Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information

[Mike Hammett]

ah, okay.


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com



--
From: "Randy Cosby" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, December 01, 2008 12:00 PM
To: "WISPA General List" 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information

> Yeah, I know.   It was just a happier time when they didn't exist is
> what I was trying to say :)
>
>
> Randy
>
>
> Mike Hammett wrote:
>> Qwest was the merger of US West and Qwest.
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qwest
>>
>>
>> -
>> Mike Hammett
>> Intelligent Computing Solutions
>> http://www.ics-il.com
>>
>>
>>
>> ------
>> From: "Randy Cosby" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Sent: Monday, December 01, 2008 10:05 AM
>> To: "WISPA General List" 
>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
>>
>>
>>> Heh... We started with Westnet here too!  Those were the days.  Then
>>> MCI, then Sprint... Never heard of Qwest in those days.
>>>
>>> Randy
>>>
>>>
>>> Travis Johnson wrote:
>>>
>>>> Wow starting with a full T1 we started with a 256k fractional 
>>>> T1
>>>> from the local university that was part of WestNet. ;)
>>>>
>>>> Travis
>>>> Microserv
>>>>
>>>> Chuck McCown wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Yeah, I know.  But that is getting cheaper all the time.  If you get 
>>>>> the
>>>>> $5 deal, perhaps there is an ATM cloud in the city you can use to
>>>>> wholesale in the city to defray part of the cost and get you as far 
>>>>> out
>>>>> of town as possible.  If you give it away at cost or just a bit above
>>>>> just to help pay the bill you should have plenty of takers in town.
>>>>>
>>>>> Take delivery at a friendly wholesale customer on the edge of the 
>>>>> cloud
>>>>> and then start the dragonwave etc backhaul chain to whereever your 
>>>>> turf
>>>>> is.  Just have to keep  banging your head against the rock, eventually
>>>>> the rock gives up.  We started with 1 T1 from Qwest like many others.
>>>>>   - Original Message - 
>>>>>   From: Travis Johnson
>>>>>   To: WISPA General List
>>>>>   Sent: Monday, December 01, 2008 7:55 AM
>>>>>   Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>   Chuck the issue with most people isn't the cost per meg at the
>>>>> port I've found $5/meg at the port the issue is getting it 
>>>>> from
>>>>> the port to your NOC. :(
>>>>>
>>>>>   Travis
>>>>>   Microserv
>>>>>
>>>>>   Chuck McCown - 3 wrote:
>>>>> There deals clear down to $7/meg.
>>>>> Ask vendors for a 2 year contract, GigE 100 Mbps burstable.
>>>>>
>>>>> - Original Message - 
>>>>> From: "John Thomas" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>>>> To: "WISPA General List" 
>>>>> Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2008 10:07 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>   http://www.nefiber.com/
>>>>>
>>>>> Recently, I learned that American Fiber Systems has "InterCity Fiber
>>>>> Ring" that connects Las Vegas, Reno/Carson City, Boise and Salt Lake 
>>>>> on
>>>>> a fully redundant OC-192 capacity backbone.
>>>>> They aren't cheap on the low end at $2000/month for 5 meg burstable to
>>>>> 10, but I image the price per meg drops quickly as the bandwidth goes
>>>>> up.
>>>>> These guys do fiber in California
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.fiberinternetcenter.com/
>>>>>
>>>>> They do 5 meg burstable to 10 at $1595-1995 but they told me they can 
>>>>> do
>>>>> 100 meg for about $7000 per month.
>>>>>
>>>>> John
>>>>>
>>>>> Mike Hammett wrote:
>>>>> Right.  I'm amazed at how many ISPs out there don't know who these
>>>>> provider

Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information

[Mike Hammett]

Not really.  Years of research on my own behalf.


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com



--
From: "Dennis Burgess - LinkTechs.net" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, December 01, 2008 11:49 AM
To: "WISPA General List" 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information

> Is there a central resource for this type of information?
>
> --
> * Dennis Burgess, CCNA, A+, Mikrotik Certified Trainer
> WISPA Board Member - wispa.org <http://www.wispa.org/>
> Link Technologies, Inc -- Mikrotik & WISP Support Services*
> *Office*: 314-735-0270 *Website*: http://www.linktechs.net
> <http://www.linktechs.net/>
>
> */ Link Technologies, Inc is offering LIVE Mikrotik On-Line Training
> <http://www.linktechs.net/onlinetraining.asp>/*
>
>
>
> Mike Hammett wrote:
>> Comcast, Global Crossing, Level(3), Electric Lightwave, and 360 Networks
>> have POPs in your town.
>>
>> I might look more later, but I figure that's a good place to start.
>>
>>
>> -
>> Mike Hammett
>> Intelligent Computing Solutions
>> http://www.ics-il.com
>>
>>
>>
>> --------------
>> From: "Mark Nash" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Sent: Monday, December 01, 2008 10:10 AM
>> To: "WISPA General List" 
>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
>>
>>
>>> I'm having a heck of a time finding providers in my area (Eugene, OR) 
>>> from
>>> which I can backhaul to my network.  Anyone know of a good site or have
>>> contacts for people who could quote in my area?  We're looking for 30-40
>>> megs at this point, but if we COULD get these 100meg ports at a 
>>> reasonable
>>> rate, we'd go for it.
>>>
>>> Mark Nash
>>> UnwiredWest
>>> 78 Centennial Loop
>>> Suite E
>>> Eugene, OR 97401
>>> 541-998-
>>> 541-998-5599 fax
>>> http://www.unwiredwest.com
>>> - Original Message - 
>>> From: "Chuck McCown - 3" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>> To: "WISPA General List" 
>>> Sent: Monday, December 01, 2008 6:32 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> There deals clear down to $7/meg.
>>>> Ask vendors for a 2 year contract, GigE 100 Mbps burstable.
>>>>
>>>> - Original Message - 
>>>> From: "John Thomas" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>>> To: "WISPA General List" 
>>>> Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2008 10:07 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> http://www.nefiber.com/
>>>>>
>>>>> Recently, I learned that American Fiber Systems has "InterCity Fiber
>>>>> Ring" that connects Las Vegas, Reno/Carson City, Boise and Salt Lake 
>>>>> on
>>>>> a fully redundant OC-192 capacity backbone.
>>>>> They aren't cheap on the low end at $2000/month for 5 meg burstable to
>>>>> 10, but I image the price per meg drops quickly as the bandwidth goes
>>>>>
>>> up.
>>>
>>>>> These guys do fiber in California
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.fiberinternetcenter.com/
>>>>>
>>>>> They do 5 meg burstable to 10 at $1595-1995 but they told me they can
>>>>> do
>>>>> 100 meg for about $7000 per month.
>>>>>
>>>>> John
>>>>>
>>>>> Mike Hammett wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Right.  I'm amazed at how many ISPs out there don't know who these
>>>>>> providers
>>>>>> are, or the carriers outside of the RBOCs, or what connectivity
>>>>>> possibilities are in their areas.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -
>>>>>> Mike Hammett
>>>>>> Intelligent Computing Solutions
>>>>>> http://www.ics-il.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> From: "Jason Hodge" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2008 12:

Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information

[Randy Cosby]

Yeah, I know.   It was just a happier time when they didn't exist is 
what I was trying to say :)


Randy


Mike Hammett wrote:
> Qwest was the merger of US West and Qwest.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qwest
>
>
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions
> http://www.ics-il.com
>
>
>
> --
> From: "Randy Cosby" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Monday, December 01, 2008 10:05 AM
> To: "WISPA General List" 
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
>
>   
>> Heh... We started with Westnet here too!  Those were the days.  Then
>> MCI, then Sprint... Never heard of Qwest in those days.
>>
>> Randy
>>
>>
>> Travis Johnson wrote:
>> 
>>> Wow starting with a full T1 we started with a 256k fractional T1
>>> from the local university that was part of WestNet. ;)
>>>
>>> Travis
>>> Microserv
>>>
>>> Chuck McCown wrote:
>>>
>>>   
>>>> Yeah, I know.  But that is getting cheaper all the time.  If you get the 
>>>> $5 deal, perhaps there is an ATM cloud in the city you can use to 
>>>> wholesale in the city to defray part of the cost and get you as far out 
>>>> of town as possible.  If you give it away at cost or just a bit above 
>>>> just to help pay the bill you should have plenty of takers in town.
>>>>
>>>> Take delivery at a friendly wholesale customer on the edge of the cloud 
>>>> and then start the dragonwave etc backhaul chain to whereever your turf 
>>>> is.  Just have to keep  banging your head against the rock, eventually 
>>>> the rock gives up.  We started with 1 T1 from Qwest like many others.
>>>>   - Original Message - 
>>>>   From: Travis Johnson
>>>>   To: WISPA General List
>>>>   Sent: Monday, December 01, 2008 7:55 AM
>>>>   Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>   Chuck the issue with most people isn't the cost per meg at the 
>>>> port.... I've found $5/meg at the port.... the issue is getting it from 
>>>> the port to your NOC. :(
>>>>
>>>>   Travis
>>>>   Microserv
>>>>
>>>>   Chuck McCown - 3 wrote:
>>>> There deals clear down to $7/meg.
>>>> Ask vendors for a 2 year contract, GigE 100 Mbps burstable.
>>>>
>>>> - Original Message - 
>>>> From: "John Thomas" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>>> To: "WISPA General List" 
>>>> Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2008 10:07 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>   http://www.nefiber.com/
>>>>
>>>> Recently, I learned that American Fiber Systems has "InterCity Fiber
>>>> Ring" that connects Las Vegas, Reno/Carson City, Boise and Salt Lake on
>>>> a fully redundant OC-192 capacity backbone.
>>>> They aren't cheap on the low end at $2000/month for 5 meg burstable to
>>>> 10, but I image the price per meg drops quickly as the bandwidth goes 
>>>> up.
>>>> These guys do fiber in California
>>>>
>>>> http://www.fiberinternetcenter.com/
>>>>
>>>> They do 5 meg burstable to 10 at $1595-1995 but they told me they can do
>>>> 100 meg for about $7000 per month.
>>>>
>>>> John
>>>>
>>>> Mike Hammett wrote:
>>>> Right.  I'm amazed at how many ISPs out there don't know who these
>>>> providers
>>>> are, or the carriers outside of the RBOCs, or what connectivity
>>>> possibilities are in their areas.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -
>>>> Mike Hammett
>>>> Intelligent Computing Solutions
>>>> http://www.ics-il.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------
>>>> From: "Jason Hodge" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2008 12:15 PM
>>>> To: "WISPA General List" 
>>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>   Right, it is not. It is a embedded content provider for web sites.
>>>>
>>>> J Hodge
>>>> 630.

Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information

[Dennis Burgess - LinkTechs.net]

Is there a central resource for this type of information?

--
* Dennis Burgess, CCNA, A+, Mikrotik Certified Trainer
WISPA Board Member - wispa.org <http://www.wispa.org/>
Link Technologies, Inc -- Mikrotik & WISP Support Services*
*Office*: 314-735-0270 *Website*: http://www.linktechs.net 
<http://www.linktechs.net/>

*/ Link Technologies, Inc is offering LIVE Mikrotik On-Line Training 
<http://www.linktechs.net/onlinetraining.asp>/*



Mike Hammett wrote:
> Comcast, Global Crossing, Level(3), Electric Lightwave, and 360 Networks 
> have POPs in your town.
>
> I might look more later, but I figure that's a good place to start.
>
>
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions
> http://www.ics-il.com
>
>
>
> --
> From: "Mark Nash" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Monday, December 01, 2008 10:10 AM
> To: "WISPA General List" 
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
>
>   
>> I'm having a heck of a time finding providers in my area (Eugene, OR) from
>> which I can backhaul to my network.  Anyone know of a good site or have
>> contacts for people who could quote in my area?  We're looking for 30-40
>> megs at this point, but if we COULD get these 100meg ports at a reasonable
>> rate, we'd go for it.
>>
>> Mark Nash
>> UnwiredWest
>> 78 Centennial Loop
>> Suite E
>> Eugene, OR 97401
>> 541-998-
>> 541-998-5599 fax
>> http://www.unwiredwest.com
>> - Original Message - 
>> From: "Chuck McCown - 3" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: "WISPA General List" 
>> Sent: Monday, December 01, 2008 6:32 AM
>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
>>
>>
>>     
>>> There deals clear down to $7/meg.
>>> Ask vendors for a 2 year contract, GigE 100 Mbps burstable.
>>>
>>> - Original Message - 
>>> From: "John Thomas" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>> To: "WISPA General List" 
>>> Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2008 10:07 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
>>>
>>>
>>>   
>>>> http://www.nefiber.com/
>>>>
>>>> Recently, I learned that American Fiber Systems has "InterCity Fiber
>>>> Ring" that connects Las Vegas, Reno/Carson City, Boise and Salt Lake on
>>>> a fully redundant OC-192 capacity backbone.
>>>> They aren't cheap on the low end at $2000/month for 5 meg burstable to
>>>> 10, but I image the price per meg drops quickly as the bandwidth goes
>>>> 
>> up.
>> 
>>>> These guys do fiber in California
>>>>
>>>> http://www.fiberinternetcenter.com/
>>>>
>>>> They do 5 meg burstable to 10 at $1595-1995 but they told me they can 
>>>> do
>>>> 100 meg for about $7000 per month.
>>>>
>>>> John
>>>>
>>>> Mike Hammett wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> Right.  I'm amazed at how many ISPs out there don't know who these
>>>>> providers
>>>>> are, or the carriers outside of the RBOCs, or what connectivity
>>>>> possibilities are in their areas.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -
>>>>> Mike Hammett
>>>>> Intelligent Computing Solutions
>>>>> http://www.ics-il.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> From: "Jason Hodge" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2008 12:15 PM
>>>>> To: "WISPA General List" 
>>>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>   
>>>>>> Right, it is not. It is a embedded content provider for web sites.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> J Hodge
>>>>>> 630.445.3779
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -Original Message-
>>>>>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>>>>>     
>> On
>> 
>>>>>> Behalf Of Mike Hammett
>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2008 11:53 AM
>>>>>> To: WISPA General List
>>>>>> Subjec

Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information

[Mike Hammett]

Comcast, Global Crossing, Level(3), Electric Lightwave, and 360 Networks 
have POPs in your town.

I might look more later, but I figure that's a good place to start.


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com



--
From: "Mark Nash" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, December 01, 2008 10:10 AM
To: "WISPA General List" 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information

> I'm having a heck of a time finding providers in my area (Eugene, OR) from
> which I can backhaul to my network.  Anyone know of a good site or have
> contacts for people who could quote in my area?  We're looking for 30-40
> megs at this point, but if we COULD get these 100meg ports at a reasonable
> rate, we'd go for it.
>
> Mark Nash
> UnwiredWest
> 78 Centennial Loop
> Suite E
> Eugene, OR 97401
> 541-998-
> 541-998-5599 fax
> http://www.unwiredwest.com
> - Original Message - 
> From: "Chuck McCown - 3" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "WISPA General List" 
> Sent: Monday, December 01, 2008 6:32 AM
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
>
>
>> There deals clear down to $7/meg.
>> Ask vendors for a 2 year contract, GigE 100 Mbps burstable.
>>
>> ----- Original Message - 
>> From: "John Thomas" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: "WISPA General List" 
>> Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2008 10:07 PM
>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
>>
>>
>> >
>> > http://www.nefiber.com/
>> >
>> > Recently, I learned that American Fiber Systems has "InterCity Fiber
>> > Ring" that connects Las Vegas, Reno/Carson City, Boise and Salt Lake on
>> > a fully redundant OC-192 capacity backbone.
>> > They aren't cheap on the low end at $2000/month for 5 meg burstable to
>> > 10, but I image the price per meg drops quickly as the bandwidth goes
> up.
>> > These guys do fiber in California
>> >
>> > http://www.fiberinternetcenter.com/
>> >
>> > They do 5 meg burstable to 10 at $1595-1995 but they told me they can 
>> > do
>> > 100 meg for about $7000 per month.
>> >
>> > John
>> >
>> > Mike Hammett wrote:
>> >> Right.  I'm amazed at how many ISPs out there don't know who these
>> >> providers
>> >> are, or the carriers outside of the RBOCs, or what connectivity
>> >> possibilities are in their areas.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> -
>> >> Mike Hammett
>> >> Intelligent Computing Solutions
>> >> http://www.ics-il.com
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --------------
>> >> From: "Jason Hodge" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> >> Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2008 12:15 PM
>> >> To: "WISPA General List" 
>> >> Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>> Right, it is not. It is a embedded content provider for web sites.
>> >>>
>> >>> J Hodge
>> >>> 630.445.3779
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> -Original Message-
>> >>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> On
>> >>> Behalf Of Mike Hammett
>> >>> Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2008 11:53 AM
>> >>> To: WISPA General List
>> >>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
>> >>>
>> >>> I'm not saying it's not possible, but I doubt that there is much much
>> >>> BitTorrent traffic coming from Limelight.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> -
>> >>> Mike Hammett
>> >>> Intelligent Computing Solutions
>> >>> http://www.ics-il.com
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> --
>> >>> From: "Jason Hodge" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> >>> Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2008 11:41 AM
>> >>> To: "WISPA General List" 
>> >>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>> Sounds like bit torrent. What ports is the traffic on?
>> >>>>
>> >>>&g

Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information

[Mike Hammett]

Qwest was the merger of US West and Qwest.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qwest


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com



--
From: "Randy Cosby" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, December 01, 2008 10:05 AM
To: "WISPA General List" 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information

> Heh... We started with Westnet here too!  Those were the days.  Then
> MCI, then Sprint... Never heard of Qwest in those days.
>
> Randy
>
>
> Travis Johnson wrote:
>> Wow starting with a full T1 we started with a 256k fractional T1
>> from the local university that was part of WestNet. ;)
>>
>> Travis
>> Microserv
>>
>> Chuck McCown wrote:
>>
>>> Yeah, I know.  But that is getting cheaper all the time.  If you get the 
>>> $5 deal, perhaps there is an ATM cloud in the city you can use to 
>>> wholesale in the city to defray part of the cost and get you as far out 
>>> of town as possible.  If you give it away at cost or just a bit above 
>>> just to help pay the bill you should have plenty of takers in town.
>>>
>>> Take delivery at a friendly wholesale customer on the edge of the cloud 
>>> and then start the dragonwave etc backhaul chain to whereever your turf 
>>> is.  Just have to keep  banging your head against the rock, eventually 
>>> the rock gives up.  We started with 1 T1 from Qwest like many others.
>>>   - Original Message - 
>>>   From: Travis Johnson
>>>   To: WISPA General List
>>>   Sent: Monday, December 01, 2008 7:55 AM
>>>   Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
>>>
>>>
>>>   Chuck the issue with most people isn't the cost per meg at the 
>>> port I've found $5/meg at the port the issue is getting it from 
>>> the port to your NOC. :(
>>>
>>>   Travis
>>>   Microserv
>>>
>>>   Chuck McCown - 3 wrote:
>>> There deals clear down to $7/meg.
>>> Ask vendors for a 2 year contract, GigE 100 Mbps burstable.
>>>
>>> - Original Message - 
>>> From: "John Thomas" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>> To: "WISPA General List" 
>>> Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2008 10:07 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
>>>
>>>
>>>   http://www.nefiber.com/
>>>
>>> Recently, I learned that American Fiber Systems has "InterCity Fiber
>>> Ring" that connects Las Vegas, Reno/Carson City, Boise and Salt Lake on
>>> a fully redundant OC-192 capacity backbone.
>>> They aren't cheap on the low end at $2000/month for 5 meg burstable to
>>> 10, but I image the price per meg drops quickly as the bandwidth goes 
>>> up.
>>> These guys do fiber in California
>>>
>>> http://www.fiberinternetcenter.com/
>>>
>>> They do 5 meg burstable to 10 at $1595-1995 but they told me they can do
>>> 100 meg for about $7000 per month.
>>>
>>> John
>>>
>>> Mike Hammett wrote:
>>> Right.  I'm amazed at how many ISPs out there don't know who these
>>> providers
>>> are, or the carriers outside of the RBOCs, or what connectivity
>>> possibilities are in their areas.
>>>
>>>
>>> -
>>> Mike Hammett
>>> Intelligent Computing Solutions
>>> http://www.ics-il.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> From: "Jason Hodge" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>> Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2008 12:15 PM
>>> To: "WISPA General List" 
>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
>>>
>>>
>>>   Right, it is not. It is a embedded content provider for web sites.
>>>
>>> J Hodge
>>> 630.445.3779
>>>
>>>
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
>>> Behalf Of Mike Hammett
>>> Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2008 11:53 AM
>>> To: WISPA General List
>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
>>>
>>> I'm not saying it's not possible, but I doubt that there is much much
>>> BitTorrent traffic coming from Limelight.
>>>
>>>
>>> -
>>> Mike Hammett
>>> Intelligent Computing Solutions
>

Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information

[Mark Nash]

I'm having a heck of a time finding providers in my area (Eugene, OR) from
which I can backhaul to my network.  Anyone know of a good site or have
contacts for people who could quote in my area?  We're looking for 30-40
megs at this point, but if we COULD get these 100meg ports at a reasonable
rate, we'd go for it.

Mark Nash
UnwiredWest
78 Centennial Loop
Suite E
Eugene, OR 97401
541-998-
541-998-5599 fax
http://www.unwiredwest.com
- Original Message - 
From: "Chuck McCown - 3" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Monday, December 01, 2008 6:32 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information


> There deals clear down to $7/meg.
> Ask vendors for a 2 year contract, GigE 100 Mbps burstable.
>
> - Original Message - 
> From: "John Thomas" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "WISPA General List" 
> Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2008 10:07 PM
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
>
>
> >
> > http://www.nefiber.com/
> >
> > Recently, I learned that American Fiber Systems has "InterCity Fiber
> > Ring" that connects Las Vegas, Reno/Carson City, Boise and Salt Lake on
> > a fully redundant OC-192 capacity backbone.
> > They aren't cheap on the low end at $2000/month for 5 meg burstable to
> > 10, but I image the price per meg drops quickly as the bandwidth goes
up.
> > These guys do fiber in California
> >
> > http://www.fiberinternetcenter.com/
> >
> > They do 5 meg burstable to 10 at $1595-1995 but they told me they can do
> > 100 meg for about $7000 per month.
> >
> > John
> >
> > Mike Hammett wrote:
> >> Right.  I'm amazed at how many ISPs out there don't know who these
> >> providers
> >> are, or the carriers outside of the RBOCs, or what connectivity
> >> possibilities are in their areas.
> >>
> >>
> >> -
> >> Mike Hammett
> >> Intelligent Computing Solutions
> >> http://www.ics-il.com
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> From: "Jason Hodge" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >> Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2008 12:15 PM
> >> To: "WISPA General List" 
> >> Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
> >>
> >>
> >>> Right, it is not. It is a embedded content provider for web sites.
> >>>
> >>> J Hodge
> >>> 630.445.3779
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> -Original Message-
> >>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On
> >>> Behalf Of Mike Hammett
> >>> Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2008 11:53 AM
> >>> To: WISPA General List
> >>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
> >>>
> >>> I'm not saying it's not possible, but I doubt that there is much much
> >>> BitTorrent traffic coming from Limelight.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> -
> >>> Mike Hammett
> >>> Intelligent Computing Solutions
> >>> http://www.ics-il.com
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> From: "Jason Hodge" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >>> Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2008 11:41 AM
> >>> To: "WISPA General List" 
> >>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> Sounds like bit torrent. What ports is the traffic on?
> >>>>
> >>>> J Hodge
> >>>> 630.445.3779
> >>>>
> >>>> -Original Message-
> >>>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On
> >>>> Behalf Of Travis Johnson
> >>>> Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2008 11:43 AM
> >>>> To: WISPA General List
> >>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
> >>>>
> >>>> Hi,
> >>>>
> >>>> So I grabbed all of Limelight Networks' IP blocks and created a queue
> >>>> on
> >>>> my MT core router. I am currently seeing about 8-9Mbps upload with
only
> >>>> a 500kbps download. Any idea why I would be seeing so much "upload"
> >>>> traffic (coming from 10-15 different customers)?
> >>>>
> >>>> Travis
> >>>> Mic

Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information

[Randy Cosby]

Heh... We started with Westnet here too!  Those were the days.  Then 
MCI, then Sprint... Never heard of Qwest in those days.

Randy


Travis Johnson wrote:
> Wow starting with a full T1 we started with a 256k fractional T1 
> from the local university that was part of WestNet. ;)
>
> Travis
> Microserv
>
> Chuck McCown wrote:
>   
>> Yeah, I know.  But that is getting cheaper all the time.  If you get the $5 
>> deal, perhaps there is an ATM cloud in the city you can use to wholesale in 
>> the city to defray part of the cost and get you as far out of town as 
>> possible.  If you give it away at cost or just a bit above just to help pay 
>> the bill you should have plenty of takers in town.
>>
>> Take delivery at a friendly wholesale customer on the edge of the cloud and 
>> then start the dragonwave etc backhaul chain to whereever your turf is.  
>> Just have to keep  banging your head against the rock, eventually the rock 
>> gives up.  We started with 1 T1 from Qwest like many others.
>>   - Original Message - 
>>   From: Travis Johnson 
>>   To: WISPA General List 
>>   Sent: Monday, December 01, 2008 7:55 AM
>>   Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
>>
>>
>>   Chuck the issue with most people isn't the cost per meg at the 
>> port I've found $5/meg at the port the issue is getting it from the 
>> port to your NOC. :(
>>
>>   Travis
>>   Microserv
>>
>>   Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: 
>> There deals clear down to $7/meg.
>> Ask vendors for a 2 year contract, GigE 100 Mbps burstable.
>>
>> - Original Message - 
>> From: "John Thomas" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: "WISPA General List" 
>> Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2008 10:07 PM
>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
>>
>>
>>   http://www.nefiber.com/
>>
>> Recently, I learned that American Fiber Systems has "InterCity Fiber
>> Ring" that connects Las Vegas, Reno/Carson City, Boise and Salt Lake on
>> a fully redundant OC-192 capacity backbone.
>> They aren't cheap on the low end at $2000/month for 5 meg burstable to
>> 10, but I image the price per meg drops quickly as the bandwidth goes up.
>> These guys do fiber in California
>>
>> http://www.fiberinternetcenter.com/
>>
>> They do 5 meg burstable to 10 at $1595-1995 but they told me they can do
>> 100 meg for about $7000 per month.
>>
>> John
>>
>> Mike Hammett wrote:
>> Right.  I'm amazed at how many ISPs out there don't know who these 
>> providers
>> are, or the carriers outside of the RBOCs, or what connectivity
>> possibilities are in their areas.
>>
>>
>> -
>> Mike Hammett
>> Intelligent Computing Solutions
>> http://www.ics-il.com
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> From: "Jason Hodge" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2008 12:15 PM
>> To: "WISPA General List" 
>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
>>
>>
>>   Right, it is not. It is a embedded content provider for web sites.
>>
>> J Hodge
>> 630.445.3779
>>
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
>> Behalf Of Mike Hammett
>> Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2008 11:53 AM
>> To: WISPA General List
>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
>>
>> I'm not saying it's not possible, but I doubt that there is much much
>> BitTorrent traffic coming from Limelight.
>>
>>
>> -
>> Mike Hammett
>> Intelligent Computing Solutions
>> http://www.ics-il.com
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> From: "Jason Hodge" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2008 11:41 AM
>> To: "WISPA General List" 
>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
>>
>>
>> Sounds like bit torrent. What ports is the traffic on?
>>
>> J Hodge
>> 630.445.3779
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
>> Behalf Of Travis Johnson
>> Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2008 11:43 AM
>> To: WISPA General List
>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> So I grabbed all of Limeli

Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information

[Travis Johnson]

Wow starting with a full T1 we started with a 256k fractional T1 
from the local university that was part of WestNet. ;)

Travis
Microserv

Chuck McCown wrote:
> Yeah, I know.  But that is getting cheaper all the time.  If you get the $5 
> deal, perhaps there is an ATM cloud in the city you can use to wholesale in 
> the city to defray part of the cost and get you as far out of town as 
> possible.  If you give it away at cost or just a bit above just to help pay 
> the bill you should have plenty of takers in town.
>
> Take delivery at a friendly wholesale customer on the edge of the cloud and 
> then start the dragonwave etc backhaul chain to whereever your turf is.  Just 
> have to keep  banging your head against the rock, eventually the rock gives 
> up.  We started with 1 T1 from Qwest like many others.
>   - Original Message - 
>   From: Travis Johnson 
>   To: WISPA General List 
>   Sent: Monday, December 01, 2008 7:55 AM
>   Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
>
>
>   Chuck the issue with most people isn't the cost per meg at the port 
> I've found $5/meg at the port the issue is getting it from the port to 
> your NOC. :(
>
>   Travis
>   Microserv
>
>   Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: 
> There deals clear down to $7/meg.
> Ask vendors for a 2 year contract, GigE 100 Mbps burstable.
>
> - Original Message - 
> From: "John Thomas" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "WISPA General List" 
> Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2008 10:07 PM
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
>
>
>   http://www.nefiber.com/
>
> Recently, I learned that American Fiber Systems has "InterCity Fiber
> Ring" that connects Las Vegas, Reno/Carson City, Boise and Salt Lake on
> a fully redundant OC-192 capacity backbone.
> They aren't cheap on the low end at $2000/month for 5 meg burstable to
> 10, but I image the price per meg drops quickly as the bandwidth goes up.
> These guys do fiber in California
>
> http://www.fiberinternetcenter.com/
>
> They do 5 meg burstable to 10 at $1595-1995 but they told me they can do
> 100 meg for about $7000 per month.
>
> John
>
> Mike Hammett wrote:
> Right.  I'm amazed at how many ISPs out there don't know who these 
> providers
> are, or the carriers outside of the RBOCs, or what connectivity
> possibilities are in their areas.
>
>
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions
> http://www.ics-il.com
>
>
>
> --
> From: "Jason Hodge" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2008 12:15 PM
> To: "WISPA General List" 
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
>
>
>   Right, it is not. It is a embedded content provider for web sites.
>
> J Hodge
> 630.445.3779
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Mike Hammett
> Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2008 11:53 AM
> To: WISPA General List
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
>
> I'm not saying it's not possible, but I doubt that there is much much
> BitTorrent traffic coming from Limelight.
>
>
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions
> http://www.ics-il.com
>
>
>
> --
> From: "Jason Hodge" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2008 11:41 AM
> To: "WISPA General List" 
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
>
>
> Sounds like bit torrent. What ports is the traffic on?
>
> J Hodge
> 630.445.3779
>
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Travis Johnson
> Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2008 11:43 AM
> To: WISPA General List
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
>
> Hi,
>
> So I grabbed all of Limelight Networks' IP blocks and created a queue 
> on
> my MT core router. I am currently seeing about 8-9Mbps upload with only
> a 500kbps download. Any idea why I would be seeing so much "upload"
> traffic (coming from 10-15 different customers)?
>
> Travis
> Microserv
>
> Mike Hammett wrote:
>
>   208.111.168.6
>
>
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions
> http://www.ics-il.com
>
>
>
>
> From: Travis Johnson
> Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2008 10:40 AM
> To: WISPA General List
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
>
>

Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information

[Chuck McCown]

Yeah, I know.  But that is getting cheaper all the time.  If you get the $5 
deal, perhaps there is an ATM cloud in the city you can use to wholesale in the 
city to defray part of the cost and get you as far out of town as possible.  If 
you give it away at cost or just a bit above just to help pay the bill you 
should have plenty of takers in town.

Take delivery at a friendly wholesale customer on the edge of the cloud and 
then start the dragonwave etc backhaul chain to whereever your turf is.  Just 
have to keep  banging your head against the rock, eventually the rock gives up. 
 We started with 1 T1 from Qwest like many others.
  - Original Message - 
  From: Travis Johnson 
  To: WISPA General List 
  Sent: Monday, December 01, 2008 7:55 AM
  Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information


  Chuck the issue with most people isn't the cost per meg at the port 
I've found $5/meg at the port the issue is getting it from the port to your 
NOC. :(

  Travis
  Microserv

  Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: 
There deals clear down to $7/meg.
Ask vendors for a 2 year contract, GigE 100 Mbps burstable.

- Original Message - 
From: "John Thomas" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2008 10:07 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information


  http://www.nefiber.com/

Recently, I learned that American Fiber Systems has "InterCity Fiber
Ring" that connects Las Vegas, Reno/Carson City, Boise and Salt Lake on
a fully redundant OC-192 capacity backbone.
They aren't cheap on the low end at $2000/month for 5 meg burstable to
10, but I image the price per meg drops quickly as the bandwidth goes up.
These guys do fiber in California

http://www.fiberinternetcenter.com/

They do 5 meg burstable to 10 at $1595-1995 but they told me they can do
100 meg for about $7000 per month.

John

Mike Hammett wrote:
Right.  I'm amazed at how many ISPs out there don't know who these 
providers
are, or the carriers outside of the RBOCs, or what connectivity
possibilities are in their areas.


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com



--
From: "Jason Hodge" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2008 12:15 PM
To: "WISPA General List" 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information


  Right, it is not. It is a embedded content provider for web sites.

J Hodge
630.445.3779


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mike Hammett
Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2008 11:53 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information

I'm not saying it's not possible, but I doubt that there is much much
BitTorrent traffic coming from Limelight.


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com



--
From: "Jason Hodge" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2008 11:41 AM
To: "WISPA General List" 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information


Sounds like bit torrent. What ports is the traffic on?

J Hodge
630.445.3779

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Travis Johnson
Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2008 11:43 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information

Hi,

So I grabbed all of Limelight Networks' IP blocks and created a queue 
on
my MT core router. I am currently seeing about 8-9Mbps upload with only
a 500kbps download. Any idea why I would be seeing so much "upload"
traffic (coming from 10-15 different customers)?

Travis
Microserv

Mike Hammett wrote:

  208.111.168.6


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com




From: Travis Johnson
Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2008 10:40 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information


Do you happen to have the IP blocks it was coming from?

Travis
Microserv

Mike Hammett wrote:
Since no one answered, I got NetFlix myself and added it to my XBox...
the
bandwidth is coming from Limelight Networks.

Not quite as open as Youtube's "Yes, we will peer with you.", but they
have
an open peering policy  that'll happen when you're generating 1000
Gbps
of traffic.


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com



------------------
From: "Mike Hammett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 11:04 AM
To: "WISPA General List" 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information

  Can anyone provide the ASN the streams come from?


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.

Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information

[Travis Johnson]

Chuck the issue with most people isn't the cost per meg at the
port I've found $5/meg at the port the issue is getting it from
the port to your NOC. :(

Travis
Microserv

Chuck McCown - 3 wrote:

  There deals clear down to $7/meg.
Ask vendors for a 2 year contract, GigE 100 Mbps burstable.

- Original Message - 
From: "John Thomas" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2008 10:07 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information


  
  
http://www.nefiber.com/

Recently, I learned that American Fiber Systems has "InterCity Fiber
Ring" that connects Las Vegas, Reno/Carson City, Boise and Salt Lake on
a fully redundant OC-192 capacity backbone.
They aren't cheap on the low end at $2000/month for 5 meg burstable to
10, but I image the price per meg drops quickly as the bandwidth goes up.
These guys do fiber in California

http://www.fiberinternetcenter.com/

They do 5 meg burstable to 10 at $1595-1995 but they told me they can do
100 meg for about $7000 per month.

John

Mike Hammett wrote:


  Right.  I'm amazed at how many ISPs out there don't know who these 
providers
are, or the carriers outside of the RBOCs, or what connectivity
possibilities are in their areas.


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com



--
From: "Jason Hodge" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2008 12:15 PM
To: "WISPA General List" 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information


  
  
Right, it is not. It is a embedded content provider for web sites.

J Hodge
630.445.3779


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On
Behalf Of Mike Hammett
Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2008 11:53 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information

I'm not saying it's not possible, but I doubt that there is much much
BitTorrent traffic coming from Limelight.


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com



--
From: "Jason Hodge" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2008 11:41 AM
To: "WISPA General List" 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information




  Sounds like bit torrent. What ports is the traffic on?

J Hodge
630.445.3779

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On
Behalf Of Travis Johnson
Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2008 11:43 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information

Hi,

So I grabbed all of Limelight Networks' IP blocks and created a queue 
on
my MT core router. I am currently seeing about 8-9Mbps upload with only
a 500kbps download. Any idea why I would be seeing so much "upload"
traffic (coming from 10-15 different customers)?

Travis
Microserv

Mike Hammett wrote:

  
  
208.111.168.6


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com




From: Travis Johnson
Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2008 10:40 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information


Do you happen to have the IP blocks it was coming from?

Travis
Microserv

Mike Hammett wrote:
Since no one answered, I got NetFlix myself and added it to my XBox...
the
bandwidth is coming from Limelight Networks.

Not quite as open as Youtube's "Yes, we will peer with you.", but they
have
an open peering policy  that'll happen when you're generating 1000
Gbps
of traffic.


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com



------------------
From: "Mike Hammett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 11:04 AM
To: "WISPA General List" 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information

  Can anyone provide the ASN the streams come from?


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com



--
From: "Dennis Burgess" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2008 3:42 PM
To: "WISPA General List" 
Subject: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information

In case you did not know, recently NetFlix and Microsoft teamed up
to
provide video on-demand services to all of the XBox 360 users.  Not 
only
can you start one of 12,000 videos in a matter of seconds on your
computer, but you can also do this right on your Xbox 360, bringing it
mainstream for many who have never used it.  Not to mention the super
low cost of basically $9 bucks a month!

I have been using it for a few weeks and since it came out on the XBox
360 last Wednesday, I have strea

Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information

[Chuck McCown - 3]

There deals clear down to $7/meg.
Ask vendors for a 2 year contract, GigE 100 Mbps burstable.

- Original Message - 
From: "John Thomas" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2008 10:07 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information


>
> http://www.nefiber.com/
>
> Recently, I learned that American Fiber Systems has "InterCity Fiber
> Ring" that connects Las Vegas, Reno/Carson City, Boise and Salt Lake on
> a fully redundant OC-192 capacity backbone.
> They aren't cheap on the low end at $2000/month for 5 meg burstable to
> 10, but I image the price per meg drops quickly as the bandwidth goes up.
> These guys do fiber in California
>
> http://www.fiberinternetcenter.com/
>
> They do 5 meg burstable to 10 at $1595-1995 but they told me they can do
> 100 meg for about $7000 per month.
>
> John
>
> Mike Hammett wrote:
>> Right.  I'm amazed at how many ISPs out there don't know who these 
>> providers
>> are, or the carriers outside of the RBOCs, or what connectivity
>> possibilities are in their areas.
>>
>>
>> -
>> Mike Hammett
>> Intelligent Computing Solutions
>> http://www.ics-il.com
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------
>> From: "Jason Hodge" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2008 12:15 PM
>> To: "WISPA General List" 
>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
>>
>>
>>> Right, it is not. It is a embedded content provider for web sites.
>>>
>>> J Hodge
>>> 630.445.3779
>>>
>>>
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
>>> Behalf Of Mike Hammett
>>> Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2008 11:53 AM
>>> To: WISPA General List
>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
>>>
>>> I'm not saying it's not possible, but I doubt that there is much much
>>> BitTorrent traffic coming from Limelight.
>>>
>>>
>>> -
>>> Mike Hammett
>>> Intelligent Computing Solutions
>>> http://www.ics-il.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> From: "Jason Hodge" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>> Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2008 11:41 AM
>>> To: "WISPA General List" 
>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
>>>
>>>
>>>> Sounds like bit torrent. What ports is the traffic on?
>>>>
>>>> J Hodge
>>>> 630.445.3779
>>>>
>>>> -Original Message-
>>>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
>>>> Behalf Of Travis Johnson
>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2008 11:43 AM
>>>> To: WISPA General List
>>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
>>>>
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> So I grabbed all of Limelight Networks' IP blocks and created a queue 
>>>> on
>>>> my MT core router. I am currently seeing about 8-9Mbps upload with only
>>>> a 500kbps download. Any idea why I would be seeing so much "upload"
>>>> traffic (coming from 10-15 different customers)?
>>>>
>>>> Travis
>>>> Microserv
>>>>
>>>> Mike Hammett wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> 208.111.168.6
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -
>>>>> Mike Hammett
>>>>> Intelligent Computing Solutions
>>>>> http://www.ics-il.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> From: Travis Johnson
>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2008 10:40 AM
>>>>> To: WISPA General List
>>>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Do you happen to have the IP blocks it was coming from?
>>>>>
>>>>> Travis
>>>>> Microserv
>>>>>
>>>>> Mike Hammett wrote:
>>>>> Since no one answered, I got NetFlix myself and added it to my XBox...
>>>>> the
>>>>> bandwidth is coming from Limelight Networks.
>>>>>
>>>>> Not quite as open as Youtube's "Yes, we will peer with you.", 

Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information

[John Thomas]

http://www.nefiber.com/

Recently, I learned that American Fiber Systems has "InterCity Fiber 
Ring" that connects Las Vegas, Reno/Carson City, Boise and Salt Lake on 
a fully redundant OC-192 capacity backbone.
They aren't cheap on the low end at $2000/month for 5 meg burstable to 
10, but I image the price per meg drops quickly as the bandwidth goes up.
These guys do fiber in California

http://www.fiberinternetcenter.com/

They do 5 meg burstable to 10 at $1595-1995 but they told me they can do 
100 meg for about $7000 per month.

John

Mike Hammett wrote:
> Right.  I'm amazed at how many ISPs out there don't know who these providers 
> are, or the carriers outside of the RBOCs, or what connectivity 
> possibilities are in their areas.
>
>
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions
> http://www.ics-il.com
>
>
>
> --
> From: "Jason Hodge" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2008 12:15 PM
> To: "WISPA General List" 
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
>
>   
>> Right, it is not. It is a embedded content provider for web sites.
>>
>> J Hodge
>> 630.445.3779
>>
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On 
>> Behalf Of Mike Hammett
>> Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2008 11:53 AM
>> To: WISPA General List
>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
>>
>> I'm not saying it's not possible, but I doubt that there is much much
>> BitTorrent traffic coming from Limelight.
>>
>>
>> -
>> Mike Hammett
>> Intelligent Computing Solutions
>> http://www.ics-il.com
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> From: "Jason Hodge" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2008 11:41 AM
>> To: "WISPA General List" 
>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
>>
>> 
>>> Sounds like bit torrent. What ports is the traffic on?
>>>
>>> J Hodge
>>> 630.445.3779
>>>
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
>>> Behalf Of Travis Johnson
>>> Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2008 11:43 AM
>>> To: WISPA General List
>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
>>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> So I grabbed all of Limelight Networks' IP blocks and created a queue on
>>> my MT core router. I am currently seeing about 8-9Mbps upload with only
>>> a 500kbps download. Any idea why I would be seeing so much "upload"
>>> traffic (coming from 10-15 different customers)?
>>>
>>> Travis
>>> Microserv
>>>
>>> Mike Hammett wrote:
>>>   
>>>> 208.111.168.6
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -
>>>> Mike Hammett
>>>> Intelligent Computing Solutions
>>>> http://www.ics-il.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> From: Travis Johnson
>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2008 10:40 AM
>>>> To: WISPA General List
>>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Do you happen to have the IP blocks it was coming from?
>>>>
>>>> Travis
>>>> Microserv
>>>>
>>>> Mike Hammett wrote:
>>>> Since no one answered, I got NetFlix myself and added it to my XBox...
>>>> the
>>>> bandwidth is coming from Limelight Networks.
>>>>
>>>> Not quite as open as Youtube's "Yes, we will peer with you.", but they
>>>> have
>>>> an open peering policy  that'll happen when you're generating 1000
>>>> Gbps
>>>> of traffic.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -
>>>> Mike Hammett
>>>> Intelligent Computing Solutions
>>>> http://www.ics-il.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> From: "Mike Hammett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>>> Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 11:04 AM
>>>> To: "WISPA General List" 
>>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
>>>>
>>>>   Can anyone provide the ASN the streams come f

Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information

[Mike Hammett]

Right.  I'm amazed at how many ISPs out there don't know who these providers 
are, or the carriers outside of the RBOCs, or what connectivity 
possibilities are in their areas.


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com



--
From: "Jason Hodge" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2008 12:15 PM
To: "WISPA General List" 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information

> Right, it is not. It is a embedded content provider for web sites.
>
> J Hodge
> 630.445.3779
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On 
> Behalf Of Mike Hammett
> Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2008 11:53 AM
> To: WISPA General List
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
>
> I'm not saying it's not possible, but I doubt that there is much much
> BitTorrent traffic coming from Limelight.
>
>
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions
> http://www.ics-il.com
>
>
>
> --
> From: "Jason Hodge" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2008 11:41 AM
> To: "WISPA General List" 
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
>
>> Sounds like bit torrent. What ports is the traffic on?
>>
>> J Hodge
>> 630.445.3779
>>
>> -----Original Message-
>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
>> Behalf Of Travis Johnson
>> Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2008 11:43 AM
>> To: WISPA General List
>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> So I grabbed all of Limelight Networks' IP blocks and created a queue on
>> my MT core router. I am currently seeing about 8-9Mbps upload with only
>> a 500kbps download. Any idea why I would be seeing so much "upload"
>> traffic (coming from 10-15 different customers)?
>>
>> Travis
>> Microserv
>>
>> Mike Hammett wrote:
>>> 208.111.168.6
>>>
>>>
>>> -
>>> Mike Hammett
>>> Intelligent Computing Solutions
>>> http://www.ics-il.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> From: Travis Johnson
>>> Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2008 10:40 AM
>>> To: WISPA General List
>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
>>>
>>>
>>> Do you happen to have the IP blocks it was coming from?
>>>
>>> Travis
>>> Microserv
>>>
>>> Mike Hammett wrote:
>>> Since no one answered, I got NetFlix myself and added it to my XBox...
>>> the
>>> bandwidth is coming from Limelight Networks.
>>>
>>> Not quite as open as Youtube's "Yes, we will peer with you.", but they
>>> have
>>> an open peering policy  that'll happen when you're generating 1000
>>> Gbps
>>> of traffic.
>>>
>>>
>>> -
>>> Mike Hammett
>>> Intelligent Computing Solutions
>>> http://www.ics-il.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> From: "Mike Hammett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>> Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 11:04 AM
>>> To: "WISPA General List" 
>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
>>>
>>>   Can anyone provide the ASN the streams come from?
>>>
>>>
>>> -
>>> Mike Hammett
>>> Intelligent Computing Solutions
>>> http://www.ics-il.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> From: "Dennis Burgess" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>> Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2008 3:42 PM
>>> To: "WISPA General List" 
>>> Subject: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
>>>
>>> In case you did not know, recently NetFlix and Microsoft teamed up 
>>> to
>>> provide video on-demand services to all of the XBox 360 users.  Not only
>>> can you start one of 12,000 videos in a matter of seconds on your
>>> computer, but you can also do this right on your Xbox 360, bringing it
>>> mainstream for many who have never used it.  Not to mention the super
>>> low cost of basically $9 bucks a month!
>>>
>>> I have been using it for a few weeks and since it came out on the XBox
>>> 3

Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information

[Mike Hammett]

Yeah, Limelight is one of the largest content delivery networks there is... 
their client list is a mile long.

A significant number of downloads and streaming media come Limelight, 
Akamai, and similar networks.


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com



--
From: "Jason Hodge" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2008 11:47 AM
To: "WISPA General List" 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information

> http://www.limelightnetworks.com/
>
> It is online games and streaming video provider. From what I have read it 
> is legit.
>
> J Hodge<http://www.linkedin.com/in/jace0revo>
> 630.445.3779
>
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On 
> Behalf Of Travis Johnson
> Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2008 11:48 AM
> To: WISPA General List
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
>
> Almost all is port 80 and the worst part is this rule comes after my 
> "all-p2p" rule, so I'm missing at least that much in torrent traffic. :(
>
> Travis
> Microserv
>
> Jason Hodge wrote:
>
> Sounds like bit torrent. What ports is the traffic on?
>
>
>
> J Hodge
>
> 630.445.3779
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
>
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson
>
> Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2008 11:43 AM
>
> To: WISPA General List
>
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
>
>
>
> Hi,
>
>
>
> So I grabbed all of Limelight Networks' IP blocks and created a queue on
>
> my MT core router. I am currently seeing about 8-9Mbps upload with only
>
> a 500kbps download. Any idea why I would be seeing so much "upload"
>
> traffic (coming from 10-15 different customers)?
>
>
>
> Travis
>
> Microserv
>
>
>
> Mike Hammett wrote:
>
>
>
> 208.111.168.6
>
>
>
>
>
> -
>
> Mike Hammett
>
> Intelligent Computing Solutions
>
> http://www.ics-il.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From: Travis Johnson
>
> Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2008 10:40 AM
>
> To: WISPA General List
>
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
>
>
>
>
>
> Do you happen to have the IP blocks it was coming from?
>
>
>
> Travis
>
> Microserv
>
>
>
> Mike Hammett wrote:
>
> Since no one answered, I got NetFlix myself and added it to my XBox... 
> the
>
> bandwidth is coming from Limelight Networks.
>
>
>
> Not quite as open as Youtube's "Yes, we will peer with you.", but they 
> have
>
> an open peering policy  that'll happen when you're generating 1000 
> Gbps
>
> of traffic.
>
>
>
>
>
> -
>
> Mike Hammett
>
> Intelligent Computing Solutions
>
> http://www.ics-il.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> From: "Mike Hammett" 
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]><mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
> Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 11:04 AM
>
> To: "WISPA General List" <mailto:wireless@wispa.org>
>
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
>
>
>
>  Can anyone provide the ASN the streams come from?
>
>
>
>
>
> -
>
> Mike Hammett
>
> Intelligent Computing Solutions
>
> http://www.ics-il.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> From: "Dennis Burgess" 
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]><mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
> Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2008 3:42 PM
>
> To: "WISPA General List" <mailto:wireless@wispa.org>
>
> Subject: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
>
>
>
>In case you did not know, recently NetFlix and Microsoft teamed up to
>
> provide video on-demand services to all of the XBox 360 users.  Not only
>
> can you start one of 12,000 videos in a matter of seconds on your
>
> computer, but you can also do this right on your Xbox 360, bringing it
>
> mainstream for many who have never used it.  Not to mention the super
>
> low cost of basically $9 bucks a month!
>
>
>
> I have been using it for a few weeks and since it came out on the XBox
>
> 360 last Wednesday, I have streamed GIGs.  Soon as you hear, gigs, you
>
> may be interested to know what is required to maintain a high-end video
>
> stream.  So, I put together some numbers for everyone, in

Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information

[Jason Hodge]

Right, it is not. It is a embedded content provider for web sites.

J Hodge
630.445.3779


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett
Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2008 11:53 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information

I'm not saying it's not possible, but I doubt that there is much much
BitTorrent traffic coming from Limelight.


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com



--
From: "Jason Hodge" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2008 11:41 AM
To: "WISPA General List" 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information

> Sounds like bit torrent. What ports is the traffic on?
>
> J Hodge
> 630.445.3779
>
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Travis Johnson
> Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2008 11:43 AM
> To: WISPA General List
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
>
> Hi,
>
> So I grabbed all of Limelight Networks' IP blocks and created a queue on
> my MT core router. I am currently seeing about 8-9Mbps upload with only
> a 500kbps download. Any idea why I would be seeing so much "upload"
> traffic (coming from 10-15 different customers)?
>
> Travis
> Microserv
>
> Mike Hammett wrote:
>> 208.111.168.6
>>
>>
>> -
>> Mike Hammett
>> Intelligent Computing Solutions
>> http://www.ics-il.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> From: Travis Johnson
>> Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2008 10:40 AM
>> To: WISPA General List
>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
>>
>>
>> Do you happen to have the IP blocks it was coming from?
>>
>> Travis
>> Microserv
>>
>> Mike Hammett wrote:
>> Since no one answered, I got NetFlix myself and added it to my XBox...
>> the
>> bandwidth is coming from Limelight Networks.
>>
>> Not quite as open as Youtube's "Yes, we will peer with you.", but they
>> have
>> an open peering policy  that'll happen when you're generating 1000
>> Gbps
>> of traffic.
>>
>>
>> -
>> Mike Hammett
>> Intelligent Computing Solutions
>> http://www.ics-il.com
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> From: "Mike Hammett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 11:04 AM
>> To: "WISPA General List" 
>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
>>
>>   Can anyone provide the ASN the streams come from?
>>
>>
>> -
>> Mike Hammett
>> Intelligent Computing Solutions
>> http://www.ics-il.com
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> From: "Dennis Burgess" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2008 3:42 PM
>> To: "WISPA General List" 
>> Subject: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
>>
>> In case you did not know, recently NetFlix and Microsoft teamed up to
>> provide video on-demand services to all of the XBox 360 users.  Not only
>> can you start one of 12,000 videos in a matter of seconds on your
>> computer, but you can also do this right on your Xbox 360, bringing it
>> mainstream for many who have never used it.  Not to mention the super
>> low cost of basically $9 bucks a month!
>>
>> I have been using it for a few weeks and since it came out on the XBox
>> 360 last Wednesday, I have streamed GIGs.  Soon as you hear, gigs, you
>> may be interested to know what is required to maintain a high-end video
>> stream.  So, I put together some numbers for everyone, in case you are
>> interested in how much bandwidth this service uses!   A
>>
>> You can see my data at http://www.linktechs.net/netflix.asp.   Feel free
>> to shoot me a e-mail off-list if you have any questions!
>>
>> --
>> * Dennis Burgess, CCNA, A+, Mikrotik Certified Trainer
>> Link Technologies, Inc -- Mikrotik & WISP Support Services*
>> 314-735-0270
>> http://www.linktechs.net
>> <http://www.linktechs.net/>
>>
>> */ Link Technologies, Inc is offering LIVE Mikrotik On-Line Training
>> <http://www.linktechs.net/onlinetraining.asp>/*
>>
>>
>>
>> ---

Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information

[Mike Hammett]

I'm not saying it's not possible, but I doubt that there is much much 
BitTorrent traffic coming from Limelight.


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com



--
From: "Jason Hodge" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2008 11:41 AM
To: "WISPA General List" 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information

> Sounds like bit torrent. What ports is the traffic on?
>
> J Hodge
> 630.445.3779
>
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On 
> Behalf Of Travis Johnson
> Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2008 11:43 AM
> To: WISPA General List
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
>
> Hi,
>
> So I grabbed all of Limelight Networks' IP blocks and created a queue on
> my MT core router. I am currently seeing about 8-9Mbps upload with only
> a 500kbps download. Any idea why I would be seeing so much "upload"
> traffic (coming from 10-15 different customers)?
>
> Travis
> Microserv
>
> Mike Hammett wrote:
>> 208.111.168.6
>>
>>
>> -
>> Mike Hammett
>> Intelligent Computing Solutions
>> http://www.ics-il.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> From: Travis Johnson
>> Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2008 10:40 AM
>> To: WISPA General List
>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
>>
>>
>> Do you happen to have the IP blocks it was coming from?
>>
>> Travis
>> Microserv
>>
>> Mike Hammett wrote:
>> Since no one answered, I got NetFlix myself and added it to my XBox... 
>> the
>> bandwidth is coming from Limelight Networks.
>>
>> Not quite as open as Youtube's "Yes, we will peer with you.", but they 
>> have
>> an open peering policy  that'll happen when you're generating 1000 
>> Gbps
>> of traffic.
>>
>>
>> -
>> Mike Hammett
>> Intelligent Computing Solutions
>> http://www.ics-il.com
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> From: "Mike Hammett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 11:04 AM
>> To: "WISPA General List" 
>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
>>
>>   Can anyone provide the ASN the streams come from?
>>
>>
>> -
>> Mike Hammett
>> Intelligent Computing Solutions
>> http://www.ics-il.com
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> From: "Dennis Burgess" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2008 3:42 PM
>> To: "WISPA General List" 
>> Subject: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
>>
>> In case you did not know, recently NetFlix and Microsoft teamed up to
>> provide video on-demand services to all of the XBox 360 users.  Not only
>> can you start one of 12,000 videos in a matter of seconds on your
>> computer, but you can also do this right on your Xbox 360, bringing it
>> mainstream for many who have never used it.  Not to mention the super
>> low cost of basically $9 bucks a month!
>>
>> I have been using it for a few weeks and since it came out on the XBox
>> 360 last Wednesday, I have streamed GIGs.  Soon as you hear, gigs, you
>> may be interested to know what is required to maintain a high-end video
>> stream.  So, I put together some numbers for everyone, in case you are
>> interested in how much bandwidth this service uses!   A
>>
>> You can see my data at http://www.linktechs.net/netflix.asp.   Feel free
>> to shoot me a e-mail off-list if you have any questions!
>>
>> --
>> * Dennis Burgess, CCNA, A+, Mikrotik Certified Trainer
>> Link Technologies, Inc -- Mikrotik & WISP Support Services*
>> 314-735-0270
>> http://www.linktechs.net
>> <http://www.linktechs.net/>
>>
>> */ Link Technologies, Inc is offering LIVE Mikrotik On-Line Training
>> <http://www.linktechs.net/onlinetraining.asp>/*
>>
>>
>>
>> 
>> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>> http://signup.wispa.org/
>> 
>>
>> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>>
>> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
>> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>>
>> Archives: http://l

Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information

[Jason Hodge]

http://www.limelightnetworks.com/

It is online games and streaming video provider. From what I have read it is 
legit.

J Hodge<http://www.linkedin.com/in/jace0revo>
630.445.3779

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson
Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2008 11:48 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information

Almost all is port 80 and the worst part is this rule comes after my 
"all-p2p" rule, so I'm missing at least that much in torrent traffic. :(

Travis
Microserv

Jason Hodge wrote:

Sounds like bit torrent. What ports is the traffic on?



J Hodge

630.445.3779



-Original Message-

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On 
Behalf Of Travis Johnson

Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2008 11:43 AM

To: WISPA General List

Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information



Hi,



So I grabbed all of Limelight Networks' IP blocks and created a queue on

my MT core router. I am currently seeing about 8-9Mbps upload with only

a 500kbps download. Any idea why I would be seeing so much "upload"

traffic (coming from 10-15 different customers)?



Travis

Microserv



Mike Hammett wrote:



208.111.168.6





-

Mike Hammett

Intelligent Computing Solutions

http://www.ics-il.com









From: Travis Johnson

Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2008 10:40 AM

To: WISPA General List

Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information





Do you happen to have the IP blocks it was coming from?



Travis

Microserv



Mike Hammett wrote:

Since no one answered, I got NetFlix myself and added it to my XBox...  the

bandwidth is coming from Limelight Networks.



Not quite as open as Youtube's "Yes, we will peer with you.", but they have

an open peering policy  that'll happen when you're generating 1000 Gbps

of traffic.





-

Mike Hammett

Intelligent Computing Solutions

http://www.ics-il.com







--

From: "Mike Hammett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]><mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 11:04 AM

To: "WISPA General List" <mailto:wireless@wispa.org>

Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information



  Can anyone provide the ASN the streams come from?





-

Mike Hammett

Intelligent Computing Solutions

http://www.ics-il.com







--

From: "Dennis Burgess" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]><mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2008 3:42 PM

To: "WISPA General List" <mailto:wireless@wispa.org>

Subject: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information



In case you did not know, recently NetFlix and Microsoft teamed up to

provide video on-demand services to all of the XBox 360 users.  Not only

can you start one of 12,000 videos in a matter of seconds on your

computer, but you can also do this right on your Xbox 360, bringing it

mainstream for many who have never used it.  Not to mention the super

low cost of basically $9 bucks a month!



I have been using it for a few weeks and since it came out on the XBox

360 last Wednesday, I have streamed GIGs.  Soon as you hear, gigs, you

may be interested to know what is required to maintain a high-end video

stream.  So, I put together some numbers for everyone, in case you are

interested in how much bandwidth this service uses!   A



You can see my data at http://www.linktechs.net/netflix.asp.   Feel free

to shoot me a e-mail off-list if you have any questions!



--

* Dennis Burgess, CCNA, A+, Mikrotik Certified Trainer

Link Technologies, Inc -- Mikrotik & WISP Support Services*

314-735-0270

http://www.linktechs.net

<http://www.linktechs.net/><http://www.linktechs.net/>



*/ Link Technologies, Inc is offering LIVE Mikrotik On-Line Training

<http://www.linktechs.net/onlinetraining.asp><http://www.linktechs.net/onlinetraining.asp>/*









WISPA Wants You! Join today!

http://signup.wispa.org/





WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org<mailto:wireless@wispa.org>



Subscribe/Unsubscribe:

http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless



Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/



  


WISPA Wants You! Join today!

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Subscribe/Unsubscribe:

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Archives: ht

Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information

[Travis Johnson]

Almost all is port 80 and the worst part is this rule comes after
my "all-p2p" rule, so I'm missing at least that much in torrent
traffic. :(

Travis
Microserv

Jason Hodge wrote:

  Sounds like bit torrent. What ports is the traffic on?

J Hodge
630.445.3779

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson
Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2008 11:43 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information

Hi,

So I grabbed all of Limelight Networks' IP blocks and created a queue on
my MT core router. I am currently seeing about 8-9Mbps upload with only
a 500kbps download. Any idea why I would be seeing so much "upload"
traffic (coming from 10-15 different customers)?

Travis
Microserv

Mike Hammett wrote:
  
  
208.111.168.6


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com




From: Travis Johnson
Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2008 10:40 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information


Do you happen to have the IP blocks it was coming from?

Travis
Microserv

Mike Hammett wrote:
Since no one answered, I got NetFlix myself and added it to my XBox...  the
bandwidth is coming from Limelight Networks.

Not quite as open as Youtube's "Yes, we will peer with you.", but they have
an open peering policy  that'll happen when you're generating 1000 Gbps
of traffic.


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com



--
From: "Mike Hammett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 11:04 AM
To: "WISPA General List" 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information

  Can anyone provide the ASN the streams come from?


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com



--
From: "Dennis Burgess" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2008 3:42 PM
To: "WISPA General List" 
Subject: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information

In case you did not know, recently NetFlix and Microsoft teamed up to
provide video on-demand services to all of the XBox 360 users.  Not only
can you start one of 12,000 videos in a matter of seconds on your
computer, but you can also do this right on your Xbox 360, bringing it
mainstream for many who have never used it.  Not to mention the super
low cost of basically $9 bucks a month!

I have been using it for a few weeks and since it came out on the XBox
360 last Wednesday, I have streamed GIGs.  Soon as you hear, gigs, you
may be interested to know what is required to maintain a high-end video
stream.  So, I put together some numbers for everyone, in case you are
interested in how much bandwidth this service uses!   A

You can see my data at http://www.linktechs.net/netflix.asp.   Feel free
to shoot me a e-mail off-list if you have any questions!

--
* Dennis Burgess, CCNA, A+, Mikrotik Certified Trainer
Link Technologies, Inc -- Mikrotik & WISP Support Services*
314-735-0270
http://www.linktechs.net


*/ Link Technologies, Inc is offering LIVE Mikrotik On-Line Training
/*




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--

Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information

[Jason Hodge]

Sounds like bit torrent. What ports is the traffic on?

J Hodge
630.445.3779

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson
Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2008 11:43 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information

Hi,

So I grabbed all of Limelight Networks' IP blocks and created a queue on
my MT core router. I am currently seeing about 8-9Mbps upload with only
a 500kbps download. Any idea why I would be seeing so much "upload"
traffic (coming from 10-15 different customers)?

Travis
Microserv

Mike Hammett wrote:
> 208.111.168.6
>
>
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions
> http://www.ics-il.com
>
>
>
>
> From: Travis Johnson
> Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2008 10:40 AM
> To: WISPA General List
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
>
>
> Do you happen to have the IP blocks it was coming from?
>
> Travis
> Microserv
>
> Mike Hammett wrote:
> Since no one answered, I got NetFlix myself and added it to my XBox...  the
> bandwidth is coming from Limelight Networks.
>
> Not quite as open as Youtube's "Yes, we will peer with you.", but they have
> an open peering policy  that'll happen when you're generating 1000 Gbps
> of traffic.
>
>
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions
> http://www.ics-il.com
>
>
>
> ------------------
> From: "Mike Hammett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 11:04 AM
> To: "WISPA General List" 
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
>
>   Can anyone provide the ASN the streams come from?
>
>
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions
> http://www.ics-il.com
>
>
>
> --
> From: "Dennis Burgess" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2008 3:42 PM
> To: "WISPA General List" 
> Subject: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
>
> In case you did not know, recently NetFlix and Microsoft teamed up to
> provide video on-demand services to all of the XBox 360 users.  Not only
> can you start one of 12,000 videos in a matter of seconds on your
> computer, but you can also do this right on your Xbox 360, bringing it
> mainstream for many who have never used it.  Not to mention the super
> low cost of basically $9 bucks a month!
>
> I have been using it for a few weeks and since it came out on the XBox
> 360 last Wednesday, I have streamed GIGs.  Soon as you hear, gigs, you
> may be interested to know what is required to maintain a high-end video
> stream.  So, I put together some numbers for everyone, in case you are
> interested in how much bandwidth this service uses!   A
>
> You can see my data at http://www.linktechs.net/netflix.asp.   Feel free
> to shoot me a e-mail off-list if you have any questions!
>
> --
> * Dennis Burgess, CCNA, A+, Mikrotik Certified Trainer
> Link Technologies, Inc -- Mikrotik & WISP Support Services*
> 314-735-0270
> http://www.linktechs.net
> <http://www.linktechs.net/>
>
> */ Link Technologies, Inc is offering LIVE Mikrotik On-Line Training
> <http://www.linktechs.net/onlinetraining.asp>/*
>
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> 
>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>
>   
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> 
>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
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> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
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>

Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information

[Travis Johnson]

Hi,

So I grabbed all of Limelight Networks' IP blocks and created a queue on 
my MT core router. I am currently seeing about 8-9Mbps upload with only 
a 500kbps download. Any idea why I would be seeing so much "upload" 
traffic (coming from 10-15 different customers)?

Travis
Microserv

Mike Hammett wrote:
> 208.111.168.6
>
>
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions
> http://www.ics-il.com
>
>
>
>
> From: Travis Johnson 
> Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2008 10:40 AM
> To: WISPA General List 
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
>
>
> Do you happen to have the IP blocks it was coming from?
>
> Travis
> Microserv
>
> Mike Hammett wrote: 
> Since no one answered, I got NetFlix myself and added it to my XBox...  the 
> bandwidth is coming from Limelight Networks.
>
> Not quite as open as Youtube's "Yes, we will peer with you.", but they have 
> an open peering policy  that'll happen when you're generating 1000 Gbps 
> of traffic.
>
>
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions
> http://www.ics-il.com
>
>
>
> ------------------
> From: "Mike Hammett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 11:04 AM
> To: "WISPA General List" 
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
>
>   Can anyone provide the ASN the streams come from?
>
>
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions
> http://www.ics-il.com
>
>
>
> --
> From: "Dennis Burgess" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2008 3:42 PM
> To: "WISPA General List" 
> Subject: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
>
> In case you did not know, recently NetFlix and Microsoft teamed up to
> provide video on-demand services to all of the XBox 360 users.  Not only
> can you start one of 12,000 videos in a matter of seconds on your
> computer, but you can also do this right on your Xbox 360, bringing it
> mainstream for many who have never used it.  Not to mention the super
> low cost of basically $9 bucks a month!
>
> I have been using it for a few weeks and since it came out on the XBox
> 360 last Wednesday, I have streamed GIGs.  Soon as you hear, gigs, you
> may be interested to know what is required to maintain a high-end video
> stream.  So, I put together some numbers for everyone, in case you are
> interested in how much bandwidth this service uses!   A
>
> You can see my data at http://www.linktechs.net/netflix.asp.   Feel free
> to shoot me a e-mail off-list if you have any questions!
>
> --
> * Dennis Burgess, CCNA, A+, Mikrotik Certified Trainer
> Link Technologies, Inc -- Mikrotik & WISP Support Services*
> 314-735-0270
> http://www.linktechs.net
> <http://www.linktechs.net/>
>
> */ Link Technologies, Inc is offering LIVE Mikrotik On-Line Training
> <http://www.linktechs.net/onlinetraining.asp>/*
>
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> 
>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>
>   
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
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> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
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>
>   
>
> 
>
>
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> --

Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information

[Mike Hammett]

208.111.168.6


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com




From: Travis Johnson 
Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2008 10:40 AM
To: WISPA General List 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information


Do you happen to have the IP blocks it was coming from?

Travis
Microserv

Mike Hammett wrote: 
Since no one answered, I got NetFlix myself and added it to my XBox...  the 
bandwidth is coming from Limelight Networks.

Not quite as open as Youtube's "Yes, we will peer with you.", but they have 
an open peering policy  that'll happen when you're generating 1000 Gbps 
of traffic.


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com



--
From: "Mike Hammett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 11:04 AM
To: "WISPA General List" 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information

  Can anyone provide the ASN the streams come from?


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com



--
From: "Dennis Burgess" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2008 3:42 PM
To: "WISPA General List" 
Subject: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information

In case you did not know, recently NetFlix and Microsoft teamed up to
provide video on-demand services to all of the XBox 360 users.  Not only
can you start one of 12,000 videos in a matter of seconds on your
computer, but you can also do this right on your Xbox 360, bringing it
mainstream for many who have never used it.  Not to mention the super
low cost of basically $9 bucks a month!

I have been using it for a few weeks and since it came out on the XBox
360 last Wednesday, I have streamed GIGs.  Soon as you hear, gigs, you
may be interested to know what is required to maintain a high-end video
stream.  So, I put together some numbers for everyone, in case you are
interested in how much bandwidth this service uses!   A

You can see my data at http://www.linktechs.net/netflix.asp.   Feel free
to shoot me a e-mail off-list if you have any questions!

--
* Dennis Burgess, CCNA, A+, Mikrotik Certified Trainer
Link Technologies, Inc -- Mikrotik & WISP Support Services*
314-735-0270
http://www.linktechs.net
<http://www.linktechs.net/>

*/ Link Technologies, Inc is offering LIVE Mikrotik On-Line Training
<http://www.linktechs.net/onlinetraining.asp>/*




WISPA Wants You! Join today!
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Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information

[Michael Baird]

I'm not sure they have a determined peering policy yet. I've had 
discussions with them in this area about an Akamai type relationship, 
which isn't typical for them.

Regards
Michael Baird
> Since no one answered, I got NetFlix myself and added it to my XBox...  the 
> bandwidth is coming from Limelight Networks.
>
> Not quite as open as Youtube's "Yes, we will peer with you.", but they have 
> an open peering policy  that'll happen when you're generating 1000 Gbps 
> of traffic.
>
>
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions
> http://www.ics-il.com
>
>
>
> --
> From: "Mike Hammett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 11:04 AM
> To: "WISPA General List" 
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
>
>   
>> Can anyone provide the ASN the streams come from?
>>
>>
>> -
>> Mike Hammett
>> Intelligent Computing Solutions
>> http://www.ics-il.com
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> From: "Dennis Burgess" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2008 3:42 PM
>> To: "WISPA General List" 
>> Subject: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
>>
>> 
>>> In case you did not know, recently NetFlix and Microsoft teamed up to
>>> provide video on-demand services to all of the XBox 360 users.  Not only
>>> can you start one of 12,000 videos in a matter of seconds on your
>>> computer, but you can also do this right on your Xbox 360, bringing it
>>> mainstream for many who have never used it.  Not to mention the super
>>> low cost of basically $9 bucks a month!
>>>
>>> I have been using it for a few weeks and since it came out on the XBox
>>> 360 last Wednesday, I have streamed GIGs.  Soon as you hear, gigs, you
>>> may be interested to know what is required to maintain a high-end video
>>> stream.  So, I put together some numbers for everyone, in case you are
>>> interested in how much bandwidth this service uses!   A
>>>
>>> You can see my data at http://www.linktechs.net/netflix.asp.   Feel free
>>> to shoot me a e-mail off-list if you have any questions!
>>>
>>> --
>>> * Dennis Burgess, CCNA, A+, Mikrotik Certified Trainer
>>> Link Technologies, Inc -- Mikrotik & WISP Support Services*
>>> 314-735-0270
>>> http://www.linktechs.net
>>> <http://www.linktechs.net/>
>>>
>>> */ Link Technologies, Inc is offering LIVE Mikrotik On-Line Training
>>> <http://www.linktechs.net/onlinetraining.asp>/*
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 
>>> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>>> http://signup.wispa.org/
>>> 
>>>
>>> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>>>
>>> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
>>> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>>>
>>> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>>>
>>>   
>> 
>> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>> http://signup.wispa.org/
>> 
>>
>> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>>
>> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
>> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>>
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>>
>> 
>
>
> 
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>  
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Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information

[Travis Johnson]

Do you happen to have the IP blocks it was coming from?

Travis
Microserv

Mike Hammett wrote:

  Since no one answered, I got NetFlix myself and added it to my XBox...  the 
bandwidth is coming from Limelight Networks.

Not quite as open as Youtube's "Yes, we will peer with you.", but they have 
an open peering policy  that'll happen when you're generating 1000 Gbps 
of traffic.


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com



--
From: "Mike Hammett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 11:04 AM
To: "WISPA General List" 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information

  
  
Can anyone provide the ASN the streams come from?


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com



--
From: "Dennis Burgess" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2008 3:42 PM
To: "WISPA General List" 
Subject: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information



  In case you did not know, recently NetFlix and Microsoft teamed up to
provide video on-demand services to all of the XBox 360 users.  Not only
can you start one of 12,000 videos in a matter of seconds on your
computer, but you can also do this right on your Xbox 360, bringing it
mainstream for many who have never used it.  Not to mention the super
low cost of basically $9 bucks a month!

I have been using it for a few weeks and since it came out on the XBox
360 last Wednesday, I have streamed GIGs.  Soon as you hear, gigs, you
may be interested to know what is required to maintain a high-end video
stream.  So, I put together some numbers for everyone, in case you are
interested in how much bandwidth this service uses!   A

You can see my data at http://www.linktechs.net/netflix.asp.   Feel free
to shoot me a e-mail off-list if you have any questions!

--
* Dennis Burgess, CCNA, A+, Mikrotik Certified Trainer
Link Technologies, Inc -- Mikrotik & WISP Support Services*
314-735-0270
http://www.linktechs.net


*/ Link Technologies, Inc is offering LIVE Mikrotik On-Line Training
/*




WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/


WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

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Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information

[Mike Hammett]

Since no one answered, I got NetFlix myself and added it to my XBox...  the 
bandwidth is coming from Limelight Networks.

Not quite as open as Youtube's "Yes, we will peer with you.", but they have 
an open peering policy  that'll happen when you're generating 1000 Gbps 
of traffic.


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com



--
From: "Mike Hammett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 11:04 AM
To: "WISPA General List" 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information

> Can anyone provide the ASN the streams come from?
>
>
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions
> http://www.ics-il.com
>
>
>
> --
> From: "Dennis Burgess" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2008 3:42 PM
> To: "WISPA General List" 
> Subject: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
>
>> In case you did not know, recently NetFlix and Microsoft teamed up to
>> provide video on-demand services to all of the XBox 360 users.  Not only
>> can you start one of 12,000 videos in a matter of seconds on your
>> computer, but you can also do this right on your Xbox 360, bringing it
>> mainstream for many who have never used it.  Not to mention the super
>> low cost of basically $9 bucks a month!
>>
>> I have been using it for a few weeks and since it came out on the XBox
>> 360 last Wednesday, I have streamed GIGs.  Soon as you hear, gigs, you
>> may be interested to know what is required to maintain a high-end video
>> stream.  So, I put together some numbers for everyone, in case you are
>> interested in how much bandwidth this service uses!   A
>>
>> You can see my data at http://www.linktechs.net/netflix.asp.   Feel free
>> to shoot me a e-mail off-list if you have any questions!
>>
>> --
>> * Dennis Burgess, CCNA, A+, Mikrotik Certified Trainer
>> Link Technologies, Inc -- Mikrotik & WISP Support Services*
>> 314-735-0270
>> http://www.linktechs.net
>> <http://www.linktechs.net/>
>>
>> */ Link Technologies, Inc is offering LIVE Mikrotik On-Line Training
>> <http://www.linktechs.net/onlinetraining.asp>/*
>>
>>
>>
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Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information

[Dennis Burgess - LinkTechs]

2.2 MEG +   Starting getting 3-4meg easy.

--
* Dennis Burgess, CCNA, A+, Mikrotik Certified Trainer
Link Technologies, Inc -- Mikrotik & WISP Support Services*
314-735-0270
http://www.linktechs.net 

*/ Link Technologies, Inc is offering LIVE Mikrotik On-Line Training 
/*



Matt wrote:
>> Been watching it for a good while now.  Doing a number of TV Episodes,
>> and no issues on a 40 Inch LCD.   Near DVD quality what it says at the
>> highest resolution!  Don't have ANY issues with it as of yet!
>> 
>
> What data rate are you seeing when streaming?
>
> Matt
>
>
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Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information

[Matt]

> Been watching it for a good while now.  Doing a number of TV Episodes,
> and no issues on a 40 Inch LCD.   Near DVD quality what it says at the
> highest resolution!  Don't have ANY issues with it as of yet!

What data rate are you seeing when streaming?

Matt



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Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information

[Dennis Burgess - LinkTechs]

Been watching it for a good while now.  Doing a number of TV Episodes, 
and no issues on a 40 Inch LCD.   Near DVD quality what it says at the 
highest resolution!  Don't have ANY issues with it as of yet! 

--
* Dennis Burgess, CCNA, A+, Mikrotik Certified Trainer
Link Technologies, Inc -- Mikrotik & WISP Support Services*
314-735-0270
http://www.linktechs.net <http://www.linktechs.net/>

*/ Link Technologies, Inc is offering LIVE Mikrotik On-Line Training 
<http://www.linktechs.net/onlinetraining.asp>/*



Josh Luthman wrote:
> I created a simple queue of 2megs for my Xbox and then watched (what I could
> tolerate) of a Jackass movie, Billy Madison and Eraser (all years old) and
> they looked just fine.
>
> Josh Luthman
> Office: 937-552-2340
> Direct: 937-552-2343
> 1100 Wayne St
> Suite 1337
> Troy, OH 45373
>
> Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly.
> --- Henry Spencer
>
>
> On Fri, Nov 28, 2008 at 12:32 PM, Brad Belton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>   
>> It could be the movie.  I have noticed some movies look much worse than
>> others even at the highest bandwidth rating.  I downloaded Fred Claus and
>> it
>> came down at about 17Mbps for the first few minutes and then stabilized
>> with
>> 4-5Mbps bursts of traffic every couple minutes through the movie.  The
>> picture on my 50" plasma was as good as anything else I've watched on it.
>>
>> I then downloaded something else (don't remember what it was) and the
>> picture was much worse.
>>
>> YMMV
>>
>>
>> Brad
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-
>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
>> Behalf Of Matt
>> Sent: Friday, November 28, 2008 11:23 AM
>> To: WISPA General List
>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
>>
>> 
>>> In case you did not know, recently NetFlix and Microsoft teamed up to
>>> provide video on-demand services to all of the XBox 360 users.  Not only
>>> can you start one of 12,000 videos in a matter of seconds on your
>>> computer, but you can also do this right on your Xbox 360, bringing it
>>> mainstream for many who have never used it.  Not to mention the super
>>> low cost of basically $9 bucks a month!
>>>   
>> Went out and bought me an XBOX 360 elite couple days ago just to check
>> this out.  Shame since I already have a PS3 I am very happy with and
>> it has bluray.  Plus, online play is free with PS3.  Anyway, I already
>> had a Netflix account so I linked it with my new Live account.  On a
>> 2mbps connection with a 50" HDTV it looks very bad.  Regular DVD's are
>> WAY better.  I did not take the time to try higher bandwidth though I
>> was in a hurry.
>>
>> Matt
>>
>>
>>
>> 
>> 
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Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information

[Josh Luthman]

I created a simple queue of 2megs for my Xbox and then watched (what I could
tolerate) of a Jackass movie, Billy Madison and Eraser (all years old) and
they looked just fine.

Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly.
--- Henry Spencer


On Fri, Nov 28, 2008 at 12:32 PM, Brad Belton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> It could be the movie.  I have noticed some movies look much worse than
> others even at the highest bandwidth rating.  I downloaded Fred Claus and
> it
> came down at about 17Mbps for the first few minutes and then stabilized
> with
> 4-5Mbps bursts of traffic every couple minutes through the movie.  The
> picture on my 50" plasma was as good as anything else I've watched on it.
>
> I then downloaded something else (don't remember what it was) and the
> picture was much worse.
>
> YMMV
>
>
> Brad
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Matt
> Sent: Friday, November 28, 2008 11:23 AM
> To: WISPA General List
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
>
> > In case you did not know, recently NetFlix and Microsoft teamed up to
> > provide video on-demand services to all of the XBox 360 users.  Not only
> > can you start one of 12,000 videos in a matter of seconds on your
> > computer, but you can also do this right on your Xbox 360, bringing it
> > mainstream for many who have never used it.  Not to mention the super
> > low cost of basically $9 bucks a month!
>
> Went out and bought me an XBOX 360 elite couple days ago just to check
> this out.  Shame since I already have a PS3 I am very happy with and
> it has bluray.  Plus, online play is free with PS3.  Anyway, I already
> had a Netflix account so I linked it with my new Live account.  On a
> 2mbps connection with a 50" HDTV it looks very bad.  Regular DVD's are
> WAY better.  I did not take the time to try higher bandwidth though I
> was in a hurry.
>
> Matt
>
>
>
> 
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
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Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information

[Brad Belton]

It could be the movie.  I have noticed some movies look much worse than
others even at the highest bandwidth rating.  I downloaded Fred Claus and it
came down at about 17Mbps for the first few minutes and then stabilized with
4-5Mbps bursts of traffic every couple minutes through the movie.  The
picture on my 50" plasma was as good as anything else I've watched on it.

I then downloaded something else (don't remember what it was) and the
picture was much worse.

YMMV


Brad


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Matt
Sent: Friday, November 28, 2008 11:23 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information

> In case you did not know, recently NetFlix and Microsoft teamed up to
> provide video on-demand services to all of the XBox 360 users.  Not only
> can you start one of 12,000 videos in a matter of seconds on your
> computer, but you can also do this right on your Xbox 360, bringing it
> mainstream for many who have never used it.  Not to mention the super
> low cost of basically $9 bucks a month!

Went out and bought me an XBOX 360 elite couple days ago just to check
this out.  Shame since I already have a PS3 I am very happy with and
it has bluray.  Plus, online play is free with PS3.  Anyway, I already
had a Netflix account so I linked it with my new Live account.  On a
2mbps connection with a 50" HDTV it looks very bad.  Regular DVD's are
WAY better.  I did not take the time to try higher bandwidth though I
was in a hurry.

Matt




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Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information

[Matt]

> Sony 40" Bravia S and the console is connected via HDMI.  Netlfix looks good
> to me.  Sony even confirmed I have a defective TV (2 days old) and is
> getting someone to repair it.

2mbps connection or what?

Matt



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Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information

[Josh Luthman]

Sony 40" Bravia S and the console is connected via HDMI.  Netlfix looks good
to me.  Sony even confirmed I have a defective TV (2 days old) and is
getting someone to repair it.

Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly.
--- Henry Spencer


On Fri, Nov 28, 2008 at 12:22 PM, Matt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> > In case you did not know, recently NetFlix and Microsoft teamed up to
> > provide video on-demand services to all of the XBox 360 users.  Not only
> > can you start one of 12,000 videos in a matter of seconds on your
> > computer, but you can also do this right on your Xbox 360, bringing it
> > mainstream for many who have never used it.  Not to mention the super
> > low cost of basically $9 bucks a month!
>
> Went out and bought me an XBOX 360 elite couple days ago just to check
> this out.  Shame since I already have a PS3 I am very happy with and
> it has bluray.  Plus, online play is free with PS3.  Anyway, I already
> had a Netflix account so I linked it with my new Live account.  On a
> 2mbps connection with a 50" HDTV it looks very bad.  Regular DVD's are
> WAY better.  I did not take the time to try higher bandwidth though I
> was in a hurry.
>
> Matt
>
>
>
> 
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Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information

[Matt]

> In case you did not know, recently NetFlix and Microsoft teamed up to
> provide video on-demand services to all of the XBox 360 users.  Not only
> can you start one of 12,000 videos in a matter of seconds on your
> computer, but you can also do this right on your Xbox 360, bringing it
> mainstream for many who have never used it.  Not to mention the super
> low cost of basically $9 bucks a month!

Went out and bought me an XBOX 360 elite couple days ago just to check
this out.  Shame since I already have a PS3 I am very happy with and
it has bluray.  Plus, online play is free with PS3.  Anyway, I already
had a Netflix account so I linked it with my new Live account.  On a
2mbps connection with a 50" HDTV it looks very bad.  Regular DVD's are
WAY better.  I did not take the time to try higher bandwidth though I
was in a hurry.

Matt



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Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information

[Travis Johnson]

Hi,

When using Nstreme, here are the "fastest" speeds you can get:

5mhz channel size = 7Mbps
10mhz channel size = 15Mbps
20mhz channel size = 30Mbps
40mhz channel size = 60Mbps

I have successfully achieved all these speeds on actual, real point to
point links.

Travis
Microserv

Mike Hammett wrote:

  In the latest revisions, have the N-Streme problems of the past been 
resolved?  If so, enabling that almost doubles throughput.


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com



--
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, November 28, 2008 8:10 AM
To: "WISPA General List" 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information

  
  
Problem with 900 is the lack of spectrum. Most fast equipment uses 10 to 
20MHz. In 900 there is only a total of 26MHz. The fastest solution on the 
market is to use an XR9 card in 5 or 10MHz mode. 5MHz in a MikroTik unit 
can give you 5-6Mbit effective throughput without Nstream. Canopy is 
second fastest but uses 8MHz bandwith if memory serves me right. Another 
problem is the noise pollution in 900 and the best to that problem is 
hands down canopy.

Don't expect anything blazing fast in 900MHz that will be affordable any 
time in the near future.

/Eje
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

-Original Message-
From: "Adam Goodman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2008 23:31:43
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information


I oversubscribe 10/1. I try to keep it down to 30-35 subs per AP
(mostly 900MHz=3mbps radios). Lets say I have only 2 streaming subs at
any given time:

2x 2mbps = 4mbps. plus other regular traffic. The demand is only going
to go up with time. Seems to me we need faster 900MHz radios if we
want to stay in busines, and if Moto wants to stay in the 900 market.



On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 11:14 PM, Chuck McCown - 3 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:


  I deliver 100 mbps wholesale to many rural areas for $3-4K/month type of
figure.
That includes transport.
And stastically, you can oversub it, even with streaming content.
You are never going to have all 20 streaming movies all at the same time.
I am willing to take the chance.  That is how we are building out our
network.

- Original Message -
From: "Butch Evans" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 9:06 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information


  
  
On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, Chuck McCown - 3 wrote:



  I think the canopy 450 will do something like 30 down and 10 up.
So that could give you 20 simultaneously which statistically could
work if you had 50-100 on an AP.
  

Ok, so you have 20 people on one AP pulling 2Meg each which is 40
meg stream.  If you have just 3 towers like that, you will have
120Meg streaming.  At $50/sub, you have 60*50 = $3k/month in
revenue for those that are using that 120Meg.  You'd NEVER get
120Meg delivered to rural America (at least not in MY area) for that
kind of money.  A DS3 here with 45Meg would be around $4500/month
after you include the transport.

What am I missing?  Canopy isn't the answer...the question isn't
JUST the last mile, but the business model overall.  The problem CAN
be solved at the last mile, but when people are demanding streaming
services they will have to understand that $50 commodity service
isn't the answer.  I'd be happy to deliver ANYONE with a dedicated
service level of 2,3 even 10M, but it won't be $50/month.

--

* Butch Evans * Professional Network Consultation*
* http://www.butchevans.com/ * Network Engineering*
* http://www.wispa.org/ * WISPA Board Member*
* http://blog.butchevans.com/ * Wired or Wireless Networks*




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Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information

[Mike Hammett]

In the latest revisions, have the N-Streme problems of the past been 
resolved?  If so, enabling that almost doubles throughput.


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com



--
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, November 28, 2008 8:10 AM
To: "WISPA General List" 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information

> Problem with 900 is the lack of spectrum. Most fast equipment uses 10 to 
> 20MHz. In 900 there is only a total of 26MHz. The fastest solution on the 
> market is to use an XR9 card in 5 or 10MHz mode. 5MHz in a MikroTik unit 
> can give you 5-6Mbit effective throughput without Nstream. Canopy is 
> second fastest but uses 8MHz bandwith if memory serves me right. Another 
> problem is the noise pollution in 900 and the best to that problem is 
> hands down canopy.
>
> Don't expect anything blazing fast in 900MHz that will be affordable any 
> time in the near future.
>
> /Eje
> Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile
>
> -Original Message-
> From: "Adam Goodman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
> Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2008 23:31:43
> To: WISPA General List
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
>
>
> I oversubscribe 10/1. I try to keep it down to 30-35 subs per AP
> (mostly 900MHz=3mbps radios). Lets say I have only 2 streaming subs at
> any given time:
>
> 2x 2mbps = 4mbps. plus other regular traffic. The demand is only going
> to go up with time. Seems to me we need faster 900MHz radios if we
> want to stay in busines, and if Moto wants to stay in the 900 market.
>
>
>
> On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 11:14 PM, Chuck McCown - 3 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> wrote:
>> I deliver 100 mbps wholesale to many rural areas for $3-4K/month type of
>> figure.
>> That includes transport.
>> And stastically, you can oversub it, even with streaming content.
>> You are never going to have all 20 streaming movies all at the same time.
>> I am willing to take the chance.  That is how we are building out our
>> network.
>>
>> - Original Message -
>> From: "Butch Evans" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: "WISPA General List" 
>> Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 9:06 PM
>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
>>
>>
>>> On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, Chuck McCown - 3 wrote:
>>>
>>>>I think the canopy 450 will do something like 30 down and 10 up.
>>>>So that could give you 20 simultaneously which statistically could
>>>>work if you had 50-100 on an AP.
>>>
>>> Ok, so you have 20 people on one AP pulling 2Meg each which is 40
>>> meg stream.  If you have just 3 towers like that, you will have
>>> 120Meg streaming.  At $50/sub, you have 60*50 = $3k/month in
>>> revenue for those that are using that 120Meg.  You'd NEVER get
>>> 120Meg delivered to rural America (at least not in MY area) for that
>>> kind of money.  A DS3 here with 45Meg would be around $4500/month
>>> after you include the transport.
>>>
>>> What am I missing?  Canopy isn't the answer...the question isn't
>>> JUST the last mile, but the business model overall.  The problem CAN
>>> be solved at the last mile, but when people are demanding streaming
>>> services they will have to understand that $50 commodity service
>>> isn't the answer.  I'd be happy to deliver ANYONE with a dedicated
>>> service level of 2,3 even 10M, but it won't be $50/month.
>>>
>>> --
>>> 
>>> * Butch Evans * Professional Network Consultation*
>>> * http://www.butchevans.com/ * Network Engineering*
>>> * http://www.wispa.org/ * WISPA Board Member*
>>> * http://blog.butchevans.com/ * Wired or Wireless Networks*
>>> 
>>>
>>>
>>> 
>>> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>>> http://signup.wispa.org/
>>> 
>>>
>>> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>>>
>>> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
>>> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>>>
>>> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> 

Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information

[eje]

Problem with 900 is the lack of spectrum. Most fast equipment uses 10 to 20MHz. 
In 900 there is only a total of 26MHz. The fastest solution on the market is to 
use an XR9 card in 5 or 10MHz mode. 5MHz in a MikroTik unit can give you 
5-6Mbit effective throughput without Nstream. Canopy is second fastest but uses 
8MHz bandwith if memory serves me right. Another problem is the noise pollution 
in 900 and the best to that problem is hands down canopy. 

Don't expect anything blazing fast in 900MHz that will be affordable any time 
in the near future. 

/Eje
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

-Original Message-
From: "Adam Goodman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2008 23:31:43 
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information


I oversubscribe 10/1. I try to keep it down to 30-35 subs per AP
(mostly 900MHz=3mbps radios). Lets say I have only 2 streaming subs at
any given time:

2x 2mbps = 4mbps. plus other regular traffic. The demand is only going
to go up with time. Seems to me we need faster 900MHz radios if we
want to stay in busines, and if Moto wants to stay in the 900 market.



On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 11:14 PM, Chuck McCown - 3 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I deliver 100 mbps wholesale to many rural areas for $3-4K/month type of
> figure.
> That includes transport.
> And stastically, you can oversub it, even with streaming content.
> You are never going to have all 20 streaming movies all at the same time.
> I am willing to take the chance.  That is how we are building out our
> network.
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Butch Evans" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "WISPA General List" 
> Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 9:06 PM
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
>
>
>> On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, Chuck McCown - 3 wrote:
>>
>>>I think the canopy 450 will do something like 30 down and 10 up.
>>>So that could give you 20 simultaneously which statistically could
>>>work if you had 50-100 on an AP.
>>
>> Ok, so you have 20 people on one AP pulling 2Meg each which is 40
>> meg stream.  If you have just 3 towers like that, you will have
>> 120Meg streaming.  At $50/sub, you have 60*50 = $3k/month in
>> revenue for those that are using that 120Meg.  You'd NEVER get
>> 120Meg delivered to rural America (at least not in MY area) for that
>> kind of money.  A DS3 here with 45Meg would be around $4500/month
>> after you include the transport.
>>
>> What am I missing?  Canopy isn't the answer...the question isn't
>> JUST the last mile, but the business model overall.  The problem CAN
>> be solved at the last mile, but when people are demanding streaming
>> services they will have to understand that $50 commodity service
>> isn't the answer.  I'd be happy to deliver ANYONE with a dedicated
>> service level of 2,3 even 10M, but it won't be $50/month.
>>
>> --
>> 
>> * Butch Evans * Professional Network Consultation*
>> * http://www.butchevans.com/ * Network Engineering*
>> * http://www.wispa.org/ * WISPA Board Member*
>> * http://blog.butchevans.com/ * Wired or Wireless Networks*
>> 
>>
>>
>> 
>> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>> http://signup.wispa.org/
>> 
>>
>> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>>
>> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
>> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>>
>> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>>
>
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> 
>
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>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
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>
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Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information

[Adam Goodman]

I oversubscribe 10/1. I try to keep it down to 30-35 subs per AP
(mostly 900MHz=3mbps radios). Lets say I have only 2 streaming subs at
any given time:

2x 2mbps = 4mbps. plus other regular traffic. The demand is only going
to go up with time. Seems to me we need faster 900MHz radios if we
want to stay in busines, and if Moto wants to stay in the 900 market.



On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 11:14 PM, Chuck McCown - 3 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I deliver 100 mbps wholesale to many rural areas for $3-4K/month type of
> figure.
> That includes transport.
> And stastically, you can oversub it, even with streaming content.
> You are never going to have all 20 streaming movies all at the same time.
> I am willing to take the chance.  That is how we are building out our
> network.
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Butch Evans" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "WISPA General List" 
> Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 9:06 PM
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
>
>
>> On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, Chuck McCown - 3 wrote:
>>
>>>I think the canopy 450 will do something like 30 down and 10 up.
>>>So that could give you 20 simultaneously which statistically could
>>>work if you had 50-100 on an AP.
>>
>> Ok, so you have 20 people on one AP pulling 2Meg each which is 40
>> meg stream.  If you have just 3 towers like that, you will have
>> 120Meg streaming.  At $50/sub, you have 60*50 = $3k/month in
>> revenue for those that are using that 120Meg.  You'd NEVER get
>> 120Meg delivered to rural America (at least not in MY area) for that
>> kind of money.  A DS3 here with 45Meg would be around $4500/month
>> after you include the transport.
>>
>> What am I missing?  Canopy isn't the answer...the question isn't
>> JUST the last mile, but the business model overall.  The problem CAN
>> be solved at the last mile, but when people are demanding streaming
>> services they will have to understand that $50 commodity service
>> isn't the answer.  I'd be happy to deliver ANYONE with a dedicated
>> service level of 2,3 even 10M, but it won't be $50/month.
>>
>> --
>> 
>> * Butch Evans * Professional Network Consultation*
>> * http://www.butchevans.com/ * Network Engineering*
>> * http://www.wispa.org/ * WISPA Board Member*
>> * http://blog.butchevans.com/ * Wired or Wireless Networks*
>> 
>>
>>
>> 
>> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>> http://signup.wispa.org/
>> 
>>
>> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>>
>> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
>> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>>
>> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>>
>
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> 
>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>



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Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information

[Marlon K. Schafer]

Per month.

Here's our tracking data.  GREAT software from Brandon Checkaletts (sp???).

radius.odessaoffice.com/iptrack

As you can see from the bottom, our average customer does 2 to 3 gigs per 
month.  Toss out the servers and big business customers and a couple of high 
end resi users and it's much closer to 2 gigs than 3.

It's gone up by a gig in the last 12 to 18 months though.

marlon

  - Original Message - 
  From: support 
  To: WISPA General List 
  Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 9:50 AM
  Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information


  Marlon,

  6 gig per month or 6 gig per day?

  Jason

  Marlon K. Schafer wrote: 
We have always had a per bit plan in place.

Our speeds are as high as 10 meg on wireless and 100 on fiber.

Yet our average user is down at 3 megs.  Well, really below that as my 
tracking mechanism counts the servers and high end business users and it 
really shouldn't do that.

We're still growing nicely and have lost very few customers due to usage 
issues over the years.  Usually they are the ones that I really didn't want 
anyway.  Sell one account and they build their own system that covers the 
entire neighborhood, watch TV online etc.

I really feel for my competitors.  We've certainly run off more than a few 
potential new customers because of our 6 gig limit.  I'd love to see the bw 
and gig numbers for some of the other wisps in my area.  I'll bet it's 
amazingly different.

laters,
marlon

- Original Message - 
From: "Drew Lentz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 11:26 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information


  The point that I was getting at when this thread started about 24 hours 
ago
was about having an all you can eat type service. As it stands right now,
how many ISPs are offering plans of 768k or 1Mbps or 3 Mbps? This is not
going to cut it in the future. This is not going to cut it next year.

I wasn't trying to say "well hell just buy more radios in the same 
frequency
space and put them up on the towers" .. What I am getting at is that 
opening
these subs up and supplying the bandwidth they need is going to have to
become a reality at some point. If the networks that are in place today
cannot satisfy that need, there will be other networks in the future that
WILL be there.

For what they have done with the physics side of it (i.e. Modulation
schemes, channel reuse, beam forming, etc.) technologies exist or are 
being
worked on to milk everything out of that valuable spectrum that we all try
and operate in.

The cars on the bike trail is a perfect example .. Luckily whether its 
3.65
or TVWS or the 700 MHz auctions, that spectrum is becoming available. The
hope is that the operators that are around today see this and position or
align themselves (because yes Charles, the cold reality does hit you 
pretty
quiickly!) to take advantage of this as soon as they can. And that doesn't
mean just for the distribution side of their network. The backhaul, the
routing, the switching, all have to be in place for this to operate
properly.  All too often have a seen pieced together WISPS fail due to bad
switching equipment .. "well heck, this Netgear switch is only $59!!"

Jack, I truly appreciate your perspective on this and I completely
understand the side of it you are coming from. True, the amount of
unlicensed space that is out there currently will not hold a network that
supports as you said "high-throughput, high-reliability, moderate-cost,
non-interfering networks" .. But that is today. With innovation in
communications, as it has been proven time and again, where there's a will
there's a way. Maybe the 5GHz spectrum can't hold what it needs to on its
own, maybe there isnt a modulation scheme for stuffing more bits per hertz
available today .. But that does not mean that multi-frequency equipment 
or
innovation will not exist in the future.

-drew




On 11/25/08 1:01 AM, "Jack Unger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Drew,

As I've mentioned before - wireless "physics" does not allow you to
simply and affordably "build your network" for tomorrow but you do not
yet understand this point. No matter what the customer wants (or
demands) and no matter how much the WISP wants to build a
high-throughput network at a reasonable price, wireless "physics"
(specifically the lack of available spectrum) prevents this. With
limited spectrum (which is what we have today in spite of the arguments
that we have "WiMAX" in 3650 and future "White Space" and "opportunities
to partner with licensed carriers) WISPs can not build high-throughput,
high-reliability, moderate-cost, non-interfering networks that serve a
lot of customers without having access to more spectrum. As you

Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information

[support]

Marlon,

6 gig per month or 6 gig per day?

Jason

Marlon K. Schafer wrote:

  We have always had a per bit plan in place.

Our speeds are as high as 10 meg on wireless and 100 on fiber.

Yet our average user is down at 3 megs.  Well, really below that as my 
tracking mechanism counts the servers and high end business users and it 
really shouldn't do that.

We're still growing nicely and have lost very few customers due to usage 
issues over the years.  Usually they are the ones that I really didn't want 
anyway.  Sell one account and they build their own system that covers the 
entire neighborhood, watch TV online etc.

I really feel for my competitors.  We've certainly run off more than a few 
potential new customers because of our 6 gig limit.  I'd love to see the bw 
and gig numbers for some of the other wisps in my area.  I'll bet it's 
amazingly different.

laters,
marlon

- Original Message - 
From: "Drew Lentz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 11:26 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information


  
  
The point that I was getting at when this thread started about 24 hours 
ago
was about having an all you can eat type service. As it stands right now,
how many ISPs are offering plans of 768k or 1Mbps or 3 Mbps? This is not
going to cut it in the future. This is not going to cut it next year.

I wasn't trying to say "well hell just buy more radios in the same 
frequency
space and put them up on the towers" .. What I am getting at is that 
opening
these subs up and supplying the bandwidth they need is going to have to
become a reality at some point. If the networks that are in place today
cannot satisfy that need, there will be other networks in the future that
WILL be there.

For what they have done with the physics side of it (i.e. Modulation
schemes, channel reuse, beam forming, etc.) technologies exist or are 
being
worked on to milk everything out of that valuable spectrum that we all try
and operate in.

The cars on the bike trail is a perfect example .. Luckily whether its 
3.65
or TVWS or the 700 MHz auctions, that spectrum is becoming available. The
hope is that the operators that are around today see this and position or
align themselves (because yes Charles, the cold reality does hit you 
pretty
quiickly!) to take advantage of this as soon as they can. And that doesn't
mean just for the distribution side of their network. The backhaul, the
routing, the switching, all have to be in place for this to operate
properly.  All too often have a seen pieced together WISPS fail due to bad
switching equipment .. "well heck, this Netgear switch is only $59!!"

Jack, I truly appreciate your perspective on this and I completely
understand the side of it you are coming from. True, the amount of
unlicensed space that is out there currently will not hold a network that
supports as you said "high-throughput, high-reliability, moderate-cost,
non-interfering networks" .. But that is today. With innovation in
communications, as it has been proven time and again, where there's a will
there's a way. Maybe the 5GHz spectrum can't hold what it needs to on its
own, maybe there isnt a modulation scheme for stuffing more bits per hertz
available today .. But that does not mean that multi-frequency equipment 
or
innovation will not exist in the future.

-drew




On 11/25/08 1:01 AM, "Jack Unger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:



  Drew,

As I've mentioned before - wireless "physics" does not allow you to
simply and affordably "build your network" for tomorrow but you do not
yet understand this point. No matter what the customer wants (or
demands) and no matter how much the WISP wants to build a
high-throughput network at a reasonable price, wireless "physics"
(specifically the lack of available spectrum) prevents this. With
limited spectrum (which is what we have today in spite of the arguments
that we have "WiMAX" in 3650 and future "White Space" and "opportunities
to partner with licensed carriers) WISPs can not build high-throughput,
high-reliability, moderate-cost, non-interfering networks that serve a
lot of customers without having access to more spectrum. As you point
out, watching bandwidth needs so you can "know what's coming" and plan
accordingly is important but you can not make physics (that's what
happens in the REAL world) bend to your business and marketing models.
The exact opposite happens - marketing plans fail because the technology
(the real-world PHYSICAL behavior) does not obey the marketing plan.

There's nothing personal here - the PHYSICAL reality calls the shots and
it always wins. For example, it doesn't matter that I want (and General
Motors marketing plan may call for) a safe, five-

Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information

[Marlon K. Schafer]

Wouldn't that be great?  Imagine those new Verizon Blackberry's the use our 
network to transport cell calls (for which Verizon still gets paid!!!) 
paying back to us for the use of the network.

I think that in the end though, data needs to be thought of just like 
electricity, water, gasoline, tires, food, etc.  The more you use the more 
you have to buy.  Safeway doesn't care if you shop for yourself or your 
restaurant.  They don't care if you cook the food or toss it out unused. 
They just want to sell food.

I'm the same with data bits.  I don't care what they are or what you do with 
them as long as you pay for what you actually use.
marlon

- Original Message - 
From: "RickG" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 10:30 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information


>I was charging high usage customers by the meg back in 1997 at the ISP
> I was GM of. The clients didnt mind as long as I capped it so there
> was not a huge surprise bill. I've always said it will end up that way
> just like most utilites. Anything that is "unlimited" is abused.
> Currently, with the ISP I own/operate, I am not charging for over
> usage but I'm close to implementing it. I could care less if the
> abusers go to the competition and beat them up.
> Really though, I think we are missing a piece due to the lack of
> organization. The telcos get fees for terminating calls. We should get
> something like that from Netflix, etc. - oops, wake me back up!
> -RickG
>
> On Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 9:54 AM, Marlon K. Schafer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> wrote:
>> We have always had a per bit plan in place.
>>
>> Our speeds are as high as 10 meg on wireless and 100 on fiber.
>>
>> Yet our average user is down at 3 megs.  Well, really below that as my
>> tracking mechanism counts the servers and high end business users and it
>> really shouldn't do that.
>>
>> We're still growing nicely and have lost very few customers due to usage
>> issues over the years.  Usually they are the ones that I really didn't 
>> want
>> anyway.  Sell one account and they build their own system that covers the
>> entire neighborhood, watch TV online etc.
>>
>> I really feel for my competitors.  We've certainly run off more than a 
>> few
>> potential new customers because of our 6 gig limit.  I'd love to see the 
>> bw
>> and gig numbers for some of the other wisps in my area.  I'll bet it's
>> amazingly different.
>>
>> laters,
>> marlon
>>
>> - Original Message -
>> From: "Drew Lentz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: "WISPA General List" 
>> Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 11:26 PM
>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
>>
>>
>>> The point that I was getting at when this thread started about 24 hours
>>> ago
>>> was about having an all you can eat type service. As it stands right 
>>> now,
>>> how many ISPs are offering plans of 768k or 1Mbps or 3 Mbps? This is not
>>> going to cut it in the future. This is not going to cut it next year.
>>>
>>> I wasn't trying to say "well hell just buy more radios in the same
>>> frequency
>>> space and put them up on the towers" .. What I am getting at is that
>>> opening
>>> these subs up and supplying the bandwidth they need is going to have to
>>> become a reality at some point. If the networks that are in place today
>>> cannot satisfy that need, there will be other networks in the future 
>>> that
>>> WILL be there.
>>>
>>> For what they have done with the physics side of it (i.e. Modulation
>>> schemes, channel reuse, beam forming, etc.) technologies exist or are
>>> being
>>> worked on to milk everything out of that valuable spectrum that we all 
>>> try
>>> and operate in.
>>>
>>> The cars on the bike trail is a perfect example .. Luckily whether its
>>> 3.65
>>> or TVWS or the 700 MHz auctions, that spectrum is becoming available. 
>>> The
>>> hope is that the operators that are around today see this and position 
>>> or
>>> align themselves (because yes Charles, the cold reality does hit you
>>> pretty
>>> quiickly!) to take advantage of this as soon as they can. And that 
>>> doesn't
>>> mean just for the distribution side of their network. The backhaul, the
>>> routing, the switching, all have to be in place for t

Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information

[RickG]

I was charging high usage customers by the meg back in 1997 at the ISP
I was GM of. The clients didnt mind as long as I capped it so there
was not a huge surprise bill. I've always said it will end up that way
just like most utilites. Anything that is "unlimited" is abused.
Currently, with the ISP I own/operate, I am not charging for over
usage but I'm close to implementing it. I could care less if the
abusers go to the competition and beat them up.
Really though, I think we are missing a piece due to the lack of
organization. The telcos get fees for terminating calls. We should get
something like that from Netflix, etc. - oops, wake me back up!
-RickG

On Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 9:54 AM, Marlon K. Schafer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> We have always had a per bit plan in place.
>
> Our speeds are as high as 10 meg on wireless and 100 on fiber.
>
> Yet our average user is down at 3 megs.  Well, really below that as my
> tracking mechanism counts the servers and high end business users and it
> really shouldn't do that.
>
> We're still growing nicely and have lost very few customers due to usage
> issues over the years.  Usually they are the ones that I really didn't want
> anyway.  Sell one account and they build their own system that covers the
> entire neighborhood, watch TV online etc.
>
> I really feel for my competitors.  We've certainly run off more than a few
> potential new customers because of our 6 gig limit.  I'd love to see the bw
> and gig numbers for some of the other wisps in my area.  I'll bet it's
> amazingly different.
>
> laters,
> marlon
>
> - Original Message -----
> From: "Drew Lentz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "WISPA General List" 
> Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 11:26 PM
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
>
>
>> The point that I was getting at when this thread started about 24 hours
>> ago
>> was about having an all you can eat type service. As it stands right now,
>> how many ISPs are offering plans of 768k or 1Mbps or 3 Mbps? This is not
>> going to cut it in the future. This is not going to cut it next year.
>>
>> I wasn't trying to say "well hell just buy more radios in the same
>> frequency
>> space and put them up on the towers" .. What I am getting at is that
>> opening
>> these subs up and supplying the bandwidth they need is going to have to
>> become a reality at some point. If the networks that are in place today
>> cannot satisfy that need, there will be other networks in the future that
>> WILL be there.
>>
>> For what they have done with the physics side of it (i.e. Modulation
>> schemes, channel reuse, beam forming, etc.) technologies exist or are
>> being
>> worked on to milk everything out of that valuable spectrum that we all try
>> and operate in.
>>
>> The cars on the bike trail is a perfect example .. Luckily whether its
>> 3.65
>> or TVWS or the 700 MHz auctions, that spectrum is becoming available. The
>> hope is that the operators that are around today see this and position or
>> align themselves (because yes Charles, the cold reality does hit you
>> pretty
>> quiickly!) to take advantage of this as soon as they can. And that doesn't
>> mean just for the distribution side of their network. The backhaul, the
>> routing, the switching, all have to be in place for this to operate
>> properly.  All too often have a seen pieced together WISPS fail due to bad
>> switching equipment .. "well heck, this Netgear switch is only $59!!"
>>
>> Jack, I truly appreciate your perspective on this and I completely
>> understand the side of it you are coming from. True, the amount of
>> unlicensed space that is out there currently will not hold a network that
>> supports as you said "high-throughput, high-reliability, moderate-cost,
>> non-interfering networks" .. But that is today. With innovation in
>> communications, as it has been proven time and again, where there's a will
>> there's a way. Maybe the 5GHz spectrum can't hold what it needs to on its
>> own, maybe there isnt a modulation scheme for stuffing more bits per hertz
>> available today .. But that does not mean that multi-frequency equipment
>> or
>> innovation will not exist in the future.
>>
>> -drew
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 11/25/08 1:01 AM, "Jack Unger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>>> Drew,
>>>
>>> As I've mentioned before - wireless "physics" does not allow you to
>>> simply and afforda

Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information

[Josh Luthman]

I couldn't imagine the product would be very popular if you had to wait for
the download to finish (or a long buffer time).  My thought was if it is
downloaded once, it is never downloaded again.  How many of us watch the
same movie multiple times?  I know several people that watch a movie and
then will watch it with a friend shortly after (cutting the bandwidth in
half in this situation).

Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly.
--- Henry Spencer


On Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 12:45 PM, Mike Hammett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:

> Depends...  If they send a higher quality file because it doesn't need to
> be
> in real time, it could take more bandwidth.
>
>
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions
> http://www.ics-il.com
>
>
>
> --
> From: "Josh Luthman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 11:36 AM
> To: "WISPA General List" 
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
>
> > With my consumer hat on I don't care if it is streaming or not really -
> > they
> > both of their small ups and downs.  If I have to pay for storage it would
> > bother me but I got the feeling they'll provide you with a unit that does
> > the storage.
> >
> > With my WISP hat on I would prefer people to store the data as it could
> > only
> > cut down on bandwidth usage, of course.
> >
> > Josh Luthman
> > Office: 937-552-2340
> > Direct: 937-552-2343
> > 1100 Wayne St
> > Suite 1337
> > Troy, OH 45373
> >
> > Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly.
> > --- Henry Spencer
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 12:21 PM, John Valenti <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> One nice feature of this Blockbuster device is that it seems to
> >> download and store the video, so it doesn't rely on streaming.
> >> Also, I looked at their website and it seems like the "good" videos
> >> cost $3.99 (not 1.99). The videos did seem to be more recent than the
> >> ones Netflix offers.
> >>
> >> On Nov 25, 2008, at 11:52 AM, Josh Luthman wrote:
> >>
> >> >> From the article...
> >> >
> >> > "To help get its next downloading box into homes, Blockbuster is
> >> > selling it
> >> > as part of a $99 package that includes 25 on-demand rentals. After
> >> > that,
> >> > Blockbuster will charge at least $1.99 for each downloaded video."
> >> > I sure wouldn't bite.  8.99/mo + Internet for unlimited or 1.99 +
> >> > Internet
> >> > per video.  In four videos time you spent more money - I would have
> >> > that
> >> > covered in a day or two (and I'm sure I rank low on the TV watching
> >> > scale).
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> 
> >> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> >> http://signup.wispa.org/
> >>
> >>
> 
> >>
> >> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
> >>
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> >> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
> >>
> >> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> 
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> > http://signup.wispa.org/
> >
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Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information

[Mike Hammett]

Depends...  If they send a higher quality file because it doesn't need to be 
in real time, it could take more bandwidth.


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com



--
From: "Josh Luthman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 11:36 AM
To: "WISPA General List" 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information

> With my consumer hat on I don't care if it is streaming or not really - 
> they
> both of their small ups and downs.  If I have to pay for storage it would
> bother me but I got the feeling they'll provide you with a unit that does
> the storage.
>
> With my WISP hat on I would prefer people to store the data as it could 
> only
> cut down on bandwidth usage, of course.
>
> Josh Luthman
> Office: 937-552-2340
> Direct: 937-552-2343
> 1100 Wayne St
> Suite 1337
> Troy, OH 45373
>
> Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly.
> --- Henry Spencer
>
>
> On Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 12:21 PM, John Valenti <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> wrote:
>
>> One nice feature of this Blockbuster device is that it seems to
>> download and store the video, so it doesn't rely on streaming.
>> Also, I looked at their website and it seems like the "good" videos
>> cost $3.99 (not 1.99). The videos did seem to be more recent than the
>> ones Netflix offers.
>>
>> On Nov 25, 2008, at 11:52 AM, Josh Luthman wrote:
>>
>> >> From the article...
>> >
>> > "To help get its next downloading box into homes, Blockbuster is
>> > selling it
>> > as part of a $99 package that includes 25 on-demand rentals. After
>> > that,
>> > Blockbuster will charge at least $1.99 for each downloaded video."
>> > I sure wouldn't bite.  8.99/mo + Internet for unlimited or 1.99 +
>> > Internet
>> > per video.  In four videos time you spent more money - I would have
>> > that
>> > covered in a day or two (and I'm sure I rank low on the TV watching
>> > scale).
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> 
>> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>> http://signup.wispa.org/
>>
>> 
>>
>> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>>
>> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
>> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>>
>> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>>
>
>
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> 



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Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information

[Josh Luthman]

With my consumer hat on I don't care if it is streaming or not really - they
both of their small ups and downs.  If I have to pay for storage it would
bother me but I got the feeling they'll provide you with a unit that does
the storage.

With my WISP hat on I would prefer people to store the data as it could only
cut down on bandwidth usage, of course.

Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly.
--- Henry Spencer


On Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 12:21 PM, John Valenti <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> One nice feature of this Blockbuster device is that it seems to
> download and store the video, so it doesn't rely on streaming.
> Also, I looked at their website and it seems like the "good" videos
> cost $3.99 (not 1.99). The videos did seem to be more recent than the
> ones Netflix offers.
>
> On Nov 25, 2008, at 11:52 AM, Josh Luthman wrote:
>
> >> From the article...
> >
> > "To help get its next downloading box into homes, Blockbuster is
> > selling it
> > as part of a $99 package that includes 25 on-demand rentals. After
> > that,
> > Blockbuster will charge at least $1.99 for each downloaded video."
> > I sure wouldn't bite.  8.99/mo + Internet for unlimited or 1.99 +
> > Internet
> > per video.  In four videos time you spent more money - I would have
> > that
> > covered in a day or two (and I'm sure I rank low on the TV watching
> > scale).
>
>
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
>
> 
>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
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>
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Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information

[John Valenti]

One nice feature of this Blockbuster device is that it seems to  
download and store the video, so it doesn't rely on streaming.
Also, I looked at their website and it seems like the "good" videos  
cost $3.99 (not 1.99). The videos did seem to be more recent than the  
ones Netflix offers.

On Nov 25, 2008, at 11:52 AM, Josh Luthman wrote:

>> From the article...
>
> "To help get its next downloading box into homes, Blockbuster is  
> selling it
> as part of a $99 package that includes 25 on-demand rentals. After  
> that,
> Blockbuster will charge at least $1.99 for each downloaded video."
> I sure wouldn't bite.  8.99/mo + Internet for unlimited or 1.99 +  
> Internet
> per video.  In four videos time you spent more money - I would have  
> that
> covered in a day or two (and I'm sure I rank low on the TV watching  
> scale).




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Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information

[CHUCK PROFITO]

Blockbuster just announced today that they are picking up "the whip" too.
Bend over

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5itAj9wGKAKlyNH4dMOR-wJUMz6
5QD94LV4000   

Chuck Profito
209-988-7388
CV-ACCESS, INC
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Providing High Speed Broadband 
to Rural Central California
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Charles Wu (CTI)
Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 7:47 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information

>Best practices tell
>you to build your network for your needs tomorrow, not for today, not for
>yesterday.

Until the cold reality of cash flow and running a profitable business smacks
you right in the face and then you're stuck trying to keep yesterday's
network running as long as possible...

-Charles


This message is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to
which it is addressed and may contain information that is privileged,
confidential and exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If the reader
of this message is not the intended recipient, or the employee or agent
responsible for delivery of the message to the intended recipient, you are
hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this
communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this
communication in error, please notify us immediately by telephone at
630-344-1586.




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Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information

[Josh Luthman]

>From the article...

"To help get its next downloading box into homes, Blockbuster is selling it
as part of a $99 package that includes 25 on-demand rentals. After that,
Blockbuster will charge at least $1.99 for each downloaded video."
I sure wouldn't bite.  8.99/mo + Internet for unlimited or 1.99 + Internet
per video.  In four videos time you spent more money - I would have that
covered in a day or two (and I'm sure I rank low on the TV watching scale).

Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly.
--- Henry Spencer


On Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 11:49 AM, CHUCK PROFITO <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:

> Blockbuster just announced today that they are picking up "the whip" too.
> Bend over
>
>
> http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5itAj9wGKAKlyNH4dMOR-wJUMz6
> 5QD94LV4000<http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5itAj9wGKAKlyNH4dMOR-wJUMz65QD94LV4000>
>
> Chuck Profito
> 209-988-7388
> CV-ACCESS, INC
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Providing High Speed Broadband
> to Rural Central California
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Charles Wu (CTI)
> Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 7:47 PM
> To: WISPA General List
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
>
> >Best practices tell
> >you to build your network for your needs tomorrow, not for today, not for
> >yesterday.
>
> Until the cold reality of cash flow and running a profitable business
> smacks
> you right in the face and then you're stuck trying to keep yesterday's
> network running as long as possible...
>
> -Charles
>
>
> This message is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to
> which it is addressed and may contain information that is privileged,
> confidential and exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If the reader
> of this message is not the intended recipient, or the employee or agent
> responsible for delivery of the message to the intended recipient, you are
> hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this
> communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this
> communication in error, please notify us immediately by telephone at
> 630-344-1586.
>
>
>
> 
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
>
> 
> 
>
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>
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>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
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>
>
>
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Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information

[Mike Hammett]

He was saying 3 meg DSL is $75/month.


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com



--
From: "Marlon K. Schafer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 8:58 AM
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "WISPA General List" 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information

> bahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
>
> $23/meg.  Dude, you suck!
>
> Out here I pay 250/meg at one location and $140 per at another.  That's 
> JUST
> the bw.  Tack on hundreds more for the pipe and it gets ugly fast.
>
> Century Tel has 3000/512 DSL for $50 per month for businesses.
>
> laters,
> marlon
>
> - Original Message - 
> From: "Scottie Arnett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "WISPA General List" 
> Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 12:13 AM
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
>
>
>> Drew,
>>
>> I once thought the world was full of rednecks and southern bells, until I
>> got out of the southern United States a few times. As a matter of fact, I
>> thought Vegas hung the moon!
>>
>> I am not sure where you hail from, but can you give us an idea of what
>> your upstream cost are? That makes ALL the difference in our discussion!
>> MY point is that even though I service very rural peeps, that they expect
>> the same service that their kinfolk have in metro areas! IT'S NOT GOING 
>> TO
>> HAPPEN! Now or NEVER unless there are some major undertakings! Not saying
>> this will happen everywhere, but 3 Mb/s is the MOST anyone can buy at the
>> moment, at $75/mth.
>>
>> And if you are deploying Fiber or some wireless technology that you can
>> sustain streaming from for over 50 consumers at once at 2 MBps, we would
>> love to hear about it and the statistics.
>>
>> Scottie
>>
>> -- Original Message --
>> From: Drew Lentz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Reply-To: WISPA General List 
>> Date:  Tue, 25 Nov 2008 01:26:16 -0600
>>
>>>The point that I was getting at when this thread started about 24 hours
>>>ago
>>>was about having an all you can eat type service. As it stands right now,
>>>how many ISPs are offering plans of 768k or 1Mbps or 3 Mbps? This is not
>>>going to cut it in the future. This is not going to cut it next year.
>>>
>>>I wasn't trying to say "well hell just buy more radios in the same
>>>frequency
>>>space and put them up on the towers" .. What I am getting at is that
>>>opening
>>>these subs up and supplying the bandwidth they need is going to have to
>>>become a reality at some point. If the networks that are in place today
>>>cannot satisfy that need, there will be other networks in the future that
>>>WILL be there.
>>>
>>>For what they have done with the physics side of it (i.e. Modulation
>>>schemes, channel reuse, beam forming, etc.) technologies exist or are
>>>being
>>>worked on to milk everything out of that valuable spectrum that we all 
>>>try
>>>and operate in.
>>>
>>>The cars on the bike trail is a perfect example .. Luckily whether its
>>>3.65
>>>or TVWS or the 700 MHz auctions, that spectrum is becoming available. The
>>>hope is that the operators that are around today see this and position or
>>>align themselves (because yes Charles, the cold reality does hit you
>>>pretty
>>>quiickly!) to take advantage of this as soon as they can. And that 
>>>doesn't
>>>mean just for the distribution side of their network. The backhaul, the
>>>routing, the switching, all have to be in place for this to operate
>>>properly.  All too often have a seen pieced together WISPS fail due to 
>>>bad
>>>switching equipment .. "well heck, this Netgear switch is only $59!!"
>>>
>>>Jack, I truly appreciate your perspective on this and I completely
>>>understand the side of it you are coming from. True, the amount of
>>>unlicensed space that is out there currently will not hold a network that
>>>supports as you said "high-throughput, high-reliability, moderate-cost,
>>>non-interfering networks" .. But that is today. With innovation in
>>>communications, as it has been proven time and again, where there's a 
>>>will
>>>there's a way. Maybe the 5GHz spectrum can't hold what it needs to on its
>>>own, maybe there isnt a modulation scheme for stuffing mor

Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information

[Marlon K. Schafer]

bahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

$23/meg.  Dude, you suck!

Out here I pay 250/meg at one location and $140 per at another.  That's JUST 
the bw.  Tack on hundreds more for the pipe and it gets ugly fast.

Century Tel has 3000/512 DSL for $50 per month for businesses.

laters,
marlon

- Original Message - 
From: "Scottie Arnett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 12:13 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information


> Drew,
>
> I once thought the world was full of rednecks and southern bells, until I 
> got out of the southern United States a few times. As a matter of fact, I 
> thought Vegas hung the moon!
>
> I am not sure where you hail from, but can you give us an idea of what 
> your upstream cost are? That makes ALL the difference in our discussion! 
> MY point is that even though I service very rural peeps, that they expect 
> the same service that their kinfolk have in metro areas! IT'S NOT GOING TO 
> HAPPEN! Now or NEVER unless there are some major undertakings! Not saying 
> this will happen everywhere, but 3 Mb/s is the MOST anyone can buy at the 
> moment, at $75/mth.
>
> And if you are deploying Fiber or some wireless technology that you can 
> sustain streaming from for over 50 consumers at once at 2 MBps, we would 
> love to hear about it and the statistics.
>
> Scottie
>
> -- Original Message --
> From: Drew Lentz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Reply-To: WISPA General List 
> Date:  Tue, 25 Nov 2008 01:26:16 -0600
>
>>The point that I was getting at when this thread started about 24 hours 
>>ago
>>was about having an all you can eat type service. As it stands right now,
>>how many ISPs are offering plans of 768k or 1Mbps or 3 Mbps? This is not
>>going to cut it in the future. This is not going to cut it next year.
>>
>>I wasn't trying to say "well hell just buy more radios in the same 
>>frequency
>>space and put them up on the towers" .. What I am getting at is that 
>>opening
>>these subs up and supplying the bandwidth they need is going to have to
>>become a reality at some point. If the networks that are in place today
>>cannot satisfy that need, there will be other networks in the future that
>>WILL be there.
>>
>>For what they have done with the physics side of it (i.e. Modulation
>>schemes, channel reuse, beam forming, etc.) technologies exist or are 
>>being
>>worked on to milk everything out of that valuable spectrum that we all try
>>and operate in.
>>
>>The cars on the bike trail is a perfect example .. Luckily whether its 
>>3.65
>>or TVWS or the 700 MHz auctions, that spectrum is becoming available. The
>>hope is that the operators that are around today see this and position or
>>align themselves (because yes Charles, the cold reality does hit you 
>>pretty
>>quiickly!) to take advantage of this as soon as they can. And that doesn't
>>mean just for the distribution side of their network. The backhaul, the
>>routing, the switching, all have to be in place for this to operate
>>properly.  All too often have a seen pieced together WISPS fail due to bad
>>switching equipment .. "well heck, this Netgear switch is only $59!!"
>>
>>Jack, I truly appreciate your perspective on this and I completely
>>understand the side of it you are coming from. True, the amount of
>>unlicensed space that is out there currently will not hold a network that
>>supports as you said "high-throughput, high-reliability, moderate-cost,
>>non-interfering networks" .. But that is today. With innovation in
>>communications, as it has been proven time and again, where there's a will
>>there's a way. Maybe the 5GHz spectrum can't hold what it needs to on its
>>own, maybe there isnt a modulation scheme for stuffing more bits per hertz
>>available today .. But that does not mean that multi-frequency equipment 
>>or
>>innovation will not exist in the future.
>>
>>-drew
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>On 11/25/08 1:01 AM, "Jack Unger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>>> Drew,
>>>
>>> As I've mentioned before - wireless "physics" does not allow you to
>>> simply and affordably "build your network" for tomorrow but you do not
>>> yet understand this point. No matter what the customer wants (or
>>> demands) and no matter how much the WISP wants to build a
>>> high-throughput network at a reasonable price, wireless "physics"
>>> (specificall

Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information

[Marlon K. Schafer]

We have always had a per bit plan in place.

Our speeds are as high as 10 meg on wireless and 100 on fiber.

Yet our average user is down at 3 megs.  Well, really below that as my 
tracking mechanism counts the servers and high end business users and it 
really shouldn't do that.

We're still growing nicely and have lost very few customers due to usage 
issues over the years.  Usually they are the ones that I really didn't want 
anyway.  Sell one account and they build their own system that covers the 
entire neighborhood, watch TV online etc.

I really feel for my competitors.  We've certainly run off more than a few 
potential new customers because of our 6 gig limit.  I'd love to see the bw 
and gig numbers for some of the other wisps in my area.  I'll bet it's 
amazingly different.

laters,
marlon

- Original Message - 
From: "Drew Lentz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 11:26 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information


> The point that I was getting at when this thread started about 24 hours 
> ago
> was about having an all you can eat type service. As it stands right now,
> how many ISPs are offering plans of 768k or 1Mbps or 3 Mbps? This is not
> going to cut it in the future. This is not going to cut it next year.
>
> I wasn't trying to say "well hell just buy more radios in the same 
> frequency
> space and put them up on the towers" .. What I am getting at is that 
> opening
> these subs up and supplying the bandwidth they need is going to have to
> become a reality at some point. If the networks that are in place today
> cannot satisfy that need, there will be other networks in the future that
> WILL be there.
>
> For what they have done with the physics side of it (i.e. Modulation
> schemes, channel reuse, beam forming, etc.) technologies exist or are 
> being
> worked on to milk everything out of that valuable spectrum that we all try
> and operate in.
>
> The cars on the bike trail is a perfect example .. Luckily whether its 
> 3.65
> or TVWS or the 700 MHz auctions, that spectrum is becoming available. The
> hope is that the operators that are around today see this and position or
> align themselves (because yes Charles, the cold reality does hit you 
> pretty
> quiickly!) to take advantage of this as soon as they can. And that doesn't
> mean just for the distribution side of their network. The backhaul, the
> routing, the switching, all have to be in place for this to operate
> properly.  All too often have a seen pieced together WISPS fail due to bad
> switching equipment .. "well heck, this Netgear switch is only $59!!"
>
> Jack, I truly appreciate your perspective on this and I completely
> understand the side of it you are coming from. True, the amount of
> unlicensed space that is out there currently will not hold a network that
> supports as you said "high-throughput, high-reliability, moderate-cost,
> non-interfering networks" .. But that is today. With innovation in
> communications, as it has been proven time and again, where there's a will
> there's a way. Maybe the 5GHz spectrum can't hold what it needs to on its
> own, maybe there isnt a modulation scheme for stuffing more bits per hertz
> available today .. But that does not mean that multi-frequency equipment 
> or
> innovation will not exist in the future.
>
> -drew
>
>
>
>
> On 11/25/08 1:01 AM, "Jack Unger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> Drew,
>>
>> As I've mentioned before - wireless "physics" does not allow you to
>> simply and affordably "build your network" for tomorrow but you do not
>> yet understand this point. No matter what the customer wants (or
>> demands) and no matter how much the WISP wants to build a
>> high-throughput network at a reasonable price, wireless "physics"
>> (specifically the lack of available spectrum) prevents this. With
>> limited spectrum (which is what we have today in spite of the arguments
>> that we have "WiMAX" in 3650 and future "White Space" and "opportunities
>> to partner with licensed carriers) WISPs can not build high-throughput,
>> high-reliability, moderate-cost, non-interfering networks that serve a
>> lot of customers without having access to more spectrum. As you point
>> out, watching bandwidth needs so you can "know what's coming" and plan
>> accordingly is important but you can not make physics (that's what
>> happens in the REAL world) bend to your business and marketing models.
>> The exact opposite happens - marketing plans fail 

Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information

[Drew Lentz]

Obviously upstream costs vary depending on where you are located. That isn't
the whole issue here. At the last wisp we built out, we were accessing dual
DS-3s at 2 central points and distributing them via 155Mbps radios
throughout 6000 square miles. We found the lowest cost upstream provider at
the time (WilTel which is now Level3) and piped it to where we needed it. We
spent the money on the front end to provide high bandwidth services to where
we would need it in the future so that we didn't have to worry about
existing infrastructure. Those pipes are now now starting to fill up (from
what I understand, I am no longer at that company) and they are adding more
capacity on existing tower sites.

On the microwave side, solutions from companies like DragonWave, Ceragon,
Nera, and Bridgewave give you tons of bandwidth availability. If you want to
push hundreds of megabits of transfer, there are equipment solutions that
are out there available to do so.

I work with WISPs, carriers, private end-users, and agencies on a day to day
basis that are upgrading their pipes today to get them in the lead tomorrow.
Just because you are in a rural area (I hail from McAllen, TX on the
US/Mexico border .. Pretty rural here too!) doesn't mean that you can't
begin to provide the same types of service that are available in metro
areas. Wok with your local fiber carriers, find out where their pops are,
talk to them about tower co-location or dropping fiber to a nearby area to
save on local loop charges, and shoot it to your NOC. There are a ton of
different ways to skin this cat, and the equipment is there to help you do
it. Some of it may be less expensive than you think too!

-drew


On 11/25/08 2:13 AM, "Scottie Arnett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Drew,
> 
> I once thought the world was full of rednecks and southern bells, until I got
> out of the southern United States a few times. As a matter of fact, I thought
> Vegas hung the moon!
> 
> I am not sure where you hail from, but can you give us an idea of what your
> upstream cost are? That makes ALL the difference in our discussion! MY point
> is that even though I service very rural peeps, that they expect the same
> service that their kinfolk have in metro areas! IT'S NOT GOING TO HAPPEN! Now
> or NEVER unless there are some major undertakings! Not saying this will happen
> everywhere, but 3 Mb/s is the MOST anyone can buy at the moment, at $75/mth.
> 
> And if you are deploying Fiber or some wireless technology that you can
> sustain streaming from for over 50 consumers at once at 2 MBps, we would love
> to hear about it and the statistics.
> 
> Scottie
> 
> -- Original Message --
> From: Drew Lentz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Reply-To: WISPA General List 
> Date:  Tue, 25 Nov 2008 01:26:16 -0600
> 
>> The point that I was getting at when this thread started about 24 hours ago
>> was about having an all you can eat type service. As it stands right now,
>> how many ISPs are offering plans of 768k or 1Mbps or 3 Mbps? This is not
>> going to cut it in the future. This is not going to cut it next year.
>> 
>> I wasn't trying to say "well hell just buy more radios in the same frequency
>> space and put them up on the towers" .. What I am getting at is that opening
>> these subs up and supplying the bandwidth they need is going to have to
>> become a reality at some point. If the networks that are in place today
>> cannot satisfy that need, there will be other networks in the future that
>> WILL be there. 
>> 
>> For what they have done with the physics side of it (i.e. Modulation
>> schemes, channel reuse, beam forming, etc.) technologies exist or are being
>> worked on to milk everything out of that valuable spectrum that we all try
>> and operate in.
>> 
>> The cars on the bike trail is a perfect example .. Luckily whether its 3.65
>> or TVWS or the 700 MHz auctions, that spectrum is becoming available. The
>> hope is that the operators that are around today see this and position or
>> align themselves (because yes Charles, the cold reality does hit you pretty
>> quiickly!) to take advantage of this as soon as they can. And that doesn't
>> mean just for the distribution side of their network. The backhaul, the
>> routing, the switching, all have to be in place for this to operate
>> properly.  All too often have a seen pieced together WISPS fail due to bad
>> switching equipment .. "well heck, this Netgear switch is only $59!!"
>> 
>> Jack, I truly appreciate your perspective on this and I completely
>> understand the side of it you are coming from. True, the amount of
>> unlicensed space that is out there currently will not hold a network that
>> supports as you said "high-throughput, high-reliability, moderate-cost,
>> non-interfering networks" .. But that is today. With innovation in
>> communications, as it has been proven time and again, where there's a will
>> there's a way. Maybe the 5GHz spectrum can't hold what it needs to on it

Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information

[Scottie Arnett]

Drew,

I once thought the world was full of rednecks and southern bells, until I got 
out of the southern United States a few times. As a matter of fact, I thought 
Vegas hung the moon!

I am not sure where you hail from, but can you give us an idea of what your 
upstream cost are? That makes ALL the difference in our discussion! MY point is 
that even though I service very rural peeps, that they expect the same service 
that their kinfolk have in metro areas! IT'S NOT GOING TO HAPPEN! Now or NEVER 
unless there are some major undertakings! Not saying this will happen 
everywhere, but 3 Mb/s is the MOST anyone can buy at the moment, at $75/mth.

And if you are deploying Fiber or some wireless technology that you can sustain 
streaming from for over 50 consumers at once at 2 MBps, we would love to hear 
about it and the statistics.

Scottie

-- Original Message --
From: Drew Lentz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: WISPA General List 
Date:  Tue, 25 Nov 2008 01:26:16 -0600

>The point that I was getting at when this thread started about 24 hours ago
>was about having an all you can eat type service. As it stands right now,
>how many ISPs are offering plans of 768k or 1Mbps or 3 Mbps? This is not
>going to cut it in the future. This is not going to cut it next year.
>
>I wasn't trying to say "well hell just buy more radios in the same frequency
>space and put them up on the towers" .. What I am getting at is that opening
>these subs up and supplying the bandwidth they need is going to have to
>become a reality at some point. If the networks that are in place today
>cannot satisfy that need, there will be other networks in the future that
>WILL be there. 
>
>For what they have done with the physics side of it (i.e. Modulation
>schemes, channel reuse, beam forming, etc.) technologies exist or are being
>worked on to milk everything out of that valuable spectrum that we all try
>and operate in.
>
>The cars on the bike trail is a perfect example .. Luckily whether its 3.65
>or TVWS or the 700 MHz auctions, that spectrum is becoming available. The
>hope is that the operators that are around today see this and position or
>align themselves (because yes Charles, the cold reality does hit you pretty
>quiickly!) to take advantage of this as soon as they can. And that doesn't
>mean just for the distribution side of their network. The backhaul, the
>routing, the switching, all have to be in place for this to operate
>properly.  All too often have a seen pieced together WISPS fail due to bad
>switching equipment .. "well heck, this Netgear switch is only $59!!"
>
>Jack, I truly appreciate your perspective on this and I completely
>understand the side of it you are coming from. True, the amount of
>unlicensed space that is out there currently will not hold a network that
>supports as you said "high-throughput, high-reliability, moderate-cost,
>non-interfering networks" .. But that is today. With innovation in
>communications, as it has been proven time and again, where there's a will
>there's a way. Maybe the 5GHz spectrum can't hold what it needs to on its
>own, maybe there isnt a modulation scheme for stuffing more bits per hertz
>available today .. But that does not mean that multi-frequency equipment or
>innovation will not exist in the future.
>
>-drew
>
>
>
>
>On 11/25/08 1:01 AM, "Jack Unger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> Drew,
>> 
>> As I've mentioned before - wireless "physics" does not allow you to
>> simply and affordably "build your network" for tomorrow but you do not
>> yet understand this point. No matter what the customer wants (or
>> demands) and no matter how much the WISP wants to build a
>> high-throughput network at a reasonable price, wireless "physics"
>> (specifically the lack of available spectrum) prevents this. With
>> limited spectrum (which is what we have today in spite of the arguments
>> that we have "WiMAX" in 3650 and future "White Space" and "opportunities
>> to partner with licensed carriers) WISPs can not build high-throughput,
>> high-reliability, moderate-cost, non-interfering networks that serve a
>> lot of customers without having access to more spectrum. As you point
>> out, watching bandwidth needs so you can "know what's coming" and plan
>> accordingly is important but you can not make physics (that's what
>> happens in the REAL world) bend to your business and marketing models.
>> The exact opposite happens - marketing plans fail because the technology
>> (the real-world PHYSICAL behavior) does not obey the marketing plan.
>> 
>> There's nothing personal here - the PHYSICAL reality calls the shots and
>> it always wins. For example, it doesn't matter that I want (and General
>> Motors marketing plan may call for) a safe, five-passenger car that goes
>> 200 MPH all day and gets 100 MPG up and down an unpaved bicycle trail
>> through the Colorado Rockies along with 100 other cars simultaneously
>> and costs only $3000 to buy. You and I both r

Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information

[Mike Hammett]

Of course more spectrum is good, but are you saying that in 50 years, we 
won't have bested 2.5 bit/Hz in PtMP gear and 10 bit/hz in PtP gear (which 
alone points out a 4x difference)?

There's not that much more spectrum to be had...  frankly I'll be surprised 
if in the next 10  years we get anything more than what's in the NOI or NPRM 
stage now (which I think includes BRS\EBS whitespaces).  There just isn't 
that much left to be had...  unless you go way up there, but then 70\80 
already has that pretty well with what, 10 GHz of spectrum available?

Since better gear has already demonstrated itself, I think we'll have to see 
more of that before we get more spectrum, if we get any more at all.

I think our only other option would be a long range UWB or whatever those 
clowns in Florida were working on...  I forget what or who now.


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com



--
From: "Jack Unger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 1:01 AM
To: "WISPA General List" 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information

> Drew,
>
> As I've mentioned before - wireless "physics" does not allow you to
> simply and affordably "build your network" for tomorrow but you do not
> yet understand this point. No matter what the customer wants (or
> demands) and no matter how much the WISP wants to build a
> high-throughput network at a reasonable price, wireless "physics"
> (specifically the lack of available spectrum) prevents this. With
> limited spectrum (which is what we have today in spite of the arguments
> that we have "WiMAX" in 3650 and future "White Space" and "opportunities
> to partner with licensed carriers) WISPs can not build high-throughput,
> high-reliability, moderate-cost, non-interfering networks that serve a
> lot of customers without having access to more spectrum. As you point
> out, watching bandwidth needs so you can "know what's coming" and plan
> accordingly is important but you can not make physics (that's what
> happens in the REAL world) bend to your business and marketing models.
> The exact opposite happens - marketing plans fail because the technology
> (the real-world PHYSICAL behavior) does not obey the marketing plan.
>
> There's nothing personal here - the PHYSICAL reality calls the shots and
> it always wins. For example, it doesn't matter that I want (and General
> Motors marketing plan may call for) a safe, five-passenger car that goes
> 200 MPH all day and gets 100 MPG up and down an unpaved bicycle trail
> through the Colorado Rockies along with 100 other cars simultaneously
> and costs only $3000 to buy. You and I both recognize that  in spite of
> the marketing plan, it just is not going to physically work. No company
> could build such a car for $3000 and if someone did, it would run off
> the trail within 30 seconds as it accelerated, especially if there were
> 100 other similar 200 MPH cars on the same bicycle trail. The bike trail
> just can't support that kind of traffic even if the car could be built
> for $3000. Wireless channel needs are the same. To support a lot of
> traffic simultaneously needs a very wide road - a very wide, unshared
> channel.
>
> Now I'm going to explain why I keep emphasizing this point - because it
> needs to be understood so that the focus is placed in the proper area to
> solve the problem - more spectrum. Yes - some wireless vendors aren't
> delivering innovative products and some WISP owners aren't planning and
> deploying properly but even when vendors do innovate and WISP owners
> plan properly, SPECTRUM IS STILL NEEDED or the wireless physics won't
> work and the wireless throughput still won't be delivered.
>
> Again, this isn't personal. I just refuse to allow this discussion to be
> thrown off-track because the wireless physical foundation is not
> understood. If we go off-track then the problem won't be properly
> addressed and it can't be properly solved.  I appreciate your good
> business analysis but I will keep trying to the best of my ability to
> address the underlying issue so WISPs stand a chance of being successful
> now and into the future as end-user throughput needs continue to increase.
>
> Respectfully,
>
> jack
>
>
> Drew Lentz wrote:
>> This is the statement that got me:
>>
>>> One argument that I have had people tell me, is that the ISP should know
>>> this is coming and should have planned for it.
>>>
>>
>> Whether it is through watching the amount of bandwidth used over periods 
>> of
&g

Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information

[Drew Lentz]

The point that I was getting at when this thread started about 24 hours ago
was about having an all you can eat type service. As it stands right now,
how many ISPs are offering plans of 768k or 1Mbps or 3 Mbps? This is not
going to cut it in the future. This is not going to cut it next year.

I wasn't trying to say "well hell just buy more radios in the same frequency
space and put them up on the towers" .. What I am getting at is that opening
these subs up and supplying the bandwidth they need is going to have to
become a reality at some point. If the networks that are in place today
cannot satisfy that need, there will be other networks in the future that
WILL be there. 

For what they have done with the physics side of it (i.e. Modulation
schemes, channel reuse, beam forming, etc.) technologies exist or are being
worked on to milk everything out of that valuable spectrum that we all try
and operate in.

The cars on the bike trail is a perfect example .. Luckily whether its 3.65
or TVWS or the 700 MHz auctions, that spectrum is becoming available. The
hope is that the operators that are around today see this and position or
align themselves (because yes Charles, the cold reality does hit you pretty
quiickly!) to take advantage of this as soon as they can. And that doesn't
mean just for the distribution side of their network. The backhaul, the
routing, the switching, all have to be in place for this to operate
properly.  All too often have a seen pieced together WISPS fail due to bad
switching equipment .. "well heck, this Netgear switch is only $59!!"

Jack, I truly appreciate your perspective on this and I completely
understand the side of it you are coming from. True, the amount of
unlicensed space that is out there currently will not hold a network that
supports as you said "high-throughput, high-reliability, moderate-cost,
non-interfering networks" .. But that is today. With innovation in
communications, as it has been proven time and again, where there's a will
there's a way. Maybe the 5GHz spectrum can't hold what it needs to on its
own, maybe there isnt a modulation scheme for stuffing more bits per hertz
available today .. But that does not mean that multi-frequency equipment or
innovation will not exist in the future.

-drew




On 11/25/08 1:01 AM, "Jack Unger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Drew,
> 
> As I've mentioned before - wireless "physics" does not allow you to
> simply and affordably "build your network" for tomorrow but you do not
> yet understand this point. No matter what the customer wants (or
> demands) and no matter how much the WISP wants to build a
> high-throughput network at a reasonable price, wireless "physics"
> (specifically the lack of available spectrum) prevents this. With
> limited spectrum (which is what we have today in spite of the arguments
> that we have "WiMAX" in 3650 and future "White Space" and "opportunities
> to partner with licensed carriers) WISPs can not build high-throughput,
> high-reliability, moderate-cost, non-interfering networks that serve a
> lot of customers without having access to more spectrum. As you point
> out, watching bandwidth needs so you can "know what's coming" and plan
> accordingly is important but you can not make physics (that's what
> happens in the REAL world) bend to your business and marketing models.
> The exact opposite happens - marketing plans fail because the technology
> (the real-world PHYSICAL behavior) does not obey the marketing plan.
> 
> There's nothing personal here - the PHYSICAL reality calls the shots and
> it always wins. For example, it doesn't matter that I want (and General
> Motors marketing plan may call for) a safe, five-passenger car that goes
> 200 MPH all day and gets 100 MPG up and down an unpaved bicycle trail
> through the Colorado Rockies along with 100 other cars simultaneously
> and costs only $3000 to buy. You and I both recognize that  in spite of
> the marketing plan, it just is not going to physically work. No company
> could build such a car for $3000 and if someone did, it would run off
> the trail within 30 seconds as it accelerated, especially if there were
> 100 other similar 200 MPH cars on the same bicycle trail. The bike trail
> just can't support that kind of traffic even if the car could be built
> for $3000. Wireless channel needs are the same. To support a lot of
> traffic simultaneously needs a very wide road - a very wide, unshared
> channel.
> 
> Now I'm going to explain why I keep emphasizing this point - because it
> needs to be understood so that the focus is placed in the proper area to
> solve the problem - more spectrum. Yes - some wireless vendors aren't
> delivering innovative products and some WISP owners aren't planning and
> deploying properly but even when vendors do innovate and WISP owners
> plan properly, SPECTRUM IS STILL NEEDED or the wireless physics won't
> work and the wireless throughput still won't be delivered.
> 
> Again, this isn't personal. I just ref

Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information

[Butch Evans]

On Tue, 25 Nov 2008, Scottie Arnett wrote:

>I have to BITCH about the cost of gear, or not compete. I am a

I understand the reasons price is so important to WISPs.  The point 
I was making was only peripherally about the complaints regard 
equipment cost.  The manufacturers have gotten a clear signal from 
their "constituancy" that cost is THE determining factor.  Just as 
YOU have to do certain things to compete and deliver a product that 
is something your customers will purchase over the competition, so 
do the manufacturers.  You'll notice that the real innovation is 
among the companies that held their prices high enough to allow them 
to do the needed R&D to deliver new and innovative product 
offerings.  That was my point.  It wasn't really even about the 
WISPs specifically (though reading my post again, it LOOKS even to 
me that is what I meant).

And, for what it's worth, I understand this predatory marketing that 
is happening.  I don't agree with that approach, but it is a reality 
that many of us face to different degrees.

-- 

* Butch Evans   * Professional Network Consultation*
* http://www.butchevans.com/* Network Engineering  *
* http://www.wispa.org/ * WISPA Board Member   *
* http://blog.butchevans.com/   * Wired or Wireless Networks   *




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Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information

[Mike Hammett]

Sounds like you can't deploy in TVWS soon enough!


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com



--
From: "Scottie Arnett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 12:32 AM
To: "WISPA General List" 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information

> Butch,
>
> I am not downplaying your response. The problem I am seeing is that my 
> main competition is two rural cooperatives, the cable comp in my area is 
> virtually nill. The cable co's are privately owned. I am not sure how 
> they(cooperatives) are doing it, but they must be getting $$$ to fund 
> their buildouts from somewhere besides the members? I was serving areas 
> they were not 2 years ago, but now they are. And they are servicing them 
> not only with DSL but video?
>
> I have to BITCH about the cost of gear, or not compete. I am a mostly 
> Canopy shop at 900 Mhz, our area is 400 to 500 ft hills every mile or so. 
> So, I have had to eat much more than most would. In my area, 5.7 will 
> NEVER go beyond 3 miles, if it will work then. They(Co-ops) dropped their 
> price almost in half in the towns that they cover for 3 MB DSL to $75/mth, 
> I still offer 1.5MB for $90/mth and have only lost 1 business customer in 
> 2 years. That can show their service level?
>
> Although my scenario, may sound good, I am fronting all the money on these 
> Canopy 900 Mhz units. We lease the unit to them included in their monthly 
> cost. We are still in the red after 3 years. When they(Co-ops, or anyone 
> that owns the local loop) can buy a Stinger DSL DSLAM (for instance) that 
> will service 24 customers at about $1500, and DSL modems for less than 
> $50/cpe... What is left for us to compete?
>
> On top of that, they OWN the local loop to here. I have a 2XT1 from AT&T 
> that 2/3rds of the cost of it is local loop (to the local Co-op)at a total 
> cost of $1379/mth.
>
> So, Yes, although most Wireless MFG's build stuff for the last mile, maybe 
> they should look at the REAL last mile in BFE, and see what we have to 
> compete against, if the competition even exist?
>
> Just a side notethe local Co-op requires you to take their landline to 
> get DSL, we get %95 of our customers who do not want their POS landline 
> and use their cell phone, but the barriers are still there!
>
> Scottie
> -- Original Message --
> From: Butch Evans <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Reply-To: WISPA General List 
> Date:  Mon, 24 Nov 2008 22:18:48 -0600 (CST)
>
>>On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, Mike Hammett wrote:
>>
>>>Where has the innovation in the last few years gone?
>>
>>How many in this industry bitch and moan over the cost of gear?  How
>>many would purchase an AP at under $200 and STILL think that's too
>>high?  How many in this industry are willing to purchase something
>>JUST BECAUSE IT IS CHEAPER?  Look at how many people in this
>>industry are using DSL as a transport to the Internet.
>>
>>Answer THOSE questions and you'll begin the see the answer to YOUR
>>question.  The problem isn't just "us".  The "big boys" have been
>>busy trying to drive pricing levels down in an attempt to "buy the
>>market".  And too many of "us" have decided that we have to compete
>>on price alone, so we found ways to cut cost by buying cheaper gear
>>(there are 2 WISPs within a 30 minute drive of my house that are
>>selling service using Linksys gear for APs).  There is at least 3
>>WISPs whose service would cover my house that have DSL for their
>>internet connection.  I'm not condemming the practice as much as I
>>am attempting to illustrate WHY the innovation is leaving the
>>industry.  It is NOT gone.  It just doesn't exist in the price range
>>that MOST people are willing to pay (WISPs, that is).
>>
>>-- 
>>
>>* Butch Evans * Professional Network Consultation*
>>* http://www.butchevans.com/ * Network Engineering*
>>* http://www.wispa.org/ * WISPA Board Member*
>>* http://blog.butchevans.com/ * Wired or Wireless Networks*
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>>http://signup.wispa.org/
>>
>>
>>WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>>
>&

Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information

[Jack Unger]

Drew,

As I've mentioned before - wireless "physics" does not allow you to 
simply and affordably "build your network" for tomorrow but you do not 
yet understand this point. No matter what the customer wants (or 
demands) and no matter how much the WISP wants to build a 
high-throughput network at a reasonable price, wireless "physics" 
(specifically the lack of available spectrum) prevents this. With 
limited spectrum (which is what we have today in spite of the arguments 
that we have "WiMAX" in 3650 and future "White Space" and "opportunities 
to partner with licensed carriers) WISPs can not build high-throughput, 
high-reliability, moderate-cost, non-interfering networks that serve a 
lot of customers without having access to more spectrum. As you point 
out, watching bandwidth needs so you can "know what's coming" and plan 
accordingly is important but you can not make physics (that's what 
happens in the REAL world) bend to your business and marketing models. 
The exact opposite happens - marketing plans fail because the technology 
(the real-world PHYSICAL behavior) does not obey the marketing plan.

There's nothing personal here - the PHYSICAL reality calls the shots and 
it always wins. For example, it doesn't matter that I want (and General 
Motors marketing plan may call for) a safe, five-passenger car that goes 
200 MPH all day and gets 100 MPG up and down an unpaved bicycle trail 
through the Colorado Rockies along with 100 other cars simultaneously 
and costs only $3000 to buy. You and I both recognize that  in spite of 
the marketing plan, it just is not going to physically work. No company 
could build such a car for $3000 and if someone did, it would run off 
the trail within 30 seconds as it accelerated, especially if there were 
100 other similar 200 MPH cars on the same bicycle trail. The bike trail 
just can't support that kind of traffic even if the car could be built 
for $3000. Wireless channel needs are the same. To support a lot of 
traffic simultaneously needs a very wide road - a very wide, unshared 
channel.

Now I'm going to explain why I keep emphasizing this point - because it 
needs to be understood so that the focus is placed in the proper area to 
solve the problem - more spectrum. Yes - some wireless vendors aren't 
delivering innovative products and some WISP owners aren't planning and 
deploying properly but even when vendors do innovate and WISP owners 
plan properly, SPECTRUM IS STILL NEEDED or the wireless physics won't 
work and the wireless throughput still won't be delivered.

Again, this isn't personal. I just refuse to allow this discussion to be 
thrown off-track because the wireless physical foundation is not 
understood. If we go off-track then the problem won't be properly 
addressed and it can't be properly solved.  I appreciate your good 
business analysis but I will keep trying to the best of my ability to 
address the underlying issue so WISPs stand a chance of being successful 
now and into the future as end-user throughput needs continue to increase.

Respectfully,

jack


Drew Lentz wrote:
> This is the statement that got me:
>   
>> One argument that I have had people tell me, is that the ISP should know
>> this is coming and should have planned for it.
>> 
>
> Whether it is through watching the amount of bandwidth used over periods of
> time as a trend or doing market research to find out what is coming down the
> line in technology, this statement holds pretty strong. Best practices tell
> you to build your network for your needs tomorrow, not for today, not for
> yesterday.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> 
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Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information

[George Rogato]

Scottie Arnett wrote:

> Just a side notethe local Co-op requires you to take their landline to 
> get DSL, we get %95 of our customers who do not want their POS landline and 
> use their cell phone, but the barriers are still there!
> 
> Scottie

Facts are, nobody can succesfully corner 100% of the market and be 
continuously that succesful, unless they are the only choice

We find our customers or we should say our customers find us because we 
offer something the other guy doesn't, an option to not have a telephone 
line.

Cell phone's are a wisps best friend!

Now consider the cell phone user, our target market, who else fits into 
that "cut the wire" and "save money" scenerio, the very light television 
user who doesn't have much income, or someone frugal, who diesn't really 
watch much tv.

If they can get local stations with an aerial and get some movies on 
demand or free tv shows online, they're ours to be had.

So although we can't possibly replace the cable or dish, we can offer a 
lower cost lower usage alternative. And I bet there are plenty of people 
that fit that description.

Just another group target to add to our base.


George



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Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information

[Scottie Arnett]

Chuck,

Me again. LOL. I may be totally wrong here. But how much in USF have you 
received to service these areas? I know you may prove me to be a dumba$$, but 
you, yourself, in response to my past previous posts have said you would never 
serve these areas with competition. There has to be a driving force to do that, 
espicially with fiber or massive backhauls. You are a business man, no doubt! 
How do you do it without losing your a$$?

Scottie

-- Original Message --
From: "Chuck McCown - 3" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: WISPA General List 
Date:  Mon, 24 Nov 2008 21:27:10 -0700

>Check out Garrison Utah or Burbank Nevada.  Doesn't get much more rural than 
>that.
>Of course I have spent the most part of the last 20 years slowly building a 
>fiber and microwave network to get to all these areas.
>
>- Original Message - 
>From: "Butch Evans" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: "WISPA General List" 
>Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 9:24 PM
>Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
>
>
>> On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, Chuck McCown - 3 wrote:
>>
>>>I deliver 100 mbps wholesale to many rural areas for $3-4K/month
>>>type of figure. That includes transport. And stastically, you can
>>>oversub it, even with streaming content. You are never going to
>>>have all 20 streaming movies all at the same time. I am willing to
>>>take the chance.  That is how we are building out our network.
>>
>> Can you deliver that speed for that price to 802 Stokelan Drive in
>> Malden, MO?  If you can, you're the ONLY one who can.
>>
>> -- 
>> 
>> * Butch Evans * Professional Network Consultation*
>> * http://www.butchevans.com/ * Network Engineering*
>> * http://www.wispa.org/ * WISPA Board Member*
>> * http://blog.butchevans.com/ * Wired or Wireless Networks*
>> 
>>
>>
>> 
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Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information

[Scottie Arnett]

Butch,

I am not downplaying your response. The problem I am seeing is that my main 
competition is two rural cooperatives, the cable comp in my area is virtually 
nill. The cable co's are privately owned. I am not sure how they(cooperatives) 
are doing it, but they must be getting $$$ to fund their buildouts from 
somewhere besides the members? I was serving areas they were not 2 years ago, 
but now they are. And they are servicing them not only with DSL but video? 

I have to BITCH about the cost of gear, or not compete. I am a mostly Canopy 
shop at 900 Mhz, our area is 400 to 500 ft hills every mile or so. So, I have 
had to eat much more than most would. In my area, 5.7 will NEVER go beyond 3 
miles, if it will work then. They(Co-ops) dropped their price almost in half in 
the towns that they cover for 3 MB DSL to $75/mth, I still offer 1.5MB for 
$90/mth and have only lost 1 business customer in 2 years. That can show their 
service level?

Although my scenario, may sound good, I am fronting all the money on these 
Canopy 900 Mhz units. We lease the unit to them included in their monthly cost. 
We are still in the red after 3 years. When they(Co-ops, or anyone that owns 
the local loop) can buy a Stinger DSL DSLAM (for instance) that will service 24 
customers at about $1500, and DSL modems for less than $50/cpe... What is left 
for us to compete?

On top of that, they OWN the local loop to here. I have a 2XT1 from AT&T that 
2/3rds of the cost of it is local loop (to the local Co-op)at a total cost of 
$1379/mth.

So, Yes, although most Wireless MFG's build stuff for the last mile, maybe they 
should look at the REAL last mile in BFE, and see what we have to compete 
against, if the competition even exist?

Just a side notethe local Co-op requires you to take their landline to get 
DSL, we get %95 of our customers who do not want their POS landline and use 
their cell phone, but the barriers are still there!

Scottie
-- Original Message --
From: Butch Evans <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: WISPA General List 
Date:  Mon, 24 Nov 2008 22:18:48 -0600 (CST)

>On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, Mike Hammett wrote:
>
>>Where has the innovation in the last few years gone?
>
>How many in this industry bitch and moan over the cost of gear?  How 
>many would purchase an AP at under $200 and STILL think that's too 
>high?  How many in this industry are willing to purchase something 
>JUST BECAUSE IT IS CHEAPER?  Look at how many people in this 
>industry are using DSL as a transport to the Internet.
>
>Answer THOSE questions and you'll begin the see the answer to YOUR 
>question.  The problem isn't just "us".  The "big boys" have been 
>busy trying to drive pricing levels down in an attempt to "buy the 
>market".  And too many of "us" have decided that we have to compete 
>on price alone, so we found ways to cut cost by buying cheaper gear 
>(there are 2 WISPs within a 30 minute drive of my house that are 
>selling service using Linksys gear for APs).  There is at least 3 
>WISPs whose service would cover my house that have DSL for their 
>internet connection.  I'm not condemming the practice as much as I 
>am attempting to illustrate WHY the innovation is leaving the 
>industry.  It is NOT gone.  It just doesn't exist in the price range 
>that MOST people are willing to pay (WISPs, that is).
>
>-- 
>
>* Butch Evans  * Professional Network Consultation*
>* http://www.butchevans.com/   * Network Engineering  *
>* http://www.wispa.org/* WISPA Board Member   *
>* http://blog.butchevans.com/  * Wired or Wireless Networks   *
>
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Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information

[Chuck McCown - 3]

Amen, nobody ever said you could build it and rest on your laurels.
No small business is safe from changes that come with time.
Evolve or die.  I am not going to sit around complaining the sky is falling.

> So the cost to meet the future needs of our subscribers is real, it's
> not as hard to swallow as one might think. If they preplan and have a
> good investment stratery it should be business as usuall.
>
> George




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Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information

[Mike Hammett]

My numbers are a couple years old, but I'll throw them out there...

$300k for a 20 year IRU on fiber into 3 major carrier hotels in Chicago.
$20k to bring the fiber to my NOC from the route.
$20k - $30k for all optics, routers, etc.

$500/month per carrier hotel for space.
$0 - $500/month per cross connect.
$500/month per exchange to join, though not necessary for private peering 
(direct link to the carrier's gear instead of going to a public switch)

At that stage, I'd have connectivity to the following networks:

CIFNet
GoWebMan
Limelight (both exchanges)
Alentus
Alpha Red
Atlantic Metro
BitGravity
Honeycomb
ISC
Mzima (International carrier)
OpenDNS
Packet Clearing House
Steadfast
Tiscali (International carrier)
Ubiquity (not the same we all know)
Voxel (International carrier)
WBS Connect (International carrier)
WV Fiber (International carrier)
Your.org

Akamai and Google are in the process of connecting.


Obviously not necessary for my current operations, but a good value if I had 
many of your networks where I am.




-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com



--
From: "Sam Tetherow" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 7:54 PM
To: "WISPA General List" 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information

> So how much would 10GigE be to your NOC?
>
>Sam Tetherow
>Sandhills Wireless
>
> Mike Hammett wrote:
>> Depends on where it's coming from.  As I said, a 10 GigE to the CDNs 
>> (which
>> is where most of the bandwidth is going to be going these days), the 
>> price
>> is just equipment and cross connects.  Public Peering with route servers
>> (depending on the exchange) gets you 10 GigE for $500 (definitely not
>> Equinix).
>>
>> There are transport costs, but 10GigE equipment isn't THAT expensive.
>>
>> I'm not saying it's free, but it's damn cheap.
>>
>> People will use pay as you go to reduce usage of their antiquated 
>> equipment
>> instead of cost recovery for better gear and MRC.
>>
>>
>> -
>> Mike Hammett
>> Intelligent Computing Solutions
>> http://www.ics-il.com
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> From: "Sam Tetherow" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 1:50 PM
>> To: "WISPA General List" 
>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
>>
>>
>>> Mike Hammett wrote:
>>>
>>>> The billing model is irrelevant if the gear can't do it in the first
>>>> place.
>>>> You could charge $10/megabyte transferred and it would be meaningless 
>>>> if
>>>> you
>>>> can't deliver what the customer wants.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Wants and willing to pay for a two different things.  I want a AC Cobra
>>> and I want to be able to drive it as fast I can on the highway, however
>>> I'm not ready to pay for either ;)  I have always said I can deliver
>>> what the customer wants if the customer is willing to pay for it.
>>>
>>>
>>>> Yes, the standard billing model needs to change, but using it as an
>>>> artificial barrier isn't exactly the best thing to do, even if it is 
>>>> the
>>>> only thing you can do at this time.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> I don't see how charging by the bit is an artificial barrier.  Do you
>>> think charging for gas by the gallon is an artificial barrier?  As ISPs
>>> we have a commodity that we sell, bandwidth.  We pay a fixed price for
>>> that bandwidth and then resell that bandwidth to our customers at a
>>> markup to cover operating expense and a reasonable return on investment.
>>>
>>> Charging a customer by their actually usage is the most 'real' method of
>>> billing.  In fact the unlimited model is the artificial one that is used
>>> to entice people into buying.  If the customer always fully utilized
>>> their $30/month worth of bandwidth you would go broke.
>>>
>>>> It would be silly for fiber based networks to charge for usage at this
>>>> time.
>>>> They have no practical capacity limits.  Go ahead, pull 100 mbit/s on
>>>> your
>>>> $75/month account...  it costs them almost nil on a recurring basis
>>>> because
>>>> of 10GE connections to the CDNs...  limelight, akami, Youtube, etc.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> There is always a practical limit.  Are you

Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information

[Mike Hammett]

Obviously my other mail hadn't made it to the list when you sent that, but 
I'd estimate you'd only have to string (aerial is significantly cheaper and 
has less incidents per mile) 20 miles...  you can buy the other 160 or what 
have you.


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com



--
From: "Butch Evans" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 10:50 PM
To: "WISPA General List" 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information

> On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, Chuck McCown - 3 wrote:
>
>>What I have done, you can do too. Just takes lots of time and work
>>and bootstrapping.
>
> Ok..so we're gonna put this whole netflix thing on hold for the next
> 20 years so that I can bury enough fiber to support it?  It seems
> that you are trying to make a point that is not related in any way
> to the NetFlix discussion at all (as the subject line would
> indicate).  I'm not minimizing your accomplishments.  I think that
> it says a LOT about you AND this country that you could accomplish
> that.  I am, however, still stuck with the reality that a LARGE part
> of rural America faces.  There is simply not enough bandwidth
> available at affordable prices to support the kind of requirements
> that we are discussing.  Sure, I could bury a 180 mile long fiber to
> St. Louis, but I seriously doubt anyone would call THAT affordable
> bandwidth.
>
> -- 
> 
> * Butch Evans * Professional Network Consultation*
> * http://www.butchevans.com/ * Network Engineering*
> * http://www.wispa.org/ * WISPA Board Member*
> * http://blog.butchevans.com/ * Wired or Wireless Networks*
> 
>
>
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Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information

[Mike Hammett]

I think he's saying that no one has tried hard enough to do it in every 
part...  People like Chuck are here and there, but few are putting forth the 
serious amount of effort to make it happen.

I think in the years coming, the average WISP will be significantly larger 
than they are now...  not through organic growth, but through acquisition. 
Within a 1 hour's drive from me there's at least a half dozen WISPs with 
customer counts in the thousands.  I believe one has 5k and another has 7k.

In my area, a WISP with 500 customers should have fiber into the carrier 
hotels.  Perhaps in south eastern MO, a WISP would need to have 5k customers 
to make the haul to St. Louis or Memphis...  Actually, bad example, there's 
dark fiber available between St. Louis and Memphis  though I forget it's 
exact path in your area.

My point is that companies will start consolidating to both be able to take 
advantage of those fiber routes and once they have the fiber, to put more 
cash in their pockets.


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com



--
From: "Butch Evans" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 10:36 PM
To: "WISPA General List" 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information

> On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, Chuck McCown - 3 wrote:
>
>>Check out Garrison Utah or Burbank Nevada.  Doesn't get much more
>>rural than that. Of course I have spent the most part of the last
>>20 years slowly building a fiber and microwave network to get to
>>all these areas.
>
> 1. I never said that you can't get those kinds of access for
> reasonable prices in ANY part of rural America.
>
> 2. You are quoting "micro economics" in a "macro economics"
> discussion.  Put another way, you are using personal experience
> under the assumption that it somehow relates to the "rest of the
> world"...it doesn't.
>
>
>
> -- 
> 
> * Butch Evans * Professional Network Consultation*
> * http://www.butchevans.com/ * Network Engineering*
> * http://www.wispa.org/ * WISPA Board Member*
> * http://blog.butchevans.com/ * Wired or Wireless Networks*
> 
>
>
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Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information

[George Rogato]

Dennis Burgess - LinkTechs.net wrote:
> Simple as this...
> 
> Even if you can supply this bandwidth..
> 
> 1.  Avg Customer usage goes up.
> 2.  Over subscription rate goes down.
> 3.  Network costs go up to meet increased demand
> 4.  Per Sub costs go up due to the higher usage
> 5.  Profit per sub goes down.
> 
> Increase back-end costs but no increase in profit = Bankrupt Company
> 
> Or you can..
> 
> 1.  Avg Customer Usage goes up
> 2.  Network costs go up
> 3.  Avg cost per sub goes up
> 4.  Pass cost onto customer
> 
> Regardless, its business 101.  If your costs put you into a position 
> that your existing pricing don't make enough money, you have to, reduce 
> costs, or increase income.  The idea is how to do this without loosing 
> customers (some you will anyways).  But as Sam said, loose the high end 
> customers that use your network and keep on trucking.  Comcast I think 
> did this a while back, dumping around 2000 subscribers, due to their 
> usage!   Why do you think also sat connections have that FAP, cause they 
> can't just "upgrade" their backhauls etc  Its a major expense.
> 
> One argument that I have had people tell me, is that the ISP should know 
> this is coming and should have planned for it.  Cost of doing business.  
> I don't think that is true, a small increase in usage yes, but we are 
> talking tripling otherwise low usage connections, if not more. 
> 
> --
> * Dennis Burgess, CCNA, A+, Mikrotik Certified Trainer
> WISPA Board Member - wispa.org 
> Link Technologies, Inc -- Mikrotik & WISP Support Services*
> *Office*: 314-735-0270 *Website*: http://www.linktechs.net 
> 
> 
> */ Link Technologies, Inc is offering LIVE Mikrotik On-Line Training 
> /*


I think the idea that we will charge more for the internet in the future 
is not likely.

Although it is true that we will have to add capacity at a cost to us, 
it's also true that most wisps are continuously building out anyways. We 
add towers, ap's new backhauls routers and servers continously.

It's also true that any wisp who has been around longer than a few years 
knows there is additional costs that start ups may not typically think 
about, replacing existing equipment.

If you look back 5 years ago and was looking for a high capacity PtP 
link, it was a lot more money for less bits. Our bandwidth costs were 
much higher, and some of our labor expenses were higher. Ie; how much 
did a good programer cost 10 years ago?, how about 5? today. most likely 
less.
I've watched my cost fall dramatically over the past 10 years, it's one 
of the bright spots of this industry. What I do with my new found 
savings is reinvest in my network.

So the cost to meet the future needs of our subscribers is real, it's 
not as hard to swallow as one might think. If they preplan and have a 
good investment stratery it should be business as usuall.

George




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Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information

[Chuck McCown - 3]

Why not deploy some dragonwave and other high capacity backbone and build 
your own network to cheap BW.
Build to St. Louis with a large microwave backbone and you will wholesale 
all along its entire length.  More than enough to pay for it.

- Original Message - 
From: "Butch Evans" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 9:50 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information


> On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, Chuck McCown - 3 wrote:
>
>>What I have done, you can do too. Just takes lots of time and work
>>and bootstrapping.
>
> Ok..so we're gonna put this whole netflix thing on hold for the next
> 20 years so that I can bury enough fiber to support it?  It seems
> that you are trying to make a point that is not related in any way
> to the NetFlix discussion at all (as the subject line would
> indicate).  I'm not minimizing your accomplishments.  I think that
> it says a LOT about you AND this country that you could accomplish
> that.  I am, however, still stuck with the reality that a LARGE part
> of rural America faces.  There is simply not enough bandwidth
> available at affordable prices to support the kind of requirements
> that we are discussing.  Sure, I could bury a 180 mile long fiber to
> St. Louis, but I seriously doubt anyone would call THAT affordable
> bandwidth.
>
> -- 
> 
> * Butch Evans * Professional Network Consultation*
> * http://www.butchevans.com/ * Network Engineering*
> * http://www.wispa.org/ * WISPA Board Member*
> * http://blog.butchevans.com/ * Wired or Wireless Networks*
> 
>
>
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Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information

[Butch Evans]

On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, Chuck McCown - 3 wrote:

>What I have done, you can do too. Just takes lots of time and work 
>and bootstrapping.

Ok..so we're gonna put this whole netflix thing on hold for the next 
20 years so that I can bury enough fiber to support it?  It seems 
that you are trying to make a point that is not related in any way 
to the NetFlix discussion at all (as the subject line would 
indicate).  I'm not minimizing your accomplishments.  I think that 
it says a LOT about you AND this country that you could accomplish 
that.  I am, however, still stuck with the reality that a LARGE part 
of rural America faces.  There is simply not enough bandwidth 
available at affordable prices to support the kind of requirements 
that we are discussing.  Sure, I could bury a 180 mile long fiber to 
St. Louis, but I seriously doubt anyone would call THAT affordable 
bandwidth.

-- 

* Butch Evans   * Professional Network Consultation*
* http://www.butchevans.com/* Network Engineering  *
* http://www.wispa.org/ * WISPA Board Member   *
* http://blog.butchevans.com/   * Wired or Wireless Networks   *




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Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information

[Chuck McCown - 3]

What I have done, you can do too.
Just takes lots of time and work and bootstrapping.

- Original Message - 
From: "Butch Evans" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 9:36 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information


> On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, Chuck McCown - 3 wrote:
>
>>Check out Garrison Utah or Burbank Nevada.  Doesn't get much more
>>rural than that. Of course I have spent the most part of the last
>>20 years slowly building a fiber and microwave network to get to
>>all these areas.
>
> 1. I never said that you can't get those kinds of access for
> reasonable prices in ANY part of rural America.
>
> 2. You are quoting "micro economics" in a "macro economics"
> discussion.  Put another way, you are using personal experience
> under the assumption that it somehow relates to the "rest of the
> world"...it doesn't.
>
>
>
> -- 
> 
> * Butch Evans * Professional Network Consultation*
> * http://www.butchevans.com/ * Network Engineering*
> * http://www.wispa.org/ * WISPA Board Member*
> * http://blog.butchevans.com/ * Wired or Wireless Networks*
> 
>
>
> 
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Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information

[Butch Evans]

On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, Chuck McCown - 3 wrote:

>Check out Garrison Utah or Burbank Nevada.  Doesn't get much more 
>rural than that. Of course I have spent the most part of the last 
>20 years slowly building a fiber and microwave network to get to 
>all these areas.

1. I never said that you can't get those kinds of access for 
reasonable prices in ANY part of rural America.

2. You are quoting "micro economics" in a "macro economics" 
discussion.  Put another way, you are using personal experience 
under the assumption that it somehow relates to the "rest of the 
world"...it doesn't.



-- 

* Butch Evans   * Professional Network Consultation*
* http://www.butchevans.com/* Network Engineering  *
* http://www.wispa.org/ * WISPA Board Member   *
* http://blog.butchevans.com/   * Wired or Wireless Networks   *




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Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information

[Chuck McCown - 3]

OK, maybe not for you.  But I am still going to be there trying.  And when it 
fails you can tell me you told me so.
  - Original Message - 
  From: Travis Johnson 
  To: WISPA General List 
  Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 9:24 PM
  Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information


  You can't oversubscribe it by very much. Most people watch TV from 6:00 to 
10:00PM. What happens when they want to watch TV and it just doesn't work? What 
will you do then? It's not that it will just be "slow" or "sluggish" as normal 
internet services can be when oversubscribed, it just will not work. So then 
what?

  Travis
  Microserv

  Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: 
I deliver 100 mbps wholesale to many rural areas for $3-4K/month type of 
figure.
That includes transport.
And stastically, you can oversub it, even with streaming content.
You are never going to have all 20 streaming movies all at the same time.
I am willing to take the chance.  That is how we are building out our 
network.

- Original Message - 
From: "Butch Evans" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 9:06 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information


  On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, Chuck McCown - 3 wrote:

I think the canopy 450 will do something like 30 down and 10 up.
So that could give you 20 simultaneously which statistically could
work if you had 50-100 on an AP.
  Ok, so you have 20 people on one AP pulling 2Meg each which is 40
meg stream.  If you have just 3 towers like that, you will have
120Meg streaming.  At $50/sub, you have 60*50 = $3k/month in
revenue for those that are using that 120Meg.  You'd NEVER get
120Meg delivered to rural America (at least not in MY area) for that
kind of money.  A DS3 here with 45Meg would be around $4500/month
after you include the transport.

What am I missing?  Canopy isn't the answer...the question isn't
JUST the last mile, but the business model overall.  The problem CAN
be solved at the last mile, but when people are demanding streaming
services they will have to understand that $50 commodity service
isn't the answer.  I'd be happy to deliver ANYONE with a dedicated
service level of 2,3 even 10M, but it won't be $50/month.

-- 

* Butch Evans * Professional Network Consultation*
* http://www.butchevans.com/ * Network Engineering*
* http://www.wispa.org/ * WISPA Board Member*
* http://blog.butchevans.com/ * Wired or Wireless Networks*




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Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information

[Chuck McCown - 3]

Check out Garrison Utah or Burbank Nevada.  Doesn't get much more rural than 
that.
Of course I have spent the most part of the last 20 years slowly building a 
fiber and microwave network to get to all these areas.

- Original Message - 
From: "Butch Evans" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 9:24 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information


> On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, Chuck McCown - 3 wrote:
>
>>I deliver 100 mbps wholesale to many rural areas for $3-4K/month
>>type of figure. That includes transport. And stastically, you can
>>oversub it, even with streaming content. You are never going to
>>have all 20 streaming movies all at the same time. I am willing to
>>take the chance.  That is how we are building out our network.
>
> Can you deliver that speed for that price to 802 Stokelan Drive in
> Malden, MO?  If you can, you're the ONLY one who can.
>
> -- 
> 
> * Butch Evans * Professional Network Consultation*
> * http://www.butchevans.com/ * Network Engineering*
> * http://www.wispa.org/ * WISPA Board Member*
> * http://blog.butchevans.com/ * Wired or Wireless Networks*
> 
>
>
> 
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Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information

[Travis Johnson]

You can't oversubscribe it by very much. Most people watch TV from 6:00
to 10:00PM. What happens when they want to watch TV and it just doesn't
work? What will you do then? It's not that it will just be "slow" or
"sluggish" as normal internet services can be when oversubscribed, it
just will not work. So then what?

Travis
Microserv

Chuck McCown - 3 wrote:

  I deliver 100 mbps wholesale to many rural areas for $3-4K/month type of 
figure.
That includes transport.
And stastically, you can oversub it, even with streaming content.
You are never going to have all 20 streaming movies all at the same time.
I am willing to take the chance.  That is how we are building out our 
network.

- Original Message - 
From: "Butch Evans" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 9:06 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information


  
  
On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, Chuck McCown - 3 wrote:



  I think the canopy 450 will do something like 30 down and 10 up.
So that could give you 20 simultaneously which statistically could
work if you had 50-100 on an AP.
  

Ok, so you have 20 people on one AP pulling 2Meg each which is 40
meg stream.  If you have just 3 towers like that, you will have
120Meg streaming.  At $50/sub, you have 60*50 = $3k/month in
revenue for those that are using that 120Meg.  You'd NEVER get
120Meg delivered to rural America (at least not in MY area) for that
kind of money.  A DS3 here with 45Meg would be around $4500/month
after you include the transport.

What am I missing?  Canopy isn't the answer...the question isn't
JUST the last mile, but the business model overall.  The problem CAN
be solved at the last mile, but when people are demanding streaming
services they will have to understand that $50 commodity service
isn't the answer.  I'd be happy to deliver ANYONE with a dedicated
service level of 2,3 even 10M, but it won't be $50/month.

-- 

* Butch Evans * Professional Network Consultation*
* http://www.butchevans.com/ * Network Engineering*
* http://www.wispa.org/ * WISPA Board Member*
* http://blog.butchevans.com/ * Wired or Wireless Networks*




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Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information

[Butch Evans]

On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, Chuck McCown - 3 wrote:

>I deliver 100 mbps wholesale to many rural areas for $3-4K/month 
>type of figure. That includes transport. And stastically, you can 
>oversub it, even with streaming content. You are never going to 
>have all 20 streaming movies all at the same time. I am willing to 
>take the chance.  That is how we are building out our network.

Can you deliver that speed for that price to 802 Stokelan Drive in 
Malden, MO?  If you can, you're the ONLY one who can.

-- 

* Butch Evans   * Professional Network Consultation*
* http://www.butchevans.com/* Network Engineering  *
* http://www.wispa.org/ * WISPA Board Member   *
* http://blog.butchevans.com/   * Wired or Wireless Networks   *




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Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information

[Butch Evans]

On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, Mike Hammett wrote:

>Where has the innovation in the last few years gone?

How many in this industry bitch and moan over the cost of gear?  How 
many would purchase an AP at under $200 and STILL think that's too 
high?  How many in this industry are willing to purchase something 
JUST BECAUSE IT IS CHEAPER?  Look at how many people in this 
industry are using DSL as a transport to the Internet.

Answer THOSE questions and you'll begin the see the answer to YOUR 
question.  The problem isn't just "us".  The "big boys" have been 
busy trying to drive pricing levels down in an attempt to "buy the 
market".  And too many of "us" have decided that we have to compete 
on price alone, so we found ways to cut cost by buying cheaper gear 
(there are 2 WISPs within a 30 minute drive of my house that are 
selling service using Linksys gear for APs).  There is at least 3 
WISPs whose service would cover my house that have DSL for their 
internet connection.  I'm not condemming the practice as much as I 
am attempting to illustrate WHY the innovation is leaving the 
industry.  It is NOT gone.  It just doesn't exist in the price range 
that MOST people are willing to pay (WISPs, that is).

-- 

* Butch Evans   * Professional Network Consultation*
* http://www.butchevans.com/* Network Engineering  *
* http://www.wispa.org/ * WISPA Board Member   *
* http://blog.butchevans.com/   * Wired or Wireless Networks   *




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Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information

[Chuck McCown - 3]

I deliver 100 mbps wholesale to many rural areas for $3-4K/month type of 
figure.
That includes transport.
And stastically, you can oversub it, even with streaming content.
You are never going to have all 20 streaming movies all at the same time.
I am willing to take the chance.  That is how we are building out our 
network.

- Original Message - 
From: "Butch Evans" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 9:06 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information


> On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, Chuck McCown - 3 wrote:
>
>>I think the canopy 450 will do something like 30 down and 10 up.
>>So that could give you 20 simultaneously which statistically could
>>work if you had 50-100 on an AP.
>
> Ok, so you have 20 people on one AP pulling 2Meg each which is 40
> meg stream.  If you have just 3 towers like that, you will have
> 120Meg streaming.  At $50/sub, you have 60*50 = $3k/month in
> revenue for those that are using that 120Meg.  You'd NEVER get
> 120Meg delivered to rural America (at least not in MY area) for that
> kind of money.  A DS3 here with 45Meg would be around $4500/month
> after you include the transport.
>
> What am I missing?  Canopy isn't the answer...the question isn't
> JUST the last mile, but the business model overall.  The problem CAN
> be solved at the last mile, but when people are demanding streaming
> services they will have to understand that $50 commodity service
> isn't the answer.  I'd be happy to deliver ANYONE with a dedicated
> service level of 2,3 even 10M, but it won't be $50/month.
>
> -- 
> 
> * Butch Evans * Professional Network Consultation*
> * http://www.butchevans.com/ * Network Engineering*
> * http://www.wispa.org/ * WISPA Board Member*
> * http://blog.butchevans.com/ * Wired or Wireless Networks*
> 
>
>
> 
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> 
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>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
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Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information

[Butch Evans]

On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, Chuck McCown - 3 wrote:

>I think the canopy 450 will do something like 30 down and 10 up. 
>So that could give you 20 simultaneously which statistically could 
>work if you had 50-100 on an AP.

Ok, so you have 20 people on one AP pulling 2Meg each which is 40 
meg stream.  If you have just 3 towers like that, you will have 
120Meg streaming.  At $50/sub, you have 60*50 = $3k/month in 
revenue for those that are using that 120Meg.  You'd NEVER get 
120Meg delivered to rural America (at least not in MY area) for that 
kind of money.  A DS3 here with 45Meg would be around $4500/month 
after you include the transport.

What am I missing?  Canopy isn't the answer...the question isn't 
JUST the last mile, but the business model overall.  The problem CAN 
be solved at the last mile, but when people are demanding streaming 
services they will have to understand that $50 commodity service 
isn't the answer.  I'd be happy to deliver ANYONE with a dedicated 
service level of 2,3 even 10M, but it won't be $50/month.

-- 

* Butch Evans   * Professional Network Consultation*
* http://www.butchevans.com/* Network Engineering  *
* http://www.wispa.org/ * WISPA Board Member   *
* http://blog.butchevans.com/   * Wired or Wireless Networks   *




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Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information

[Charles Wu (CTI)]

>Best practices tell
>you to build your network for your needs tomorrow, not for today, not for
>yesterday.

Until the cold reality of cash flow and running a profitable business smacks 
you right in the face and then you're stuck trying to keep yesterday's network 
running as long as possible...

-Charles


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Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information

[Mike Hammett]

That's because no one plays Wii or Playstation online...  at least nowhere 
near the same number of people.  I honestly don't know a single person that 
plays Playstation or Wii online, but probably 30 or more that play XBox.


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com



--
From: "Marlon K. Schafer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 9:04 PM
To: "WISPA General List" 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information

> sigh
>
> We've also started getting a lot of calls from our xbox360 subs.  They 
> have
> trouble getting or staying connected.  Me thinks xbox 360 sucks!
>
> NO calls from playstation or wii customers.  Only xbox 360.
>
> I hate ms.
> marlon
>
> - Original Message - 
> From: "Dennis Burgess" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "WISPA General List" 
> Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2008 1:42 PM
> Subject: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
>
>
>> In case you did not know, recently NetFlix and Microsoft teamed up to
>> provide video on-demand services to all of the XBox 360 users.  Not only
>> can you start one of 12,000 videos in a matter of seconds on your
>> computer, but you can also do this right on your Xbox 360, bringing it
>> mainstream for many who have never used it.  Not to mention the super
>> low cost of basically $9 bucks a month!
>>
>> I have been using it for a few weeks and since it came out on the XBox
>> 360 last Wednesday, I have streamed GIGs.  Soon as you hear, gigs, you
>> may be interested to know what is required to maintain a high-end video
>> stream.  So, I put together some numbers for everyone, in case you are
>> interested in how much bandwidth this service uses!   A
>>
>> You can see my data at http://www.linktechs.net/netflix.asp.   Feel free
>> to shoot me a e-mail off-list if you have any questions!
>>
>> --
>> * Dennis Burgess, CCNA, A+, Mikrotik Certified Trainer
>> Link Technologies, Inc -- Mikrotik & WISP Support Services*
>> 314-735-0270
>> http://www.linktechs.net
>> <http://www.linktechs.net/>
>>
>> */ Link Technologies, Inc is offering LIVE Mikrotik On-Line Training
>> <http://www.linktechs.net/onlinetraining.asp>/*
>>
>>
>>
>> 
>> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
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Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information

[Josh Luthman]

I have complaints from both Xbox 360 and PS3.

Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly.
--- Henry Spencer


On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 10:04 PM, Marlon K. Schafer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:

> sigh
>
> We've also started getting a lot of calls from our xbox360 subs.  They have
> trouble getting or staying connected.  Me thinks xbox 360 sucks!
>
> NO calls from playstation or wii customers.  Only xbox 360.
>
> I hate ms.
> marlon
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Dennis Burgess" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "WISPA General List" 
> Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2008 1:42 PM
> Subject: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
>
>
> > In case you did not know, recently NetFlix and Microsoft teamed up to
> > provide video on-demand services to all of the XBox 360 users.  Not only
> > can you start one of 12,000 videos in a matter of seconds on your
> > computer, but you can also do this right on your Xbox 360, bringing it
> > mainstream for many who have never used it.  Not to mention the super
> > low cost of basically $9 bucks a month!
> >
> > I have been using it for a few weeks and since it came out on the XBox
> > 360 last Wednesday, I have streamed GIGs.  Soon as you hear, gigs, you
> > may be interested to know what is required to maintain a high-end video
> > stream.  So, I put together some numbers for everyone, in case you are
> > interested in how much bandwidth this service uses!   A
> >
> > You can see my data at http://www.linktechs.net/netflix.asp.   Feel free
> > to shoot me a e-mail off-list if you have any questions!
> >
> > --
> > * Dennis Burgess, CCNA, A+, Mikrotik Certified Trainer
> > Link Technologies, Inc -- Mikrotik & WISP Support Services*
> > 314-735-0270
> > http://www.linktechs.net
> > 
> >
> > */ Link Technologies, Inc is offering LIVE Mikrotik On-Line Training
> > /*
> >
> >
> >
> >
> 
> > WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> > http://signup.wispa.org/
> >
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>



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Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information

[Marlon K. Schafer]

sigh

We've also started getting a lot of calls from our xbox360 subs.  They have 
trouble getting or staying connected.  Me thinks xbox 360 sucks!

NO calls from playstation or wii customers.  Only xbox 360.

I hate ms.
marlon

- Original Message - 
From: "Dennis Burgess" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2008 1:42 PM
Subject: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information


> In case you did not know, recently NetFlix and Microsoft teamed up to
> provide video on-demand services to all of the XBox 360 users.  Not only
> can you start one of 12,000 videos in a matter of seconds on your
> computer, but you can also do this right on your Xbox 360, bringing it
> mainstream for many who have never used it.  Not to mention the super
> low cost of basically $9 bucks a month!
>
> I have been using it for a few weeks and since it came out on the XBox
> 360 last Wednesday, I have streamed GIGs.  Soon as you hear, gigs, you
> may be interested to know what is required to maintain a high-end video
> stream.  So, I put together some numbers for everyone, in case you are
> interested in how much bandwidth this service uses!   A
>
> You can see my data at http://www.linktechs.net/netflix.asp.   Feel free
> to shoot me a e-mail off-list if you have any questions!
>
> --
> * Dennis Burgess, CCNA, A+, Mikrotik Certified Trainer
> Link Technologies, Inc -- Mikrotik & WISP Support Services*
> 314-735-0270
> http://www.linktechs.net
> 
>
> */ Link Technologies, Inc is offering LIVE Mikrotik On-Line Training
> /*
>
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> 
>
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>
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Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information

[Sam Tetherow]

So how much would 10GigE be to your NOC?

Sam Tetherow
Sandhills Wireless

Mike Hammett wrote:
> Depends on where it's coming from.  As I said, a 10 GigE to the CDNs (which 
> is where most of the bandwidth is going to be going these days), the price 
> is just equipment and cross connects.  Public Peering with route servers 
> (depending on the exchange) gets you 10 GigE for $500 (definitely not 
> Equinix).
>
> There are transport costs, but 10GigE equipment isn't THAT expensive.
>
> I'm not saying it's free, but it's damn cheap.
>
> People will use pay as you go to reduce usage of their antiquated equipment 
> instead of cost recovery for better gear and MRC.
>
>
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions
> http://www.ics-il.com
>
>
>
> --
> From: "Sam Tetherow" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 1:50 PM
> To: "WISPA General List" 
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
>
>   
>> Mike Hammett wrote:
>> 
>>> The billing model is irrelevant if the gear can't do it in the first 
>>> place.
>>> You could charge $10/megabyte transferred and it would be meaningless if 
>>> you
>>> can't deliver what the customer wants.
>>>
>>>   
>> Wants and willing to pay for a two different things.  I want a AC Cobra
>> and I want to be able to drive it as fast I can on the highway, however
>> I'm not ready to pay for either ;)  I have always said I can deliver
>> what the customer wants if the customer is willing to pay for it.
>>
>> 
>>> Yes, the standard billing model needs to change, but using it as an
>>> artificial barrier isn't exactly the best thing to do, even if it is the
>>> only thing you can do at this time.
>>>
>>>   
>> I don't see how charging by the bit is an artificial barrier.  Do you
>> think charging for gas by the gallon is an artificial barrier?  As ISPs
>> we have a commodity that we sell, bandwidth.  We pay a fixed price for
>> that bandwidth and then resell that bandwidth to our customers at a
>> markup to cover operating expense and a reasonable return on investment.
>>
>> Charging a customer by their actually usage is the most 'real' method of
>> billing.  In fact the unlimited model is the artificial one that is used
>> to entice people into buying.  If the customer always fully utilized
>> their $30/month worth of bandwidth you would go broke.
>> 
>>> It would be silly for fiber based networks to charge for usage at this 
>>> time.
>>> They have no practical capacity limits.  Go ahead, pull 100 mbit/s on 
>>> your
>>> $75/month account...  it costs them almost nil on a recurring basis 
>>> because
>>> of 10GE connections to the CDNs...  limelight, akami, Youtube, etc.
>>>
>>>   
>> There is always a practical limit.  Are you telling me that fiber
>> providers are paying $0.75/mbit/s for their upstream?
>>
>>Sam Tetherow
>>Sandhills Wireless
>>
>> 
>>> Networks would rather you pull 100 megs from a CDN because of the high
>>> capacity low price links to them, instead of going over peering sessions
>>> with other networks, which usually have more contractual restriction.
>>>
>>> Let me restate the issue...  There is almost zero cost in connecting to 
>>> the
>>> networks that house the big bandwidth intensive sites.
>>>
>>>
>>> -
>>> Mike Hammett
>>> Intelligent Computing Solutions
>>> http://www.ics-il.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> From: "Sam Tetherow" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>> Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 12:50 PM
>>> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "WISPA General List" 
>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
>>>
>>>
>>>   
>>>> I couldn't imagine how the logistics of this would work.  What makes
>>>> sense is if your customer uses more bandwidth, then they pay for it.
>>>> Everything else is just an inefficient way to do the same.
>>>>
>>>> Lets say you are going to charge $150/Mb/month for 95% usage (just
>>>> picked a number).  If the customer pays the bill for their usage 100%
>>>> comes to you.  Now lets say that we have 

Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information

[Mike Hammett]

Depends on where it's coming from.  As I said, a 10 GigE to the CDNs (which 
is where most of the bandwidth is going to be going these days), the price 
is just equipment and cross connects.  Public Peering with route servers 
(depending on the exchange) gets you 10 GigE for $500 (definitely not 
Equinix).

There are transport costs, but 10GigE equipment isn't THAT expensive.

I'm not saying it's free, but it's damn cheap.

People will use pay as you go to reduce usage of their antiquated equipment 
instead of cost recovery for better gear and MRC.


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com



--
From: "Sam Tetherow" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 1:50 PM
To: "WISPA General List" 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information

> Mike Hammett wrote:
>> The billing model is irrelevant if the gear can't do it in the first 
>> place.
>> You could charge $10/megabyte transferred and it would be meaningless if 
>> you
>> can't deliver what the customer wants.
>>
> Wants and willing to pay for a two different things.  I want a AC Cobra
> and I want to be able to drive it as fast I can on the highway, however
> I'm not ready to pay for either ;)  I have always said I can deliver
> what the customer wants if the customer is willing to pay for it.
>
>> Yes, the standard billing model needs to change, but using it as an
>> artificial barrier isn't exactly the best thing to do, even if it is the
>> only thing you can do at this time.
>>
> I don't see how charging by the bit is an artificial barrier.  Do you
> think charging for gas by the gallon is an artificial barrier?  As ISPs
> we have a commodity that we sell, bandwidth.  We pay a fixed price for
> that bandwidth and then resell that bandwidth to our customers at a
> markup to cover operating expense and a reasonable return on investment.
>
> Charging a customer by their actually usage is the most 'real' method of
> billing.  In fact the unlimited model is the artificial one that is used
> to entice people into buying.  If the customer always fully utilized
> their $30/month worth of bandwidth you would go broke.
>> It would be silly for fiber based networks to charge for usage at this 
>> time.
>> They have no practical capacity limits.  Go ahead, pull 100 mbit/s on 
>> your
>> $75/month account...  it costs them almost nil on a recurring basis 
>> because
>> of 10GE connections to the CDNs...  limelight, akami, Youtube, etc.
>>
> There is always a practical limit.  Are you telling me that fiber
> providers are paying $0.75/mbit/s for their upstream?
>
>Sam Tetherow
>Sandhills Wireless
>
>> Networks would rather you pull 100 megs from a CDN because of the high
>> capacity low price links to them, instead of going over peering sessions
>> with other networks, which usually have more contractual restriction.
>>
>> Let me restate the issue...  There is almost zero cost in connecting to 
>> the
>> networks that house the big bandwidth intensive sites.
>>
>>
>> -
>> Mike Hammett
>> Intelligent Computing Solutions
>> http://www.ics-il.com
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> From: "Sam Tetherow" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 12:50 PM
>> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "WISPA General List" 
>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
>>
>>
>>> I couldn't imagine how the logistics of this would work.  What makes
>>> sense is if your customer uses more bandwidth, then they pay for it.
>>> Everything else is just an inefficient way to do the same.
>>>
>>> Lets say you are going to charge $150/Mb/month for 95% usage (just
>>> picked a number).  If the customer pays the bill for their usage 100%
>>> comes to you.  Now lets say that we have come up with some efficient
>>> scheme to accurately bill the various content providers for their
>>> 'usage'.  If we need $150/Mb/month and bill at that rate to say Netflix,
>>> do you think that Netflix is going to have $0 overhead on accounts
>>> payable for that bill?  Do you think they are going to take a loss on
>>> that expense?  So it is going to cost the end customer $150/Mb/month+$x.
>>>
>>> This cost will be averaged out to each customer based on total usage.
>>> As the service becomes more popular then the price is going to go up.
>>> Wait, doesn'

Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information

[Dennis Burgess - LinkTechs.net]

Yep. And I would agree there.  I also think, WISPs, and even cable cos 
have the issue that the technology will limit their ability to take this 
increase rapidly.  

--
* Dennis Burgess, CCNA, A+, Mikrotik Certified Trainer
WISPA Board Member - wispa.org 
Link Technologies, Inc -- Mikrotik & WISP Support Services*
*Office*: 314-735-0270 *Website*: http://www.linktechs.net 


*/ Link Technologies, Inc is offering LIVE Mikrotik On-Line Training 
/*



Drew Lentz wrote:
> This is the statement that got me:
>   
>> One argument that I have had people tell me, is that the ISP should know
>> this is coming and should have planned for it.
>> 
>
> Whether it is through watching the amount of bandwidth used over periods of
> time as a trend or doing market research to find out what is coming down the
> line in technology, this statement holds pretty strong. Best practices tell
> you to build your network for your needs tomorrow, not for today, not for
> yesterday.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> 
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Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information

[Drew Lentz]

This is the statement that got me:
> One argument that I have had people tell me, is that the ISP should know
> this is coming and should have planned for it.

Whether it is through watching the amount of bandwidth used over periods of
time as a trend or doing market research to find out what is coming down the
line in technology, this statement holds pretty strong. Best practices tell
you to build your network for your needs tomorrow, not for today, not for
yesterday.







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Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information

[Dennis Burgess - LinkTechs.net]

The local Gas Co here has "budget billing"  The bill changes ever 4 
months.  During the winter its low, and the summer its way high, why.  
Winter we use it to heat with, normally I would have 300-400 bills, for 
a few months, but the summer we only use it for cooking, so it would be 
30-40 bucks!  with that I pay around 80-90 bucks a month normally.  I 
guarantee I am paying for ALL of the gas used!  Just spreading it out 
over a number of months.I'm sure though, some months I am ahead, I 
have credit for unused gas, and some months I owe for.

--
* Dennis Burgess, CCNA, A+, Mikrotik Certified Trainer
WISPA Board Member - wispa.org 
Link Technologies, Inc -- Mikrotik & WISP Support Services*
*Office*: 314-735-0270 *Website*: http://www.linktechs.net 


*/ Link Technologies, Inc is offering LIVE Mikrotik On-Line Training 
/*



Matt wrote:
>> My telephone service is unlimited (home landline with Qwest) and could be
>> unlimited cell phone with AT&T or Sprint. My water is unlimited.
>> 
>
> There is almost always 'fine print' in these unlimited plans.
> Unlimited long distance is almost always not completely unlimited.
>
>   
>> People want "unlimited" service so they don't have to guess what their bill
>> is going to be. Even my electricity and gas bills can be setup as
>> "level-pay" so they are the same each month. The general public does NOT
>> 
>
> Level pay is not unlimited.  No where close.
>
> Matt
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
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> 
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Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information

[Dennis Burgess - LinkTechs.net]

ped 
>>> with overage on cell service. 
>>>
>>> Sam Tetherow
>>> Sandhills Wireless
>>>
>>>
>>> Travis Johnson wrote:
>>>   
>>>   
>>>> Honestly, I don't ever see the model changing to metered billing. 
>>>> Telephone service isn't that way. Water service (in my area at least) 
>>>> isn't that way. And yes, some have started, but with 250GB monthly 
>>>> caps, it's not really even a cap.
>>>>
>>>> Travis
>>>> Microserv
>>>>
>>>> Sam Tetherow wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> I couldn't imagine how the logistics of this would work.  What makes 
>>>>> sense is if your customer uses more bandwidth, then they pay for it.  
>>>>> Everything else is just an inefficient way to do the same.
>>>>>
>>>>> Lets say you are going to charge $150/Mb/month for 95% usage (just 
>>>>> picked a number).  If the customer pays the bill for their usage 100% 
>>>>> comes to you.  Now lets say that we have come up with some efficient 
>>>>> scheme to accurately bill the various content providers for their 
>>>>> 'usage'.  If we need $150/Mb/month and bill at that rate to say Netflix, 
>>>>> do you think that Netflix is going to have $0 overhead on accounts 
>>>>> payable for that bill?  Do you think they are going to take a loss on 
>>>>> that expense?  So it is going to cost the end customer $150/Mb/month+$x. 
>>>>>
>>>>> This cost will be averaged out to each customer based on total usage.  
>>>>> As the service becomes more popular then the price is going to go up.  
>>>>> Wait, doesn't this sound familiar?  The problem with selling a commodity 
>>>>> is that supply and demand laws do apply.  The more the demand the less 
>>>>> the supply.  We don't get economy of scale savings in last mile on 
>>>>> wireless gear.  We have a very finite amount of bandwidth we can 
>>>>> effectively deliver from an AP/tower.
>>>>>
>>>>> Marlon is the one ahead of the curve on this one (and all the others 
>>>>> that have been billing based on usage already).  This is most likely 
>>>>> where we are going to end up.  I don't necessarily think it will be down 
>>>>> to $x/GB transfer it will at least be tiered service similar to cell 
>>>>> phone plans today.
>>>>>
>>>>> Where WISPs run into the issue is in the short term.  We have to survive 
>>>>> the market until the billing model changes.  Eventually Cable and Telco 
>>>>> (and even Fiber at some point) is going to have to switch from unlimited 
>>>>> to some form of metered (Comcast and Time Warner are already testing 
>>>>> this model).  They just have the advantage of having better last mile 
>>>>> bandwidth than we do and they generally get better upstream pricing.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sam Tetherow
>>>>> Sandhills Wireless
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Scottie Arnett wrote:
>>>>>   
>>>>>   
>>>>>   
>>>>>> I read about a model somewhere that might work. The content providers 
>>>>>> paid the ISP a percentage for delivery of the content. Now I might could 
>>>>>> live with that if the economics worked out.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Scottie
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -- Original Message --
>>>>>> From: "John Scrivner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>>>>> Reply-To: WISPA General List 
>>>>>> Date:  Mon, 24 Nov 2008 10:11:04 -0600
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I think we will eventually see people just leave constant streams open 
>>>>>>> day
>>>>>>> and night. How many of you leave your TV on much of the time whether 
>>>>>>> you are
>>>>>>> watching it or not? This throws off the over-subscription model which
>>>>>>> relates to how many people are using the service at one time. When we 
&

Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information

[Matt]

> My telephone service is unlimited (home landline with Qwest) and could be
> unlimited cell phone with AT&T or Sprint. My water is unlimited.

There is almost always 'fine print' in these unlimited plans.
Unlimited long distance is almost always not completely unlimited.

> People want "unlimited" service so they don't have to guess what their bill
> is going to be. Even my electricity and gas bills can be setup as
> "level-pay" so they are the same each month. The general public does NOT

Level pay is not unlimited.  No where close.

Matt



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Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information

[Sam Tetherow]

;> wireless gear.  We have a very finite amount of bandwidth we can 
>>>> effectively deliver from an AP/tower.
>>>>
>>>> Marlon is the one ahead of the curve on this one (and all the others 
>>>> that have been billing based on usage already).  This is most likely 
>>>> where we are going to end up.  I don't necessarily think it will be down 
>>>> to $x/GB transfer it will at least be tiered service similar to cell 
>>>> phone plans today.
>>>>
>>>> Where WISPs run into the issue is in the short term.  We have to survive 
>>>> the market until the billing model changes.  Eventually Cable and Telco 
>>>> (and even Fiber at some point) is going to have to switch from unlimited 
>>>> to some form of metered (Comcast and Time Warner are already testing 
>>>> this model).  They just have the advantage of having better last mile 
>>>> bandwidth than we do and they generally get better upstream pricing.
>>>>
>>>> Sam Tetherow
>>>> Sandhills Wireless
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Scottie Arnett wrote:
>>>>   
>>>>   
>>>>> I read about a model somewhere that might work. The content providers 
>>>>> paid the ISP a percentage for delivery of the content. Now I might could 
>>>>> live with that if the economics worked out.
>>>>>
>>>>> Scottie
>>>>>
>>>>> -- Original Message --
>>>>> From: "John Scrivner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>>>> Reply-To: WISPA General List 
>>>>> Date:  Mon, 24 Nov 2008 10:11:04 -0600
>>>>>
>>>>>   
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>> I think we will eventually see people just leave constant streams open 
>>>>>> day
>>>>>> and night. How many of you leave your TV on much of the time whether you 
>>>>>> are
>>>>>> watching it or not? This throws off the over-subscription model which
>>>>>> relates to how many people are using the service at one time. When we 
>>>>>> start
>>>>>> seeing all channels available at all times via Internet with some common
>>>>>> interface (Netflix, Tivo, Windows Media Player, Real Player, Quicktime,
>>>>>> etc.) then we will have this problem to contend with as well.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I hope content providers start making all of their content interactive 
>>>>>> such
>>>>>> that viewers have to click something (like ads) from time to time to
>>>>>> maintain the free TV service. This would help them to sell their ads at a
>>>>>> premium and would provide an automatic "off" button for the stream when
>>>>>> people walk away from the "TV" and do not click something once in a 
>>>>>> while to
>>>>>> prove they are watching the content and commercials.
>>>>>> Scriv
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 8:46 AM, Chuck McCown - 3 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>   
>>>>>>   
>>>>>>> I think the canopy 450 will do something like 30 down and 10 up.  So 
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>> could give you 20 simultaneously which statistically could work if you 
>>>>>>> had
>>>>>>> 50-100 on an AP.
>>>>>>>   - Original Message -
>>>>>>>  From: Travis Johnson
>>>>>>>   To: WISPA General List
>>>>>>>  Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 7:30 AM
>>>>>>>  Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   You have hit the problem directly on the head. You think a simple 
>>>>>>> Canopy
>>>>>>> AP is going to solve the problem? Let's say you are allocating 10Mbps
>>>>>>> downlink on this AP... that would mean 5 customers per AP (@ 2Mbps 
>>>>>>> each).
>>>>>>> Nobody in this market can survive on those ratios.
>>>>>>>
>>>

Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information

[Travis Johnson]

uld provide an automatic "off" button for the stream when
people walk away from the "TV" and do not click something once in a while to
prove they are watching the content and commercials.
Scriv


On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 8:46 AM, Chuck McCown - 3 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


  
  
  
I think the canopy 450 will do something like 30 down and 10 up.  So that
could give you 20 simultaneously which statistically could work if you had
50-100 on an AP.
  - Original Message -----
 From: Travis Johnson
  To: WISPA General List
 Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 7:30 AM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information


  You have hit the problem directly on the head. You think a simple Canopy
AP is going to solve the problem? Let's say you are allocating 10Mbps
downlink on this AP... that would mean 5 customers per AP (@ 2Mbps each).
Nobody in this market can survive on those ratios.

 This service needs capped and people that want it can pay for "video
streaming" which is $100/month extra... that would be my vote.

 Travis
 Microserv

 Drew Lentz wrote:
In areas like yours, though, some would argue that is the perfect place for
some type of licensed LTE/WiMAX type of service. Even with a Canopy type
service it would beat down the doors of the telco offering only 3Mbps of
service. As more and more devices have bandwidth requirements, the service
providers will fall into line, I believe.

Everyone has always pushed for more bandwidth, but it as always come from
the customers as opposed to the devices. It seems like now, the device
requirements will leave the customer with no choice and force them into a
decision of higher consumption.

As far as furthering the digital divide, I don't think it will hurt it all
that bad. On the contrary what would be nice to see is the communications
mediums becoming less expensive because of the amount of services required.
Just like the price of bandwidth has changed over the years, I think it
will
continue to drop. I would love to see some research data on the cost per MB
over the last 10 years and see what the trend is like.

That combined with less expensive and functional equipment (UBNT's Bullet,
the introduction of Mikrotik years ago, for examples) gives operators the
ability to put more bandwidth than before in users hands at a fraction of
the cost.

I think more than anything it will come down to a backhaul battle. Fiber to
the node, fiber to the AP, high capacity microwave links (Bridgewave,
Dragonwave, Ceragon, etc) These are all going to be critically important to
aggregate and transport these huge amounts of data.




On 11/24/08 1:06 AM, "Scottie Arnett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

 It will further the digital divide. Rural remote locations will be again
left
in the boon docks. Where I live, 3 meg DSL is the fastest available
connection
at $75/mth. Cheapest T1 here is over $600/mth, and fiber? forget it, can't
get
it unless you want to build about 4 towers just to backhaul, or pay
$1200/mth
for each cell tower to put them on.

Why should the small ISP's foot the bill for Netflix and these companies
that
are making million's of dollars more than we are?

Scottie

-- Original Message --
From: Drew Lentz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: WISPA General List 
Date:  Mon, 24 Nov 2008 00:41:41 -0600

   I'm all for open systems. Limiting the amount of bandwidth at any level
is,
to me, a terrible thing to do. I understand that it doesn't necessarily fit
the model as it applies to today's business for many ISPs, but, maybe its
time to change the model.

This is where the separation of providers starts to take shape. The
networks
that can handle these loads and supply the end-user are going to win the
customers. I honestly think the demand of large scale bandwidth is going to
be fed to the end-user by the consumer electronics market. Look at CES last
year. Look how many devices demand connectivity at certain levels. If your
current service provider can't get you what you need, there will always be
someone else who can.

There is some great info here from a recent conference:
http://www4.gsb.columbia.edu/citi/events/summit2008

Take a look at the slides. I like the reference to the slide where it
breaks
down how much bandwidth utilization there is expected to be per household:
35+ Mbps (and those are numbers from 2006!)
4 VoIP lines @ 100Kbps
2 SDTVs @ 2Mbps
2 HDTVs @ 9 Mbps
1 Gaming device @ 1Mbps
1 High Spedd Internet @ 10Mbps

Scary how quickly it adds up :)

My favorite quote:
³By the year 2010 bandwidth for 20 homes will generate more traffic than
entire Internet in 1995²

-d


On 11/24/08 12:24 AM, "Butch Evans" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

 On Sun, 23 Nov 2008, Travis Johnson wrote:

   It will be interesting to see how this plays out... the amount of
bandwi

Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information

[Sam Tetherow]

s) from time to time to
>>>> maintain the free TV service. This would help them to sell their ads at a
>>>> premium and would provide an automatic "off" button for the stream when
>>>> people walk away from the "TV" and do not click something once in a while 
>>>> to
>>>> prove they are watching the content and commercials.
>>>> Scriv
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 8:46 AM, Chuck McCown - 3 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> 
>>>>   
>>>>> I think the canopy 450 will do something like 30 down and 10 up.  So that
>>>>> could give you 20 simultaneously which statistically could work if you had
>>>>> 50-100 on an AP.
>>>>>   - Original Message -
>>>>>  From: Travis Johnson
>>>>>   To: WISPA General List
>>>>>  Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 7:30 AM
>>>>>  Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>   You have hit the problem directly on the head. You think a simple Canopy
>>>>> AP is going to solve the problem? Let's say you are allocating 10Mbps
>>>>> downlink on this AP... that would mean 5 customers per AP (@ 2Mbps each).
>>>>> Nobody in this market can survive on those ratios.
>>>>>
>>>>>  This service needs capped and people that want it can pay for "video
>>>>> streaming" which is $100/month extra... that would be my vote.
>>>>>
>>>>>  Travis
>>>>>  Microserv
>>>>>
>>>>>  Drew Lentz wrote:
>>>>> In areas like yours, though, some would argue that is the perfect place 
>>>>> for
>>>>> some type of licensed LTE/WiMAX type of service. Even with a Canopy type
>>>>> service it would beat down the doors of the telco offering only 3Mbps of
>>>>> service. As more and more devices have bandwidth requirements, the service
>>>>> providers will fall into line, I believe.
>>>>>
>>>>> Everyone has always pushed for more bandwidth, but it as always come from
>>>>> the customers as opposed to the devices. It seems like now, the device
>>>>> requirements will leave the customer with no choice and force them into a
>>>>> decision of higher consumption.
>>>>>
>>>>> As far as furthering the digital divide, I don't think it will hurt it all
>>>>> that bad. On the contrary what would be nice to see is the communications
>>>>> mediums becoming less expensive because of the amount of services 
>>>>> required.
>>>>> Just like the price of bandwidth has changed over the years, I think it
>>>>> will
>>>>> continue to drop. I would love to see some research data on the cost per 
>>>>> MB
>>>>> over the last 10 years and see what the trend is like.
>>>>>
>>>>> That combined with less expensive and functional equipment (UBNT's Bullet,
>>>>> the introduction of Mikrotik years ago, for examples) gives operators the
>>>>> ability to put more bandwidth than before in users hands at a fraction of
>>>>> the cost.
>>>>>
>>>>> I think more than anything it will come down to a backhaul battle. Fiber 
>>>>> to
>>>>> the node, fiber to the AP, high capacity microwave links (Bridgewave,
>>>>> Dragonwave, Ceragon, etc) These are all going to be critically important 
>>>>> to
>>>>> aggregate and transport these huge amounts of data.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 11/24/08 1:06 AM, "Scottie Arnett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>  It will further the digital divide. Rural remote locations will be again
>>>>> left
>>>>> in the boon docks. Where I live, 3 meg DSL is the fastest available
>>>>> connection
>>>>> at $75/mth. Cheapest T1 here is over $600/mth, and fiber? forget it, can't
>>>>> get
>>>>> it unless you want to build about 4 towers just to backhaul, or pay
>>>>> $1200/mth
>>>>> for each cell tower to put them on.
>>>>>
>>>>> Why should the small ISP's foot the bill for Netfl

Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information

[Travis Johnson]

Honestly, I don't ever see the model changing to metered billing.
Telephone service isn't that way. Water service (in my area at least)
isn't that way. And yes, some have started, but with 250GB monthly
caps, it's not really even a cap.

Travis
Microserv

Sam Tetherow wrote:

  I couldn't imagine how the logistics of this would work.  What makes 
sense is if your customer uses more bandwidth, then they pay for it.  
Everything else is just an inefficient way to do the same.

Lets say you are going to charge $150/Mb/month for 95% usage (just 
picked a number).  If the customer pays the bill for their usage 100% 
comes to you.  Now lets say that we have come up with some efficient 
scheme to accurately bill the various content providers for their 
'usage'.  If we need $150/Mb/month and bill at that rate to say Netflix, 
do you think that Netflix is going to have $0 overhead on accounts 
payable for that bill?  Do you think they are going to take a loss on 
that expense?  So it is going to cost the end customer $150/Mb/month+$x. 

This cost will be averaged out to each customer based on total usage.  
As the service becomes more popular then the price is going to go up.  
Wait, doesn't this sound familiar?  The problem with selling a commodity 
is that supply and demand laws do apply.  The more the demand the less 
the supply.  We don't get economy of scale savings in last mile on 
wireless gear.  We have a very finite amount of bandwidth we can 
effectively deliver from an AP/tower.

Marlon is the one ahead of the curve on this one (and all the others 
that have been billing based on usage already).  This is most likely 
where we are going to end up.  I don't necessarily think it will be down 
to $x/GB transfer it will at least be tiered service similar to cell 
phone plans today.

Where WISPs run into the issue is in the short term.  We have to survive 
the market until the billing model changes.  Eventually Cable and Telco 
(and even Fiber at some point) is going to have to switch from unlimited 
to some form of metered (Comcast and Time Warner are already testing 
this model).  They just have the advantage of having better last mile 
bandwidth than we do and they generally get better upstream pricing.

Sam Tetherow
Sandhills Wireless





Scottie Arnett wrote:
  
  
I read about a model somewhere that might work. The content providers paid the ISP a percentage for delivery of the content. Now I might could live with that if the economics worked out.

Scottie

-- Original Message --
From: "John Scrivner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: WISPA General List 
Date:  Mon, 24 Nov 2008 10:11:04 -0600

  


  I think we will eventually see people just leave constant streams open day
and night. How many of you leave your TV on much of the time whether you are
watching it or not? This throws off the over-subscription model which
relates to how many people are using the service at one time. When we start
seeing all channels available at all times via Internet with some common
interface (Netflix, Tivo, Windows Media Player, Real Player, Quicktime,
etc.) then we will have this problem to contend with as well.

I hope content providers start making all of their content interactive such
that viewers have to click something (like ads) from time to time to
maintain the free TV service. This would help them to sell their ads at a
premium and would provide an automatic "off" button for the stream when
people walk away from the "TV" and do not click something once in a while to
prove they are watching the content and commercials.
Scriv


On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 8:46 AM, Chuck McCown - 3 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


  
  
I think the canopy 450 will do something like 30 down and 10 up.  So that
could give you 20 simultaneously which statistically could work if you had
50-100 on an AP.
  - Original Message -
 From: Travis Johnson
  To: WISPA General List
 Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 7:30 AM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information


  You have hit the problem directly on the head. You think a simple Canopy
AP is going to solve the problem? Let's say you are allocating 10Mbps
downlink on this AP... that would mean 5 customers per AP (@ 2Mbps each).
Nobody in this market can survive on those ratios.

 This service needs capped and people that want it can pay for "video
streaming" which is $100/month extra... that would be my vote.

 Travis
 Microserv

 Drew Lentz wrote:
In areas like yours, though, some would argue that is the perfect place for
some type of licensed LTE/WiMAX type of service. Even with a Canopy type
service it would beat down the doors of the telco offering only 3Mbps of
service. As more and more devices have bandwidth requirements, the service
providers will fall into line, I believe.

Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information

[Travis Johnson]

But that's what I am saying... I don't think you can over-subscribe 
streaming TV/Movies like you can internet. What happens when someone 
wants to watch TV and it doesn't work because there is no bandwidth 
available? :(

Travis

Chuck McCown - 3 wrote:
> I think the canopy 450 will do something like 30 down and 10 up.  So that 
> could give you 20 simultaneously which statistically could work if you had 
> 50-100 on an AP.
>   - Original Message - 
>   From: Travis Johnson 
>   To: WISPA General List 
>   Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 7:30 AM
>   Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
>
>
>   You have hit the problem directly on the head. You think a simple Canopy AP 
> is going to solve the problem? Let's say you are allocating 10Mbps downlink 
> on this AP... that would mean 5 customers per AP (@ 2Mbps each). Nobody in 
> this market can survive on those ratios.
>
>   This service needs capped and people that want it can pay for "video 
> streaming" which is $100/month extra... that would be my vote.
>
>   Travis
>   Microserv
>
>   Drew Lentz wrote: 
> In areas like yours, though, some would argue that is the perfect place for
> some type of licensed LTE/WiMAX type of service. Even with a Canopy type
> service it would beat down the doors of the telco offering only 3Mbps of
> service. As more and more devices have bandwidth requirements, the service
> providers will fall into line, I believe.
>
> Everyone has always pushed for more bandwidth, but it as always come from
> the customers as opposed to the devices. It seems like now, the device
> requirements will leave the customer with no choice and force them into a
> decision of higher consumption.
>
> As far as furthering the digital divide, I don't think it will hurt it all
> that bad. On the contrary what would be nice to see is the communications
> mediums becoming less expensive because of the amount of services required.
> Just like the price of bandwidth has changed over the years, I think it will
> continue to drop. I would love to see some research data on the cost per MB
> over the last 10 years and see what the trend is like.
>
> That combined with less expensive and functional equipment (UBNT's Bullet,
> the introduction of Mikrotik years ago, for examples) gives operators the
> ability to put more bandwidth than before in users hands at a fraction of
> the cost. 
>
> I think more than anything it will come down to a backhaul battle. Fiber to
> the node, fiber to the AP, high capacity microwave links (Bridgewave,
> Dragonwave, Ceragon, etc) These are all going to be critically important to
> aggregate and transport these huge amounts of data.
>
>   
>
>
> On 11/24/08 1:06 AM, "Scottie Arnett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>   It will further the digital divide. Rural remote locations will be again 
> left
> in the boon docks. Where I live, 3 meg DSL is the fastest available connection
> at $75/mth. Cheapest T1 here is over $600/mth, and fiber? forget it, can't get
> it unless you want to build about 4 towers just to backhaul, or pay $1200/mth
> for each cell tower to put them on.
>
> Why should the small ISP's foot the bill for Netflix and these companies that
> are making million's of dollars more than we are?
>
> Scottie
>
> -- Original Message --
> From: Drew Lentz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Reply-To: WISPA General List 
> Date:  Mon, 24 Nov 2008 00:41:41 -0600
>
> I'm all for open systems. Limiting the amount of bandwidth at any level 
> is,
> to me, a terrible thing to do. I understand that it doesn't necessarily fit
> the model as it applies to today's business for many ISPs, but, maybe its
> time to change the model.
>
> This is where the separation of providers starts to take shape. The networks
> that can handle these loads and supply the end-user are going to win the
> customers. I honestly think the demand of large scale bandwidth is going to
> be fed to the end-user by the consumer electronics market. Look at CES last
> year. Look how many devices demand connectivity at certain levels. If your
> current service provider can't get you what you need, there will always be
> someone else who can.
>
> There is some great info here from a recent conference:
> http://www4.gsb.columbia.edu/citi/events/summit2008
>
> Take a look at the slides. I like the reference to the slide where it breaks
> down how much bandwidth utilization there is expected to be per household:
> 35+ Mbps (and those are numbers from 2006!)
> 4 VoIP lines @ 100Kbps
> 2 SDTVs @ 2Mbps
> 2 HDTVs @ 9 Mbps
> 1 Gaming dev

Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information

[Butch Evans]

On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, Jack Unger wrote:

>Being in favor of not limiting bandwidth may seem very altruistic 
>but I'm not sure you are aware of the bandwidth/throughput 
>limitations of todays wireless equipment used for last mile access. 
>It's not a question of fitting the "business model"; it's a 
>question of fitting today's current technology model. With limited 
>license-free frequency

Jack, you hit this EXACTLY.  I was formulating my own reply around 
this reality when I saw this.  Not much more can be added.

-- 

* Butch Evans   * Professional Network Consultation*
* http://www.butchevans.com/* Network Engineering  *
* http://www.wispa.org/ * WISPA Board Member   *
* http://blog.butchevans.com/   * Wired or Wireless Networks   *




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Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information

[Josh Luthman]

Don't forget VoIP and it's unlimited calling plan versus AT&T and Verizon's
several cents per minute over the last several years.

Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly.
--- Henry Spencer


On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 3:01 PM, Drew Lentz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>
> > Charging a customer by their actually usage is the most 'real' method of
> > billing.  In fact the unlimited model is the artificial one that is used
> > to entice people into buying.  If the customer always fully utilized
> > their $30/month worth of bandwidth you would go broke.
>
> That is a great point. Look at the Cell industry and the push to
> "unlimited"
> plans.
>
>
>
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
>
> 
>
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>
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Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information

[Drew Lentz]

> Charging a customer by their actually usage is the most 'real' method of
> billing.  In fact the unlimited model is the artificial one that is used
> to entice people into buying.  If the customer always fully utilized
> their $30/month worth of bandwidth you would go broke.

That is a great point. Look at the Cell industry and the push to "unlimited"
plans.





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Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information

[Sam Tetherow]

Mike Hammett wrote:
> The billing model is irrelevant if the gear can't do it in the first place. 
> You could charge $10/megabyte transferred and it would be meaningless if you 
> can't deliver what the customer wants.
>   
Wants and willing to pay for a two different things.  I want a AC Cobra 
and I want to be able to drive it as fast I can on the highway, however 
I'm not ready to pay for either ;)  I have always said I can deliver 
what the customer wants if the customer is willing to pay for it.

> Yes, the standard billing model needs to change, but using it as an 
> artificial barrier isn't exactly the best thing to do, even if it is the 
> only thing you can do at this time.
>   
I don't see how charging by the bit is an artificial barrier.  Do you 
think charging for gas by the gallon is an artificial barrier?  As ISPs 
we have a commodity that we sell, bandwidth.  We pay a fixed price for 
that bandwidth and then resell that bandwidth to our customers at a 
markup to cover operating expense and a reasonable return on investment. 

Charging a customer by their actually usage is the most 'real' method of 
billing.  In fact the unlimited model is the artificial one that is used 
to entice people into buying.  If the customer always fully utilized 
their $30/month worth of bandwidth you would go broke.
> It would be silly for fiber based networks to charge for usage at this time. 
> They have no practical capacity limits.  Go ahead, pull 100 mbit/s on your 
> $75/month account...  it costs them almost nil on a recurring basis because 
> of 10GE connections to the CDNs...  limelight, akami, Youtube, etc.
>   
There is always a practical limit.  Are you telling me that fiber 
providers are paying $0.75/mbit/s for their upstream?

Sam Tetherow
Sandhills Wireless

> Networks would rather you pull 100 megs from a CDN because of the high 
> capacity low price links to them, instead of going over peering sessions 
> with other networks, which usually have more contractual restriction.
>
> Let me restate the issue...  There is almost zero cost in connecting to the 
> networks that house the big bandwidth intensive sites.
>
>
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions
> http://www.ics-il.com
>
>
>
> --
> From: "Sam Tetherow" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 12:50 PM
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "WISPA General List" 
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
>
>   
>> I couldn't imagine how the logistics of this would work.  What makes
>> sense is if your customer uses more bandwidth, then they pay for it.
>> Everything else is just an inefficient way to do the same.
>>
>> Lets say you are going to charge $150/Mb/month for 95% usage (just
>> picked a number).  If the customer pays the bill for their usage 100%
>> comes to you.  Now lets say that we have come up with some efficient
>> scheme to accurately bill the various content providers for their
>> 'usage'.  If we need $150/Mb/month and bill at that rate to say Netflix,
>> do you think that Netflix is going to have $0 overhead on accounts
>> payable for that bill?  Do you think they are going to take a loss on
>> that expense?  So it is going to cost the end customer $150/Mb/month+$x.
>>
>> This cost will be averaged out to each customer based on total usage.
>> As the service becomes more popular then the price is going to go up.
>> Wait, doesn't this sound familiar?  The problem with selling a commodity
>> is that supply and demand laws do apply.  The more the demand the less
>> the supply.  We don't get economy of scale savings in last mile on
>> wireless gear.  We have a very finite amount of bandwidth we can
>> effectively deliver from an AP/tower.
>>
>> Marlon is the one ahead of the curve on this one (and all the others
>> that have been billing based on usage already).  This is most likely
>> where we are going to end up.  I don't necessarily think it will be down
>> to $x/GB transfer it will at least be tiered service similar to cell
>> phone plans today.
>>
>> Where WISPs run into the issue is in the short term.  We have to survive
>> the market until the billing model changes.  Eventually Cable and Telco
>> (and even Fiber at some point) is going to have to switch from unlimited
>> to some form of metered (Comcast and Time Warner are already testing
>> this model).  They just have the advantage of having better last mile
>> bandwidth than we do and they generally get better upstream pricing.
>>
>>Sam Tetherow
>>Sa

Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information

[Sam Tetherow]

While there is progress to be made in spectrum efficiency there really 
is a limit of bits/Hz that can be transmitted and once we reach it the 
only option is to get more Hz. Hz are expensive both in terms of 
spectrum available (have to start buying once unlicensed is utilized) 
and equipment.

The equipment cost is not negligible. It is possible to deliver a large 
amount of high quality bandwidth to a large number of customers, just 
ask Matt Liotta. But it is going to cost in terms of "CPE" and "AP". You 
can go to the extreme of PTP links for each customer, but the link cost 
will be high and the tower rent will be even higher.

Sam Tetherow
Sandhills Wireless

Drew Lentz wrote:
> Jack,
>
> You are absolutely right about this. In the first email you asked if that
> had been figured in to my thinking of open unfiltered access. It has.
> Spectrum is a valuable resource and there is only so much of it to go around
> in each of the allocated frequency sets that are available today. As you
> said in your email:
>
> "It's not a question of fitting the "business model"; it's a question of
> fitting today's current technology model. With limited license-free
> frequency availability, a WISP can only serve X amount of bandwidth to Y
> number of customers."
>
> Two points here:
> 1. Today's technology does limit the amount of bandwidth per AP and the
> amount of simultaneous subs per ap .. But that is today's technology.
> Although pushing the manufacturer can help this situation, it can't solve it
> by itself. With most Aps supporting only a 20Mb backplane, your point is
> very clear. With 3.65 availabity and 50 MHz of spectrum now available ..
> (ok, 25 for now, fair is fair) and TVWS on edge of realization, I think the
> spectrum will start to open up. Unless there are new modulation schemes
> adapted and applied to take advantage of the used and abused 2 and 5 GHz
> spaces, I think this is our best bet. Today's technology does have its
> limitations, but tomorrows will not.
>
> 2. License-free spectrum.
> This is not a licensed-free only issue. Now that WISPs have access to other
> bands available, and there have been partnership opportunities available for
> some in the MMDS/ITFS (BRS/EBS .. Whatever ;)) range, this takes the chains
> of working in unlicensed spectrum away from those who have been held by it
> for so long. Again, the equipment performance plays here too, but it is
> definetly a trend that hopefully will play out nicely.
>
> As spectrum becomes available and the devices are created and pushed to
> market to support the higher usage requirements of consumer products, it
> will start to become even more competitive in the very near future.
>
> -d
>
>
> On 11/24/08 12:10 PM, "Jack Unger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>   
>> Mike,
>>
>> There are real physical limits to the amount of throughput that a radio
>> channel (X MHz wide) can handle. Ranting at manufacturers isn't going to
>> change this very much. You can only flow so much water through a pipe.
>> Increase the pressure without increasing the pipe diameter and the pipe
>> bursts. This issue is physics-based so ranting may make you feel better
>> but when you're done, the same physical constraints remain.  This is why
>> having enough spectrum space (enough channels) is so important. Bottom
>> line is WISPs don't have enough spectrum space to deliver all that
>> throughput reliably to all those customers without creating interference
>> for every other network operator out there.
>>
>> jack
>>
>>
>> Mike Hammett wrote:
>> 
>>> This is why we need gear capable of higher throughputs.  Too many
>>> WISPs out there don't press their manufacturers.  They'd rather just put up
>>> a couple Canopy radios and complain on a list about how they can't deliver
>>> X, Y, or Z to a customer.
>>>
>>> I have complained to manufacturers.  WiMAX is NOT the answer we are looking
>>> for.  Most of the gear being released in the US is using small channel
>>> sizes, so small throughput.
>>>
>>> I will not purchase another AP unless it is able to deliver 40 mbit of
>>> throughput, end of story.  Fortunately for me, they're out there...
>>> Mikrotik can (though uses a lot of spectrum).  Deliberant is working on it.
>>> I believe the new Canopy is close.
>>>
>>> Orthogon can do 300 mbit in 30 MHz...  expensive, but it can be done.  Where
>>> are the engineers at the other companies?  Where are the PtMP products?  I
>>> haven't purchased any of their products, but from what I hear, Deliberant is
>>> going to do 70 mbit in 20 MHz by spring.  Not as good as Orthogon, but a lot
>>> better than anyone else out there.  20 MHz of WiMAX could produce acceptable
>>> speeds, but no one is doing it.
>>>
>>> Buying an $8k WiMAX AP that only does 15 megabit sounds like a
>>> great idea!I could MAYBE see $8k for a TV whitespaces AP that
>>> supported bonding of several channels (say 4 or 5)...  In 3650 or 5 gig, no
>>> thanks.
>>>
>>> Where has the innovation in the last 

Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information

[Drew Lentz]

Jack,

You are absolutely right about this. In the first email you asked if that
had been figured in to my thinking of open unfiltered access. It has.
Spectrum is a valuable resource and there is only so much of it to go around
in each of the allocated frequency sets that are available today. As you
said in your email:

"It's not a question of fitting the "business model"; it's a question of
fitting today's current technology model. With limited license-free
frequency availability, a WISP can only serve X amount of bandwidth to Y
number of customers."

Two points here:
1. Today's technology does limit the amount of bandwidth per AP and the
amount of simultaneous subs per ap .. But that is today's technology.
Although pushing the manufacturer can help this situation, it can't solve it
by itself. With most Aps supporting only a 20Mb backplane, your point is
very clear. With 3.65 availabity and 50 MHz of spectrum now available ..
(ok, 25 for now, fair is fair) and TVWS on edge of realization, I think the
spectrum will start to open up. Unless there are new modulation schemes
adapted and applied to take advantage of the used and abused 2 and 5 GHz
spaces, I think this is our best bet. Today's technology does have its
limitations, but tomorrows will not.

2. License-free spectrum.
This is not a licensed-free only issue. Now that WISPs have access to other
bands available, and there have been partnership opportunities available for
some in the MMDS/ITFS (BRS/EBS .. Whatever ;)) range, this takes the chains
of working in unlicensed spectrum away from those who have been held by it
for so long. Again, the equipment performance plays here too, but it is
definetly a trend that hopefully will play out nicely.

As spectrum becomes available and the devices are created and pushed to
market to support the higher usage requirements of consumer products, it
will start to become even more competitive in the very near future.

-d


On 11/24/08 12:10 PM, "Jack Unger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Mike,
> 
> There are real physical limits to the amount of throughput that a radio
> channel (X MHz wide) can handle. Ranting at manufacturers isn't going to
> change this very much. You can only flow so much water through a pipe.
> Increase the pressure without increasing the pipe diameter and the pipe
> bursts. This issue is physics-based so ranting may make you feel better
> but when you're done, the same physical constraints remain.  This is why
> having enough spectrum space (enough channels) is so important. Bottom
> line is WISPs don't have enough spectrum space to deliver all that
> throughput reliably to all those customers without creating interference
> for every other network operator out there.
> 
> jack
> 
> 
> Mike Hammett wrote:
>> This is why we need gear capable of higher throughputs.  Too many
>> WISPs out there don't press their manufacturers.  They'd rather just put up
>> a couple Canopy radios and complain on a list about how they can't deliver
>> X, Y, or Z to a customer.
>> 
>> I have complained to manufacturers.  WiMAX is NOT the answer we are looking
>> for.  Most of the gear being released in the US is using small channel
>> sizes, so small throughput.
>> 
>> I will not purchase another AP unless it is able to deliver 40 mbit of
>> throughput, end of story.  Fortunately for me, they're out there...
>> Mikrotik can (though uses a lot of spectrum).  Deliberant is working on it.
>> I believe the new Canopy is close.
>> 
>> Orthogon can do 300 mbit in 30 MHz...  expensive, but it can be done.  Where
>> are the engineers at the other companies?  Where are the PtMP products?  I
>> haven't purchased any of their products, but from what I hear, Deliberant is
>> going to do 70 mbit in 20 MHz by spring.  Not as good as Orthogon, but a lot
>> better than anyone else out there.  20 MHz of WiMAX could produce acceptable
>> speeds, but no one is doing it.
>> 
>> Buying an $8k WiMAX AP that only does 15 megabit sounds like a
>> great idea!I could MAYBE see $8k for a TV whitespaces AP that
>> supported bonding of several channels (say 4 or 5)...  In 3650 or 5 gig, no
>> thanks.
>> 
>> Where has the innovation in the last few years gone?
>> 
>> 
>> -
>> Mike Hammett
>> Intelligent Computing Solutions
>> http://www.ics-il.com
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> From: "Dennis Burgess" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2008 3:42 PM
>> To: "WISPA General List" 
>> Subject: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
>> 
>>   
>>> In case you did not know, recently NetFlix and Microsoft teamed up to
>>> provide video on-demand services to all of the XBox 360 users.  Not only
>>> can you start one of 12,000 videos in a matter of seconds on your
>>> computer, but you can also do this right on your Xbox 360, bringing it
>>> mainstream for many who have never used it.  Not to mention the super
>>> low cost of basically $9 bucks a month!
>>> 
>>> I have been using it for a few

Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information

[Josh Luthman]

I agree with Mike as far as the physics limitations.

Video cards for PCs are the same thing.  They pushed the technology of PCI,
AGP, PCI-Express before the video cards even came close to reaching the bus'
capacity.

Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly.
--- Henry Spencer


On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 1:50 PM, Sam Tetherow <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I couldn't imagine how the logistics of this would work.  What makes
> sense is if your customer uses more bandwidth, then they pay for it.
> Everything else is just an inefficient way to do the same.
>
> Lets say you are going to charge $150/Mb/month for 95% usage (just
> picked a number).  If the customer pays the bill for their usage 100%
> comes to you.  Now lets say that we have come up with some efficient
> scheme to accurately bill the various content providers for their
> 'usage'.  If we need $150/Mb/month and bill at that rate to say Netflix,
> do you think that Netflix is going to have $0 overhead on accounts
> payable for that bill?  Do you think they are going to take a loss on
> that expense?  So it is going to cost the end customer $150/Mb/month+$x.
>
> This cost will be averaged out to each customer based on total usage.
> As the service becomes more popular then the price is going to go up.
> Wait, doesn't this sound familiar?  The problem with selling a commodity
> is that supply and demand laws do apply.  The more the demand the less
> the supply.  We don't get economy of scale savings in last mile on
> wireless gear.  We have a very finite amount of bandwidth we can
> effectively deliver from an AP/tower.
>
> Marlon is the one ahead of the curve on this one (and all the others
> that have been billing based on usage already).  This is most likely
> where we are going to end up.  I don't necessarily think it will be down
> to $x/GB transfer it will at least be tiered service similar to cell
> phone plans today.
>
> Where WISPs run into the issue is in the short term.  We have to survive
> the market until the billing model changes.  Eventually Cable and Telco
> (and even Fiber at some point) is going to have to switch from unlimited
> to some form of metered (Comcast and Time Warner are already testing
> this model).  They just have the advantage of having better last mile
> bandwidth than we do and they generally get better upstream pricing.
>
>Sam Tetherow
>Sandhills Wireless
>
>
>
>
>
> Scottie Arnett wrote:
> > I read about a model somewhere that might work. The content providers
> paid the ISP a percentage for delivery of the content. Now I might could
> live with that if the economics worked out.
> >
> > Scottie
> >
> > -- Original Message --
> > From: "John Scrivner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Reply-To: WISPA General List 
> > Date:  Mon, 24 Nov 2008 10:11:04 -0600
> >
> >
> >> I think we will eventually see people just leave constant streams open
> day
> >> and night. How many of you leave your TV on much of the time whether you
> are
> >> watching it or not? This throws off the over-subscription model which
> >> relates to how many people are using the service at one time. When we
> start
> >> seeing all channels available at all times via Internet with some common
> >> interface (Netflix, Tivo, Windows Media Player, Real Player, Quicktime,
> >> etc.) then we will have this problem to contend with as well.
> >>
> >> I hope content providers start making all of their content interactive
> such
> >> that viewers have to click something (like ads) from time to time to
> >> maintain the free TV service. This would help them to sell their ads at
> a
> >> premium and would provide an automatic "off" button for the stream when
> >> people walk away from the "TV" and do not click something once in a
> while to
> >> prove they are watching the content and commercials.
> >> Scriv
> >>
> >>
> >> On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 8:46 AM, Chuck McCown - 3 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>> I think the canopy 450 will do something like 30 down and 10 up.  So
> that
> >>> could give you 20 simultaneously which statistically could work if you
> had
> >>> 50-100 on an AP.
> >>>   - Original Message -
> >>>  From: Travis Johnson
> >>>   To: WISPA General List
> >>>  Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 7:

Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information

[Mike Hammett]

The billing model is irrelevant if the gear can't do it in the first place. 
You could charge $10/megabyte transferred and it would be meaningless if you 
can't deliver what the customer wants.

Yes, the standard billing model needs to change, but using it as an 
artificial barrier isn't exactly the best thing to do, even if it is the 
only thing you can do at this time.

It would be silly for fiber based networks to charge for usage at this time. 
They have no practical capacity limits.  Go ahead, pull 100 mbit/s on your 
$75/month account...  it costs them almost nil on a recurring basis because 
of 10GE connections to the CDNs...  limelight, akami, Youtube, etc.

Networks would rather you pull 100 megs from a CDN because of the high 
capacity low price links to them, instead of going over peering sessions 
with other networks, which usually have more contractual restriction.

Let me restate the issue...  There is almost zero cost in connecting to the 
networks that house the big bandwidth intensive sites.


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com



--
From: "Sam Tetherow" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 12:50 PM
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "WISPA General List" 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information

> I couldn't imagine how the logistics of this would work.  What makes
> sense is if your customer uses more bandwidth, then they pay for it.
> Everything else is just an inefficient way to do the same.
>
> Lets say you are going to charge $150/Mb/month for 95% usage (just
> picked a number).  If the customer pays the bill for their usage 100%
> comes to you.  Now lets say that we have come up with some efficient
> scheme to accurately bill the various content providers for their
> 'usage'.  If we need $150/Mb/month and bill at that rate to say Netflix,
> do you think that Netflix is going to have $0 overhead on accounts
> payable for that bill?  Do you think they are going to take a loss on
> that expense?  So it is going to cost the end customer $150/Mb/month+$x.
>
> This cost will be averaged out to each customer based on total usage.
> As the service becomes more popular then the price is going to go up.
> Wait, doesn't this sound familiar?  The problem with selling a commodity
> is that supply and demand laws do apply.  The more the demand the less
> the supply.  We don't get economy of scale savings in last mile on
> wireless gear.  We have a very finite amount of bandwidth we can
> effectively deliver from an AP/tower.
>
> Marlon is the one ahead of the curve on this one (and all the others
> that have been billing based on usage already).  This is most likely
> where we are going to end up.  I don't necessarily think it will be down
> to $x/GB transfer it will at least be tiered service similar to cell
> phone plans today.
>
> Where WISPs run into the issue is in the short term.  We have to survive
> the market until the billing model changes.  Eventually Cable and Telco
> (and even Fiber at some point) is going to have to switch from unlimited
> to some form of metered (Comcast and Time Warner are already testing
> this model).  They just have the advantage of having better last mile
> bandwidth than we do and they generally get better upstream pricing.
>
>Sam Tetherow
>Sandhills Wireless
>
>
>
>
>
> Scottie Arnett wrote:
>> I read about a model somewhere that might work. The content providers 
>> paid the ISP a percentage for delivery of the content. Now I might could 
>> live with that if the economics worked out.
>>
>> Scottie
>>
>> -- Original Message --
>> From: "John Scrivner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Reply-To: WISPA General List 
>> Date:  Mon, 24 Nov 2008 10:11:04 -0600
>>
>>
>>> I think we will eventually see people just leave constant streams open 
>>> day
>>> and night. How many of you leave your TV on much of the time whether you 
>>> are
>>> watching it or not? This throws off the over-subscription model which
>>> relates to how many people are using the service at one time. When we 
>>> start
>>> seeing all channels available at all times via Internet with some common
>>> interface (Netflix, Tivo, Windows Media Player, Real Player, Quicktime,
>>> etc.) then we will have this problem to contend with as well.
>>>
>>> I hope content providers start making all of their content interactive 
>>> such
>>> that viewers have to click something (like ads) from time to time to
>>> maintain the free TV service.