[WSG] quotes on q tag
How are people handling putting quotes on q tags?
I used a quote yesterday and while moz (I think) and Safari both had
quotes built in, IE did not.
Is there a definitive approach?
I though I might do it manually (and thus reliably), but setting
q {
quotes: none;
}
didnt seem to affect the compliant browsers.
Lea
~ and if anyone can tell me what to call the little blocks of text that
are pulled out and the surrounding paragraph wraps around it, I will be
forever in your debt! Makes googling difficult when you can't remember
what the silly things are called
--
Lea de Groot
Elysian Systems - I Understand the Internet http://elysiansystems.com/
Web Design, Usability, Information Architecture, Search Engine
Optimisation
Brisbane, Australia
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Re: [WSG] quotes on q tag
On 5/30/04 11:34 PM Lea de Groot [EMAIL PROTECTED] sent this out: ~ and if anyone can tell me what to call the little blocks of text that are pulled out pull-quote HTH Rick Faaberg * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] quotes on q tag
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
How are people handling putting quotes on q tags?
I used a quote yesterday and while moz (I think) and Safari both had
quotes built in, IE did not. Is there a definitive approach?
I though I might do it manually (and thus reliably), but setting
q {
quotes: none;
}
didnt seem to affect the compliant browsers.
This works in Firefox 0.8, no idea about other browsers:
q:before, q:after {
content: ;
}
Lea
~ and if anyone can tell me what to call the little blocks of
text that
are pulled out and the surrounding paragraph wraps around it,
I will be
forever in your debt! Makes googling difficult when you can't remember
what the silly things are called
Pull quotes?
http://desktoppub.about.com/library/glossary/bldef-pullquote.htm
--
Lindsay Evans.
Developer,
Red Square Productions.
[p] 8596.4000
[f] 8596.4001
[w] www.redsquare.com.au
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Re: [WSG] quotes on q tag
pull-quote Thanks guys! warmly, Lea -- Lea de Groot Elysian Systems - I Understand the Internet http://elysiansystems.com/ Web Design, Usability, Information Architecture, Search Engine Optimisation Brisbane, Australia * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Correct way to swap style sheets based on Browser?
On 31 maj 2004, at 06.17, Justin French wrote: Then we @import an advanced style sheet over the top for modern browsers. IE4 and NN4 won't see this style sheet, because they don't support the @import function. style type='text/css' @import url(css/modern.css); /style IE4 actually does support @import, and will load the css file in the above example. However, if you specify the URL in a slightly different way it won't: @import css/modern.css; /Roger -- http://www.456bereastreet.com/ * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Selector naming conventions
Trevor For starters see this post and resulting discussion from Andy Clarke http://www.stuffandnonsense.co.uk/archives/whats_in_a_name.html dez Trevor Finch wrote: Is there a naming convention for CSS Selectors ? (as in other languages) I mean something like... #position-menu, #position-moreinfo, #position-content etc for selectors that are mainly for 'positioning' .style-menu, .style-content etc for selectors that are mainly for 'styling' Could then have something like... div ID=position-menu class=style-menu /div !--- end of menu --- Is there a generic 'name' for Selectors that are used for showing menus/navigation ? regards... Trevor Finch Research Services New England 8/16 Nicholson Street Balmain, NSW 2041 Australia T: +61 (2) 9810 3563 F: +61 (2) 9810 3323 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.rsne.com.au -- * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Selector naming conventions
On Mon, 31 May 2004 13:01:49 +1000, Trevor Finch wrote: Is there a naming convention for CSS Selectors ? (as in other languages) Well, I was going to answer no, and expand that with there isn't g But I immediately found this article: http://www.stuffandnonsense.co.uk/archives/whats_in_a_name.html - hot off the presses, even :) warmly, Lea -- Lea de Groot Elysian Systems - I Understand the Internet http://elysiansystems.com/ Web Design, Usability, Information Architecture, Search Engine Optimisation Brisbane, Australia * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] quotes on q tag
On 31 maj 2004, at 08.34, Lea de Groot wrote:
How are people handling putting quotes on q tags?
I used a quote yesterday and while moz (I think) and Safari both had
quotes built in, IE did not.
Is there a definitive approach?
I though I might do it manually (and thus reliably), but setting
q {
quotes: none;
}
didnt seem to affect the compliant browsers.
IE/Win doesn't support the q element properly, so you can either let
users of that browser miss out on the quotes, or add quotes manually
and use CSS to turn off the automatically added quotes in modern
browsers:
q {
quotes:none;
}
q:before {
content: ;
}
q:after {
content: ;
}
The above does not work in IE5/Mac, so people using that will get
double quotes.
This way you can use the typographically correct quote marks for the
language used, and not the standard that all browsers seem to add by
default.
/Roger
--
http://www.456bereastreet.com/
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Re: [WSG] Naughty Form!
On Sun, 2004-05-30 at 23:10, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The problem is that in IE 6, some form elements appear to be inheriting the content div's left margin value. The problem ceases if I don't organise the form in fieldsets - but I want fieldsets! I fought something similar for an hour yesterday. Surrounding the form elements with paragraph tags solved it for me. For example- fieldset p legendInput Text/legend input type=text name=text / /p /fieldset Later, George * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] when to place as a background in CSS
but other images which are basically decoration, I have placed within the CSS div tags as background images. Is this o.k to do as long as the images don't have any specific meaning to the content? I say yes! I do the same thing to prevent older browsers from showing images that are purely presentational. I think it's better to have a little meaningless semantic noise in your code than to expose useless visual noise to browsers that support images but don't support CSS. Cheers, Andrew Taumoefolau * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
[WSG] IE Max-width Emulation and Auto Centre
Hi guys, New layout for http://www.english-sofas.co.uk/els_new/index.htm. however, I am facing a challenge: max-width. I've built the site to sit in 640 and 800 elastic windows and have constrained the width -- fine in Gecko but Bodge City in IE. I've used conditional expressions in CSS to emulate max-width but, of course, as I am encapsulating a div, IE will not resize fluidly once past Zero Barrier (set at 730px), doggedly maintaining max-with. Now, I can use the onload reSize + refresh call but that flunks in XHTML 1.1 (and is just plain nasty). So, what am I to do? 'Go to hell in a handcart' is not an acceptable answer; neither is 'Make the entire site bloody Flash and to hell with it.' ;o) One other issue: I'd like to maintain these product icons and associated text http://www.english-sofas.co.uk/els_new/contemporary_leather_sofas_1.htm as auto-centre but I'm holding each model as a constrained image and text within a single href. There are ways to achieve this by folding each href in a div but I'm looking for an elegant solution. Would appreciate some guru feedback. Cheers all, Mike Pepper Accessible Web Developer http://www.seowebsitepromotion.com * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
[WSG] third style sheet needed?
I have a style sheet I am using for the web media=screen and I also have one for print purposes media=print. I also want to hide the CSS from older browsers such as NS 4.0 etc. using the @import feature if possible. When I do the @import feature the page defaults to my print style sheet for some reason. I have tried doing both @import url for the stylesheets and also leaving one as a link and the other @import. Am I doing something wrong or is there another way to get the older browsers to ignore the CSS? TIA Bruce Gilbert Webmaster Durham Public Schools Durham, North Carolina (919) 560-9118 -Office Phone http://www.dpsnc.net * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] IE Max-width Emulation and Auto Centre
On 31 maj 2004, at 20.39, Mike Pepper wrote: One other issue: I'd like to maintain these product icons and associated text http://www.english-sofas.co.uk/els_new/ contemporary_leather_sofas_1.htm as auto-centre but I'm holding each model as a constrained image and text within a single href. There are ways to achieve this by folding each href in a div but I'm looking for an elegant solution. Not sure what you mean by auto-centre. The product images and their associated text look horizontally centered to me. There is a slight problem in Safari though. Because the images are wrapped in the links, and are treated as inline content, they get an underline on hover, just like the text below them. You can fix it by adding display:block to the .model img rule. /Roger -- http://www.456bereastreet.com/ * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Selector naming conventions
That's the one good thing about beginning anything from scratch: no conventions. You're left to your own devices until something that makes sense begins to take root. Well... This is all fine and good until someone on the other side of the planet reads your code and finds a plethora of undefinable jargon strewn throughout the site. Fortunately, for some, we soon realize that 'our' methods may not bear any meaning to the next person, and begin to adopt some of the naming conventions used by other authors (by now we would have been quite well versed at view sourceing other folks pages, so we're bound to have lifted an idea or two). Which brings us to the Malarkey article, What's In a Name? by Andy Clarke (see link below). Here we see the obvious advantages to using an object view when naming principle components in our page. Conspicuous in its absence, is any discussion on page specific content. Do we stick this matter with generic names? I've been around the block just once, so far, and have seen my thinking come full circle on this question. At first I thought file size and bandwidth were most important on the list of considerations. But we can put our pages on a diet that may cost them their long term health if we cut too deep. A couple hundred bytes either way isn't going to make that great a difference. Along comes the discussion of nested divs, and div bloat. Oh... like mumps and measles, I've had those illnesses, too. Thanks to open discussions, like this list, I learned the errors of my ways and found that h id=semantic /h and p class=nav /p works just fine for anchoring, and naming my page sections. As long as I'm not floating anything, or creating a separately styled page element, a div is seldom required. Getting rather wordy, now... mustmoveon... Names need meaning. The way I see it, there is no place for convention when it comes to semantically naming our elements. They should be named on the basis of the content they enclose. Whether they are individually styled or not, would be of no concern. Their parent container is styled, that's all that matters. Child objects can be styled by their node within the container. This approach certainly makes it easy to semantically express and style child span's and other inline elements within our content. There will be some 'code bloat', albeit; however, the next site re-design will be much easier for it. Roy afdesign wrote: Trevor For starters see this post and resulting discussion from Andy Clarke http://www.stuffandnonsense.co.uk/archives/whats_in_a_name.html dez Trevor Finch wrote: Is there a naming convention for CSS Selectors ? (as in other languages) I mean something like... #position-menu, #position-moreinfo, #position-content etc for selectors that are mainly for 'positioning' .style-menu, .style-content etc for selectors that are mainly for 'styling' Could then have something like... div ID=position-menu class=style-menu /div !--- end of menu --- Is there a generic 'name' for Selectors that are used for showing menus/navigation ? regards... Trevor Finch Research Services New England 8/16 Nicholson Street Balmain, NSW 2041 Australia T: +61 (2) 9810 3563 F: +61 (2) 9810 3323 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.rsne.com.au -- * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] third style sheet needed?
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have a style sheet I am using for the web media=screen and I also have one for print purposes media=print. I also want to hide the CSS from older browsers such as NS 4.0 etc. using the @import feature if possible. snip/ It would help if you supplied either a URL or a code snipped. I have a guess at what the problem is, but I'd rather withhold my guesses since code would make guessing unnecessary. http://www.dpsnc.net This URL doesn't match your description, so I assume you're referring to a different one. It, by the way, is a mess. It has two heads with a form tag in between. Needless to say it doesn't validate. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
[WSG] OT: need help from a mac user please
This is off topic so please respond off-list, but I need some help from Mac users I have a client who sees an error that I cant produce. When I go to http://nqpropertyreview.com and click enter, I am presented with a login screen, which is whats required. So are all of the 50 people so far that Ive asked to check it. But the client doesnt. The client sees an error message saying something like [quote] Cannot decode string , The input string is not base-64 encoded [/quote] The only difference I can find between what I have and the client, is that the client is using Mac with IE5.2. Id really like some Mac users to take a look at the site and see if they get the same error, to see if we can locate whats causing the problem. The page validates so its nothing to do with the HTML.. The error is to do with the server side scripting in ColdFusion but the error message doesnt appear in the ColdFusion documentation either. If you do get the error, please cut and paste the whole error message and send it to me We now return you to our regular WSG programming. Thank you for your patience. Cheers Mike Kear AFP Webworks Windsor, NSW, Australia http://afpwebworks.com
[WSG] Budget Design
Forgive me if this is a little off scope for this list, but having read the recent publication from Didier Hilhorst and Daniel Rubin of Sinelogic, Budget Design: Increase Profit by Improving Process (http://sinelogic.com/), I was wondering what other freelancers and small web development teams classified as a small budget website. To me it seems that the discussion of what we web developers charge our clients is a little taboo, but hey, I really want to know if our business is underpricing/overpricing our product. I know there are plenty of second year multimedia students charging a pittance for a table layout website that only looks good in I.E. - many of our clients come to us having been burnt by such an experience (no offence intended to any second year mm students). But how are other web dev businesses costing their XHTML/CSS sites. At this present time, for our team a small budget website consists of a 5 to 10 page (for want of a better word) XHTML/CSS site with CMS and can cost the client anywhere from AU$3.5K to AU$5.5K depending on customisation. Luke Moulton * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Budget Design
On 01/06/2004, at 8:55 AM, Luke Moulton wrote: At this present time, for our team a small budget website consists of a 5 to 10 page (for want of a better word) XHTML/CSS site with CMS and can cost the client anywhere from AU$3.5K to AU$5.5K depending on customisation. I'm also in AU, and this appears to be a fair *market* price for such work, although in my case it's more like 10-15 pages. Of course, I can't tell you whether this is a fair price for the work you perform, or if you're covering your costs and making a profit, but $3-5k seems to be what the market will handle here right now for something with basic CMS and a general quality (XHTML, CSS, WAG, etc). --- Justin French http://indent.com.au * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Budget Design
That's about right for me too. Peter On 01/06/2004, at 9:13 AM, Justin French wrote: On 01/06/2004, at 8:55 AM, Luke Moulton wrote: At this present time, for our team a small budget website consists of a 5 to 10 page (for want of a better word) XHTML/CSS site with CMS and can cost the client anywhere from AU$3.5K to AU$5.5K depending on customisation. I'm also in AU, and this appears to be a fair *market* price for such work, although in my case it's more like 10-15 pages. Of course, I can't tell you whether this is a fair price for the work you perform, or if you're covering your costs and making a profit, but $3-5k seems to be what the market will handle here right now for something with basic CMS and a general quality (XHTML, CSS, WAG, etc). Justin French http://indent.com.au x-tad-bigger /x-tad-biggerUniversal Head Design That Works. 7/43 Bridge Rd Stanmore NSW 2048 Australia T (+612) 9517 1466 F (+612) 9565 4747 E [EMAIL PROTECTED] W www.universalhead.com
Re[2]: [WSG] Budget Design
At this present time, for our team a small budget website consists of a 5 to 10 page (for want of a better word) XHTML/CSS site with CMS and can cost the client anywhere from AU$3.5K to AU$5.5K depending on customisation. Justin I'm also in AU, and this appears to be a fair *market* price for such Justin work, although in my case it's more like 10-15 pages. Of course, I Justin can't tell you whether this is a fair price for the work you perform, Justin or if you're covering your costs and making a profit, but $3-5k seems Justin to be what the market will handle here right now for something with Justin basic CMS and a general quality (XHTML, CSS, WAG, etc). and this is why discussions about prices are usually taboo. Not so much the giving away of trade secrets, but that they're of *very* limited value to most everyone on a mailing list such as this. I don't live in Australia. We don't charge in Australian dollars. The prices you give above are meaningless to me, as would the prices I might give you. And even to those living in the same country/region/city - who can say what's a fair price? What are your expenses? How desparate are you for work? Is there likely to be ongoing work from the client? All sorts of factors come into play when pricing a job. I know what you're asking, and it would be nice to have some figures to work with, but really, pricing is part of running a business, and beyond general principles, no one can help you in your particular situation. I can't even say something like, don't undercharge you work - value it and charge appropriately, because there will be times where you undercharge because you desparately need the work. :) Regards Mike Brown SIGNIFY :: the logic behind ph: +64 4 803-3211 | fax: +64 4 803-3241 mob: +64 0274 885-992 | http://www.signify.co.nz P.O. Box 24-068, Manners St, Wellington Level 8, CMC Building, 89 Courtenay Pl, Wellington * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: Re[2]: [WSG] Budget Design
and this is why discussions about prices are usually taboo. Not so much the giving away of trade secrets, but that they're of *very* limited value to most everyone on a mailing list such as this. Thanks Mike. Agreed. Very difficult to compare Apples with apples between different design studios but more so across countries. I guess it was more a regional question and perhaps not suitable for this forum. Perhaps I need to network more with my piers! Luke Moulton * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: Re[2]: [WSG] Budget Design
This is true Mic When I started my business, I would quote for as little as AU$ 500 for a 5 page website and still the customers would crib and they would want it to be done for $300. Warm Regards, Sameer S. Kekade. QUATRO FOUR RETAIL The right connections for your business Tel. direct +61 2 9370 2775 Fax direct +61 2 9370 1200 Mobile 0411 566 650 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.quatro.com.au -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Michael Kear Sent: Tuesday, 1 June 2004 10:41 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Re[2]: [WSG] Budget Design Well appropriate or not for this list, it's been of immense interest for me. When you're a one-man business, the only way you ever find out your price is wrong is if you price too high and start losing business. I've got every bid I've gone for lately and have been puzzling over whether that's because I provide a fantastic service and I'm a terrific salesman, or whether I'm charging too little. Without wanting to continue the discussion on the list, and without wanting to give anything away, this discussion has helped me get closer to making my mind up about this issue. Thanks. This WSG list would be the most helpful list for my business I've ever been on. Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia AFP Webworks http://afpwebworks.com -Original Message- and this is why discussions about prices are usually taboo. Not so much the giving away of trade secrets, but that they're of *very* limited value to most everyone on a mailing list such as this. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: Re[2]: [WSG] Budget Design
That's known as price-fixing here in the US and that is illegal. That's not true. Discussing going rates in various countries is not price-fixing. A group of people agreeing to only charge a certain rate is price-fixing. This is having less and less to do with web standards. -- Kay Smoljak Senior Developer/QC Leader/Search Optimisation PerthWeb Pty Ltd - http://www.perthweb.com.au/ Ph: 08 9226 1366 - Fax: 08 9226 1375 * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] OT: need help from a mac user please
Mike No email address in your post and neither of my browsers (IE 5.23 on Mac or Firefox 0.8 on Win2k) render the AFP Webworks page fully (might be our firewall and the java applet). So having to reply here. With OsX 10.2.8 and IE 5.23 I do not have any problem accessing http://nqpropertyreview.com and clicking enter and being presented with the login screen. ie no error messages. Nick * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
[WSG] accessibility feedback
Hi guys, I was wondering whether you could give me some feedback on a website we have created: http://www.jet.org.au. We have tried to make it as accessible as possible, but better than any Bobby or W3C validation is probably going through your critique. We are still working on improving it, but please feel free to be tough critics! Cheers, Andreas. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: Re[2]: [WSG] Budget Design
On 5/31/04 6:19 PM Kay Smoljak [EMAIL PROTECTED] sent this out: That's known as price-fixing here in the US and that is illegal. That's not true. Discussing going rates in various countries is not price-fixing. A group of people agreeing to only charge a certain rate is price-fixing. This is having less and less to do with web standards. So what would be the effect of discussing the prices, if not for everyone to charge about the same? Between countries I guess is slightly different, but if it's discussion between US developers re: developers in the US, and on a public list (especially if it's a developers' list), then that is price fixing. I can get you a legal opinion if you wish. Rick Faaberg * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] Budget Design CLOSED NOW THANKS
I've let this ramble on a bit as a) it seemed interesting to a number of you and b) it is a slow day on the list however now it is going right off target and I think we should finish the discussion. Thanks, ListDad This is having less and less to do with web standards. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
[WSG] Should web standards cost more?
Hi The slightly OT thread [WSG] Budget Design, made me think of an idea which is very relevent to all members of WSG .. My premise is that any sensible business person should try to differentiate from competitors by showing they have skills that no one else has, vast experience etc and justify charging more than the competition because of that So has any member of the WSG done that, justifying charging $X more than eg: the design agency down the road which makes webpages by putting sliced photoshop images into tables by saying something along the lines of I design to Web Standards and can show my product validates against these standards, this is like an industrial business getting ISO Quality certification for their processes and means my product/service satisfies web industry standards for quality of code, can other companies with proposals for your project do the same ? -- Neerav Bhatt http://www.bhatt.id.au Web Development IT consultancy * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] accessibility feedback
On 01/06/2004, at 11:26 AM, Andreas Boehmer wrote: I was wondering whether you could give me some feedback on a website we have created: http://www.jet.org.au. We have tried to make it as accessible as possible, but better than any Bobby or W3C validation is probably going through your critique. We are still working on improving it, but please feel free to be tough critics! From a quick glance, without looking at any code or styles... - the small type in the logo is virtually impossible to read (1280x1024 17 flat panel)... either you want people to read the text (so make it bigger), or you don't (so get rid of it). I know it's not a TRUE accessibility issue, but since there are validators for those (which you should use), I don't need to go into all that here :) - Link colours in the breadcrumbs, and on the homepage (for starters, eg Login Now!) don't have a visited link state -- I bet there are a lot more examples all over the site. - some of the font sizes (especially in the left navigation bar) are pretty small (around 9px I guess?) in Safari -- whilst I haven't bothered to see how you've styled them, it's certainly something to watch out for across all browsers with a default font set small-ish. These comments shouldn't detract from what is looking like quite a nice site. In other words, you're getting there for sure! --- Justin French http://indent.com.au * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] accessibility feedback
quite good in terms of speedy loading http://www.websiteoptimization.com/cgi-bin/wso/wso.pl?url=http%3A//www.jet.org.au/phpFiles/index.php However the CSS http://www.jet.org.au/css/JET.css could be optimised a lot eg: background-color:#fff; background-image:url(../images/orange_left.gif); background-attachment:fixed; background-position:left; background-repeat:repeat-y; can become background:#fff url(../images/orange_left.gif) repeat-y fixed left; -- Neerav Bhatt http://www.bhatt.id.au Web Development IT consultancy Andreas Boehmer wrote: Hi guys, I was wondering whether you could give me some feedback on a website we have created: http://www.jet.org.au. We have tried to make it as accessible as possible, but better than any Bobby or W3C validation is probably going through your critique. We are still working on improving it, but please feel free to be tough critics! Cheers, Andreas. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Should web standards cost more?
Hello, Well I have. I'm still a high school student and therefore have no real qualifications other than experience. However people have seen my work and still come to me for design jobs. I charge less (again due to qualifications) but one of the main reasons people still contact me for design contracts even though they know my age and such is that I design by web standards. Nan Zhong Neerav wrote: Hi The slightly OT thread [WSG] Budget Design, made me think of an idea which is very relevent to all members of WSG .. My premise is that any sensible business person should try to differentiate from competitors by showing they have skills that no one else has, vast experience etc and justify charging more than the competition because of that So has any member of the WSG done that, justifying charging $X more than eg: the design agency down the road which makes webpages by putting sliced photoshop images into tables by saying something along the lines of I design to Web Standards and can show my product validates against these standards, this is like an industrial business getting ISO Quality certification for their processes and means my product/service satisfies web industry standards for quality of code, can other companies with proposals for your project do the same ? * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
[WSG] Bye folks
It seems every thread I contribute to gets closed!! ;) Seriously, I suppose I find myself more interested in design threads rather than coding ones, and that's not quite in accord with the purposes of this list, so I think I'll unsubscribe for a while. I'd like to take up this bit of bandwidth though to extend my warmest thanks to Russ and Peter and all the other extremely kind people who have taken the time to educate and inform me during my struggles to learn web standards coding. Before I joined this list almost 6 months ago I was using GoLive for sites and I'm now hand-coding and improving with every site I make. It's all due to the helpful people here. Thanks folks, may your code be bug-free! Peter www.universalhead.com www.cinema4duser.com www.petergifford.com www.headlesshollow.com x-tad-bigger /x-tad-biggerUniversal Head Design That Works. 7/43 Bridge Rd Stanmore NSW 2048 Australia T (+612) 9517 1466 F (+612) 9565 4747 E [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [WSG] Should web standards cost more?
Our web agency has been promoting the versatility of sites built to web standards instead of the our sites validate or the you could be threatened with legal action one day argument. Telling clients that their site will reach a larger audience, be forward compatible, or can be viewed better on handheld devices than table based layouts seems to be more convincing. We find that we don't have to charge much more for XHTML/CSS than we used to for table based designs because in most cases the development process is faster. Although it has been a steep learning curve (and still is) :) Luke Moulton My premise is that any sensible business person should try to differentiate from competitors by showing they have skills that no one else has, vast experience etc and justify charging more than the competition because of that So has any member of the WSG done that, justifying charging $X more than eg: the design agency down the road which makes webpages by putting sliced photoshop images into tables by saying something along the lines of I design to Web Standards and can show my product validates against these standards, this is like an industrial business getting ISO Quality certification for their processes and means my product/service satisfies web industry standards for quality of code, can other companies with proposals for your project do the same ? -- Neerav Bhatt * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Should web standards cost more?
www.MACCAWS.org Thats a good reason to produce standards compliant websites. I recently had one job which the coding was easy, the actual complexity of the detail which was so high it was just a to big a job for me to do :( But the person who offered me the job, saw my site and emailed me. What was the significant factor, have you seen my site? www.t94xr.net.nz Camz - Original Message - From: Nan Zhong [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, June 01, 2004 2:00 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] Should web standards cost more? Hello, Well I have. I'm still a high school student and therefore have no real qualifications other than experience. However people have seen my work and still come to me for design jobs. I charge less (again due to qualifications) but one of the main reasons people still contact me for design contracts even though they know my age and such is that I design by web standards. Nan Zhong Neerav wrote: Hi The slightly OT thread [WSG] Budget Design, made me think of an idea which is very relevent to all members of WSG .. My premise is that any sensible business person should try to differentiate from competitors by showing they have skills that no one else has, vast experience etc and justify charging more than the competition because of that So has any member of the WSG done that, justifying charging $X more than eg: the design agency down the road which makes webpages by putting sliced photoshop images into tables by saying something along the lines of I design to Web Standards and can show my product validates against these standards, this is like an industrial business getting ISO Quality certification for their processes and means my product/service satisfies web industry standards for quality of code, can other companies with proposals for your project do the same ? * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Should web standards cost more?
www.MACCAWS.org Thats a good reason to produce standards compliant websites. I recently had one job which the coding was easy, the actual complexity of the detail which was so high it was just a to big a job for me to do :( But the person who offered me the job, saw my site and emailed me. What was the significant factor, have you seen my site? www.t94xr.net.nz Camz * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Should web standards cost more?
On 01/06/2004, at 11:46 AM, Neerav wrote: So has any member of the WSG done that, justifying charging $X more than eg: the design agency down the road which makes webpages by putting sliced photoshop images into tables by saying something along the lines of I design to Web Standards and can show my product validates against these standards, this is like an industrial business getting ISO Quality certification for their processes and means my product/service satisfies web industry standards for quality of code, can other companies with proposals for your project do the same ? Yes. Every business needs to create a point of difference between itself and it's competitors to stand out. This would be one way to do it. Specials prices, stunning sample designs, pre-built code and templates to save the client money, quick turn-around times, money back guarantees, proven track records and proven experience would all also be valid ways of differentiating yourself from your competitors. But be careful, if every web firm suddenly promotes itself as being standards compliant, then there is no longer a differentiation. How many web form websites have you seen with this line? We create visually stunning, easy to use websites with intuitive user interfaces which load quickly Yep. Uh-huh. We all all say that. It might buy you a few months of differentiation, but I'm still not sure that the average client cares about standards -- they care about price design far above usability, accessibility and standards in my experience, and so they should. But what will the home page look like? :) --- Justin French http://indent.com.au * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
[WSG] position:absolute problem
hiya, this is hopefully a simple little problem - but my brain is refusing to work today :) on this test page... http://c41.com.au/test/position_test.html(yep, validated) ...is the example of the problem (i've stripped out all the extra html/css to make it easier for you to peruse) I want the blue box to appear at the bottom left of the red box (so itsinside the red box) - and i want the text to overlap it. In IE6 PC, the blue box appears at the bottom of the content - so, outside the blue box altogether, not good. In Mozilla the blue box appears in the right spot but it overlaps the text. I need it the other way around so the text overlaps the blue box. Now, I'm aware of a little "hack" if you add "width:100%" to the ".main" div the blue box pops up into the desired position in IE, but a) I'd rather not apply a width and b) that hack still leaves the blue box overlapping the text (and i've tried fiddling with z-index, see the example) ideas? pete
Re: [WSG] Should web standards cost more?
Hey Guys This is a service industry, provide cost based on how much the will cost you to do (i.e. long the work takes you to do). Implementing standards may save you time or add extra development time. For example I feel that CSS based design takes less time and as such should cost less that a design that has font tags hidden graphics everywhere. Sure the client gets a better end result, but this is a competitive advantage to you not something that you want to be charging more for. A site can be made significantly accessibile by just developing it properly in the first instance. No extra hours should be required to get pretty close to A level compliance. If AAA level compliance is a stated requirement for a project then extra time will be needed to put in the extra coding and testing effort - this should be costed on just like any other work. Learning curve is your problem, hours spent on development is your clients problem. Cheers Mark * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] position:absolute problem
Peter,
After a quick look at the css of your problem, I came up with the
following that works how you want it to in both IE and Mozilla.
I applied a float to the .main container, and also width:auto. You
don't actually need the width:auto there, but it is good practice to
have a width for every float.
I also applied relative positioning to the .main p declaration, as
then it will obey the z-index:
style type=text/css
.main{
z-index: 0;
position: relative;
background-color: #c00;
float: left;
width: auto;
}
.main p{
position: relative;
z-index: 3;
}
.bluebox{
z-index: 2;
position: absolute;
bottom: 0;
left: 0;
background-color: #369;
width: 100px;
height: 100px;
}
/style
Original Message
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
hiya, this is hopefully a simple little problem - but my brain is
refusing
to work today :)
on this test page...
http://c41.com.au/test/position_test.html
http://c41.com.au/test/position_test.html (yep, validated)
...is the example of the problem (i've stripped out all the extra
html/css
to make it easier for you to peruse)
I want the blue box to appear at the bottom left of the red box (so
its
inside the red box) - and i want the text to overlap it.
Regards,
David McDonald
Web Designer
http://www.davidmcdonald.org
*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
*
[WSG] Ten questions for Simon Willison
Simon Willison is a seasoned Web developer from the UK, currently working in Lawrence, Kansas. By day, he develops web applications, specialising in both client- and server-side development, for the Lawrence Journal-World . By night, he writes about web standards and technologies on his web development weblog - as well as writing regular articles for Sitepoint . He recently became a member of the Web Standards Project . Read Ten Questions for Simon Willison here: http://webstandardsgroup.org/features/simon-willison.cfm Thanks Russ The Australian Museum. Australia's first - and leading - natural sciences and anthropology museum. Visit www.amonline.net.au The views in this email are those of the user and do not necessarily reflect the views of the Australian Museum. The information contained in this email message and any accompanying files is or may be confidential and is for the intended recipient only. If you are not the intended recipient, any use, dissemination, reliance, forwarding, printing or copying of this email or any attached files is unauthorised. If you are not the intended recipient, please delete it and notify the sender.The Australian Museum does not guarantee the accuracy of any information contained in this e-mail or attached files. As Internet communications are not secure, the Australian Museum does not accept legal responsibility for the contents of this message or attached files.
[WSG] Standards compliant content management system.
A problem that has popped up for me a number of times now is what to do when a client wants to be able to manage the content on the web site themselves. For years I resisted using a system that required javascript or any particular software, and it has worked well, where the content to be updated is something simple like a news article, or a listing of products as the content follows a set of rules. Unfortunately, this falls a part when the content they need to edit is complex and follows no particular rules. Recently, I was reluctantly forced to incorporate the use of the Microsoft Rich Text Control which comes with IE on windows into a web site. There are a number of problems I have with this system: 1. It only works on IE/Win 2. Its quite slow 3. The HTML it produces is similar to a primitive version of front page and is no where near standards compliant. 4. I have noticed some strange bugs between point releases of IE6 (One surrounds each line of content by a blockqoute every time you save thte page. What is the point of going to all the effort of making the web site standards compliant when the end user is just going to butcher the content inside it. Teaching the end user more than basic html (b, ul,h1 etc) can be difficult. Asking someone who is untrained to use Dreamweaver can lead to more standards compliance problems. Has anyone come up with some solutions for helping the client maintain their own content while still retaining standards compliance? Regards, Ned Lukies * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Standards compliant content management system.
Ned, Have you tried Macromedia's Contribute? Good for static pages, with a web browser metaphor. -Hugh Todd Has anyone come up with some solutions for helping the client maintain their own content while still retaining standards compliance? * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] Standards compliant content management system. (MOVED TO THE APPROPRIATE LIST)
We have a CMS list for this subject. Please (subscribe if you're not already on it and) move it over there for any further discussion. For details, see: http://webstandardsgroup.org/go/resource131.cfm Regards, Peter * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] Standards compliant content management system.
I'm in the same situation only one step further forward. I'm considering either using the XHTML compliant Editor that is available although it looks a little unpredictable or changing my Content management system to allow the user to build up pages from components. Ie: they will select a component from a list to add to the page Paragraph, Ordered List, Quote etc. then Ill develop a css for each of these components. It limits the users ability to edit pages in the fullest terms but that could be a benefit rather than a weakness. What are others doing? GC Original Message: - From: Ned Lukies [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 14:22:40 +1000 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [WSG] Standards compliant content management system. snip What is the point of going to all the effort of making the web site standards compliant when the end user is just going to butcher the content inside it. /snip mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Standards compliant content management system.
Ned, I'm about to sign a contract on Wednesday and the client wants a CMS. I've been looking into Contribute by Macromedia, and it maintains that designers can Lock down site design, code, and permissions to protect your website. Although my review has just begun, my initial findings is compatible with Dreamweaver, and supports XHTML and CSS designs. http://www.macromedia.com/software/contribute/ Respectfully yours, Mario S. Cisneros A problem that has popped up for me a number of times now is what to do when a client wants to be able to manage the content on the web site themselves. For years I resisted using a system that required javascript or any particular software, and it has worked well, where the content to be updated is something simple like a news article, or a listing of products as the content follows a set of rules. Unfortunately, this falls a part when the content they need to edit is complex and follows no particular rules. Recently, I was reluctantly forced to incorporate the use of the Microsoft Rich Text Control which comes with IE on windows into a web site. There are a number of problems I have with this system: 1. It only works on IE/Win 2. Its quite slow 3. The HTML it produces is similar to a primitive version of front page and is no where near standards compliant. 4. I have noticed some strange bugs between point releases of IE6 (One surrounds each line of content by a blockqoute every time you save thte page. What is the point of going to all the effort of making the web site standards compliant when the end user is just going to butcher the content inside it. Teaching the end user more than basic html (b, ul,h1 etc) can be difficult. Asking someone who is untrained to use Dreamweaver can lead to more standards compliance problems. Has anyone come up with some solutions for helping the client maintain their own content while still retaining standards compliance? Regards, Ned Lukies * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Standards compliant content management system.
On 01/06/2004, at 2:22 PM, Ned Lukies wrote: Has anyone come up with some solutions for helping the client maintain their own content while still retaining standards compliance? a) Macromedia Contribute could work out fine for small stuff, and is really the only GUI option I'd consider -- everything else will be browser based, and result in similar problems to what you're already experiencing. b) Textpattern [1] is a new open source CMS with Textile [2] in it, a standards-compliant web text generator that runs off a sort-off web/email shorthand thing using pure ASCI, so it's cross platform, and the XHTML it generates is nothing short of beautiful. You may consider a complete Textpattern site, or just stripping on Textile for use inside your own system. It's written in PHP by Dean Allen. c) Markdown [3] is a simple Textile-like web text generator written in Perl by John Gruber. It has a smaller range of features than Textile, which is probably a good thing. d) Simon Wilson has also written a few articles and snippets on creating simple, standards compliant mark-up from user input, some of which may rub off on you. [4] 1 http://www.textpattern.com/ 2 http://www.textism.com/tools/textile/ 3 http://daringfireball.net/projects/markdown/ 4 http://simon.incutio.com/archive/2004/04/13/myriadOfMarkupSystems --- Justin French http://indent.com.au * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Should web standards cost more?
mark said: For example I feel that CSS based design takes less time and as such should cost less that a design that has font tags hidden graphics everywhere.(etc etc) Mark... my accountant would have you marched straight to the nearest wall and shot for saying that. Why on earth should we bother to learn the new skills and spend nights crying with frustration in the attempt to build valid accessible sites when financially its going to cost us money!. We dont pay other professional people, say a doctor or a solicitor or hairdresser, less because of his/her knowledge and skill... we pay them what the job is worth...and thats the way it should be as far as i am concerned. I am not charging more for valid sites, I am charging what the job is worth, if i can get the job out faster and more efficiently then good for me... i deserve to be rewarded. No client should be charged for a learning curve, i agree with that wholeheartedly and have never charged for time spent nutting out new skills. However there has to be a value for a site, and just because we have studied and learned new skills to enable us to give the client a better site should not mean we are then given a financial slap in the face for our hard won additional skills. The first few valid sites i built took me 4 times as long to build using css rather than tables and I lost money and sanity hand over fist on those jobs. Now i am starting to reap the benefits of my newfound skills (still not where they should be i hasten to add - but getting there) and I feel no need to justify the value i place on them. My client benefits and so will I. Jackie Reid * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
