[WSG] 100% width table inside a DIV
Hi, Consider the following example: http://www.streetdaddy.com/temp/index.html http://www.streetdaddy.com/temp/index.css I am developing a site based around this structure, however something in the complicated CSS of my site is causing it to not behave the same as this simple example. The basic problem is that IE5+ is calculating percentage widths based on the viewport rather than its parent element, so the 100% width table goes off screen and the floated inner-columns don't fit next to each other . I have tried and tried to work out why this is happening, to no avail... Can anyone fill me in on the nuances of this annoying problem? Will I need to employ some browser specific hacks? The site im developing is slightly sensitive but if needed I can post up the HTML and CSS for it... Cheers, Miles. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] html design - best practices
You are correct, it hasn't been 'officially' deprecated but as visual tags and not logical ones; CSS offers a better long term solution. http://www.w3.org/TR/2005/WD-xhtml2-20050527/elements.html seems to agree. Regarding books, if you carry extra [per book] information in the context of the book title then a definition list would suit your needs. CITE would certainly play a part within the list. b is not deprecated, it just has no semantic value and in the fight to get people to markup their content semantically instead of visually, b and i became clear targets. Unfortunately, this means that many people think they should use strong and em when they really should use b and i. It's similar to the people who bend over backwards in order to put tabular data in some sort of floating list construct, just because they think that CSS-styled markup should not have the table tag. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] 100% width table inside a DIV [SOLVED]
SOLVED ... I think! After reading some recenet articles at positioniseverything.net I discovered that one method of fixing the IE bug is to use the double-wrapper method: http://www.positioniseverything.net/explorer/percentages.html (down the page) Not elegant, but works for me in IE5+. The root cause is that I'm using a fluid 3 column layout in which the centre div does not have a fixed width. Setting a relative width on the centre div also caused problems. So I have another div around the table so it can use it as the parent element: div style=width:100%; table ... /table /div So I can now have the table width set to 100% in CSS without causing any problems. I assume I could also set the table width inline but since that sucks I haven't bothered to confirm it... If there's a better way to do it I'd love to hear about it, but for now it might just help me meet my deadline! Regards, Miles. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Miles Tillinger Sent: Wednesday, 17 August 2005 3:27 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] 100% width table inside a DIV Hi, Consider the following example: http://www.streetdaddy.com/temp/index.html http://www.streetdaddy.com/temp/index.css I am developing a site based around this structure, however something in the complicated CSS of my site is causing it to not behave the same as this simple example. The basic problem is that IE5+ is calculating percentage widths based on the viewport rather than its parent element, so the 100% width table goes off screen and the floated inner-columns don't fit next to each other . I have tried and tried to work out why this is happening, to no avail... Can anyone fill me in on the nuances of this annoying problem? Will I need to employ some browser specific hacks? The site im developing is slightly sensitive but if needed I can post up the HTML and CSS for it... Cheers, Miles. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] attribute selectors question
Thierry Koblentz wrote: Drake, Ted C. wrote: Hi All I have a quick question. I don't seem to be running on all cylinders and I can't remember how to write the css that would look for a link that has .pdf in the href. A [href???.pdf]... If you use type=application/pdf in your anchor, I think you can go with: A[type=application/pdf] Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com Which is considered much better then looking for file prefix as it don´t have to be 'pdf'. As I say in the thread 'accessibility - opening new windows philosophy' you could have a CGI/PHP/ASP/WHatever script generate PDFs for you. Then the file prefix solution will crack. Of course, this kind of 'advanced' CSS will only work in modern browsers, but that you already know I guess ;-) Regards, /Anders ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Help with navigation
Don't forget to change the spelling of Cross cutltural awareness Craig Rippon Brisbane, Australia -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, 17 August 2005 10:50 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] Help with navigation Hi The subnav in my site: http://learnline.cdu.edu.au/wip/tog/background/introduction.html should look like this: http://learnline.cdu.edu.au/wip/tog/navtest.html. but I cannot get it to work.. :( - and I can't figure out why.. :( Any help is much appreciated. Thanks Helen *** Helen Rysavy Web Designer Teaching Learning Development Group Charles Darwin University, Northern Territory 0909 Tel: 8946 7779 Mobile: 0403 290 842 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] CRICOS Provider No: 00300K *** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Irrelevant properties
Hey mate :) Howdy. While it is valid, applying innapproriate properties to elements is habit worth avoiding :) Eh, yes, this was just a quick example I noticed when gluing together two definitions, so I was just curious - I've never thought about a similar issue. So I've already split that, but I was pretty interested in it - how it would behave, how kosher it is etc. -- Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] html design - best practices
On Aug 16, 2005, at 9:07 PM, Ben Curtis wrote: That's a very curious thing for the W3C to publish. I am not aware of any HTML standard in which b and i are deprecated. Can anyone cite such a declaration? They are included in XHTML 1.1 (Presentation Module) http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-modularization/ abstract_modules.html#s_presentationmodule They were not deprecated in XHTML 1.1: http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml11/changes.html#a_changes As I understand it, nothing was deprecated in XHTML 1.0; in fact, they don't define the term for possible use: http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/#defs HTML 4.01 didn't deprecate anything; it only clarified HTML 4.0. b and i are not deprecated in 4.0: http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/appendix/changes.html#h-A.3.1.2 If the W3C misspoke, or if they are indeed deprecated but not listed as such in the common specs... well, it's no wonder such rumors persist! Please look at the date of each document. The document listing the items as deprecated is the most recent. HTML 4.01 Specification http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/cover.html#minitoc W3C Recommendation 24 December 1999 XHTML(tm) 1.0 The Extensible HyperText Markup Language (Second Edition) A Reformulation of HTML 4 in XML 1.0 http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/#defs W3C Recommendation 26 January 2000, revised 1 August 2002 Modularization of XHTML(tm) W3C Recommendation 10 April 2001 http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-modularization/ XHTML(tm) 1.1 - Module-based XHTML http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml11/Overview.html#toc W3C Recommendation 31 May 2001 HTML Techniques for WCAG 2.0 http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20-HTML-TECHS/ W3C Working Draft 30 June 2005 (includes the information regarding deprecated b and i tags) If the W3C misspoke... Do you really believe that the W3C misspoke because they have a working draft with change/updates to the current HTML/XHTML recommendations? ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] achieve 95% height with empty div?
hello,
I
how can i get this div to scale to 95% of
the window height without filling
it with (invisible) content.
div.logo {
background: url(../LOGO.gif)
bottom right no-repeat;
height:95%; margin: auto 0 0 0;
}
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Re: [WSG] achieve 95% height with empty div?
kvnmcwebn wrote:
hello,
I
how can i get this div to scale to 95% of
the window height without filling
it with (invisible) content.
div.logo {
background: url(../LOGO.gif)
bottom right no-repeat;
height:95%; margin: auto 0 0 0;
}
This doesn't work, because it has no idea what 95% of nothing is.
you need to specify the parent element to be 100%. in this case,
body { height: 100%; }
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RE: [WSG] achieve 95% height with empty div?
wow..i had no idea... I had assumed that any height or width declaration would be 100% of the browser window by default.. thanks, ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Request for comments on a website.
Hi all, I have been a lurker on this list for a short while. I have a request regarding a web site that I have been working on. The site can be found at: http://www.townguidebooks.bkecreative.co.uk/ I am looking for general comments regarding this site, its functionality and usability. If there are any glaring issues that can be seen at a glance,or any comments that arise from a quick look at the site design, I would very much appreciate hearing them. Thanks in advanced to any takers. Regards Stephen Johnson ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Request for comments on a website.
Stephen Francis Johnson wrote:
Hi all, I have been a lurker on this list for a short while. I have a
request regarding a web site that I have been working on. The site can
be found at:
http://www.townguidebooks.bkecreative.co.uk/
Stephen Johnson
Nice job Stephen. Looks and works well in XP_SP2 at 1280 and 800 in
IE/Moz/DeerPark/Opera. The fonts, particularly the navigation, is
smaller than my preference, but otherwise fine-- and the fonts scale
well. Other than that there is no text for the logo, it is okay in IE
accessibility mode. I get short page shift going to and from your home
page, try adding:
html { height: 100%; margin-bottom: 1px;}
Source:
http://www.hicksdesign.co.uk/journal/forcing-scrollbars-now-even-better
Credits to Patrick H. Lauke.
FWIW: There's minor error preventing validation of the css.
Best,
David
.
--
David Laakso
http://www.dlaakso.com/
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Re: [WSG] Need recomendations for CMS system
I'll second the Textpattern reccomendation. It's free, and the learning curve is very reasonable. It's easy for complete beginners to use the system. And it cuts development time by a siginifigant ammount because it uses a logical, non-constraining template system. Matt On 8/16/05, morten fjellman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What kind of scale project are you looking at? Small site, large site, large enterprise...? The system will be used for all kinds of sites, but mostly for small/medium businesses. Most of my clients want to update their site themselves, but I don't want to give them the oppurtunity of messing up my code/mark-up. So first and formost the system need to spit out divs instead of tables, and the text-editor needs to be xhtml-complient. Thanks Fjellman On 8/16/05, heretic [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am looking for a CMS system that will produce code/mark-up that follows web standards. A lot of systems spits out tables and weird tags that doesn't validate. I'm mostly interested in freeware, but if I need to buy one to get such a system then that's fine too. I have been searching the net for awhile, but I'm not sure that I will recognize the best system even if I find it. What kind of scale project are you looking at? Small site, large site, large enterprise...? h -- --- http://www.200ok.com.au/ --- The future has arrived; it's just not --- evenly distributed. - William Gibson ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Request for comments on a website.
Stephen Nice design, and great work. Is the curve at the bottom of the page parallel with the curve on the banner? It looks slightly out to me but it could just be my eyesight! Lol Always pleasing to see good UK design. Well done! Peter -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Stephen Francis Johnson Sent: 17 August 2005 15:32 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] Request for comments on a website. Hi all, I have been a lurker on this list for a short while. I have a request regarding a web site that I have been working on. The site can be found at: http://www.townguidebooks.bkecreative.co.uk/ I am looking for general comments regarding this site, its functionality and usability. If there are any glaring issues that can be seen at a glance,or any comments that arise from a quick look at the site design, I would very much appreciate hearing them. Thanks in advanced to any takers. Regards Stephen Johnson ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.10/73 - Release Date: 8/15/2005 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.10/73 - Release Date: 8/15/2005 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Request for comments on a website.
Stephen Francis Johnson wrote: Hi all, I have been a lurker on this list for a short while. I have a request regarding a web site that I have been working on. The site can be found at: http://www.townguidebooks.bkecreative.co.uk/ The CSS validator returns something: http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/validator?profile=css2warning=2uri=http%3A//www.townguidebooks.bkecreative.co.uk/ You can force the scrollbar on shorter page to avoid a lateral jump. I'd style the links in the menu to match the current page With images disabled I lose your headings... The text looks black, I'd go with a dark blue. Very nice and clean, scales well. Good job. Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Request for comments on a website.
Thierry Koblentz You can force the scrollbar on shorter page to avoid a lateral jump. With something like my pixel pushing technique http://www.splintered.co.uk/experiments/49/ for instance. Patrick __ Patrick H. Lauke Webmaster / University of Salford http://www.salford.ac.uk __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Need recomendations for CMS system
Textpattern gets my vote too - I've found that it is very flexible. We've used it for several sites including www.cope.ltd.uk and www.selfcateringshetland.com. All the sites we've used it for so far have been static, i.e. 'non-blog' - there is no real problem setting this up once you understand how the system works. My only concern with Textpattern is that some of our clients did not find it immediately intuitive to get to grips with. It was important to explain to them about sections/articles and so on so that they can add/edit the correct content. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] html design - best practices
On Aug 17, 2005, at 4:39 AM, Julie Romanowski wrote:
On Aug 16, 2005, at 9:07 PM, Ben Curtis wrote:
That's a very curious thing for the W3C to publish. I am not
aware of any HTML standard in which b and i are deprecated. Can
anyone cite such a declaration?
...
Please look at the date of each document. The document listing the
items
as deprecated is the most recent.
HTML 4.01 Specification http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/
cover.html#minitoc
W3C Recommendation 24 December 1999
XHTML(tm) 1.0 The Extensible HyperText Markup Language (Second
Edition)
A Reformulation of HTML 4 in XML 1.0 http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/#defs
W3C Recommendation 26 January 2000, revised 1 August 2002
Modularization of XHTML(tm)
W3C Recommendation 10 April 2001
http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-modularization/
XHTML(tm) 1.1 - Module-based XHTML
http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml11/Overview.html#toc
W3C Recommendation 31 May 2001
HTML Techniques for WCAG 2.0 http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20-HTML-TECHS/
W3C Working Draft 30 June 2005 (includes the information regarding
deprecated b and i tags)
Looking solely at the dates would lead people to believe that we
should currently be coding to XHTML2 specs, since that was most
recently updated, but that would be wrong. Dates are useful in
finding what spec is the most recent, but a spec is only a standard
once it reaches recommendation status. The HTML Techniques spec you
cite is a Working Draft, and they state in the prologue:
Publication as a Working Draft does not imply endorsement
by the W3C Membership. This is a draft document and may be
updated, replaced or obsoleted by other documents at any
time. It is inappropriate to cite this document as other
than work in progress.
It's not a standard yet. It's important to recognize that standards
that are developed publicly will present a number of documents from
official sources that are not, in themselves, definitive. It's
important to cite the documents that are definitive, and only in the
manner that they claim to be definitive. For example, had the HTML
Techniques been a Recommendation, it would still be inappropriate to
cite this entry as a declaration of the deprecation of the b and i
elements (http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20-HTML-TECHS/#em ). It's
inappropriate because the document is not intended to define the
state of elements, but only the techniques for using them.
If the W3C misspoke... Do you really believe that the W3C misspoke
because they have a working draft with change/updates to the current
HTML/XHTML recommendations?
Nothing can change or update a standard; only a new standard may be
adopted. The portion you quoted stated that b and i as elements were
deprecated in the HTML 4.01 and XHTML Recommendations. I have yet to
find anything that would indicate that this is true. Thus, the W3C
misspoke.
Now, that all said, I think that we're on pretty much the same side
on this issue. Edward also points out:
On Aug 16, 2005, at 11:51 PM, Edward Clarke wrote:
You are correct, it hasn't been 'officially' deprecated but as
visual tags
and not logical ones; CSS offers a better long term solution.
When there are only semantically inappropriate tags to use (e.g., the
a tag as the original poster had implemented), then I opt for
semantically empty tags, with a class applied, and the class is
styled. Some opt for the semantically empty span tag; I opt for the
semantically empty b tag. In both cases, they must be styled to suit:
b.bookTitle { font-weight:bold; }
If you treat the b or i tag (or any other valid markup) as
semantically empty, then treat it in your CSS as having no default
style. The only advantage is backwards compatibility with non-CSS
browsers. As a long term solution, one must keep in mind that the
declared doctype is just as much a part of the document as the other
tags in it. Therefore, if I were to convert the doctype to, say,
XHTML 2, then it would be just as easy to use XSLT to convert span
class=bookTitle to something appropriate as to convert b
class=bookTitle to the same thing. If your doctype states XHTML
1.0 Strict, then that's the standard it needs to conform to.
--
Ben Curtis : webwright
bivia : a personal web studio
http://www.bivia.com
v: (818) 507-6613
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Re: [WSG] Win IE hacks -- Please help!
On Aug 16, 2005, at 9:45 PM, Janelle Clemens wrote:
Thanks Ben. Unfortunately it is not for tabular data but page
layout. But
let me clarify that. The main template (topnav, sidenav, footer)
is in a
tabless format and validated. The content area will have a 2 row,
3 column
layout. Each cell will contain content, like highlights or list of
products, but not relate to eachother in a tabular fashion.
However each
cell has a bottom border that need to match up so if one cell
expands in
height I need the rest to expand at the same rate. Only a table
can give
this or display: table-cell.
I think your previous training with tables has taught you to look at
things on a page, instead of things being properties of the content.
For example:
- you see that the bottom borders of two cells in one row need to
line up on the page
- I see that there are two equally important content areas which are
themselves related; I need to illustrate these relationships by
placing the content areas side by side, and making them visually take
up the same space as each other.
Coding XHTML+CSS is much easier when you look at the semantics first.
They share a bottom border. Why? What does this mean? It means they
are a group.
style type=text/css
div.blockContent {
float:left;
width:100%;
border-bottom:2px solid #000;
}
div.blockContent div {
float:left;
width:50%;
}
/style
div id=primaryContent class=blockContent
divblah blah blah/div
divblah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah
blah/div
/div!-- /primaryContent --
div id=secondaryContent class=blockContent
divblah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah
blah/div
divblah blah blah/div
/div!-- /secondaryContent --
Notice: the borders matching up on the page indicate that the cells
are related, and since the border is the relationship, the border
property gets assigned to the element that relates them -- the parent
div.
(The float:left; on the parent div is just so that it stretches to
enclose all of the floating children. Since the width is 100%, it has
no other effect.)
--
Ben Curtis : webwright
bivia : a personal web studio
http://www.bivia.com
v: (818) 507-6613
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Re: [WSG] attribute selectors question
Thierry Koblentz wrote: If you use type=application/pdf in your anchor, I think you can go with: A[type=application/pdf] Spookily enough, I also did something like this as an experiment back in June last year... http://www.splintered.co.uk/experiments/38/ Ok, I'll stop pimping my warez for today I think ;) -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] html design - best practices
I see your point about backward compatibility but B and I aren't
technically, semantically empty. (If that makes sense).
span style=font-weight: normal;Harry Potter/span
makes sense...
b style=font-weight: normal;Harry Potter/b
does not.
B and I being visual tags should be removed from the markup and styled via
SPAN or inherited from its parent element, the styled using CSS. It's a
fundamental aspect of removing presentation from content; something I
believe should fail (but doesn't) the validator on any STRICT DTD check.
Now, that all said, I think that we're on pretty much the same side
on this issue. Edward also points out:
On Aug 16, 2005, at 11:51 PM, Edward Clarke wrote:
You are correct, it hasn't been 'officially' deprecated but as
visual tags
and not logical ones; CSS offers a better long term solution.
When there are only semantically inappropriate tags to use (e.g., the
a tag as the original poster had implemented), then I opt for
semantically empty tags, with a class applied, and the class is
styled. Some opt for the semantically empty span tag; I opt for the
semantically empty b tag. In both cases, they must be styled to suit:
b.bookTitle { font-weight:bold; }
If you treat the b or i tag (or any other valid markup) as
semantically empty, then treat it in your CSS as having no default
style. The only advantage is backwards compatibility with non-CSS
browsers. As a long term solution, one must keep in mind that the
declared doctype is just as much a part of the document as the other
tags in it. Therefore, if I were to convert the doctype to, say,
XHTML 2, then it would be just as easy to use XSLT to convert span
class=bookTitle to something appropriate as to convert b
class=bookTitle to the same thing. If your doctype states XHTML
1.0 Strict, then that's the standard it needs to conform to.
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Re: [WSG] Need recomendations for CMS system
I surf with ignore font sizes on with IE and the TextPattern home page does not play well in that circumstance. Interior pages seem to be OK. I'd be interested in knowing if it always makes the homepage fixed font-size or relative font-size. Steven C. Perkins At 11:13 AM 8/17/2005, you wrote: Textpattern gets my vote too - I've found that it is very flexible. We've used it for several sites including www.cope.ltd.uk and www.selfcateringshetland.com. All the sites we've used it for so far have been static, i.e. 'non-blog' - there is no real problem setting this up once you understand how the system works. My only concern with Textpattern is that some of our clients did not find it immediately intuitive to get to grips with. It was important to explain to them about sections/articles and so on so that they can add/edit the correct content. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** I see the Earth. It is so beautiful. [Yuri Alekseevich Gagarin, from the Vostok 1, April 12, 1961.] ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Site check (eCommerce)
http://63.135.116.208 Hi all, I have a few questions: - Is a DL the right markup for the FAQ and Directions pages? - On many pages (Home, CheckOut, FAQ, Directions), I'm using the same link text to refer to different resources (13.1 Clearly identify the target of each link). Should I be really concerned by that or is it OK because these do not really link to anything specific (skip table link for example). - I'm not using tabindex attributes; do I have to or is it OK as long as the user can move in sequence between links/fields? Anything else I should worry about? I'm aiming for WAI level 3... BTW, I'm aware that the PDF file is corrupted Thanks, Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] achieve 95% height with empty div in fire fox
This doesn't work, because it has no idea what 95% of nothing is.
you need to specify the parent element to be 100%. in this case,
body { height: 100%; }
This does the trick nicely in ie but firefox seems oblivious to the
height declaration in the body rule. Is there something else i can do
for ff?
thanks
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
I
how can i get this div to scale to 95% of
the window height without filling
it with (invisible) content.
div.logo {
background: url(../LOGO.gif)
bottom right no-repeat;
height:95%; margin: auto 0 0 0;
}
This doesn't work, because it has no idea what 95% of nothing is.
you need to specify the parent element to be 100%. in this case,
body { height: 100%; }
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[WSG] iframes
Hi, What is the consensus of iframes? I've heard they've been deprecated, could some point me to articles on their impact on accessibility? C ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Site check (eCommerce)
Thierry Koblentz wrote: - Is a DL the right markup for the FAQ and Directions pages? I think a definition list is the most semantically correct markup for an FAQ. If you look at the w3 documention on lists it says that DLs ...consist of two parts: a term and a description which is pretty close to the structure of an FAQ/FQA. The definition term is posed as a question, e.g. What sets the Gold Membership apart from silver or bronze? and the definition description would answer that, further defining the term. Maybe that's a stretch but I think it's the best fit we've got within our toolset. I'm not sure a definition list is the best choice for directions because they have an order by necessity. So I would consider an ordered list, beaten into submission with style. Normally. BUT the way you are delivering directions on this site eliminates confusion as to ordering since you used a narrative style. I'm not sure it's any *less* correct than the use of a DL for the FAQ. After all, you are defining the term store location from 280 and answering with a definition of place. (It's not that disimilar from a legal description of land in the U.S., for example Southwest Quarter of the Southwest Quarter of Section 18, Township 27, Range 16 except a tract out of the Northwest corner thereof, described to-wit...). That's *defining* but also directional. Seems like your directions are too. Jona ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] achieve 95% height with empty div in fire fox
I think html, body {height:100;} could help.
Oh my god!
My first mail at this list and my first mistake.
I'm sorry, I wanted to write
html, body {height:100%;}
g
fricca
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RE: [WSG] achieve 95% height with empty div in fire fox
I think html, body {height:100;} could help.
Thanks fricca, but no joy.
-Kevin
body { height: 100%; }
This does the trick nicely in ie but firefox seems oblivious to the
height declaration in the body rule. Is there something else i can do
for ff?
Hello,
I think html, body {height:100;} could help.
greets
fricca
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RE: [WSG] achieve 95% height with empty div in fire fox
doh! sorry i should have realized that wasnt intentional.
that did the trick.-thanks a mill
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of FriccaWagner
Sent: 17 August 2005 20:18
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] achieve 95% height with empty div in fire fox
I think html, body {height:100;} could help.
Oh my god!
My first mail at this list and my first mistake.
I'm sorry, I wanted to write
html, body {height:100%;}
g
fricca
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Re: [WSG] html design - best practices
On Aug 17, 2005, at 10:02 AM, Edward Clarke wrote: I see your point about backward compatibility but B and I aren't technically, semantically empty. (If that makes sense). span style=font-weight: normal;Harry Potter/span makes sense... b style=font-weight: normal;Harry Potter/b does not. Both of your examples make the same amount of sense, semantically. Bold text does not mean anything different than non-bold text, and therefore boldness has no semantic meaning. Consider the semantics of these (fictional) tags: compassNorth/compass surnameNorth/surname dictionary-entryNorth/dictionary-entry Those are three different meanings that North can have. In your example, the span'd Harry Potter is the same as the b'd Harry Potter, and that would be true regardless of what content you wanted to span or b. That's why I say b is semantically empty. What you are saying though, is that it doesn't make sense to declare that the b tag not render as bold. To which I reply, in a CSS browser, none of the presentation properties should be derived from the tag, and all should be derived from the CSS. Why single out a specific, meaningless tag? All presentation must be in the CSS, regardless of the tag. B and I being visual tags should be removed from the markup and styled via SPAN or inherited from its parent element, the styled using CSS. img is also a visual tag. This is likely the reason that img was going to be removed (like b and i) in XHTML2, until a developer outcry insisted it remain for backwards compatibility (nonsense, I say -- if you're moving to XHTML2, the img tag is the easiest thing to transform). I wholeheartedly agree with removing presentation from the markup. This is why in my original post I stated that using b gains you backwards compatibility, but you *must* style it appropriately, as if it were a span; otherwise, you fail to separate. Allow me to reiterate: - b and i are not deprecated (i.e., valid but marked for future removal) - they are semantically empty, and must be thoroughly styled - they achieve a semblance of backwards compatibility Some point out that b and i are deprecated because they are not in XHTML2. This argument is soft at best; for example, the very document pointing out that b and i are deprecated requires a use of the label element that is incompatible with XHTML2. http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20-HTML-TECHS/#label http://www.w3.org/TR/2005/WD-xhtml2-20050527/mod- list.html#edef_list_label Those trying to code their XHTML1.0 Strict to be forward-compatible with XHTML2 have their work cut out for them. It's a fundamental aspect of removing presentation from content; something I believe should fail (but doesn't) the validator on any STRICT DTD check. Don't confuse valid with preferred technique. The Strict DTD is a different DTD than the Transitional or Frameset DTDs, and it is not better or worse, nor are the other DTDs less strict (as in rigidly applied), they just include more options. What you are proposing is that the Strict DTD should not include b and i; it's a valid argument, but it does not reflect the approved Recommendation of the W3C. -- Ben Curtis : webwright bivia : a personal web studio http://www.bivia.com v: (818) 507-6613 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] iframes
Chris,
I can't speak to iframes because I use the CSS overflow style, which provides
the same basic
functionality, but requires using absolute positioning, and the height should
be insufficient to
contain the text, which will automatically generate a scroll bar:
#news
{position: absolute;
top: 65%;
left: 65%;
height: 185px;
width: 155px;
overflow: auto;
text-align: left;
border: 2px inset #fff;
padding: 0 5px;
background-color: #dd;}
Respectfully submitted,
Mario S. Cisneros
Hi,
What is the consensus of iframes? I've heard they've been deprecated, could
some point me to
articles on their impact on accessibility?
C
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Re: [WSG] iframes
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I can't speak to iframes because I use the CSS overflow style, which provides the same basic functionality, but requires using absolute positioning, For the record, the div + css overflow does NOT have to be absolute position. It can be block, or relative, or asbolute, or heck- i bet inline would work too (perhaps not semantically, but overflow/scorll bars should still come out) ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] iframes
If you're using the iFrame to pull an external site into a box in your own site, I've been using object for that. But I'm not sure on the cross-browser status on that.
RE: [WSG] Win IE hacks -- Please help!
Hi Ben. I tried your code but it is not giving what I need. It's a design
thing. Not my design as we have designers that are designing the
templates. My job is to make the html look like their comps. Here are
the examples:
http://www.sgi.com/tempie.html
The first is your code. The second is divs using float left. The third is
display: table-cell; (the third looks perfect in Firefox).
I need the borders of all 3 cells to match up. Like I said it is a design
thing. So far my best solution is a simple table giving each cell the
background image that creates the border.
Do you know if IE7 will acknowledge the display value table-cell?
Thanks for your help by the way.
:-)
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Ben Curtis
Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2005 9:50 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Win IE hacks -- Please help!
On Aug 16, 2005, at 9:45 PM, Janelle Clemens wrote:
Thanks Ben. Unfortunately it is not for tabular data but page
layout. But
let me clarify that. The main template (topnav, sidenav, footer) is
in a tabless format and validated. The content area will have a 2
row,
3 column
layout. Each cell will contain content, like highlights or list of
products, but not relate to eachother in a tabular fashion.
However each
cell has a bottom border that need to match up so if one cell expands
in
height I need the rest to expand at the same rate. Only a table
can give
this or display: table-cell.
I think your previous training with tables has taught you to look at things
on a page, instead of things being properties of the content.
For example:
- you see that the bottom borders of two cells in one row need to line up on
the page
- I see that there are two equally important content areas which are
themselves related; I need to illustrate these relationships by placing the
content areas side by side, and making them visually take up the same space
as each other.
Coding XHTML+CSS is much easier when you look at the semantics first.
They share a bottom border. Why? What does this mean? It means they are a
group.
style type=text/css
div.blockContent {
float:left;
width:100%;
border-bottom:2px solid #000;
}
div.blockContent div {
float:left;
width:50%;
}
/style
div id=primaryContent class=blockContent
divblah blah blah/div
divblah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah/div
/div!-- /primaryContent --
div id=secondaryContent class=blockContent
divblah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah/div
divblah blah blah/div
/div!-- /secondaryContent --
Notice: the borders matching up on the page indicate that the cells
are related, and since the border is the relationship, the border property
gets assigned to the element that relates them -- the parent div.
(The float:left; on the parent div is just so that it stretches to enclose
all of the floating children. Since the width is 100%, it has no other
effect.)
--
Ben Curtis : webwright
bivia : a personal web studio
http://www.bivia.com
v: (818) 507-6613
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RE: [WSG] iframes
I used a 3 iframe layout on a site which i did before i was aware of web standards. There was a problem with a scoll bar showing up where it wasnt supposed to in ie but otherthan that it worked all right. I havnt used them since then. here is the url. www.strykelacrosse.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Brian Cummiskey Sent: 17 August 2005 21:53 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] iframes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I can't speak to iframes because I use the CSS overflow style, which provides the same basic functionality, but requires using absolute positioning, For the record, the div + css overflow does NOT have to be absolute position. It can be block, or relative, or asbolute, or heck- i bet inline would work too (perhaps not semantically, but overflow/scorll bars should still come out) ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Need recomendations for CMS system
Based on your requirements, I'd say your choices are Textpattern or Wordpress. I built my site on wordpress(http://www.agavegroup.com) and after that experience (and installing both wordpress and textpattern) I'd say Wordpress is easier to use, and is a great choice for small to medium sites. Anything bigger I think I'd choose Textpattern. While not quite as straight forward (in my opinion) it seems to extend into the CMS world a little better. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Need recomendations for CMS system
Is anyone else having trouble downloading the Textpattern file? I keep getting a server error msg. 412=precondition failed. aborting I'd say your choices are Textpattern or Wordpress. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Semantic Calendar
G'day all I have been tinkering with a calendar generation script (PHP if relevant), and have developed two versions. One uses a semantically correct table for layout, the other uses ordered lists to hold and layout the day names and month dates. After working on this for a while and thinking about it for wa too long I am faced with the quandary - which of the two versions is _more_ semantically correct? Does a calendar (single month) qualify as tabular data, are ordered lists a better fit, or should I be looking at another option? Any feedback/opinions would be appreciated. Regards Scott Swabey Lafinboy Productions www.lafinboy.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Need recomendations for CMS system
I'd recommend Textpattern for sites where clients might need to blog in more than just the homepage. WordPress can only do this with hacks. Running Textpattern: http://kriskhaira.com, http://www.hicksdesign.co.uk, http://nathanpitman.com/, http://particletree.com/, http://tedkennedy.com, http://www.jaredigital.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Safari 1.3 vs Safari 2 differences
Oh no. Not another browser difference to account for. When does it ever end? :) (Please excuse me if this has been discussed before and I missed it.) Has anyone else been noticing differences on sites rendering differently in Safari 1.3 vs Safari 2? I sure have in the 2 latest sites I've been involved in. Anyone know a good resource to read or what exactly is different? Just wondering. Thanks for your time. Shane Helm www.sonze.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Semantic Calendar
Both are equally semantic depending on how it's used. If it's a list of dates, use dates. If it's a table of dates that displays dates against days (Sun, Mon, Tues... Sat), then use a table. If you're always lost about how to display something in the most semantic manner, try viewing it without styles. It it makes sense without styles, you're good to go. -- Kris Khaira http://kriskhaira.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Need recomendations for CMS system
I thought this thread was CLOSED? Regards -- Bert Doorn, Better Web Design http://www.betterwebdesign.com.au/ Fast-loading, user-friendly websites ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Semantic Calendar
Hi, Check out the hcalendar microformat http://microformats.org/wiki/hcalendar It's based on the widely used iCalender format from the IEEE. Two of the founders of Microformats, Tantek Celik and Eric Meyer are speaking at Web Essentials in Sydney at the end of September. http://we05.com Tantek in particular will be looking a the issues of semantics in detail john On 18/08/2005, at 1:20 PM, Scott Swabey ((Lafinboy Productions)) wrote: G'day all I have been tinkering with a calendar generation script (PHP if relevant), and have developed two versions. One uses a semantically correct table for layout, the other uses ordered lists to hold and layout the day names and month dates. After working on this for a while and thinking about it for wa too long I am faced with the quandary - which of the two versions is _more_ semantically correct? Does a calendar (single month) qualify as tabular data, are ordered lists a better fit, or should I be looking at another option? Any feedback/opinions would be appreciated. Regards Scott Swabey Lafinboy Productions www.lafinboy.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** John Allsopp style master :: css editor :: http://westciv.com/style_master support forum :: http://support.westciv.com blog :: dog or higher :: http://blogs.westciv.com/dog_or_higher Web Essentials web development conference http://we05.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Safari 1.3 vs Safari 2 differences
From: Shane Helm [EMAIL PROTECTED] Oh no. Not another browser difference to account for. When does it ever end? :) (Please excuse me if this has been discussed before and I missed it.) Has anyone else been noticing differences on sites rendering differently in Safari 1.3 vs Safari 2? I sure have in the 2 latest sites I've been involved in. Anyone know a good resource to read or what exactly is different? Just wondering. Thanks for your time. I would be interested in seeing a resource, but I wouldn't hold my breath. Safari seems to be slightly different as tied to different OS versions. That is, we've seen anomalies on Panther versions that are not apparent on Jaguar. Tiger bug fixes that are still broken on Panther and Jaguar and just about all scenarios in between. The good news is that much of it seems to involve rendering shortcuts introduced that affect active content, Javascript/DOM stuff or Flash Player stuff. On a completely static page, there are not terribly debilitating problems. But do post with resources, Surfin Safari seems to be a bit evasive - although they did quickly fix a bug that was affecting alistapart.com :-) I've got a test page in to their bugbase and Macromedia recently filed one at my behest involving wmode in the Flash Player. Al Sparber PVII http://www.projectseven.com Designing with CSS is sometimes like barreling down a crumbling mountain road at 90 miles per hour secure in the knowledge that repairs are scheduled for next Tuesday. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
