Re: [WSG] float (?) problem with Safari

[tee]

> I've got a 3-column layout, with dropdown menus, here:
> 
> http://home.vicnet.net.au/~persia/final/test.html
> 
> The left & right cols are floated. This seems to work ok in IE, Moz & Firefox
> on PC and Moz & NN7 on Mac. Safari doesn't like it, however and pops the left
> col out to the right side of the layout. The rest then follows underneath as
> normal.
> 
> If I remove the navbars5.css, which is used to style the menus, then the
> columns behave as they should. My guess is that something floated in
> navbars5.css needs clearing - have tried this, to no avail. Not sure why it
> only affects Safari.
> 
> Any suggestions appreciated.
> 
> TIA
> 
Hi Robin, I don't have a clue how to fix your problem. Just wanted you to
know it the horizontal menu is out of place on IE 5.2 mac. It goes up to the
top and overlapping the search box. The vertical menu too, overlapping the
blue background; the dropdown menu, however works well in IE 5.2.
In Safari (Jaguar), the dropdown disappears as soon as I try to move my
cursor to the submenu links. It's like a pingpong ball that sometimes I am
able to catch it when I am swift enough.

tee

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Re: [WSG] float (?) problem with Safari

[Leslie Riggs]

Hello Robin,
As is customary, I ran your site through the W3C validator.  It shows 
that there is no doctype declaration, and there are 13 validation 
errors, most related to the lack of a doctype declaration.  Fixing those 
might not fix your problem but it'll ensure your code is more standards 
compliant and clean, so it's a good start.

Leslie Riggs
Hi
I've got a 3-column layout, with dropdown menus, here:
http://home.vicnet.net.au/~persia/final/test.html
The left & right cols are floated. This seems to work ok in IE, Moz & Firefox on PC 
and Moz & NN7 on Mac. Safari doesn't like it, however and pops the left col out to the 
right side of the layout. The rest then follows underneath as normal.
If I remove the navbars5.css, which is used to style the menus, then the 
columns behave as they should. My guess is that something floated in 
navbars5.css needs clearing - have tried this, to no avail. Not sure why it 
only affects Safari.
Any suggestions appreciated.
TIA
 

Robin Gallagher
   

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RE: [WSG] Re: Padding tables in IE

[Andreas Boehmer [Addictive Media]]

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ned Collyer
> Sent: Tuesday, 3 May 2005 1:57 PM
> To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
> Subject: [WSG] Re: Padding tables in IE
> 
> Andreas,
> 
> You have:
> > #draft table{padding:0 15px 0 25px;}
> 
> Ideally with 
> 
>   
>   
> 
> 
> you want to either add padding to 
> #draft
> 
> or margin to the 
> #draft table
> 
> Padding puts space inside between the element and its content
> 
> Margin sets amount of space outside an element. (in this case, you
> want margin around the outside of the table)

Hi Ned, thanks for the help. The problem is that the background image is
partially inside the table. So if I give table a margin it will move the
background image as well.

I meanwhile found a solution by taking the background images completely out
of the table, but it's not the best way, I find. I would have preferred
using thead and tbody to hold the images, without having to add unnecessary
DIVs around my tables.

> Also, i think it would be in your best interests to validate your
> work.  There are heaps of issues reported when I validate it.

Yep, will do so! 

Cheers,

Andreas.


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[WSG] float (?) problem with Safari

[Gallagher, Robin]

Hi

I've got a 3-column layout, with dropdown menus, here:

http://home.vicnet.net.au/~persia/final/test.html

The left & right cols are floated. This seems to work ok in IE, Moz & Firefox 
on PC and Moz & NN7 on Mac. Safari doesn't like it, however and pops the left 
col out to the right side of the layout. The rest then follows underneath as 
normal.

If I remove the navbars5.css, which is used to style the menus, then the 
columns behave as they should. My guess is that something floated in 
navbars5.css needs clearing - have tried this, to no avail. Not sure why it 
only affects Safari.

Any suggestions appreciated.

TIA

> Robin Gallagher
> 
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[WSG] Re: Padding tables in IE

[Ned Collyer]

Andreas,

You have:
> #draft table{padding:0 15px 0 25px;}

Ideally with 

  
  


you want to either add padding to 
#draft

or margin to the 
#draft table

Padding puts space inside between the element and its content

Margin sets amount of space outside an element. (in this case, you
want margin around the outside of the table)

Also, i think it would be in your best interests to validate your
work.  There are heaps of issues reported when I validate it.

Rgds

Ned Collyer

> 

> Any ideas on how this could be fixed?
> 
> Thanks heaps!
> 
> Andreas Boehmer
> User Experience Consultant
> 
> Phone: (03) 9386 8907
> Mobile: (0411) 097 038
> http://www.addictiveMedia.com.au
> Consulting | Accessibility | Usability | Development
> 
>
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Re: [WSG] Mystery connection of css and non-liquid design

[Felix Miata]

Vicki Berry wrote:
 
> I can't speak for anyone else but as displays (monitors/resolution) get
> larger and larger, liquid designs (IMO) start to look ridiculous.
 
> Text is easier to read in short stretches than in loong
> lines across a page. It's an accessibility thing.

It need not be a problem:
http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/auth/fflinelength.html
-- 
"Through Him all things were made; without Him nothing was made
that has been made."John 1:3 NIV

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409

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Re: [WSG] Combination of CSS menu with dhtm/javascript menu button?

[Thierry Koblentz]

Michael Wilson wrote:
> It works in NN6 Win, but I'm not sure about NN on Mac; that fix link I
> posted earlier has a listing of tested browsers.

Michael,
I've tested this page [1] in NN v6.2.3 on XPPro and it does not work. 

Regards,
Thierry | http://www.TJKDesign.com

[1] http://www.htmldog.com/articles/suckerfish/dropdowns/example/bones1.html
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Re: [WSG] Combination of CSS menu with dhtm/javascript menu button?

[Michael Wilson]

Thierry Koblentz wrote:
tee wrote:
doesn't work for IE 5.2 Mac, it's out of question.

I believe it doesn't work in NN6 either.
It works in NN6 Win, but I'm not sure about NN on Mac; that fix link I 
posted earlier has a listing of tested browsers.

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M. Wilson
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Re: [WSG] Combination of CSS menu with dhtm/javascript menu button?

[Michael Wilson]

Thierry Koblentz wrote:
tee wrote:
doesn't work for IE 5.2 Mac, it's out of question.

I believe it doesn't work in NN6 either.
It works in NN6 Win, but I'm not sure about NN on Mac; that fix link I 
posted earlier has a listing of tested browsers.

--
Best regards,
M. Wilson
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Re: [WSG] Combination of CSS menu with dhtm/javascript menu button?

[tee]

> tee wrote:
>> doesn't work for IE 5.2 Mac, it's out of question.
> 
> I believe it doesn't work in NN6 either.
> 
> Tee, I've sent you an email off-list, let me know if you don't get it.
> 
Thanks Thierry, Sorry I didn't response. Was caught up with a lengthy
conversation with client over the phone when you message arrived.
I will try your TJK Design menu definitely, and will give you credit of
course, however it will have to be in the html and css code though (is this
OK?). Once it's done, I will send you the url.

Thanks a lot.

tee

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Re: [WSG] Combination of CSS menu with dhtm/javascript menu button?

[Thierry Koblentz]

tee wrote:
> doesn't work for IE 5.2 Mac, it's out of question.

I believe it doesn't work in NN6 either.

Tee, I've sent you an email off-list, let me know if you don't get it. 

Thierry | http://www.TJKDesign.com
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[WSG] Standards-based Hit Counter

[standards]

Dear Group,

I hope this is on-topic. I recently persuaded a client to convert their
table-based design to a standards CSS-based design using XHTML Strict. The
entire site validates.

However, despite my strong oppisition they want to implement a "Hit
Counter," and I'm concerned that it will produce uncompliant results. Does
anyone know of a "hit Counter" that produces accurate results that won't
prevent the homepage from validating?

Please reply to me directly.

Thanks in advance!

Respectfully yours,
Mario S. Cisneros


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Re: [WSG] Combination of CSS menu with dhtm/javascript menu button?

[Michael Wilson]

tee wrote:
Thanks! Not trying to discredit the effort of SOS creator, but it doesn't
work for IE 5.2 Mac, it's out of question.
I don't think SoS not working in Mac IE 5.2 is a discredit even if you 
were trying. :) Personally, I've never given it too much thought. 
Regardless, if you use the method I outlined in the previous post, it 
degrades quite nicely or you can see this Mac IE 5 fix for more 
possibilities:


--
Best regards,
Michael Wilson
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Re: [WSG] Combination of CSS menu with dhtm/javascript menu button?

[tee]

Thanks Thierry, I was at your site yesterday reading your tjkdesign dropdown
tutorial. It definitely looks promising (works for IE 5.2 Mac) but I wasn't
sure if I can borrow the code to my client' website as I don't see the CC
license logo. Anything that requires my client pay more than what is already
agreed is out of question.


Regards,

Tee

> tee wrote:
>> Seven, but I really prefer to stay with css menu as it delivers
>> cleaner code. I was thinking perhaps I can insert one dhtml menu in
> 
> Son of suckerfish dropdowns:
> http://www.htmldog.com/articles/suckerfish/dropdowns/
> 
> I'm a bit biased about this one:
> http://www.tjkdesign.com/articles/dropdown/demo.asp
> 
> HTH,
> Thierry | http://www.TJKDesign.com
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Re: [WSG] Combination of CSS menu with dhtm/javascript menu button?

[tee]

> If you take the implementation of your navigation one step further and
> give your top-level navigation items ("menu 4" for example) a "home"
> page that also provides the links found in the dropdown, IE users with
> JavaScript turned off can still easily navigate the site with only one
> additional click and users with JavaScript and CSS disabled get a
> standard list. Along with the links, you can also add link descriptions
> or other content to the pages that normally won't fit into a dropdown. I
> find this method far more intuitive and search engine friendly than a
> simple one or two word cue in a dropdown link and even if you still use
> dropdowns, it's beneficial.
> 
> [01] 
> [02] 
> 
> -- 
Thanks! Not trying to discredit the effort of SOS creator, but it doesn't
work for IE 5.2 Mac, it's out of question.

Tee

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Re: [WSG] recreating a table form with simple floating

[Peter J. Farrell]

On Sat, 30 Apr 2005 21:41:11 +0100, tee <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I need to create a complex online order form that look something like
this:
http://www.melsmarket.com/cgi-bin/orderonline.cgi
 

All I have to say, is...
Tidy: 486 warnings, 7 errors - Too many warnings to display
--
Peter J. Farrell :: Maestro Publishing
blog:: http://blog.maestropublishing.com
email   :: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Create boilerplate beans!
Check out the Mach-II Bean Creator - free download.
http://blog.maestropublishing.com/mach-ii_beaner.htm
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[WSG] recreating a table form with simple floating

[Drake, Ted C.]

That's not so difficult
object namered stuff
text
Repeat.


In the style sheet, you know how wide your fieldset is going to be, let's
say 500px. 
Give your label and check box a width that ends up being half the distance:
Label:width:225px checkbox width;20px. 
Now, float them all to the left.
There won't be enough room for a third checkbox and it will look like  you
want.
Label span {color:red} 
Label {color:black}
Label a {link style}

Ted
http://www.tdrake.net

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Hugues Brunelle
Sent: Saturday, April 30, 2005 8:07 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: RE: [WSG] To table or not to table, the form question

That a good solution but I think you could simplify it by this :


Whatever your term that must appear after your input text box


Where :
label {float: left; clear: none; width: 49%;}


 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Kornel Lesinski
Sent: April 30, 2005 16:51
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] To table or not to table, the form question

On Sat, 30 Apr 2005 21:41:11 +0100, tee <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I need to create a complex online order form that look something like
> this:
> http://www.melsmarket.com/cgi-bin/orderonline.cgi
>
> Haven't start yet but I already imagine it will be a big headache if 
> using CSS, especially copying with the IE, not to mention the tedious 
> code for the float left float right and clear both.

There you go:




div {float: left; clear: right; width: 49%;}
* html div {clear: both;}
div.odd {float: right; width: 49%;}
h3 {clear: both;}


--
regards, Kornel Lesiński

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Re: [WSG] Combination of CSS menu with dhtm/javascript menu button?

[Michael Wilson]

tee wrote:
I have a horizontal menu done in CSS with set current option. menu 1
||  menu 2   ||  menu 3   ||  menu 4   ||  menu 5   ||  menu 6   || 
but now my client wants to insert drop-down menu in menu 4 button.
This can easily be done with DHTML menu that I have from Project
Seven, but I really prefer to stay with css menu as it delivers
cleaner code.
Hi,
PVII recently released Pop Menu Magic [01], which is "CSS Text-based, 
Section 508 and WAI AAA conformant", but if you are after cleaner 
markup, *minimal JavaScript*, and simple CSS, it doesn't get much better 
than Sons of Suckerfish Dropdowns (SoS) [02]. The little bit of 
JavaScript used in SoS is only in place to help IE deal with non-anchor 
hovers and is extremely simple to work with; the rest is all standards 
based CSS and markup. Aside from being an overall cleaner solution, SoS 
isn't tied to any particular editor (Dreamweaver in this case), which 
also provides a bit more freedom and ease of maintenance. If, however, 
you like the "animated" style dropdowns, you'll likely have to stick 
with PVII.

If you take the implementation of your navigation one step further and 
give your top-level navigation items ("menu 4" for example) a "home" 
page that also provides the links found in the dropdown, IE users with 
JavaScript turned off can still easily navigate the site with only one 
additional click and users with JavaScript and CSS disabled get a 
standard list. Along with the links, you can also add link descriptions 
or other content to the pages that normally won't fit into a dropdown. I 
find this method far more intuitive and search engine friendly than a 
simple one or two word cue in a dropdown link and even if you still use 
dropdowns, it's beneficial.

[01] 
[02] 
--
Best regards,
Michael Wilson
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Re: [WSG] Combination of CSS menu with dhtm/javascript menu button?

[Thierry Koblentz]

tee wrote:
> Seven, but I really prefer to stay with css menu as it delivers
> cleaner code. I was thinking perhaps I can insert one dhtml menu in

Son of suckerfish dropdowns:
http://www.htmldog.com/articles/suckerfish/dropdowns/

I'm a bit biased about this one:
http://www.tjkdesign.com/articles/dropdown/demo.asp

HTH,
Thierry | http://www.TJKDesign.com
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Re: [WSG] Combination of CSS menu with dhtm/javascript menu button?

[Chris Gandolfo]

Just so you're not ostracized by the group, I'll provide this handy
little link about what dhtml is and isn't.  Check out the section
under "DHTML is NOT a W3C Standard".

http://www.w3schools.com/dhtml/dhtml_intro.asp

On 5/2/05, tee <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I have a horizontal menu done in CSS with set current option.
> menu 1   ||  menu 2   ||  menu 3   ||  menu 4   ||  menu 5   ||  menu 6   ||
> 
> but now my client wants to insert drop-down menu in menu 4 button. This can
> easily be done with DHTML menu that I have from Project Seven, but I really
> prefer to stay with css menu as it delivers cleaner code. I was thinking
> perhaps I can insert one dhtml menu in my existing css menu, with a bit of
> twisting, that shouldn't be too difficult, but I must admit, it's over my
> head, as soon as I started to implementing it, the first obstacles I
> encounter is how to replace the  to 
> that PV II generated.
> 
> There will only have two links in the drop-down menu, I can settle for
> either vertical :submenu 1 
> submenu 2 
> 
> or horizontal: submenu 1   ||  submenu 2  
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> tee
> 
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> 


-- 
Chris Gandolfo
{Designer & Standards Advocate}
Twelve Horses
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[WSG] Combination of CSS menu with dhtm/javascript menu button?

[tee]

I have a horizontal menu done in CSS with set current option.
menu 1   ||  menu 2   ||  menu 3   ||  menu 4   ||  menu 5   ||  menu 6   ||

but now my client wants to insert drop-down menu in menu 4 button. This can
easily be done with DHTML menu that I have from Project Seven, but I really
prefer to stay with css menu as it delivers cleaner code. I was thinking
perhaps I can insert one dhtml menu in my existing css menu, with a bit of
twisting, that shouldn't be too difficult, but I must admit, it's over my
head, as soon as I started to implementing it, the first obstacles I
encounter is how to replace the  to 
that PV II generated.

There will only have two links in the drop-down menu, I can settle for
either vertical :submenu 1 
submenu 2 

or horizontal: submenu 1   ||  submenu 2  


Thanks!

tee




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Re: [WSG] Mystery connection of css and non-liquid design

[Peter Ottery]

On 5/2/05, Gunlaug Sørtun <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Andreas Boehmer [Addictive Media] wrote:> Something I find really strange is that a lot of people who put> emphasis on Web Standards suddenly found their way back to> non-liquid, 800px, centered design. I am wondering why that is?


i really admire a well made fluid width site. I think a fixed width
site is potentially easier to maintain and set boundaries and limits
for people who may be providing content to a site (like a definte size
for a feature picture whos size may form a strong element to the page
layout). 

I dont see the argument of "if your site layout is a clone of someone
elses its not as good as a completely unique layout" as a valid one.
Site design is becoming mature. Design patterns (or dare i say
'standard') that make sense and work (like fixed width and a top nav
strip) emerge and these patterns are reused simply because they work,
not because someone is lazy and copied. (I'm talking about layouts in
general here, not outright copying of graphic design - thats obviously
not an admirable quality.) 

As with lots of things in this game, it comes down to what your
situation is. of course the beauty of a css layout is if you and your
client change your mind, you can easily change your site to behave
differently with a few css tweaks :)

anyway, thats just my 2c :)
pete ottery

Re: [WSG] Mystery connection of css and non-liquid design

[Philippe Wittenbergh]

and I found this answer (Fixed or fluid width? Elastic!) here
I was going to say so... Elastic design !
As Ingo noted, there is quite a bit of discussion on the subject. 
Besides the usual arguments, one aspect I haven't seen mentioned often. 
Webcontent is seen on a variety of displays : mobile phones, laptop 
computers, desktop computers,... each with different screen real estate 
and resolution. Then comes the Mac Mini and other 'digital home 
centres'. View your site on your television, with yet another 
resolution, and from yet another viewing distance.


(- pixels are so last century.)
Philippe
---/---
Philippe Wittenbergh
now live : 
code | design | web projects : 
IE5 Mac bugs and oddities : 
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Re: [WSG] Mystery connection of css and non-liquid design

[Gunlaug Sørtun]

Andreas Boehmer [Addictive Media] wrote:
Something I find really strange is that a lot of people who put 
emphasis on Web Standards suddenly found their way back to 
non-liquid, 800px, centered design. I am wondering why that is?
Makes me wonder too. :-)
I find this amazing: when I browse the web and come across one of 
those pages I don't even have to look at the code: it's almost 90% 
certain that the site was done in CSS.
...and I'm sure most of them are structural copies of someone else's
solutions - which are copies... of copies...
---
Generally: I think most designers takes the easy way out when they ditch
tables and start working with CSS.
- Controlling liquid or quasi-liquid CSS layouts is slightly harder than
keeping control of fixed layouts.
- Min/max control doesn't work by default in IE (important point).
- Line-length (text) is better kept short (important point).
- 800px width is "safe" since "everyone" have larger screens.
- "If everyone else is doing it -- why shouldn't I".
- Showcases of type 'csszengarden' are often made for design only -- not
for delivering content.
What's "right" and what's "wrong" isn't - or at least shouldn't be - an
issue, of course.
However, all types of layouts provides the same degree of control when
one have learned how to control them, so web designers of today should
at least learn how to handle all of them -- in all combinations.
Choices are better made when we know and understand all the pros and
cons of all available alternatives. That takes time... which is better
spent on killing bugs..(?)
regards
Georg
--
http://www.gunlaug.no
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Re: [WSG] Padding tables in IE

[Peter Ottery]

Andreas Boehmer  wrote:
Gee, that's a new one to me! Is  a HTML 4 tag? I've never come acrossit. 

absolutely, a quick googling turns this article up - looks like quite a good rundown...
http://www.yourhtmlsource.com/tables/tablesaccessibility.html

or theres always the  w3c spec if youre up for a really  invigorating read ;-)
http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/struct/tables.html#h-11.2.4

Andreas Boehmer  wrote:
>> Then again: haven't worked with tables in a while.

nothing wrong with a good ol table when its used appopriately! :)

Re: [WSG] Mystery connection of css and non-liquid design

[Ingo Chao]

Andreas Boehmer [Addictive Media] schrieb:
Something I find really strange is that a lot of people who put emphasis on
Web Standards suddenly found their way back to non-liquid, 800px, centered
design. I am wondering why that is? 
Andreas, there is a long discussion with many comments in some blogs
(I think one of the recent triggers was 
http://adactio.com/journal/display.php/20050415012704.xml)

i.e.
http://www.molly.com/2005/04/16/fixed-versus-liquid-the-beating-goes-on/
and
http://www.ellythompson.co.uk/blog/2005/04/25/fixed-width-layout-the-desire-for-pixel-precision/
notes the same for csszengarden
and
http://www.456bereastreet.com/archive/200504/about_fluid_and_fixed_width_layouts/
(sorry if I may have missed one's blog).
and I found this answer (Fixed or fluid width? Elastic!) here
http://www.456bereastreet.com/archive/200504/fixed_or_fluid_width_elastic/
inspiriting.
Ingo
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RE: [WSG] Mystery connection of css and non-liquid design

[Andreas Boehmer [Addictive Media]]

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Vicki Berry
> Sent: Monday, 2 May 2005 9:05 PM
> To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
> Subject: Re: [WSG] Mystery connection of css and non-liquid design
> 
> I can't speak for anyone else but as displays 
> (monitors/resolution) get 
> larger and larger, liquid designs (IMO) start to look ridiculous.
> 
> Text is easier to read in short stretches than in 
> loong 
> lines across a page. It's an accessibility thing.
> 

I agree with you in certain aspects - yes, text stretched all along the
monitor does look strange. But then again so does a 800px design on a 21"
monitor. And you don't necessarily have to make the text fluid - you could
only make certain aspects of the design fill the entire screen.

I am not so much complaining about the fact that people came back to 800px
wide design as that I find it curious that they all look a bit the same. 

> 
> On 02/05/2005, at 6:56 PM, Andreas Boehmer [Addictive Media] wrote:
> > Something I find really strange is that a lot of people who put 
> > emphasis on
> > Web Standards suddenly found their way back to non-liquid, 800px, 
> > centered
> > design. I am wondering why that is? 
> 
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> 
> 
> 
> 


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Re: [WSG] Jumping text in FF and Netscape

[Cole Kuryakin - x7m]

Bert -

Specifying the height and width of the small images fixed the problem.
Thanks!

Yeah, I know the home page shot is HUGE - Client demanded it after much
effort on my behalf to talk him out of it. Win some, you lose some.

I know I shouldn't spec font sizes in px, but I'm confused about the whole
"em" thing. I need to do some reading about that as I do want my sites as
accessible as possible.

Thanks for the fix on the jumping text.

Cole

- Original Message -
From: "Bert Doorn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Monday, May 02, 2005 1:28 PM
Subject: Re: [WSG] Jumping text in FF and Netscape


> G'day
>
> > I've got this not-so-critical but annoying problem with text below an
> > image. When the page loads, there's too much space (between the bottom
> > of the image and top of the text), but if you refresh the browser, the
> > text snaps back to the correct position.
> > This only happens in FF and Netscape - and only happens on the 2nd and
> > 3rd images.
>
> Doesn't happen to me in Firefox (on Win2K). You might however
> consider putting height and width attributes on your images, or
> specify it in your CSS.  It might help, since the browser will
> then know how much space to reserve for the image.
>
> FWIW, spare a thought for people on dial-up with 800x600 display
> (nothing to see unless they scroll down or wait a minute or more
> for the huge image to load).  Also consider people with MSIE who
> can't read the text and can't enlarge it because you specify the
> font size in px.
>
> Regards
> --
> Bert Doorn, Better Web Design
> http://www.betterwebdesign.com.au/
> Fast-loading, user-friendly websites
>
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Re: [WSG] Mystery connection of css and non-liquid design

[Vicki Berry]

I can't speak for anyone else but as displays (monitors/resolution) get 
larger and larger, liquid designs (IMO) start to look ridiculous.

Text is easier to read in short stretches than in loong 
lines across a page. It's an accessibility thing.

In addition, at least you do know what your page is going to look like 
no matter what the monitor/resolution of the viewing computer.

Vicki.  :-)
On 02/05/2005, at 6:56 PM, Andreas Boehmer [Addictive Media] wrote:
Something I find really strange is that a lot of people who put 
emphasis on
Web Standards suddenly found their way back to non-liquid, 800px, 
centered
design. I am wondering why that is? 
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[WSG] Mystery connection of css and non-liquid design

[Andreas Boehmer [Addictive Media]]

Something I find really strange is that a lot of people who put emphasis on
Web Standards suddenly found their way back to non-liquid, 800px, centered
design. I am wondering why that is? 

The majority of pages that show up in this group for review display some
kind of centered design with 800px (or less) width. Not only that, but a lot
of pages that deal with web standards or CSS do the same:

http://www.alistapart.com/
http://www.css-blog.com/
http://www.webstandardsawards.com/
http://www.csszengarden.com/?cssfile=/164/164.css&page=0
http://www.csszengarden.com/?cssfile=/163/163.css&page=0
http://www.csszengarden.com/?cssfile=/162/162.css&page=0
... (you can go down the entire list of css Zengarden)

Can anybody clear this one up for me? I find this amazing: when I browse the
web and come across one of those pages I don't even have to look at the
code: it's almost 90% certain that the site was done in CSS.



Andreas Boehmer
User Experience Consultant

Phone: (03) 9386 8907
Mobile: (0411) 097 038
http://www.addictiveMedia.com.au
Consulting | Accessibility | Usability | Development


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Re: [WSG] disappearing element in page

[Ingo Chao]

Ingo Chao schrieb:
Carl Reynolds schrieb:
http://hyperbole-software.com/movie-buzz/ 

http://www.satzansatz.de/cssd/tmp/disappearingcontent.html
And I think the problem (the a. p. menu is disappearing in IE6 and IE5.5 
on reload) is triggered when the floated div#center-layout's

margin-left: any value em + width:70% exceeds 100%.

I just noticed that Bruno Fassino already has some more comprehensive 
test cases and solutions here

http://brunildo.org/test/IE_raf3.html
Ingo
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RE: [WSG] Padding tables in IE

[Andreas Boehmer [Addictive Media]]

Gee, that's a new one to me! Is  a HTML 4 tag? I've never come across
it. Then again: haven't worked with tables in a while.

Thanks, I'll give it a try!


From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Peter Ottery
Sent: Monday, 2 May 2005 5:58 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Padding tables in IE


Andreas wrote:
>>> I am having difficulties getting IE to give a table a
padding-left. 
 
I dont think adding padding to the table itself is going to be
reliable - as youve found out :)
I'd say that what you want to do is add padding to the cell/s of the
table.
 
If you want to add padding to one column of the table (in your cae
the left column), apply a style to a col tag [1] like this:

 
.1st-column {padding-left:25px}





 

blah blah blah
blah blah blah
blah blah blah


 
 


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Re: [WSG] disappearing element in page

[Ingo Chao]

Carl Reynolds schrieb:
... if I narrow the IE window enough that a horizontal scroll 
bar appears and refresh, or go to the page for the first time, the menu 
area (on the left) disappears. If I then widen the window far enough for 
the scroll bar to go away, the menu appears and remains visible, even if 
I narrow the window again. The menu will stay visible until I refresh 
the window again with the scroll bar visible.

http://hyperbole-software.com/movie-buzz/ 

The page is composed of a  called #menu that is position: absolute 
( this is the one that vanishes) and a second  called 
#center-layout. #menu contains a  containing links to other pages 
and #center-layout contains several other s used to layout the 
center part of the page.

I had thought this might be a peek-a-boo bug and have applied position: 
relative to #menu and its children and to #center-layout and most of its 
children. That didn't change the behavior at all. 

Carl, I narrowed it down to this test page (assuming your permission):
http://www.satzansatz.de/cssd/tmp/disappearingcontent.html
And I think the problem (the a. p. menu is disappearing in IE6 and IE5.5 
on reload) is triggered when the floated div#center-layout's

margin-left: any value em + width:70% exceeds 100%.
(see section 3; section2 prevents the bug)
Sorry, I have no real explanation for this behavior nor a fix yet.
Given this layout, you could try to hide the width:70% from IE/Win or 
define the margin-left (which may lead to more problems) with percentages.

Maybe someone can open my eyes?
Ingo

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Re: [WSG] Firefox bug?

[Ingo Chao]

Gene Falck schrieb:
... I just checked on the 269840 bug and it sounds as
if it might be related to a nuisance problem I've
been seeing in a huge local app (my work notes)...
My problem isn't lines but rather an occasional
vertical doubling of the background image I am using
for LI bullets. The double images happen in different
places when ever I make a change in my code so I
imagine this is either a triggered or cumulative
effect of some kind.
Hi Gene,
yes, that sounds very reasonable. I do not know this bug you described, 
sorry.

Some of the lines I saw did show up in "older" versions like 1.0. Did 
you try to reproduce the bug with the recent nightlies from 
http://www.mozilla.org/developer/
?
search
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/
for your bug: "list image"
you may find the situation you described, i.e.
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/attachment.cgi?id=103612
shows problems with the png list-style-images in my old Moz1.6, but not 
in my recent nightly.
---

A workaround can only be found when we have a /small/ testcase. Simplify it.
(A "test case" of 200 lines full of mostly irrelevant code that doesn't 
change a bit when deleted plus a lot of java script, as provided 
sometimes, is hard to debug for people like me with limited band-width 
and mind-width who debug in their free time for /fun/ ).

And, as George said, the most common bugs are /human/. Some are 
disappearing in thin air by simplifying, I might add.

Good luck!
Regards, Ingo
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Re: [WSG] Padding tables in IE

[Peter Ottery]

Andreas wrote:>>> I am having difficulties getting IE to give a table a padding-left. 
 
I dont think adding padding to the table itself is going to be reliable - as youve found out :)
I'd say that what you want to do is add padding to the cell/s of the table.
 
If you want to add padding to one column of the table (in your cae the left column), apply a style to a col tag [1] like this:

.1st-column {padding-left:25px}

blah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blah
 
 
[1] more info: http://www.w3schools.com/tags/tag_col.asp
 
hope this is of some help, 
cheers, pete ottery
 
On 5/2/05, Andreas Boehmer [Addictive Media] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I am having difficulties getting IE to give a table a padding-left. I can'tfigure out why this doesn't work, but perhaps somebody else can see my
mistake:http://www.adictivemedia.com.au/clients/gta/home2.htmlYou can see on the "Drafts Table" that the text overlaps the left side of
the background-image. This only seems to happen in IE - Firefox acknowledgesthe padding I gave the table and moves everything 25px inwards:#draft table{padding:0 15px 0 25px;}Any ideas on how this could be fixed?
Thanks heaps!Andreas BoehmerUser Experience ConsultantPhone: (03) 9386 8907Mobile: (0411) 097 038http://www.addictiveMedia.com.auConsulting | Accessibility | Usability | Development
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Re: [WSG] [Possibly OT] Conundrum between attribution VS disclosure for results of work

[Nick Gleitzman]

On 2 May 2005, at 4:41 PM, Neerav wrote:
Since this is Possibly OT
Possibly?!
___
Omnivision. Websight.
http://www.omnivision.com.au/
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