Re: [Zen] Is There Anybody Out There?
I hereby "reply". Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://info.yahoo.com/legal/us/yahoo/utos/terms/
Re: [Zen] changed appearance and functionality
Is it really any different than anything else? It is seeming that the answer to any "how" or "why" question is always "How/why could/would it be any other way?" ... talk about putting the cart before the ox... Phlabbuschrontz! ~PBS On Tue, 9/10/13, desert_woodwor...@yahoo.com wrote: Subject: [Zen] changed appearance and functionality To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, September 10, 2013, 2:20 AM Bill!, and Group, I've returned and find no familiar form of the Forum. What's the deal with the pointy rooftops of the Kremlin? Why no view of things as before? Maybe all things must pass. Am I unique in being sorry about i, however? It's impossible to pick up where we left off... . Speaking for myself... . Or, I'll try to "hack" back into being the past great interface (no, not really). Howdy, all, best, --Joe Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://info.yahoo.com/legal/us/yahoo/utos/terms/
[Zen] (unknown)
Has anyone here experienced hearing their mind aloud? I mean really HEARING, not thoughts. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Is not coconut a miracle?
bullshit Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Sound Familar?
"Get on the Road to Freedom Help us free all mankind The pain and all your sorrow Are only in your mind." -Chorus of "The Road to Freedom", 1983, music & lyrics by L Ron Hubbard (performed by John Travolta, Leif Garrett, and Frank Stallone.) Applied familiarity can be dangerous! Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Re: Worried Sick..illusions
Merle, The following snippets are from your response to Bill!, but I'm going to employ license to reply to them myself :) You: "why are you so adverse to the intellect...?... it is a tool us humans need to survive" Me: To "survive" means to live to any point in the future. What is there right NOW? You:" we all know that things can get distorted through thoughts." Me: "Things" and "thoughts" are already "distortions". It is actually just one thing-thought-thing-thought cycle. Once things, already thoughts; once thoughts, already things, and vice-double-reverse-infinity-times-a-zillion-versa. You:"we experience and then we think actually this process is simultaneous... " Me: Of course it seems simultaneous, because when we THINK about "when experience happens", we really are thinking about when our thought of experience happens. Experience just happens. It is happeningnessousociteitanity. Like right now. Words fail; I can't meditate for you! Hopefully helpful, and helpfully hopeful, The PeeBSter. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Zentigration
The marionette operator is not the puppet itself, but what good is a guy hidden in the rafters above the stage with nothing attached to his strings? The shorter the strings between the puppet and the operator, the better that the puppet reflects the operator's intent. The strings have been shortened so much, that they are no longer there. The marionette act has become a ventriloquism show; the operator is no longer hidden, and manipulates the puppet by direct contact, no strings attached! Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] "It's as plain as the nose on your face" ... but how plain is that?
>>>> >>>>> That's why Bill's just this is actually "just this ILLUSION mistaken for >>>>> reality" >>>>> >>>>> True you don't experience reality like this. Because you ARE NOT >>>>> EXPERIENCING REALITY AT ALL! >>>>> >>>>> Edgar >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Jul 7, 2013, at 9:14 AM, uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Edgar, >>>>> >>>>> But you don't experience reality like that. Do you have to understand >>>>> the endocrine system to take a pee? >>>>> >>>>> Mike >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> From: Edgar Owen ; >>>>> To: ; >>>>> Subject: Re: [Zen] "It's as plain as the nose on your face" ... but how >>>>> plain is that? >>>>> Sent: Sun, Jul 7, 2013 12:58:56 PM >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Bill, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> That's very bad biology. There are 3 general stages involved. Raw >>>>> sensory experience which occurs separately in each different sense >>>>> organ. There is considerable pre-processing there where eg. edges and >>>>> motion are preferentially detected. 2nd there is perception in the optic >>>>> lobes, 3rd the brain itself makes what is perceived into objects in the >>>>> context of one's internal model of reality. >>>>> >>>>> You can't just make things up that are contrary to the way biology >>>>> actually works... >>>>> >>>>> Edgar >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Jul 7, 2013, at 8:27 AM, Bill! wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Edgar, >>>>>> >>>>>> What's causing confusion is you continue to look at experience only >>>>>> from a pluralistic POV. From a pluralistic POV there is a distinction >>>>>> between sight, sound, taste, smell and touch. From a monistic POV there >>>>>> is no distinction. It's just experience. Experience is only separated >>>>>> into the different senses when pluralism arises along with perception. >>>>>> It's then that you see, hear, taste, smell and touch. Before pluralism >>>>>> there is just experience - Just THIS! >>>>>> >>>>>> It doesn't matter if my perception is different (worse or better - like >>>>>> eyesight or hearing) than yours. For example blurry vision doesn't >>>>>> produce a different experience than clear vision. The vision being >>>>>> blurry or clear is a perception, not an experience. The same goes for >>>>>> vision and touch. If a person is blind but can feel then they are >>>>>> sentient and do experience; BUT a blind person or deaf person does not >>>>>> have the same perception as a person who sees and hears well. >>>>>> >>>>>> ...Bill! >>>>>> >>>>>> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen wrote: >>>>>> > >>>>>> > So why is the experience of you different from someone who needs >>>>>> > glasses, or a blind person? >>>>>> > >>>>>> > Which has the 'true' experience of the 'true' reality? >>>>>> > >>>>>> > Which is the true 'just this' when you have 3 different just thises? >>>>>> > >>>>>> > Edgar >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > On Jul 7, 2013, at 6:46 AM, Bill! wrote: >>>>>> > >>>>>> > > Edgar, >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > Experience (awareness of the 'real world') is not dependent upon >>>>>> > > eyeglasses, corneas or eyes. It is however dependent upon what we >>>>>> > > call senses. If you were not sentient then you could not experience >>>>>> > > and would have no awareness. >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > There would be nothing. >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > ...Bill! >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen wrote: >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > Panda, >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > Good point. Which is the REAL world Bill. With or without >>>>>> > > > glasses? With or without corneas? With or without eyes? >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > After all reality does NOT consist of focused light images of >>>>>> > > > 'things' >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > Edgar >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > On Jul 7, 2013, at 1:43 AM, pandabananasock wrote: >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > Are you wearing glasses right now? >>>>>> > > > > Can you see the frames in your periphery? >>>>>> > > > > Did you see them before I asked? >>>>>> > > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> > Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] "It's as plain as the nose on your face" ... but how plain is that?
Are you wearing glasses right now? Can you see the frames in your periphery? Did you see them before I asked? Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Huang Po on Thinking and Seeing
Chris, Your accusation of my practice of to-hell-with-it-all Zen is warranted by my last post, but not accurate. Put it this way: talking about direct experience is more difficult than trying to convey the entire Bible only through the use of shadow-puppets. All the questions and answers on this forum are like this, I suppose. That doesn't mean making shadow-puppets isn't fun for me, but it does mean that I don't mistake them for what they represent. First, shadow-puppets, then meaningless silhouettes, then shadow-puppets again. Here's a shadow-puppet: let the present moment be your teacher, and don't learn a damn thing from it! How DARE you accuse me of talking smack about my beloved forum?!? ;-) -PBS -- On Sat, Jul 6, 2013 11:40 AM EDT Chris Austin-Lane wrote: >It sounds like the forum is not an entertaining pass time for you? > >Personally I occasionally find gems of language like "the toilet bowl of >samsara". This phrase particularly resonates with me as I live in a place >with my two kids and only one toilet and last night i had to break out the >plunger and the full suite of household towels during dinner preparation >with guests. > >Thanks, >--Chris >301-270-6524 > On Jul 5, 2013 11:36 PM, wrote: > >> >> Yes, I would say our perceptions are analogies... IMO they are only >> analogies of each other, all circular-like and what-have-you. This is why >> they are delusions, to use your term -- right there, an example; >> terminology: just as all of our perceptions are only analogies of each >> other, all of our words are only defined words that are defined by words, >> ad infinitum. From the fractal nature of the universe, all the way to the >> senses themselves being analogies of each other. >> >> If Zen was listed on your "Religions Explained" post, I'd write in "Same >> shit, new flies." >> >> and so what, we turn to posting more analogies online about pointing to >> moons, and beggars, and birds, and frogs, and math, and mountains, and >> clapping hand(s)... We contemplate, debate, and masturbate, and I suppose >> this is a the part where I make a hungry ghost analogy. Samara, >> enlightenment, illusion, experience, awakening, reality, and zen are all >> just analogies too. We make analogies about Buddha nature, as if a "check" >> to see if we have it or if we do not have it. Great. >> >> Here's another analogy: a turd swirling the toilet bowl of samsara. Bah, >> humbug! ;-) >> >> >> On Fri, 7/5/13, Bill! wrote: >> >> Subject: Re: [Zen] Huang Po on Thinking and Seeing >> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com >> Date: Friday, July 5, 2013, 9:08 PM >> >> PBS, >> >> In fact you could say that most of our perceptions are like >> analogies themselves...Bill! >> >> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, >> pandabananasock@... wrote: >> > >> > >> > Bill!, >> > It takes one to know one! >> > ~PeeBeeEss >> > >> > >> > -- >> > On Fri, Jul 5, 2013 10:30 AM EDT Bill! wrote: >> > >> > >PBS, >> > > >> > >Good analogy! >> > > >> > >...Bill! >> > > >> > >--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, >> pandabananasock@ wrote: >> > > >> > > >> > > Perception, delusion, thought... these >> are all based on each other. Experience just IS. You can't >> think of anything you don't already know -- thoughts that >> feel new are just new combinations of pieces of old >> knowledge. >> > > >> > > When we do experience "experience", mind >> is aware of it, and does what it does best, which is to >> 'realize' it (VERY quickly, too). At this point, it is no >> longer 'experience'. >> > > >> > > It's like going bird-watching; you >> quietly sneak upon a beautiful specimen. As you slowly reach >> for your binoculars, your dumb-ass buddy shouts, "HEY!! >> THERE'S ONE UP THERE!!! HURRY, IT'S FLYING AWAY FOR SOME >> REASON!! WHY IS IT THAT EVERY TIME I SEE A BIRD IT FLIES >> AWAY?!?!" >> > > >> > > Your buddy really believes the bird is >> flying away because it was seen; he is confusing his >> identifying shouts for the act of seeing the bird. You'd >> have a much easier
Re: [Zen] Re: Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma
Chris, I should have worded my response, "Mind minds mind". What's the point of trying to conceptualize monistic experience when it's already right there? It reminds me of people at concerts who watch the show on their iPhone screens as they record it. -PBS On Sat, 7/6/13, Chris Austin-Lane wrote: Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, July 6, 2013, 1:13 AM And PBS, was there some non-rhetorical point about mind moves? Other than the joke about mouths flapping? Do you also have some concept of monistic experience which excludes what may post hoc be called an appreciation for the richness the trip? Thanks, --Chris 301-270-6524 Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Huang Po on Thinking and Seeing
Yes, I would say our perceptions are analogies... IMO they are only analogies of each other, all circular-like and what-have-you. This is why they are delusions, to use your term -- right there, an example; terminology: just as all of our perceptions are only analogies of each other, all of our words are only defined words that are defined by words, ad infinitum. From the fractal nature of the universe, all the way to the senses themselves being analogies of each other. If Zen was listed on your "Religions Explained" post, I'd write in "Same shit, new flies." and so what, we turn to posting more analogies online about pointing to moons, and beggars, and birds, and frogs, and math, and mountains, and clapping hand(s)... We contemplate, debate, and masturbate, and I suppose this is a the part where I make a hungry ghost analogy. Samara, enlightenment, illusion, experience, awakening, reality, and zen are all just analogies too. We make analogies about Buddha nature, as if a "check" to see if we have it or if we do not have it. Great. Here's another analogy: a turd swirling the toilet bowl of samsara. Bah, humbug! ;-) On Fri, 7/5/13, Bill! wrote: Subject: Re: [Zen] Huang Po on Thinking and Seeing To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, July 5, 2013, 9:08 PM PBS, In fact you could say that most of our perceptions are like analogies themselves...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, pandabananasock@... wrote: > > > Bill!, > It takes one to know one! > ~PeeBeeEss > > > -- > On Fri, Jul 5, 2013 10:30 AM EDT Bill! wrote: > > >PBS, > > > >Good analogy! > > > >...Bill! > > > >--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, pandabananasock@ wrote: > >> > >> > >> Perception, delusion, thought... these are all based on each other. Experience just IS. You can't think of anything you don't already know -- thoughts that feel new are just new combinations of pieces of old knowledge. > >> > >> When we do experience "experience", mind is aware of it, and does what it does best, which is to 'realize' it (VERY quickly, too). At this point, it is no longer 'experience'. > >> > >> It's like going bird-watching; you quietly sneak upon a beautiful specimen. As you slowly reach for your binoculars, your dumb-ass buddy shouts, "HEY!! THERE'S ONE UP THERE!!! HURRY, IT'S FLYING AWAY FOR SOME REASON!! WHY IS IT THAT EVERY TIME I SEE A BIRD IT FLIES AWAY?!?!" > >> > >> Your buddy really believes the bird is flying away because it was seen; he is confusing his identifying shouts for the act of seeing the bird. You'd have a much easier time (effortless, in fact) if you went to the woods by yourself, but your buddy is the one with the car! > >> > >> > >> -- > >> On Fri, Jul 5, 2013 9:48 AM EDT Bill! wrote: > >> > >> >Merle, > >> > > >> >First of all perceptions are neither good or bad, they're just delusional. There only 'bad' if you form attachments to them (believe they are real). > >> > > >> >In the quote my interpretations is 'seeing' is experience and 'thinking' is perception and other intellectual activities. > >> > > >> >The quote is: > >> > > >> >"The foolish reject what they see and not what they think;..." > >> > > >> >This to me a caution about placing more importance in thinking than experience. > >> > > >> >"..the wise reject what they think and not what they see." > >> > > >> >This to me is an encouragement to put less importance on what you think and more on what you experience. > >> > > >> >...Bill! > >> > > >> >--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester wrote: > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> >  > >> >  seeing is good > >> >  thinking is bad... > >> > is this the correct perception ?.. > >> > merle > >> > > >> > > >> >  > >> > This is mainly for Merle. > >> > > >> > I thought it might help if I enlisted a little help from one of my buddies... > >> > > >> > > >> > ...Bill! > >> > > >> > > >&
Re: [Zen] Re: Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma
ne >> wrote: >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > The thing I like about math as a source of analogies for zen >> is that it >> > > > > > > shows how two different things csn br exactly the same. >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > Linear equations over reals are lines. Lines are linear >> equations. >> > > > > > > Numbers, points, the constituents drop away as the eternal >> unity is seen. >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > Thanks, >> > > > > > > --Chris >> > > > > > > 301-270-6524 >> > > > > > > On Jul 3, 2013 8:12 AM, wrote: >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Bill!: >> > > > > > > > You're gonna ignore the math? I thought you said you were >> looking for an >> > > > > > > > impersonal language a couple posts ago... :D >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > The thing about using math that way is that eventually it >> leads you back >> > > > > > > > to the beginning. We use mathematics as an expression of the >> model, then >> > > > > > > > we use the model as an expression of the math. Then we >> realize that both >> > > > > > > > are models of each other and the same, and experience >> encompasses all -- no >> > > > > > > > need for anything else. Rivers and mountains become rivers >> and mountains >> > > > > > > > again! >> > > > > > > > ~PeeBeeEss >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > On Wed, 7/3/13, Bill! wrote: >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of >> Cause-and-Effect and >> > > > > > > > Karma >> > > > > > > > To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com >> > > > > > > > Date: Wednesday, July 3, 2013, 8:56 AM >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > PBS (That's going to be my TLA (Three >> > > > > > > > Letter Acronym) for Pandabananasock from now on)... >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > I'll ignore all the math but do agree that JUST IF there is >> > > > > > > > such a think that could be called 'karma' it's not so much a >> > > > > > > > moralistic cause-and-effect as it is an intrinsic quality of >> > > > > > > > the act itself. >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > But, I'll continue to poo-poo all claims of karma. >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > ...Bill! >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, >> > > > > > > > pandabananasock@ wrote: >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > Most people think of "1+1=2" as procedural, that is, >> > > > > > > > that there is 1, THEN we add 1 to it, THEN it becomes >> > > > > > > > 2. They would regard "2=1+1" and "2=2" to be different >> > > > > > > > equations, but they are not in the least bit >> > > > > > > > different. The equal-sign is the present. >> > > > > > > > > "1+1" is already 2! And the effect IS the >> > > > > > > > cause. Your karmic punishment for doing something >> > > > > > > > "bad" is you doing that "bad" thing. Your karmic >> > > > > > > > reward for doing something "good" is you doing that "good" >> > > > > > > > thing. Forget the come-back-to-bite-you BS! >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > -- >> > > > > > > > > On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 4:58 AM EDT Bill! wrote: >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >...Bill! >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have >> > > > > > > > read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups >> > > > > > > > Links >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have >> read or are >> > > > > > > > reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are >> reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links >> >> >> >> Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Huang Po on Thinking and Seeing
Bill!, It takes one to know one! ~PeeBeeEss -- On Fri, Jul 5, 2013 10:30 AM EDT Bill! wrote: >PBS, > >Good analogy! > >...Bill! > >--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, pandabananasock@... wrote: >> >> >> Perception, delusion, thought... these are all based on each other. >> Experience just IS. You can't think of anything you don't already know -- >> thoughts that feel new are just new combinations of pieces of old knowledge. >> >> When we do experience "experience", mind is aware of it, and does what it >> does best, which is to 'realize' it (VERY quickly, too). At this point, it >> is no longer 'experience'. >> >> It's like going bird-watching; you quietly sneak upon a beautiful specimen. >> As you slowly reach for your binoculars, your dumb-ass buddy shouts, "HEY!! >> THERE'S ONE UP THERE!!! HURRY, IT'S FLYING AWAY FOR SOME REASON!! WHY IS IT >> THAT EVERY TIME I SEE A BIRD IT FLIES AWAY?!?!" >> >> Your buddy really believes the bird is flying away because it was seen; he >> is confusing his identifying shouts for the act of seeing the bird. You'd >> have a much easier time (effortless, in fact) if you went to the woods by >> yourself, but your buddy is the one with the car! >> >> >> -- >> On Fri, Jul 5, 2013 9:48 AM EDT Bill! wrote: >> >> >Merle, >> > >> >First of all perceptions are neither good or bad, they're just delusional. >> >There only 'bad' if you form attachments to them (believe they are real). >> > >> >In the quote my interpretations is 'seeing' is experience and 'thinking' >> >is perception and other intellectual activities. >> > >> >The quote is: >> > >> >"The foolish reject what they see and not what they think;..." >> > >> >This to me a caution about placing more importance in thinking than >> >experience. >> > >> >"..the wise reject what they think and not what they see." >> > >> >This to me is an encouragement to put less importance on what you think >> >and more on what you experience. >> > >> >...Bill! >> > >> >--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester wrote: >> > >> > >> > >> >  >> >  seeing is good >> >  thinking is bad... >> > is this the correct perception ?.. >> > merle >> > >> > >> >  >> > This is mainly for Merle. >> > >> > I thought it might help if I enlisted a little help from one of my >> > buddies... >> > >> > >> > ...Bill! >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are >> >reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > >Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are >reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links > > > Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Huang Po on Thinking and Seeing
Perception, delusion, thought... these are all based on each other. Experience just IS. You can't think of anything you don't already know -- thoughts that feel new are just new combinations of pieces of old knowledge. When we do experience "experience", mind is aware of it, and does what it does best, which is to 'realize' it (VERY quickly, too). At this point, it is no longer 'experience'. It's like going bird-watching; you quietly sneak upon a beautiful specimen. As you slowly reach for your binoculars, your dumb-ass buddy shouts, "HEY!! THERE'S ONE UP THERE!!! HURRY, IT'S FLYING AWAY FOR SOME REASON!! WHY IS IT THAT EVERY TIME I SEE A BIRD IT FLIES AWAY?!?!" Your buddy really believes the bird is flying away because it was seen; he is confusing his identifying shouts for the act of seeing the bird. You'd have a much easier time (effortless, in fact) if you went to the woods by yourself, but your buddy is the one with the car! -- On Fri, Jul 5, 2013 9:48 AM EDT Bill! wrote: >Merle, > >First of all perceptions are neither good or bad, they're just delusional. >There only 'bad' if you form attachments to them (believe they are real). > >In the quote my interpretations is 'seeing' is experience and 'thinking' is >perception and other intellectual activities. > >The quote is: > >"The foolish reject what they see and not what they think;..." > >This to me a caution about placing more importance in thinking than >experience. > >"..the wise reject what they think and not what they see." > >This to me is an encouragement to put less importance on what you think and >more on what you experience. > >...Bill! > >--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester wrote: >> >> >> >>  >>  seeing is good >>  thinking is bad... >> is this the correct perception ?.. >> merle >> >> >>  >> This is mainly for Merle. >> >> I thought it might help if I enlisted a little help from one of my >> buddies... >> >> >> ...Bill! >> > > > > > > >Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are >reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links > > > Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Re: Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma
Math is just the world of delusion, except after the play, out of character, backstage giving an interview. Just like anything else, we regard it, and it reflects back whatever mental framework we use to regard it in the first place. Haiku (I posted this YEARS ago): Strike a bell with wood. Strike it again with metal. One bell; two noises. Math is the only thing which can comprehensively describe our experiences, but 'description' is not 'experience'. Trade your purpose for your beingness, stand back and let it resolve. Water, non-sentient, does not need to calculate the path of least resistance, it simply and immediately flows, never failing to take the path of least resistance. The thought of an upside-down cup of water hesitating to spill until it works out the fastest way to the ground... "Experience" just IS Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma
All the formerly discarded peripheral vision; the AC turns on and the ventilation sings its shape through the drywall; the left hand has never felt so useless -- I am making progress; time to start over.Whoa, now I gotta pee... no choice but to get up or piss myself. Now I feel stupid for thinking I was doing the right thing by ignoring those cramps and itches that I sat through, thinking I was more enlightened for not scratching. I am making progress; time to start over. -- On Thu, Jul 4, 2013 3:47 AM EDT Merle Lester wrote: > bill..i disagree..mathematics, art and music... no i will not include esperanto..you have to learn that and an australian aboriginal would not have this opportunity...that's one example... > explain to me why maths art and music are not "universal languages"..i might just include architecture as well... >i fail to see your logic in this > and realisation and awakening also is universal > as it comes from deep inside the very Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Shunryu Suzuki's on Ego
Great quote, Bill!! May I compliment?"Art is as close as you can get to perfection without getting caught in the wake" -- Captain BeefheartIt would seem that the small amount of ego that we need is also large enough for everything we want. (Run it both ways)No need to shed ego, and no need to expand it. In fact, neither can actually be done! Zen is its own distraction.-- On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 9:49 PM EDT Bill! wrote: >I can't remember who it is that always asks me about stepping in front >of a bus when talking about delusions. I think it is Edgar, but it >might have been Anthony or even someone else. Anyway I've found a good >reply to that from Shunryu Suzuki: >"Q: How much "ego" do you need?A: Just enough so that you >don't step in front of a bus." >- Shunryu Suzuki > > >...Bill! Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma
I AM ! On Wed, 7/3/13, Bill! wrote: Subject: Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, July 3, 2013, 9:32 PM PBS, Then by all means, Just EAT! ...Bill! Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma
Neither should the "reality" it represents be mistaken for experience. Fuck zen, I'm hungry! On Wed, 7/3/13, Bill! wrote: Subject: Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, July 3, 2013, 8:10 PM PBS, Math, logic, reason like all delusions should come with the caveat 'suitable for everyday use'. As a universal human language to communicate our logical concepts it's very useful, but it should never be mistaken for reality. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > Bill!: > You're gonna ignore the math? I thought you said you were looking for an impersonal language a couple posts ago... :D > > The thing about using math that way is that eventually it leads you back to the beginning. We use mathematics as an expression of the model, then we use the model as an expression of the math. Then we realize that both are models of each other and the same, and experience encompasses all -- no need for anything else. Rivers and mountains become rivers and mountains again! > ~PeeBeeEss > > > On Wed, 7/3/13, Bill! wrote: > > Subject: Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma > To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com > Date: Wednesday, July 3, 2013, 8:56 AM > > PBS (That's going to be my TLA (Three > Letter Acronym) for Pandabananasock from now on)... > > I'll ignore all the math but do agree that JUST IF there is > such a think that could be called 'karma' it's not so much a > moralistic cause-and-effect as it is an intrinsic quality of > the act itself. > > But, I'll continue to poo-poo all claims of karma. > > ...Bill! > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, > pandabananasock@ wrote: > > > > > > Most people think of "1+1=2" as procedural, that is, > that there is 1, THEN we add 1 to it, THEN it becomes > 2. They would regard "2=1+1" and "2=2" to be different > equations, but they are not in the least bit > different. The equal-sign is the present. > > "1+1" is already 2! And the effect IS the > cause. Your karmic punishment for doing something > "bad" is you doing that "bad" thing. Your karmic > reward for doing something "good" is you doing that "good" > thing. Forget the come-back-to-bite-you BS! > > > > > > -- > > On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 4:58 AM EDT Bill! wrote: > > > > > > > >...Bill! > > > > > > > > > Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have > read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups > Links > > > zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com > Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Intellectualizing -
Gotta love music audio art : visual art :: time : space sound : light :: notes : color tone : hue :: pitch : brightness On Wed, 7/3/13, Merle Lester wrote: Subject: Re: [Zen] Intellectualizing - To: "Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com" Date: Wednesday, July 3, 2013, 8:50 AM hi joe... music is the universal language of love some would say... the brilliance of written musical notes is that it is a universal language and brings us closer to the realisation we are all ONE i would say to your friend..we are all ONE some have one cousin some have many at the end of the day we are all ONE... cousins on the tree of life ( i have not been well..have a chest infection doc is concerned it might have led to pneumonia... am on penicillin as i type) merle Hi, Merle, Welcome back to the Agora. A funny thing happened on the way to the Food Court... what was that about fruits, now? My creativity works in fits and starts. And it's all for a good cause, if not always for a good effect. It takes two; or a village, I forget. BTW, I couldn't read music for a time, but could still make noises; then, I could read music, play the 'cello, play violin, play guitar, play bass (guit.), play Bari. Ukelele. Play Kalimba. It's still noise. Writing music is probably more important than reading music; there are Transcriptionists for that (writing). Music is in the fingers, and ears. Some say in the feet, and in the shimmy-shimmy-shake. I'm a poor dancer; getting better. My use of "Apples and Oranges" was the most creative you've seen in at least 180 months, I'd wager. Go ahead and admit it here, thereby to absolve everything. Good to see you again. Earlier today, I recounted some stories about you to a Detective friend here, and called you my "cussin' Cousin". She larfed! And wanted to be cussin'-cousins with me, too. But I told her I never reciprocated (vis-a-vis cussin'). I think she's showing herself to be just a little of the jealous type. Be well, now, --Joe > Merle Lester wrote: > > joe...not the apple and oranges sing song..be more creative..merle > > Chris, > > I'd answer, "No." > > Form and style and content are emptiness. > > Content is content. Style is style. > > Apples and oranges are conjoined with a conjunction, not an equals-sign; otherwise, so-much for "diversity". > > --Joe > > > Chris Austin-Lane wrote: > > > > Form is nothing [snip] Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Intellectualizing -
The form of this thread has demonstrated its own content. It is its own example. Beautiful! On Wed, 7/3/13, Bill! wrote: Subject: Re: [Zen] Intellectualizing - To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, July 3, 2013, 10:04 AM Edgar, If I do as you state "nearly always say it's OUR experience and illusions are in YOUR mind..." then I apologize because that's not what I mean to say - and in fact I don't think that is what I do say. In any event I will take more care in the future when describing such things. As far as your post all I can say is "Nice try". I too was hoping to get some kind of agreement or at least understanding, but what you've written is not it. You start out okay: "The true view is that experience PRIOR TO THE DUALISM OF EXPERIENCER AND EXPERIENCED is the only truth and the only reality." I agree although I wouldn't use the terms "experiencer and experienced" because I believe 'experience' to be monistic. I would use the pluralistc terms 'perceiver and perceived'. But that's just a nit pick. However, then you go on to say "Thus experience is NOT in YOUR mind. And illusions are NOT in your mind." My version would be that 'experience' is NOT in your mind because when there is just 'experience' there is only monism and therefore there is no 'you' nor 'mind'. Once however the delusion of pluralism arises there is a delusion of 'you', and a delusion of a 'mind', and this mind does have delusions called 'perceptions'. So you (or I) could say 'these 'delusions' or 'perceptions' (plural) are in 'your' or 'our' 'mind'. I'm familar with the zen aphroism 'first there is a mountain...'. For me and in the terms we've been discussing it means 'First there are delusions that I think are real. Then there are no delusions. Then there are delusions again but now I recognize them as delusions.' ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen wrote: > > Bill, > > I agree with that but that is not the way you say it. You nearly always say it's OUR experience and illusions are in YOUR mind... That's solipsism, not Zen... > > The true view is that experience PRIOR TO THE DUALISM OF EXPERIENCER AND EXPERIENCED is the only truth and the only reality. > > Thus experience is NOT in YOUR mind. And illusions are NOT in your mind. They both just appear, and one of those illusions is a you having a mind > > Do we now agree on that at least? > > However the additional truth and reality that you can't seem to grasp is that this means that everything without exception is real including all illusions but only recognized as the illusions they are. > > Only in this way do mountains become mountains again which is a core teaching in Zen > > Edgar > > > > On Jul 3, 2013, at 2:28 AM, Bill! wrote: > > > Edgar, > > > > No, I'm not assuming it's a pluralistic experience as I know you do. I may use language and sentence structures that describe it pluralistically, but I try conscientiously to avoid that. > > > > I looked in my post below and didn't see anywhere that I'd used the phrase "our experience of", but I'm not claiming I never have. > > > > I try to just use the word 'experience' without assigning any modifiers or objects. I also try to do this with 'Buddha Nature'. For example I don't say 'our Buddha Nature', I just say 'Buddha Nature'. But back to 'experience'. > > > > Experience is just experience. Since it monistic there is no subject or object. > > - You shouldn't use the adjective pronouns 'my' or 'your' or 'ours'. If you did you'd be creating a pluralistic group of subjects. > > - Similarly you shouldn't use a following conjunction like 'of' which expects an object. It's just 'experience'. > > > > I know I have in the past used the phrase 'experience of Buddha Nature', but that should just be 'experience' or 'Buddha Nature', but not even 'experience Buddha Nature' because even that does imply a subject (an experiencer) and an object (Buddha Nature). > > > > Most of these difficulties come up because of trying to describe monism using a language that's based on dualism. Language is based on dualism because it's evolved to communicate intellectually. If you wanted to communicate sensually (which is the sole basis of experience) and avoid intellectualizations (which is the sole basis of desusions) you'd have to do so sensually - like a slap on the face or a shout. > > > > And I haven't figured out how to do that yet on a text-based forum such as this. > > > > As always thanks for your comment and question...Bill! > > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen wrote: > >> > >> Bill, > >> > >> But what is 'our' experience 'of'? > >> > >> That seems to be the core problem... You don't seem to get the point that by claiming it's 'our' experience you already
Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma
Bill!: You're gonna ignore the math? I thought you said you were looking for an impersonal language a couple posts ago... :D The thing about using math that way is that eventually it leads you back to the beginning. We use mathematics as an expression of the model, then we use the model as an expression of the math. Then we realize that both are models of each other and the same, and experience encompasses all -- no need for anything else. Rivers and mountains become rivers and mountains again! ~PeeBeeEss On Wed, 7/3/13, Bill! wrote: Subject: Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, July 3, 2013, 8:56 AM PBS (That's going to be my TLA (Three Letter Acronym) for Pandabananasock from now on)... I'll ignore all the math but do agree that JUST IF there is such a think that could be called 'karma' it's not so much a moralistic cause-and-effect as it is an intrinsic quality of the act itself. But, I'll continue to poo-poo all claims of karma. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, pandabananasock@... wrote: > > > Most people think of "1+1=2" as procedural, that is, that there is 1, THEN we add 1 to it, THEN it becomes 2. They would regard "2=1+1" and "2=2" to be different equations, but they are not in the least bit different. The equal-sign is the present. > "1+1" is already 2! And the effect IS the cause. Your karmic punishment for doing something "bad" is you doing that "bad" thing. Your karmic reward for doing something "good" is you doing that "good" thing. Forget the come-back-to-bite-you BS! > > > -- > On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 4:58 AM EDT Bill! wrote: > > > > >...Bill! > Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Buddhist Shell around Zen
Burn the Sanghas down, with all their books inside. Ash is wonderful for gardens! -- On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 5:29 AM EDT Bill! wrote: >This is what I was trying to say about Buddhism... > >...Bill! Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma
Most people think of "1+1=2" as procedural, that is, that there is 1, THEN we add 1 to it, THEN it becomes 2. They would regard "2=1+1" and "2=2" to be different equations, but they are not in the least bit different. The equal-sign is the present. "1+1" is already 2! And the effect IS the cause. Your karmic punishment for doing something "bad" is you doing that "bad" thing. Your karmic reward for doing something "good" is you doing that "good" thing. Forget the come-back-to-bite-you BS! -- On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 4:58 AM EDT Bill! wrote: > >...Bill! Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Re: Intellectualizing -
Thought : Experience :: Masturbation : Sex Bill the the cartoon character whose crazy buddy says "Thanks, I needed that" after Bill slaps him. By the way, does anyone else see the humor: Bill posts about the frivolity of intellectualizing, and people immediately start ripping his semantics to shreds. Did anyone even READ his post, or did they just do as most people in conversation, which is to count down the seconds until the other person stops talking so that their own point can be made? Do you also complain that a painting of a fire gives no actual heat or light? There is no mindfulness to be found on this forum, only signposts, and a sign is not the place to which it points (except the one that says "If you lived here, you'd be home by now!) On Tue, 7/2/13, Bill! wrote: Subject: [Zen] Re: Intellectualizing - To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, July 2, 2013, 6:03 AM ABSOLUTELY! Although I'd even drop the list of "see, hear, touch, taste, smell,*" and just use the word 'experience'. When you're just experiencing (Buddha Nature) there is no discrimination between seeing, hearing, touching, tasting and smelling. It's all Just THIS! * I've intentionally left out "think" because I do not consider that an experience and not part of Buddha Nature. I know that's not orthodox, but that's what I have experienced and now believe. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "pudgala2" wrote: > > > As soon as you see something, > The unenlightened only see what their preconditioned constituent > sentient beings (beliefs, attitudes, opinions, moods, values, etc.) will > allow or force them to see and nothing more, > > you already start to intellectualize it. > sentient beings automatically process it. > > > As soon as you intellectualize something, > As soon as sentient beings process something, > > it is no longer what you saw. > only the mental results of what sentient beings made up your mind to see > will be seen. > > > The Enlightened see, hear, touch, taste, smell, and think immediately > without opinionated processing. > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "Bill!" wrote: > > > As soon as you see something, you already start to intellectualize it. > As soon as you intellectualize something, it is no longer what you saw. > ~ Sunryu Suzuki > > I call these intellectualizations 'perceptions' or 'delusions'. > ...Bill! > Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Re: The Samsarashank Redemption
That's just it, though. It doesn't matter how, and the why is always the same. You only 'escape' into fugitivery. Crazy part is, you're the warden! Why the hell are you in a cell working on escape plans?! On Fri, 6/28/13, Joe wrote: Subject: [Zen] Re: The Samsarashank Redemption To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, June 28, 2013, 9:10 PM PBS, I think it's right. It depends on what one escapes into, and maybe even on how, and why. Or if escape is the truth of the matter. Any other pointers, perfume advisories, or menu recommendations? I'm having my birthday cake in 30 minutes. Be free, healthy, in the Dharma, --Joe > "pandabananasock" wrote: > > He who can escape every single time he is imprisoned is still not free Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] The Samsarashank Redemption
He who can escape every single time he is imprisoned is still not free Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] CHAKRA COLORS AND MEANINGS
Reading about how to become rich will keep you poor, and 99% of those books are worthless anyway. I bet I could go to five different chakra specialists, and get five different "diagnoses". Books about zen, etc, are best used as a seat cushion. That goes for this forum as well. Let's not put the cart in front of the horse! -- On Wed, Jun 26, 2013 12:42 AM EDT Joe wrote: >PBS, > >Thanks! > >Good to see you again. > >Better than hold our noses. Our horses. > >What comes to mind? > >--Joe > >> pandabananasock@... wrote: >> >> Hold yer horses! > > > > > > >Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are >reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links > > > Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] CHAKRA COLORS AND MEANINGS
Hold yer horses! Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: When it comes to handedness
Right on! Vey good! :D --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "Joe" wrote: > > Panda, > > Yes, everything just keeps on changing. > > > Even the name-calling at least was more funny! > > Case in point, I've just started calling one of my cats, "Lefty". > > For no good reason. I thought it was funny to think of an animal with > handedness. He doesn't seem to mind, but neither does he answer to the new > name. Just as well, the name might just last the day, only. Tomorrow's > another day, they say! > > --Joe > > > "pandabananasock" wrote: > > > > There used to be more "pitching in" and less "pronouncements" on this > > forum, to use your terms. > > Even the name-calling at least was more funny! > Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] (unknown)
There used to be more "pitching in" and less "pronouncements" on this forum, to use your terms. Even the name-calling at least was more funny! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "Joe" wrote: > > Panda., > PS But you speak from the point of view of Awakening. In our Way, one comes > back all the same, anyhow, and uses your ten-thousand arms and all those > eyes, and does Yeoman's work (ha, as if you could avoid it!), even though > everybody else is not fooling you (not able to fool you); they just don't > know that they are *trying* to fool you. To play the game, it's better to > pitch in, than to make pronouncements. As you've pitched-in here! TNX, and > howdy. --J. > > > "pandabananasock" wrote: > > > > but what problem? Both: nobody to be saved, and nothing to save them from. > > Samsara and not-samsara. Only "Is-ness", without the "Is", or the "ness", > > and without the "without". No enlightenment, nobody to be enlightened. > > SPLABBERT! Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] (unknown)
but what problem? Both: nobody to be saved, and nothing to save them from. Samsara and not-samsara. Only "Is-ness", without the "Is", or the "ness", and without the "without". No enlightenment, nobody to be enlightened. SPLABBERT! Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Re: Guided Meditation with Joseph Goldstein - YouTube
Time and place aside, the key is to meditate while breathing, not to breathe while meditating. The only exception is when it's the other way around. Good times! --- On Mon, 8/6/12, Joe wrote: > From: Joe > Subject: [Zen] Re: Guided Meditation with Joseph Goldstein - YouTube > To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com > Date: Monday, August 6, 2012, 8:23 PM > Definitely a time and a place for > that, if you think. > > --Joe > > > wrote: > > > > The best guide for meditation is one's own breathing> > > > > Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] It takes one to know one
There's been a lot of hair-splitting on the forum. Noisy. When it comes to contemplation, doubt is clarity. When it comes to practice, sit, breathe, be. ... hell, laugh! We should all be laughing hysterically!! We're all done!!! Imagine how silly a person would look if they were in a dark room using a flashlight to search the dark room for the flashlight that they're using, and getting pissed off about it.. ... in a dark room using a flashlight to search the dark room for the flashlight that they're using to search the dark room for the flashlight that they're using to search the dark room for the flashlight that they're using to search the dark room for the flashlight that they're using to search the dark room for the flashlight that they're using to search the dark room for the flashlight that they're using to search the dark room for the flashlight that they're using to search the dark room for the flashlight that they're using to search the dark room for the flashlight that they're using to search the dark room for the flashlight that they're using to search the dark room for the flashlight that they're using to search the dark room for the flashlight that they're using to search the dark room for the flashlight that they're using to search the dark room for the flashlight that they're using to search the dark room for the flashlight that they're using to search the dark room for the flashlight that they're using to search the dark room for the flashlight that they're using to search the dark room for the flashlight that they're using to search the dark room for the flashlight that they're using to search the dark room for the flashlight that they're using to search the dark room for the flashlight that they're using to search the dark room for the flashlight that they're using to search the dark room for the flashlight that they're using to search the dark room for the flashlight that they're using to search the dark room for the flashlight that they're using to search the dark room for the flashlight that they're using to search the dark room for the flashlight that they're using... Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Re: Guided Meditation with Joseph Goldstein - YouTube
The best guide for meditation is one's own breathing
Re: [Zen] Re: Haikus
" , but !"
Re: [Zen] Re: Subject??
Thanks, Bill. I did mean to add "except that others may hear". Stop trying so hard, everyone! Drop the hierarchy and the charts and the lists and the steps and the wheels and everything else. Tear them off the walls! They are like childrens' drawings: very poor quality, but still earning a loving smile from parents and a spot on the refrigerator for display. --- On Sun, 4/8/12, Bill! wrote: > From: Bill! > Subject: [Zen] Re: Subject?? > To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com > Date: Sunday, April 8, 2012, 6:44 AM > So others may hear also... > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, > "pandabananasock" wrote: > > > > > > HA! My ears already ringing from themselves the > sound of enlightenment, listening to them, why should I say > anything at all? > > > > > > > > > Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have > read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups > Links > > > zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com > > Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Subject??
HA! My ears already ringing from themselves the sound of enlightenment, listening to them, why should I say anything at all? Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Dear Bill
"Bill!", It's been over three years. Did you forget again? ~Panda --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > Panda, > > > > Sorry! I did forget. I'll start digging today! .Bill! > > > > From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf > Of pandabananasock > Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2008 4:31 AM > To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [Zen] Dear Bill > > > > I hope you have not forgotten to dig up that material you have been > working on regarding time/cause&effect. What it something I said?? > > Really though, if you are still willing to share, I'd still love to > take a look! > > P-P-P-Panda > > > > __ NOD32 3224 (20080627) Information __ > > This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. > http://www.eset.com > Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Hermetica on the nature of human divinity
This is passage 25 of chapter 10 of the Corpus Hermeticum. Some may find the language to be grainy, but take it in connotation [(what's the difference from anything else, right?)] Zero, One, primes, composites, but only "here" (mind-world) do all exist, if only separated by time. A statement of the uniquity of the human condition outside of plot, setting, character, and context is refreshing, so I thought I'd share: "For none of the heavenly gods will go down to the earth, leaving behind the bounds of heaven, yet the human rises up to heaven and takes its measure and knows what is in its hights and its depths, and he understands all else exactly and - greater than all of this - he comes to be on high WITHOUT leaving earth behind; so enormous is his range. Therefore, we must dare to say that the human on earth is a mortal god, but that god in heaven is an immortal human. Through these TWO, cosmos and human, all things exist, but they all exist by action of the ONE." ...nothin' but net! ~ Fidd Chewley Practice doesn't make perfect. Perfect practice makes perfect. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: why I'm here
HA!!! thanks --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "Bill!" wrote: > > Pandabananasock: > > Parts of your post below reminded me of one of my favorite short stories. I > read it many, many years ago and can't give you the title or author but the > story line is... > > There was man named John who wanted to know the secrets of the forest where > he lived. He set up 100s of audio recorders, throughout the forest to record > the sounds. After recording for a few days he collected them all and began > to start consolidating them. He recorded all of them on one track. It was > unitelligble and just sounded like a lot of murmurs and hisses. Then he > compacted that one track down into just a few seconds. The result was > clearly audible sound: > > 'John'... Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: why I'm here
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Mel wrote:
>
> That's what I like about Zen, but you still haven't taught anything here.
> However, I'll view some more of your postings. The Zen Buddhist monks I've
> come across face-to-face tend to be quite direct and straightforward, but
> without any grandstanding or making spectacles of themselves. Take care that
> you don't put too much of the attention on your dualistic self. Bow with the
> Buddha, be Buddha
> Â
> in Buddha's grace
> Mel
> That's what I like about Zen, but you still haven't taught anything here.
> However, I'll view some more of your postings. The Zen Buddhist monks I've
> come across face-to-face tend to be quite direct and straightforward, but
> without any grandstanding or making spectacles of themselves. Take care that
> you don't put too much of the attention on your dualistic self. Bow with the
> Buddha, be Buddha
> Â
> in Buddha's grace
> Mel
I'm not trying to teach anything. I have nothing to teach, and I don't mean
that in an "enlightened" manner, I REALLY have NOTHING to teach. I will
continue posting my very small, inoffensive posts until kicked out of the
group. I will not fight being kicked out should this circumstances elicit
itself, but until such time, I will continue to post at my own volition,
regardless of the Zenometric caliber of my posts. I am not a Zen Buddhist
monk. I do not plan to be or not to become one.
I have a brain problem. I can understand what I say to others; others can not
understand what I say to them; I can not understand what others say to me;
others can understand what they say to me. This problem is exponentially worse
in the presence of white noise.
Help me out with this please:
In the presence of white noise, most notably shower static & rubber tires
against highway & air fans & running water, I hear my own thoughts out loud -
literally as if on a radio somewhere in the room.
I have practiced meditation to the point that I could almost hear the shape of
the ventilation when then fan turned on in the middle of sitting. I really
could tell the difference between different ventilation shapes depending on the
building in which I was at the time. Many, many, many doctors have said I am
schizophrenic, and deteriorating over time, and that this is what I was
hearing.
I say "humbug". I have been hearing voices all my life. They never tell me to
do things, only whisper my name or I hear my own thoughts out loud. I know
what I know, and what some others know but express differently. You want a
behind-the-scenes look? Here's a bit as far as I know. There IS a context to
express which is the macro-analogous universal standard. There ARE objective
reference points which CAN be determined by the subjective cross-reference of
the senses & thought combined. Just as there would be no horizon without the
concurrence of the sky and the ground/sea, so would there be no Zen (and there
is no Zen, just as there is no actual horizon to which one could travel and
plant a flag {[(FLAG)]}.
So maybe my brain is fucked up and that's why I can't do anything superficial
IOR practical IOR experimentally relevant to a satisfactory degree of
performance. The skill I've cultivated to a greater degree than even music is
staying out of the hospital. Going into a mental hospital is just boot camp.
They basically teach you what to say and do to get out.
So I love you all, and kiss my ass; you're starving: I'm only giving you my
shit to pick corn seeds from.
By the way, not being ready to die is not a reason to die LATER. The less
ready one is to die, the sooner t'would be better for one to do so.
Sincerely,
helpy helpy helpy helpywhatthefuck and I know what I say, and I'm always gonna
say it,
pandanaspschizosock
PS ((did you notice how many times "I" said "I" in this post... and you're
still reading this?! "I" woulda said "fuck that!"))
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Re: [Zen] Uneasy 不安 （2）
Notions & emotions like the ocean's tides emerge & cover & trail back to their source‚ a restlessness with worms for nerves‚ all sprawling in reactionary chaos Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Hand-shoes and horse-grenades
If you have hands, don't bother washing them in the shower. Variety is not the spice of life. Paranoia is the spice of life. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] why I'm here
Go take a piss in the dirt and find out for yourself. Just make sure to piss in the dirt while you are pissing in the dirt. --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Mel wrote: > > ...and that is suppose to teach...what?... > Â > in Buddha's grace > Mel > > --- On Wed, 20/7/11, pandabananasock wrote: > > > From: pandabananasock > Subject: [Zen] why I'm here > To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com > Received: Wednesday, 20 July, 2011, 11:47 AM > > > Â > > > > I'm here to piss in the dirt > Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: Zen elements?
Inside/outside the mind is not zen. Zen/not zen is not zen. --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu wrote: > > Bill, > Â > I am not familiar with the 'Kingdom of Heaven', but it sounds like something > outside your mind, so it is not zen. It is dualism. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] why I'm here
I'm here to piss in the dirt Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Chi
Nine out of ten times, if you ask someone if they are feeling something, or if you put them in the position of expecting something (such as perfroming an elaborate excersize) they WILL feel "it" (or at least "something" that will be interpreted as "it") aaannndd ZEN! --- On Wed, 9/10/08, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: [Zen] Chi > To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com > Date: Wednesday, September 10, 2008, 1:13 PM > There are two types of Chi, internal and external. Qi-Gong, > pronounce > Cheee-Gong is a practice which the teacher gives students > the Chi, which > is external or additional Chi or Yang Chi (means strong and > masculine). > While Sitting Chan, in japan it is called Za (sit) Zen > (Chan), > cultivates internal Chi, or Original Chi, or Ying Chi (Ying > means soft > and mild). If you are interested, it takes only two > minutes to > experience your internal Chi. > > 1. First minute - sit down, relax and breath with your > belly. Place > each hand, palms up and open, on each knee. With eyes > closed, observe > the center of each palm for one minute. What can you > sense? > 2. Second minute - sit down, relax and breath with your > belly. Put > your palms together in front of your heart, like praying. > With eyes > closed, observe the center of the palms (together now) for > one minute. > Then open your hands to 12 inches apart at the speed of two > seconds > (slowly) and together and apart and together, repeat. What > can you sense? > > Just a simple way to be aware of our Innate Chi, which we > were born > with. Without it, we die. > > In Chan, we do not teach Sexual Chi. I am aware that the > Taoists do. > JM > > Edgar Owen wrote: > > > > Jeni Jeni, > > > > > > Historically there is a long history of discussions of > sex and sexual > > energy associated with Zen, Tao, Tibetan Buddhism and > Tantra all have > > their particular takes on the matter. The basic idea > is that the > > sexual energy is one of the primary sources where chi > enters one's > > body. At that point the idea is to use specific > techniques to > > distribute that energy within one's energy centers > and one's whole > > being to refresh it and make it strong and healthy, > and enlightened > > rather than just immediately expending the sexual > energy outward from > > its source. Tantra in particular advocates a man and a > woman working > > together to do this. The idea is that they sexually > join not with the > > goal of quick orgasm but with the goal of mutually > stimulating and > > increasing the genital chi and then working together > to distribute > > that through their chakras and entire bodies. The idea > is that > > naturally a man and woman together can generate and > move a lot more > > good energy than either alone. > > > > In the past I've used this technique extensively > and found it > > extremely effective and health inducing and an > excellent technique on > > the path to enlightenment. > > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > On Aug 28, 2008, at 1:17 AM, Jeni Jeni wrote: > > > >> When I was very sexually active, I felt life-power > in sex. I think > >> that is CHI, or is that like addiction? There is > manic energy that > >> came from sex and also from drugs. Is that Chi? > >> > > > > > > > > Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently > have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups > Links > > > Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Dear Bill
I hope you have not forgotten to dig up that material you have been working on regarding time/cause&effect. What it something I said?? Really though, if you are still willing to share, I'd still love to take a look! P-P-P-Panda Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: SV: RE: [Zen] Re: D.L.
Remember that little ditty about the monk who picks the scorpion out of the water to save it, because that's the monk's nature, and how the scorpion stings the monk, because that's the scorpion's nature, and how the scorpion falls back in the water and the monk still picks it out of the water to save it even though it just stung him because that's his nature? Remember that? Remember? That one was totally radically tubularly awesome. Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today! Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Ash Wednesday
Buddhism would be the same way if the Romans had adopted it instead of Kritchen-anity. Imagine that, "the Roman-Buddhist church" Wasn't it the Roman government that supposedly excecuted Jesus? And then a couple hundred years later claimed him as their god? No wonder they're full of hypocrisy! Bad track record from square-absolute-one! But yeah, it's not Christianity in itself. Does anyone else think that If Buddhism was as western-dominant, it would be as full of child molesters and "false leaders" ? I would love to see some southern baptist Benny Hinn type talking about praising the Buddha and working staged "miracles" in buddha's name and sending miracle healing buddha water in little plastic packets in exchange for your money. Can't really blame him though, his several mansion payment must be quite expensive! --- diablodrakul <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > The Christian religion is > dying out, thanks > to corruption, perversion, child-molesting, and > false prophets and > false leaders. Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today! Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Wealth Ministry
I would love to see one of those guys saying, "God works in mysterious ways... except for the part about all of you sending me your money. THAT part is pretty clear." --- Jackson Masters <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I was watching a TV show which interviewed a few of > those modern > christian wealth ministers and it was disgusting. > Their unabashed > philosophy is that God/Jesus wants them to be > wealthy because it is a > blessing from God. So they tell their followers to > send them money and > then they openly flaunt their mansions and > limousines as evidence that > God loves them. > > This is really sick, and I think that the government > should audit and > tax these frauds. > > > > Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you > recently have read or are reading! Talk about it > today! > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today! Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Zazen & Menstruation
Oh, for the love of ... --- Frazier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > How does menstruation affect your zazen practice? Do > hormonal > fluctuations affect satori? Does a zen master who is > having her period > reach higher or lower levels? Does she become One > with The Flow? Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today! Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Zazen & Penis Size
Last time I posted a bunch of penis jokes and later a felt all bad and stuff. Is discomfort really any more of an "obstacle" than comfort is an "opportunity"? Methinks when you're cold, be cold buddha. When you're hot, be hot buddha. But that is just what methinks. --- Jackson Masters <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Maybe try zazen in the bathtub or > pool. I don't know > how buoyant your penis is, but floating it might > help. > > > > As a black man, I am glad to read this topic. I have > some prolbem with > my penis too when I am trying to set the zaazen > meditation. It can be > downrite umcomfortable. > > I have found that wearing double-underwear can help > or wearing tight > underewear. > > > > Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you > recently have read or are reading! Talk about it > today! > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > Practice doesn't make perfect. Perfect practice makes perfect. Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today! Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Re: Life Force creates Forms
diablodrakul, wether you're right or wrong about him, you definitely made me laugh. It makes sense. If he's an impostor it makes sense that he WOULD have a name like "Fred Schwartz", and it makes sense that I WOULD be asking questions of a guy who's really just some culty hack from Brooklyn! People like me are the reason enlightenment is sold for thousands of dollars. I have yet to lose all kinds of money over it, but it's my kind who create the market. I have no reason to believe that he is or is not who he says he is, but I got a kick out of your accusation! --- diablodrakul <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I have a feeling that your real name is not Jue Jiao > Jing Ming but > instead it is Fred Schwartz and you are from > Brooklyn. > > This is the kind of faggery that has become so > prevalent in Zen > circles. Remember that Ra-Zen who was selling > enlightenment at $5000 > per satori? > > > > Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you > recently have read or are reading! Talk about it > today! > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > Practice doesn't make perfect. Perfect practice makes perfect. Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today! Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Religion (Spirituality) and Politics
Socrates believed wisdom came not from what one knows, but from how much one knows that one does not know. He therefore never entered politics, believing it would be inappropriate for him to make the best decisions on others' behalves when he himself claimed to be unwise and ignorant, knowing nothing except the path to wisdom. Even the Oracle at Delphi agreed; it was not how much he knew or did not know, it was Socrates' complete awareness of his almost complete ignorance made him the wisest of all. Seems like he would be best qualified for the political area, being that he was the wisest, right? Or is wisdom a hinderance to political action? Or is political decision-making a hinderance to wisdom? I am interested to know this forums' members' thoughts about their own religion (spirituality) and their own politics, how they believe they are or are not related, and anything else in the above paragraphs. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today! Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: Life Force creates Forms
Maybe you would like to share details of your practice/routine (?) You seem to have very definite ideas of your practice's inspirations and roles in life/advancement. How do you do that voodoo that you do? --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺å¦ç²¾æ <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > As Chan practitioners, we practice to detach ourselves from all forms, > because all forms are transient, impermanent and empty by nature. > > When we see all forms as emptiness, then we see true form. The true > form mentioned here in Diamond Sutra is the universal life force and wisdom. > > When we walked into Costco, do we see every merchandise just as shapes, > colors and sizes? > When we watch TV, can we switch it off at any moment? Or turn it on and > begin to watch it from anywhere in the middle? > When we talk or write, can we stop in the middle of our sentence without > insisting to finish? Can we wait until others finish theirs? > > These are all but forms. Their only values are relative to each being > at each moment, and are all but result of some causes and caused by > generations of other causes. > > When we begin to sync with the universal life force, we could be still > and unaffected by forms. As our synchronicity improve we could begin to > realize the true nature of forms. Then we could sync to current moment > which are the causes of future forms. > > Liberation begins by detaching from all forms. It begins by detaching > from knowledges, languages, logic.. > > Be present beyond forms. Sync to the life force at every moment. > > It is not hard to witness, just practice. Begin the practice with deep > belly breathing... > JM > Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today! Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Sincerity in Zen_Forum
After about a year of inactivity, I have resumed posting on this forum. I've had a lot more time than usual to spend online due to my high-maintenance girlfriend's recent, temporarily disabling operation (just a foot surgery, nothing serious) and the fact that she is pretty much useless in her disabled, opiate-riddled condition. I've been working odd hours and posting in-between making her food and running her errands. THE POINT IS: only one of my recent posts has been sincere, about an actual "problem" concerning Zazen (that really long one). A couple have been half sincere and half in jest. And most have just been short and in jest. I remember at one point there was a big push by the moderator to focus posts on sharing ideas from books, teachers, and personal practice, and to avoid just posting a few self-serving paragraphs about our supposed boundless knowledge of Zen without citing where we got these ideas, and to also avoid masturbatory diatribes about how much more Zenner we are than other people (Wierd Al Yankovic said it best: "Think you're pure of heart? I know I'm a million times as humble as thou art!"). I admit it, I'm probably one of the most guilty of self-service and non-citation on this forum, however: I don't want to dilute the message board. I don't want to come off as self-serving, one of those people who seem to post just to be able to read their own words in masturbatory awe. I don't want to post little jokes in response to people who are seeking sincere responses from experienced practitioners, if is a waste of the seekers' time. I guess I am just unsure of the boundaries, but I am young (23!!), inexperienced, and maybe possibly only be posting more due to my on-call at-home status. I realize that this forum does not consider itself an authority on zen, but I would like to know what the moderator and other members feel that the boundaries concerning sincerity should be so that this forum's members and I may progress in a manner that is most congruent to the goals of the forum and membership. So how about it? Is there a line to be crossed, and if so, where should it be drawn? What does everyone think? Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today! Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Caveat Emptor
I'll show you my zen if you show me yours! ~Panda anatmanwave <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: ---Once a Zen monk was weighing flax for sale in the market Another monk approaches and ask,"Show me your Zen". First monk replies,"This flax weighs six pounds" Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today! Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Re: Homosexuality and Zen
That's why YOU are the moderator, right? I always thought stirring up angry flaming monks is what you did best!! --- Al <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Angry flaming monks where definitely entertaining > and sometimes > enlightening. Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today! Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] What's New in Baltimore?
Does anyone know of any sanghas in the Baltimore area?! Either I'm a terrible googler, or I live in the armpit of the enlightened world. The only places I have found calling themselves "Buddhist" turn out to be culty, and no place I found calls themselves "Zen Buddhist" I hope someone caught the Zappa reference (yes, he's from here)... but seriously, any references or contact information would be great. Thanks in advance. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today! Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: Homosexuality and Zen
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "diablodrakul" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > It seems like a lot of the American zen roshis are either openly gay or > lesbians. What's that all about? I'm curious; how many American zen roshis have you observed to be openly gay? How many non-American zen roshis have you observed to be straight? I heard a statistic that 10% of the population is gay. I don't know how accurate that is, but I agree with you based on that number. 10% of probably thousands of american roshis is a whole gaggle of gay roshis! I suggest you pucker up your asshole the next time you step in a temple! > I bet a lot of faggery goes on at a Zen Temple. Okay, you got to re-use the word "faggery"... outstanding work. I guess you wanted some of Al's glory. You didn't even ask his permission, did you? I know this forum has had problems with flaming in the past, but not THIS kind of flaming! I sure do miss those days... Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today! Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [Zen] Zen and the art of ... sleep paralysis?? Help! [To Bill]
--- Bill Smart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Panda-Banana-Sock, > > I do not believe this is any kind of 'demon > possession' or 'witchcraft'. I > think things like that are just tags we put on > things we don't understand, > but want to. My cat may understand my vacuum cleaner in similar terms! Sometimes I feel if any being was in the room with me, to them my fear would look equally as unnecessary as when the cat darts out of the room when it sees me bring out the vacuum. > According to Buddhist philosophy, all phenomena are > 'samsara', or illusions. > I don't completely buy into that position, but in > truth don't concern myself > with such explanations, or even the need for them. > You experienced sleep > paralysis. You experienced loss of motor control. > You experienced fear. > That is all there is to that. As far as I'm > concerned further explanations > are not necessary, or even possible. I admit, I am grasping toward a state of mind and an achieving an explanation, but it's so damn interesting! I mean, come on!! > If sleep paralysis becomes a real obstacle in your > life, then I advize you > to seek professional, perhaps medical, help. Until I develop narcolepsy with episodes of paralysis at work, this will not be a major obstacle for me. The biggest problem with it is that I lose a few hours of sleep per year over it. The only other symptom I could claim from these experiences is "chronic acute curiosity". I don't even necessarily want the episodes to stop, but to just be able to see where it would go if I didn't resist. > I think meditation (zazen) is the right approach for > this, but I think zazen > is the right approach...for everything. Zazen is > just the right approach. > I don't think you should think of zazen as remedy or > solution for this. You > should not be doing zazen to achieve anything. > There are no goals for > zazen. Without denying any of what you say, I still believe zazen can help. A person may not be practicing zazen to achieve any benefits, but nevertheless, benefits such as better blood pressure and lower stress level (and apparently living to be 200) are benefits that the medical community has known that meditation will provide. I am confident that in addition to those benefits, zazen can help me "ride out" an episode of sleep paralysis. I guess the key is not to practice for the purpose of reaping its benefits, but to just be doing zazen for the purpose only of doing zazen, and to being accepting of its benefits for the purpose only of being accepting of its benefits. Thanks for helping me to see it this way! If I can tame this paralyzing ox, I will make sure to ride it over to you in the middle of the night to give you my thanks!! > Sweet Dreams! ...Bill! LOL, yeah right! I guess instead of counting sheep, I should be counting breaths. That's something I can do even when paralyzed. Thanks again for sharing your experience and views. Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today! Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Zen and the art of ... sleep paralysis?? Help! [To JM]
I would love to read about what you know on this
subject. In my mind, the scariness of sleep paralysis
is only exceeded by its intrigue and the curiosity
with which it leaves me. Messages are welcome!
--- Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺å¦ç²¾æ
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
-
Dear pandabananasock,
This is a very rare subject to be discussed in an
online forum, becauseeach school teaches differently
and teachings beyond everyday lives areeither not
addressed or lost in the linage. Often these
discussionscould be categorized as samsara or even
witchcraft. Until apractitioner can witness some
spiritual connection in the karma domain,subject
matters such as this are difficult to digest, or even
sometimeshinder the progress of the practice.
To help you with these phenomenon, not only the
concepts of karma needto be addressed, a dedicated,
Chi oriented practice is a must. Spiritual phenomenon
have reasonable causes also. Because they
areinvisible by nature, an invisible answer, such as
those based on karmaand Chi are difficult to be
accepted by our logical mind. It is hardfor us to be
completely open mind and not judgmental.
In a few days, if there is no posting about this
subject. I will writeyou a private one, if you are
interested to explore further.
JM
Practice doesn't make perfect. Perfect practice makes perfect.
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are
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[Zen] Zen and the art of ... sleep paralysis?? Help!
Okay, this might be a moderately long post, but keep faith that I will relate it to zen practice by the end. That being said: Sleep paralysis (hereinafter referred to as "SP") is something I experience occasionally. Anyone else get this? About five times annually since the teenage years, within usually minutes of falling asleep but sometimes in the middle of the night, I wake up paralyzed but oriented (knowing exactly where I am, who I am, when I am, etc.) with the most intense fear I have experienced in my life so far. All I know when it is happening is I can't even open my eyes, but I NEED TO GET THE HELL OUTTA HERE RIGHT F---ING NOW because I can definitely tell something or someone is in the room, and it might just try to "get" me. I am absolutely positive that these are not nightmares - I am awake and lucid, even able to feel the bed and hear sounds in the room - and within seconds of it beginning I recognize that it is SP and think "Oh God, not again!" Like most people, if I wake up in the middle of the night I can get up and walk out of the room without light because I know where everything is in the room. SP is no different, except there is an extra entity in the room, and it is apparently malevolent. Inside my mind, I am FRANTIC, trying to kick and scream and throw any muscle I can in any direction, anything I can do to just get "unlocked" and run like hell... but on the outside, I can tell that I am motionless and silent, and I feel like a "sitting duck". After about thirty seconds, I can open my eyes, quickly sit up, and whatever I was afraid of is gone. If I go right back to sleep, I will experience the same thing within minutes, so I walk to the kitchen for some water that I am not thirsty for. The only time this experience was pleasant was when I fell asleep in the middle of the day on a couch with three other people awake in the room. I woke up paralyzed, but not scared. When I tried to jostle myself awake, I realized I could open my eyes, and upon doing so, I found myself weightless, floating a few feet from my body! I can normally hear everything in the room during SP, but this time, I looked around the room and could see everything that was really happening,. I could see and hear the football game on the TV, in sync with the announcer that I could clearly hear. I could see my step-sister typing on the computer in the corner in sync with the clicking of the keyboard that I normally would be able to hear. Within about 30 seconds, I was about ten feet from my body when I regained movement, thereby putting me in corpus again. I immediately thought, "WOW, I'll be dammed if that wasn't a out of body experience!!" This was about six or seven years ago, and ever since I've really wanted it to happen again, but it hasn't. In retrospect, knowing that there is no real danger, I always tell myself that the next time I find myself awake and paralyzed I should immediately start meditating. "Just BE afraid" I tell myself. "I am not going to be in any real physical danger, so just completely experience that fear for all it's worth and see where it wants to take me." I want to just lay there in meditation, let myself be paralyzed and afraid, but the fear is just too great. While it is happening I can remember thinking about how I wanted to meditate during it, and realizing that this is my chance, but I always immediately think "Screw that! I'm outta here!!" because the fear is overwhelming and I "know" there is an evil being in the room with me - a clear and present threat. I guess the big problem is knowing how to engage in meditation in the face of a fear that takes priority. If anyone reading this has any suggestions about how I can overcome this great fear, any questions or comments, please post them here, and accept my thanks in advance. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today! Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: Anti-aging with zazen
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "dhammastudents" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Anti-aging or reverse unhealthy cells with Nano technology to create > zero energy or also known as scalar energy . > > Zazen will do this for you. You can live 200 years. > 200 years, huh? That's more than enough to almost make me begin to look into the consideration of probably starting my very own Zazen practice! A couple questions arise, though... Can I smoke tobacco and still be 200? If so, which is preferable: to smoke while I do Nano therapy, or to do Nano therapy while I smoke? Does this mean Bardo is longer as well? If so, I think I'll go with the classic anti-aging technique, Samsara neutralization. An extra hundred years of Karma per lifetime seems like moving in the opposite direction (dare I say... sinful), but then again, I'm very young compared to my new 200 year life expectancy. Everyone tells me I need to finally leave my apartment because renting is supposed to be temporary. Which would help me move out faster, nano therapy or Zazen? Call me pessimistic, but I feel this whole Zazen/nano therapy idea is still too new. Every time a new medication is released, there is a commercial on TV a fews years later explaining that I may now have legal rights if I took the medication. I just don't wanna see the same thing happen with Zazen or nano therapy. The compensation had better be worth it; this thing is a rental!! Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today! Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] ZEN is totally boss
I've always known a buddha-statue when I've seen one from thier appearances in movies and stuff, but then I talked to this guy that was really good at ZEN and knew a lot about it, and some of the stuff he said totally blew my mind. It really made me think. He said some crazy stuff that I never thought of before. Now that I see that there is really something to it, I think it's awesome. Love, PandaBananaSock Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today! Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
