RE: [WSG] XHTML or HTML?

2010-11-11 Thread Webb, KerryA 
 
>
> On 10 Nov 2010, at 22:34, cat soul wrote:
>
> > Any thoughts on which we ought to be using
>
> HTML, since it works in IE < 9 without having to pretend it is HTML.
>
> 4.01, since it is a stable recommendation with mature QA tools (unless you
> have a need for features added in HTML5 and are willing to life on the
> bleeding edge)
>
> Strict, unless you need something only offered by Transitional (in which
> case think twice as not being in Strict is a clue that you probably
> shouldn't use something).
>
>
> > , and what information ought to be up at top of an HTML page, along with
> , etc?
>
> Title is mandatory.
>
> Meta charset if you think people are more likely to view a locally saved
> copy of the document than a copy that has gone through a transcoding
> proxy.
>
> Links to any stylesheets.
>
> Scripts that need to run before the page has finished loading.
>

And, as specified by WCAG 2.0, the lang attribute in the HTML tag.

Kerry
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Re: [WSG] XHTML or HTML?

2010-11-11 Thread Micky Hulse 
On Thu, Nov 11, 2010 at 12:01 PM, cat soul  wrote:
> thanks for that...I'll have to check it out. That title looks like a
> must-have...they offer another for CSS as well, endorsed by none other than
> Eric Meyer.

Yah, I think I will pick that one up also! :)

"CSS3 For Web Designers"


"This book will be released on November 16th."

Should be a good read. :)

Cheers,
Micky

-- 
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Web Content Editor
The Register-Guard
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Re: [WSG] XHTML or HTML?

2010-11-11 Thread cat soul 


On Nov 11, 2010, at 11:47 AM, Micky Hulse wrote:


Howdy!

On Thu, Nov 11, 2010 at 11:23 AM, cat soul   
wrote:
I see that one of the choices is the eBook form...can that be read  
on a Mac?


Good question!

Looks like the "ebook" includes PDF, ePub, and mobi formats.

I am sure there are ePub readers on Mac. I usually don't mind reading
the PDF myself. :)



thanks for that...I'll have to check it out. That title looks like a  
must-have...they offer another for CSS as well, endorsed by none  
other than Eric Meyer.


cs


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Re: [WSG] XHTML or HTML?

2010-11-11 Thread wilbur . j . pereira 
Yep, there's the kindle reader for the Mac and a couple of other readers.


Regards,
Wilbur
Sent on my BlackBerry® from Vodafone

-Original Message-
From: Micky Hulse 
Sender: li...@webstandardsgroup.org
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2010 11:47:26 
To: 
Reply-to: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] XHTML or HTML?

Howdy!

On Thu, Nov 11, 2010 at 11:23 AM, cat soul  wrote:
> I see that one of the choices is the eBook form...can that be read on a Mac?

Good question!

Looks like the "ebook" includes PDF, ePub, and mobi formats.

I am sure there are ePub readers on Mac. I usually don't mind reading
the PDF myself. :)

Have a great day!

Cheers,
Micky

-- 
Micky Hulse
Web Content Editor
The Register-Guard
3500 Chad Drive
Eugene, OR 97408
Phone: (541) 338-2621
Fax: (541) 683-7631
Web: <http://www.registerguard.com>


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Re: [WSG] XHTML or HTML?

2010-11-11 Thread Micky Hulse 
On Thu, Nov 11, 2010 at 11:47 AM, Micky Hulse
 wrote:
> Looks like the "ebook" includes PDF, ePub, and mobi formats.

Looks like one of the chapters is online:

"A Brief History of Markup"


I thought that chapter was a pretty interesting read. :)

Cheers,
Micky

-- 
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Web Content Editor
The Register-Guard
3500 Chad Drive
Eugene, OR 97408
Phone: (541) 338-2621
Fax: (541) 683-7631
Web: 


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Re: [WSG] XHTML or HTML?

2010-11-11 Thread Micky Hulse 
Howdy!

On Thu, Nov 11, 2010 at 11:23 AM, cat soul  wrote:
> I see that one of the choices is the eBook form...can that be read on a Mac?

Good question!

Looks like the "ebook" includes PDF, ePub, and mobi formats.

I am sure there are ePub readers on Mac. I usually don't mind reading
the PDF myself. :)

Have a great day!

Cheers,
Micky

-- 
Micky Hulse
Web Content Editor
The Register-Guard
3500 Chad Drive
Eugene, OR 97408
Phone: (541) 338-2621
Fax: (541) 683-7631
Web: 


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Re: [WSG] XHTML or HTML?

2010-11-11 Thread cat soul 

On Nov 11, 2010, at 9:31 AM, Micky Hulse wrote:


I just finished reading HTML5 for web designers, and I thought it was
a pretty good introduction to HTML5.



An easy read. Very short book.

Cheers,
Micky


I see that one of the choices is the eBook form...can that be read on  
a Mac?


thanks!

cs


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Re: [WSG] XHTML or HTML?

2010-11-11 Thread Micky Hulse 
On Thu, Nov 11, 2010 at 1:18 AM, Chris Taylor
 wrote:
> And there's Andy Clarke's new book "Hardboiled Web Design" which deals with 
> HTML5 and more: http://hardboiledwebdesign.com/
> So "is HTML5 ready", as far as http://ishtml5readyyet.com/ sees it isn't the 
> same as "can I use parts of this spec yet?"

I just finished reading HTML5 for web designers, and I thought it was
a pretty good introduction to HTML5.



An easy read. Very short book.

Cheers,
Micky


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Re: [WSG] XHTML or HTML?

2010-11-11 Thread David Dorward 
 
On 11 Nov 2010, at 10:50, Chris Taylor wrote:

> From: David Dorward
> Sent: 11 November 2010 10:30
> 
>> On 11 Nov 2010, at 09:18, Chris Taylor wrote:
>>> In fact, this is HTML5-style -  - but will work fine in all 
>>> browsers (as far as I know).
> 
>> When you come to perform basic QA using a validator, on the other hand, you 
>> get very different results.
> 
> Agreed, and it is a problem, but how much of that problem is validators not 
> being updated? To be honest, if that's the only error I get from a validator 
> I'd feel I was doing a decent job. The crux is, as it has always been, what 
> actually happens in browsers themselves.

Error? I wasn't suggesting that a validator would complain about the Doctype. 
It will either fail to recognise it (and thus refuse to do any validation) or 
it will trigger HTML5 validation. This isn't built on HTML 4.01 validation 
since HTML 5 is not an SGML application. The result is that you get a 
completely different validation engine — one that isn't mature and is still 
trying to track a moving target.

-- 
David Dorward
http://dorward.me.uk



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RE: [WSG] XHTML or HTML?

2010-11-11 Thread Chris Taylor 
From: David Dorward
Sent: 11 November 2010 10:30

> On 11 Nov 2010, at 09:18, Chris Taylor wrote:
>> In fact, this is HTML5-style -  - but will work fine in all 
>> browsers (as far as I know).

>  When you come to perform basic QA using a validator, on the other hand, you 
> get very different results.

Agreed, and it is a problem, but how much of that problem is validators not 
being updated? To be honest, if that's the only error I get from a validator 
I'd feel I was doing a decent job. The crux is, as it has always been, what 
actually happens in browsers themselves.

Chris



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Re: [WSG] XHTML or HTML?

2010-11-11 Thread David Dorward 
On 11 Nov 2010, at 09:18, Chris Taylor wrote:
> HTML5 as a finished, published spec may be 10 years off, but there are plenty 
> of HTML5 features you can use right now with some careful handling of older 
> (IE) browsers. The future is already among us.
> 
> In fact, this is HTML5-style -  - but will work fine in all 
> browsers (as far as I know).

As far as browsers are concerned, it is will act no differently to HTML 4.01 
Strict (or a number of other Doctypes). When you come to perform basic QA using 
a validator, on the other hand, you get very different results.

-- 
David Dorward
http://dorward.me.uk



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RE: [WSG] XHTML or HTML?

2010-11-11 Thread Chris Taylor 
From: cat soul
Sent: 10 November 2010 23:32
> Great! Most everyone else is saying HTML5 is 10 years off and not to
> code for it, not to worry about it until then.

HTML5 as a finished, published spec may be 10 years off, but there are plenty 
of HTML5 features you can use right now with some careful handling of older 
(IE) browsers. The future is already among us.

In fact, this is HTML5-style -  - but will work fine in all 
browsers (as far as I know).

For more information check out:

http://html5doctor.com/how-to-use-html5-in-your-client-work-right-now/
http://diveintohtml5.org/
http://www.html5rocks.com/

And there's Andy Clarke's new book "Hardboiled Web Design" which deals with 
HTML5 and more: http://hardboiledwebdesign.com/

So "is HTML5 ready", as far as http://ishtml5readyyet.com/ sees it isn't the 
same as "can I use parts of this spec yet?"

Chris


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Re: [WSG] XHTML or HTML?

2010-11-10 Thread David Storey 
 
On 11 Nov 2010, at 00:17, Mathew Robertson wrote:

> Here is a reasonably good example:
> 
> http://www.texaswebdevelopers.com/blog/template_permalink.asp?id=136
> 
> In particular, the 'dir' and 'lang' attributes -> most people just assume 
> that english is the only language…

dir isn’t needed unless you are using rtl or something more exotic. The default 
is ltr. 

Also be aware if you are using a HTML5 structural elements like section and so 
on, while they work in modern browsers by adding “display: block;” and IE by 
the HTML5 Shim (createElement), they will not work on the BlackBerry browser 
(Pre-BB6, but that is most BBs on the market). BlackBerry is highly underrated, 
but by some measures it is the second most popular mobile browser after Opera: 
http://gs.statcounter.com/#mobile_browser-ww-daily-20091001-20101109

> 
> regards,
> Mathew Robertson
> 
> On 11 November 2010 09:53, Thierry Koblentz  
> wrote:
> > Any thoughts on which we ought to be using, and what information
> > ought to be up at top of an HTML page, along with , etc?
> 
> I'd go with  with nothing above that
> 
> --
> Regards,
> Thierry
> www.tjkdesign.com | www.ez-css.org | @thierrykoblentz
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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RE: [WSG] XHTML or HTML?

2010-11-10 Thread Ted Drake 
Benjamin always has a way of cutting through the fog and giving succent advice.
Ted


-Original Message-
From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On 
Behalf Of Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis
Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2010 3:26 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] XHTML or HTML?

On Wed, Nov 10, 2010 at 10:34 PM, cat soul  wrote:
> Any thoughts on which we ought to be using,

To cut a _long_ story very short, if you have to ask this question, use HTML.

See also:

http://www.webdevout.net/articles/beware-of-xhtml

http://dig.csail.mit.edu/breadcrumbs/node/166

http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/HTML_vs._XHTML

> and what information ought to be
> up at top of an HTML page, along with , etc?

Typically, character encoding information (in case the user saves the
page for offline consumption), page title, links to related resources
(e.g. stylesheets for styling, feeds for feed autodiscovery), page
description (often excerpted in search results pages). Possibly Open
Graph Protocol metadata (http://opengraphprotocol.org/).

--
Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis


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Re: [WSG] XHTML or HTML?

2010-11-10 Thread cat soul 


On Nov 10, 2010, at 3:14 PM, Ted Drake wrote:

Thierry's right. It's time to start making those baby steps into  
HTML5.

But you'll also need to add your charset and lang definition








Great! Most everyone else is saying HTML5 is 10 years off and not to  
code for it, not to worry about it until then.


cs


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Re: [WSG] XHTML or HTML?

2010-11-10 Thread Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis 
On Wed, Nov 10, 2010 at 10:34 PM, cat soul  wrote:
> Any thoughts on which we ought to be using,

To cut a _long_ story very short, if you have to ask this question, use HTML.

See also:

http://www.webdevout.net/articles/beware-of-xhtml

http://dig.csail.mit.edu/breadcrumbs/node/166

http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/HTML_vs._XHTML

> and what information ought to be
> up at top of an HTML page, along with , etc?

Typically, character encoding information (in case the user saves the
page for offline consumption), page title, links to related resources
(e.g. stylesheets for styling, feeds for feed autodiscovery), page
description (often excerpted in search results pages). Possibly Open
Graph Protocol metadata (http://opengraphprotocol.org/).

--
Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis


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Re: [WSG] XHTML or HTML?

2010-11-10 Thread Chris F.A. Johnson 

On Wed, 10 Nov 2010, cat soul wrote:

Any thoughts on which we ought to be using, and what information ought to be 
up at top of an HTML page, along with , etc?


   The first line should be a doctype. I recommend either 4.01 strict
   or HTML5.

  http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/strict.dtd";>
or
  

   In the HEAD you need a TITLE element.

   You probably also want a charset declaration, e.g.:

 

   a link to a stylesheet:

 

   a description META tag:

 

   Then the BODY.

   And always check your page with .

--
   Chris F.A. Johnson, 
   Author:
   Pro Bash Programming: Scripting the GNU/Linux Shell (2009, Apress)
   Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress)


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Re: [WSG] XHTML or HTML?

2010-11-10 Thread Mathew Robertson 
Here is a reasonably good example:

http://www.texaswebdevelopers.com/blog/template_permalink.asp?id=136

In
particular, the 'dir' and 'lang' attributes -> most people just assume that
english is the only language...

regards,
Mathew Robertson

On 11 November 2010 09:53, Thierry Koblentz wrote:

> > Any thoughts on which we ought to be using, and what information
> > ought to be up at top of an HTML page, along with , etc?
>
> I'd go with  with nothing above that
>
> --
> Regards,
> Thierry
> www.tjkdesign.com | www.ez-css.org | @thierrykoblentz
>
>
>
>
>
>
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RE: [WSG] XHTML or HTML?

2010-11-10 Thread Ted Drake 
Thierry's right. It's time to start making those baby steps into HTML5.
But you'll also need to add your charset and lang definition


 


...






ted
-Original Message-
From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On 
Behalf Of Thierry Koblentz
Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2010 2:54 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: RE: [WSG] XHTML or HTML?

> Any thoughts on which we ought to be using, and what information
> ought to be up at top of an HTML page, along with , etc?

I'd go with  with nothing above that

--
Regards,
Thierry
www.tjkdesign.com | www.ez-css.org | @thierrykoblentz






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Re: [WSG] XHTML or HTML?

2010-11-10 Thread David Dorward 
 
On 10 Nov 2010, at 22:34, cat soul wrote:

> Any thoughts on which we ought to be using

HTML, since it works in IE < 9 without having to pretend it is HTML.

4.01, since it is a stable recommendation with mature QA tools (unless you have 
a need for features added in HTML5 and are willing to life on the bleeding edge)

Strict, unless you need something only offered by Transitional (in which case 
think twice as not being in Strict is a clue that you probably shouldn't use 
something).


> , and what information ought to be up at top of an HTML page, along with 
> , etc?

Title is mandatory. 

Meta charset if you think people are more likely to view a locally saved copy 
of the document than a copy that has gone through a transcoding proxy.

Links to any stylesheets.

Scripts that need to run before the page has finished loading.

-- 
David Dorward
http://dorward.me.uk



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RE: [WSG] XHTML or HTML?

2010-11-10 Thread Thierry Koblentz 
> Any thoughts on which we ought to be using, and what information
> ought to be up at top of an HTML page, along with , etc?

I'd go with  with nothing above that

--
Regards,
Thierry
www.tjkdesign.com | www.ez-css.org | @thierrykoblentz






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