Re: [WSG] is there a way to force legend text shows in TWO lines?
On Nov 26, 2008, at 6:49 PM, Ben Lau wrote: try white-space:normal...? Thanks a lot. This works. James, I accidentally deleted your message and empty my trash, so I am replying to your message in this post–thanks, this must be one of the best useful tips I have learned in year 2008. I knew (well, sort of as I never try to dig in to find out more) that browsers must come with a style sheet for their UIs purpose, and I presumedly thought they will in no way getting into my style sheet, and, or shall I say, they must not. It's rather disturbing and annoying to learn that the many battles, time wasted on trying to make the legend behaves in Firefox, that the whole culprit is from its style sheet. Don't know about you guys, but for me, it has always been a uphill battle to try to make sites as accessible as possible–the people I know but never met who care about accessibility is from this group only; the people I know, have to work with or give me the jobs, care none about accessibility. There is no way one can justify the one whole hour being waste to make the legend displays correctly in FF and there is no way one can tell people who give the jobs that it's important to have the legend attribute when one couldn't get it works in one whole damn hour. These browser vendors, they are just not helping people like me and the 1% of web designers on earth who care the accessibility, all they added are countless frustration, time wasted and irritation and potentially turn people like me to become apathy to accessibility. tee *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] is there a way to force legend text shows in TWO lines?
Maybe not the best solution, but I tend to set the legend to
display:none (IIRC, one can't position off-screen in some browsers), and
then insert a tad bit of additional HTML which is styled to emulate a
legend... I call this class .pseudoLegend:
(CSS:)
/* Emulate fieldset/legend: */
div.pseudoLegend {
background: #fff url(line.gif) repeat-x 0 50%; /* 5px X 1px */
margin: 15px 0 5px;
}
div.pseudoLegend h5 {
font-size: 85%;
font-weight: bold;
color: #575f6b;
text-transform: uppercase;
background-color: #fff;
margin: 0;
padding: 0 5px 0 0;
display: inline;
}
/* Hide certain elements for browsers without CSS: */
.hide { display: none !important; }
(HTML:)
...
...
div class=pseudoLegendh5E-mail Story to a friend/h5/div
fieldset
legend class=hideE-mail Story/legend
...
...
It works for me. :)
Cheers,
Micky
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Re: [WSG] is there a way to force legend text shows in TWO lines?
On Nov 27, 2008, at 12:27 AM, Micky Hulse wrote: ... ... div class=pseudoLegendh5E-mail Story to a friend/h5/div fieldset legend class=hideE-mail Story/legend It works for me. :) Cheers, Micky Thanks Micky, But isn't this defeats the whole purpose for using legend? I wouldn't care to use the legend at all if it weren't for the screen reader. With the above code, wouldn't screen reader read the h5 and legend? Wouldn't this creates unnecessary obstacle to screen reader? It seems to me it anounces the same sentence twice, one is louder, one is less louder and I can imagine I will get even more annoyed :-) tee *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] is there a way to force legend text shows in TWO lines?
On Nov 27, 2008, at 12:37 AM, tee wrote: On Nov 27, 2008, at 12:27 AM, Micky Hulse wrote: ... ... div class=pseudoLegendh5E-mail Story to a friend/h5/div fieldset legend class=hideE-mail Story/legend It works for me. :) Cheers, Micky Thanks Micky, But isn't this defeats the whole purpose for using legend? I wouldn't care to use the legend at all if it weren't for the screen reader. With the above code, wouldn't screen reader read the h5 and legend? Wouldn't this creates unnecessary obstacle to screen reader? It seems to me it anounces the same sentence twice, one is louder, one is less louder and I can imagine I will get even more annoyed :-) Sorry, I'd have just vaguely realized screen reader does not read display none. Still, it creates markup noise and defeat the purpose of using legend tee *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] Standards way of getting div background color?
Dunno, if this has been asked before.
I've been looking wherever I can for a way to get a div's or any
element's background color in a sementic friendly way (ie. works in IE
and FF) using javascript.
so far i've tried the below:
document.getElementById('element').bgColor;
document.getElementById('element').style.backgroundColor;
TIA
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Re: [WSG] is there a way to force legend text shows in TWO lines?
hi tee, this article gives you some idea of how screen readers use fieldsets/legends http://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/?p=3 also worthwhile: Too much accessibility - FIELDSET LEGENDS (http://www.rnib.org.uk/wacblog/articles/too-much-accessibility/too-much-accessibility-fieldset-legends/) In your example, the legend includes instructional text. I suggest a more appropriate legend would be shipping estimate and the select elements label as destination -- with regards Steve Faulkner Technical Director - TPG Europe Director - Web Accessibility Tools Consortium www.paciellogroup.com | www.wat-c.org Web Accessibility Toolbar - http://www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Fw: The Great Firewall of Australia
I'm not sure if this will make it to the table, but it is truly worrying. If they went to the extremes outlined though, don't you think that generally the public (not just the web development community) would put up such a stink about it, the government would be forced into taking several steps back. The things is, once they implement something like this, as other laws, it's hard to turn it back and get rid of it, no matter who we vote for next. The people with the strongest voices are these lobbying groups, such as Getup, but most of them represent religious views and those of the older generations, who would easily be scared into thinking that we need internet censorship or else. Last time I checked, Australia was still a democracy, and while *somebody* must have voted for Conroy, we (Australians) still get a say. Even if you voted for him, you don't have too much control over what he does for the 4 years after that. How often do you pop down and visit your local senator for a chat?! I hope the Getup campaign gets enough votes to put this to a halt. Glad we have Getup out there. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dennis Suitters Sent: Thursday, November 27, 2008 5:37 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Fw: The Great Firewall of Australia Yes, real, definitely. But think about it, the government would already, and in some part already do filter information. If they went to the extremes outlined though, don't you think that generally the public (not just the web development community) would put up such a stink about it, the government would be forced into taking several steps back. Unfortunately though, even though the government is supposed to work in the best interests of it's people, they don't in the long run. Blake wrote: On Thu, Nov 27, 2008 at 4:04 PM, Anthony Ziebell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Oh, it's certainly not spam. It's been all over news, whirlpool, everywhere. Yes, it's definitely real. I feel ashamed of being Australian right there. -- Blake Haswell http://www.blakehaswell.com/ | http://blakehaswell.wordpress.com/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Fw: The Great Firewall of Australia
On Thu, 2008-11-27 at 21:19 +1100, nedlud wrote: Okay, so I *should* be concerned about this, in spite of what my common sense tells me. So what can we, as web professionals (in Australia), do about it? I've signed the getup petition. What's the next step? You could _write_ a letter to Senator Conroy, you local MP and all Senators who represent your state. As many politicians aren't that cluey they tend to ignore emails or at least consider them far less important than snailed letters. It costs you less than $5 to print and post letters to the list above - even cheaper if you live in the ACT or NT :) If you feel like it send letters to the PM and leader of the opposition too. Make each letter unique and don't just use an online sample, make it relevant to you. Think about why are you concerned about this, how may it impact _you_? Why are you writing to a particular MP/Senator? Why should they listen to (or read) what you have to say? This gives you some indication of my letter to Senator Conroy - http://tinyurl.com/conroy-letter For my MP it will be similar, but for senators it will be a bit more filter focused. I hope this gives you some inspiration about how you can make your views known. Keep in mind, only emailing the minister and signing an online opinion will register to marks in the against column. Cheers Dave who should finish his letter writing campaign Nedlud. On Thu, Nov 27, 2008 at 9:05 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am hoping that the live testing/trial that will be carried out early next year just shows that this is technically unfeasible. It is quite stupid to be filtering the internet for everyone in Australia, when it is much simpler to be done on each individual PC through the use of software as the previous Liberal government proposed. Andrew, I think you are miss-understanding how Government works: whether something is practical or not is pretty much never a concern unless they have to do the implementation themselves. In this case, it will be the ISP's that are forced to implement it, not the Gov itself. A similar example is in progress in the UK: the Gov have decided to introduce an 'uncrackable' bio-metric ID card for all citizens. They have been told time and again that it will not work, but this all gets outsourced to other companies, so if it fails then they get the blame, and so it goes ahead, against the wishes of pretty much the whole country. Mike *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] the Name attribute
On Thu, 2008-11-27 at 10:18 +, David Dorward wrote:
Brett Patterson wrote:
Where could I find a good information site about the
document.images.imageId script line, please?
http://www.w3.org/TR/1998/REC-DOM-Level-1-19981001/level-one-html.html#ID-26809268
And if you are trying to code using codes such as
http://www.kirupa.com/forum/showthread.php?t=217502
Just an example. A quick search to find.
A quick search can also find out how to use blink tags and tables for
layout. That is a good example of worst practises.
Yes we all know that you should always use
!-- ... --
head
style type=text/css
/* ... */
.blink{
text-decoration: blink;
}
/* ... */
/style
!-- ... --
/head
body
!-- ... --
span class=blinkmy blinking test/span
!-- ... --
/body
instead of
!-- ... --
blinkmy blinking test/blink
!-- ... --
Cheers
Dave
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Re: [WSG] Fw: The Great Firewall of Australia
I wouldn't have sent this to the group if I'd had even the slightest idea it was spam. Getup.org.au is a genuinely good site. IceKat. Brett Patterson wrote: 1) That, I do believe is a crock of shit! 2) If he does anything like that, he will be dead!!! --and-- 3) Anyone who believes in those ideas are fucked up, stupid, and this I can promise, will NOT make it in this world, dead or alive! 4) Like I said, I think this a crock of shit, and possibly spam. On Wed, Nov 26, 2008 at 9:56 PM, IceKat [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, Usually I'm suspicious of this stuff but I happen to know that Get Up is legit and thought the Aussie members of this list might like to know about this. IceKat. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Thought you might be interested Love Mum - Original Message - http://www.getup.org.au/campaign/SaveTheNet?dc=564,324731,1 Dear Helen, Imagine a government proposing an internet censorship system that went further than any other democracy - one that made the internet up to 87% slower, more expensive, accidentally blocked up to one in 12 legitimate sites, and missed the vast majority of inappropriate content. This is not China, Saudi Arabia or Iran - this is the vision of Senator Stephen Conroy for Australia. *Testing has already begun.* The community must now move to stop this plan. *Click here to save the net:* *www.getup.org.au/campaign/SaveTheNet* http://www.getup.org.au/campaign/SaveTheNet?dc=564,324731,1 The system that Senator Conroy wants is *a mandatory filter of all internet traffic*, with the government of the day able to add any unwanted site to a secret blacklist. Already, the wrangling has begun for the inclusion of material relating to anorexia, euthanasia and gambling. It isn't difficult to see *the scheme is open to abuse*. Even when it comes to preventing child p-rnography, the filter will not prevent peer-to-peer sharing and is very simple to sidestep. *The protection of our children is vitally important* - that's why we can't afford to waste funds on this deeply flawed system. We should be concentrating on solutions that are more effective and won't undermine our digital economy or our democratic freedoms. This must rank as one of the most ill-thought decisions of the Rudd Government's first year in power. We need to act now to *tell big brother the mandatory internet filter is incompatible with the principles of a modern democracy and modern economy*: *www.getup.org.au/campaign/SaveTheNet* http://www.getup.org.au/campaign/SaveTheNet?dc=564,324731,1 Our government should be doing all in its power to take Australia into the 21st century economy, and to protect our children. *This proposed internet censorship does neither.* Take action to save the net today. Thanks for being a part of the solution, The GetUp team PS - The proposed scheme will pass all internet traffic through a government filter - it's like asking Australia Post to filter every letter sent in Australia. *Click here to save the net.* http://www.getup.org.au/campaign/SaveTheNet?dc=564,324731,1 __ GetUp is an independent, not-for-profit community campaigning group. We use new technology to empower Australians to have their say on important national issues. We receive no political party or government funding, and every campaign we run is entirely supported by voluntary donations. If you'd like to contribute to *help fund GetUp's work*, please *donate now! https://www.getup.org.au/donate/?dc=564,324731,1* If you have trouble with any links in this email, please go directly to www.getup.org.au http://www.getup.org.au?dc=564,324731,1. To unsubscribe from GetUp, please click here http://www.getup.org.au/pages/emailunsub?dc=564,324731,1. Authorised by Simon Sheikh, Level 2, 294 Pitt St, Sydney NSW 2000tracking No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.10/1812 - Release Date: 11/25/2008 7:53 PM -- Brett P. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Web governance
Andrew, I feel that you have hit one of the Big Problems, and perhaps many feel overwhelmed at its breadth (as do I - I've been pondering it for a few days). Others may have differing views and experiences, but a lack of governance and adherence to standards may be a symptom of corporate immaturity, political power struggles or, unfortunately, ignorance. Other contributing factors may be; • AGIMO’s “suggestions” for best practice not being mandated and • ongoing costs for bespoke development and maintenance of usability, accessibility, corporate branding and systems interoperability. If effectively empowered within the organisation, Information Management should be promoting an integrated, compliant and best practice information environment. It may be an appropriate department to be engaged in this – sitting in the policy area between the executive, auditing, marketing or IT. I hope this gives some food for thought, Peter Hislop - Original Message - From: Andrew R To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 4:13 PM Subject: [WSG] Web governance I realise the list is very much about nuts and bolt of standards. So this might not be the right place for this posting and might be deemed to be ‘off topic’. If it is please ignore! I work in a large (lumbering) Australian federal government agency. My colleges in the web publishing section see developing standards compliant web sites as normal professional practice. However, some other parts of the organisation, mainly ‘traditional’ developers in the IT section, simply don’t get it. The outcome of this is some of the organisation’s web based applications are riddled with problems caused by poor coding practices. These manifest themselves as accessibility issues, difficulties with cross browser compatibility, and significant bottle necks applying updates to branding and presentation. The problems are steadily growing as the organisation builds more and more web interfaces to various applications and systems. To date the web section has taken the approach of trying to work with the developers in the IT area to help them understand the techniques and benefits web standards. However, this has been problematic because there is a lack of more formal mechanisms to enforce compliances. This brings me on to my question for the group. I’m currently looking for web channel governance models suitable for applying in a large public sector organisation that is moving towards significant delivery of services on-line. Can anyone give me some pointers, do have something that works in your organsiation, etc? The few models that I have found are geared at managing inter/intra net sites with a strong emphasis on managing content publishing and how this is used as a communication/marketing tool. For example http://egovau.blogspot.com/2008/07/drawing-lines-effectively-structuring.html. This approach tends to place the Marketing sections as the owner and avoids engagement with an organisation’s IT area. The problem is online services delivery is much bigger then the traditional ‘communications’ business activities, they cut across many parts of the organisation and require complex integration with other systems. Help! Andrew -- Get the best wallpapers on the Web – FREE. Click here! *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] is there a way to force legend text shows in TWO lines?
Hi all, Just to elaborate on this one, has anyone ever found a way to remove the left indent on the legend element in IE? I don't care if I have to add a SPAN inside the LEGEND element, I just want to make sure the text will be left aligned correctly in all browsers. Please send a link if you know a good one! Cheers -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of tee Sent: Thursday, November 27, 2008 2:43 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] is there a way to force legend text shows in TWO lines? On Nov 26, 2008, at 6:15 PM, Ben Buchanan wrote: 2) I have a column that is 160px wide, but the text in legend is a bit longer, I added a span class, declared a width, but in Firefox, the text still refuse to run in two lines - the rest of the text simply get cut off when the words reaches 160px threshold. I really don't want to add a br /, and it will be more ridiculous to use a p tag for the text so that I can force it display exactly the way my client wanted, then use a negative text-indent to hide the legend. Did you set the span to display: block? Yes, that is the first thing I did. No use. Here is a quick page I just did. http://lotusseedsdesign.com/csstest/legend.html tee *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] the Name attribute
Brett Patterson wrote: Where could I find a good information site about the document.images.imageId script line, please? http://www.w3.org/TR/1998/REC-DOM-Level-1-19981001/level-one-html.html#ID-26809268 And if you are trying to code using codes such as http://www.kirupa.com/forum/showthread.php?t=217502 Just an example. A quick search to find. A quick search can also find out how to use blink tags and tables for layout. That is a good example of worst practises. -- David Dorward http://dorward.me.uk/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Fw: The Great Firewall of Australia
I agree with Dave--a letter to Senator Conroy is the best approach. The website previously mentioned (http://nocleanfeed.com/) is also a good place to start if you want to take action. I'm extremely concerned about this plan (and have been since I heard about it a months ago) because at first it seemed like everyone in a position of power thought it was a good idea... despite the fact that their filtering trials clearly showed that a mandatory filter wasn't feasible with the technology currently available. Luckily (and I apologise if this has already been mentioned in a previous email), iiNet--an Australian ISP--has signed up to the live testing that is due to begin mid-December. They have said that they will take part in this test to demonstrate to the government how ineffective an ISP level filter is at the present time. You can check out what they have to say about it on their website: http://www.iinet.net.au/about/news/internet_filtering.html Unfortunately, iiNet have received bad press lately because of a lawsuit brought upon them by the AFACT (Australian Federation Against Copyright Theft--see http://www.lawfont.com/2008/11/21/the-case-against-iinet/ for more info). However, some are saying that this case and iiNet's position on the mandatory filtering scheme are connected (which is why the AFACT went after iiNet and not a larger ISP like Telstra Bigpond), but I'll let you make your own mind up about the link between the two. (See http://defendingscoundrels.com/2008/11/iinet-lawsuit-no-coincidence.html for more.) Don't get me wrong--anything that can stop something that is as horrible as child porn I support. But I honestly do not think this has any chance of working. Please do what you can to help stop this filter going ahead. Otherwise I might need to move countries :( My 2c :) On Thu, Nov 27, 2008 at 10:42 PM, IceKat [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I wouldn't have sent this to the group if I'd had even the slightest idea it was spam. Getup.org.au is a genuinely good site. IceKat. Brett Patterson wrote: 1) That, I do believe is a crock of shit! 2) If he does anything like that, he will be dead!!! --and-- 3) Anyone who believes in those ideas are fucked up, stupid, and this I can promise, will NOT make it in this world, dead or alive! 4) Like I said, I think this a crock of shit, and possibly spam. On Wed, Nov 26, 2008 at 9:56 PM, IceKat [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, Usually I'm suspicious of this stuff but I happen to know that Get Up is legit and thought the Aussie members of this list might like to know about this. IceKat. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Thought you might be interested Love Mum - Original Message - http://www.getup.org.au/campaign/SaveTheNet?dc=564,324731,1 Dear Helen, Imagine a government proposing an internet censorship system that went further than any other democracy - one that made the internet up to 87% slower, more expensive, accidentally blocked up to one in 12 legitimate sites, and missed the vast majority of inappropriate content. This is not China, Saudi Arabia or Iran - this is the vision of Senator Stephen Conroy for Australia. *Testing has already begun.* The community must now move to stop this plan. *Click here to save the net:* *www.getup.org.au/campaign/SaveTheNet* http://www.getup.org.au/campaign/SaveTheNet?dc=564,324731,1 The system that Senator Conroy wants is *a mandatory filter of all internet traffic*, with the government of the day able to add any unwanted site to a secret blacklist. Already, the wrangling has begun for the inclusion of material relating to anorexia, euthanasia and gambling. It isn't difficult to see *the scheme is open to abuse*. Even when it comes to preventing child p-rnography, the filter will not prevent peer-to-peer sharing and is very simple to sidestep. *The protection of our children is vitally important* - that's why we can't afford to waste funds on this deeply flawed system. We should be concentrating on solutions that are more effective and won't undermine our digital economy or our democratic freedoms. This must rank as one of the most ill-thought decisions of the Rudd Government's first year in power. We need to act now to *tell big brother the mandatory internet filter is incompatible with the principles of a modern democracy and modern economy*: *www.getup.org.au/campaign/SaveTheNet* http://www.getup.org.au/campaign/SaveTheNet?dc=564,324731,1 Our government should be
RE: [WSG] Fw: The Great Firewall of Australia
I am hoping that the live testing/trial that will be carried out early next year just shows that this is technically unfeasible. It is quite stupid to be filtering the internet for everyone in Australia, when it is much simpler to be done on each individual PC through the use of software as the previous Liberal government proposed. Andrew, I think you are miss-understanding how Government works: whether something is practical or not is pretty much never a concern unless they have to do the implementation themselves. In this case, it will be the ISP's that are forced to implement it, not the Gov itself. A similar example is in progress in the UK: the Gov have decided to introduce an 'uncrackable' bio-metric ID card for all citizens. They have been told time and again that it will not work, but this all gets outsourced to other companies, so if it fails then they get the blame, and so it goes ahead, against the wishes of pretty much the whole country. Mike *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Standards way of getting div background color?
Use window.getComputedStyle for standard-compliant browsers and
element.currentStyle for IE.
https://developer.mozilla.org/en/DOM/window.getComputedStyle
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms535231(VS.85).aspx
On Thu, Nov 27, 2008 at 12:06, Dennis Suitters [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote:
Dunno, if this has been asked before.
I've been looking wherever I can for a way to get a div's or any element's
background color in a sementic friendly way (ie. works in IE and FF) using
javascript.
so far i've tried the below:
document.getElementById('element').bgColor;
document.getElementById('element').style.backgroundColor;
TIA
--
Алексей
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Re: [WSG] is there a way to force legend text shows in TWO lines?
Hey Paul, 1. almost all browsers left-indent the legend element to some degree. They use different amounts, with IE being slightly different to most other browsers. 2. This may have been mentioned in the thread before but FireFox will not allow the legend element to be positioned at all. However, you can place a span inside the legend and move this. 3. You can use relative positioning or negative margins to move the legend to the left. If the positioning or negative margin is applied to the span within the legend it will work across all browsers. 4. Then the only remaining issue is that IE is still slightly different to other browsers. So, you can use a conditional comment, serve IE a new style sheet, and adjust the amount of relative position or negative margin - and this will only affect IE - no other browser. Why use a conditional comment linking to a new style sheet just for ie? - it means you do not have to do any form of hack, you are simply rewriting a rule - if the browser becomes obsolete in the future you can simply remove the conditional comment and style sheet - no need to hunt back through all of your CSS to find work-arounds. Like anything, everyone has their own opinion and their own solutions - this is just one possibility :) HTH Russ on 28/11/08 12:30 AM, Paul Collins at wrote: Hi all, Just to elaborate on this one, has anyone ever found a way to remove the left indent on the legend element in IE? I don't care if I have to add a SPAN inside the LEGEND element, I just want to make sure the text will be left aligned correctly in all browsers. Please send a link if you know a good one! Cheers *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Fw: The Great Firewall of Australia
Just to add to this, you can monitor Senator Conroy via email updates and message him through the Getup wesbite. http://www.projectdemocracy.com/senator/senator.php?senatorid=15 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jelina Korhecz Sent: Thursday, November 27, 2008 12:50 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Fw: The Great Firewall of Australia I agree with Dave--a letter to Senator Conroy is the best approach. The website previously mentioned (http://nocleanfeed.com/) is also a good place to start if you want to take action. I'm extremely concerned about this plan (and have been since I heard about it a months ago) because at first it seemed like everyone in a position of power thought it was a good idea... despite the fact that their filtering trials clearly showed that a mandatory filter wasn't feasible with the technology currently available. Luckily (and I apologise if this has already been mentioned in a previous email), iiNet--an Australian ISP--has signed up to the live testing that is due to begin mid-December. They have said that they will take part in this test to demonstrate to the government how ineffective an ISP level filter is at the present time. You can check out what they have to say about it on their website: http://www.iinet.net.au/about/news/internet_filtering.html Unfortunately, iiNet have received bad press lately because of a lawsuit brought upon them by the AFACT (Australian Federation Against Copyright Theft--see http://www.lawfont.com/2008/11/21/the-case-against-iinet/ for more info). However, some are saying that this case and iiNet's position on the mandatory filtering scheme are connected (which is why the AFACT went after iiNet and not a larger ISP like Telstra Bigpond), but I'll let you make your own mind up about the link between the two. (See http://defendingscoundrels.com/2008/11/iinet-lawsuit-no-coincidence.html for more.) Don't get me wrong--anything that can stop something that is as horrible as child porn I support. But I honestly do not think this has any chance of working. Please do what you can to help stop this filter going ahead. Otherwise I might need to move countries :( My 2c :) On Thu, Nov 27, 2008 at 10:42 PM, IceKat [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I wouldn't have sent this to the group if I'd had even the slightest idea it was spam. Getup.org.au is a genuinely good site. IceKat. Brett Patterson wrote: 1) That, I do believe is a crock of shit! 2) If he does anything like that, he will be dead!!! --and-- 3) Anyone who believes in those ideas are fucked up, stupid, and this I can promise, will NOT make it in this world, dead or alive! 4) Like I said, I think this a crock of shit, and possibly spam. On Wed, Nov 26, 2008 at 9:56 PM, IceKat [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, Usually I'm suspicious of this stuff but I happen to know that Get Up is legit and thought the Aussie members of this list might like to know about this. IceKat. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Thought you might be interested Love Mum - Original Message - http://www.getup.org.au/campaign/SaveTheNet?dc=564,324731,1 Dear Helen, Imagine a government proposing an internet censorship system that went further than any other democracy - one that made the internet up to 87% slower, more expensive, accidentally blocked up to one in 12 legitimate sites, and missed the vast majority of inappropriate content. This is not China, Saudi Arabia or Iran - this is the vision of Senator Stephen Conroy for Australia. *Testing has already begun.* The community must now move to stop this plan. *Click here to save the net:* *www.getup.org.au/campaign/SaveTheNet* http://www.getup.org.au/campaign/SaveTheNet?dc=564,324731,1 The system that Senator Conroy wants is *a mandatory filter of all internet traffic*, with the government of the day able to add any unwanted site to a secret blacklist. Already, the wrangling has begun for the inclusion of material relating to anorexia, euthanasia and gambling. It isn't difficult to see *the scheme is open to abuse*. Even when it comes to preventing child p-rnography, the filter will not prevent peer-to-peer sharing and is very simple to sidestep. *The protection of our children is vitally important* - that's why we can't afford to waste funds on this deeply flawed system. We should be concentrating on solutions that are more effective and won't undermine our digital economy or our
Re: [WSG] Fw: The Great Firewall of Australia
Okay, so I *should* be concerned about this, in spite of what my common sense tells me. So what can we, as web professionals (in Australia), do about it? I've signed the getup petition. What's the next step? Nedlud. On Thu, Nov 27, 2008 at 9:05 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am hoping that the live testing/trial that will be carried out early next year just shows that this is technically unfeasible. It is quite stupid to be filtering the internet for everyone in Australia, when it is much simpler to be done on each individual PC through the use of software as the previous Liberal government proposed. Andrew, I think you are miss-understanding how Government works: whether something is practical or not is pretty much never a concern unless they have to do the implementation themselves. In this case, it will be the ISP's that are forced to implement it, not the Gov itself. A similar example is in progress in the UK: the Gov have decided to introduce an 'uncrackable' bio-metric ID card for all citizens. They have been told time and again that it will not work, but this all gets outsourced to other companies, so if it fails then they get the blame, and so it goes ahead, against the wishes of pretty much the whole country. Mike *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Web governance
Return Receipt Your Re: [WSG] Web governance document: wasLisa Kerrigan/StateDevPolicy/DSD received by: at:28/11/2008 09:23:17 AM * Department of Innovation, Industry and Regional Development,Government of Victoria, Victoria, Australia. This e-mail and any attachments may contain privileged and confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient, you may not distribute reproduce this e-mail the attachments. If you have received this message in error, please notify us by return e-mail. *- *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Web governance
Return Receipt Your Re: [WSG] Web governance document: wasBrendan Halloran/BusServices/DSD received by: at:28/11/2008 09:37:33 AM * Department of Innovation, Industry and Regional Development,Government of Victoria, Victoria, Australia. This e-mail and any attachments may contain privileged and confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient, you may not distribute reproduce this e-mail the attachments. If you have received this message in error, please notify us by return e-mail. *- *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] too much accessibility - fieldset and legends
Hi Steven, thanks for the two links. I am replying in a new thread because, after reading the Too much accessibility - FIELDSET LEGENDS, I feel that it deserves to open a new thread for a new, hopefully more thorough discussion on Fieldset and Legend, and maybe to have a closer exmination that these two attributes are like the tabindex, accesskeys and titles, more harmful than useful. The article was over 2 years old, while I am in full agreement with these: The right way is to choose LEGEND text that is: • Concise: between 1 and 6 words. • Relevant: to every single form field in the FIELDSET. • Seamless: in that the words chosen for the LEGEND should make sense when joined to each label phrase. This might take a bit more explanation, so read on and you’ll see why. W3C said: The LEGEND element allows authors to assign a caption to a FIELDSET No way in my right mind that I would ever think the legend will be read out by each set of label atrribute repetitive. Quote BIM: I don’t see that the W3c intention and the JAWS screen reader implementation are necessarily at odds; JAWS has a “duty” to keep users informed that they are in the same group, and this is one way of achieving it. Has a duty as being overly helpful that turns to absurdity and annoyance? Does BIM a memebr here too? I am sorry, but I think his logic and reason are at fault. An annoyance is an annoyance whether the legend is one word or 10 words long. One word of legend text, if repeated 10 times to me over and over on every page I visit. It's an annoyance. This leads me to take a closer look on how I use the fieldset and legend; at a closer examination, I think I am going to remove fieldset and legend in that 'get shipping estimation' form and I will stop using fieldset and legend in forms that contain only a few inputs/ checkboxes/radio button. tee *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] too much accessibility - fieldset and legends
tee wrote: Quote BIM: I don’t see that the W3c intention and the JAWS screen reader implementation are necessarily at odds; JAWS has a “duty” to keep users informed that they are in the same group, and this is one way of achieving it. Has a duty as being overly helpful that turns to absurdity and annoyance? Absurdity only if you're not wise about the length/wording of your legend text. Annoyance...that's surely up to screenreader users to decide for themselves? Unless you've got feedback from actual screenreader users stating that it's annoying, it sounds a touch patronising as a sighted developer to call the feature annoying. Does BIM a memebr here too? I am sorry, but I think his logic and reason are at fault. Is it relevant to this discussion that Bim is actually a blind screenreader user herself? An annoyance is an annoyance whether the legend is one word or 10 words long. One word of legend text, if repeated 10 times to me over and over on every page I visit. It's an annoyance. But is it an annoyance to somebody who can't actually see your form and has to rely on auditory cues to know where they are within the form? P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Co-lead, Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] too much accessibility - fieldset and legends
On Nov 27, 2008, at 3:47 PM, Patrick H. Lauke wrote: tee wrote: Quote BIM: I don’t see that the W3c intention and the JAWS screen reader implementation are necessarily at odds; JAWS has a “duty” to keep users informed that they are in the same group, and this is one way of achieving it. Has a duty as being overly helpful that turns to absurdity and annoyance? Absurdity only if you're not wise about the length/wording of your legend text. Well, Patrick, this is obviously a subjective point of view and can easily turns to a petty argument, so I will just skip it :) Annoyance...that's surely up to screenreader users to decide for themselves? Unless you've got feedback from actual screenreader users stating that it's annoying, it sounds a touch patronising as a sighted developer to call the feature annoying. Will one's background and culture influence how one views at an issue? When I was a kid, I routinely help walked an old wise blind man to park, shop and his friend's home. He taught me how to 'see' the surroundings around me; decades later I looked back, I realized he helped me developed my sensitivity and guided me see things in different ways that my sighted eyes wouldn't have seen. Accessibility to me, is all about people oriented (with am eastern philoshopy touch) and common sense; Mankind is the center of the universe way of 'People oriented' is not my idea of accessibility. I studied Laozi (Tao De Jing) and Zhuangzi (the famous dream of the butterfly) long before I touched any western philosophical and design theories - therefor, in a nutshell, anything that is overly done, is un-natured thus creating conflict (annoyance) between people and the 'objects', despite the good intention. Back to the people oriented: Accessibility to me is about problem solving through design and user interface hence create a good user experience. Though I have never gotten any feedback from actual screenreader users and I honestly haven't gotten many interactions with blind people, but I speak to common sense and follow nature. Common sense tells me that we human are highly adaptive; the creator gave us 5 senses: hearing, sight, taste, touch and smell. If we lose any one of the senses, another 4 will adapt, and develops even better, sharper, more sensitive' 'ability' that people who have 5 normal senses likely wouldn't have developed. A good user interface is one that harmonize/reduces conflict between the 'software/hardware/machine' and the user that makes one feels comfortable, relax and ease of use, the same goes to a good design. As I gradually learning more about Accessibility guideline and have actually paid more attention to it, I feel I will have better chance to create more accessible sites using common sense than relying on dead theory and data through user study other shows me (note, I am not saying user study isn't important) Does BIM a memebr here too? I am sorry, but I think his logic and reason are at fault. Is it relevant to this discussion that Bim is actually a blind screenreader user herself? Well, somewhat. But I still think her logic and reason are a bit at fault. I insist because I think she maybe only viewing the issue on the surface, that is, People-oreiented yet lack the basic knowledge of 'people' , and I am afraid as a blind person (no insulted intention here), her logic fell short for other blind people. I have no doubt it is helpful to screen reader users for screen reader to implement read legend text on every label set, but if a screen reader makes it a Default, it is arrogant, lack of common sense, not helping at all but create conflict to its users and it's a Bad interface design. Common sense tells me it maybe a bit intimidating for a blind person to use Screen reader the first few times; common sense also tells me unless that person also suffers other disability that affects his/her ability on memory, or maybe, with a rarely and extreme possibility that a Screen Reader that didn't implement 'read legend text on every label set' causes psychological traumatic effect to the user (should this be the case, he/she probably needs special medical treatment and use of Screen Reader is probably not recommended or not permitted by doctor). I believe, most Screen reader users are just like you and me, use a software base on the common knowledge on how things works and our intelligence to able to tell what's a page about based on the first few words or sentence. Let me repeat: If we lose any one of the senses, another 4 will adapt, and develop even better, sharper, more sensitive' 'ability' that people who have 5 normal senses likely wouldn't have developed. That being said, it's highly unlikely for a Screen Reader user to realize when a form begins and when a form ends when the screen reader read out the first label set. Make no
[WSG] Ian IR SHORTLAND is out of the office.
I will be out of the office starting 28/11/2008 and will not return until 29/11/2008. For e-Reference assistance during my absence, contact Cathy Goodwin (Team Leader) on 316911 or Jason Dunn (Publishing) on 334416. ** IMPORTANT: This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is confidential, commercially valuable or subject to legal or parliamentary privilege. If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any review, re-transmission, disclosure, use or dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited by several Commonwealth Acts of Parliament. If you have received this communication in error please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments. ** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] the Name attribute
What Dave?
On Thu, Nov 27, 2008 at 6:04 AM, Dave Hall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Thu, 2008-11-27 at 10:18 +, David Dorward wrote:
Brett Patterson wrote:
Where could I find a good information site about the
document.images.imageId script line, please?
http://www.w3.org/TR/1998/REC-DOM-Level-1-19981001/level-one-html.html#ID-26809268
And if you are trying to code using codes such as
http://www.kirupa.com/forum/showthread.php?t=217502
Just an example. A quick search to find.
A quick search can also find out how to use blink tags and tables for
layout. That is a good example of worst practises.
Yes we all know that you should always use
!-- ... --
head
style type=text/css
/* ... */
.blink{
text-decoration: blink;
}
/* ... */
/style
!-- ... --
/head
body
!-- ... --
span class=blinkmy blinking test/span
!-- ... --
/body
instead of
!-- ... --
blinkmy blinking test/blink
!-- ... --
Cheers
Dave
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--
Brett P.
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Re: [WSG] Web governance
Return Receipt Your Re: [WSG] Web governance document: wasMark Greed/NSO/CSDA received by: at:28/11/2008 17:03:24 ** IMPORTANT: This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is confidential, commercially valuable or subject to legal or parliamentary privilege. If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any review, re-transmission, disclosure, use or dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited by several Commonwealth Acts of Parliament. If you have received this communication in error please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments. ** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
