Re: [WSG] WSG: Best Practice "Page/Content Tools" [SEC=UNOFFICIAL]

[David Hucklesby]

On 2/26/12 2:06 PM, Blumer, Luke wrote:

Hi all,

I have been looking at sites that contain a selection of tools for
content, generally looking after print, email, and text size, shown
in the below site.

http://www.educationtaxrefund.gov.au/



I'm not sure why you'd need that - assuming visitors even notice or
bother to investigate those buttons. Please don't emulate it too
closely. A "bigger" text size of 15px still looks tiny on my laptop. :(

You can give this functionality to everyone using CSS and a normal email
link - even when scripting is blocked.

Personally, I'm considering using a size that defaults to 20px body text
at the fairly usual 96 DPI desktop setting. (i.e. 125%.) I got used to
that size on my previous laptop that was set to 120 DPI. On a 14 inch
screen, 1400px by 1050px, it seemed right.
--
Cordially,
David



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Re: [WSG] WSG: Best Practice "Page/Content Tools" [SEC=UNOFFICIAL]

[Mathew Robertson]

I'm going to stick my neck out ;)

The icons are simply features that a producer may want to implement or not
(the browser already provides the necessary features), except for the email
link.

The email link is clearly not accessible... A document parser could
automatically collate the "mailto" references, but not when there isn't any
mailto target.

Otherwise, the site itself is reasonably well implemented.

cheers,
Mathew Robertson

On 27 February 2012 09:06, Blumer, Luke  wrote:

> **
>
> Hi all,
>
> I have been looking at sites that contain a selection of tools for
> content, generally looking after print, email, and text size, shown in the
> below site.
>
> *http://www.educationtaxrefund.gov.au/*
>
> Does anyone know what this function is called? Or where I could find
> information, if there is any, on best practice for implementing these
> functions in a website? Are these button functions even required
> considering that modern browsers enable you to perform all these actions
> natively?
>
> Regards,
>
> Luke Blumer
>
> **
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[WSG] WSG: Best Practice "Page/Content Tools" [SEC=UNOFFICIAL]

[Blumer, Luke]

Hi all,

I have been looking at sites that contain a selection of tools for
content, generally looking after print, email, and text size, shown in
the below site. 

http://www.educationtaxrefund.gov.au/

Does anyone know what this function is called? Or where I could find
information, if there is any, on best practice for implementing these
functions in a website? Are these button functions even required
considering that modern browsers enable you to perform all these actions
natively?

Regards,

Luke Blumer

**
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[WSG] Best Practice - Content Within Tables

[Olya . Melnikov]

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Re: [WSG] Best Practice - Content Within Tables

[Tedd Sperling]

On Oct 14, 2011, at 2:42 PM, Lapcewich, Dennis wrote:

> Thanks to all who responded, and confirmed my initial view.
>  
> My reason for asking the obvious is that within a government agency, we seem 
> to have an excess of pickers of nits (often outside of the actual expertise) 
> who just won’t take no for an answer.  The views offered here gave me several 
> different ways to say the same thing.  On top of this, we are using an 
> archaic CMS system (directed to use by those above us) that does not lend 
> itself well to best practices.   I really did need those 1,000 different 
> methods to change the light bulb because of the low wattage dim wits that 
> often try to brighten my day with their bug light prowess (BZa!).  J
>  
> Thanks all!
>  
> Dennis
>  
> Dennis Lapcewich
> US Forest Service Webmaster

You do have one thing going for you and that is accessibility. If the CMS you 
are required to use does not permit "best" practices re accessibility, then 
push that button. Those above you will most certainly not want to be labeled as 
being insensitive to the disabled, right?

Government web sites should led the way in accessibility compliance, but 
unfortunately they don't. If you think the US Forest Service has problems with 
their web sites, take a look at the VA websites.

Cheers,

tedd


_
t...@sperling.com
http://sperling.com







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Re: [WSG] Best Practice - Content Within Tables

[David Dorward]

On 12 Oct 2011, at 20:58, Lapcewich, Dennis wrote:
> Is it a best practice to wrap content in a table cell using  tags?

It is best practise to wrap paragraphs in a P element. If you have paragraphs 
in your table data (which is relatively rare, but still possible), then you 
should use P elements.

-- 
David Dorward
http://dorward.me.uk



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Re: [WSG] Best Practice - Content Within Tables

[Hassan Schroeder]

On 10/12/11 12:58 PM, Lapcewich, Dennis wrote:


Is it a best practice to wrap content in a table cell using  tags?


I'd say no, never. Each cell should contain exactly what's contained
in the corresponding DB field. If it's text, it might well *contain*
paragraph tags, or not. If it's a string, it *might* be wrapped in a
span, though probably not.

Regardless, there's no reason to include arbitrary formatting that's
irrelevant/orthogonal to the datatypes.

And if the data isn't coming from a database, either it shouldn't be
in a table or you should be writing the markup as if it were. IMO.

YMMV :-)
--
Hassan Schroeder - has...@webtuitive.com
webtuitive design ===  (+1) 408-621-3445   === http://webtuitive.com
http://about.me/hassanschroeder
twitter: @hassan
  dream.  code.


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[WSG] Best Practice - Content Within Tables

[Karen . Conyers]

Return Receipt
   
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   document:   
   
   wasKaren Conyers/ACT/IMMI/AU
   received
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   at:13/10/2011 07:54:29 AM   
   





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Re: [WSG] Best Practice - Content Within Tables

[dj]

Wrapping table cell content in a p tag adds unneccessary padding and  
code. Unless you have a good reason, such as multiple paragraphs  
within a table cell, I would avoid the extra code. If you have  
multiple paragraphs, then you might want to adjust the css so you  
don't have extra space (the table cell padding in addition to the  
paragraph padding).


Debbie Johnson

Quoting "Lapcewich, Dennis" :


Folks,

I'm seeking some best practices advice.

Is it a best practice to wrap content in a table cell using   
tags?  Or just properly code the  and/or  tags?  We have a  
couple of schools of thought raging at the moment and I've been  
tasked to seek the wisdom of others.


Dennis



Dennis Lapcewich
US Forest Service Webmaster
DRM Civil Rights POC / USFS 508 Taskforce
Pacific Northwest Region - Vancouver, WA
Voice - 360.891.5024 | Fax - 360.891.5045
Email - dlapcew...@fs.fed.us

"The trouble with quotes on the Internet is that you can never know  
if they are genuine." -- Ben Franklin, 1706-1790






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RE: [WSG] Best Practice - Content Within Tables

[Dan Freeman]

Tables are used to present data.  So I think it makes perfect sense to
simply put the data in the cells, and not wrap them in  tags.  Would
there be a reason to have a table of paragraphs?

 

Dan Freeman

e-Commerce Manager

800.650.6506 (TOLL FREE)

330.655.0341 (DIRECT)

www.lexi.com <http://www.lexi.com/> 

 

lexicomp-email-sig

 

From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On
Behalf Of Lapcewich, Dennis
Sent: Wednesday, October 12, 2011 3:58 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] Best Practice - Content Within Tables

 

Folks,

 

I'm seeking some best practices advice.  

 

Is it a best practice to wrap content in a table cell using  tags?  Or
just properly code the  and/or  tags?  We have a couple of schools
of thought raging at the moment and I've been tasked to seek the wisdom of
others.

 

Dennis

 

 

 

Dennis Lapcewich

US Forest Service Webmaster

DRM Civil Rights POC / USFS 508 Taskforce

Pacific Northwest Region - Vancouver, WA

Voice - 360.891.5024 | Fax - 360.891.5045

Email - dlapcew...@fs.fed.us

 

"The trouble with quotes on the Internet is that you can never know if
they are genuine." -- Ben Franklin, 1706-1790

 

 

 


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[WSG] Best Practice - Content Within Tables

[Lapcewich, Dennis]

Folks,

I'm seeking some best practices advice.

Is it a best practice to wrap content in a table cell using  tags?  Or just 
properly code the  and/or  tags?  We have a couple of schools of 
thought raging at the moment and I've been tasked to seek the wisdom of others.

Dennis



Dennis Lapcewich
US Forest Service Webmaster
DRM Civil Rights POC / USFS 508 Taskforce
Pacific Northwest Region - Vancouver, WA
Voice - 360.891.5024 | Fax - 360.891.5045
Email - dlapcew...@fs.fed.us

"The trouble with quotes on the Internet is that you can never know if they are 
genuine." -- Ben Franklin, 1706-1790





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Re: [OBORONA-SPAM] RE: [WSG] Best Practice to Offer Different Formats of Documents

[Keryx Web]

Alexey Novikov skrev:

I use this pattern:
Title_of_This_Lengthy_Document, PDF, 1234kb



I would suggest putting the abbreviation PDF and the size inside the 
a-element if anyone tabs from link to link with JAWS or anything similar.



or with icon:
Title_of_This_Lengthy_Document, PDF, 1234kb


I probably would have this image in CSS, aligned right or left and then 
add some padding right/left as well for it to show up. Now that IE7 
supports attribute selectors most users will see it.


If not I would go for an empty alt-attribute, since the purpose of the 
link is clear from the text.



Lars Gunther


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Re: [OBORONA-SPAM] RE: [WSG] Best Practice to Offer Different Formats of Documents

[Alexey Novikov]

K> On 2/16/08, Joe Ortenzi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
K> Icons also help people make quick choices and allow you to provide
K> the documents in a tabular format when required.

K> Title of This Lengthy Document [PDF ICON] title="download the PDF:
K> Title_of_This_Lengthy_Document" [MSWORD ICON] title="download the
K> Word Document: Title_of_This_Lengthy_Document"

I use this pattern:
Title_of_This_Lengthy_Document, PDF, 1234kb

or with icon:
Title_of_This_Lengthy_Document, PDF, 1234kb


Regards,
Alexey Novikov



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RE: [WSG] Best Practice to Offer Different Formats of Documents

[Kevin]

Thank you to both you and Joe! Good info!!!

   _  

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of dwain
Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2008 4:01 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Best Practice to Offer Different Formats of Documents




On 2/16/08, Joe Ortenzi mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]"[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:


Icons also help people make quick choices and allow you to provide the
documents in a tabular format when required. 

Title of This Lengthy Document [PDF ICON] title="download the PDF:
Title_of_This_Lengthy_Document" [MSWORD ICON] title="download the Word
Document: Title_of_This_Lengthy_Document"


i also put the size of the document next to the link.  this way the visitor
know what's coming in the download or the view, because to view a pdf it has
to be downloaded first and then opened and by notifying the visitor of the
size of the document gives them another choice whether to download, view or
by pass the document.
dwain

-- 
dwain alford
"The artist may use any form which his expression demands;
for his inner impulse must find suitable expression."  Kandinsky 
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Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.20.7/1283 - Release Date: 2/16/2008
2:16 PM



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Re: [WSG] Best Practice to Offer Different Formats of Documents

[Thomas Thomassen]

True. Dean Edwards got a very good library to aid IE: 
http://dean.edwards.name/IE7/
  - Original Message - 
  From: Andrew Cunningham 
  To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org 
  Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2008 12:49 PM
  Subject: Re: [WSG] Best Practice to Offer Different Formats of Documents



  On Sun, February 17, 2008 10:02 pm, Thomas Thomassen wrote:
  > Yes, IE doesn't handle attribute selectors.
  > 

  There are always javascript workarounds for attribute selectors in IE.

  > However, I'd still be tempted to use it. The only thing that happens is
  > that
  > IE6 doesn't display the icons. Graceful degradation. Users with newer
  > browsers will get a better experience, but it'll still work with the older
  > browsers.
  > 



  -- 
  Andrew Cunningham
  Research and Development Coordinator
  Vicnet
  State Library of Victoria
  Australia

  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
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Re: [WSG] Best Practice to Offer Different Formats of Documents

[Andrew Cunningham]

 


On Sun, February 17, 2008 10:02 pm, Thomas Thomassen wrote:
> Yes, IE doesn't handle attribute selectors.
> 

There are always javascript workarounds for attribute selectors in
IE.

> However, I'd still be tempted to use it. The only
thing that happens is
> that
> IE6 doesn't display the
icons. Graceful degradation. Users with newer
> browsers will get
a better experience, but it'll still work with the older
>
browsers.
> 



-- 
Andrew Cunningham
Research and Development Coordinator
Vicnet
State Library of
Victoria
Australia

[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: [WSG] Best Practice to Offer Different Formats of Documents

[Thomas Thomassen]

Yes, IE doesn't handle attribute selectors.

However, I'd still be tempted to use it. The only thing that happens is that 
IE6 doesn't display the icons. Graceful degradation. Users with newer 
browsers will get a better experience, but it'll still work with the older 
browsers.



- Original Message - 
From: "Designer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: 
Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2008 10:56 AM
Subject: Re: [WSG] Best Practice to Offer Different Formats of Documents



Matt Fellows wrote:


There is a nice article [1] that can show you how to automatically
style links with little icons depending on the extension of the file
it points to if you are interested.

Cheers,

Matt

[1] - 
http://www.askthecssguy.com/2006/12/showing_hyperlink_cues_with_cs_1.html





Hi Matt,  I was intrigued by the simplicity of your use of:

a[href $='.pdf'] {
   padding-right: 18px;
   background: transparent url(../../sitegraphics/outofit.gif) no-repeat 
center right;

}

etc., but when I checked it in my (standalone) IE6, it failed. Is that to 
be expected? (standalone IE6 gives 'funny' results sometimes).  If so, 
it's dead as a useful tool for me.


Bob
www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk




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Re: [WSG] Best Practice to Offer Different Formats of Documents

[Max A. Shpack]

that's because IE6 doesn't support attribute selectors. but you can
use classes instead.

Max.

2008/2/17, Designer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> Matt Fellows wrote:
>
> > There is a nice article [1] that can show you how to automatically
> > style links with little icons depending on the extension of the file
> > it points to if you are interested.
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Matt
> >
> > [1] - 
> > http://www.askthecssguy.com/2006/12/showing_hyperlink_cues_with_cs_1.html
> >
>
>
> Hi Matt,  I was intrigued by the simplicity of your use of:
>
> a[href $='.pdf'] {
>padding-right: 18px;
>background: transparent url(../../sitegraphics/outofit.gif)
> no-repeat center right;
> }
>
> etc., but when I checked it in my (standalone) IE6, it failed. Is that
> to be expected? (standalone IE6 gives 'funny' results sometimes).  If
> so, it's dead as a useful tool for me.
>
> Bob
> www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk
>
>
>
>
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Re: [WSG] Best Practice to Offer Different Formats of Documents

[Designer]

Matt Fellows wrote:


There is a nice article [1] that can show you how to automatically
style links with little icons depending on the extension of the file
it points to if you are interested.

Cheers,

Matt

[1] - http://www.askthecssguy.com/2006/12/showing_hyperlink_cues_with_cs_1.html




Hi Matt,  I was intrigued by the simplicity of your use of:

a[href $='.pdf'] {
   padding-right: 18px;
   background: transparent url(../../sitegraphics/outofit.gif) 
no-repeat center right;

}

etc., but when I checked it in my (standalone) IE6, it failed. Is that 
to be expected? (standalone IE6 gives 'funny' results sometimes).  If 
so, it's dead as a useful tool for me.


Bob
www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk




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Re: [WSG] Best Practice to Offer Different Formats of Documents

[Joe Ortenzi]

Dwain, Matt

Sorry forgot to mention I also getfilesize in php for reasons Dwain  
mentioned and I have created simple functions like the one he  
mentions, with a pool of file icons to display with. Sorry for not  
mentioning these.

Joe

On Feb 17 2008, at 00:27, Matt Fellows wrote:


As Joe said, I also think icons are a great way for users to quickly
scan the page and get a sense of what is going on.

There is a nice article [1] that can show you how to automatically
style links with little icons depending on the extension of the file
it points to if you are interested.

Cheers,

Matt

[1] - http://www.askthecssguy.com/2006/12/ 
showing_hyperlink_cues_with_cs_1.html


On 2/16/08, dwain <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:



On 2/16/08, Joe Ortenzi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


Icons also help people make quick choices and allow you to  
provide the

documents in a tabular format when required.



Title of This Lengthy Document [PDF ICON] title="download the PDF:

Title_of_This_Lengthy_Document" [MSWORD ICON]
title="download the Word Document:
Title_of_This_Lengthy_Document"



i also put the size of the document next to the link.  this way  
the visitor
know what's coming in the download or the view, because to view a  
pdf it has
to be downloaded first and then opened and by notifying the  
visitor of the
size of the document gives them another choice whether to  
download, view or

by pass the document.
 dwain

--
dwain alford
"The artist may use any form which his expression demands;
for his inner impulse must find suitable expression."  Kandinsky

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Joe Ortenzi
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Re: [WSG] Best Practice to Offer Different Formats of Documents

[Matt Fellows]

As Joe said, I also think icons are a great way for users to quickly
scan the page and get a sense of what is going on.

There is a nice article [1] that can show you how to automatically
style links with little icons depending on the extension of the file
it points to if you are interested.

Cheers,

Matt

[1] - http://www.askthecssguy.com/2006/12/showing_hyperlink_cues_with_cs_1.html

On 2/16/08, dwain <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
> On 2/16/08, Joe Ortenzi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > Icons also help people make quick choices and allow you to provide the
> documents in a tabular format when required.
> >
> >
> > Title of This Lengthy Document [PDF ICON] title="download the PDF:
> Title_of_This_Lengthy_Document" [MSWORD ICON]
> title="download the Word Document:
> Title_of_This_Lengthy_Document"
> >
> >
> i also put the size of the document next to the link.  this way the visitor
> know what's coming in the download or the view, because to view a pdf it has
> to be downloaded first and then opened and by notifying the visitor of the
> size of the document gives them another choice whether to download, view or
> by pass the document.
>  dwain
>
> --
> dwain alford
> "The artist may use any form which his expression demands;
> for his inner impulse must find suitable expression."  Kandinsky
>
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Re: [WSG] Best Practice to Offer Different Formats of Documents

[dwain]

On 2/16/08, Joe Ortenzi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Icons also help people make quick choices and allow you to provide the
> documents in a tabular format when required.
> Title of This Lengthy Document [PDF ICON] title="download the
> PDF: Title_of_This_Lengthy_Document" [MSWORD ICON] title="download the
> Word Document: Title_of_This_Lengthy_Document"
>
> i also put the size of the document next to the link.  this way the
visitor know what's coming in the download or the view, because to view a
pdf it has to be downloaded first and then opened and by notifying the
visitor of the size of the document gives them another choice whether to
download, view or by pass the document.
dwain

-- 
dwain alford
"The artist may use any form which his expression demands;
for his inner impulse must find suitable expression."  Kandinsky


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Re: [WSG] Best Practice to Offer Different Formats of Documents

[Joe Ortenzi]

Don't know about best practice but I can tell you about ways I  
approached it in the past and how I like it when I come to a page  
with the options you offer.


I usually put helpful information in the title attribute of a link,  
so a "new window" link includes : "..to open x in a new window"  
and a download says something like "right-click to download the word  
document  to your desktop"


I am assuming the file names are formatted something like:

Title_of_This_Lengthy_Document.pdf
Title_of_This_Lengthy_Document.doc

Icons also help people make quick choices and allow you to provide  
the documents in a tabular format when required.


Title of This Lengthy Document		[PDF ICON] title="download the PDF:  
Title_of_This_Lengthy_Document"	[MSWORD ICON] title="download the  
Word Document: Title_of_This_Lengthy_Document"


Personally I take the position that Word and PDF serve completely  
different roles and should not always be available together.


PDF - good for delivery where you need to control file size, fonts,  
layout and do not want the recipient to edit the document digitally.
MSWord - good for delivery of text content you want to allow the  
recipient to edit, or easily copy into another text editing application.
In this instance I make sure the word doc is as simple as possible,  
and is minimally formatted, preferably as an rtf.


Joe

On Feb 15 2008, at 13:10, kevin.erickson wrote:


Hi,

Can anyone tell me what they think the best practice is for
have a web page with link to a Word document and also a PDF?
Some of my pages have multiple subjects with data in both
Word and PDF. So a typical list might be:

Title (PDF) Also available in Word.
Title (PDF) Also available in Word.

In the sample list above "Title" links to the PDF document
and "Word" links to the Word document. Each link will have a
title attribute. Is there a better or more common way to
offer multiple formats for a document?


Thanks in advance,

Kevin

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Date: 2/14/2008 10:28 AM




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[WSG] Best Practice to Offer Different Formats of Documents

[kevin.erickson]

Hi,

Can anyone tell me what they think the best practice is for
have a web page with link to a Word document and also a PDF?
Some of my pages have multiple subjects with data in both
Word and PDF. So a typical list might be:

Title (PDF) Also available in Word.
Title (PDF) Also available in Word.

In the sample list above "Title" links to the PDF document
and "Word" links to the Word document. Each link will have a
title attribute. Is there a better or more common way to
offer multiple formats for a document? 


Thanks in advance,

Kevin

No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition. 
Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.20.5/1278 - Release
Date: 2/14/2008 10:28 AM
 



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Re: [WSG] Best practice embedding a Quicktime/Flash video

[Micky Hulse]

David Little wrote:

These solutions are interesting, but I'm only willing to spend time
looking at them if:


Seems like you are over-thinking it.

swfObject or UFO.

I personally prefer the latter mostly due to reasons I stated before 
(cms... needing access to certain params for dynamic setup.) But both do 
the job extremely well.


For swfObject (I assume UFO too), you can put anything you want in the 
alt div.


Check out this site:



View source and find #header... They opted to put a  menu in the alt 
div due to the default menu being Flash based. They also you a screen 
grab of the flash movie... It is pretty seamless... Use the web dev 
toolbar for FF and turn off JS.


Trust us. This is easy. Your page will validate. Move on with your life.

:)

Cheers,
Micky


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Re: [WSG] Best practice embedding a Quicktime/Flash video

[David Little]

These solutions are interesting, but I'm only willing to spend time
looking at them if:

* Users without Javascript but with Flash can still view the movies
* I can integrate them with my CMS (Plone) -- I'll need to generate
the code dynamically
* I don't have to litter the  with Javascript snippets
* My page validation doesn't break as a result.

I've only given them a cursory glance so far, so with any luck they
will fulfil these criteria, although I notice that UFO injects 
tags via Javascript.

Thanks for the heads up about these -- if I had the time I'd love to
compare all the different methods. Maybe I can after this project's
finished ;-)

David



On 30/06/07, Tate Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

On 29/06/2007, at 6:52 PM, David Little wrote:

>> I see your point here. The only thing I wonder about, and forgive me
>> if I am just in need of more coffee here, but what does a user get if
>> they *choose* not use Flash? Is alt-content handled?
>
> It shows my limited knowledge of this area that I wasn't aware that
> you could put your alternative content within the  tag --
> that's going to be very useful. This seems to be the best way forward
> for me at present with my limited time frame without relying on
> Javascript libraries.
>

The problem with using the  tag to embed content such as
flash presents some problems in IE7. By default, these controls are
"disabled" and users must click the object to "activate" it. This is
the result of a company that held a patent on embedding content, and
took MS to court over it. However, the patent doesn't include
embedding inline objects (Such as using javascript to embed flash).

I'd strongly encourage you to check out SWFObject. It's quick and
easy to implement. You can also provide alternate content for users
without flash or javascript. That said, the object tag *does* support
alternate content as well.

SWFobject --> http://blog.deconcept.com/swfobject/

- Tate


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Re: [WSG] Best practice embedding a Quicktime/Flash video

[Sander Aarts]

Tate Johnson schreef:

On 29/06/2007, at 6:52 PM, David Little wrote:


It shows my limited knowledge of this area that I wasn't aware that
you could put your alternative content within the  tag --
that's going to be very useful. This seems to be the best way forward
for me at present with my limited time frame without relying on
Javascript libraries.



The problem with using the  tag to embed content such as flash 
presents some problems in IE7. By default, these controls are 
"disabled" and users must click the object to "activate" it. This is 
the result of a company that held a patent on embedding content, and 
took MS to court over it. However, the patent doesn't include 
embedding inline objects (Such as using javascript to embed flash).


I'd strongly encourage you to check out SWFObject. It's quick and easy 
to implement. You can also provide alternate content for users without 
flash or javascript. That said, the object tag *does* support 
alternate content as well.


Same for UFO:
http://www.bobbyvandersluis.com/ufo/

cheers,
Sander



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Re: [WSG] Best practice embedding a Quicktime/Flash video

[Tate Johnson]

On 29/06/2007, at 6:52 PM, David Little wrote:


I see your point here. The only thing I wonder about, and forgive me
if I am just in need of more coffee here, but what does a user get if
they *choose* not use Flash? Is alt-content handled?


It shows my limited knowledge of this area that I wasn't aware that
you could put your alternative content within the  tag --
that's going to be very useful. This seems to be the best way forward
for me at present with my limited time frame without relying on
Javascript libraries.



The problem with using the  tag to embed content such as  
flash presents some problems in IE7. By default, these controls are  
"disabled" and users must click the object to "activate" it. This is  
the result of a company that held a patent on embedding content, and  
took MS to court over it. However, the patent doesn't include  
embedding inline objects (Such as using javascript to embed flash).


I'd strongly encourage you to check out SWFObject. It's quick and  
easy to implement. You can also provide alternate content for users  
without flash or javascript. That said, the object tag *does* support  
alternate content as well.


SWFobject --> http://blog.deconcept.com/swfobject/

- Tate


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Re: [WSG] Best practice embedding a Quicktime/Flash video

[David Little]

I see your point here. The only thing I wonder about, and forgive me
if I am just in need of more coffee here, but what does a user get if
they *choose* not use Flash? Is alt-content handled?


It shows my limited knowledge of this area that I wasn't aware that
you could put your alternative content within the  tag --
that's going to be very useful. This seems to be the best way forward
for me at present with my limited time frame without relying on
Javascript libraries.

In terms of alternate content, this is unlikely to be anything much
beyond an invitation to download Flash (tho' if you believe the stats,
c.97% of users have it installed anyway). I think it  may be worth
investing more time in looking at captioning the Flash movies.

Thanks again,
David


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Re: [WSG] Best practice embedding a Quicktime/Flash video

[Micky Hulse]

Sander Aarts wrote:
I prefer it above SWFObject as it seems to be more web standards 
compliant. Well that's what Bobby says himself anyway ;-) in this A list 
Apart article about Flash embedding: 


I like the UFO approach, but I found that it is not the best option if 
you have to dynamically apply variables (example: width/height) via, for 
example, a CMS...


My last project this was the case... I needed to give the UFO script a 
dynamic width/height but I did not have access to the  due to the 
nature of the CMS I was using.


swfObject was much more useful in this situation.

Cheers,
M

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Re: [WSG] Best practice embedding a Quicktime/Flash video

[Sander Aarts]

Tom Livingston schreef:

On 6/27/07, David Little <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Hi,

I'm looking for some advice on best practice methods of embedding a
QT/Flash movie in a page in a standards compliant way, so any ideas
would be very gratefully received!



I use this:

http://blog.deconcept.com/swfobject/

Not sure about "best practice" but it's served us well. There is a
couple issues, but really what method doesn't have it's issues. I am
particularly fond of the way it handles alt-content.


Similar in use is UFO from Bobby van der Sluis: 
http://www.bobbyvandersluis.com/ufo/


I prefer it above SWFObject as it seems to be more web standards 
compliant. Well that's what Bobby says himself anyway ;-) in this A list 
Apart article about Flash embedding: 
http://alistapart.com/articles/flashembedcagematch/


cheers,
Sander





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Re: [WSG] Best practice embedding a Quicktime/Flash video

[Micky Hulse]

Designer wrote:
Note the 5th line of code. If a user doesn't have Flash, he/she just 
sees the equivalent gif. NO pestering.


Interesting. Thanks for sharing that. :)

I personally prefer swfObject.

UFO is another (unobtrusive alternative to swfObject):


I also like to use Objecty for video and Flash and other stuff:


Objecty has some probs when it comes to validation, but it is easy and 
gets the job done, so I am willing to accept the few validation errors 
for the sake of ease of use.


Good luck!
Cheers,
Micky

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Re: [WSG] Best practice embedding a Quicktime/Flash video

[Designer]

Tom Livingston wrote:



[snip]


What I like about SWFObject, is the easy way to deliver basically
*any* alternate content for a user without Flash. So a user choosing
to not use Flash can still have a somewhat rich experience instead of
just getting the "Download Flash" message.

Just a thought. And 2¢... :-P


Hi Tom (and all),

I like the very simple method suggested to me by Bert Stern [ 
http://www.betterwebdesign.com.au] a couple of years ago:



type="application/x-shockwave-flash">

  
  
  
  


Note the 5th line of code. If a user doesn't have Flash, he/she just 
sees the equivalent gif. NO pestering.


--
Bob

www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk



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Re: [WSG] Best practice embedding a Quicktime/Flash video

[Tom Livingston]

I think the answer here may lie in descriptive help text about which
plugin you may need rather than anything more complex

Thanks again,
David

>


I see your point here. The only thing I wonder about, and forgive me
if I am just in need of more coffee here, but what does a user get if
they *choose* not use Flash? Is alt-content handled?

What I like about SWFObject, is the easy way to deliver basically
*any* alternate content for a user without Flash. So a user choosing
to not use Flash can still have a somewhat rich experience instead of
just getting the "Download Flash" message.

Just a thought. And 2¢... :-P

--


Tom Livingston | Senior Multimedia Artist | Media Logic |
ph: 518.456.3015x231 | fx: 518.456.4279 | mlinc.com


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Re: [WSG] Best practice embedding a Quicktime/Flash video

[David Little]

Hi,

Thanks for your replies on this. I'd embedded the movie in the way Tim
described -- I was thinking more along the lines of what you would do
when you use this method to deal with the inevitable messages you get
when you don't have the plugin installed. You'd get round this with a
detection script like swfobject which Tom mentions, but this is too JS
reliant for me.

I'm thinking it will be best to go down the route of embedding Flash
(and not QT) using the standards-compliant/conditional comment path.
The "you need an additional plugin blah blah" message isn't as
alarming for Flash as it is for Quicktime on some platforms. Plus, the
Flash player's a lot more lightweight, so people won't have to worry
about also downloading iTunes and other nonsense as they do with QT.

I think the answer here may lie in descriptive help text about which
plugin you may need rather than anything more complex

Thanks again,
David

On 27/06/07, Tom Livingston <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

On 6/27/07, David Little <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I'm looking for some advice on best practice methods of embedding a
> QT/Flash movie in a page in a standards compliant way, so any ideas
> would be very gratefully received!
>

I use this:

http://blog.deconcept.com/swfobject/

Not sure about "best practice" but it's served us well. There is a
couple issues, but really what method doesn't have it's issues. I am
particularly fond of the way it handles alt-content.


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David Little

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Re: [WSG] Best practice embedding a Quicktime/Flash video

[Tom Livingston]

On 6/27/07, David Little <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Hi,

I'm looking for some advice on best practice methods of embedding a
QT/Flash movie in a page in a standards compliant way, so any ideas
would be very gratefully received!



I use this:

http://blog.deconcept.com/swfobject/

Not sure about "best practice" but it's served us well. There is a
couple issues, but really what method doesn't have it's issues. I am
particularly fond of the way it handles alt-content.


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Re: [WSG] Best practice embedding a Quicktime/Flash video

[Tim Palac]

I use conditional code on my site - seems the best way to go if you want to
follow standards.  Personally I just never had the patience to dive into
those A List Apart Flash Satay and other methods.

The general issue is that IE and all other browsers render Flash
differently.  I've tested this in Firefox, Opera, Safari, and IE.  Anyway,
it's something like this:


   
   
   
   
   


   
   
  

On 6/27/07, David Little <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


Hi,

I'm looking for some advice on best practice methods of embedding a
QT/Flash movie in a page in a standards compliant way, so any ideas
would be very gratefully received!

At the moment my page embeds a video using the standards compliant
method for QT videos as described by Elizabeth Castro in her A List
Apart article "Bye Bye Embed":

http://www.alistapart.com/articles/byebyeembed

I then use some unobstrusive javascript to add a show/hide control and
to hide the video on load. This means that non-Javascript-enabled
browsers will simply get the video without the show / hide controls.

This is all fine until you try it in a browser without Quicktime (we
may opt for Flash in the end, but the principles I guess will be the
same). Then, in IE you get the rather unhelpful "Security warning" /
install software message (well at least that's what you get on the IE6
install running on my virtual PC). Obviously this is not so bad in
Firefox where you get the "Install missing plugins message".

Using a detection script would probably by-pass these issues, but that
would then not be in the spirit of progressive enhancement I'm going
for.

I'd be interested to know how others have approached this kind of
issue. As usual I may be missing something blindingly obvious -- this
is one of the areas in which my experience is a little limited!

Many thanks,
David
--
David Little


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[WSG] Best practice embedding a Quicktime/Flash video

[David Little]

Hi,

I'm looking for some advice on best practice methods of embedding a
QT/Flash movie in a page in a standards compliant way, so any ideas
would be very gratefully received!

At the moment my page embeds a video using the standards compliant
method for QT videos as described by Elizabeth Castro in her A List
Apart article "Bye Bye Embed":

http://www.alistapart.com/articles/byebyeembed

I then use some unobstrusive javascript to add a show/hide control and
to hide the video on load. This means that non-Javascript-enabled
browsers will simply get the video without the show / hide controls.

This is all fine until you try it in a browser without Quicktime (we
may opt for Flash in the end, but the principles I guess will be the
same). Then, in IE you get the rather unhelpful "Security warning" /
install software message (well at least that's what you get on the IE6
install running on my virtual PC). Obviously this is not so bad in
Firefox where you get the "Install missing plugins message".

Using a detection script would probably by-pass these issues, but that
would then not be in the spirit of progressive enhancement I'm going
for.

I'd be interested to know how others have approached this kind of
issue. As usual I may be missing something blindingly obvious -- this
is one of the areas in which my experience is a little limited!

Many thanks,
David
--
David Little


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[WSG] best practice for layering menus

[Claudia Frers]

I have been hesitent to ask this question as I am
not sure that the optimal solution is to use css.

I wish to have a top horizontal menu which alternates
the selection of left navigation menus.

So if my top menu links are spanish, english and danish
I want to display the contents: one two three on the left side
in their respective languages. This example is purely for
demonstration purposes and not meant as an exercise in internationalization.

Personally, I was hoping to use a pure css solution and found some links
that made me think I was on the right track:

I think this technique shows how with CSS's "z-index:" property one can 
control what is layered on top of what regardless of the order of the 
code. The amount of java script would be minimal it seems but I am not

sure if it works well across all browsers.


http://codepunk.hardwar.org.uk/acss07.htm

These are other good tips:
when to use visibility property or when to use display/block
http://www.devx.com/tips/Tip/13638

Some close solutions used javascript but did not work well across 
different browsers:

http://www.chunkysoup.net/basic/js3step/js_3step.4.html
http://codepunk.hardwar.org.uk/bjs21.htm

and I am guessing that I need something like:
http://www.quirksmode.org/js/layerwrite.html

WHAT I REALLY WANT TO KNOW IS :-)

What do the experts say? I want it to work at least in FF1.0 and IE 6.0
so browser compatibility is an issue but I want to keep the js  to a 
minimal.


Concretely, what changes do I need to make in my code if I want menu1 to 
display different languages when clicking on the appropriate link?







my first java script



#menu1{
display: none;
width: 200px;
position: absolute;
top: 10em;
left: 10;
background-color: #EEFFCC;
border: 1px solid black;
}




function message()
{
alert("This alert box was called with the onload event")
}



onclick="document.getElementById('menu1').style.display='block'">show 

onclick="document.getElementById('menu1').style.display='none'">hide 

onclick="document.getElementById('menu1').style.display='block'">english 

onclick="document.getElementById('menu1').style.display='none'">danish 

onclick="document.getElementById('menu1').style.display='block'">spanish 

onclick="document.getElementById('menu1').style.display='none'">empty




Item one
Item two
Item three



Item uno
Item dos
Item tres



Item en
Item to
Item tre







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[WSG] best practice for layering menus

[Claudia Frers]

I have been hesitent to ask this question as I am
not sure that the optimal solution is to use css.

I wish to have a top horizontal menu which alternates
the selection of left navigation menus.

So if my top menu links are spanish, english and danish
I want to display the contents: one two three on the left side
in their respective languages. This example is purely for
demonstration purposes and not meant as an exercise in internationalization.

Personally, I was hoping to use a pure css solution and found some links
that made me think I was on the right track:

I think this technique shows how with CSS's "z-index:" property one can 
control what is layered on top of what regardless of the order of the 
code. The amount of java script would be minimal it seems but I am not

sure if it works well across all browsers.


http://codepunk.hardwar.org.uk/acss07.htm

These are other good tips:
when to use visibility property or when to use display/block
http://www.devx.com/tips/Tip/13638

Some close solutions used javascript but did not work well across 
different browsers:

http://www.chunkysoup.net/basic/js3step/js_3step.4.html
http://codepunk.hardwar.org.uk/bjs21.htm

and I am guessing that I need something like:
http://www.quirksmode.org/js/layerwrite.html

WHAT I REALLY WANT TO KNOW IS :-)

What do the experts say? I want it to work at least in FF1.0 and IE 6.0
so browser compatibility is an issue but I want to keep the js  to a 
minimal.


Concretely, what changes do I need to make in my code if I want menu1 to 
display different languages when clicking on the appropriate link?







my first java script



#menu1{
display: none;
width: 200px;
position: absolute;
top: 10em;
left: 10;
background-color: #EEFFCC;
border: 1px solid black;
}




function message()
{
alert("This alert box was called with the onload event")
}



onclick="document.getElementById('menu1').style.display='block'">show 

onclick="document.getElementById('menu1').style.display='none'">hide 

onclick="document.getElementById('menu1').style.display='block'">english 

onclick="document.getElementById('menu1').style.display='none'">danish 

onclick="document.getElementById('menu1').style.display='block'">spanish 

onclick="document.getElementById('menu1').style.display='none'">empty




Item one
Item two
Item three



Item uno
Item dos
Item tres



Item en
Item to
Item tre






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Re: [WSG] best practice?

[designer]

- Original Message - 
From: "Bert Doorn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Friday, April 29, 2005 11:17 AM
Subject: Re: [WSG] best practice?


> I wouldn't do that, unless you want everything centered...  Text
> in every paragraph, content of any and every div, list item and
> what have you.
>
> Best to just put it on body...
>
> Regards
> -- 
> Bert Doorn, Better Web Design
> http://www.betterwebdesign.com.au/
> Fast-loading, user-friendly websites
>

Fair point Bert, but requirements will vary - depending largely upon the
amount of text in the div.  For things like image galleries, that twidge of
code is a godsend. Other times, no, you're right.

Bob McClelland,
Cornwall (U.K.)
www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk


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Re: [WSG] best practice?

[Stuart Homfray]

Mike wrote:
I guess you can't center a fluid width element.  Does anyone know of a way?
I suppose you could go:
#container { margin: 0 20px; }
or
#container { margin: 0 5%; }
Stuart
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Re: [WSG] best practice?

[Bert Doorn]

G'day
designer wrote:
Lawdy - I've got work to do now, removing all those conditional comments and
adding "text-align : center" to my generic *{margin : 0; padding : 0} on my
CSS !
I wouldn't do that, unless you want everything centered...  Text 
in every paragraph, content of any and every div, list item and 
what have you.

Best to just put it on body...
Regards
--
Bert Doorn, Better Web Design
http://www.betterwebdesign.com.au/
Fast-loading, user-friendly websites
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Re: [WSG] best practice?

[designer]

As my old Dad used to say: "Well, blow me down!"

A stunner! An absolute revelation!  So how can I have missed that?

Geesh - thank you. Get yourself a beer, on me :-)

(and thanks to all who responded, too)

Lawdy - I've got work to do now, removing all those conditional comments and
adding "text-align : center" to my generic *{margin : 0; padding : 0} on my
CSS !

Delighted.

Bob McClelland,
Cornwall (U.K.)
www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk


- Original Message - 
From: "Jan Brasna" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2005 9:18 PM
Subject: Re: [WSG] best practice?


> body {text-align: center;}
> #container {text-align: left; margin: 0 auto;}
>
> -- 
> Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com


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Re: [WSG] best practice?

[Chris Knowles]

apologies, that should of course be...
margin: 0 0 0 -30em;

> But so does this...
>
> #container {
> position: absolute;
> top: 0;
> left: 50%;
> width: 60em;
> margin-left: 0 0 0 -30em;
> }
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Re: [WSG] best practice?

[Chris Knowles]

This works well...
body {
text-align: center;
}
#container {
margin: 0 auto;
text-align: left;
}
But so does this...
#container {
position: absolute;
top: 0;
left: 50%;
width: 60em;
margin-left: 0 0 0 -30em;
}
--
Chris Knowles
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Re: [WSG] best practice?

[Roger Johansson]

On 28 apr 2005, at 22.04, designer wrote:
Thing. The point is, this doesn't work in IE
IE6 in standards mode does, actually. But you need to give the element  
you want to centre an explicit width.

See "Centring (centering)" in this document:
<  
http://www.456bereastreet.com/archive/200503/ 
css_tips_and_tricks_part_2/ >

/Roger
--
http://www.456bereastreet.com/
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Re: [WSG] best practice?

[Mike]

Hey Everyone,
I think this is correct.  What happens is that if you don't set a width, 
it defaults to 'auto'.  In that case you have a left margin, right 
margin, and width all with 'auto' values.  This forces the left margin 
value to become 0 and the right margin value to be ignored.  I think.  
The spec is a little confusing.

I guess you can't center a fluid width element.  Does anyone know of a way?
-Mike
Matt Thommes wrote:
As far as I know, setting the left and right margins to "auto" only
works if an explicit "width" is also set.
If a width is not set for the element that has the auto margins, you
will not get the "centered" effect.
I'm not really sure why this is the case, but I've never really had a
problem with it.
So, maybe try:
#container {
margin-left : auto;
margin-right : auto;
width: 750px;
}

-Matthom
http://www.matthom.com/
On 4/28/05, designer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
 

Firstly, let me say that I have been doing standards only since last
September, so am very much a novice. I have upgraded 5 or so sites to be
XHTML/CSS etc, and got them to validate as STRICT, so I am happy that 'I can
do it', as far as it goes.
I have learnt quite a lot (in fact, it seems a helluva lot :-) and picked up
sufficient tips etc to be able to sit down and code without thinking about
it. (too much, anyway :-)
So having filled in the background, I'll tell you why I think I'm going to
be 'naughty'.
Most of my designs have a container, 600px-750px wide, which I like to
center horizontally, at least.  So I've been doing the :
#container {
margin-left : auto;
margin-right : auto;
}
Thing. The point is, this doesn't work in IE, and as IE is very important
(like it or not), I've been doing the conditional comment hack:


 This is some text


Ok, but the centring doesn't cascade (except in IE) so, anything that goes
inside the container has to have the left and right margin:auto thing
applied to it.
I'm beginning to think that using:


 This is some text


and a transitional DTD produces something which has less lines of code,
contains no hack, and the centring cascades down the line to the container
contents.  I've got to say it, this DOES seem a much more 'sensible'
approach.  I do realise that this must not get out of hand, but a limited
and (in my view) valid case such as this is justification for the occasional
'hybrid' approach.  So, I'm not asking for a kind of 'permission' to do this
(I can make my own mind up about that :-), but I am asking if, in your view,
there are any really important reasons not to, and to assess your
thoughts/responses.
In other words, using that conditional comment makes the code validate
strict, but only because the validator ignores it, so that could be
considered 'cheating'. So why not be honest about it, and admit the cheating
by using the align="center" div for all browsers?  As far as I know, there
isn't an alternative for IE?
Thank you!
Bob McClelland,
Cornwall (U.K.)
www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk
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RE: [WSG] best practice?

[Hugues Brunelle]

Hello Bob,
This might help you for layout positionning :

http://www.bluerobot.com/
http://glish.com/css/



Hugues Brunelle
Concepteur graphique
 
//
ECHO tridimension
2139 rue Masson
Montréal QC  H2H 1A8
 
1-(514)5211360
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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RE: [WSG] best practice?

[Duckworth, Nigel]

Use:

body {
margin: 0;
padding: 0;
text-align: center; /* for IE */
}

Then override the text align center on your container with:

#container {
margin: 0 auto;
width: 750px;
text-align: left;
}

HTH,

-Nigel


-Original Message-
From: designer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2005 4:04 PM
To: webstandards group
Subject: [WSG] best practice?


Firstly, let me say that I have been doing standards only since last
September, so am very much a novice. I have upgraded 5 or so sites to be
XHTML/CSS etc, and got them to validate as STRICT, so I am happy that 'I
can do it', as far as it goes.

I have learnt quite a lot (in fact, it seems a helluva lot :-) and
picked up sufficient tips etc to be able to sit down and code without
thinking about it. (too much, anyway :-)

So having filled in the background, I'll tell you why I think I'm going
to be 'naughty'.

Most of my designs have a container, 600px-750px wide, which I like to
center horizontally, at least.  So I've been doing the :

#container {
 margin-left : auto;
 margin-right : auto;
}

Thing. The point is, this doesn't work in IE, and as IE is very
important (like it or not), I've been doing the conditional comment
hack:



  This is some text



Ok, but the centring doesn't cascade (except in IE) so, anything that
goes inside the container has to have the left and right margin:auto
thing applied to it.

I'm beginning to think that using:



  This is some text



and a transitional DTD produces something which has less lines of code,
contains no hack, and the centring cascades down the line to the
container contents.  I've got to say it, this DOES seem a much more
'sensible' approach.  I do realise that this must not get out of hand,
but a limited and (in my view) valid case such as this is justification
for the occasional 'hybrid' approach.  So, I'm not asking for a kind of
'permission' to do this (I can make my own mind up about that :-), but I
am asking if, in your view, there are any really important reasons not
to, and to assess your thoughts/responses.

In other words, using that conditional comment makes the code validate
strict, but only because the validator ignores it, so that could be
considered 'cheating'. So why not be honest about it, and admit the
cheating by using the align="center" div for all browsers?  As far as I
know, there isn't an alternative for IE?

Thank you!

Bob McClelland,
Cornwall (U.K.)
www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk



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Re: [WSG] best practice?

[Jan Brasna]

body {text-align: center;}
#container {text-align: left; margin: 0 auto;}
--
Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com
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Re: [WSG] best practice?

[Matt Thommes]

As far as I know, setting the left and right margins to "auto" only
works if an explicit "width" is also set.

If a width is not set for the element that has the auto margins, you
will not get the "centered" effect.

I'm not really sure why this is the case, but I've never really had a
problem with it.

So, maybe try:

#container {
margin-left : auto;
margin-right : auto;
width: 750px;
}



-Matthom
http://www.matthom.com/


On 4/28/05, designer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Firstly, let me say that I have been doing standards only since last
> September, so am very much a novice. I have upgraded 5 or so sites to be
> XHTML/CSS etc, and got them to validate as STRICT, so I am happy that 'I can
> do it', as far as it goes.
> 
> I have learnt quite a lot (in fact, it seems a helluva lot :-) and picked up
> sufficient tips etc to be able to sit down and code without thinking about
> it. (too much, anyway :-)
> 
> So having filled in the background, I'll tell you why I think I'm going to
> be 'naughty'.
> 
> Most of my designs have a container, 600px-750px wide, which I like to
> center horizontally, at least.  So I've been doing the :
> 
> #container {
>  margin-left : auto;
>  margin-right : auto;
> }
> 
> Thing. The point is, this doesn't work in IE, and as IE is very important
> (like it or not), I've been doing the conditional comment hack:
> 
> 
> 
>   This is some text
> 
> 
> 
> Ok, but the centring doesn't cascade (except in IE) so, anything that goes
> inside the container has to have the left and right margin:auto thing
> applied to it.
> 
> I'm beginning to think that using:
> 
> 
> 
>   This is some text
> 
> 
> 
> and a transitional DTD produces something which has less lines of code,
> contains no hack, and the centring cascades down the line to the container
> contents.  I've got to say it, this DOES seem a much more 'sensible'
> approach.  I do realise that this must not get out of hand, but a limited
> and (in my view) valid case such as this is justification for the occasional
> 'hybrid' approach.  So, I'm not asking for a kind of 'permission' to do this
> (I can make my own mind up about that :-), but I am asking if, in your view,
> there are any really important reasons not to, and to assess your
> thoughts/responses.
> 
> In other words, using that conditional comment makes the code validate
> strict, but only because the validator ignores it, so that could be
> considered 'cheating'. So why not be honest about it, and admit the cheating
> by using the align="center" div for all browsers?  As far as I know, there
> isn't an alternative for IE?
> 
> Thank you!
> 
> Bob McClelland,
> Cornwall (U.K.)
> www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk
> 
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> 
>  See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
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> **
> 
>
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[WSG] best practice?

[designer]

Firstly, let me say that I have been doing standards only since last
September, so am very much a novice. I have upgraded 5 or so sites to be
XHTML/CSS etc, and got them to validate as STRICT, so I am happy that 'I can
do it', as far as it goes.

I have learnt quite a lot (in fact, it seems a helluva lot :-) and picked up
sufficient tips etc to be able to sit down and code without thinking about
it. (too much, anyway :-)

So having filled in the background, I'll tell you why I think I'm going to
be 'naughty'.

Most of my designs have a container, 600px-750px wide, which I like to
center horizontally, at least.  So I've been doing the :

#container {
 margin-left : auto;
 margin-right : auto;
}

Thing. The point is, this doesn't work in IE, and as IE is very important
(like it or not), I've been doing the conditional comment hack:



  This is some text



Ok, but the centring doesn't cascade (except in IE) so, anything that goes
inside the container has to have the left and right margin:auto thing
applied to it.

I'm beginning to think that using:



  This is some text



and a transitional DTD produces something which has less lines of code,
contains no hack, and the centring cascades down the line to the container
contents.  I've got to say it, this DOES seem a much more 'sensible'
approach.  I do realise that this must not get out of hand, but a limited
and (in my view) valid case such as this is justification for the occasional
'hybrid' approach.  So, I'm not asking for a kind of 'permission' to do this
(I can make my own mind up about that :-), but I am asking if, in your view,
there are any really important reasons not to, and to assess your
thoughts/responses.

In other words, using that conditional comment makes the code validate
strict, but only because the validator ignores it, so that could be
considered 'cheating'. So why not be honest about it, and admit the cheating
by using the align="center" div for all browsers?  As far as I know, there
isn't an alternative for IE?

Thank you!

Bob McClelland,
Cornwall (U.K.)
www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk



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