RE: [WSG] Certified Usable
Firstly, to everyone that's taken the time to add a comment to the thread - thank you - it seems we've created a bit of a stir. I'm the managing director of PTG Global, and developed the product. You can see my bio here http://www.ptg-global.com/about-ptg/the-board/craig-errey/craig-errey_home.cfm http://www.ptg-global.com/about-ptg/the-board/craig-errey/craig-errey_home.cfm I'd like to address some of the concerns raised in the thread because I don't want people to get the wrong idea about what we're doing, or thinking that it's like the '100% Australian Beef' thing. The post is a bit long in order to address the issues, so please bear with me. Certified Usable is backed by our Professional Indemnity insurance and as such is a specifically name service on our policy. For an industry that is generally risk averse, they have audited what and how we're doing it and are comfortable to include it, with no effect on our premium. Regarding the statement that essentially goes: '90% success, within x minutes +/- 10%', we must use ranges like this because we cannot guarantee 100% usability. Because we use strong statistical methods in the process, we must use confidence intervals and make our statements framed with such statistical rigour and various caveats. This is what gives our insurer confidence that we are not doing things that cannot be done, and that would expose them to risk. The process is being run by Psychologists (Registered in NSW) who have an extensive understanding of testing design, rigour and statistical analysis to ensure the process is run correctly and defensibly. In fact, the ethics that psychologists must abide by regarding testing procedures means that we are fully accountable for what we do by the NSW State Government (specifically Department of Health). There is no pseudo-science here, and no illusion of competency. These staff have at least a Masters degree in Psychology and 5 - 10 years experience in usability. Regarding what we're defining as usable, it is entirely task driven. It is strictly not designed for simple sites or marketing sites, but can be used for them. Rather it is geared at complex transaction sites and rich applications like internet banking, online travel booking, ERP and CRM systems. In these sites, success rates and time taken (the two primary measures) are easily measured. Regarding setting the standard and testing for it, because the process is task driven, and relies on user testing, the evidence for task success or failure, or time taken is observable and can be independently verified. It's a bit like Standards Australia providing consulting on ISO 9000 and then auditing you for compliance. Although they did not necessarily set the original standard, there is independent proof of whether a company complies or not and it is not their opinion, even though they may have set up the ISO process in the organisation. Pass or fail is independently verifiable and another testing group would come to the same conclusion. In the case of Certified Usable, we set a tough benchmark, usually at a minimum 90% success. We do not use an easy target, such as 50% success rate. There would be no point as real world performance would not match the claim of Certified Usable. There is no conflict of interest because the measurement of achieving the set standard is transparent. It is not our opinion because it is based on observable behaviour - someone's success is usually binary, and the time take is finite. As psychologists, we are good at observing and documenting behaviour and doing it in a way that is accurate and repeatable. Finally, our position as a company is that if we keep doing what everyone is doing, and maintain the status quo, then the industry will not advance. We're making efforts towards standards in usability and this is one of the means of doing so. I'd be happy to speak to anyone in detail about what we're doing, if you'd like to give me a call. My main phone is +61 2 9251 4200, or email is [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Thanks Craig winmail.dat
Re: [WSG] Certified Usable
Valid Code may not necessarily equal a usable system. According to the ISO usablity is: The extent to which a product can be used by specified users to achieve specified goals with effectiveness, efficiency and satisfaction in a specified context of use. Everybody's favourite Jakob Nielson defines usability as: Usability is defined by five quality components: * Learnability: How easy is it for users to accomplish basic tasks the first time they encounter the design? * Efficiency: Once users have learned the design, how quickly can they perform tasks? * Memorability: When users return to the design after a period of not using it, how easily can they reestablish proficiency? * Errors: How many errors do users make, how severe are these errors, and how easily can they recover from the errors? * Satisfaction: How pleasant is it to use the design? Having valid HTML, CSS may improve the efficiency of a web system but it does not improve it's usability. Jon On 3/20/06, Mark Stanton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Disclaimer: my company Gruden, is partnered with PTG. We've enjoyed working with them for a number of years and I think the results have been good. Anyway enough of that rubbish. I don't really know much about Certified Usable so I won't way into that debate - maybe someone from PTG could jump on and answer any questions about that. I do however know about their site as I was involved in putting it together. Robbie: Yes the drop down level nav requires Javascript, however you can access every page on the site without Javascript. Click a top level item in the header and you get the sub items down the left. Steve: Link is fixed. Kay Steve: Yup guilty on the validation stuff. However I am going to blame the CMS. The site is currently running Shado 6 which has some glitches such as: - limited access to the head section (hence link in the body bodgy XHTML on some meta elements), - the insertion of proprietary elements (shadodms) and - issues with the WYSIWYG editor (brs, image attributes, etc..). We've been pestering Straker (the makers of Shado) about this for years and to their credit they have listened - there is a more recent version of Shado (version 7) which fixes these issues. We are planning on upgrading the PTG site to this version some time in the next 3 to 6 months. Disclaimer 2: Gruden are also Shado partners. On 3/20/06, Kay Smoljak [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 3/20/06, Steve Olive [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Their page is generated from the Shado CMS built by Straker Interactive Ltd so I assume getting real WAI validation would be nearly impossible for their own web site. Just a quick note: I've played a little with Shado CMS and I'm fairly certain that it allows you to create your templates however you wish - I'd be willing to bet that this is one case where the problems *cannot* be blamed on the CMS. -- Kay Smoljak http://kay.zombiecoder.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** -- Mark Stanton Gruden Pty Ltd http://www.gruden.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Certified Usable
Craig Errey wrote: Certified Usable is backed by our Professional Indemnity insurance and as such is a specifically name service on our policy. For an industry that is generally risk averse, they have audited what and how we're doing it and are comfortable to include it, with no effect on our premium. So is it a way for the corporate bean counters to feel secure with the product, in that light ? Regarding the statement that essentially goes: '90% success, within x minutes +/- 10%', we must use ranges like this because we cannot guarantee 100% usability. Because we use strong statistical methods in the process, we must use confidence intervals and make our statements framed with such statistical rigour and various caveats. This is what gives our insurer confidence that we are not doing things that cannot be done, and that would expose them to risk. The process is being run by Psychologists (Registered in NSW) who have an extensive understanding of testing design, rigour and statistical analysis to ensure the process is run correctly and defensibly. In fact, the ethics that psychologists must abide by regarding testing procedures means that we are fully accountable for what we do by the NSW State Government (specifically Department of Health). There is no pseudo-science here, and no illusion of competency. These staff have at least a Masters degree in Psychology and 5 - 10 years experience in usability. Usability ? As in human cognitive development or HCI or both ? Which ? Regarding what we're defining as usable, it is entirely task driven. It is strictly not designed for simple sites or marketing sites, but can be used for them. Rather it is geared at complex transaction sites and rich applications like internet banking, online travel booking, ERP and CRM systems. In these sites, success rates and time taken (the two primary measures) are easily measured. So if the task is quick and achieves a success, even if the work flow doesn't make intuitive sense, it's Certified Usable ? (This is related to the perils of some CMS solutions I've had the pleasure of working with. What may be usable to a software engineer may not be usable elsewhere. Go read Jeffrey Veen at length on this..) Regarding setting the standard and testing for it, because the process is task driven, and relies on user testing, the evidence for task success or failure, or time taken is observable and can be independently verified. It's a bit like Standards Australia providing consulting on ISO 9000 and then auditing you for compliance. Although they did not necessarily set the original standard, there is independent proof of whether a company complies or not and it is not their opinion, even though they may have set up the ISO process in the organisation. Pass or fail is independently verifiable and another testing group would come to the same conclusion. Task driven solutions sometimes do not make intuitive sense, no matter how fast they are. Which gets into the whole field of self-fulfilling prophecy in that the product works efficiently because it does. In the case of Certified Usable, we set a tough benchmark, usually at a minimum 90% success. We do not use an easy target, such as 50% success rate. There would be no point as real world performance would not match the claim of Certified Usable. Yet from what it looks like at first glance, CU is simply a way for the corporate bean counters to feel secure about a product so that they/you have a potential inside run against the multitude of CMS solutions out there. There is no conflict of interest because the measurement of achieving the set standard is transparent. It is not our opinion because it is based on observable behaviour - someone's success is usually binary, and the time take is finite. As psychologists, we are good at observing and documenting behaviour and doing it in a way that is accurate and repeatable. So where's the associated peer reviewed psychological studies of such things ? Transparency should mean that others who likewise have studied human cognitive behaviour within the workplace can test whether your tools actually do the job. (And yes, I'd be one of them : that is my only caveat within this discussion, acknowledging the potential for conflict of interest) What may be usable to a deaf user may not be usable to a blind user or vice versa, to paraphrase of the team leaders I've been working with in terms of accessible CMS solutions in the last few years. lawrence -- Lawrence Meckan Absalom Media Mob: (04) 1047 9633 ABN: 49 286 495 792 http://www.absalom.biz ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] WSG Resources broken
Russ, I was getting continued CFML errors when trying to access the Resources subpages of the WSG today (main Resources page fine, any subpage spat errors). Any gremlins in the system you haven't exorcised yet ? Thanks Lawrence -- Lawrence Meckan Absalom Media Mob: (04) 1047 9633 ABN: 49 286 495 792 http://www.absalom.biz ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Certified Usable
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Craig Errey Sent: Monday, 20 March 2006 7:32 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] Certified Usable Firstly, to everyone that's taken the time to add a comment to the thread - thank you - it seems we've created a bit of a stir. Regarding what we're defining as usable, it is entirely task driven. It is strictly not designed for simple sites or marketing sites, but can be used for them. Rather it is geared at complex transaction sites and rich applications like internet banking, online travel booking, ERP and CRM systems. In these sites, success rates and time taken (the two primary measures) are easily measured. Hi Craig, Thanks for replying to this post. By saying PTG can certify the usability of websites you are claiming that your team can pinpoint the moment at which the majority of tasks on a specific website can be completed in a reasonable timeframe by a set number of users. So we are dealing with three factors here: 1. Success Rate 2. Time taken 3. Number of Users There are numbers behind each of these three factors. I would like to know who has made the decision on what these numbers are? I presume when you and your team sit down and analyse the usability of a website, you have got a set formula, an expectation on what the success rate should be, what the duration of task completion should be and what percentage of users should fulfil tasks in the set time with the set success rate. Once all of these factors have been fulfilled, you certify the website as usable. Now what happens if the users have got different expectations to what your team thinks is right or wrong? What if your team decides a task should be completed in 5 minutes, yet a user is sick of it after 4 minutes and 30 seconds already? Maybe that user should trudge on for another 30 seconds until he/she completes the task successfully, seeing that there is an icon on the website certifying it as usable? The notion of certifying usability is something very dangerous, I believe. You give your customers the feeling that their website does not need further improvement. In particular government bodies have probably waited for the moment in which a company can certify that their websites are usable. Once they get your blessing they can lean back and don't have to worry about anything anymore. PTG told us our website is usable, so there you go. If a user calls them and tells them he cannot find information on their website, they will just tell them: Don't complain. This website is proven to be usable. You must be not normal. If you certify a website as usable, what this also means is that you would have to conduct regular audits to ensure the website still complies with all your set standards. I am sorry, but I don't agree with this whole idea. Usability as it is understood in Web Standards cannot be certified by anybody as it is a subjective judgement, based on prior experiences, expectations and emotions by the individual user. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Certified Usable
Ah, usability - it's all good fun till someone gets sued. While I'm sure that Craig and his team are operating with the best of intentions, I agree with Andreas that different users will do things in different ways. I know I would not dare to put out a site with a Certified Usable branding, regardless of how usable I thought it was. Someone is sure to disagree with me. Is PTG indemnifying clients against litigation when more than 10% of users find the site unusable? If not, what value does the certification have for the client? How do you guarantee a site remains usable after the certification is awarded? I don't know about Aus. or the rest of the world but, in New Zealand, if you hold that a product or service has a particular characteristic, you run afoul of consumer protection legislation if it does not for a significant number of consumers. Interesting that someone is trying this - let's see how long it lasts. cheers mark ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Testing multiple Flash Player versions...
Hi all Just wondering if anyone has a clever way of testing multiple Flash players on a single machine? Preferably without having to uninstall. If not, does anyone know of a good place to download earlier versions? Cheers, Paul
Re: [WSG] Odd FireFox div background image behavior
Whenever you float elements inside another element, the element
contaning the floats needs to have an overlow defined and a width, the
width should not be 100% or IE will still not expand the container.
This is what the spec says in an obscure part; and an obscure manner.
Example:
#containerDiv {overflow:hidden;width:770px;}
This, IMHO, is better, and more correct, than the display:table
solution (besides if I'm not sure all browsers will support
display:table). But sometimes setting widths and/or overflows it is
not an option. Another option is to float the container, and another
one (the worst option if there was no element already on the code) is
to have another element after the floated ones set to clear:both.
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Re: [WSG] Testing multiple Flash Player versions...
Hi Paul try http://isohunt.com/ i don't know if they have this but it's working forstudies... cheers - Original Message - From: Paul Collins To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Monday, March 20, 2006 4:35 PM Subject: [WSG] Testing multiple Flash Player versions... Hi all Just wondering if anyone has a clever way of testing multiple Flash players on a single machine? Preferably without having to uninstall. If not, does anyone know of a good place to download earlier versions? Cheers, Paul __ Email disclaimer and confidentiality note Please refer to : http://www.inxcom.com/email.html for Inxcom's email disclaimer and usage policy.
[WSG] Re: Website Directory Structure - Best Practice
I believe best practices are to have all images in a directory entitled images, all css, in a folder entitled css etc etc,However, there are exceptions. I work for a college and have 200 images of headshots of faculty and put in an a separate directory for management purposes.You need to look at how the site is used and managed. Best Practices, isn't always 100% appropriate.Nancy Johnsonwsg@webstandardsgroup.org wrote: WEB STANDARDS GROUP MAIL LIST DIGESTIf you have suddenly been thrown into digest mode and don't know why, it's because your address was bouncing for at least 5 posts.To
revert to a standard subscription, please log into the website - http://webstandardsgroup.org/manage/ - and select "Edit your login details and mail list subscriptions" from the members home page and change the selection to"Full WSG list". You can change your subscription at any time and you can now select a different email address for WSG and WSGCMS list posts. You can also suspend email from these lists.To unsubscribe entirely and leave the group, please log into the website and select Unsubscribe from the members home page. You can reach Russ and Peter the list managers at [EMAIL PROTECTED]When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "WSG Digest"There are some problems with the Digest version. Our apologies for this. It is the way that SmarterMail handles it so that HTML email and attachments are not put into the digest as source code. We are STILL talking with the software developers about
this.From: "Patrick H. Lauke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2006 13:14:50 +Subject: Re: [WSG] tabindexDesigner wrote: In an endeavor to 'be good', I've been putting tabindex on links just lately. Certainly the WAI validator gives me a warning if I don't.Aeh...which validator would that be? It sound more to me like your validator is lying. However, it looks to me as though 'modern' browsers tab through the links even without the tabindexTabbing through links has been a built-in browser functionality for quite some time. IE4, Netscape 4, etc all support tabbing. As it happens, the default taborder is the correct (desired) one anyway - menu at the top, then a couple of links lower down. So, should I be putting tabindex in, and if so, why?No, you don't need tabindex if the source
order is already correct. And what's the current thinking on accesskey?Mostly useless, due to the way they were implemented. It's practically impossible to find enough key assignments that are guaranteed not to interfere with browser/assistive technology/operating system shortcuts.P-- Patrick H. Lauke__re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively[latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.ukhttp://redux.deviantart.com__Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Forcehttp://webstandards.org/__From: Designer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2006 14:19:44 +Subject: Re: [WSG] tabindexThank you Gentlemen,I'll strip the bloomin'
things out again then!The validator I was using (Patrick) is the one which appears in the FF web developer toolbar ('validate WIA) and it's items 9.4 and 9.5 which warn me that:[/Rule: 9.4.1 - All Anchor, AREA, BUTTON, INPUT, OBJECT, SELECT and TEXTAREA elements are required to use the 'tabindex' attribute.* Warning - One or more Anchor, AREA, BUTTON, INPUT, OBJECT, SELECTand TEXTAREA elements do not use the 'tabindex' attribute./]--mutter mutter :-)Best Regards,Bob McClellandCornwall (UK)www.gwelanmor-internet.co.ukFrom: "Joseph R. B. Taylor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2006 14:58:28 -0500Subject: Website Directory Structure - Best PracticeGreetings Friends,A topic I haven't seen posted here yet, that I feel is relevant when it comes to working to have a standard way of doing things.When it comes to website directory structure, I'm
curious to know how you gurus out there set up yours.I myself, have been using this set up:root web folder-images-main.htm-events.htm-bio.htmetc, etcRecently I was hired to do some cleanup on a site I hadn't built and the directory was set up like:root web folder-main--images--main.htm-events--images--events.htm-bio--images--bio.htmetc, etcLooking at these two layouts, I first notice that the 2nd layout has multiple images folders, one for each page in fact. This sort of organizes the images better, but now there's images all over the place.How do YOU set up your directories?Joseph R. B. TaylorSites by Joe, LLChttp://sitesbyjoe.com(609)335-3076[EMAIL PROTECTED]From: Jay Gilmore <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2006 16:31:32
Re: [WSG] Certified Usable
On 06/03/20 03:31 Craig Errey apparently typed: I'm the managing director of PTG Global, and developed the product. You can see my bio here http://www.ptg-global.com/about-ptg/the-board/craig-errey/craig-errey_home.cfm I'd like to know how it's possible to find any web site certifiably usable when your own site can't be bothered to serve users the size text they want by default but instead arbitrarily reduce it from whatever size they find most usable. http://mrmazda.no-ip.com/SS/ptgglobal1.jpg screenshot http://mrmazda.no-ip.com/tmp/showcase-ptgglobal.html SS setup source http://www.useit.com/alertbox/designmistakes.html Top Design Mistakes http://psychology.wichita.edu/optimalweb/text.htm What Size Users Prefer http://www.xs4all.nl/~sbpoley/webmatters/fontsize.html Best Practice -- Blessed are they whose ways are blameless, who walk according to the law of the Lord.Psalm 119:11 NIV Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://mrmazda.no-ip.com/auth/auth ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Re: Website Directory Structure - Best Practice
Nancy Johnson wrote: I believe best practices are to have all images in a directory entitled images, all css, in a folder entitled css etc etc, However, there are exceptions. I work for a college and have 200 images of headshots of faculty and put in an a separate directory for management purposes. You need to look at how the site is used and managed. Best Practices, isn't always 100% appropriate. Nancy Johnson Nancy, I don't believe that anyone here is suggesting that Best Practices is some sort of dogma. They are practices -- ways of doing things that work well under a number of circumstances. What we are looking for is not some ultimate format or way but solutions that might be better than our own. Wikipedia: The term best practice generally refers to the best possible way of doing something;... All the best, Jay -- Jay Gilmore Developer / Consultant SmashingRed Web Marketing P] 902.529.0651 E] [EMAIL PROTECTED] U] http://www.smashingred.com B] http://www.smashingred.com/blog ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Forward-slash suppresses word wrap in Windows IE
I've just blown some time trying to debug my CSS as rendered by IE6,
finally discovering that the problem had nothing to do with CSS.
In Windows IE, a forward-slash (virgule) that follows whitespace
suppresses word wrap:
http://juniperwebcraft.com/demo/slashwrap.html
It's only these Windows IE-class browsers that share this peculiarity:
- IE 5.0
- IE 5.5
- IE 6.0
- IE 7.0
- AOL 9.0
http://www.browsercam.com/public.aspx?proj_id=237505
Solutions: I haven't found a way to negate the effect. The CSS rule
{white-space: normal} does not override it, nor does using the HTML
entity #47;
Workarounds: Preceding the slash with a BR tag works, of course, but
I haven't yet found anything else.
Your suggestions are welcome.
I'm croggled that I've never stumbled on this before. I haven't
found any reference to it on the net.
Is it a bug or could Microsoft possibly consider it a feature?
This may be a trivial point, but it hung me up for a while because I
couldn't believe it wasn't my CSS that was causing a text box to
exceed its styled width in IE. The client's text I was marking up
separated two words with a space and a forward-slash. Fortunately
this character sequence is highly unusual.
Grumpily,
Paul
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Re: [WSG] Re: Website Directory Structure - Best Practice
Nancy Johnson wrote: I believe best practices are to have all images in a directory entitled images Hi Nancy, I would not encourage this practice. There are two types of images on Web site - site level images (mostly used in page layout like logos, buttons, backgrounds, etc.) and document level images (images used by a given document). If you put all images into the images folder, it's like putting things into a black hole; things go it but never come out. The problem is just by looking at the files in the images folder, you have no idea which documents are referencing them so you are not sure if you can ever delete them. The best file system way to manage images that I found so far is to create folders with the ID of the document and then place all document level files like images and attachments (pdf, doc, etc.) into these folders. When you delete a document, you can then delete the folder associated with this document. Regards, -Vlad http://xstandard.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Forward-slash suppresses word wrap in Windows IE
Paul Novitski wrote:
Workarounds: Preceding the slash with a BR tag works, of course, but
I haven't yet found anything else.
Your suggestions are welcome.
Hi Paul,
Try this:
P.demo2 {word-break:break-all}
Regards,
Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com
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Re: [WSG] Forward-slash suppresses word wrap in Windows IE
At 08:49 AM 3/20/2006, Thierry Koblentz wrote:
Paul Novitski wrote:
Workarounds: Preceding the slash with a BR tag works, of course, but
I haven't yet found anything else.
Try this:
P.demo2 {word-break:break-all}
Thanks, Thierry, but no go:
word-break is shorthand for word-break-CJK || word-break-inside
[1]. word-break-CJK is used with Chinese, Japanese, and Korean type
orthographies. It breaks between characters strictly at the block
width without regard for Latin-style word breaks.
Regards,
Paul
[1] http://www.w3.org/TR/2002/WD-css3-text-20021024/#line-breaking
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[WSG] Mixing innerHTML and DOM - test and question
Yet another test/demo-case, this time it's about innerHTML and W3C DOM.
I have a question towards the end...
Trying to explain to my students how innerHTML works and how DOM-methods work,
and why one should not mix them, I set up the following page:
http://ne.keryx.se/dhtmldemo/inner_html_and_dom.php
Beware, it's in Swedish, but should be understandable in essence anyway. There
are four divs, with green borders. Except for the headings (Test 1, Test 2, etc)
their content should be identical. Commentaries in the JS-code are in English.
The first div is filled with static XHTML.
The contents of the second one are made with DOM-methods.
That content will be read with innerHTML and reproduced, also using innerHTML,
in the third div.
That div in turn will be parsed with W3C DOM-methods and yet again reproduced in
the fourth and last div.
There are two links above the boxes. One will cause the page to be sent as
text/html, the other as application/xhtml+mxl.
My results are as follows:
When sent as text/html:
Perfect result in Firefox 1.5
Perfect result in Opera 8.52
Perfect result in Safari (according to http://www.snugtech.com/safaritest/)
Failing in MSIE. innerHTML can't access content created with DOM-methods.
When sent as application/xhtml+xml:
Perfect result in Firefox 1.5 (I know it won't work in 1.0x, as innerHTML is
unavailable.)
Flawed result in Opera 8.52.(See my question below.)
Failing in Safari (innerHTML seems to be unavailable, as in FFox 1.0x).
Failing in MSIE. It does not - as we all know - support this content-type.(
These results will no doubt not be surprising to most members of this list, but
I thought it could be useful to actually see a test. As you won't be able to see
the php-code otherwise I am enclosing the source code below.
If you want to set upt this page yourselves, there are two auxiliary files:
addEvent.js and jsUtilities.js. The first contain my implementation of John
Resig's addEvent. Any X-browser addEvent-function will do. The second contains
(among other things) Simon Willisons createElement, which will abstract away the
difference between document.createElement and document.createElementNS.
Back to my question:
The Opera bug: The second h2-tag (first one made with JS) won't render properly,
nor will its title-attribute work. Which is strange, because it will be
reproduced in the following two divs correctly!
Can anyone explain this?
Lars Gunther
?php
/**
* Testing innerHTML and DOM-methods together.
*
* @author Lars Gunther [EMAIL PROTECTED]
* @license Creative Commons Share Alike
*/
if ( isset($_GET['ctype']) $_GET['ctype'] == 'xhtml' ) {
header('Content-type: application/xhtml+xml; charset=iso-8859-1');
echo ''.'?xml version=1.0 encoding=iso-8859-1 ?'.\n;
} else {
header('Content-type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1');
}
$self = basename($_SERVER['SCRIPT_FILENAME']);
?
!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC -//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Strict//EN
http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-strict.dtd;
html xmlns=http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml; xml:lang=sv lang=sv
head
titleInner HTML test and demo/title
meta http-equiv=Content-Type content=text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 /
meta name=description content=Skapa och data med innerHTML och DOM. /
style type=text/css
body {
font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans serif;
font-size: small;
}
strong {
font-size: medium;
}
#wrapper {
width: 70%;
margin: auto;
}
h1 {
font-family: Georgia, Garamond, Times New Roman, serif;
font-size: x-large;
color: #0066FF;
text-align: center;
}
#wrapper div {
margin: 1em;
border: 2px ridge green;
padding: 0.5em 1em;
}
/style
script type=text/javascript src=addEvent.js/script
script type=text/javascript src=jsUtilities.js/script
script type=text/javascript
//![CDATA[
// It's really important to declare this as CDATA as we will use
// comparison operators and this script is not external.
var hTitleText = 'Du ser detta när musen är över rubriken.';
// Title attribute
var pstartText = 'Några ord, varav '; // First text in p-tag
var strongText = 'vissa är betonade'; // Text in strong-tag
var pendText = ', och andra inte.'; // Last text in p-tag
// Will work if W3C-methods are supported
// Opera 8.52 will not show the heading correctly (no title, wrong font)
function testF2()
{
if (!createElement || !document.createTextNode ||
!document.getElementById) {
alert(Browser lack necassary methods for test 2!); return;
}
var htag = createElement('h2');
var pstart = document.createTextNode('Test 2');
htag.appendChild(pstart);
htag.setAttribute('title',hTitleText);
var ptag = createElement('p');
Re: [WSG] Forward-slash suppresses word wrap in Windows IE
Paul Novitski wrote:
Workarounds: Preceding the slash with a BR tag works, of course, but
I haven't yet found anything else.
Try this:
P.demo2 {word-break:break-all}
Thanks, Thierry, but no go:
word-break is shorthand for word-break-CJK || word-break-inside
[1]. word-break-CJK is used with Chinese, Japanese, and Korean type
orthographies. It breaks between characters strictly at the block
width without regard for Latin-style word breaks.
I missed part of the question, I tought you just wanted to break the string,
no matter where...
Another solution would be to use IMG elements in there. It's an ugly
workaround, but unlike the BRs they would create line break only when and
where needed.
Regards,
Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com
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Re: [WSG] IE hacking.
Hi All, Thanks for your help it was useful. I like the comment about the customer always being right. Perhaps this could be forwarded to Microsoft as I am a customer and have asked them to build a standards compliant browser and yet they have chosen to ignore me. They are not aware of this insight obviously. LOL. Thanks again. On 20/03/2006, at 5:06 PM, Laurie Savage wrote: A little OT here, but 1) the client is always right seems a good place to start with a POTENTIAL client, and 2) Most people use IE and see no earthly reason not to, no matter what our opinion of it. Your customers are not web designers and are quite reasonably uninterested in standards or design principals. They just want something that works (or in the case of IE, appears to work!). Laurie Alastair Steel wrote: We now have a potential client that, for reasons beyond reason, wants to use IE. Any assistance appreciated. Thanks, Alastair. -- Laurie Savage = Student Assessment, Reporting and Tracking Pascoe Vale Girls College, 03 9306 2544 Lake Ave, Pascoe Vale, Victoria, 3044 = ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Certified Usable
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Felix Miata Sent: Tuesday, 21 March 2006 2:41 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Certified Usable On 06/03/20 03:31 Craig Errey apparently typed: I'm the managing director of PTG Global, and developed the product. You can see my bio here http://www.ptg-global.com/about-ptg/the-board/craig-errey/craig-errey_ home.cfm I'd like to know how it's possible to find any web site certifiably usable when your own site can't be bothered to serve users the size text they want by default but instead arbitrarily reduce it from whatever size they find most usable. That is another good point, I believe. Accessibility of a Website is part of its Usability. If blind users cannot understand the structure of a website, there is no way it is usable for them. If a user with cognitive disability cannot understand the content of a website, it is also not usable for him/her. By certifying usability you must therefore also certify accessibility. And that is a huge statement, considering all the individual groups of users with very specific needs that might access a website. Can anybody surely say: This website is accessible to everybody no matter what requirements they have? In particular complex transaction sites and rich applications like internet banking, online travel booking, ERP and CRM systems cannot be made accessible for everybody. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Forward-slash suppresses word wrap in Windows IE
At 12:01 PM 3/20/2006, Thierry Koblentz wrote: Paul Novitski wrote: Workarounds: Preceding the slash with a BR tag works, of course, but I haven't yet found anything else. Another solution would be to use IMG elements in there. It's an ugly workaround, but unlike the BRs they would create line break only when and where needed. Thanks, Thierry. Sadly, yours may be the best solution. I've added it to my demo page: http://juniperwebcraft.com/demo/slashwrap.html and run it through Browsercam: http://www.browsercam.com/public.aspx?proj_id=237505 The problem begins to show up on the third page (pictures 25-36). Your solution fixes the problem in those instances and doesn't break in any instance. I have to say, though, that inserting images into the HTML purely in order to tweak the presentation makes me twitch. Tremble as you watch the finger bones of spacer gifs claw their way out of the grave! Paul ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Re: Website Directory Structure - Best Practice
Vlad Alexander (XStandard) wrote: If you put all images into the images folder, it's like putting things into a black hole; things go it but never come out. The problem is just by looking at the files in the images folder, you have no idea which documents are referencing them so you are not sure if you can ever delete them. Simple way to handle this: Never delete them! Since Cool URIs don't change, no document should ever be deleted, and thus any document that does reference the image will still be there and require the image. Even if the document is edited to have the reference removed, it's still good to have it there for historical reasons and so that it may be used again in the future. However, it can be very useful to categorise images into subfolders so that it makes it easier to find and use later. I find dated folders is the most effective way to categorise images, which helps allow the URIs to be maintained perpetually. -- Lachlan Hunt http://lachy.id.au/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Forward-slash suppresses word wrap in Windows IE
Thierry Koblentz wrote:
Paul Novitski wrote:
Workarounds: Preceding the slash with a BR tag works, of course, but
I haven't yet found anything else.
Try this:
P.demo2 {word-break:break-all}
Thanks, Thierry, but no go:
... It breaks between characters strictly at the block
width without regard for Latin-style word breaks.
I missed part of the question, I tought you just wanted to break the string,
no matter where...
Another solution would be to use IMG elements in there.
Better yet, use the character U+200B ZERO WIDTH SPACE (though, you'd
need to check browser support)
--
Lachlan Hunt
http://lachy.id.au/
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**
Re: [WSG] IE hacking.
re Perhaps this could be forwarded to Microsoft as I am a customer and have asked them to build a standards compliant browser and yet they have chosen to ignore me. I for one think Microsoft deserve massive kudos. They *are* doing all they can to make IE7 a decent standards compliant browser. Yeah, it was a while coming, but things could be worse. pete o ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Testing multiple Flash Player versions...
Hi Paul,I use Flash Plugin Switcher:http://www.kewbee.de/produkte/PluginSwitcher.htmlsite is in German, but the help is in English: http://www.kewbee.de/FlashPluginSwitcher/Help/Macromedia/Adobe have a bunch of old versions of the player available for download which you can use with it: http://www.macromedia.com/cfusion/knowledgebase/index.cfm?id=tn_14266Hope this helps.On 3/21/06, Paul Collins [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi all Just wondering if anyone has a clever way of testing multiple Flash players on a single machine? Preferably without having to uninstall. If not, does anyone know of a good place to download earlier versions? Cheers, Paul -- Lindsay Evanshttp://lindsayevans.com/
Re: [WSG] Forward-slash suppresses word wrap in Windows IE
Better yet, use the character U+200B ZERO WIDTH SPACE (though, you'd
need to check browser support)
Something along those lines...
HTML:
i class=wbrv#8203;/i
CSS:
* html .wbrv {font-family: Arial Unicode MS; visibility: hidden;}
...is what I use when everything else fails.
Georg
--
http://www.gunlaug.no
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Re: [WSG] Forward-slash suppresses word wrap in Windows IE
Lachlan Hunt wrote: Thierry Koblentz wrote: I missed part of the question, I tought you just wanted to break the string, no matter where... Another solution would be to use IMG elements in there. Better yet, use the character U+200B ZERO WIDTH SPACE (though, you'd need to check browser support) I tried #8203; it does break the line but unfortunately it also creates a square character in IE (not visible in modern browsers). Regards, Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Re: Website Directory Structure - Best Practice
Vlad Alexander wrote: Nancy Johnson wrote: I believe best practices are to have all images in a directory entitled images Hi Nancy, I would not encourage this practice. There are two types of images on Web site - site level images (mostly used in page layout like logos, buttons, backgrounds, etc.) and document level images (images used by a given document). If you put all images into the images folder, it's like putting things into a black hole; things go it but never come out. The problem is just by looking at the files in the images folder, you have no idea which documents are referencing them so you are not sure if you can ever delete them. The best file system way to manage images that I found so far is to create folders with the ID of the document and then place all document level files like images and attachments (pdf, doc, etc.) into these folders. When you delete a document, you can then delete the folder associated with this document. One technique I use is to put all background images in the same folder as the css. I only use 'images' folders for actual content images. Ideally there won't be any other sort. Geoff. == The information contained in this email and any attachment is confidential and may contain legally privileged or copyright material. It is intended only for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient of this email, you are not permitted to disseminate, distribute or copy this email or any attachments. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete this email from your system. The ABC does not represent or warrant that this transmission is secure or virus free. Before opening any attachment you should check for viruses. The ABC's liability is limited to resupplying any email and attachments == ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Forward-slash suppresses word wrap in Windows IE
Gunlaug Sørtun wrote:
Better yet, use the character U+200B ZERO WIDTH SPACE (though, you'd
need to check browser support)
Something along those lines...
HTML:
i class=wbrv#8203;/i
CSS:
* html .wbrv {font-family: Arial Unicode MS; visibility: hidden;}
...is what I use when everything else fails.
That takes care of the square character, but it also creates an empty space
at the beginning of the line.
What about:
HTML:
i/i
CSS:
* html i {width:0;overflow:hidden}
Shorter and seems to work fine...
Regards,
Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com
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[WSG] Chinese translations and PHP includes
Title: [WSG] Chinese translations and PHP includes Hello list, I am embarking on my first multi-lingual site (English, Simplified Chinese and Traditional Chinese). It is to be a static site (no databases) and I have used PHP to take advantage of the server-side includes. The doctype for my Simplified Chinese PHP pages is: !DOCTYPE html PUBLIC -//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Transitional//EN http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-transitional.dtd html head meta http-equiv=Content-Language content=zh / meta http-equiv=Content-Type content=text/html; charset=GB18030 / I do not place any header in my includes, simply the raw HTML I think I will need. (In the example file it is nothing more than the Chinese text wrapped in a paragraph tag.) My major problem is this: when I save the include, all Chinese characters are rendered as a series of question marks. You can see my example file here: http://www.digitaldogma.com.au/clients/helprequest/ Any suggestions would be appreciated! Thanks, Adrian.
Re: [WSG] Forward-slash suppresses word wrap in Windows IE
Paul Novitski wrote: I have to say, though, that inserting images into the HTML purely in order to tweak the presentation makes me twitch. Tremble as you watch the finger bones of spacer gifs claw their way out of the grave! I agree ;) IMHO, the best would be to use an *empty* SPAN with the CSS rule I mentionned in my previous post. Georg's I idea is great in term of minimal markup though. Regards, Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Chinese translations and PHP includes
Adrian O'Hagan wrote: I am embarking on my first multi-lingual site (English, Simplified Chinese and Traditional Chinese). It is to be a static site (no databases) and I have used PHP to take advantage of the server-side includes. Although there's nothing wrong with using PHP, you don't need to for just server-side includes, you can just use SSI. http://httpd.apache.org/docs/1.3/howto/ssi.html !DOCTYPE html PUBLIC -//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Transitional//EN http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-transitional.dtd; Unless you have a specific reason to use XHTML, it is advisable to use HTML 4.01. It is also very advisable to use a Strict DOCTYPE, since the transitional phase is over. html Use html lang=zh Or, if you insist on XHTML, you *must* declare the xmlns and should use xml:lang as well. html xmlns=http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml; xml:lang=zh lang=zh However, it's far easier to just use HTML 4.01 Strict, since XHTML is far too complicated. (When you switch to HTML 4, you must also stop trying to use XML empty element syntax) head meta http-equiv=Content-Language content=zh / Using the meta element with an http-equiv attribute set to anything other than Content-Type is completely useless. meta http-equiv=Content-Type content=text/html; charset=GB18030 / Using the meta element with an http-equiv attribute set to Content-Type is completely useless for XHTML, you must use real HTTP headers. For HTML, you should use real HTTP headers as the meta element is an inferior substitute. http://lachy.id.au/log/2006/01/content-type Additionally, you should consider using a Unicode encoding such as UTF-8 or UTF-16. AFAIK, PHP does not yet support UTF-16, so that leaves UTF-8 which it can work acceptably with, as long as you avoid the Byte Order Mark. See my 3 part guide to unicode: http://lachy.id.au/log/2004/12/guide-to-unicode-part-1 For PHP, setting HTTP headers is as simple as adding this to the top of the template: ?php header(Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8); ? My major problem is this: when I save the include, all Chinese characters are rendered as a series of question marks. http://www.digitaldogma.com.au/clients/helprequest/ That either means you have a character encoding issue, which is discussed in my guide to Unicode, or the fonts are not available with those Glyphs on your computer. I suspect it's an encoding issue, but the computer I'm on at the moment probably doesn't have those glyphs either, so I can't be sure. -- Lachlan Hunt http://lachy.id.au/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Chinese translations and PHP includes
Is your include file written in the correct charset? At 10:50 AM 21/03/2006, Adrian O'Hagan wrote: Hello list, I am embarking on my first multi-lingual site (English, Simplified Chinese and Traditional Chinese). It is to be a static site (no databases) and I have used PHP to take advantage of the server-side includes. The doctype for my Simplified Chinese PHP pages is: !DOCTYPE html PUBLIC -//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Transitional//EN http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-transitional.dtdhttp://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-transitional.dtd; html head meta http-equiv=Content-Language content=zh / meta http-equiv=Content-Type content=text/html; charset=GB18030 / I do not place any header in my includes, simply the raw HTML I think I will need. (In the example file it is nothing more than the Chinese text wrapped in a paragraph tag.) My major problem is this: when I save the include, all Chinese characters are rendered as a series of question marks. You can see my example file here: http://www.digitaldogma.com.au/clients/helprequest/http://www.digitaldogma.com.au/clients/helprequest/ Any suggestions would be appreciated! Thanks, Adrian. Best Regards Ray Cauchi Manager/Lead Developer ( T W E E K ! ) PO Box 15 Wentworth Falls NSW Australia 2782 | p:+61 2 4757 1600 | f:+61 2 4757 3808 | m:0414 270 400 | e:[EMAIL PROTECTED] | w:www.tweek.com.au ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Chinese translations and PHP includes
Thanks Lachlan (and Fernguly for the off-list response!), You've given me plenty to work with - I'll see how it goes. Cheers, Adrian Adrian O'Hagan wrote: I am embarking on my first multi-lingual site (English, Simplified Chinese and Traditional Chinese). It is to be a static site (no databases) and I have used PHP to take advantage of the server-side includes. Although there's nothing wrong with using PHP, you don't need to for just server-side includes, you can just use SSI. http://httpd.apache.org/docs/1.3/howto/ssi.html !DOCTYPE html PUBLIC -//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Transitional//EN http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-transitional.dtd; Unless you have a specific reason to use XHTML, it is advisable to use HTML 4.01. It is also very advisable to use a Strict DOCTYPE, since the transitional phase is over. html Use html lang=zh Or, if you insist on XHTML, you *must* declare the xmlns and should use xml:lang as well. html xmlns=http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml; xml:lang=zh lang=zh However, it's far easier to just use HTML 4.01 Strict, since XHTML is far too complicated. (When you switch to HTML 4, you must also stop trying to use XML empty element syntax) head meta http-equiv=Content-Language content=zh / Using the meta element with an http-equiv attribute set to anything other than Content-Type is completely useless. meta http-equiv=Content-Type content=text/html; charset=GB18030 / Using the meta element with an http-equiv attribute set to Content-Type is completely useless for XHTML, you must use real HTTP headers. For HTML, you should use real HTTP headers as the meta element is an inferior substitute. http://lachy.id.au/log/2006/01/content-type Additionally, you should consider using a Unicode encoding such as UTF-8 or UTF-16. AFAIK, PHP does not yet support UTF-16, so that leaves UTF-8 which it can work acceptably with, as long as you avoid the Byte Order Mark. See my 3 part guide to unicode: http://lachy.id.au/log/2004/12/guide-to-unicode-part-1 For PHP, setting HTTP headers is as simple as adding this to the top of the template: ?php header(Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8); ? My major problem is this: when I save the include, all Chinese characters are rendered as a series of question marks. http://www.digitaldogma.com.au/clients/helprequest/ That either means you have a character encoding issue, which is discussed in my guide to Unicode, or the fonts are not available with those Glyphs on your computer. I suspect it's an encoding issue, but the computer I'm on at the moment probably doesn't have those glyphs either, so I can't be sure. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Great Radio National Podcast on Deafness
ABC's Radio National Late Night Live program has produced a really insightful interview about Deafness. I think it's well worth a listen and might give you a good insight into deaf culture and the medical model of deafness in Australia and internationally. Deaf Culture Summary Is deafness a disadvantage or a different way of being? Members of the deaf community and medical doctors discuss the notion of a distinct 'deaf culture'. This program was originally broadcast in 1993 and won a Human Rights Award. http://www.abc.net.au/rn/podcast/feeds/lnl_20060310.mp3 25 MB runs for approximately 1 hour Lisa Herrod Senior Consultant, Usability P: 02 9467 5047 M: 0403 795 435 E: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Access Testing The Experts in Testing Sydney : Melbourne : Brisbane www.accesstesting.com This email is confidential, intended solely for the addressees, and may be legally privileged. If you're not the intended recipient, any access, copying, distribution, or action taken or omitted relying on it is prohibited and may be unlawful. Please delete it and notify the sender. Views expressed in the message are those of the individual sender, and are not necessarily the views of Access Testing. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Chinese translations and PHP includes
Hi Adrian, when I save the include, all Chinese characters are rendered as a series of question marks. Could it be just a problem with your editor? Are you saving the file with the right encoding? What happens when you reopen the files on your editor? I do not place any header in my includes You need not. Only on the final page. Have you tried including those files manually on the final page (copypaste)? If you get the same result then it has nothing to do with php or includes. You seem to be serving no http encoding headers. Maybe sending the http enconding could help. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Chinese translations and PHP includes
Hi Micky, I am using Dreamweaver for this - and you may well be right that it is an editor issue. When I reopen the file in my editor, it all goes pearshaped. I will investigate the editor settings, or edit directly in simpletext... Thanks, Adrian Hi Adrian, when I save the include, all Chinese characters are rendered as a series of question marks. Could it be just a problem with your editor? Are you saving the file with the right encoding? What happens when you reopen the files on your editor? I do not place any header in my includes You need not. Only on the final page. Have you tried including those files manually on the final page (copypaste)? If you get the same result then it has nothing to do with php or includes. You seem to be serving no http encoding headers. Maybe sending the http enconding could help. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Chinese translations and PHP includes
Hi Ray, The include file has no defined charset, but should receive the same charset as the page it is being brought into. From Micky's post it may be more of an editor issue, which sits well with my current experience. Thanks, Adrian Is your include file written in the correct charset? At 10:50 AM 21/03/2006, Adrian O'Hagan wrote: Hello list, I am embarking on my first multi-lingual site (English, Simplified Chinese and Traditional Chinese). It is to be a static site (no databases) and I have used PHP to take advantage of the server-side includes. The doctype for my Simplified Chinese PHP pages is: !DOCTYPE html PUBLIC -//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Transitional//EN http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-transitional.dtdhttp://www.w3.org/T R/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-transitional.dtd html head meta http-equiv=Content-Language content=zh / meta http-equiv=Content-Type content=text/html; charset=GB18030 / I do not place any header in my includes, simply the raw HTML I think I will need. (In the example file it is nothing more than the Chinese text wrapped in a paragraph tag.) My major problem is this: when I save the include, all Chinese characters are rendered as a series of question marks. You can see my example file here: http://www.digitaldogma.com.au/clients/helprequest/http://www.digitaldogma. com.au/clients/helprequest/ Any suggestions would be appreciated! Thanks, Adrian. Best Regards Ray Cauchi Manager/Lead Developer ( T W E E K ! ) PO Box 15 Wentworth Falls NSW Australia 2782 | p:+61 2 4757 1600 | f:+61 2 4757 3808 | m:0414 270 400 | e:[EMAIL PROTECTED] | w:www.tweek.com.au ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Chinese translations and PHP includes
Thanks everyone, Issue resolved! Twas the evils of Dreamweaver - if I edit in SimpleText all is fine... Thanks again for your valuable help. Adrian. Hi Ray, The include file has no defined charset, but should receive the same charset as the page it is being brought into. From Micky's post it may be more of an editor issue, which sits well with my current experience. Thanks, Adrian Is your include file written in the correct charset? At 10:50 AM 21/03/2006, Adrian O'Hagan wrote: Hello list, I am embarking on my first multi-lingual site (English, Simplified Chinese and Traditional Chinese). It is to be a static site (no databases) and I have used PHP to take advantage of the server-side includes. The doctype for my Simplified Chinese PHP pages is: !DOCTYPE html PUBLIC -//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Transitional//EN http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-transitional.dtdhttp://www.w3.org/ T R/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-transitional.dtd html head meta http-equiv=Content-Language content=zh / meta http-equiv=Content-Type content=text/html; charset=GB18030 / I do not place any header in my includes, simply the raw HTML I think I will need. (In the example file it is nothing more than the Chinese text wrapped in a paragraph tag.) My major problem is this: when I save the include, all Chinese characters are rendered as a series of question marks. You can see my example file here: http://www.digitaldogma.com.au/clients/helprequest/http://www.digitaldogma . com.au/clients/helprequest/ Any suggestions would be appreciated! Thanks, Adrian. Best Regards Ray Cauchi Manager/Lead Developer ( T W E E K ! ) PO Box 15 Wentworth Falls NSW Australia 2782 | p:+61 2 4757 1600 | f:+61 2 4757 3808 | m:0414 270 400 | e:[EMAIL PROTECTED] | w:www.tweek.com.au ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Great Radio National Podcast on Deafness
Is there a transcript of that podcast for those of us who ARE Deaf? Leslie Riggs ABC's Radio National Late Night Live program has produced a really insightful interview about Deafness. I think it's well worth a listen and might give you a good insight into deaf culture and the medical model of deafness in Australia and internationally. Deaf Culture Summary Is deafness a disadvantage or a different way of being? Members of the deaf community and medical doctors discuss the notion of a distinct 'deaf culture'. This program was originally broadcast in 1993 and won a Human Rights Award. http://www.abc.net.au/rn/podcast/feeds/lnl_20060310.mp3 25 MB runs for approximately 1 hour Lisa Herrod Senior Consultant, Usability ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Chinese translations and PHP includes
Adrian O'Hagan wrote: I am using Dreamweaver for this - and you may well be right that it is an editor issue. In Dreamweaver, set the default file encoding to UTF-8 and use Unicode for all files. Avoid using any legacy encodings. Edit Preferences... (or Dreamweaver Preferences... on Mac) Select the New Document pane. Set the Default Encoding to UTF-8 Check Use when opening existing files that don't specify and encoding Uncheck Use Unicode Signature (BOM) - Unfortunately, the BOM causes problems with PHP and other things, so it's safer to not include it. -- Lachlan Hunt http://lachy.id.au/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Chinese translations and PHP includes
Lachlan Hunt wrote: Use html lang=zh Or, if you insist on XHTML, you *must* declare the xmlns and should use xml:lang as well. html xmlns=http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml; xml:lang=zh lang=zh Such a language code would be ambiguous and could have unintended rendering consequences in differnet browsers. For Simplified Chinese, it would be better to label it as zh-CN, not overly correct but has a lot of built in support in web broswers. Likewise use zh-TW for Traditional Chinese. Andrew ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Re: Website Directory Structure - Best Practice
Lachlan Hunt wrote: Never delete them! Since Cool URIs don't change, no document should ever be deleted Lachlan, I'd hate to think that you are giving advice based on an article you've read or from the practice of operating a personal blog. So I am going to assume that you are basing your advice on years of experience in managing large Web sites with hundreds of staff content contributors. So, before we all remove the Delete button in our content management systems, can you please let us know on which projects you have successfully applied the principle of no document should ever be deleted? Regards, -Vlad http://xstandard.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Re: Website Directory Structure - Best Practice
Call me fastidious, but I like all my file types to be the same in one folder. That is, the styles folder should have only stylesheets, images should have only images. When it comes to Flash I tend to put these in a folder called media for some reason R :o) --Original Message -- One technique I use is to put all background images in the same folder as the css. I only use 'images' folders for actual content images. Ideally there won't be any other sort. Geoff. == The information contained in this email and any attachment is confidential and may contain legally privileged or copyright material. It is intended only for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient of this email, you are not permitted to disseminate, distribute or copy this email or any attachments. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete this email from your system. The ABC does not represent or warrant that this transmission is secure or virus free. Before opening any attachment you should check for viruses. The ABC's liability is limited to resupplying any email and attachments == ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Re: Website Directory Structure - Best Practice
Sorry Vlad - Ithink I'm with Lachlan on this one... Docs can be edited or re-written but if they're obsolete, you don't need to delete them - just don't link to them... If there's a conflict in nomenclature, like having a file called logo.gif for a company logo and you've a logo for one of their products also called logo.gif then you've got a problem with your naming conventions. Can you please suggest a reason why there would be an absolute need to delete a file? BTW: I'm not saying that under no circustances should precious bytes be wiped off the grid! But unless there's a strongly powerful reason, I would think that there's no need to delete files... R ;o) PS: Let's point out that the article Lachlan's referring to was written by the guy who invented the web so it's not exactly an unreliable source. - Original Message - From: Vlad Alexander (XStandard) [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2006 12:38 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] Re: Website Directory Structure - Best Practice Lachlan Hunt wrote: Never delete them! Since Cool URIs don't change, no document should ever be deleted Lachlan, I'd hate to think that you are giving advice based on an article you've read or from the practice of operating a personal blog. So I am going to assume that you are basing your advice on years of experience in managing large Web sites with hundreds of staff content contributors. So, before we all remove the Delete button in our content management systems, can you please let us know on which projects you have successfully applied the principle of no document should ever be deleted? Regards, -Vlad http://xstandard.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Website Directory Structure - Best Practice
When it comes to website directory structure, I'm curious to know how you gurus out there set up yours. Well, I can't speak for gurus, but the way I do it: Each site or sub-site gets its own set of standard sub-directories, forming a self-contained set of documents and support files. Common sub-dirs would be /img/ or /images/, /style/ (or /css/, although that's naming to technical details and not function) and /doc/ or /nonweb/ for things like .doc, .pdf, etc. I don't use flash so that hasn't really come up :) Realistically I don't think it matters what the names are so long as they're used consistent across the whole site. -Ben -- --- http://www.200ok.com.au/ --- The future has arrived; it's just not --- evenly distributed. - William Gibson ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Re: Website Directory Structure - Best Practice
Richard Czeiger wrote: Sorry Vlad - Ithink I'm with Lachlan on this one... Docs can be edited or re-written but if they're obsolete, you don't need to delete them - just don't link to them... Actually, Lachlan said no URI should be deleted which everybody has taken to mean no document left behind or some such. If a document becomes obsolete, remove it and redirect the URI to a page that notifies the user of the fact and offers a newer version. How many times have you used Google and got a 404 because someone had removed the document you were coming for? And why would you have a document on your site that *wasn't* linked to? Can you please suggest a reason why there would be an absolute need to delete a file? Can you in turn suggest a reason why you would retain a document on a site that was unlinked? BTW: I'm not saying that under no circustances should precious bytes be wiped off the grid! But unless there's a strongly powerful reason, I would think that there's no need to delete files... ::thinks:: Dynamic website giving regularly updated information on ongoing activities? Ohh, look, NASA... PS: Let's point out that the article Lachlan's referring to was written by the guy who invented the web so it's not exactly an unreliable source. Well, I'm sure Nobel didn't envisage car bombs, either, when he invented nitroglycerin. Things change once they're unleashed on the world. (although I agree with the venerable Sir Tim on this, and Lachlan of course) But URI != document, necessarily, and an superseded document may be more dangerous than not finding anything. Cheers mark ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Re: Website Directory Structure - Best Practice
Hi Richard, Can you please suggest a reason why there would be an absolute need to delete a file? That's a good question. Here are some reasons to absolutely delete files: - Legal issues / licensing. Your site may be licensed to use content for a period of time and then content needs to be removed. A real life example would be an online store that sell 3rd party products. It may use Product X images only as long as it sells Product X. - Branding issues. When a company changes it's logo, slogan, colour scheme, etc., Sales and Marketing will want to remove any images with old branding. That's the whole point of branding. - Incorrect/out-of-date information. Informative images can have old pricing info, old phone numbers, old organizational charts, old product numbers, etc. To reduce confusion, misleading information and errors, old images need to be removed. - Business reasons. You formed a partnership with Company X and it did not work out. You probably want to remove any images with both your logos together. I don't think you would want to archive that screw-up! :-) So the next logical question is, if none of my current Web pages link to old images, then what's the harm in keeping them around if I have extra disk space? Well, your Web pages are not the only entry point to your Web site's images. For example, go to google.com and click on Images. Richard, the article Lachlan referred to talks about an ideal world based on frictionless models. Whenever people get involved, you get frictions (in more sense than one). Regards, -Vlad http://xstandard.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Re: Website Directory Structure - Best Practice
Mark Harris wrote: Richard Czeiger wrote: Sorry Vlad - Ithink I'm with Lachlan on this one... Docs can be edited or re-written but if they're obsolete, you don't need to delete them - just don't link to them... Actually, Lachlan said no URI should be deleted which everybody has taken to mean no document left behind or some such. If a document becomes obsolete, remove it and redirect the URI to a page that notifies the user of the fact and offers a newer version. How many times have you used Google and got a 404 because someone had removed the document you were coming for? And why would you have a document on your site that *wasn't* linked to? Why would you cease linking to it from anywhere, even if it was only linked from some archive pages? Can you in turn suggest a reason why you would retain a document on a site that was unlinked? Because you don't know who else has linked to it from another site or bookmarked it. Of course, if the page no-longer contains any relevant information, it has been superseded by another document with a different URI and is of *no historical value*, then the old one should be removed with a proper redirect to the new one (probably 301 Moved Permanently). But in such cases, you should generally try to reuse existing URIs rather than setting up a new one. There's a good example of this that I think I read in Cool URIs don't Change, where a weather page had ceased to be updated because it had moved to a new URI, but the old one remained without any indication of the new one being present. In that case, they either should have retained the old URI or redirected to the new one. But URI != document, necessarily, and an superseded document may be more dangerous than not finding anything. I agree, but if documents are likely to be superseded by future documents, then they should have some status section that indicates meta data such as the publication date, the permalink of this version and a URI to retrieve the latest version. e.g. Like the specs from the W3C do. This does apply to commercial sites as well. If you need evidence of why this is so important, how many times have you followed a link to an old news article from a few years ago, only to find that it has since been removed? This happened to me recently with a news article on Yahoo news I think. I can't remember what article it was or where I followed the link from, but it was rather annoying not being able to read it. -- Lachlan Hunt http://lachy.id.au/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Re: Website Directory Structure - Best Practice
On 3/21/06, Lachlan Hunt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This happened to me recently with a news article on Yahoo news I think. I can't remember what article it was or where I followed the link from, but it was rather annoying not being able to read it. I found this out the hard way, I maintain a site with science news for kinds. Yahoo only keeps news items up for a few weeks, then they just disappear. Now everytime I want to link to an article I have to double-check the archives of the site in question to try and work out how far they go back and if it's safe to link. Their site breaks, my site breaks. Link rot is an ugly thing. I agree there are some things that need to go from a site, and not come back... but generally, the URI's should definitely stay, and at least go somewhere else. I think everyone here is arguing two separate points. A URI and the content at that URI are two separate things. -- Kay Smoljak http://kay.zombiecoder.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Re: Website Directory Structure - Best Practice
Hi Mark :o) To address some of the points you raised which were all fair points... In regards to having a document that wasn't linked to, you might want to have a documenton your site that was for internal archiving only. For example, last year's special products or christmas deals which could be available to those in the company with access. Alternatively, it may be for there for storage purposes only, where the link to the page is sent via an email, like sometimes do with clients to show them refernce material, etc... That brings to me to content that is 'obsolete' but not useless, like the examples above. Dynamic web sites with regularly updated information - again this seems like a nomenclature issue: For example Latest Mars News for NASA, might be better served with havng an index page with a linked archive of static URLs, or permalinks for latest articles (like /mars/news/060320.html). Of all the people who love reems of data, it's hard to imagine NASA happy to just delete files when they can archive them. However, you make some good points and I'm leaning more towards the 'delete it only if you absolutely have to' scenario... R :o) - Original Message - From: Mark Harris [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2006 1:40 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] Re: Website Directory Structure - Best Practice Richard Czeiger wrote: Sorry Vlad - Ithink I'm with Lachlan on this one... Docs can be edited or re-written but if they're obsolete, you don't need to delete them - just don't link to them... Actually, Lachlan said no URI should be deleted which everybody has taken to mean no document left behind or some such. If a document becomes obsolete, remove it and redirect the URI to a page that notifies the user of the fact and offers a newer version. How many times have you used Google and got a 404 because someone had removed the document you were coming for? And why would you have a document on your site that *wasn't* linked to? Can you please suggest a reason why there would be an absolute need to delete a file? Can you in turn suggest a reason why you would retain a document on a site that was unlinked? BTW: I'm not saying that under no circustances should precious bytes be wiped off the grid! But unless there's a strongly powerful reason, I would think that there's no need to delete files... ::thinks:: Dynamic website giving regularly updated information on ongoing activities? Ohh, look, NASA... PS: Let's point out that the article Lachlan's referring to was written by the guy who invented the web so it's not exactly an unreliable source. Well, I'm sure Nobel didn't envisage car bombs, either, when he invented nitroglycerin. Things change once they're unleashed on the world. (although I agree with the venerable Sir Tim on this, and Lachlan of course) But URI != document, necessarily, and an superseded document may be more dangerous than not finding anything. Cheers mark ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Re: Website Directory Structure - Best Practice
Hi Vlad, In the case of the products - why not simply have a page saying Product X is no longer available. Remember I'm not talking about document santity where you're not aloud to touch it, but rather the idea that you don't need to delete files - which also avoids 404 errors... Branding - if the companby have a new logo - why not use the names of the old image files and put the new logo on them? Also if the image file is more decorative, colour scheme backgrounds etc... I'd probably get rid of that. No harm, no foul. It's more content files that I'm thinking of as being more persistent. Incorrect/out of date information - well to a degree I think a lot of these files can be given new life. The Organisation Chart is old? Why not replace it with an updated chart? Business Reasons - sure, I'd say this partiocular example would be worth deletion. I also agree that the friction caused by people can be huge obstacle, but isn't that what good information architecture and technical process for? I just think that if you plann your site well and spend time accounting for future possibilities, then there are few (not no) reasons for deleting files. Just a thought... R :o) - Original Message - From: Vlad Alexander (XStandard) [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2006 2:06 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] Re: Website Directory Structure - Best Practice Hi Richard, Can you please suggest a reason why there would be an absolute need to delete a file? That's a good question. Here are some reasons to absolutely delete files: - Legal issues / licensing. Your site may be licensed to use content for a period of time and then content needs to be removed. A real life example would be an online store that sell 3rd party products. It may use Product X images only as long as it sells Product X. - Branding issues. When a company changes it's logo, slogan, colour scheme, etc., Sales and Marketing will want to remove any images with old branding. That's the whole point of branding. - Incorrect/out-of-date information. Informative images can have old pricing info, old phone numbers, old organizational charts, old product numbers, etc. To reduce confusion, misleading information and errors, old images need to be removed. - Business reasons. You formed a partnership with Company X and it did not work out. You probably want to remove any images with both your logos together. I don't think you would want to archive that screw-up! :-) So the next logical question is, if none of my current Web pages link to old images, then what's the harm in keeping them around if I have extra disk space? Well, your Web pages are not the only entry point to your Web site's images. For example, go to google.com and click on Images. Richard, the article Lachlan referred to talks about an ideal world based on frictionless models. Whenever people get involved, you get frictions (in more sense than one). Regards, -Vlad http://xstandard.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Re: Website Directory Structure - Best Practice
Richard Czeiger wrote: For example Latest Mars News for NASA, might be better served with havng an index page with a linked archive of static URLs, or permalinks for latest articles (like /mars/news/060320.html). I fully agree with what you're saying, but just have one minor issue. Dates in file names should always use 4 digit years (or more after y10k). I'm sure you all remember the y2k bug, let's not suffer again with a y2.1k bug. It's best practice to use ISO-8601 dates (with or without the hyphen), especially in file names and it has the advantage that sorting by name also sorts by date. e.g. /mars/news/2006-03-20 Or maybe: /mars/2006/03/20/article-title -- Lachlan Hunt http://lachy.id.au/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Re: Website Directory Structure - Best Practice
Bar some sort of major life extension technology then it'll be someone elses problem :D Lachlan Hunt wrote: Richard Czeiger wrote: For example Latest Mars News for NASA, might be better served with havng an index page with a linked archive of static URLs, or permalinks for latest articles (like /mars/news/060320.html). I fully agree with what you're saying, but just have one minor issue. Dates in file names should always use 4 digit years (or more after y10k). I'm sure you all remember the y2k bug, let's not suffer again with a y2.1k bug. It's best practice to use ISO-8601 dates (with or without the hyphen), especially in file names and it has the advantage that sorting by name also sorts by date. e.g. /mars/news/2006-03-20 Or maybe: /mars/2006/03/20/article-title ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Forward-slash suppresses word wrap in Windows IE
Paul Novitski wrote: In Windows IE, a forward-slash (virgule) that follows whitespace suppresses word wrap: http://juniperwebcraft.com/demo/slashwrap.html Probably a foolish suggestion - have you tried replacing the slash with a character entity? #047; or sol; seems to cover it. Something to try? warmly, Lea -- Lea de Groot Brisbane, Australia ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] H1 not aligning to top
Hi all, I have this page http://www.lyte.com.au/site/about.htm(that validates) but I can't get the header to align to the top, there is a white space between the "About Lyte" and the top navigation. I tried putting a clear:left; since the menu items are floated to the left, but if I do that the white space becomes even bigger. Does anyone have any idea? Thanks in advance. Kind regards, Taco Fleur - CEO Free Call 1800 032 982 or Mobile 0421 851 786Pacific Fox http://www.pacificfox.com.au an industry leader with commercial IT experience since 1994 Web Design and Development SMS Solutions, including developer API Domain Registration, .COM for as low as fifteendollars a year, .COM.AU for fifty dollarstwo years!
