date:20201001

Re: [X2Go-User] x2go much slower than vnc?

2020-10-01 Thread Johann Petrak

On Thu, 1 Oct 2020 at 20:51, Stefan Baur  wrote:

> When you log in to that jump host, is there any way to find out what it
> is running?  Like, Linux, some BSD, or something commercial/closed
> source?  Can you run commands like "uname -a" there?
>
>
Debian 10 (buster)

 > I can live with establishing that ssh proxy connection manually, but I am

> > still
> > a bit confused that even now the comparison with VPN is still showing VPN
> > as being
> > faster. Have you guys tested this and got consistent results which shows
> > the opposite?
>
> Oh, so you have the option of using a VPN connection instead of going
> through that jump host?
> In that case, it would be interesting to see what happens when you set
> up a jump host of your own (preferably based on Debian Buster) on your
> internal network (i.e. in the same network where your X2Go Server resides).
> If you can connect via the VPN to the Jump Host under your control, and
> from there to the X2Go Server, and it feels almost as fast or just as
> fast as connecting directly to the server (via VPN), then that would be
> an indication that your "official" jump host is having issues with our
> client.  If, on the other hand, you're seeing the same lag again, it
> would mean that something's broken on our end, i.e. in X2GoClient.
>
> Sorry, that was a mistake, I meant VNC not VPN. What I meant is that I am
still
confused that even with those improvements of x2go, vnc is still noticably
faster.

I do have a different config to a server which I can reach both via an ssh
jump host
(running ubuntu) or a VPN, I will test this when I get some time.


>
> > Once I have more time on my hands I will try this with different machines
> > and
> > connections I have plenty where I could try this out.
> >
> > Completely different question: the way this works, would it in principle
> be
> > possible to
> > also have a windows client? I am almost exclusively using linux but with
> > vnc I can
> > use it from a windows machine as well, if needed.
>
> Um, sounds like you haven't looked at the X2Go web page yet?
> https://wiki.x2go.org/doku.php -> the green box labeled "Get X2Go"
>
> OK, so now I am blind as well, sorry.

>
> > At the moment this
> > actually works
> > better than on linux in HDPI multi monitor configuration because windows
> is
> > able to
> > seamlessly scale the vnc client window according to the monitor dpi,
> while
> > linux
> > (at least Ubuntu 20.04) still cannot do this properly.
>
> Well, X2GoClient allows you to set the DPI for your session (third tab
> in the session config), and it also allows you to enable or disable
> XINERAMA there.  Maybe that helps?
>
>
Thanks for that info and all your help!

Cheers,
  johann
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Re: [X2Go-User] x2go much slower than vnc?

2020-10-01 Thread Stefan Baur

Am 01.10.20 um 20:34 schrieb Johann Petrak:
> Thanks for this suggestion!
> I used the ssh connection (I am doing the equivalent thing for VNC as well)
> and with this, it feels less sluggish! Still not quite as smooth as VNC but
> it is
> now much better and maxing x2go usable in comparison.

So it seems that SOMETHING is messing with the SSH connection.
I think we have received previous reports about commercial Firewalls/SSH
Gateways causing problems, but am unable to find that in the archives.

When you log in to that jump host, is there any way to find out what it
is running?  Like, Linux, some BSD, or something commercial/closed
source?  Can you run commands like "uname -a" there?


> I experimented with different speed and compression settings, also tried
> to disable audio forwarding and printing but that did not change much.

Well, as long as you're not actually using audio and printing, those
connections will just sit there idle, so that is to be expected.



> I can live with establishing that ssh proxy connection manually, but I am
> still
> a bit confused that even now the comparison with VPN is still showing VPN
> as being
> faster. Have you guys tested this and got consistent results which shows
> the opposite?

Oh, so you have the option of using a VPN connection instead of going
through that jump host?
In that case, it would be interesting to see what happens when you set
up a jump host of your own (preferably based on Debian Buster) on your
internal network (i.e. in the same network where your X2Go Server resides).
If you can connect via the VPN to the Jump Host under your control, and
from there to the X2Go Server, and it feels almost as fast or just as
fast as connecting directly to the server (via VPN), then that would be
an indication that your "official" jump host is having issues with our
client.  If, on the other hand, you're seeing the same lag again, it
would mean that something's broken on our end, i.e. in X2GoClient.


> Once I have more time on my hands I will try this with different machines
> and
> connections I have plenty where I could try this out.
> 
> Completely different question: the way this works, would it in principle be
> possible to
> also have a windows client? I am almost exclusively using linux but with
> vnc I can
> use it from a windows machine as well, if needed. 

Um, sounds like you haven't looked at the X2Go web page yet?
https://wiki.x2go.org/doku.php -> the green box labeled "Get X2Go"


> At the moment this
> actually works
> better than on linux in HDPI multi monitor configuration because windows is
> able to
> seamlessly scale the vnc client window according to the monitor dpi, while
> linux
> (at least Ubuntu 20.04) still cannot do this properly.

Well, X2GoClient allows you to set the DPI for your session (third tab
in the session config), and it also allows you to enable or disable
XINERAMA there.  Maybe that helps?

Kind Regards,
Stefan Baur

-- 
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Re: [X2Go-User] x2go much slower than vnc?

2020-10-01 Thread Johann Petrak

Thanks for this suggestion!
I used the ssh connection (I am doing the equivalent thing for VNC as well)
and with this, it feels less sluggish! Still not quite as smooth as VNC but
it is
now much better and maxing x2go usable in comparison.
I experimented with different speed and compression settings, also tried
to disable audio forwarding and printing but that did not change much.
Of course it is hard to really test this properly since the connection I use
may not always provide the same bandwidth and since there is no way to
accurately measure this, it is just my subjective feeling of what is
faster.

I can live with establishing that ssh proxy connection manually, but I am
still
a bit confused that even now the comparison with VPN is still showing VPN
as being
faster. Have you guys tested this and got consistent results which shows
the opposite?

Once I have more time on my hands I will try this with different machines
and
connections I have plenty where I could try this out.

Completely different question: the way this works, would it in principle be
possible to
also have a windows client? I am almost exclusively using linux but with
vnc I can
use it from a windows machine as well, if needed. At the moment this
actually works
better than on linux in HDPI multi monitor configuration because windows is
able to
seamlessly scale the vnc client window according to the monitor dpi, while
linux
(at least Ubuntu 20.04) still cannot do this properly.

Cheers, j.

On Thu, 1 Oct 2020 at 15:12, Stefan Baur  wrote:

> Am 01.10.20 um 13:17 schrieb Johann Petrak:
> >> - Available Bandwidth and type of network connection
> >>   (WiFi, LAN cable; mobile network like UMTS/LTE, ...)
> >>
> > Cable with at least 10Mbps to the ssh gateway, then very fast GBit LAN
> > As I said, both VPN and X2GO use exactly the same connection with the
> same
> > bandwidth
>
> Ah, so you're using an SSH proxy/jump host.
> I wonder if maybe our code for that is broken somehow?
> Is that ssh proxy/jump host a Linux machine or some proprietary solution?
>
> Could you test by setting up an SSH connection first, like so:
>
> ssh -p 22 -L:[targethostname]:22 johann@ssh.[somehere.org]
>
> After that connection has been established, please create a new X2Go
> session configuration (_don't_ alter the existing one) that connects to
> localhost:, without setting an SSH proxy, with XFCE as your DE, and
> using your "johann" account, but leave all the other options set to
> their default values.  Then try to use that.  Does it change the
> speed/responsiveness in any way?
>
> Kind Regards,
> Stefan Baur
>
> --
> BAUR-ITCS UG (haftungsbeschränkt)
> Geschäftsführer: Stefan Baur
> Eichenäckerweg 10, 89081 Ulm | Registergericht Ulm, HRB 724364
> Fon/Fax 0731 40 34 66-36/-35 | USt-IdNr.: DE268653243
>
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Re: [X2Go-User] x2go disconnects on paste (openSUSE Tumbleweed)

2020-10-01 Thread Tristan Miller

Greetings.

On 27/07/2020 15.58, Tristan Miller wrote:
> whenever I try to paste the clipboard contents into a single application
> launched remotely via x2go, the x2go session disconnects and terminates.

I had been working around this bug by using the "heuler" packages in
 instead of my
own, but following an upgrade today to the following versions, the
problem is back:

nx-libs 3.5.99.24-0.0build1.0.git20200919.4102.heuler
libXcompshad3 3.5.99.24-0.0build1.0.git20200919.4102.heuler
libXcomp3 3.5.99.24-0.0build1.0.git20200919.4102.heuler
nxproxy 3.5.99.24-0.0build1.0.git20200919.4102.heuler
libNX_X11-6 3.5.99.24-0.0build1.0.git20200919.4102.heuler
nxagent 3.5.99.24-0.0build1.0.git20200919.4102.heuler

To reiterate the troubleshooting steps Ulrich suggested last time,
x2goagent -version reports 3.5.99.24, the problem occurs with both
clipboards (i.e., by using Shift+Ins or Edit->Paste, or when using
middle click), I am not using any clipboard managers on the local or
remote sides, and the problem happens no matter what text I have in the
clipboard.  (I haven't tried copying and pasting images.)

Can anyone help?  Not being able to copy and paste is not fun. :(

Regards,
Tristan

-- 
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
  Tristan Miller
Free Software developer, ferret herder, logologist
 https://logological.org/
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

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Re: [X2Go-User] x2go much slower than vnc?

2020-10-01 Thread Stefan Baur

Am 01.10.20 um 13:17 schrieb Johann Petrak:
>> - Available Bandwidth and type of network connection
>>   (WiFi, LAN cable; mobile network like UMTS/LTE, ...)
>>
> Cable with at least 10Mbps to the ssh gateway, then very fast GBit LAN
> As I said, both VPN and X2GO use exactly the same connection with the same
> bandwidth

Ah, so you're using an SSH proxy/jump host.
I wonder if maybe our code for that is broken somehow?
Is that ssh proxy/jump host a Linux machine or some proprietary solution?

Could you test by setting up an SSH connection first, like so:

ssh -p 22 -L:[targethostname]:22 johann@ssh.[somehere.org]

After that connection has been established, please create a new X2Go
session configuration (_don't_ alter the existing one) that connects to
localhost:, without setting an SSH proxy, with XFCE as your DE, and
using your "johann" account, but leave all the other options set to
their default values.  Then try to use that.  Does it change the
speed/responsiveness in any way?

Kind Regards,
Stefan Baur

-- 
BAUR-ITCS UG (haftungsbeschränkt)
Geschäftsführer: Stefan Baur
Eichenäckerweg 10, 89081 Ulm | Registergericht Ulm, HRB 724364
Fon/Fax 0731 40 34 66-36/-35 | USt-IdNr.: DE268653243
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Re: [X2Go-User] Losing mouse click ability and keyboard events

2020-10-01 Thread Nicolas Ecarnot


Le 01/10/2020 à 13:02, Stefan Baur a écrit :

Am 30.09.20 um 14:19 schrieb Nicolas Ecarnot:

Hello,

The day after, I can testify that changing the power-saving settings on
the server prevented this issue to rise again.
I don't know if it's worth writing that somewhere in a FAQ but for the
record, I wanted to write it here at least.


Well, for that, it would be nice to know which power-saving settings you
changed. Do you still remember them?
If you only know their French names, that's still better than nothing,
I'm sure we can figure them out somehow.

Kind Regards,
Stefan Baur




I agree with Ulrich about the fact that it IS strange that the mouse 
movements are still working, so these mouse inputs are took into 
account, but the clicks are not.


About the power-saving settings, this is simple, in my Xubuntu, I guess 
the control panel is the same as in every *ubuntu variants, at least 
when it's about power-saving settings.

I disabled *every* power-saving setup, making Greta Thunberg cry.
But at least, this server is a VM, doing very little.

To stay serious, I'm running out of idea about how to add more logs, 
read more docs, and detect at which point this issue is appearing.


--
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Re: [X2Go-User] x2go much slower than vnc?

2020-10-01 Thread Ulrich Sibiller

Thanks for that. Still no idea. Can you try with another client
machine? Or another client os?

Uli

On Thu, Oct 1, 2020 at 1:19 PM Johann Petrak  wrote:
>
> Thanks a lot! Find all the details below!
>
> Cheers,
>   Johann
>
> On Thu, 1 Oct 2020 at 12:52, Stefan Baur  wrote:
>>
>> Please provide us with the following:
>> - Client OS and Version
>
>
> Ubuntu 20.04
>
>>
>> - Version of X2GoClient (Help/About X2GoClient)
>
>
> v. 4.1.2.2 (Qt - 4.8.7)
>
>
>>
>> - Session configuration
>>   (preferably the "sessions" file/registry entries, rather than
>>   screenshots)
>
>
> I have pasted the content to the end of this email
>
>>
>> - Server OS and Version
>
>
> Ubuntu 18.04.5 LTS
>
>>
>> - X2Go package source (your distribution's standard repo vs.
>>   X2Go's stable repo vs. X2Go's nightly repo)
>
>
> x2goserver version is 4.1.0.3-0~1708~ut
> The following repo is added: http://ppa.launchpad.net/x2go/stable/ubuntu 
> bionic main
>
>>
>> - Version numbers of all X2Go/NX-related packages
>>   (on Debian-based distros: dpkg -l | egrep "x2go|nx" )
>
>
> Server:
>
> ii  libnx-x11-6:amd64  
> 2:3.5.99.22-0~201908271346~ubuntu18.04.1 amd64nxagent's 
> libNX_X11 client-part library
> ii  libx2go-log-perl   
> 4.1.0.3-0~1708~ubuntu18.04.1 all  Perl X2Go::Log 
> package
> ii  libx2go-server-db-perl 
> 4.1.0.3-0~1708~ubuntu18.04.1 amd64Perl 
> X2Go::Server:DB package
> ii  libx2go-server-perl
> 4.1.0.3-0~1708~ubuntu18.04.1 all  Perl 
> X2Go::Server package
> ii  nx-x11-common  
> 2:3.5.99.22-0~201908271346~ubuntu18.04.1 all  nx-X11 (common 
> files)
> ii  nxagent
> 2:3.5.99.22-0~201908271346~ubuntu18.04.1 amd64Nested Xserver 
> (aka NX Agent) supporting the NX compression protocol
> ii  x2goserver 
> 4.1.0.3-0~1708~ubuntu18.04.1 amd64X2Go server
> ii  x2goserver-common  
> 4.1.0.3-0~1708~ubuntu18.04.1 amd64X2Go Server 
> (common files)
> ii  x2goserver-extensions  
> 4.1.0.3-0~1708~ubuntu18.04.1 all  X2Go Server 
> (extension support)
> ii  x2goserver-fmbindings  
> 4.1.0.3-0~1708~ubuntu18.04.1 all  X2Go Server 
> (file manager bindings)
> ii  x2goserver-printing
> 4.1.0.3-0~1708~ubuntu18.04.1 all  X2Go server 
> (printing support)
> ii  x2goserver-x2goagent   
> 4.1.0.3-0~1708~ubuntu18.04.1 amd64X2Go Server's 
> X2Go Agent
> ii  x2goserver-xsession
> 4.1.0.3-0~1708~ubuntu18.04.1 all  X2Go Server 
> (Xsession runner)
>
>
>>
>> - Available Bandwidth and type of network connection
>>   (WiFi, LAN cable; mobile network like UMTS/LTE, ...)
>
>
> Cable with at least 10Mbps to the ssh gateway, then very fast GBit LAN
> As I said, both VPN and X2GO use exactly the same connection with the same 
> bandwidth
>
>>
>>
>> By the way, if you want to basically disable X2Go compression etc.
>> completely, Connection Speed "LAN" and Compression Method "nopack" are
>> the options you are looking for.
>>
>
> I tried this and it it did not make much difference, maybe a tiny bit less  
> sluggish, but hard
> to tell .. windows are still jumpy and there are delays when opening a window 
> until it gets shown
> that are much longer than with VNC.
>
> x2goclient sessions file:
>
> [2020093412523]
> speed=3
> pack=4k-jpeg
> quality=6
> fstunnel=true
> export=
> iconvto=UTF-8
> iconvfrom=ISO8859-1
> useiconv=false
> fullscreen=false
> multidisp=false
> display=1
> maxdim=false
> rdpclient=rdesktop
> directrdpsettings=
> xdmcpclient=Xnest
> directxdmcpsettings=
> width=1550
> height=950
> dpi=96
> setdpi=true
> xinerama=false
> clipboard=both
> usekbd=true
> type=auto
> sound=true
> soundsystem=pulse
> startsoundsystem=true
> soundtunnel=true
> defsndport=true
> sndport=4713
> print=true
> name=pflaume
> icon=:/img/icons/128x128/x2gosession.png
> host=[targethostname]
> user=johann
> key=
> rdpport=3389
> sshport=22
> autologin=false
> krblogin=false
> krbdelegation=false
> directrdp=false
> directxdmcp=false
> kdrive=false
> rootless=false
> published=false
> applications=WWWBROWSER, MAILCLIENT, OFFICE, TERMINAL
> command=XFCE
> rdpoptions=
> rdpserver=
> xdmcpserver=localhost
> usesshproxy=true
> sshproxytype=SSH
> sshproxyuser=
> sshproxykeyfile=
> sshproxyhost=ssh.[somehere.org]
> sshproxyport=22
> sshproxysamepass=true
> sshproxysameuser=true
> sshproxyautologin=true
> sshproxykrblogin=false
> __

Re: [X2Go-User] x2go much slower than vnc?

2020-10-01 Thread Johann Petrak

Thanks a lot! Find all the details below!

Cheers,
  Johann

On Thu, 1 Oct 2020 at 12:52, Stefan Baur  wrote:

> Please provide us with the following:
> - Client OS and Version
>

Ubuntu 20.04


> - Version of X2GoClient (Help/About X2GoClient)
>

v. 4.1.2.2 (Qt - 4.8.7)


> - Session configuration
>   (preferably the "sessions" file/registry entries, rather than
>   screenshots)
>

I have pasted the content to the end of this email


> - Server OS and Version
>

Ubuntu 18.04.5 LTS


> - X2Go package source (your distribution's standard repo vs.
>   X2Go's stable repo vs. X2Go's nightly repo)
>

x2goserver version is 4.1.0.3-0~1708~ut
The following repo is added: http://ppa.launchpad.net/x2go/stable/ubuntu
bionic main


> - Version numbers of all X2Go/NX-related packages
>   (on Debian-based distros: dpkg -l | egrep "x2go|nx" )
>

Server:

ii  libnx-x11-6:amd64
 2:3.5.99.22-0~201908271346~ubuntu18.04.1 amd64nxagent's
libNX_X11 client-part library
ii  libx2go-log-perl
4.1.0.3-0~1708~ubuntu18.04.1 all  Perl
X2Go::Log package
ii  libx2go-server-db-perl
4.1.0.3-0~1708~ubuntu18.04.1 amd64Perl
X2Go::Server:DB package
ii  libx2go-server-perl
 4.1.0.3-0~1708~ubuntu18.04.1 all  Perl
X2Go::Server package
ii  nx-x11-common
 2:3.5.99.22-0~201908271346~ubuntu18.04.1 all  nx-X11
(common files)
ii  nxagent
 2:3.5.99.22-0~201908271346~ubuntu18.04.1 amd64Nested
Xserver (aka NX Agent) supporting the NX compression protocol
ii  x2goserver
4.1.0.3-0~1708~ubuntu18.04.1 amd64X2Go server
ii  x2goserver-common
 4.1.0.3-0~1708~ubuntu18.04.1 amd64X2Go Server
(common files)
ii  x2goserver-extensions
 4.1.0.3-0~1708~ubuntu18.04.1 all  X2Go Server
(extension support)
ii  x2goserver-fmbindings
 4.1.0.3-0~1708~ubuntu18.04.1 all  X2Go Server
(file manager bindings)
ii  x2goserver-printing
 4.1.0.3-0~1708~ubuntu18.04.1 all  X2Go server
(printing support)
ii  x2goserver-x2goagent
4.1.0.3-0~1708~ubuntu18.04.1 amd64X2Go Server's
X2Go Agent
ii  x2goserver-xsession
 4.1.0.3-0~1708~ubuntu18.04.1 all  X2Go Server
(Xsession runner)



> - Available Bandwidth and type of network connection
>   (WiFi, LAN cable; mobile network like UMTS/LTE, ...)
>

Cable with at least 10Mbps to the ssh gateway, then very fast GBit LAN
As I said, both VPN and X2GO use exactly the same connection with the same
bandwidth


>
> By the way, if you want to basically disable X2Go compression etc.
> completely, Connection Speed "LAN" and Compression Method "nopack" are
> the options you are looking for.
>
>
I tried this and it it did not make much difference, maybe a tiny bit less
sluggish, but hard
to tell .. windows are still jumpy and there are delays when opening a
window until it gets shown
that are much longer than with VNC.

x2goclient sessions file:

[2020093412523]
speed=3
pack=4k-jpeg
quality=6
fstunnel=true
export=
iconvto=UTF-8
iconvfrom=ISO8859-1
useiconv=false
fullscreen=false
multidisp=false
display=1
maxdim=false
rdpclient=rdesktop
directrdpsettings=
xdmcpclient=Xnest
directxdmcpsettings=
width=1550
height=950
dpi=96
setdpi=true
xinerama=false
clipboard=both
usekbd=true
type=auto
sound=true
soundsystem=pulse
startsoundsystem=true
soundtunnel=true
defsndport=true
sndport=4713
print=true
name=pflaume
icon=:/img/icons/128x128/x2gosession.png
host=[targethostname]
user=johann
key=
rdpport=3389
sshport=22
autologin=false
krblogin=false
krbdelegation=false
directrdp=false
directxdmcp=false
kdrive=false
rootless=false
published=false
applications=WWWBROWSER, MAILCLIENT, OFFICE, TERMINAL
command=XFCE
rdpoptions=
rdpserver=
xdmcpserver=localhost
usesshproxy=true
sshproxytype=SSH
sshproxyuser=
sshproxykeyfile=
sshproxyhost=ssh.[somehere.org]
sshproxyport=22
sshproxysamepass=true
sshproxysameuser=true
sshproxyautologin=true
sshproxykrblogin=false
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Re: [X2Go-User] Losing mouse click ability and keyboard events

2020-10-01 Thread Stefan Baur

Am 30.09.20 um 14:19 schrieb Nicolas Ecarnot:
> Hello,
> 
> The day after, I can testify that changing the power-saving settings on
> the server prevented this issue to rise again.
> I don't know if it's worth writing that somewhere in a FAQ but for the
> record, I wanted to write it here at least.

Well, for that, it would be nice to know which power-saving settings you
changed. Do you still remember them?
If you only know their French names, that's still better than nothing,
I'm sure we can figure them out somehow.

Kind Regards,
Stefan Baur


-- 
BAUR-ITCS UG (haftungsbeschränkt)
Geschäftsführer: Stefan Baur
Eichenäckerweg 10, 89081 Ulm | Registergericht Ulm, HRB 724364
Fon/Fax 0731 40 34 66-36/-35 | USt-IdNr.: DE268653243
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Re: [X2Go-User] x2go much slower than vnc?

2020-10-01 Thread Stefan Baur

Am 30.09.20 um 14:13 schrieb Johann Petrak:
> Thanks for the suggestion!
> 
> I am starting a new xfce session, and I am not bothered with the time that
> takes (XFCE starts
> up pretty fast anyway).
> But once the xfce session is established, simple tasks like opening a
> window, moving a window
> or typing text are rather sluggish in comparison to the VNC session over
> the same connection.
> For example, moving a terminal window works smoothly with VNC, but with
> x2go the window
> appears to be "jumping" along the movement.
> Then when typing into the terminal after the move, there is a delay in x2go
> until the letters
> show up in the window, while with VNC it happens immediately.
> I tried this with the default settings for speed and compression and with
> setting 4k for compression
> and LAN for speed but this did not make any discernible difference.

This sounds very wrong.

On the other hand, it is hard to debug without further info.

Please provide us with the following:
- Client OS and Version
- Version of X2GoClient (Help/About X2GoClient)
- Session configuration
  (preferably the "sessions" file/registry entries, rather than
  screenshots)
- Server OS and Version
- X2Go package source (your distribution's standard repo vs.
  X2Go's stable repo vs. X2Go's nightly repo)
- Version numbers of all X2Go/NX-related packages
  (on Debian-based distros: dpkg -l | egrep "x2go|nx" )
- Available Bandwidth and type of network connection
  (WiFi, LAN cable; mobile network like UMTS/LTE, ...)

By the way, if you want to basically disable X2Go compression etc.
completely, Connection Speed "LAN" and Compression Method "nopack" are
the options you are looking for.

Kind Regards,
Stefan Baur

-- 
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Geschäftsführer: Stefan Baur
Eichenäckerweg 10, 89081 Ulm | Registergericht Ulm, HRB 724364
Fon/Fax 0731 40 34 66-36/-35 | USt-IdNr.: DE268653243
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