[WSG] New Zealand Government Web Guidelines
Hi, NEW ZEALAND GOVERNMENT WEB GUIDELINES I posted to the group late last year regarding formal implementation guidelines that refer to web standards. Mostly these are created by public sector (government) or government-related organisations. For those interested, we've just added a developer's introduction to the New Zealand Government guidelines to our glossary. http://www.motive.co.nz/glossary/nz-web-guidelines.php The guidelines themselves provide an interesting take on web-based communication and could be useful for those grappling with reconciling standards with practise. Cheers, -- Andy Kirkwood (04) 3 800 800, 021 369 693 93 Rintoul St, Newtown, Wellington ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] php-files get horizontal scrollbar ONLY IN IE
I get a horizontal scrollbar (only in IE) in the .php-files which worked fine as long as they were .htm-files. Stefan, it can't be anything about the design, I've now put the width of the inner frameset to 760px (was 660) and it's still the same: http://www.peter-janwagemans.com/wagemans_frames_test/content_1.php (with 660px width: http://www.peter-janwagemans.com/wagemans_frames/content_1.php ) And this stupid horizontal scrollbalk appears only in IE , I've tested in Firefox, Netscape and Mac and everything looks and works fine. And Kornel, sure enough from browsers point of view both are just HTML files, I've looked through all carefully and again can't find nothing, what makes it now appear?? (I've validated and in the frameset are 3 errors: frameborder and framespacing, but when take them out these horrible borders appear; and noframes, but that can't have to do with my problem; In biography.php validation shows 6 errors, but one about some background in a table and 5 about some alt-tags (I'll fix this now), but could this cause a scrollbalk?) Thanks for all hints, Dani - Original Message - From: Stefan Lemmen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2005 11:04 AM Subject: Re: [WSG] php-files get horizontal scrollbar in IE Hi Dani, I think I found the error table width=637 border=0 cellpadding=0 cellspacing=0 background=opmaak/bg_table_n.jpg tr td height=20nbsp;/td tdnbsp;/td td valign=bottom class=pijla href=#benedenimg src=opmaak/pijl_ben.gif alt=naar beneden width=12 height=12 border=0/a/td /tr tr td width=637 colspan=3 valign=top class=content id=text_contentpPeter-Jan Wagemans (1952) is The table should be 637.. but your tds are 637 + 20 (from the image) = 657 together. The td width will overrule the one of the table.. so i think u should try 1st td 617. Hope this helps you. On 4/20/05, Daniela Hoffmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: hi all, ok, I work with frames, but my client want's that (and a content manegment program, so he can update himself). But now I get a horizontal scrollbar (only in IE) in the .php-files which worked fine as long as they were htm-files: http://www.peter-janwagemans.com/wagemans_frames/content_1.php (the htm-files were http://www.atelier-hoffmann.com/wagemans_opt1/ , when he approved of the design). I've tried to widen the frameset but everything gets wider and the scrollbar stays put. And when I validate this frameset there are 3 errors: 'frameborder' and 'framespacing', but when take them out these horrible borders appear; and 'noframes', but I thought I could put some text there like get another browser ect (I'm new to webstandarts, I've learned it that way 3 years ago). I'd love to find out by myself (so many great tutorial sites who's URL's I've found in this group), but now I've got this deadline..., someone knows? Thanks, Dani -- Stefan Lemmen Holland ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] IMAGE(was Mystical belief etc)
Hi all This is starting to push off topic. Please keep it on the topic of accessibility (maybe start a new thread that is more descriptive) or take it elsewhere... and remember our list guidelines about abuse. Thanks James -- admin ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] IMAGE(was Mystical belief etc)
This is tending to drift off-topic, but it is a valid part of standards because we're discussing accessibility issues in relation to design and the role of 'image' in design. (So now I feel better :-). The attitude that says 'visually impaired people don't matter because it isn't for them' may sound insular, but it isn't. It's merely a matter of fact. The evangelists of the 'everything in the world must be accessible to all' camp are striving for the impossible. The logical extension of this extreme attitude is that all art galleries should close down because the totally blind can't see anything in there, and all music should be unavailable because the totally deaf can't hear it, and . . . OK, you get the point. However, I do believe that we must all strive to produce something which can be appreciated by as many folk as possible, including those with accessibility difficulties. So, to take my own case (so I'm not slagging anyone else off) my main business site is primarily flash, and it is totally 'inaccessible in the sense we mean here. [ It's the link in the signature below] So, I've provided an html version too (same 'factual content', different way of going about it - as indeed applies to the FosterPartners site also). My site may not be perfect, but Hey - that's why I'm here : to learn how to make it as near perfect as I'm capable of doing, with help from you guys. So, the point is, to say that 'Flash is awful because it's not accessible' and all that stuff is to completely miss the point - it isn't for folk with disabilities - the html option is. Surely? Bob McClelland, Cornwall (U.K.) www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Accessibility and showcasing heavily visual work (was IMAGE(was Mystical belief etc))
On 4/21/05, designer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The attitude that says 'visually impaired people don't matter because it isn't for them' may sound insular, but it isn't. It's merely a matter of fact. The evangelists of the 'everything in the world must be accessible to all' camp are striving for the impossible. The logical extension of this extreme attitude is that all art galleries should close down because the totally blind can't see anything in there, and all music should be unavailable because the totally deaf can't hear it, and . . . OK, you get the point. Of course everything can't be accessible to all. It's just not possible. What is possible is for there to be a level playing field, so that people can get access to stuff that is then varying levels of accessible to them. Taking the art gallery example: I, as a sighted person can walk into the Tate Modern gallery in London, see all the artwork there, and yet, find none of it accessible, because I just don't get it. A friend of mine, who has a serious sight problem can walk into that same gallery, stand in front of the same pieces of artwork I did, and that same artwork that I don't get is accessible to him. Does he experience it in the same way that I do (i.e., through the visual medium)? Nope. Does that mean that he shouldn't have bothered going to the gallery because he can't see it? Nope. Extending that to the web. I dabble in photography. I really enjoy it, and enjoy the feedback that I get when people look at my photos. I want to put my photos up on line. They're very visual, and frequently, very abstract. I'm passionate about accessibility. I want my friends with sight problems to be able to experience my photos too, even if they can't necessarily get the same level of experience visually as others will. Describing exactly what the subject won't necessarily make my photo accessible. So I tell the story behind it. What made me take it, what I was feeling at the time, whatever I think will get across the same thing I'm trying to get across in the visual medium of the photograph. Because that way, I feel like someone can then either get or not get that photo on an equal level. Just because someone can't walk into a place, look round and immediately go wow doesn't mean that they can't get that wow factor from something else, like the feeling of space, or the fact that the flooring has been designed so they don't fall on their face going up stairs... and if you're showcasing your design skills online, why limit yourself to just the visual? Show off your design skills by designing in more than one dimension! Ok, I'm going to stop ranting and get back to work. pix http://www.pixeldiva.co.uk ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Accessibility and showcasing heavily visual work (was IMAGE(was Mystical belief etc))
So far we've discussed sites that are basically a flash container with a separate html site for accessabilty. What about hybrid sites where the content is primarily xhtml and the visuals or branding utilize a swf(with alternate content of course)? Right now im building a site that is primarily xhtml but uses swfs for a mapping application. I think that hybridizing might offer the best of both worlds. This approach would call for the use of frames ick... if the flash is used for a navigation module. But if the navigation and content use standards why not let the presentation use swfs? -kvnmcwebn ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Accessibility and showcasing heavily visual work (was IMAGE(was Mystical belief etc))
On Wed, 20 Apr 2005 23:14:35 +0100, Kvnmcwebn [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What about hybrid sites where the content is primarily xhtml and the visuals or branding utilize a swf(with alternate content of course)? IMHO that is quite OK, if you put inside object some alternative content (images, mosltly). Don't make menu in Flash. Flash doesn't let user choose to open links in new window/tab. -- regards, Kornel Lesiski ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Accessibility and showcasing heavily visual work (was IMAGE(was Mystical belief etc))
What about hybrid sites where the content is primarily xhtml and the visuals or branding utilize a swf(with alternate content of course)? That's great if it is done by a standards-wise designer, so it's done properly (with the fallback alternatives). -- Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Accessibility and showcasing heavily visual work (was IMAGE(was Mystical belief etc))
- Original Message - From: Jan Brasna [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2005 11:54 AM Subject: Re: [WSG] Accessibility and showcasing heavily visual work (was IMAGE(was Mystical belief etc)) What about hybrid sites where the content is primarily xhtml and the visuals or branding utilize a swf(with alternate content of course)? That's great if it is done by a standards-wise designer, so it's done properly (with the fallback alternatives). Interesting Jan, how would you do that - any examples? Thanks Bob McClelland, Cornwall (U.K.) www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Accessibility and showcasing heavily visual work (was IMAGE(was Mystical belief etc))
Interesting Jan, how would you do that - any examples? Use the object element properly[1] and insert an alternative in there (image, any styled code - even image map[2] etc. ...). No examples, though. Sorry (can't remember any good). [1] http://alistapart.com/articles/flashsatay [2] http://alistapart.com/articles/imagemap -- Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] php-files get horizontal scrollbar ONLY IN IE
Hi Daniela, My first reply didn't make any sense at all when I looked in it further. (I just woke up when I replied) I have had the problem myself too. Couldn't find the problem either. I'm sure there must be a sollution somewhere.. Maybe you could try using some css instead of tables to position inside the frames. I'm sure the problem has to do with the combination frames and tables. Maybe try to position everything in tables and dont use frames at all.. or use frames without using tables. I know this is time-consuming. But I cant give you any better advice at this point. In the future you take a different approach on positioning stuff.. take a look at http://www.csszengarden.com It gave me another look on designing and positioning. Good luck with your project. Hope you find the cause of the problem soon. Stefan Lemmen Holland On 4/21/05, Daniela Hoffmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I get a horizontal scrollbar (only in IE) in the .php-files which worked fine as long as they were .htm-files. Stefan, it can't be anything about the design, I've now put the width of the inner frameset to 760px (was 660) and it's still the same: http://www.peter-janwagemans.com/wagemans_frames_test/content_1.php (with 660px width: http://www.peter-janwagemans.com/wagemans_frames/content_1.php ) And this stupid horizontal scrollbalk appears only in IE , I've tested in Firefox, Netscape and Mac and everything looks and works fine. And Kornel, sure enough from browsers point of view both are just HTML files, I've looked through all carefully and again can't find nothing, what makes it now appear?? (I've validated and in the frameset are 3 errors: frameborder and framespacing, but when take them out these horrible borders appear; and noframes, but that can't have to do with my problem; In biography.php validation shows 6 errors, but one about some background in a table and 5 about some alt-tags (I'll fix this now), but could this cause a scrollbalk?) Thanks for all hints, Dani - Original Message - From: Stefan Lemmen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2005 11:04 AM Subject: Re: [WSG] php-files get horizontal scrollbar in IE Hi Dani, I think I found the error table width=637 border=0 cellpadding=0 cellspacing=0 background=opmaak/bg_table_n.jpg tr td height=20/td td/td td valign=bottom class=pijla href=#benedenimg src=opmaak/pijl_ben.gif alt=naar beneden width=12 height=12 border=0/a/td /tr tr td width=637 colspan=3 valign=top class=content id=text_contentpPeter-Jan Wagemans (1952) is The table should be 637.. but your tds are 637 + 20 (from the image) = 657 together. The td width will overrule the one of the table.. so i think u should try 1st td 617. Hope this helps you. On 4/20/05, Daniela Hoffmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: hi all, ok, I work with frames, but my client want's that (and a content manegment program, so he can update himself). But now I get a horizontal scrollbar (only in IE) in the .php-files which worked fine as long as they were htm-files: http://www.peter-janwagemans.com/wagemans_frames/content_1.php (the htm-files were http://www.atelier-hoffmann.com/wagemans_opt1/ , when he approved of the design). I've tried to widen the frameset but everything gets wider and the scrollbar stays put. And when I validate this frameset there are 3 errors: 'frameborder' and 'framespacing', but when take them out these horrible borders appear; and 'noframes', but I thought I could put some text there like get another browser ect (I'm new to webstandarts, I've learned it that way 3 years ago). I'd love to find out by myself (so many great tutorial sites who's URL's I've found in this group), but now I've got this deadline..., someone knows? Thanks, Dani -- Stefan Lemmen Holland ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** -- Stefan Lemmen Holland ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Ireland web accessibility law?
Dear Sirs. Please give me some advice on Ireland web accessibility guidelines. Is it exist? Some links would be fine. Thanx. Andrey Stefanenko ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] IMAGE(was Mystical belief etc)
So, the point is, to say that 'Flash is awful because it's not accessible' and all that stuff is to completely miss the point - it isn't for folk with disabilities - the html option is. Surely? I'd say Flash is mostly a problem because it frequently breaks all usability and accessibility guidelines AND it's the only thing on the site. Which is fine if your site has absolutely no serious purpose, but not good if you're a business. Not that Flash is incapable of being created in an accessible manner or anything; just that it is a format which lends itself more to art than communication. As I've taken to saying... there's a reason it's called Flash and not Substance ;) Most of it boils down to how you use it... just like PDF, it's ok if used carefully; but terrible when used for vil ;) cheers, h -- --- http://www.200ok.com.au/ --- The future has arrived; it's just not --- evenly distributed. - William Gibson ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] php-files get horizontal scrollbar ONLY IN IE
maybe this will help you: http://www.webmasterworld.com/forum21/9798.htm Stefan Lemmen Holland On 4/21/05, Stefan Lemmen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Daniela, My first reply didn't make any sense at all when I looked in it further. (I just woke up when I replied) I have had the problem myself too. Couldn't find the problem either. I'm sure there must be a sollution somewhere.. Maybe you could try using some css instead of tables to position inside the frames. I'm sure the problem has to do with the combination frames and tables. Maybe try to position everything in tables and dont use frames at all.. or use frames without using tables. I know this is time-consuming. But I cant give you any better advice at this point. In the future you take a different approach on positioning stuff.. take a look at http://www.csszengarden.com It gave me another look on designing and positioning. Good luck with your project. Hope you find the cause of the problem soon. Stefan Lemmen Holland On 4/21/05, Daniela Hoffmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I get a horizontal scrollbar (only in IE) in the .php-files which worked fine as long as they were .htm-files. Stefan, it can't be anything about the design, I've now put the width of the inner frameset to 760px (was 660) and it's still the same: http://www.peter-janwagemans.com/wagemans_frames_test/content_1.php (with 660px width: http://www.peter-janwagemans.com/wagemans_frames/content_1.php ) And this stupid horizontal scrollbalk appears only in IE , I've tested in Firefox, Netscape and Mac and everything looks and works fine. And Kornel, sure enough from browsers point of view both are just HTML files, I've looked through all carefully and again can't find nothing, what makes it now appear?? (I've validated and in the frameset are 3 errors: frameborder and framespacing, but when take them out these horrible borders appear; and noframes, but that can't have to do with my problem; In biography.php validation shows 6 errors, but one about some background in a table and 5 about some alt-tags (I'll fix this now), but could this cause a scrollbalk?) Thanks for all hints, Dani - Original Message - From: Stefan Lemmen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2005 11:04 AM Subject: Re: [WSG] php-files get horizontal scrollbar in IE Hi Dani, I think I found the error table width=637 border=0 cellpadding=0 cellspacing=0 background=opmaak/bg_table_n.jpg tr td height=20/td td/td td valign=bottom class=pijla href=#benedenimg src=opmaak/pijl_ben.gif alt=naar beneden width=12 height=12 border=0/a/td /tr tr td width=637 colspan=3 valign=top class=content id=text_contentpPeter-Jan Wagemans (1952) is The table should be 637.. but your tds are 637 + 20 (from the image) = 657 together. The td width will overrule the one of the table.. so i think u should try 1st td 617. Hope this helps you. On 4/20/05, Daniela Hoffmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: hi all, ok, I work with frames, but my client want's that (and a content manegment program, so he can update himself). But now I get a horizontal scrollbar (only in IE) in the .php-files which worked fine as long as they were htm-files: http://www.peter-janwagemans.com/wagemans_frames/content_1.php (the htm-files were http://www.atelier-hoffmann.com/wagemans_opt1/ , when he approved of the design). I've tried to widen the frameset but everything gets wider and the scrollbar stays put. And when I validate this frameset there are 3 errors: 'frameborder' and 'framespacing', but when take them out these horrible borders appear; and 'noframes', but I thought I could put some text there like get another browser ect (I'm new to webstandarts, I've learned it that way 3 years ago). I'd love to find out by myself (so many great tutorial sites who's URL's I've found in this group), but now I've got this deadline..., someone knows? Thanks, Dani -- Stefan Lemmen Holland ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** -- Stefan Lemmen Holland ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help
Re: [WSG] Ireland web accessibility law?
hi andrey, Dont design for broadband anyway. Outside of Dublin, Cork and a few other cities our only options here are SLOW DIAL UP connections or overpriced isdn lines. Also i would more or less make the majority of your content visible at 800 x 600 screen resolution. -kvnmcwebn ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Accessibility and showcasing heavily visual work (was IMAGE(was Mystical belief etc))
One example that uses the satay method and i think some of the other things that were talking about here is. www.disney.com. I think there is also one in the css vault. If you do a search for flash there your will find it. -kvnmcwebn ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] php-files get horizontal scrollbar ONLY IN IE
Daniela Hoffmann wrote: I get a horizontal scrollbar (only in IE) Jeez, I'd almost gotten over the days of framesets... *shiver* :) Dani, have you tried changing the 'scrolling' attribute from 'auto' to 'yes' on the 'mainFrame' frame? cheers, Stuart -- === El Bombin http://elbombin.stuarthomfray.co.uk Stuart Homfray http://www.stuarthomfray.co.uk === ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] safari list question
Is there a filter for Safari?
I'd like to define no-repeat for the rest of the browsers and hide it from
safari.
Thanks
Ted
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Philippe Wittenbergh
Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2005 8:26 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] safari list question
On 21 Apr 2005, at 12:58 am, Drake, Ted C. wrote:
However, in Safari, the bullet is appearing, as it should, on a list
and
then immediately above bullet is a half bullet. This is really odd. It
is
repeating the background image.
Here's the style:
ul li {list-style-type:none; background: url(bg-bullets.png) no-repeat
0
5px; padding-left:12px;}
Safari has problems with background-repeat:no-repeat. A problem that is
*not* fixed in the latest release (1.3) and will probably be there in
the 2.0 version of OX X Tiger (10.4).
A similar problem is seen here (hover should move the image).
http://dev.l-c-n.com/safari/background-hover.php
The problem is *less* pronounced if you move the image horizontally.
A solution is to space out the fragments of your sprite more, or put
them in an horizontal row.
Philippe
---/---
Philippe Wittenbergh
now live : http://emps.l-c-n.com/
code | design | web projects : http://www.l-c-n.com/
IE5 Mac bugs and oddities : http://www.l-c-n.com/IE5tests/
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
Re: [WSG] IMAGE(was Mystical belief etc)
This reply shifts focus a bit, but with the word aesthetics being considered relevant to the discussion, if not the only norm for design of websites, I'd like to speak up for the semiotic dimension. Images also speak like words, but more shimmeringly. I don't refer to an animation or Flash effect on the computer screen, but to be precise the use of the symbol of Cross with lightning effects and blue luminscent sky in relation to a text by the orginal author about a Mystical something that was no good. Why what's his name's page had to exploit that particular symbol is not only poor taste but carries a subliminal message that completely overwhelmed his point, his surface-text, and any trust this Christian can put in his remarks. He played with creating blindness to his own textual message, and left some readers with a blindspot for anything he has to say. At the least, he proved himself to be semiotically ignorant, and postmodernist to the extreme in toying with symbols that are sacred to a huge part of the online some of whom may actually be on this WebStandards list. I lost my way a bit in finding how to enter the discussion, and want to make clear that I appreciate heretic's contributions to the whole thread. I'm sighted so I'm just getting used to the problems and dilemmas our blind members may have, and am just learning about them. And above I used blindness as a metaphor for my own sighted semiotics problem with the original critique, I hope I did so without furthering offense. On 4/21/05, heretic [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So, the point is, to say that 'Flash is awful because it's not accessible' and all that stuff is to completely miss the point - it isn't for folk with disabilities - the html option is. Surely? I'd say Flash is mostly a problem because it frequently breaks all usability and accessibility guidelines AND it's the only thing on the site. Which is fine if your site has absolutely no serious purpose, but not good if you're a business. Not that Flash is incapable of being created in an accessible manner or anything; just that it is a format which lends itself more to art than communication. As I've taken to saying... there's a reason it's called Flash and not Substance ;) Most of it boils down to how you use it... just like PDF, it's ok if used carefully; but terrible when used for vil ;) cheers, h -- --- http://www.200ok.com.au/ --- The future has arrived; it's just not --- evenly distributed. - William Gibson ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] IMAGE(was Mystical belief etc)
On Thu, 21 Apr 2005 16:46:13 +1000, heretic wrote: Maybe architecture is different in america, but here in australia architects write the construction specification which has very little to do with how anything looks. Yes, aesthetics are a really significant part of the job; however so is function... and if they forget the wheelchair ramps they're in some serious trouble. I think the architect attitude is present here in Australia too - I completed the first phase of a project for an architect a little while ago, and it was maturing quite nicely for them (somehow I had even managed to avoid the Google Sandbox - I'd like to know how I managed that!) with traffic growing, but apparently it wasn't speccy enough and they found themselves a tafe student who would redo it in flash. Unfortunately it appears to be completely inaccessible flash (where they are residential architects and their biggest market segment is the older generation :( ) (I should have seen the signs - they kept showing me speccy sites from around the world done in flash with 8 pt type. Bad me.) Now it is dropping out of Google and they want to know why and how they can fix it. *sigh* It is bizarre how architects seem more concerned with form than function when one would expect that if they stopped and compared it to their own work they would see the analogies. I think a common comparison we make is to mention wheelchair access et al for public buildings and yet, your typical architect will make their business sites to impress their competition not their customer. :( Lea ~ looking for a permanent position in Brisbane. Contact me for CV. -- Lea de Groot Elysian Systems - I Understand the Internet http://elysiansystems.com/ Search Engine Optimisation, Usability, Information Architecture, Web Design Brisbane, Australia ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] helpful links
Hi All I just finished doing a workshop in Vancouver at the Museums on the Web conference. I showed museum web site people how they could convert their sites to standards-based/xhtml/css with my friend Brian Rountree. After the workshop, I posted a set of links that were compiled from our bookmark lists. I figured it would help the participants. Jeffrey Zeldman just posted a link to my site, so I guess the list would be good for everyone. I never really gave it much thought. So, here's the link to my site. I hope the list is helpful for you http://www.tdrake.net. I really need fix my style sheets so that it isn't the generic layout. I'll be putting a set of pages up soon documenting the transformation of the Inuit Heritage Trust web site while at the conference. Ted ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Heads up re: skipNav and other jump links
Hi all, I've noticed that many of you are using a container ID as a named anchor (to create a skip nav for example), but I'm not sure if you're all aware that this creates an accessibility issue: the user can jump to the location, but is unable to tab past it. Also, I've found that most of the techniques work when it comes to the jumping part, but making sure tabbing navigation is not disturbed is not that simple. For example it appears that a name=content/a is not bullet proof while a href=# name=content/a is. I've also noticed that if one uses display:none to style a named anchor, MSIE can't find its location (FF seems to be OK with it). One last thing: for the UA, case is not an issue, so a jump link (#content) would work, but tabbing navigation would fail if the anchor named content is contained in a DIV named CONTENT. Anybody knows why empty anchors are not 100% reliable when it comes to tabbing navigation? I just can't figure it out... Regards, Thierry | http://www.TJKDesign.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Heads up re: skipNav and other jump links
I've been replacing my a name=deepcontent/a with h3 id=deepcontent Or something similar. Isn't that the most appropriate way of going? Are you saying this would cause accessibility issues with tabbing? I thought name was deprecated. Ted -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Thierry Koblentz Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2005 3:31 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] Heads up re: skipNav and other jump links Also, I've found that most of the techniques work when it comes to the jumping part, but making sure tabbing navigation is not disturbed is not that simple. For example it appears that a name=content/a is not bullet proof while a href=# name=content/a is. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Heads up re: skipNav and other jump links
Drake, Ted C. wrote: I've been replacing my a name=deepcontent/a with h3 id=deepcontent Or something similar. Isn't that the most appropriate way of going? Hi Ted, Try the 2 methods and you'll see how the latter solution disturbs tabbing navigation. Using the former allows UAs to jump to that location, but once there, the user cannot tab *from there*. On her next tab, she is brought back to where she comes from, or even farther up. Thierry | http://www.TJKDesign.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Window Pop-ups
Hello! I am writing website develoment guidelines that will be distributed to vendors for conforming to the web standards. I haven't been able to get more information on the implementation of pop-ups and how it will be read by assistive technologies. Does anyone know more about this? We are building a complex application that will require pop-ups to appear. Currently, we are alerting the user that the link will open in a new window. Is this suffiecient to address the w3c guidlines? Regards LS
Re: [WSG] Web standards as a selling point?
Hi, I want to express my gratitude to all who answered my question regarding the Web standards as a selling point. I only managed to read through all your messages today, your answers have helped me clarified some doubts I have. Regards, tee From: Jan Brasna [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 19:31:13 +0200 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Web standards as a selling point? When I hire a professional I'm paying them to use their knowledge and expertise ... Along these lines, Do we really need to tell clients, or whoever, how we make a Web page? I agree, I don't want any latin things or the precise workflow :) when going to surgery. The only thing I want to know, how is it done from the scope of myself (eg. we'll do this, therefore... and then you can ... and then that's all ok ... happily ever after... :D), the precise description is IMHO for them. -- Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Ireland web accessibility law?
This may be helpful, Irish National Disability Authority IT Accessibility Guidelines Legislation and Policy http://accessit.nda.ie/policy_and_legislation.html with regards Steven Faulkner Web Accessibility Consultant National Information Library Service (NILS) 454 Glenferrie Road Kooyong Victoria 3144 Phone: (613) 9864 9281 Fax: (613) 9864 9210 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] National Information Library Service A subsidiary of RBS.RVIB.VAF Ltd. |-+- | | Andrey Stefanenko | | | andrey.stefanenko| | | @it.net.ua | | | Sent by: | | | [EMAIL PROTECTED]| | | roup.org | | | | | | | | | 21/04/2005 10:07 | | | PM| | | Please respond to | | | wsg | | | | |-+- ---| | | | To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org | | cc: | | Subject: [WSG] Ireland web accessibility law? | ---| Dear Sirs. Please give me some advice on Ireland web accessibility guidelines. Is it exist? Some links would be fine. Thanx. Andrey Stefanenko ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Please review http://www.mad4f1.com
The site looks good, works well with Safari, Mozilla, FireFox, Netscape, IE, and Opera. Good content layout, and best of all no tables. - Anthony On 4/21/05, Pixel n Paints [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi guys, I am freelancer from INDIA... I have designed a website http://www.mad4f1.com for one of my client CSS JS HTML with NO TABLE tags to make it more search engine friendly... I tried to make it ... cross browser compatible But I am facing problem with footer in IE.. a DIV TAG with Class= footer gets overlaid. not always but sometimes. Need suggestions, feedback -- Thanks, Sachin K
Re: [WSG] Re: flash css hybrid example
I must say this site has a very well designed layout and wonderful structure. I esp. like the Flash implementation. - Anthony On 4/21/05, Kvnmcwebn [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Heres a good example of a hybrid site that uses flash for presentation and css for content as someone had requested earlier. http://www.bensaunders.com/blog_archives.php -Kvncmwebn ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Please review http://www.mad4f1.com
Very nice site presentation and I love the way that everything fits in with the theme. Nice use of standards. Very nice site. On 4/21/05, Anthony Yeung [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The site looks good, works well with Safari, Mozilla, FireFox,Netscape, IE, and Opera. Good content layout, and best of all no tables.- AnthonyOn 4/21/05, Pixel n Paints [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi guys, I am freelancer from INDIA... I have designed a website http://www.mad4f1.com for one of my client CSS JS HTML with NO TABLE tags to make it more search engine friendly... I tried to make it ... cross browser compatible But I am facing problem with footer in IE..a DIV TAG with Class= footer gets overlaid. not always but sometimes. Need suggestions, feedback -- Thanks, Sachin K -- Anthony TimberlakeCo-Owner of StaticHost Internet Services - http://www.statichost.co.ukHead Director at Spike Radio - http://www.spikeradio.org
Re: [WSG] Please review http://www.mad4f1.com
A few comments: - the 'driver standings' and 'team standings' are data tables and need to be marked up as tables using the appropriate elements -appears to contain no semantic structure elements (e.g no heading or list markup) -invalid html -no alt attributes on IMG elements with regards Steven Faulkner Web Accessibility Consultant National Information Library Service (NILS) 454 Glenferrie Road Kooyong Victoria 3144 Phone: (613) 9864 9281 Fax: (613) 9864 9210 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] National Information Library Service A subsidiary of RBS.RVIB.VAF Ltd. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Please review http://www.mad4f1.com
On Thu, 2005-04-21 at 21:36, Pixel n Paints wrote: Hi guys, I am freelancer from INDIA... I have designed a website http://www.mad4f1.com for one of my client CSS JS HTML with NO TABLE tags to make it more search engine friendly... I tried to make it ... cross browser compatible But I am facing problem with footer in IE.. a DIV TAG with Class= footer gets overlaid. not always but sometimes. One thing from an accessibility POV is that the menu is a bunch of links. These are better off being in an unordered list. Also use have a lot of styles in the HTML. It;s easier from a maintenance POV to have these in an external file Need suggestions, feedback -- Bruce Morrison designIT http://www.designit.com.au ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
