pull the CPU card from my Cisco and the box never 
misses a single packet because the 2nd CPU card is in the same box. Same with 
the route processor cards. Same with the power supplies.

If you have two boxes doing VRRP, and BGP, if the power supply goes out of 
a box, how long before the 2nd box could fully take over? 30 seconds? 60 
seconds? :(

Travis
Microserv



On 11/3/2010 6:26 PM, Scott Reed wrote: 
  OK, elaborate on how 2 distinct identical boxes is not hardware 
redundancy.  I think by the definition of redundancy, it is 100%. Webster: 
characterized by similarity or repetition mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf 
Of Blake Covarrubias
Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2010 11:31 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Full BGP on RouterOS
 
Hardware redundancy, wire speed packet forwarding, support for more Interface 
types, and more widely tested & stable software.
 
I'll use a MikroTik, Linux, or BSD box as an aggregation router any day; 
terminate some VLANs, act as an MPLS CE, perform QoS marking, and participate 
in an OSPF area. Probably nothing more. The level of hardware redundancy & 
wire-speed forwarding isn't there for my needs.
 
If you're just knocking IOS, I realize it isn't the wave of the future. Cisco 
does too & has developed IOS XR.
 
Linux, MikroTik, and I'm sure Vyatta & ImageStream are great platforms. They 
compete well with Cisco in some areas...others not so much. Use what's 
appropriate.
 
--
Blake Covarrubias

On Nov 3, 2010, at 8:04, "Jeff Broadwick - Lists"  wrote:

I’m curious Travis…not looking for an argument.
 
What specifically do you think is superior in IOS (Unix-based originally) to a 
hardened, purpose-built Linux distro (us, Mikrotik, Vyatta, whatever)?
 
Regards,
 
Jeff
ImageStream
800-813-5123 x106
 
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf 
Of Travis Johnson
Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2010 11:37 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Full BGP on RouterOS
 
Tom,

I agree that Linux works very well as a router, but it still doesn't
compare to a dedicated hardware platform (like Cisco) that was built
from the ground up to do nothing but routing. We purchased a used Cisco
12008 router about 1.5 years ago off ebay. They are very, very cheap...
the only downside is they are BIG and require 240VAC. But it's way cool
to pull the CPU card while the router is moving 500Mbps of traffic and
have it not even miss a single ping (due to the redundant CPU card).
Same goes for the route fabric card. ;)

We use Mikrotik for our inside "core" router and this big Cisco for our
border router to our BGP upstreams. I have slept very well for the last
1.5 years knowing everything in the box is fully redundant (CPU, route,
power, etc.). :)

Travis
Microserv


On 11/2/2010 9:04 PM, Tom DeReggi wrote:
Note: Quagga has been very reliable for quite some time now. Imagestream and
Vyatta both use Quagga. Both are great choices for BGP routers.

I personally use Mandrake (Mandriva) Linux with a slew of custom
modifications that we have made, loaded on SuperMicro, and then use latest
Quagga.
That has worked well for us, the last 5 years. (although, I dont recommend
that to someone, until they are vastly familiar with their distro of Linux.
Last thing you want to do is use your BGP router for a Guinee Pig Scien

Re: [WISPA] Full BGP on RouterOS

[Travis Johnson]

Then you move the cards into the "spare" chassis you have sitting 3ft 
away in another rack and boot up and go... :)

However, I have NEVER heard of a Cisco 12000 series "backplane" failing. 
EVER. Can't say that for an X86 based anything... they fail all the 
time... cards, system boards, processors, memory, power supplies, etc.

Don't get me wrong here... we love Mikrotik running on our X86 
systems we currently have 20 or 30 of them running the heart of our 
network... including one directly behind our Cisco 12008 that does all 
of our routing and deactivation stuff... and handles 450Mbps x 200Mbps 
on a daily basis... :)

The point was, running RouterOS on a device taking multiple BGP feeds... 
which I would never do... Cisco still owns the BGP space... and my next 
choice would be Imagestream.

Travis
Microserv


On 11/3/2010 8:45 PM, Butch Evans wrote:
> On Wed, 2010-11-03 at 19:53 -0600, Travis Johnson wrote:
>> Having two routers talking to each other is not the same as a single
>> router with redundant parts. I can pull the CPU card from my Cisco and
>> the box never misses a single packet because the 2nd CPU card is in
>> the same box. Same with the route processor cards. Same with the power
>> supplies.
>>
>> If you have two boxes doing VRRP, and BGP, if the power supply goes
>> out of a box, how long before the 2nd box could fully take over? 30
>> seconds? 60 seconds? :(
> What if the backplane is the problem?
>



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Re: [WISPA] Full BGP on RouterOS

[Travis Johnson]

Agreed. Whenever we buy any "major" component for our network (big 
routers, licensed links, big switches, etc.) we always buy a "spare" to 
go with it (if we don't already have one).


Example... our main backbone switch is a Cisco 3550-12T. All of our 
traffic (currently 450Mbps x 200Mbps) goes through this switch so we can 
"mirror" some of the ports for filtering and traffic monitoring. When we 
first purchased the switch, we bought 2 of them. We mounted the 2nd one 
directly above the first in our rack, and configured it exactly the 
same. So, if that switch ever dies, we simply move a few cables and we 
are back up and going... and at the same time, if we ever need to 
upgrade firmware, we can do it on the 2nd one, test it, and then move it 
into production and upgrade the 1st one with about 5 seconds of 
total downtime while we move cables.


Always, always have spares of your critical equipment. :)

Travis
Microserv

On 11/3/2010 10:54 PM, Tom DeReggi wrote:
Hot Swap is hard to fully accomplish with PCs. Everyone needs a plan 
for how maintenance will occur with minimal downtime.
For example, its prettty easy to buy a nice Rack case with redundant 
PS, but how do you replace an overheating CPU?
A standard Rack PC does not have HotSwap CPUs, and it is inevitable 
that sooner or later the Heatsink fan will fail or heat sink grease 
will harden.
And how does one troubleshoot that, on a live router? That is the 
negative of a Linux self made Rack PC. But again, thats the reason for 
a hot spare router to put in place, and a reason for scheduled 
maintenance to occur every couple years after hours, when a 60 
second outage is acceptable. As ISPs start to become gloabal ISPs 
opperating in multiple time zones, it becomes tougher, to find good 
times to do maintenance, but I dont think most WISPs are at that stage 
where it matters that much. When it does matter that much, I'd argue 
the WISP should have both hardware redundancy and router redundancy.

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband

- Original Message -
*From:* Josh Luthman 
*To:* WISPA General List 
*Sent:* Wednesday, November 03, 2010 11:26 PM
*Subject:* Re: [WISPA] Full BGP on RouterOS

Powercode's MAXX does that...or so they say.  I believe
ImageStream says they can do this too.

Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373


On Wed, Nov 3, 2010 at 9:53 PM, Travis Johnson mailto:t...@ida.net>> wrote:

Having two routers talking to each other is not the same as a
single router with redundant parts. I can pull the CPU card
from my Cisco and the box never misses a single packet because
the 2nd CPU card is in the same box. Same with the route
processor cards. Same with the power supplies.

If you have two boxes doing VRRP, and BGP, if the power supply
goes out of a box, how long before the 2nd box could fully
take over? 30 seconds? 60 seconds? :(

Travis
Microserv



On 11/3/2010 6:26 PM, Scott Reed wrote:

OK, elaborate on how 2 distinct identical boxes is not
hardware redundancy.  I think by the definition of
redundancy, it is 100%. Webster: characterized by similarity
or repetition 
Jeff,

VXRs and down. Not GSR's and up. I wasn't entirely clear in my last 
message. Like Travis I was also commenting about the Cisco GSR / 12000 
platform. I'm well aware of the performance of a Linux box compared to a VXR. 
We run a few VXR routers in our network in addition to GSR's, BSD routers, and 
MikroTik.

What you're describing really isn't true hardware redundancy. I'm also 
well aware of BGP and its use in a multi-homed environment. We have two 
separate GSRs acting as our edge routers. One in California, one in Arizona. 
Both routers have multiple eBGP peers, and run iBGP between them. They're 
connected by a series of licensed microwave radios with about 155mbps of 
bandwidth between the two. We'll be supplementing that link with a dedicated 
GigE fiber link in the coming months.

I'm not sure what you're getting at regarding bridging between two 
connections. There's no requirement to run a bridged network in order to 
operate iBGP.

I have no doubt Quagga works well in some BGP applications. We don't use it 
because we have requirements for performance&  uptime which a Linux/BSD box 
cannot currently meet. We provide voice (TDM) and data services for companies in 
various industries such as mining, manufacturing, aerospace, defense, energy, 
cellular, and even other ISPs. We literally cannot afford to wrestle with the 
issues others on this list experience. If its not reliable we replace it. We don't 
have a problem paying for reliability.

--
Blake Covarrubias

  

Re: [WISPA] Full BGP on RouterOS

[Butch Evans]

On Wed, 2010-11-03 at 22:59 -0600, Travis Johnson wrote: 
> Then you move the cards into the "spare" chassis you have sitting 3ft 
> away in another rack and boot up and go... :)

My only point was that all that redundancy, which I think is a GOOD
thing, is only redundant to a point.  At some point in the system, there
is a point of failure.

> However, I have NEVER heard of a Cisco 12000 series "backplane" failing. 
> EVER.

Nor have I.  That wasn't really the point I was making anyway.  The
point, as stated above, is that there IS a point of failure in the
system, even if it is a rare failure.  Don't get me wrong, the router
you have sounds like a great bargain.  I am not knocking that at all. 

> Can't say that for an X86 based anything... they fail all the 
> time... cards, system boards, processors, memory, power supplies, etc.

I'd say that this is a bit of an exaggeration.  

> The point was, running RouterOS on a device taking multiple BGP feeds... 
> which I would never do... Cisco still owns the BGP space... and my next 
> choice would be Imagestream.

In general, I don't recommend ROS for BGP when you need anything beyond
basic functionality.  The only difference between your choice and mine
is which one we put as "first" choice, which, for me, would be
ImageStream.  Except that Cisco wouldn't likely be my second choice,
either...I'd be more likely to go with Juniper and then Cisco.

-- 

* Butch Evans   * Professional Network Consultation*
* http://www.butchevans.com/* Network Engineering  *
* http://store.wispgear.net/* Wired or Wireless Networks   *
* http://blog.butchevans.com/   * ImageStream, Mikrotik and MORE!  *





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