[Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"

[Joe]

Hiya, Merle,

Nonetheless, practice formally if you are able.

If you are not able, then find some way to do it.  ;-)

It's as important as that.  Life is a little bit short, nowadays.

If you report-back that it is all B.S., then we'll understand that it is so, 
for you... once you have given it your ALL, with a good teacher, and sangha.

But I think you'll have a more positive experience, and report.

In fact, I worry that you may develop attachments, especially in the realm, or 
area, of the Optical-sense.  But when I see the paintings that afterwards 
result, coming from your studio, THAT will assuage my concerns, probably, and 
bath me in balm, I am sure.  And this is what I look forward to.

Yet, it's not selfishness, on my part.

And, I am not attached to the possibility.  But I have hopes that EVERYONE who 
wishes to practice under the best conditions may have their wish, and will 
awaken.  Not just because I have done it, and have had the wonder and miracle 
of this chance a number of times, as many of us have, in company with so many 
others throughout History, and among our intimate acquaintances: but, because 
so many others have *not*.

I know what I'm wishing you, and others, I mean.

Otherwise... may the veiled-life suffice!  One can't disparage where we are.  
One can only either realize, or not realize.  Realize means realizing where we 
are already, but being the most clear about it.  That's not a movement to 
somewhere else, but it is a very, very big step, as momentous as the late Neil 
Armstrong's.  Will you trust me, about this, in this?

I was 17 when he and Buzz landed, and walked, and Mike Collins orbited, 
station-keeping for them.  Life was different after that.  I could write 
volumes about how.

Maybe I'm a relic.  Maybe, someday, to be appreciated.  ;-)

--Joe

> Merle Lester  wrote:
>
> ..am i on track.?
>





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[Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"

[Bill!]

Merle,

You're looking for a teacher?  How about Joshu?  He's a pretty good one...

Joshu's Wash Your Bowls - Case 7, THE GATELESS GATE

"A monk asked Joshu in all earnestness, "I have just entered this monastery.  I 
beg you, please give me instructions."  Joshu asked, "Have you eaten your rice 
gruel yet?"  The monk answered, "Yes, I have."  Joshu said, "Then wash your 
bowls."  The monk [then] attained some realization."

...Bill! 

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester  wrote:
>
>  hi joe... i have no way of finding a teacher..i must be my own teacher   
>  yes i do develop attachments...i am human..
> 
> . ...i do go backwards and i do dwell in the past...i reflect.
> .i think what if how come, if only..should i have...all that stuff.
> .and i create my own horror in the now and in the future..with the maybes 
> etc..
> 
> ..i try to see this is not the way..i know in my heart of hearts this is not 
> tao the way.
> 
> .i do not dance on daffodils ..i tiptoe..i would never crush them.
> 
> ..why this "hatred" of the dancing with the daffodils?.
> .it is only reflection of a sun filled mind..full of light..and openness and 
> lightness of being.
> .otherwise it would be for me a dark murky dull grey... a doom a gloom...i 
> know these places well
> 
>  i may develop attachments to optical vision
> ..but bare in mind joe..i transform what i see...i do not copy nature..i 
> record my "feelings, my insights, my delights..do you get my drift?
> 
>  when buzz landed on the moon i was in the classroom teaching art..with the 
> t.v on...yea..
> .
> you are younger than me..i turn 67 on 23rd sept
> 
>  as for nature...she is my light
> 
>  what others think of nature?
> 
>  how do i know?
>  i know what i know
>  and that sums it up
> 
>  if my understanding of zen is so poor...
>  i am still learning
>  i listen and learn
>  that is all i can do
> 
>  attachment desire...
>  release me please
> 
>  i long for peace but do i have it?
> i long for love but do i have it?
> 
>  i long for knowing but do i have it?
> 
>  i await
>  patiently
> for release
>  all the best joe..
>  with love merle
> 
>   
> Hiya, Merle,
> 
> Nonetheless, practice formally if you are able.
> 
> If you are not able, then find some way to do it.  ;-)
> 
> It's as important as that.  Life is a little bit short, nowadays.
> 
> If you report-back that it is all B.S., then we'll understand that it is so, 
> for you... once you have given it your ALL, with a good teacher, and sangha.
> 
> But I think you'll have a more positive experience, and report.
> 
> In fact, I worry that you may develop attachments, especially in the realm, 
> or area, of the Optical-sense.  But when I see the paintings that afterwards 
> result, coming from your studio, THAT will assuage my concerns, probably, and 
> bath me in balm, I am sure.  And this is what I look forward to.
> 
> Yet, it's not selfishness, on my part.
> 
> And, I am not attached to the possibility.  But I have hopes that EVERYONE 
> who wishes to practice under the best conditions may have their wish, and 
> will awaken.  Not just because I have done it, and have had the wonder and 
> miracle of this chance a number of times, as many of us have, in company with 
> so many others throughout History, and among our intimate acquaintances: but, 
> because so many others have *not*.
> 
> I know what I'm wishing you, and others, I mean.
> 
> Otherwise... may the veiled-life suffice!  One can't disparage where we are.  
> One can only either realize, or not realize.  Realize means realizing where 
> we are already, but being the most clear about it.  That's not a movement to 
> somewhere else, but it is a very, very big step, as momentous as the late 
> Neil Armstrong's.  Will you trust me, about this, in this?
> 
> I was 17 when he and Buzz landed, and walked, and Mike Collins orbited, 
> station-keeping for them.  Life was different after that.  I could write 
> volumes about how.
> 
> Maybe I'm a relic.  Maybe, someday, to be appreciated.  ;-)
> 
> --Joe
> 
> > Merle Lester  wrote:
> >
> > ..am i on track.?
> >
>






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[Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"

[ED]

Edgar,

Therefore, although each of us is complete, we need to practice
diligently at all times with no objective in mind?

--ED



--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen  wrote:
>
> Joe and Merle,
>
> There is no 'goal' of enlightenment to be achieved without which you
imagine you are incomplete
>
> There is no incompleteness. This understanding is an essential aspect
of realization...
>
> Wham!
>
> Edgar







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[Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"

[ED]

Edgar,

And how is this magic trick accomplished?

--ED



--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen  wrote:
>
> ED,
>
> Stop practicing and just BE your Buddha Nature!
>
> Edgar



> > Edgar,
> >
> > Therefore, although each of us is complete, we need to practice
> > diligently at all times with no objective in mind?
> >
> > --ED



> > > Joe and Merle,
> > >
> > > There is no 'goal' of enlightenment to be achieved without which
you
> > imagine you are incomplete
> > >
> > > There is no incompleteness. This understanding is an essential
aspect
> > of realization...
> > >
> > > Wham!
> > >
> > > Edgar







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[Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"

[Bill!]

Bill,

I've had a lot of practice trying to follow Edgar's posts.  I'm sure you'll get 
the hang of it sooner or later.

...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, William Rintala  wrote:
>
> Thank you for that Edgar.  I can follow your emails better if you give them 
> to 
> me a teaspoon at a time, unlike Bill! who seems to follow what you say with 
> ease. 
> 
>  Bill not Bill! 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Find what makes your heart sing…and do it! 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From: Edgar Owen 
> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Sat, September 1, 2012 6:36:59 AM
> Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"
> 
>   
> Joe and Merle, 
> 
> There is no 'goal' of enlightenment to be achieved without which you imagine 
> you 
> are incomplete
> 
> There is no incompleteness. This understanding is an essential aspect of 
> realization...
> 
> Wham!
> 
> Edgar
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Aug 30, 2012, at 11:51 PM, Joe wrote:
> 
>   
> >Hiya, Merle,
> >
> >Nonetheless, practice formally if you are able.
> >
> >If you are not able, then find some way to do it. ;-)
> >
> >It's as important as that. Life is a little bit short, nowadays.
> >
> >If you report-back that it is all B.S., then we'll understand that it is so, 
> >for 
> >you... once you have given it your ALL, with a good teacher, and sangha.
> >
> >But I think you'll have a more positive experience, and report.
> >
> >In fact, I worry that you may develop attachments, especially in the realm, 
> >or 
> >area, of the Optical-sense. But when I see the paintings that afterwards 
> >result, 
> >coming from your studio, THAT will assuage my concerns, probably, and bath 
> >me in 
> >balm, I am sure. And this is what I look forward to.
> >
> >Yet, it's not selfishness, on my part.
> >
> >And, I am not attached to the possibility. But I have hopes that EVERYONE 
> >who 
> >wishes to practice under the best conditions may have their wish, and will 
> >awaken. Not just because I have done it, and have had the wonder and miracle 
> >of 
> >this chance a number of times, as many of us have, in company with so many 
> >others throughout History, and among our intimate acquaintances: but, 
> >because so 
> >many others have *not*.
> >
> >I know what I'm wishing you, and others, I mean.
> >
> >Otherwise... may the veiled-life suffice! One can't disparage where we are. 
> >One 
> >can only either realize, or not realize. Realize means realizing where we 
> >are 
> >already, but being the most clear about it. That's not a movement to 
> >somewhere 
> >else, but it is a very, very big step, as momentous as the late Neil 
> >Armstrong's. Will you trust me, about this, in this?
> >
> >I was 17 when he and Buzz landed, and walked, and Mike Collins orbited, 
> >station-keeping for them. Life was different after that. I could write 
> >volumes 
> >about how.
> >
> >Maybe I'm a relic. Maybe, someday, to be appreciated. ;-)
> >
> >--Joe
> >
> >> Merle Lester  wrote:
> >>
> >> ..am i on track.?
> >>
> >
> >
>






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[Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"

[Bill!]

ED,

Mind if Joshu and I jump in?

"WASH YOUR BOWLS!"  That's how...Bill! (and Joshu)

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "ED"  wrote:
>
> 
> 
> Edgar,
> 
> And how is this magic trick accomplished?
> 
> --ED
> 
> 
> 
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen  wrote:
> >
> > ED,
> >
> > Stop practicing and just BE your Buddha Nature!
> >
> > Edgar
> 
> 
> 
> > > Edgar,
> > >
> > > Therefore, although each of us is complete, we need to practice
> > > diligently at all times with no objective in mind?
> > >
> > > --ED
> 
> 
> 
> > > > Joe and Merle,
> > > >
> > > > There is no 'goal' of enlightenment to be achieved without which
> you
> > > imagine you are incomplete
> > > >
> > > > There is no incompleteness. This understanding is an essential
> aspect
> > > of realization...
> > > >
> > > > Wham!
> > > >
> > > > Edgar
>






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[Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"

[Bill!]

Mike,  Point taken, but this is the Zen Forum, not the Theravada Forum or the 
Here-Have-Some-More-Rice-Gruel Forum.

ED, Just sit.  Don't think.  Just sit.

...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown  wrote:
>
> Bill!,
> 
> A great instruction, and is certainly direct, but Joshu's instructions were 
> given to a monk who had probably been practicing meditation for a long time 
> and was already 'ripe' for awakening to happen. Imagine how useful that 
> instruction would be to a neophyte coming off the street asking about the 
> search for truth or something similar. Joshu's instruction is just that - an 
> instruction. That's why i believe Buddha's skilful means (upaya) is so useful 
> as a teaching method. On the one side we can have the direct pointing to the 
> Dharma (Zen) and on the other we can have Therevada Buddhism with it's more 
> step by step instructions, such as following the Noble eightfold Path. 
> 
> The Buddha was very wise to understand that there are many different kinds of 
> people/cultures/personalities etc. out there and no one method will work for 
> all. I think it should be clear now that "wash you bowls" just isn't going to 
> work for someone like ED. If you agree, what else could you say that might 
> help him?
> 
> Mike
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ____________________
>  From: Bill! 
> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
> Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 9:48
> Subject: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"
>  
> 
>   
> ED,
> 
> Mind if Joshu and I jump in?
> 
> "WASH YOUR BOWLS!"  That's how...Bill! (and Joshu)
> 
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "ED"  wrote:
> >
> > 
> > 
> > Edgar,
> > 
> > And how is this magic trick accomplished?
> > 
> > --ED
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen  wrote:
> > >
> > > ED,
> > >
> > > Stop practicing and just BE your Buddha Nature!
> > >
> > > Edgar
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > > > Edgar,
> > > >
> > > > Therefore, although each of us is complete, we need to practice
> > > > diligently at all times with no objective in mind?
> > > >
> > > > --ED
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > > > > Joe and Merle,
> > > > >
> > > > > There is no 'goal' of enlightenment to be achieved without which
> > you
> > > > imagine you are incomplete
> > > > >
> > > > > There is no incompleteness. This understanding is an essential
> > aspect
> > > > of realization...
> > > > >
> > > > > Wham!
> > > > >
> > > > > Edgar
> >
>






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[Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"

[Bill!]

Mike and ED,

Or how about...Just continue to exchange posts with Edgar.  He's got what seems 
to be an unlimited supply of rice gruel.  He'll keep your bowl filled to the 
brim!

...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "Bill!"  wrote:
>
> Mike,  Point taken, but this is the Zen Forum, not the Theravada Forum or the 
> Here-Have-Some-More-Rice-Gruel Forum.
> 
> ED, Just sit.  Don't think.  Just sit.
> 
> ...Bill!
> 
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown  wrote:
> >
> > Bill!,
> > 
> > A great instruction, and is certainly direct, but Joshu's instructions were 
> > given to a monk who had probably been practicing meditation for a long time 
> > and was already 'ripe' for awakening to happen. Imagine how useful that 
> > instruction would be to a neophyte coming off the street asking about the 
> > search for truth or something similar. Joshu's instruction is just that - 
> > an instruction. That's why i believe Buddha's skilful means (upaya) is so 
> > useful as a teaching method. On the one side we can have the direct 
> > pointing to the Dharma (Zen) and on the other we can have Therevada 
> > Buddhism with it's more step by step instructions, such as following the 
> > Noble eightfold Path. 
> > 
> > The Buddha was very wise to understand that there are many different kinds 
> > of people/cultures/personalities etc. out there and no one method will work 
> > for all. I think it should be clear now that "wash you bowls" just isn't 
> > going to work for someone like ED. If you agree, what else could you say 
> > that might help him?
> > 
> > Mike
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >  From: Bill! 
> > To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
> > Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 9:48
> > Subject: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"
> >  
> > 
> >   
> > ED,
> > 
> > Mind if Joshu and I jump in?
> > 
> > "WASH YOUR BOWLS!"  That's how...Bill! (and Joshu)
> > 
> > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "ED"  wrote:
> > >
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Edgar,
> > > 
> > > And how is this magic trick accomplished?
> > > 
> > > --ED
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen  wrote:
> > > >
> > > > ED,
> > > >
> > > > Stop practicing and just BE your Buddha Nature!
> > > >
> > > > Edgar
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > > > Edgar,
> > > > >
> > > > > Therefore, although each of us is complete, we need to practice
> > > > > diligently at all times with no objective in mind?
> > > > >
> > > > > --ED
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > > > > Joe and Merle,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > There is no 'goal' of enlightenment to be achieved without which
> > > you
> > > > > imagine you are incomplete
> > > > > >
> > > > > > There is no incompleteness. This understanding is an essential
> > > aspect
> > > > > of realization...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Wham!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Edgar
> > >
> >
>






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[Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"

[Bill!]

Mike,

It is the Yahoo! Zen Forum, but the description describes it as Zen Buddhism.  
I tried to get that changed but was voted down.

Nice concise zazen instructions.  I noticed however you threw a little rice 
gruel in the bowl with the '3 Characteristics of Existence'.  I thought that 
was unnecessary, but that's just me.  No harm, no foul I guess but I hope that 
doesn't dry out and stick to the sides of the bowl because it will also need to 
be cleaned out some day.

...Bill!
  

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown  wrote:
>
> Bill!,
> 
> 
> Isn't it the Zen BuddhistForum, at least by implication? Isn't it fair to 
> talk about comparisons?
> 
> >ED, Just sit.  Don't think.  Just sit.
> 
> But if you do find yourself thinking, just come back gently to the breath. 
> When you find your mind has become calm become mindful of how the breath (or 
> any bodily sensations) arises and passes. How it is that there is no 'you' 
> doing the breathing - rather the universe is breathing 'you'. Note how even 
> pleasant sensations eventually pass and more unpleasant, or neutral, 
> sensations take their place. With such mindfulness you may find you gain some 
> insight into the 3 Characteristics of existence: impermanence, non-self, and 
> the unsatisfactoriness of phenomena. With diligence and patience, you may 
> become liberated from suffering. 
> 
> 
> Not exactly pithy, I admit. And Zen is certainly direct in pointing to our 
> True Nature. But "wash your bowls", "just sit" and "Just This!" is also not 
> 'it' either. So if we're going to have instructions/guides, then there is 
> definitely a place for more descriptive ones (even tho the endgame will 
> always be that they are ultimately dropped). The method is NOT the meditation.
> 
> 
> 
> Mike
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  From: Bill! 
> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
> Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 11:33
> Subject: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"
>  
> 
>   
> Mike,  Point taken, but this is the Zen Forum, not the Theravada Forum or the 
> Here-Have-Some-More-Rice-Gruel Forum.
> 
> ED, Just sit.  Don't think.  Just sit.
> 
> ...Bill!
> 
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown  wrote:
> >
> > Bill!,
> > 
> > A great instruction, and is certainly direct, but Joshu's instructions were 
> > given to a monk who had probably been practicing meditation for a long time 
> > and was already 'ripe' for awakening to happen. Imagine how useful that 
> > instruction would be to a neophyte coming off the street asking about the 
> > search for truth or something similar. Joshu's instruction is just that - 
> > an instruction. That's why i believe Buddha's skilful means (upaya) is so 
> > useful as a teaching method. On the one side we can have the direct 
> > pointing to the Dharma (Zen) and on the other we can have Therevada 
> > Buddhism with it's more step by step instructions, such as following the 
> > Noble eightfold Path. 
> > 
> > The Buddha was very wise to understand that there are many different kinds 
> > of people/cultures/personalities etc. out there and no one method will work 
> > for all. I think it should be clear now that "wash you bowls" just isn't 
> > going to work for someone like ED. If you agree, what else could you say 
> > that might help him?
> > 
> > Mike
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >  From: Bill! 
> > To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
> > Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 9:48
> > Subject: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"
> > 
> > 
> >   
> > ED,
> > 
> > Mind if Joshu and I jump in?
> > 
> > "WASH YOUR BOWLS!"  That's how...Bill! (and Joshu)
> > 
> > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "ED"  wrote:
> > >
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Edgar,
> > > 
> > > And how is this magic trick accomplished?
> > > 
> > > --ED
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen  wrote:
> > > >
> > > > ED,
> > > >
> > > > Stop practicing and just BE your Buddha Nature!
> > > >
> > > > Edgar
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > > > Edgar,
> > > > >
> > > > > Therefore, although each of us is complete, we need to practice
> > > > > dilige

[Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"

[Bill!]

Mike,

I see it more like Edgar is the waiter bringing food (even some you didn't 
order) and keeping your plate full.  I'm more like the dishwasher trying my 
best to scrape all the excess food off the plates.

...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown  wrote:
>
> Bill!,
> 
> Sure. Wouldn't survive long without eating. I see Buddha's teachings as the 
> chef and you and Edgar as the waiters tho.
> 
> Bon appetite!
> 
> Mike
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  From: Bill! 
> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
> Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 12:16
> Subject: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"
>  
> 
>   
> Mike and ED,
> 
> Or how about...Just continue to exchange posts with Edgar.  He's got what 
> seems to be an unlimited supply of rice gruel.  He'll keep your bowl filled 
> to the brim!
> 
> ...Bill!
> 
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "Bill!"  wrote:
> >
> > Mike,  Point taken, but this is the Zen Forum, not the Theravada Forum or 
> > the Here-Have-Some-More-Rice-Gruel Forum.
> > 
> > ED, Just sit.  Don't think.  Just sit.
> > 
> > ...Bill!
> > 
> > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown  wrote:
> > >
> > > Bill!,
> > > 
> > > A great instruction, and is certainly direct, but Joshu's instructions 
> > > were given to a monk who had probably been practicing meditation for a 
> > > long time and was already 'ripe' for awakening to happen. Imagine how 
> > > useful that instruction would be to a neophyte coming off the street 
> > > asking about the search for truth or something similar. Joshu's 
> > > instruction is just that - an instruction. That's why i believe Buddha's 
> > > skilful means (upaya) is so useful as a teaching method. On the one side 
> > > we can have the direct pointing to the Dharma (Zen) and on the other we 
> > > can have Therevada Buddhism with it's more step by step instructions, 
> > > such as following the Noble eightfold Path. 
> > > 
> > > The Buddha was very wise to understand that there are many different 
> > > kinds of people/cultures/personalities etc. out there and no one method 
> > > will work for all. I think it should be clear now that "wash you bowls" 
> > > just isn't going to work for someone like ED. If you agree, what else 
> > > could you say that might help him?
> > > 
> > > Mike
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > >  From: Bill! 
> > > To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
> > > Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 9:48
> > > Subject: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"
> > > 
> > > 
> > >   
> > > ED,
> > > 
> > > Mind if Joshu and I jump in?
> > > 
> > > "WASH YOUR BOWLS!"  That's how...Bill! (and Joshu)
> > > 
> > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "ED"  wrote:
> > > >
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > Edgar,
> > > > 
> > > > And how is this magic trick accomplished?
> > > > 
> > > > --ED
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen  wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > ED,
> > > > >
> > > > > Stop practicing and just BE your Buddha Nature!
> > > > >
> > > > > Edgar
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > > > Edgar,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Therefore, although each of us is complete, we need to practice
> > > > > > diligently at all times with no objective in mind?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --ED
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > > > > Joe and Merle,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > There is no 'goal' of enlightenment to be achieved without which
> > > > you
> > > > > > imagine you are incomplete
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > There is no incompleteness. This understanding is an essential
> > > > aspect
> > > > > > of realization...
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Wham!
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Edgar
> > > >
> > >
> >
>






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[Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"

[Bill!]

Edgar,

Sometimes I think you don't read my posts.

I NEVER said I don't use logic.  I use it all the time.  I make my living using 
it.  I don't however mistake logic for Buddha Nature.

...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen  wrote:
>
> Bill!,
> 
> Proving Bill! still uses his considerable intelligence to negotiate the 
> rational world of forms contrary to what he claims and would have us believe 
> 
> :-)
> 
> Edgar
> 
> 
> 
> On Sep 2, 2012, at 4:46 AM, Bill! wrote:
> 
> > Bill,
> > 
> > I've had a lot of practice trying to follow Edgar's posts. I'm sure you'll 
> > get the hang of it sooner or later.
> > 
> > ...Bill!
> > 
> > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, William Rintala  wrote:
> > >
> > > Thank you for that Edgar.  I can follow your emails better if you give 
> > > them to 
> > > me a teaspoon at a time, unlike Bill! who seems to follow what you say 
> > > with 
> > > ease. 
> > > 
> > > Â Bill not Bill! 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Find what makes your heart sing…and do it! 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > From: Edgar Owen 
> > > To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> > > Sent: Sat, September 1, 2012 6:36:59 AM
> > > Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"
> > > 
> > > Â  
> > > Joe and Merle, 
> > > 
> > > There is no 'goal' of enlightenment to be achieved without which you 
> > > imagine you 
> > > are incomplete
> > > 
> > > There is no incompleteness. This understanding is an essential aspect of 
> > > realization...
> > > 
> > > Wham!
> > > 
> > > Edgar
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > On Aug 30, 2012, at 11:51 PM, Joe wrote:
> > > 
> > > Â  
> > > >Hiya, Merle,
> > > >
> > > >Nonetheless, practice formally if you are able.
> > > >
> > > >If you are not able, then find some way to do it. ;-)
> > > >
> > > >It's as important as that. Life is a little bit short, nowadays.
> > > >
> > > >If you report-back that it is all B.S., then we'll understand that it is 
> > > >so, for 
> > > >you... once you have given it your ALL, with a good teacher, and sangha.
> > > >
> > > >But I think you'll have a more positive experience, and report.
> > > >
> > > >In fact, I worry that you may develop attachments, especially in the 
> > > >realm, or 
> > > >area, of the Optical-sense. But when I see the paintings that afterwards 
> > > >result, 
> > > >coming from your studio, THAT will assuage my concerns, probably, and 
> > > >bath me in 
> > > >balm, I am sure. And this is what I look forward to.
> > > >
> > > >Yet, it's not selfishness, on my part.
> > > >
> > > >And, I am not attached to the possibility. But I have hopes that 
> > > >EVERYONE who 
> > > >wishes to practice under the best conditions may have their wish, and 
> > > >will 
> > > >awaken. Not just because I have done it, and have had the wonder and 
> > > >miracle of 
> > > >this chance a number of times, as many of us have, in company with so 
> > > >many 
> > > >others throughout History, and among our intimate acquaintances: but, 
> > > >because so 
> > > >many others have *not*.
> > > >
> > > >I know what I'm wishing you, and others, I mean.
> > > >
> > > >Otherwise... may the veiled-life suffice! One can't disparage where we 
> > > >are. One 
> > > >can only either realize, or not realize. Realize means realizing where 
> > > >we are 
> > > >already, but being the most clear about it. That's not a movement to 
> > > >somewhere 
> > > >else, but it is a very, very big step, as momentous as the late Neil 
> > > >Armstrong's. Will you trust me, about this, in this?
> > > >
> > > >I was 17 when he and Buzz landed, and walked, and Mike Collins orbited, 
> > > >station-keeping for them. Life was different after that. I could write 
> > > >volumes 
> > > >about how.
> > > >
> > > >Maybe I'm a relic. Maybe, someday, to be appreciated. ;-)
> > > >
> > > >--Joe
> > > >
> > > >> Merle Lester  wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >> ..am i on track.?
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > 
> >
>






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[Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"

[Bill!]

A clean bowl is realization...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown  wrote:
>
> Edgar,
> 
> Exactly.
> 
> Mike
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  From: Edgar Owen 
> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
> Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 12:35
> Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"
>  
> 
>   
> Mike,
> 
> Yes, the problem with these pithy 'in crowd' Zen sayings is that bowls can be 
> washed WITHOUT realization just as they can be WITH realization...
> 
> Edgar
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Sep 2, 2012, at 6:19 AM, mike brown wrote:
> 
>   
> >
> >
> >Bill!,
> >
> >A great instruction, and is certainly direct, but Joshu's instructions were 
> >given to a monk who had probably been practicing meditation for a long time 
> >and was already 'ripe' for awakening to happen. Imagine how useful that 
> >instruction would be to a neophyte coming off the street asking about the 
> >search for truth or something similar. Joshu's instruction is just that - an 
> >instruction. That's why i believe Buddha's skilful means (upaya) is so 
> >useful as a teaching method. On the one side we can have the direct pointing 
> >to the Dharma (Zen) and on the other we can have Therevada Buddhism with 
> >it's more step by step instructions, such as following the Noble eightfold 
> >Path. 
> >
> >The Buddha was very wise to understand that there are many different kinds 
> >of people/cultures/personalities etc. out there and no one method will work
>  for all. I think it should be clear now that "wash you bowls" just isn't 
> going to work for someone like ED. If you agree, what else could you say that 
> might help him?
> >
> >Mike
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > From: Bill! 
> >To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
> >Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 9:48
> >Subject: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"
> > 
> >
> >  
> >ED,
> >
> >Mind if Joshu and I jump in?
> >
> >"WASH YOUR BOWLS!"  That's how...Bill! (and Joshu)
> >
> >--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "ED"  wrote:
> >>
> >> 
> >> 
> >> Edgar,
> >> 
> >> And how is this magic trick accomplished?
> >> 
> >> --ED
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen  wrote:
> >> >
> >> > ED,
> >> >
> >> > Stop practicing and just BE your Buddha Nature!
> >> >
> >> > Edgar
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> > > Edgar,
> >> > >
> >> > > Therefore, although each of us is complete, we need to practice
> >> > > diligently at all times with no objective in mind?
> >> > >
> >> > > --ED
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> > > > Joe and Merle,
> >> > > >
> >> > > > There is no 'goal' of enlightenment to be achieved without which
> >> you
> >> > > imagine you are incomplete
> >> > > >
> >> > > > There is no incompleteness. This understanding is an essential
> >> aspect
> >> > > of realization...
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Wham!
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Edgar
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>






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[Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"

[Bill!]

I agree with Edgar!

...and that's how we pump-up the post count so we can increase our commission 
checks and some day retire to become moderators of the Yahoo! Naked Yoga Forum.

...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen  wrote:
>
> Bill!, Mike and ED,
> 
> Yes, I'll continually fill your bowls with the gruel of realization while 
> Bill! continually washes it right out of your bowls! again
> :-)
> 
> EDgar
> 
> 
> 
> On Sep 2, 2012, at 7:16 AM, Bill! wrote:
> 
> > Mike and ED,
> > 
> > Or how about...Just continue to exchange posts with Edgar. He's got what 
> > seems to be an unlimited supply of rice gruel. He'll keep your bowl filled 
> > to the brim!
> > 
> > ...Bill!
> > 
> > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "Bill!"  wrote:
> > >
> > > Mike, Point taken, but this is the Zen Forum, not the Theravada Forum or 
> > > the Here-Have-Some-More-Rice-Gruel Forum.
> > > 
> > > ED, Just sit. Don't think. Just sit.
> > > 
> > > ...Bill!
> > > 
> > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown  wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Bill!,
> > > > 
> > > > A great instruction, and is certainly direct, but Joshu's instructions 
> > > > were given to a monk who had probably been practicing meditation for a 
> > > > long time and was already 'ripe' for awakening to happen. Imagine how 
> > > > useful that instruction would be to a neophyte coming off the street 
> > > > asking about the search for truth or something similar. Joshu's 
> > > > instruction is just that - an instruction. That's why i believe 
> > > > Buddha's skilful means (upaya) is so useful as a teaching method. On 
> > > > the one side we can have the direct pointing to the Dharma (Zen) and on 
> > > > the other we can have Therevada Buddhism with it's more step by step 
> > > > instructions, such as following the Noble eightfold Path. 
> > > > 
> > > > The Buddha was very wise to understand that there are many different 
> > > > kinds of people/cultures/personalities etc. out there and no one method 
> > > > will work for all. I think it should be clear now that "wash you bowls" 
> > > > just isn't going to work for someone like ED. If you agree, what else 
> > > > could you say that might help him?
> > > > 
> > > > Mike
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > From: Bill! 
> > > > To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
> > > > Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 9:48
> > > > Subject: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > Â  
> > > > ED,
> > > > 
> > > > Mind if Joshu and I jump in?
> > > > 
> > > > "WASH YOUR BOWLS!" That's how...Bill! (and Joshu)
> > > > 
> > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "ED"  wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > Edgar,
> > > > > 
> > > > > And how is this magic trick accomplished?
> > > > > 
> > > > > --ED
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen  wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ED,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Stop practicing and just BE your Buddha Nature!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Edgar
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > > > Edgar,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Therefore, although each of us is complete, we need to practice
> > > > > > > diligently at all times with no objective in mind?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --ED
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > > > > Joe and Merle,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > There is no 'goal' of enlightenment to be achieved without which
> > > > > you
> > > > > > > imagine you are incomplete
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > There is no incompleteness. This understanding is an essential
> > > > > aspect
> > > > > > > of realization...
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Wham!
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Edgar
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > 
> >
>






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[Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"

[Bill!]

;>)

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown  wrote:
>
> There's still a bowl?
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  From: Bill! 
> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
> Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 12:51
> Subject: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"
>  
> 
>   
> A clean bowl is realization...Bill!
> 
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown  wrote:
> >
> > Edgar,
> > 
> > Exactly.
> > 
> > Mike
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > ________
> >  From: Edgar Owen 
> > To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
> > Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 12:35
> > Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"
> > 
> > 
> >   
> > Mike,
> > 
> > Yes, the problem with these pithy 'in crowd' Zen sayings is that bowls can 
> > be washed WITHOUT realization just as they can be WITH realization...
> > 
> > Edgar
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > On Sep 2, 2012, at 6:19 AM, mike brown wrote:
> > 
> >   
> > >
> > >
> > >Bill!,
> > >
> > >A great instruction, and is certainly direct, but Joshu's instructions 
> > >were given to a monk who had probably been practicing meditation for a 
> > >long time and was already 'ripe' for awakening to happen. Imagine how 
> > >useful that instruction would be to a neophyte coming off the street 
> > >asking about the search for truth or something similar. Joshu's 
> > >instruction is just that - an instruction. That's why i believe Buddha's 
> > >skilful means (upaya) is so useful as a teaching method. On the one side 
> > >we can have the direct pointing to the Dharma (Zen) and on the other we 
> > >can have Therevada Buddhism with it's more step by step instructions, such 
> > >as following the Noble eightfold Path. 
> > >
> > >The Buddha was very wise to understand that there are many different kinds 
> > >of people/cultures/personalities etc. out there and no one method will work
> >  for all. I think it should be clear now that "wash you bowls" just isn't 
> > going to work for someone like ED. If you agree, what else could you say 
> > that might help him?
> > >
> > >Mike
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > From: Bill! 
> > >To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
> > >Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 9:48
> > >Subject: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"
> > > 
> > >
> > >  
> > >ED,
> > >
> > >Mind if Joshu and I jump in?
> > >
> > >"WASH YOUR BOWLS!"  That's how...Bill! (and Joshu)
> > >
> > >--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "ED"  wrote:
> > >>
> > >> 
> > >> 
> > >> Edgar,
> > >> 
> > >> And how is this magic trick accomplished?
> > >> 
> > >> --ED
> > >> 
> > >> 
> > >> 
> > >> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen  wrote:
> > >> >
> > >> > ED,
> > >> >
> > >> > Stop practicing and just BE your Buddha Nature!
> > >> >
> > >> > Edgar
> > >> 
> > >> 
> > >> 
> > >> > > Edgar,
> > >> > >
> > >> > > Therefore, although each of us is complete, we need to practice
> > >> > > diligently at all times with no objective in mind?
> > >> > >
> > >> > > --ED
> > >> 
> > >> 
> > >> 
> > >> > > > Joe and Merle,
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > There is no 'goal' of enlightenment to be achieved without which
> > >> you
> > >> > > imagine you are incomplete
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > There is no incompleteness. This understanding is an essential
> > >> aspect
> > >> > > of realization...
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > Wham!
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > Edgar
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>






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[Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"

[ED]

Bill! -

Yes, I get it.

--ED

PS: Why is the Zen forum brimming with ideation, thinking and chatter?



--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "Bill!"  wrote:
>
Mike, Point taken, but this is the Zen Forum, not the Theravada Forum or
the
Here-Have-Some-More-Rice-Gruel Forum.

ED, Just sit. Don't think. Just sit.

...Bill!



--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
 ,
mike brown  wrote:
>
> Bill!,
>
> A great instruction, and is certainly direct, but Joshu's instructions
were
given to a monk who had probably been practicing meditation for a long
time and
was already 'ripe' for awakening to happen. Imagine how useful that
instruction
would be to a neophyte coming off the street asking about the search for
truth
or something similar. Joshu's instruction is just that - an instruction.
That's
why i believe Buddha's skilful means (upaya) is so useful as a teaching
method.
On the one side we can have the direct pointing to the Dharma (Zen) and
on the
other we can have Therevada Buddhism with it's more step by step
instructions,
such as following the Noble eightfold Path.
>
> The Buddha was very wise to understand that there are many different
kinds of
people/cultures/personalities etc. out there and no one method will work
for
all. I think it should be clear now that "wash you bowls" just isn't
going to
work for someone like ED. If you agree, what else could you say that
might help
him?
>
> Mike


> ED,
>
> Mind if Joshu and I jump in?
>
> "WASH YOUR BOWLS!" That's how...Bill! (and Joshu)



> > Edgar,
> >
> > And how is this magic trick accomplished?
> >
> > --ED


> > > ED,
> > >
> > > Stop practicing and just BE your Buddha Nature!
> > >
> > > Edgar



> > > > Edgar,
> > > >
> > > > Therefore, although each of us is complete, we need to practice
> > > > diligently at all times with no objective in mind?
> > > >
> > > > --ED



> > > > > Joe and Merle,
> > > > >
> > > > > There is no 'goal' of enlightenment to be achieved without
which
> > you
> > > > imagine you are incomplete
> > > > >
> > > > > There is no incompleteness. This understanding is an essential
> > aspect
> > > > of realization...
> > > > >
> > > > > Wham!
> > > > >
> > > > > Edgar

[Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"

[ED]

  Mike,

"Shut up and sit. Just THIS. Be here now. Walk on."

What 'helping' do you believe I or anyone else on this forum needs?

--ED

PS: Is Zen really as complicated as these wordy discussions make it out
to be?



--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown  wrote:

Bill!,
The Buddha was very wise to understand that there are many different
kinds of people/cultures/personalities etc. out there and no one method
will work for all. I think it should be clear now that "wash you bowls"
just isn't going to work for someone like ED. If you agree, what else
could you say that might help him?
Mike

[Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"

[ED]

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown  wrote:
>
>  Self/Buddha Nature/Awareness is unborn (and therefore never dies) and
so is ever present regardless of what we are thinking/doing.

ED: This is a thought/conception/belief/assumption.)



> But suffering arises when we think there is an independent 'I' having
those thoughts.

ED: This is a core teaching of the Buddha.


> Mike

[Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"

[Bill!]

Edgar,

I did get this post but no 'Kwatz' moment.  More like a 'Plop'.  Again.

Illusions are not Buddha Nature.  Illusions obscure Buddha Nature.  To become 
aware of Buddha Nature you must first halt (albeit temporarily) illusions 
(thought).  Zen literature refers to this as a parting of the clouds revealing 
the sun.  After you are aware of Buddha Nature you can accommodate illusions 
just as after you see the sun you can suffer the return of clouds.

Clouds are not the sun.  Illusions are not Buddha Nature.  Buddha Nature is 
direct experience of reality, and this is ONLY available through what we call 
the senses.

...and there is no koan in your post, nor mine.  There are enough koans to 
address this.  Here's my all time favorite tailored especially for you:

[Edgar]  Are illusions Buddha Nature?
[Bill!]  KWATZ!  Now SHOW ME or BRING ME 'KWATZ!'.

(And MOST IMPORTANTLY please notice I did NOT ask: 'Write me a 30-page exegesis 
on the similarities and differences of Illusions and Buddha Nature' or 
explaining the meaning of 'KWATZ'.

...Bill!





--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen  wrote:
>
> Bill!
> 
> And that my friend is precisely the problem. Logic, like everything else that 
> exists IS Buddha Nature. Because there is nothing that is NOT Buddha nature...
> 
> I think we've honed into the absolute kernel and crux of the disagreement 
> right here ...
> 
> See what I'm saying?
> 
> You adopt a dualistic view by denying part of what exists is part of Buddha 
> Nature. 
> I point out there is no such dualism because everything that exists is part 
> of reality (Buddha Nature) by definition, including things such as logic and 
> your daily life using logic making a living, that you deny is part of Buddha 
> Nature. 
> 
> 
> This is the MOST IMPORTANT post of mine to Bill! ever! I only hope this will 
> be a super Kwatz moment and that Bill! won't try to avoid and ignore the koan 
> as usual
> 
> Edgar
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Sep 2, 2012, at 7:32 AM, Bill! wrote:
> 
> > Edgar,
> > 
> > Sometimes I think you don't read my posts.
> > 
> > I NEVER said I don't use logic. I use it all the time. I make my living 
> > using it. I don't however mistake logic for Buddha Nature.
> > 
> > ...Bill!
> > 
> > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen  wrote:
> > >
> > > Bill!,
> > > 
> > > Proving Bill! still uses his considerable intelligence to negotiate the 
> > > rational world of forms contrary to what he claims and would have us 
> > > believe 
> > > :-)
> > > 
> > > Edgar
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > On Sep 2, 2012, at 4:46 AM, Bill! wrote:
> > > 
> > > > Bill,
> > > > 
> > > > I've had a lot of practice trying to follow Edgar's posts. I'm sure 
> > > > you'll get the hang of it sooner or later.
> > > > 
> > > > ...Bill!
> > > > 
> > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, William Rintala  wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Thank you for that Edgar. I can follow your emails better if you 
> > > > > give them to 
> > > > > me a teaspoon at a time, unlike Bill! who seems to follow what you 
> > > > > say with 
> > > > > ease. 
> > > > > 
> > > > > Â Bill not Bill! 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > Find what makes your heart sing…and do it! 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > From: Edgar Owen 
> > > > > To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > Sent: Sat, September 1, 2012 6:36:59 AM
> > > > > Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"
> > > > > 
> > > > > Â 
> > > > > Joe and Merle, 
> > > > > 
> > > > > There is no 'goal' of enlightenment to be achieved without which you 
> > > > > imagine you 
> > > > > are incomplete
> > > > > 
> > > > > There is no incompleteness. This understanding is an essential aspect 
> > > > > of 
> > > > > realization...
> > > > > 
> > > > > Wham!
> > > > > 
> > > > > Edgar
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > >

[Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"

[Bill!]

Edgar and Mike,

I know that story well, but I was expanding on the other story - Joshu's WASH 
YOUR BOWLS.  To combine the two I'd have to say that after you have a clean 
bowl and no longer hunger for more rice gruel you no longer have any need for 
your bowl.

...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen  wrote:
>
> Bill!
> 
> Completely wrong! That's the view that was rejected by the master who chose 
> Hui Neng over the monk who claimed Zen was keeping the mirror free of dust
> 
> Read Hui Neng's poem again.
> 
> There is NO mirror that needs dusting to keep it clean. 
> There is NO bowl that needs to be washed!
> 
> 
> Edgar
> 
> 
> 
> On Sep 2, 2012, at 7:51 AM, Bill! wrote:
> 
> > A clean bowl is realization...Bill!
> > 
> > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown  wrote:
> > >
> > > Edgar,
> > > 
> > > Exactly.
> > > 
> > > Mike
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > ________
> > > From: Edgar Owen 
> > > To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
> > > Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 12:35
> > > Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Â  
> > > Mike,
> > > 
> > > Yes, the problem with these pithy 'in crowd' Zen sayings is that bowls 
> > > can be washed WITHOUT realization just as they can be WITH realization...
> > > 
> > > Edgar
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > On Sep 2, 2012, at 6:19 AM, mike brown wrote:
> > > 
> > > Â  
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >Bill!,
> > > >
> > > >A great instruction, and is certainly direct, but Joshu's instructions 
> > > >were given to a monk who had probably been practicing meditation for a 
> > > >long time and was already 'ripe' for awakening to happen. Imagine how 
> > > >useful that instruction would be to a neophyte coming off the street 
> > > >asking about the search for truth or something similar. Joshu's 
> > > >instruction is just that - an instruction. That's why i believe Buddha's 
> > > >skilful means (upaya) is so useful as a teaching method. On the one side 
> > > >we can have the direct pointing to the Dharma (Zen) and on the other we 
> > > >can have Therevada Buddhism with it's more step by step instructions, 
> > > >such as following the Noble eightfold Path. 
> > > >
> > > >The Buddha was very wise to understand that there are many different 
> > > >kinds of people/cultures/personalities etc. out there and no one method 
> > > >will work
> > > for all. I think it should be clear now that "wash you bowls" just isn't 
> > > going to work for someone like ED. If you agree, what else could you say 
> > > that might help him?
> > > >
> > > >Mike
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > From: Bill! 
> > > >To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
> > > >Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 9:48
> > > >Subject: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"
> > > > 
> > > >
> > > >Â  
> > > >ED,
> > > >
> > > >Mind if Joshu and I jump in?
> > > >
> > > >"WASH YOUR BOWLS!" That's how...Bill! (and Joshu)
> > > >
> > > >--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "ED"  wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >> 
> > > >> 
> > > >> Edgar,
> > > >> 
> > > >> And how is this magic trick accomplished?
> > > >> 
> > > >> --ED
> > > >> 
> > > >> 
> > > >> 
> > > >> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen  wrote:
> > > >> >
> > > >> > ED,
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Stop practicing and just BE your Buddha Nature!
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Edgar
> > > >> 
> > > >> 
> > > >> 
> > > >> > > Edgar,
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > Therefore, although each of us is complete, we need to practice
> > > >> > > diligently at all times with no objective in mind?
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > --ED
> > > >> 
> > > >> 
> > > >> 
> > > >> > > > Joe and Merle,
> > > >> > > >
> > > >> > > > There is no 'goal' of enlightenment to be achieved without which
> > > >> you
> > > >> > > imagine you are incomplete
> > > >> > > >
> > > >> > > > There is no incompleteness. This understanding is an essential
> > > >> aspect
> > > >> > > of realization...
> > > >> > > >
> > > >> > > > Wham!
> > > >> > > >
> > > >> > > > Edgar
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > 
> >
>






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[Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"

[Bill!]

ED,

You post below is RIGHT ON POINT!

Zen is VERY, VERY SIMPLE!  If you hear anything complicated said about zen you 
can guarantee it is either false or just poorly constructed.  The less said the 
better!

But of course on a forum like this which requires ONLY text responses that is 
very difficult...so we type and type and type and type...

...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "ED"  wrote:
>
> 
> 
>   Mike,
> 
> "Shut up and sit. Just THIS. Be here now. Walk on."
> 
> What 'helping' do you believe I or anyone else on this forum needs?
> 
> --ED
> 
> PS: Is Zen really as complicated as these wordy discussions make it out
> to be?
> 
> 
> 
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown  wrote:
> 
> Bill!,
> The Buddha was very wise to understand that there are many different
> kinds of people/cultures/personalities etc. out there and no one method
> will work for all. I think it should be clear now that "wash you bowls"
> just isn't going to work for someone like ED. If you agree, what else
> could you say that might help him?
> Mike
>






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[Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"

[Bill!]

Mike,

The 'self' does not always exist.

I have experienced this myself and know many, many others that have also.  In 
fact this dissolving of 'self' is a pre-requisite (from my experience) to 
uncovering Buddha Nature.

Maybe in the post below when you used the term 'Self' in the last line you 
meant 'Buddha Nature'?  Or maybe you meant 'self' always returns?

...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown  wrote:
>
> Kris,
> 
> Very good! You must have given that a lot of thought ; )
> 
> >Self can be found nowhere else
> 
> Of course. Self/Buddha Nature/Awareness is unborn (and therefore never dies) 
> and so is ever present regardless of what we are thinking/doing. But 
> suffering arises when we think there is an independent 'I' having those 
> thoughts. That we have this Realisation is the difference. How this 
> Realisation manifests is unimportant. For some it will be sudden for others 
> gradual. But you're correct that Self alwaysis. 
> 
> Mke
> 
> 
> 
> ____________
>  From: Kristopher Grey 
> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
> Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 15:42
> Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"
>  
> 
>   
> On 9/2/2012 7:05 AM, mike brown wrote:
> > But if you do find yourself thinking, just come back gently to the breath.
> 
> A tri-ku for you:
> 
> With each rise and fall
> The breath is grasped and released
> Each, a birth and death
> 
> Immersed in thinking
> Self can be found nowhere else
> Always lost in thought
> 
> Mind, a stream of thought
> Following, or flowing by
> The way, like water
>






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[Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"

[Bill!]

Mike,

I apologize for butting-in so much but I think by writing "Self/Buddha 
Nature/Awareness..." and presumably equating them is a big error.  'Self' is 
not the same as Buddha Nature.  I'm not sure what you mean by 'Awareness', but 
if you mean what I think you mean, just awareness and nothing more, then I 
agree that could be equated with 'Buddha Nature'.  But not 'Self', unless I'm 
misunderstanding how you're using that term..

...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "ED"  wrote:
>
> 
> 
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown  wrote:
> >
> >  Self/Buddha Nature/Awareness is unborn (and therefore never dies) and
> so is ever present regardless of what we are thinking/doing.
> 
> ED: This is a thought/conception/belief/assumption.)
> 
> 
> 
> > But suffering arises when we think there is an independent 'I' having
> those thoughts.
> 
> ED: This is a core teaching of the Buddha.
> 
> 
> > Mike
>





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[Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"

[Bill!]

I agree with Mike's statement...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown  wrote:
>
> Kris,
> 
> >I might point out that apparent obscuration is no less reality than apparent 
> >clarity
> 
> Reality is certainly there regardless, but reality seen with obscuration 
> leads to suffering, whereas reality seen with clarity will lead to the 
> cessation of suffering. That's all I need to know and that is my witness.  
> 
> Mike
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  From: Kristopher Grey 
> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
> Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 16:11
> Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"
>  
> 
>   
> I might point out that apparent obscuration is no less reality than apparent 
> clarity. In doing so, this point only dances around itself - offers nothing 
> you can't realize directly.
> 
> What can anyone say in response that you will not directly
>   experience (realize) as some aspect of this reality/realization-
>   whether you realize it or not - just as when experiencing
>   meditation/not meditation?
> 
> This more or less business is you triangulating your position.
>   Nothing more, nothing less.
> 
> KG
> 
> 
> 
> On 9/2/2012 5:57 AM, mike brown wrote:
> 
>   
> >Edgar,
> >
> >
> >Wouldn't you say tho, that reality is less obscured during, or just after, a 
> >long retreat of meditation?
> >
> >
> >Mike
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > From: Edgar Owen 
> >To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
> >Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 1:13
> >Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"
> > 
> >
> >  
> >Mike,
> >
> >
> >Well, it's reality either way, but that reality is always changing as 
> >happening continually flows through the present moment. But however it 
> >changes it is still reality
> >
> >
> >Edgar
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >On Sep 1, 2012, at 6:09 PM, mike brown wrote:
> >
> >  
> >>
> >>
> >>Edgar,
> >>
> >>
> >>Would you say that the world (inner/outer) you look at now is the same as 
> >>when you're at the end of a sesshin? 
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>Mike
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> From: Edgar Owen 
> >>To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
> >>Sent: Saturday, 1 September 2012, 18:44
> >>Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"
> >> 
> >>
> >>  
> >>ED,
> >>
> >>
> >>Stop practicing and just BE your Buddha Nature!
> >>
> >>
> >>Edgar
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>On Sep 1, 2012, at 12:22 PM, ED wrote:
> >>
> >>  
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>Edgar,
> >>>
> >>>Therefore,
>   although each
>   of us is
>   complete, we
>   need to
>   practice
> >>>diligently at
>   all times with
>   no objective
>   in mind?
> >>>
> >>>--ED
> >>>
> >>>--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen  wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> Joe and
>   Merle,
> >>>>
> >>>> There is
>   no 'goal' of
>   enlightenment
>   to be achieved
>   without which
>   you
> >>>imagine you
>   are
>   incomplete
> >>>>
> >>>> There is
>   no
>   

[Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"

[Bill!]

Be Careful!  Remember Gutei's Finger!

KATZ!  ...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown  wrote:
>
> Chris,
> 
> Guess we could all just shout "Kwatz!" at each other from now on then...
> 
> Mike
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  From: Chris Austin-Lane 
> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
> Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 21:52
> Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"
>  
> 
>   
> This day it is the annotated Zen Forum. 
> On Sep 2, 2012 4:05 AM, "mike brown"  wrote:
> 
> 
> >
> >
> >Bill!,
> >
> >
> >
> >Isn't it the Zen BuddhistForum, at least by implication? Isn't it fair to 
> >talk about comparisons?
> >
> >
> >>ED, Just sit.  Don't think.  Just sit.
> >
> >
> >But if you do find yourself thinking, just come back gently to the breath. 
> >When you find your mind has become calm become mindful of how the breath (or 
> >any bodily sensations) arises and passes. How it is that there is no 'you' 
> >doing the breathing - rather the universe is breathing 'you'. Note how even 
> >pleasant sensations eventually pass and more unpleasant, or neutral, 
> >sensations take their place. With such mindfulness you may find you gain 
> >some insight into the 3 Characteristics of existence: impermanence, 
> >non-self, and the unsatisfactoriness of phenomena. With diligence and 
> >patience, you may become liberated from suffering. 
> >
> >
> >
> >Not exactly pithy, I admit. And Zen is certainly direct in pointing to our 
> >True Nature. But "wash your bowls", "just sit" and "Just This!" is also not 
> >'it' either. So if we're going to have instructions/guides, then there is 
> >definitely a place for more descriptive ones (even tho the endgame will 
> >always be that they are ultimately dropped). The method is NOT the 
> >meditation.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Mike
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > From: Bill! 
> >To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
> >Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 11:33
> >Subject: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"
> > 
> >
> >  
> >Mike,  Point taken, but this is the Zen Forum, not the Theravada Forum or 
> >the Here-Have-Some-More-Rice-Gruel Forum.
> >
> >ED, Just sit.  Don't think.  Just sit.
> >
> >...Bill!
> >
> >--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown  wrote:
> >>
> >> Bill!,
> >> 
> >> A great instruction, and is certainly direct, but Joshu's instructions 
> >> were given to a monk who had probably been practicing meditation for a 
> >> long time and was already 'ripe' for awakening to happen. Imagine how 
> >> useful that instruction would be to a neophyte coming off the street 
> >> asking about the search for truth or something similar. Joshu's 
> >> instruction is just that - an instruction. That's why i believe Buddha's 
> >> skilful means (upaya) is so useful as a teaching method. On the one side 
> >> we can have the direct pointing to the Dharma (Zen) and on the other we 
> >> can have Therevada Buddhism with it's more step by step instructions, such 
> >> as following the Noble eightfold Path. 
> >> 
> >> The Buddha was very wise to understand that there are many different kinds 
> >> of people/cultures/personalities etc. out there and no one method will 
> >> work for all. I think it should be clear now that "wash you bowls" just 
> >> isn't going to work for someone like ED. If you agree, what else could you 
> >> say that might help him?
> >> 
> >> Mike
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >>  From: Bill! 
> >> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
> >> Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 9:48
> >> Subject: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"
> >> 
> >> 
> >>   
> >> ED,
> >> 
> >> Mind if Joshu and I jump in?
> >> 
> >> "WASH YOUR BOWLS!"  That's how...Bill! (and Joshu)
> >> 
> >> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "ED"  wrote:
> >> >
> >> > 
> >> > 
> >> > Edgar,
> >> > 
> >> > And how is this magic trick accomplished?
> >> > 
> 

[Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"

[ED]

Hear! Hear!   :-(

--ED



--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown  wrote:
>

Kris,
>This takes no effort.
Ultimately, yes - in day to day living, no. At least not in the story of
my life. It's so easy to claim Buddhahood when things are going well,
but just watch that little house of cards coming crashing down when you
get a nasty hemorrhoids on a hot, sweaty day or your girlfriend cheats
on you. That's why even something as simple as being mindful of the
breath can be the most difficult thing in the world in such
circumstances. You can philosophise your way out of it here quite
easily, but meanwhile back in the real world [insert exegesis on 'real
world' here]..
Mike

From: Kristopher Grey 
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, 3 September 2012, 1:34
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"

This matter of whether there is or isn't isn't someone to suffer is all
smoke and mirrors. Suffering appears. This is clear enough. What is this
notion of "liberation from" but self relating to self? What appears,
appears. What of it?

Clarity, selfless. No self that need to see into itself. No such
conceptual contortions required.

Don't settle for nothing. Don't attach to anything. This takes no
effort.

KG

On 9/2/2012 5:35 PM, mike brown wrote:
Kris,
There is no one who suffers, but only after the realisation that there
isn't even a mind for suffering to happen to is there liberation from
it. "Clarity" here reads as insight.
Mike
From: Kristopher Grey 
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/post?postID=c_T-XuD5jk3qI_HTeeK\
Pb97zOew0JysPxJEB0NyJgwkV684Cd_CcmkGloxIs7ROrBY9pGQ9o>
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/post?postID=MdtJpVBRSbr4ZTPoeDO\
4IhSwEkfFN8kWfjuooMt1DE-oLDMsmoM1UZA2dUaK3gf1wEnSbfWYjngeYi5cDA8BOH_AiQ>
Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 20:23
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"

Then you still know too much. ;)

If it so clear as that, there is nothing to see. The 'obscuration' all
that may show the way. What you are seeing as separate only appears to
be. All a matter of how you see it. So who is leading who? Who suffers?
In seeking perfection, it forever eludes.

The clear minded are equally empty headed. Don't throw the Buddha out
with the bathwater.

KG

PS - Expresses simpler/more obviously wordlessly - see: 'Wabi Sabi' -
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wabi-sabi
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wabi-sabi>



On 9/2/2012 12:32 PM, mike brown wrote:
Kris,
>I might point out that apparent obscuration is no less reality than
apparent clarity

Reality is certainly there regardless, but reality seen with obscuration
leads to suffering, whereas reality seen with clarity will lead to the
cessation of suffering. That's all I need to know and that is my
witness.

Mike
From: Kristopher Grey 
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/post?postID=7cWX9ixHa3PtzLw42MA\
z4Al12GVQ-KBtM9pRTgM-eEalB63bz_cSmAwVAtT9_9yWVF0qtQ>
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/post?postID=qGOzt5qBObvK50P0DJ7\
SuoiVH1FHmQmF073dm3aaxIz1PMroQHg0N83WE5upRjVsfyVGLARCOqmh01vHbK3px7O61Q>
Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 16:11
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"

I might point out that apparent obscuration is no less reality than
apparent clarity. In doing so, this point only dances around itself -
offers nothing you can't realize directly.

What can anyone say in response that you will not directly experience
(realize) as some aspect of this reality/realization- whether you
realize it or not - just as when experiencing meditation/not meditation?

This more or less business is you triangulating your position. Nothing
more, nothing less.

KG



On 9/2/2012 5:57 AM, mike brown wrote:
Edgar,
Wouldn't you say tho, that reality is less obscured during, or just
after, a long retreat of meditation?
Mike
From: Edgar Owen 
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/post?postID=BUHohCw1HuCAFpDQFwa\
FDGC7A2AxgU7g-0suYZp8Ov_a1zLVt9Z6RsZ72SQSN4UrvVTdbrXYTkBIFY5S>
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/post?postID=wLAI4oaWj0Jbb1GEE2X\
lG5ljFfHEAYhiTKEyn8_qb6kUFw-3sDDiIQ3jkQPF8aOzvThvEbf-bR46XZjY8RJ_hAb9>
Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 1:13
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"

Mike,
Well, it's reality either way, but that reality is always changing as
happening continually flows through the present moment. But however it
changes it is still reality
Edgar


On Sep 1, 2012, at 6:09 PM, mike brown wrote:

Edgar,
Would you say that the world (inner/outer) you look at now is the same
as when you're at the end of a sesshin?

Mike

From: Edgar Owen http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/post?postID=YJyC_9GZwTKGjtaJXcX\
q-wc6pXOUZepJe4VhcrYiOSXSno-oAt0bM-_aQThYCGeP8sP7MjvXY2o> &g

[Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"

[Bill!]

Merle,

There is no spirit or chi.  There is no without and within.  There is Just THIS!

WASH YOUR BOWLS!

...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown  wrote:
>
> "Don't know"
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  From: Merle Lester 
> To: "Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com"  
> Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 22:47
> Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"
>  
> 
>   
> this morn i go to tai chi class... and gather the "chi" energy.i think a 
> spirit is out there mike..the chi is within what doth thee say 
> edgar?..merle
>  Edgar,
> 
> 
> 
> Don't you contradict yourself here somewhat? You were previously critical of 
> people from cultures where they may have a belief in dragons or rainbow 
> serpents etc. Aren't these beliefs part of the Truth (Buddha Nature) as well 
> then? Especially when they haven't had, or even when they have had, contact 
> with contemporary science. If you believe in 'chi' energy, what's the 
> difference in believing in 'spirit'?
> 
> Mike
> 
> 
> ____
>  From: Edgar Owen 
> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
> Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 13:00
> Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"
>  
> 
>   
> Bill!
> 
> And that my friend is precisely the problem. Logic, like everything else that 
> exists IS Buddha Nature. Because there is nothing that is NOT Buddha nature...
> 
> I think we've honed into the absolute kernel and crux of the disagreement 
> right here ...
> 
> See what I'm saying?
> 
> You adopt a dualistic view by denying part of what exists is part of Buddha 
> Nature. 
> I point out there is no such dualism because everything that exists is part 
> of reality (Buddha Nature) by definition, including things such as logic and 
> your daily life using logic making a living, that you deny is part of Buddha 
> Nature. 
> 
> 
> This is the MOST IMPORTANT post of mine to Bill! ever! I only hope this will 
> be a super Kwatz moment and that Bill! won't try to avoid and ignore the koan 
> as usual
> 
> Edgar
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Sep 2, 2012, at 7:32 AM, Bill! wrote:
> 
>   
> >Edgar,
> >
> >Sometimes I think you don't read my posts.
> >
> >I NEVER said I don't use logic.  I use it all the time.  I make my living 
> >using it.  I don't however mistake logic for Buddha Nature.
> >
> >...Bill!
> >
> >--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen  wrote:
> >>
> >> Bill!,
> >> 
> >> Proving Bill! still uses his considerable intelligence to negotiate the 
> >> rational world of forms contrary to what he claims and would have us 
> >> believe 
> >> :-)
> >> 
> >> Edgar
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> On Sep 2, 2012, at 4:46 AM, Bill! wrote:
> >> 
> >> > Bill,
> >> > 
> >> > I've had a lot of practice trying to follow Edgar's posts. I'm sure 
> >> > you'll get the hang of it sooner or later.
> >> > 
> >> > ...Bill!
> >> > 
> >> > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, William Rintala  wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > > Thank you for that Edgar.  I can follow your emails better if you 
> >> > > give them to 
> >> > > me a teaspoon at a time, unlike Bill! who seems to follow what you say 
> >> > > with 
> >> > > ease. 
> >> > > 
> >> > > Â Bill not Bill! 
> >> > > 
> >> > > 
> >> > > 
> >> > > 
> >> > > Find what makes your heart sing…and do it! 
> >> > > 
> >> > > 
> >> > > 
> >> > > 
> >> > > 
> >> > > From: Edgar Owen 
> >> > > To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> >> > > Sent: Sat, September 1, 2012 6:36:59 AM
> >> > > Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"
> >> > > 
> >> > > Â 
> >> > > Joe and Merle, 
> >> > > 
> >> > > There is no 'goal' of enlightenment to be achieved without which you 
> >> > > imagine you 
> >> > > are incomplete
> >> > > 
> >> > > There is no incompleteness. This understanding is an essential aspect 
> >> > > of 
> >> 

[Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"

[Bill!]

Mike,

That is clear and is what I thought you meant.  I just wanted to make sure 
everyone else also knew the difference between 'Self' and 'self'.  Thanks.

...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown  wrote:
>
> Bill!,
> 
> Self, Buddha Nature, Ground of Being, Awareness etc etc. are really all 
> convenient labels for 'mind and body dropped away'. This is our True Self, 
> Original Face. Small s self is our ordinary mind - the one that thinks 'Mike' 
> is real and separate from the world (dualistic). The Self that I refer to is 
> the no-self (non-dualistic) and is unborn and so doesn't come into existence 
> (always exists - just as the sun is still there when obscured by clouds). 
> Hope that's.. clear? 
> 
> Mike
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  From: Bill! 
> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
> Sent: Monday, 3 September 2012, 3:21
> Subject: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"
>  
> 
>   
> Mike,
> 
> The 'self' does not always exist.
> 
> I have experienced this myself and know many, many others that have also.  In 
> fact this dissolving of 'self' is a pre-requisite (from my experience) to 
> uncovering Buddha Nature.
> 
> Maybe in the post below when you used the term 'Self' in the last line you 
> meant 'Buddha Nature'?  Or maybe you meant 'self' always returns?
> 
> ...Bill!
> 
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown  wrote:
> >
> > Kris,
> > 
> > Very good! You must have given that a lot of thought ; )
> > 
> > >Self can be found nowhere else
> > 
> > Of course. Self/Buddha Nature/Awareness is unborn (and therefore never 
> > dies) and so is ever present regardless of what we are thinking/doing. But 
> > suffering arises when we think there is an independent 'I' having those 
> > thoughts. That we have this Realisation is the difference. How this 
> > Realisation manifests is unimportant. For some it will be sudden for others 
> > gradual. But you're correct that Self alwaysis. 
> > 
> > Mke
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >  From: Kristopher Grey 
> > To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
> > Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 15:42
> > Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"
> > 
> > 
> >   
> > On 9/2/2012 7:05 AM, mike brown wrote:
> > > But if you do find yourself thinking, just come back gently to the breath.
> > 
> > A tri-ku for you:
> > 
> > With each rise and fall
> > The breath is grasped and released
> > Each, a birth and death
> > 
> > Immersed in thinking
> > Self can be found nowhere else
> > Always lost in thought
> > 
> > Mind, a stream of thought
> > Following, or flowing by
> > The way, like water
> >
>






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[Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"

[Bill!]

Kris,

Everyone that has a bowl should consider washing it...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Kristopher Grey  wrote:
>
> 
> On 9/3/2012 8:35 PM, Bill! wrote:
> >
> > I just wanted to make sure everyone else also knew the difference 
> > between 'Self' and 'self'.
> >
> 
> 
> Which one washes it's bowl? *L*
> 
> 
> KG
> 
> 
> PS - Some 'Buddha's Witnesses' confuse Buddhianity with Christianism.
>






Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are 
reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links

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<*> To change settings online go to:
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[Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"

[Bill!]

Merle,

You are correct that reality comes with no frills, but you do have a choice.  
You can choose to invent frills (illusions) and become attached to them.  Or 
you can choose not to do that.  Choosing not to do and dropping all attachments 
is called 'washing your bowl'...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester  wrote:
>
>  take it as it comes..no frills...you do not have a choice ..merle
> 
> 
>   
> Merle,
> 
> >that's when zen is most needed mike...to get you through the day
> 
> Should I take it straight or on the rocks? ; )
> 
> Mike
> 
> 
> 
>  From: Merle Lester 
> To: "Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com"  
> Sent: Monday, 3 September 2012, 22:31
> Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"
>  
> 
>   
> 
> 
>  that's when zen is most needed mike...to get you through the day...merle
> 
> 
> Ultimately, yes - in day to day living, no. At least not in the story of my 
> life. It's so easy to claim Buddhahood when things are going well, but just 
> watch that little house of cards coming crashing down when you get a nasty 
> hemorrhoids on a hot, sweaty day or your girlfriend cheats on you. That's why 
> even something as simple as being mindful of the breath can be the most 
> difficult thing in the world in such circumstances. You can philosophise your 
> way out of it here quite easily, but meanwhile back in the real world [insert 
> exegesis on 'real world' here]..
> 
> Mike
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  From: Kristopher Grey 
> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
> Sent: Monday, 3 September 2012, 1:34
> Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"
>  
> 
>   
> This matter of whether there is or isn't isn't someone to suffer is all smoke 
> and mirrors. Suffering appears. This is clear enough. What is this notion of 
> "liberation from" but self relating to self? What appears, appears. What of 
> it?
> 
> Clarity, selfless. No self that need to see into itself. No such
>   conceptual contortions required.
> 
> Don't settle for nothing. Don't attach to anything. This takes no
>   effort.
> 
> KG
> 
> On 9/2/2012 5:35 PM, mike brown wrote:
> 
>   
> >Kris,
> >
> >
> >There is no one who suffers, but only after the realisation that there isn't 
> >even a mind for suffering to happen to is there liberation from it. 
> >"Clarity" here reads as insight.
> >
> >
> >Mike
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > From: Kristopher Grey 
> >To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
> >Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 20:23
> >Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"
> > 
> >
> >  
> >Then you still know too much. ;)
> >
> >If it so clear as that, there is nothing to
>   see. The 'obscuration' all that may show the
>   way. What you are seeing as separate only
>   appears to be. All a matter of how you see it.
>   So who is leading who? Who suffers? In seeking
>   perfection, it forever eludes.
> >
> >The clear minded are equally empty headed.
>   Don't throw the Buddha out with the bathwater.
> >
> >KG
> >
> >PS - Expresses simpler/more obviously
>   wordlessly - see: 'Wabi Sabi' - 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wabi-sabi
> >
> >
> >
> >On 9/2/2012 12:32 PM, mike brown wrote:
> >
> >  
> >>Kris,
> >>
> >>
> >>>I might point out that apparent obscuration is no less reality than 
> >>>apparent clarity
> >>
> >>Reality is certainly there regardless, but
>   reality seen with obscuration leads to
>   suffering, whereas reality seen with
>   clarity will lead to the cessation of
>   suffering. That's all I need to know and
>   that is my witness.  
> >>
> >>Mike 
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> From: Kristopher Grey 
> >>To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
> >>Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 16:11
> >>Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"
> >> 
> >>
> >>  
> >>I might point out 

[Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"

[Bill!]

KG,

'You' do have a choice and it is the rice that is dirtying your bowl.  Your 
illusory self is the one responsible for making the choice and putting more 
rice in or cleaning the bowl.  Your illusory self can choose one way or the 
other.

If you are not creating an illusory self (are manifesting Buddha Nature) then 
yes, as you've said before, there is no bowl and there is no choice to be made.

...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Kristopher Grey  wrote:
>
> Believing you make such a choice, is blaming the rice for dirtying your 
> bowl.
> 
> KG
> 
> 
> On 9/4/2012 9:05 PM, Bill! wrote:
> >
> > Merle,
> >
> > You are correct that reality comes with no frills, but you do have a 
> > choice. You can choose to invent frills (illusions) and become 
> > attached to them. Or you can choose not to do that. Choosing not to do 
> > and dropping all attachments is called 'washing your bowl'...Bill!
> >
> > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>, 
> > Merle Lester  wrote:
> > >
> > > Â take it as it comes..no frills...you do not have a choice ..merle
> > >
> > >
> > > Â
> > > Merle,
> > >
> > > >that's when zen is most needed mike...to get you through the day
> > >
> > > Should I take it straight or on the rocks? ; )
> > >
> > > Mike
> > >
> > >
> > > ________
> > > From: Merle Lester 
> > > To: "Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>" 
> > mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>>
> > > Sent: Monday, 3 September 2012, 22:31
> > > Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"
> > >
> > >
> > > Â
> > >
> > >
> > > Â that's when zen is most needed mike...to get you through the 
> > day...merle
> > >
> > >
> > > Ultimately, yes - in day to day living, no. At least not in the 
> > story of my life. It's so easy to claim Buddhahood when things are 
> > going well, but just watch that little house of cards coming crashing 
> > down when you get a nasty hemorrhoids on a hot, sweaty day or your 
> > girlfriend cheats on you. That's why even something as simple as being 
> > mindful of the breath can be the most difficult thing in the world in 
> > such circumstances. You can philosophise your way out of it here quite 
> > easily, but meanwhile back in the real world [insert exegesis on 'real 
> > world' here]..
> > >
> > > Mike
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > 
> > > From: Kristopher Grey 
> > > To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > Sent: Monday, 3 September 2012, 1:34
> > > Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"
> > >
> > >
> > > Â
> > > This matter of whether there is or isn't isn't someone to suffer is 
> > all smoke and mirrors. Suffering appears. This is clear enough. What 
> > is this notion of "liberation from" but self relating to self? What 
> > appears, appears. What of it?
> > >
> > > Clarity, selfless. No self that need to see into itself. No such
> > > conceptual contortions required.
> > >
> > > Don't settle for nothing. Don't attach to anything. This takes no
> > > effort.
> > >
> > > KG
> > >
> > > On 9/2/2012 5:35 PM, mike brown wrote:
> > >
> > > Â
> > > >Kris,
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >There is no one who suffers, but only after the realisation that 
> > there isn't even a mind for suffering to happen to is there liberation 
> > from it. "Clarity" here reads as insight.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >Mike
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > From: Kristopher Grey 
> > > >To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > >Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 20:23
> > > >Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >Â
> > > >Then you still know too much. ;)
> > > >
> > > >If it so clear as that, there is nothing to
> > > see. The 'obscuration' all that may show the
> >

[Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"

[Bill!]

Edgar,

Your illusory self makes decisions, classifications, judgement, etc..., all the 
time.  That's what it DOES.

An illusion certainly could be a 'misunderstanding' (I just call it 
'perception') of reality.

There's nothing at all wrong with my logic, although even if there were that 
wouldn't bother me.  I don't put a lot of faith in logic.

...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen  wrote:
>
> Bill! 
> 
> How can an illusory self "choose" to do anything? Illusions have no substance 
> or reality. An illusion is just a misunderstanding of reality.
> 
> Something is wrong with your logic here
> 
> Edgar
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Sep 4, 2012, at 10:17 PM, Bill! wrote:
> 
> > KG,
> > 
> > 'You' do have a choice and it is the rice that is dirtying your bowl. Your 
> > illusory self is the one responsible for making the choice and putting more 
> > rice in or cleaning the bowl. Your illusory self can choose one way or the 
> > other.
> > 
> > If you are not creating an illusory self (are manifesting Buddha Nature) 
> > then yes, as you've said before, there is no bowl and there is no choice to 
> > be made.
> > 
> > ...Bill!
> > 
> > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Kristopher Grey  wrote:
> > >
> > > Believing you make such a choice, is blaming the rice for dirtying your 
> > > bowl.
> > > 
> > > KG
> > > 
> > > 
> > > On 9/4/2012 9:05 PM, Bill! wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Merle,
> > > >
> > > > You are correct that reality comes with no frills, but you do have a 
> > > > choice. You can choose to invent frills (illusions) and become 
> > > > attached to them. Or you can choose not to do that. Choosing not to do 
> > > > and dropping all attachments is called 'washing your bowl'...Bill!
> > > >
> > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>, 
> > > > Merle Lester  wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Â take it as it comes..no frills...you do not have a choice ..merle
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Â
> > > > > Merle,
> > > > >
> > > > > >that's when zen is most needed mike...to get you through the day
> > > > >
> > > > > Should I take it straight or on the rocks? ; )
> > > > >
> > > > > Mike
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > 
> > > > > From: Merle Lester 
> > > > > To: "Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>" 
> > > > mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>>
> > > > > Sent: Monday, 3 September 2012, 22:31
> > > > > Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Â
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Â that's when zen is most needed mike...to get you through the 
> > > > day...merle
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Ultimately, yes - in day to day living, no. At least not in the 
> > > > story of my life. It's so easy to claim Buddhahood when things are 
> > > > going well, but just watch that little house of cards coming crashing 
> > > > down when you get a nasty hemorrhoids on a hot, sweaty day or your 
> > > > girlfriend cheats on you. That's why even something as simple as being 
> > > > mindful of the breath can be the most difficult thing in the world in 
> > > > such circumstances. You can philosophise your way out of it here quite 
> > > > easily, but meanwhile back in the real world [insert exegesis on 'real 
> > > > world' here]..
> > > > >
> > > > > Mike
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > 
> > > > > From: Kristopher Grey 
> > > > > To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > Sent: Monday, 3 September 2012, 1:34
> > > > > Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Â
> > > > > This matter of whether there is or isn't isn't someone to suffer is 
> > > > all smo

[Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"

[Bill!]

Bill,

How about 'Tough Love one another'...?

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, William Rintala  wrote:
>
> Just an observation here.  It is so hard to determine what is meant by what 
> is 
> written in emails.  I percieve stress in this last exchange, frustration, 
> almost 
> anger but then what was meant might be simply gentle prodding or poking.  
> 
> 
> Years ago I was involved in an email exchange regarding an issue at the 
> hospital 
> where I worked.  I responded to a query by asking "What is it about this 
> issue 
> that concerns you?" It was reported to my supervisor and I was asked to make 
> a 
> face to face apology.  When I realized that what I was asking could be 
> taken 
> negatively I was horrified and I've never trusted email since. 
> 
> 
> I don't know where it fits in Zen but "Love one another" needs to be there 
> somewhere.  Otherwise you end up punching yourself in the face.
>  Bill not Bill! 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Find what makes your heart sing…and do it! 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ____________
> From: Kristopher Grey 
> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Tue, September 4, 2012 1:12:29 AM
> Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"
> 
>   
> On 9/3/2012 6:46 PM, mike brown wrote:
> > I think you have a very shallow idea about what vipassana is. 
> 
> Doesn't matter a wit if I do or don't - but since you keep dragging your 
> cushion around for me to see: FWIW I don't think it's zoning out at all 
> (though some will use it that way). It's also not like you invented it, 
> or it's a big secret. Do you get a discount, or good karma, for 
> mentioning it? ;)
> 
> No matter what I express, you come back to you own assumptions about 
> what I think - mostly involving some perceived attack on your practice. 
> This makes one of us appears shallow, and the other appear simple 
> minded. You can choose which is which.
> 
> Any practice can be an escape - or retreat if you prefer. Why do you 
> think people organize/attend those? Some find it helpful to disengage in 
> that way. Creating greater contrast between self-awareness and 
> autopilot, until that sort of in/out of awareness structure implodes. 
> The house of cards you mentioned. Then 'practice' opens up.
> 
> My concern is with the user, not the practices used. With what they 
> think they are fixing, or what fix they are getting from it. A not so 
> subtle difference.
> 
> There is a similar difference to how you and I are using the term 
> 'mindfulness'. What you describe I might call a basic sense of 
> self-awareness. A sort of 'witnessing' with/as a conscience. This can be 
> developed, as it is still 'ordinary mind' (clearly not all have the same 
> capacities in this regard, and it appears to come and go, etc.). If 
> something you "do" then it's a form of mindfulness training, which is 
> still ordinary mind training (while such a distinction makes sense 
> anyway) and will serve as long as you still have ordinary uses for it 
> (meaning you are still alive/functioning). Catching and getting control 
> of the "ox". The higher and lower self business of other traditions. The 
> conflicted animal and godlike natures of man. Fortunately, even this 
> division can be seen as false. Short of that, much personal struggle 
> appears. All is seen through that lens.
> 
> Anyway, my point was not - despite your well intentioned but unnecessary 
> defenses/efforts to skew them as such - a criticism of your practice. I 
> was simply noting the way you appear to differentiate practice from 
> other experiences, maybe attaching some significance in the process that 
> reinforces this. How this is can be 'counterproductive', yet is also an 
> integral aspect of any practice, an aspect of what the practice reveals, 
> what is carried to all other experiences... what has always simply been 
> this experiencing...
> 
> Tomorrow, remind me to stick to one liners and crappy neo-haiku. Still 
> reeks of rotting flesh, but less dead bones for zen dogs to sniff 
> at/snarl over.
> 
> KG
> 
> PS - Equanimity is not a a lack of personality, or invariability of 
> reactions to what arises. No stone Buddha! "Cranky" was simply my 
> acknowledgement of what was presenting. Redirected energies, responding 
> differently to different stimuli/situations. I see no need wasting more 
> energy pretending to be this or that, unless I do. Something I used to 
> do to manipulate myself and others, I now only do if it aids 
> interactions with others. Looks the same.

[Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"

[Bill!]

Go Bill!  (That's Bill with an exclamation point added, not Bill! inn which the 
exclamation point is an integral part of the name - that would be Bill!!)

Bill!
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, William Rintala  wrote:
>
> Intentionally causing harm does.  Not knowing you or Mike I felt that the 
> comments were angry and aggressive.  My mistake.
> 
> Doesn't matter a wit if I do or don't - but since you keep dragging your 
> cushion around for me to see: FWIW I don't think it's zoning out at all 
> (though some will use it that way). It's also not like you invented it, 
> or it's a big secret. Do you get a discount, or good karma, for 
> mentioning it? ;)
> 
> No matter what I express, you come back to you own assumptions about 
> what I think - mostly involving some perceived attack on your practice. 
> This makes one of us appears shallow, and the other appear simple 
> minded. You can choose which is which.
> 
> Anyway, my point was not - despite your well intentioned but unnecessary 
> defenses/efforts to skew them as such - a criticism of your practice. 
> 
> Tomorrow, remind me to stick to one liners and crappy neo-haiku. Still 
> reeks of rotting flesh, but less dead bones for zen dogs to sniff 
> at/snarl over.
> 
>  Bill not Bill! 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Find what makes your heart sing…and do it! 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ____________
> From: Kristopher Grey 
> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wed, September 5, 2012 3:57:09 PM
> Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"
> 
>   
> On 9/5/2012 3:48 PM, William Rintala wrote:
> > When I realized that what I was asking could be taken negatively I was 
> > horrified and I've never trusted email since.
> 
> Typing on eggshells makes no less of a mess.
> 
> KG
>






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[Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"

[Joe]

Edgar,

I wished our sister Merle the chance to practice intensively not just for 
awakening, but also for some of the "side-effects".

Don't minimize them!

You see, she is an artist, a painter, and a good one.

Well... there are certain optical, visual, perceptual effects, which arise or 
manifest with awakening... which cannot be suppressed.  It's this benefit, 
result, blessing, which I had selfishly in mind, when I wished Merle the chance 
to practice intensively, with a teacher and sangha, ...you know how it goes.

The "main" stuff would take care of itself, but I looked for the side-effect 
results from her.

Maybe it's not to be.

I'll have to content myself with her already amazing paintings.  ;-)

Cheers,

--Joe

> Edgar Owen  wrote:
>
> Joe and Merle,
> 
> There is no 'goal' of enlightenment to be achieved without which you imagine 
> you are incomplete






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Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"

[Merle Lester]

 hi joe... i have no way of finding a teacher..i must be my own teacher    yes 
i do develop attachments...i am human..

. ...i do go backwards and i do dwell in the past...i reflect.
.i think what if how come, if only..should i have...all that stuff.
.and i create my own horror in the now and in the future..with the maybes etc..

..i try to see this is not the way..i know in my heart of hearts this is not 
tao the way.

.i do not dance on daffodils ..i tiptoe..i would never crush them.

..why this "hatred" of the dancing with the daffodils?.
.it is only reflection of a sun filled mind..full of light..and openness and 
lightness of being.
.otherwise it would be for me a dark murky dull grey... a doom a gloom...i know 
these places well

 i may develop attachments to optical vision
..but bare in mind joe..i transform what i see...i do not copy nature..i record 
my "feelings, my insights, my delights..do you get my drift?

 when buzz landed on the moon i was in the classroom teaching art..with the t.v 
on...yea..
.
you are younger than me..i turn 67 on 23rd sept

 as for nature...she is my light

 what others think of nature?

 how do i know?
 i know what i know
 and that sums it up

 if my understanding of zen is so poor...
 i am still learning
 i listen and learn
 that is all i can do

 attachment desire...
 release me please

 i long for peace but do i have it?
i long for love but do i have it?

 i long for knowing but do i have it?

 i await
 patiently
for release
 all the best joe..
 with love merle

  
Hiya, Merle,

Nonetheless, practice formally if you are able.

If you are not able, then find some way to do it.  ;-)

It's as important as that.  Life is a little bit short, nowadays.

If you report-back that it is all B.S., then we'll understand that it is so, 
for you... once you have given it your ALL, with a good teacher, and sangha.

But I think you'll have a more positive experience, and report.

In fact, I worry that you may develop attachments, especially in the realm, or 
area, of the Optical-sense.  But when I see the paintings that afterwards 
result, coming from your studio, THAT will assuage my concerns, probably, and 
bath me in balm, I am sure.  And this is what I look forward to.

Yet, it's not selfishness, on my part.

And, I am not attached to the possibility.  But I have hopes that EVERYONE who 
wishes to practice under the best conditions may have their wish, and will 
awaken.  Not just because I have done it, and have had the wonder and miracle 
of this chance a number of times, as many of us have, in company with so many 
others throughout History, and among our intimate acquaintances: but, because 
so many others have *not*.

I know what I'm wishing you, and others, I mean.

Otherwise... may the veiled-life suffice!  One can't disparage where we are.  
One can only either realize, or not realize.  Realize means realizing where we 
are already, but being the most clear about it.  That's not a movement to 
somewhere else, but it is a very, very big step, as momentous as the late Neil 
Armstrong's.  Will you trust me, about this, in this?

I was 17 when he and Buzz landed, and walked, and Mike Collins orbited, 
station-keeping for them.  Life was different after that.  I could write 
volumes about how.

Maybe I'm a relic.  Maybe, someday, to be appreciated.  ;-)

--Joe

> Merle Lester  wrote:
>
> ..am i on track.?
>


 

Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"

[Edgar Owen]

Joe and Merle,

There is no 'goal' of enlightenment to be achieved without which you imagine 
you are incomplete

There is no incompleteness. This understanding is an essential aspect of 
realization...

Wham!

Edgar



On Aug 30, 2012, at 11:51 PM, Joe wrote:

> Hiya, Merle,
> 
> Nonetheless, practice formally if you are able.
> 
> If you are not able, then find some way to do it. ;-)
> 
> It's as important as that. Life is a little bit short, nowadays.
> 
> If you report-back that it is all B.S., then we'll understand that it is so, 
> for you... once you have given it your ALL, with a good teacher, and sangha.
> 
> But I think you'll have a more positive experience, and report.
> 
> In fact, I worry that you may develop attachments, especially in the realm, 
> or area, of the Optical-sense. But when I see the paintings that afterwards 
> result, coming from your studio, THAT will assuage my concerns, probably, and 
> bath me in balm, I am sure. And this is what I look forward to.
> 
> Yet, it's not selfishness, on my part.
> 
> And, I am not attached to the possibility. But I have hopes that EVERYONE who 
> wishes to practice under the best conditions may have their wish, and will 
> awaken. Not just because I have done it, and have had the wonder and miracle 
> of this chance a number of times, as many of us have, in company with so many 
> others throughout History, and among our intimate acquaintances: but, because 
> so many others have *not*.
> 
> I know what I'm wishing you, and others, I mean.
> 
> Otherwise... may the veiled-life suffice! One can't disparage where we are. 
> One can only either realize, or not realize. Realize means realizing where we 
> are already, but being the most clear about it. That's not a movement to 
> somewhere else, but it is a very, very big step, as momentous as the late 
> Neil Armstrong's. Will you trust me, about this, in this?
> 
> I was 17 when he and Buzz landed, and walked, and Mike Collins orbited, 
> station-keeping for them. Life was different after that. I could write 
> volumes about how.
> 
> Maybe I'm a relic. Maybe, someday, to be appreciated. ;-)
> 
> --Joe
> 
> > Merle Lester  wrote:
> >
> > ..am i on track.?
> >
> 
> 

Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"

[Edgar Owen]

Merle,

Everyone, being human, has attachments. The trick is not to be attached to your 
attachments!

When attachments arise just let them pass. There is always something else new 
and fresh to fill the emptiness


(more accurately manifest rather than fill the emptiness)

Let attention not follow the attachment to pull it back to the present, but let 
attention look to where something wonderful is coming into being right now

Edgar




On Aug 31, 2012, at 4:15 AM, Merle Lester wrote:

> 
>  hi joe... i have no way of finding a teacher..i must be my own teacher
> yes i do develop attachments...i am human..
> 
> . ...i do go backwards and i do dwell in the past...i reflect.
> .i think what if how come, if only..should i have...all that stuff.
> .and i create my own horror in the now and in the future..with the maybes 
> etc..
> 
> ..i try to see this is not the way..i know in my heart of hearts this is not 
> tao the way.
> 
> .i do not dance on daffodils ..i tiptoe..i would never crush them.
> 
> ..why this "hatred" of the dancing with the daffodils?.
> .it is only reflection of a sun filled mind..full of light..and openness and 
> lightness of being.
> .otherwise it would be for me a dark murky dull grey... a doom a gloom...i 
> know these places well
> 
>  i may develop attachments to optical vision
> ..but bare in mind joe..i transform what i see...i do not copy nature..i 
> record my "feelings, my insights, my delights..do you get my drift?
> 
>  when buzz landed on the moon i was in the classroom teaching art..with the 
> t.v on...yea..
> .
> you are younger than me..i turn 67 on 23rd sept
> 
>  as for nature...she is my light
> 
>  what others think of nature?
> 
>  how do i know?
>  i know what i know
>  and that sums it up
> 
>  if my understanding of zen is so poor...
>  i am still learning
>  i listen and learn
>  that is all i can do
> 
>  attachment desire...
>  release me please
> 
>  i long for peace but do i have it?
> i long for love but do i have it?
> 
>  i long for knowing but do i have it?
> 
>  i await
>  patiently
> for release
>  all the best joe..
>  with love merle
> 
>  
> Hiya, Merle,
> 
> Nonetheless, practice formally if you are able.
> 
> If you are not able, then find some way to do it. ;-)
> 
> It's as important as that. Life is a little bit short, nowadays.
> 
> If you report-back that it is all B.S., then we'll understand that it is so, 
> for you... once you have given it your ALL, with a good teacher, and sangha.
> 
> But I think you'll have a more positive experience, and report.
> 
> In fact, I worry that you may develop attachments, especially in the realm, 
> or area, of the Optical-sense. But when I see the paintings that afterwards 
> result, coming from your studio, THAT will assuage my concerns, probably, and 
> bath me in balm, I am sure. And this is what I look forward to.
> 
> Yet, it's not selfishness, on my part.
> 
> And, I am not attached to the possibility. But I have hopes that EVERYONE who 
> wishes to practice under the best conditions may have their wish, and will 
> awaken. Not just because I have done it, and have had the wonder and miracle 
> of this chance a number of times, as many of us have, in company with so many 
> others throughout History, and among our intimate acquaintances: but, because 
> so many others have *not*.
> 
> I know what I'm wishing you, and others, I mean.
> 
> Otherwise... may the veiled-life suffice! One can't disparage where we are. 
> One can only either realize, or not realize. Realize means realizing where we 
> are already, but being the most clear about it. That's not a movement to 
> somewhere else, but it is a very, very big step, as momentous as the late 
> Neil Armstrong's. Will you trust me, about this, in this?
> 
> I was 17 when he and Buzz landed, and walked, and Mike Collins orbited, 
> station-keeping for them. Life was different after that. I could write 
> volumes about how.
> 
> Maybe I'm a relic. Maybe, someday, to be appreciated. ;-)
> 
> --Joe
> 
> > Merle Lester  wrote:
> >
> > ..am i on track.?
> >
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 

Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"

[Merle Lester]

edgar..this is good sound advice..thank you... i must be ever mindful...bless 
you.

.thank you for taking the time to assist me through my uncertainty and the 
never ending tangles and knots in my mind..
. enjoy your weekend...merle


  
Merle,

Everyone, being human, has attachments. The trick is not to be attached to your 
attachments!

When attachments arise just let them pass. There is always something else new 
and fresh to fill the emptiness


(more accurately manifest rather than fill the emptiness)

Let attention not follow the attachment to pull it back to the present, but let 
attention look to where something wonderful is coming into being right now

Edgar





On Aug 31, 2012, at 4:15 AM, Merle Lester wrote:

  
>
>
> hi joe... i have no way of finding a teacher..i must be my own teacher    yes 
>i do develop attachments...i am human..
>
>
>. ...i do go backwards and i do dwell in the past...i reflect.
>.i think what if how come, if only..should i have...all that stuff.
>.and i create my own horror in the now and in the future..with the maybes etc..
>
>
>..i try to see this is not the way..i know in my heart of hearts this is not 
>tao the way.
>
>
>.i do not dance on daffodils ..i tiptoe..i would never crush them.
>
>
>..why this "hatred" of the dancing with the daffodils?.
>.it is only reflection of a sun filled mind..full of light..and openness and 
>lightness of being.
>.otherwise it would be for me a dark murky dull grey... a doom a gloom...i 
>know these places well
>
>
> i may develop attachments to optical vision
>..but bare in mind joe..i transform what i see...i do not copy nature..i 
>record my "feelings, my insights, my delights..do you get my drift?
>
>
> when buzz landed on the moon i was in the classroom teaching art..with the 
>t.v on...yea..
>.
>you are younger than me..i turn 67 on 23rd sept
>
>
> as for nature...she is my light
>
>
> what others think of nature?
>
>
> how do i know?
> i know what i know
> and that sums it up
>
>
> if my understanding of zen is so poor...
> i am still learning
> i listen and learn
> that is all i can do
>
>
> attachment desire...
> release me please
>
>
> i long for peace but do i have it?
>i long for love but do i have it?
>
>
> i long for knowing but do i have it?
>
>
> i await
> patiently
>for release
> all the best joe..
> with love merle
>
>
>  
>Hiya, Merle,
>
>Nonetheless, practice formally if you are able.
>
>If you are not able, then find some way to do it.  ;-)
>
>It's as important as that.  Life is a little bit short, nowadays.
>
>If you report-back that it is all B.S., then we'll understand that it is so, 
>for you... once you have given it your ALL, with a good teacher, and sangha.
>
>But I think you'll have a more positive experience, and report.
>
>In fact, I worry that you may develop attachments, especially in the realm, or 
>area, of the Optical-sense.  But when I see the paintings that afterwards 
>result, coming from your studio, THAT will assuage my concerns, probably, and 
>bath me in balm, I am sure.  And this is what I look forward to.
>
>Yet, it's not selfishness, on my part.
>
>And, I am not attached to the possibility.  But I have hopes that EVERYONE who 
>wishes to practice under the best conditions may have their wish, and will 
>awaken.  Not just because I have done it, and have had the wonder and miracle 
>of this chance a number of times, as many of us have, in company with so many 
>others throughout History, and among our intimate acquaintances: but, because 
>so many others have *not*.
>
>I know what I'm wishing you, and others, I mean.
>
>Otherwise... may the veiled-life suffice!  One can't disparage where we are.  
>One can only either realize, or not realize.  Realize means realizing where we 
>are already, but being the most clear about it.  That's not a movement to 
>somewhere else, but it is a very, very big step, as momentous as the late Neil 
>Armstrong's.  Will you trust me, about this, in this?
>
>I was 17 when he and Buzz landed, and walked, and Mike Collins orbited, 
>station-keeping for them.  Life was different after that.  I could write 
>volumes about how.
>
>Maybe I'm a relic.  Maybe, someday, to be appreciated.  ;-)
>
>--Joe
>
>> Merle Lester  wrote:
>>
>> ..am i on track.?
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>

 

Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"

[Edgar Owen]

Joe and Merle,

There is no 'goal' of enlightenment to be achieved without which you imagine 
you are incomplete

There is no incompleteness. This understanding is an essential aspect of 
realization...

Wham!

Edgar



On Aug 30, 2012, at 11:51 PM, Joe wrote:

> Hiya, Merle,
> 
> Nonetheless, practice formally if you are able.
> 
> If you are not able, then find some way to do it. ;-)
> 
> It's as important as that. Life is a little bit short, nowadays.
> 
> If you report-back that it is all B.S., then we'll understand that it is so, 
> for you... once you have given it your ALL, with a good teacher, and sangha.
> 
> But I think you'll have a more positive experience, and report.
> 
> In fact, I worry that you may develop attachments, especially in the realm, 
> or area, of the Optical-sense. But when I see the paintings that afterwards 
> result, coming from your studio, THAT will assuage my concerns, probably, and 
> bath me in balm, I am sure. And this is what I look forward to.
> 
> Yet, it's not selfishness, on my part.
> 
> And, I am not attached to the possibility. But I have hopes that EVERYONE who 
> wishes to practice under the best conditions may have their wish, and will 
> awaken. Not just because I have done it, and have had the wonder and miracle 
> of this chance a number of times, as many of us have, in company with so many 
> others throughout History, and among our intimate acquaintances: but, because 
> so many others have *not*.
> 
> I know what I'm wishing you, and others, I mean.
> 
> Otherwise... may the veiled-life suffice! One can't disparage where we are. 
> One can only either realize, or not realize. Realize means realizing where we 
> are already, but being the most clear about it. That's not a movement to 
> somewhere else, but it is a very, very big step, as momentous as the late 
> Neil Armstrong's. Will you trust me, about this, in this?
> 
> I was 17 when he and Buzz landed, and walked, and Mike Collins orbited, 
> station-keeping for them. Life was different after that. I could write 
> volumes about how.
> 
> Maybe I'm a relic. Maybe, someday, to be appreciated. ;-)
> 
> --Joe
> 
> > Merle Lester  wrote:
> >
> > ..am i on track.?
> >
> 
> 

Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"

[William Rintala]

Thank you for that Edgar.  I can follow your emails better if you give them to 
me a teaspoon at a time, unlike Bill! who seems to follow what you say with 
ease. 

 Bill not Bill! 




Find what makes your heart sing…and do it! 





From: Edgar Owen 
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sat, September 1, 2012 6:36:59 AM
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"

  
Joe and Merle, 

There is no 'goal' of enlightenment to be achieved without which you imagine 
you 
are incomplete

There is no incompleteness. This understanding is an essential aspect of 
realization...

Wham!

Edgar




On Aug 30, 2012, at 11:51 PM, Joe wrote:

  
>Hiya, Merle,
>
>Nonetheless, practice formally if you are able.
>
>If you are not able, then find some way to do it. ;-)
>
>It's as important as that. Life is a little bit short, nowadays.
>
>If you report-back that it is all B.S., then we'll understand that it is so, 
>for 
>you... once you have given it your ALL, with a good teacher, and sangha.
>
>But I think you'll have a more positive experience, and report.
>
>In fact, I worry that you may develop attachments, especially in the realm, or 
>area, of the Optical-sense. But when I see the paintings that afterwards 
>result, 
>coming from your studio, THAT will assuage my concerns, probably, and bath me 
>in 
>balm, I am sure. And this is what I look forward to.
>
>Yet, it's not selfishness, on my part.
>
>And, I am not attached to the possibility. But I have hopes that EVERYONE who 
>wishes to practice under the best conditions may have their wish, and will 
>awaken. Not just because I have done it, and have had the wonder and miracle 
>of 
>this chance a number of times, as many of us have, in company with so many 
>others throughout History, and among our intimate acquaintances: but, because 
>so 
>many others have *not*.
>
>I know what I'm wishing you, and others, I mean.
>
>Otherwise... may the veiled-life suffice! One can't disparage where we are. 
>One 
>can only either realize, or not realize. Realize means realizing where we are 
>already, but being the most clear about it. That's not a movement to somewhere 
>else, but it is a very, very big step, as momentous as the late Neil 
>Armstrong's. Will you trust me, about this, in this?
>
>I was 17 when he and Buzz landed, and walked, and Mike Collins orbited, 
>station-keeping for them. Life was different after that. I could write volumes 
>about how.
>
>Maybe I'm a relic. Maybe, someday, to be appreciated. ;-)
>
>--Joe
>
>> Merle Lester  wrote:
>>
>> ..am i on track.?
>>
>
>

Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"

[Edgar Owen]

ED,

Stop practicing and just BE your Buddha Nature!

Edgar


On Sep 1, 2012, at 12:22 PM, ED wrote:

> 
> 
> Edgar,
> 
> Therefore, although each of us is complete, we need to practice
> diligently at all times with no objective in mind?
> 
> --ED
> 
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen  wrote:
> >
> > Joe and Merle,
> >
> > There is no 'goal' of enlightenment to be achieved without which you
> imagine you are incomplete
> >
> > There is no incompleteness. This understanding is an essential aspect
> of realization...
> >
> > Wham!
> >
> > Edgar
> 
> 

Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"

[mike brown]

Edgar,

Would you say that the world (inner/outer) you look at now is the same as when 
you're at the end of a sesshin? 


Mike





 From: Edgar Owen 
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Saturday, 1 September 2012, 18:44
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"
 

  
ED,

Stop practicing and just BE your Buddha Nature!

Edgar



On Sep 1, 2012, at 12:22 PM, ED wrote:

  
>
>
>Edgar,
>
>Therefore, although each of us is complete, we need to practice
>diligently at all times with no objective in mind?
>
>--ED
>
>--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen  wrote:
>>
>> Joe and Merle,
>>
>> There is no 'goal' of enlightenment to be achieved without which you
>imagine you are incomplete
>>
>> There is no incompleteness. This understanding is an essential aspect
>of realization...
>>
>> Wham!
>>
>> Edgar
>
>

 

Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"

[Edgar Owen]

ED,

It's not magic. Magic is illusion masquerading as reality. Actually magic is an 
excellent Zen lesson because it shows us that what we see with our senses is 
illusion, not reality...

It's not magic, it's seeing the reality behind the magic...

Edgar



On Sep 1, 2012, at 2:45 PM, ED wrote:

> 
> 
> Edgar,
> 
> And how is this magic trick accomplished?
> 
> --ED
> 
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen  wrote:
> >
> > ED,
> >
> > Stop practicing and just BE your Buddha Nature!
> >
> > Edgar
> 
> > > Edgar,
> > >
> > > Therefore, although each of us is complete, we need to practice
> > > diligently at all times with no objective in mind?
> > >
> > > --ED
> 
> > > > Joe and Merle,
> > > >
> > > > There is no 'goal' of enlightenment to be achieved without which
> you
> > > imagine you are incomplete
> > > >
> > > > There is no incompleteness. This understanding is an essential
> aspect
> > > of realization...
> > > >
> > > > Wham!
> > > >
> > > > Edgar
> 
> 

Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"

[Edgar Owen]

Mike,

Well, it's reality either way, but that reality is always changing as happening 
continually flows through the present moment. But however it changes it is 
still reality

Edgar



On Sep 1, 2012, at 6:09 PM, mike brown wrote:

> 
> Edgar,
> 
> Would you say that the world (inner/outer) you look at now is the same as 
> when you're at the end of a sesshin? 
> 
> Mike
> 
> 
> From: Edgar Owen 
> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
> Sent: Saturday, 1 September 2012, 18:44
> Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"
> 
>  
> ED,
> 
> Stop practicing and just BE your Buddha Nature!
> 
> Edgar
> 
> 
> On Sep 1, 2012, at 12:22 PM, ED wrote:
> 
>>  
>> 
>> 
>> Edgar,
>> 
>> Therefore, although each of us is complete, we need to practice
>> diligently at all times with no objective in mind?
>> 
>> --ED
>> 
>> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen  wrote:
>> >
>> > Joe and Merle,
>> >
>> > There is no 'goal' of enlightenment to be achieved without which you
>> imagine you are incomplete
>> >
>> > There is no incompleteness. This understanding is an essential aspect
>> of realization...
>> >
>> > Wham!
>> >
>> > Edgar
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 

Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"

[mike brown]

Edgar,

Wouldn't you say tho, that reality is less obscured during, or just after, a 
long retreat of meditation?

Mike




 From: Edgar Owen 
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 1:13
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"
 

  
Mike,

Well, it's reality either way, but that reality is always changing as happening 
continually flows through the present moment. But however it changes it is 
still reality

Edgar




On Sep 1, 2012, at 6:09 PM, mike brown wrote:

  
>
>
>Edgar,
>
>
>Would you say that the world (inner/outer) you look at now is the same as when 
>you're at the end of a sesshin? 
>
>
>
>Mike
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From: Edgar Owen 
>To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
>Sent: Saturday, 1 September 2012, 18:44
>Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"
> 
>
>  
>ED,
>
>
>Stop practicing and just BE your Buddha Nature!
>
>
>Edgar
>
>
>
>
>On Sep 1, 2012, at 12:22 PM, ED wrote:
>
>  
>>
>>
>>Edgar,
>>
>>Therefore, although each of us is complete, we need to practice
>>diligently at all times with no objective in mind?
>>
>>--ED
>>
>>--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen  wrote:
>>>
>>> Joe and Merle,
>>>
>>> There is no 'goal' of enlightenment to be achieved without which you
>>imagine you are incomplete
>>>
>>> There is no incompleteness. This understanding is an essential aspect
>>of realization...
>>>
>>> Wham!
>>>
>>> Edgar
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>

 

Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"

[mike brown]

Bill!,

A great instruction, and is certainly direct, but Joshu's instructions were 
given to a monk who had probably been practicing meditation for a long time and 
was already 'ripe' for awakening to happen. Imagine how useful that instruction 
would be to a neophyte coming off the street asking about the search for truth 
or something similar. Joshu's instruction is just that - an instruction. That's 
why i believe Buddha's skilful means (upaya) is so useful as a teaching method. 
On the one side we can have the direct pointing to the Dharma (Zen) and on the 
other we can have Therevada Buddhism with it's more step by step instructions, 
such as following the Noble eightfold Path. 

The Buddha was very wise to understand that there are many different kinds of 
people/cultures/personalities etc. out there and no one method will work for 
all. I think it should be clear now that "wash you bowls" just isn't going to 
work for someone like ED. If you agree, what else could you say that might help 
him?

Mike





 From: Bill! 
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 9:48
Subject: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"
 

  
ED,

Mind if Joshu and I jump in?

"WASH YOUR BOWLS!"  That's how...Bill! (and Joshu)

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "ED"  wrote:
>
> 
> 
> Edgar,
> 
> And how is this magic trick accomplished?
> 
> --ED
> 
> 
> 
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen  wrote:
> >
> > ED,
> >
> > Stop practicing and just BE your Buddha Nature!
> >
> > Edgar
> 
> 
> 
> > > Edgar,
> > >
> > > Therefore, although each of us is complete, we need to practice
> > > diligently at all times with no objective in mind?
> > >
> > > --ED
> 
> 
> 
> > > > Joe and Merle,
> > > >
> > > > There is no 'goal' of enlightenment to be achieved without which
> you
> > > imagine you are incomplete
> > > >
> > > > There is no incompleteness. This understanding is an essential
> aspect
> > > of realization...
> > > >
> > > > Wham!
> > > >
> > > > Edgar
>


 

Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"

[mike brown]

Bill!,


Isn't it the Zen BuddhistForum, at least by implication? Isn't it fair to talk 
about comparisons?

>ED, Just sit.  Don't think.  Just sit.

But if you do find yourself thinking, just come back gently to the breath. When 
you find your mind has become calm become mindful of how the breath (or any 
bodily sensations) arises and passes. How it is that there is no 'you' doing 
the breathing - rather the universe is breathing 'you'. Note how even pleasant 
sensations eventually pass and more unpleasant, or neutral, sensations take 
their place. With such mindfulness you may find you gain some insight into the 
3 Characteristics of existence: impermanence, non-self, and the 
unsatisfactoriness of phenomena. With diligence and patience, you may become 
liberated from suffering. 


Not exactly pithy, I admit. And Zen is certainly direct in pointing to our True 
Nature. But "wash your bowls", "just sit" and "Just This!" is also not 'it' 
either. So if we're going to have instructions/guides, then there is definitely 
a place for more descriptive ones (even tho the endgame will always be that 
they are ultimately dropped). The method is NOT the meditation.



Mike




 From: Bill! 
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 11:33
Subject: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"
 

  
Mike,  Point taken, but this is the Zen Forum, not the Theravada Forum or the 
Here-Have-Some-More-Rice-Gruel Forum.

ED, Just sit.  Don't think.  Just sit.

...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown  wrote:
>
> Bill!,
> 
> A great instruction, and is certainly direct, but Joshu's instructions were 
> given to a monk who had probably been practicing meditation for a long time 
> and was already 'ripe' for awakening to happen. Imagine how useful that 
> instruction would be to a neophyte coming off the street asking about the 
> search for truth or something similar. Joshu's instruction is just that - an 
> instruction. That's why i believe Buddha's skilful means (upaya) is so useful 
> as a teaching method. On the one side we can have the direct pointing to the 
> Dharma (Zen) and on the other we can have Therevada Buddhism with it's more 
> step by step instructions, such as following the Noble eightfold Path. 
> 
> The Buddha was very wise to understand that there are many different kinds of 
> people/cultures/personalities etc. out there and no one method will work for 
> all. I think it should be clear now that "wash you bowls" just isn't going to 
> work for someone like ED. If you agree, what else could you say that might 
> help him?
> 
> Mike
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  From: Bill! 
> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
> Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 9:48
> Subject: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"
> 
> 
>   
> ED,
> 
> Mind if Joshu and I jump in?
> 
> "WASH YOUR BOWLS!"  That's how...Bill! (and Joshu)
> 
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "ED"  wrote:
> >
> > 
> > 
> > Edgar,
> > 
> > And how is this magic trick accomplished?
> > 
> > --ED
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen  wrote:
> > >
> > > ED,
> > >
> > > Stop practicing and just BE your Buddha Nature!
> > >
> > > Edgar
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > > > Edgar,
> > > >
> > > > Therefore, although each of us is complete, we need to practice
> > > > diligently at all times with no objective in mind?
> > > >
> > > > --ED
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > > > > Joe and Merle,
> > > > >
> > > > > There is no 'goal' of enlightenment to be achieved without which
> > you
> > > > imagine you are incomplete
> > > > >
> > > > > There is no incompleteness. This understanding is an essential
> > aspect
> > > > of realization...
> > > > >
> > > > > Wham!
> > > > >
> > > > > Edgar
> >
>


 

Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"

[mike brown]

Bill!,

Sure. Wouldn't survive long without eating. I see Buddha's teachings as the 
chef and you and Edgar as the waiters tho.

Bon appetite!

Mike




 From: Bill! 
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 12:16
Subject: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"
 

  
Mike and ED,

Or how about...Just continue to exchange posts with Edgar.  He's got what seems 
to be an unlimited supply of rice gruel.  He'll keep your bowl filled to the 
brim!

...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "Bill!"  wrote:
>
> Mike,  Point taken, but this is the Zen Forum, not the Theravada Forum or the 
> Here-Have-Some-More-Rice-Gruel Forum.
> 
> ED, Just sit.  Don't think.  Just sit.
> 
> ...Bill!
> 
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown  wrote:
> >
> > Bill!,
> > 
> > A great instruction, and is certainly direct, but Joshu's instructions were 
> > given to a monk who had probably been practicing meditation for a long time 
> > and was already 'ripe' for awakening to happen. Imagine how useful that 
> > instruction would be to a neophyte coming off the street asking about the 
> > search for truth or something similar. Joshu's instruction is just that - 
> > an instruction. That's why i believe Buddha's skilful means (upaya) is so 
> > useful as a teaching method. On the one side we can have the direct 
> > pointing to the Dharma (Zen) and on the other we can have Therevada 
> > Buddhism with it's more step by step instructions, such as following the 
> > Noble eightfold Path. 
> > 
> > The Buddha was very wise to understand that there are many different kinds 
> > of people/cultures/personalities etc. out there and no one method will work 
> > for all. I think it should be clear now that "wash you bowls" just isn't 
> > going to work for someone like ED. If you agree, what else could you say 
> > that might help him?
> > 
> > Mike
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >  From: Bill! 
> > To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
> > Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 9:48
> > Subject: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"
> > 
> > 
> >   
> > ED,
> > 
> > Mind if Joshu and I jump in?
> > 
> > "WASH YOUR BOWLS!"  That's how...Bill! (and Joshu)
> > 
> > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "ED"  wrote:
> > >
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Edgar,
> > > 
> > > And how is this magic trick accomplished?
> > > 
> > > --ED
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen  wrote:
> > > >
> > > > ED,
> > > >
> > > > Stop practicing and just BE your Buddha Nature!
> > > >
> > > > Edgar
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > > > Edgar,
> > > > >
> > > > > Therefore, although each of us is complete, we need to practice
> > > > > diligently at all times with no objective in mind?
> > > > >
> > > > > --ED
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > > > > Joe and Merle,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > There is no 'goal' of enlightenment to be achieved without which
> > > you
> > > > > imagine you are incomplete
> > > > > >
> > > > > > There is no incompleteness. This understanding is an essential
> > > aspect
> > > > > of realization...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Wham!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Edgar
> > >
> >
>


 

Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"

[Edgar Owen]

Bill!,

Proving Bill! still uses his considerable intelligence to negotiate the 
rational world of forms contrary to what he claims and would have us believe 

:-)

Edgar



On Sep 2, 2012, at 4:46 AM, Bill! wrote:

> Bill,
> 
> I've had a lot of practice trying to follow Edgar's posts. I'm sure you'll 
> get the hang of it sooner or later.
> 
> ...Bill!
> 
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, William Rintala  wrote:
> >
> > Thank you for that Edgar.  I can follow your emails better if you give 
> > them to 
> > me a teaspoon at a time, unlike Bill! who seems to follow what you say with 
> > ease. 
> > 
> > Â Bill not Bill! 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Find what makes your heart sing…and do it! 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > ________________
> > From: Edgar Owen 
> > To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Sat, September 1, 2012 6:36:59 AM
> > Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"
> > 
> > Â  
> > Joe and Merle, 
> > 
> > There is no 'goal' of enlightenment to be achieved without which you 
> > imagine you 
> > are incomplete
> > 
> > There is no incompleteness. This understanding is an essential aspect of 
> > realization...
> > 
> > Wham!
> > 
> > Edgar
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > On Aug 30, 2012, at 11:51 PM, Joe wrote:
> > 
> > Â  
> > >Hiya, Merle,
> > >
> > >Nonetheless, practice formally if you are able.
> > >
> > >If you are not able, then find some way to do it. ;-)
> > >
> > >It's as important as that. Life is a little bit short, nowadays.
> > >
> > >If you report-back that it is all B.S., then we'll understand that it is 
> > >so, for 
> > >you... once you have given it your ALL, with a good teacher, and sangha.
> > >
> > >But I think you'll have a more positive experience, and report.
> > >
> > >In fact, I worry that you may develop attachments, especially in the 
> > >realm, or 
> > >area, of the Optical-sense. But when I see the paintings that afterwards 
> > >result, 
> > >coming from your studio, THAT will assuage my concerns, probably, and bath 
> > >me in 
> > >balm, I am sure. And this is what I look forward to.
> > >
> > >Yet, it's not selfishness, on my part.
> > >
> > >And, I am not attached to the possibility. But I have hopes that EVERYONE 
> > >who 
> > >wishes to practice under the best conditions may have their wish, and will 
> > >awaken. Not just because I have done it, and have had the wonder and 
> > >miracle of 
> > >this chance a number of times, as many of us have, in company with so many 
> > >others throughout History, and among our intimate acquaintances: but, 
> > >because so 
> > >many others have *not*.
> > >
> > >I know what I'm wishing you, and others, I mean.
> > >
> > >Otherwise... may the veiled-life suffice! One can't disparage where we 
> > >are. One 
> > >can only either realize, or not realize. Realize means realizing where we 
> > >are 
> > >already, but being the most clear about it. That's not a movement to 
> > >somewhere 
> > >else, but it is a very, very big step, as momentous as the late Neil 
> > >Armstrong's. Will you trust me, about this, in this?
> > >
> > >I was 17 when he and Buzz landed, and walked, and Mike Collins orbited, 
> > >station-keeping for them. Life was different after that. I could write 
> > >volumes 
> > >about how.
> > >
> > >Maybe I'm a relic. Maybe, someday, to be appreciated. ;-)
> > >
> > >--Joe
> > >
> > >> Merle Lester  wrote:
> > >>
> > >> ..am i on track.?
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> >
> 
> 

Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"

[Edgar Owen]

Mike,

There are certainly times it is, but that can happen at any time 
Realization is not just something that occurs inside monastery walls... It has 
nothing to do with that... It's just opening to reality and reality is 
everywhere...

Edgar



On Sep 2, 2012, at 5:57 AM, mike brown wrote:

> 
> Edgar,
> 
> Wouldn't you say tho, that reality is less obscured during, or just after, a 
> long retreat of meditation?
> 
> Mike
> 
> From: Edgar Owen 
> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
> Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 1:13
> Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"
> 
>  
> Mike,
> 
> Well, it's reality either way, but that reality is always changing as 
> happening continually flows through the present moment. But however it 
> changes it is still reality
> 
> Edgar
> 
> 
> 
> On Sep 1, 2012, at 6:09 PM, mike brown wrote:
> 
>>  
>> 
>> Edgar,
>> 
>> Would you say that the world (inner/outer) you look at now is the same as 
>> when you're at the end of a sesshin? 
>> 
>> Mike
>> 
>> 
>> From: Edgar Owen 
>> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
>> Sent: Saturday, 1 September 2012, 18:44
>> Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"
>> 
>>  
>> ED,
>> 
>> Stop practicing and just BE your Buddha Nature!
>> 
>> Edgar
>> 
>> 
>> On Sep 1, 2012, at 12:22 PM, ED wrote:
>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Edgar,
>>> 
>>> Therefore, although each of us is complete, we need to practice
>>> diligently at all times with no objective in mind?
>>> 
>>> --ED
>>> 
>>> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen  wrote:
>>> >
>>> > Joe and Merle,
>>> >
>>> > There is no 'goal' of enlightenment to be achieved without which you
>>> imagine you are incomplete
>>> >
>>> > There is no incompleteness. This understanding is an essential aspect
>>> of realization...
>>> >
>>> > Wham!
>>> >
>>> > Edgar
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 

Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"

[Edgar Owen]

Mike,

Yes, the problem with these pithy 'in crowd' Zen sayings is that bowls can be 
washed WITHOUT realization just as they can be WITH realization...

Edgar



On Sep 2, 2012, at 6:19 AM, mike brown wrote:

> 
> Bill!,
> 
> A great instruction, and is certainly direct, but Joshu's instructions were 
> given to a monk who had probably been practicing meditation for a long time 
> and was already 'ripe' for awakening to happen. Imagine how useful that 
> instruction would be to a neophyte coming off the street asking about the 
> search for truth or something similar. Joshu's instruction is just that - an 
> instruction. That's why i believe Buddha's skilful means (upaya) is so useful 
> as a teaching method. On the one side we can have the direct pointing to the 
> Dharma (Zen) and on the other we can have Therevada Buddhism with it's more 
> step by step instructions, such as following the Noble eightfold Path. 
> 
> The Buddha was very wise to understand that there are many different kinds of 
> people/cultures/personalities etc. out there and no one method will work for 
> all. I think it should be clear now that "wash you bowls" just isn't going to 
> work for someone like ED. If you agree, what else could you say that might 
> help him?
> 
> Mike
> 
> 
> From: Bill! 
> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
> Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 9:48
> Subject: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"
> 
>  
> ED,
> 
> Mind if Joshu and I jump in?
> 
> "WASH YOUR BOWLS!" That's how...Bill! (and Joshu)
> 
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "ED"  wrote:
> >
> > 
> > 
> > Edgar,
> > 
> > And how is this magic trick accomplished?
> > 
> > --ED
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen  wrote:
> > >
> > > ED,
> > >
> > > Stop practicing and just BE your Buddha Nature!
> > >
> > > Edgar
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > > > Edgar,
> > > >
> > > > Therefore, although each of us is complete, we need to practice
> > > > diligently at all times with no objective in mind?
> > > >
> > > > --ED
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > > > > Joe and Merle,
> > > > >
> > > > > There is no 'goal' of enlightenment to be achieved without which
> > you
> > > > imagine you are incomplete
> > > > >
> > > > > There is no incompleteness. This understanding is an essential
> > aspect
> > > > of realization...
> > > > >
> > > > > Wham!
> > > > >
> > > > > Edgar
> >
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 

Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"

[mike brown]

Bill!,

If it was the 'zen Forum', then what would there be to discuss here? ; )

As for the 3 Characteristics, you're quite correct about it ultimately being 
rice-gruel. But until we can survive without food then it serves a nutritional 
purpose. 

Mike




 From: Bill! 
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 12:26
Subject: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"
 

  
Mike,

It is the Yahoo! Zen Forum, but the description describes it as Zen Buddhism.  
I tried to get that changed but was voted down.

Nice concise zazen instructions.  I noticed however you threw a little rice 
gruel in the bowl with the '3 Characteristics of Existence'.  I thought that 
was unnecessary, but that's just me.  No harm, no foul I guess but I hope that 
doesn't dry out and stick to the sides of the bowl because it will also need to 
be cleaned out some day.

...Bill!


--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown  wrote:
>
> Bill!,
> 
> 
> Isn't it the Zen BuddhistForum, at least by implication? Isn't it fair to 
> talk about comparisons?
> 
> >ED, Just sit.  Don't think.  Just sit.
> 
> But if you do find yourself thinking, just come back gently to the breath. 
> When you find your mind has become calm become mindful of how the breath (or 
> any bodily sensations) arises and passes. How it is that there is no 'you' 
> doing the breathing - rather the universe is breathing 'you'. Note how even 
> pleasant sensations eventually pass and more unpleasant, or neutral, 
> sensations take their place. With such mindfulness you may find you gain some 
> insight into the 3 Characteristics of existence: impermanence, non-self, and 
> the unsatisfactoriness of phenomena. With diligence and patience, you may 
> become liberated from suffering. 
> 
> 
> Not exactly pithy, I admit. And Zen is certainly direct in pointing to our 
> True Nature. But "wash your bowls", "just sit" and "Just This!" is also not 
> 'it' either. So if we're going to have instructions/guides, then there is 
> definitely a place for more descriptive ones (even tho the endgame will 
> always be that they are ultimately dropped). The method is NOT the meditation.
> 
> 
> 
> Mike
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  From: Bill! 
> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
> Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 11:33
> Subject: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"
> 
> 
>   
> Mike,  Point taken, but this is the Zen Forum, not the Theravada Forum or the 
> Here-Have-Some-More-Rice-Gruel Forum.
> 
> ED, Just sit.  Don't think.  Just sit.
> 
> ...Bill!
> 
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown  wrote:
> >
> > Bill!,
> > 
> > A great instruction, and is certainly direct, but Joshu's instructions were 
> > given to a monk who had probably been practicing meditation for a long time 
> > and was already 'ripe' for awakening to happen. Imagine how useful that 
> > instruction would be to a neophyte coming off the street asking about the 
> > search for truth or something similar. Joshu's instruction is just that - 
> > an instruction. That's why i believe Buddha's skilful means (upaya) is so 
> > useful as a teaching method. On the one side we can have the direct 
> > pointing to the Dharma (Zen) and on the other we can have Therevada 
> > Buddhism with it's more step by step instructions, such as following the 
> > Noble eightfold Path. 
> > 
> > The Buddha was very wise to understand that there are many different kinds 
> > of people/cultures/personalities etc. out there and no one method will work 
> > for all. I think it should be clear now that "wash you bowls" just isn't 
> > going to work for someone like ED. If you agree, what else could you say 
> > that might help him?
> > 
> > Mike
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >  From: Bill! 
> > To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
> > Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 9:48
> > Subject: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"
> > 
> > 
> >   
> > ED,
> > 
> > Mind if Joshu and I jump in?
> > 
> > "WASH YOUR BOWLS!"  That's how...Bill! (and Joshu)
> > 
> > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "ED"  wrote:
> > >
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Edgar,
> > > 
> > > And how is this magic trick accomplished?
> > > 
> > > --ED
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> &

Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"

[mike brown]

Bill!,

lol at Edgar bringing food that wasn't even ordered! I also like your 
description as you being the (zen) dish-washer. I'm quite content for now just 
eating the meal Edgar brings me and the plates you wash after me. Thanks!

Mike




 From: Bill! 
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 12:29
Subject: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"
 

  
Mike,

I see it more like Edgar is the waiter bringing food (even some you didn't 
order) and keeping your plate full.  I'm more like the dishwasher trying my 
best to scrape all the excess food off the plates.

...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown  wrote:
>
> Bill!,
> 
> Sure. Wouldn't survive long without eating. I see Buddha's teachings as the 
> chef and you and Edgar as the waiters tho.
> 
> Bon appetite!
> 
> Mike
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  From: Bill! 
> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
> Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 12:16
> Subject: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"
> 
> 
>   
> Mike and ED,
> 
> Or how about...Just continue to exchange posts with Edgar.  He's got what 
> seems to be an unlimited supply of rice gruel.  He'll keep your bowl filled 
> to the brim!
> 
> ...Bill!
> 
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "Bill!"  wrote:
> >
> > Mike,  Point taken, but this is the Zen Forum, not the Theravada Forum or 
> > the Here-Have-Some-More-Rice-Gruel Forum.
> > 
> > ED, Just sit.  Don't think.  Just sit.
> > 
> > ...Bill!
> > 
> > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown  wrote:
> > >
> > > Bill!,
> > > 
> > > A great instruction, and is certainly direct, but Joshu's instructions 
> > > were given to a monk who had probably been practicing meditation for a 
> > > long time and was already 'ripe' for awakening to happen. Imagine how 
> > > useful that instruction would be to a neophyte coming off the street 
> > > asking about the search for truth or something similar. Joshu's 
> > > instruction is just that - an instruction. That's why i believe Buddha's 
> > > skilful means (upaya) is so useful as a teaching method. On the one side 
> > > we can have the direct pointing to the Dharma (Zen) and on the other we 
> > > can have Therevada Buddhism with it's more step by step instructions, 
> > > such as following the Noble eightfold Path. 
> > > 
> > > The Buddha was very wise to understand that there are many different 
> > > kinds of people/cultures/personalities etc. out there and no one method 
> > > will work for all. I think it should be clear now that "wash you bowls" 
> > > just isn't going to work for someone like ED. If you agree, what else 
> > > could you say that might help him?
> > > 
> > > Mike
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > >  From: Bill! 
> > > To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
> > > Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 9:48
> > > Subject: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"
> > > 
> > > 
> > >   
> > > ED,
> > > 
> > > Mind if Joshu and I jump in?
> > > 
> > > "WASH YOUR BOWLS!"  That's how...Bill! (and Joshu)
> > > 
> > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "ED"  wrote:
> > > >
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > Edgar,
> > > > 
> > > > And how is this magic trick accomplished?
> > > > 
> > > > --ED
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen  wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > ED,
> > > > >
> > > > > Stop practicing and just BE your Buddha Nature!
> > > > >
> > > > > Edgar
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > > > Edgar,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Therefore, although each of us is complete, we need to practice
> > > > > > diligently at all times with no objective in mind?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --ED
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > > > > Joe and Merle,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > There is no 'goal' of enlightenment to be achieved without which
> > > > you
> > > > > > imagine you are incomplete
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > There is no incompleteness. This understanding is an essential
> > > > aspect
> > > > > > of realization...
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Wham!
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Edgar
> > > >
> > >
> >
>


 

Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"

[Edgar Owen]

Bill!

Zen is not a matter of not thinking...

It's a matter of thinking and doing everything else with realization.

Don't just sit. Do everything in daily life with realization...

That's Zen..

Zen is not a matter of 'sitting'.

Get up off your ass and do some real Zen!

Edgar



On Sep 2, 2012, at 6:33 AM, Bill! wrote:

> Mike, Point taken, but this is the Zen Forum, not the Theravada Forum or the 
> Here-Have-Some-More-Rice-Gruel Forum.
> 
> ED, Just sit. Don't think. Just sit.
> 
> ...Bill!
> 
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown  wrote:
> >
> > Bill!,
> > 
> > A great instruction, and is certainly direct, but Joshu's instructions were 
> > given to a monk who had probably been practicing meditation for a long time 
> > and was already 'ripe' for awakening to happen. Imagine how useful that 
> > instruction would be to a neophyte coming off the street asking about the 
> > search for truth or something similar. Joshu's instruction is just that - 
> > an instruction. That's why i believe Buddha's skilful means (upaya) is so 
> > useful as a teaching method. On the one side we can have the direct 
> > pointing to the Dharma (Zen) and on the other we can have Therevada 
> > Buddhism with it's more step by step instructions, such as following the 
> > Noble eightfold Path. 
> > 
> > The Buddha was very wise to understand that there are many different kinds 
> > of people/cultures/personalities etc. out there and no one method will work 
> > for all. I think it should be clear now that "wash you bowls" just isn't 
> > going to work for someone like ED. If you agree, what else could you say 
> > that might help him?
> > 
> > Mike
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > From: Bill! 
> > To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
> > Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 9:48
> > Subject: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"
> > 
> > 
> > Â  
> > ED,
> > 
> > Mind if Joshu and I jump in?
> > 
> > "WASH YOUR BOWLS!" That's how...Bill! (and Joshu)
> > 
> > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "ED"  wrote:
> > >
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Edgar,
> > > 
> > > And how is this magic trick accomplished?
> > > 
> > > --ED
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen  wrote:
> > > >
> > > > ED,
> > > >
> > > > Stop practicing and just BE your Buddha Nature!
> > > >
> > > > Edgar
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > > > Edgar,
> > > > >
> > > > > Therefore, although each of us is complete, we need to practice
> > > > > diligently at all times with no objective in mind?
> > > > >
> > > > > --ED
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > > > > Joe and Merle,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > There is no 'goal' of enlightenment to be achieved without which
> > > you
> > > > > imagine you are incomplete
> > > > > >
> > > > > > There is no incompleteness. This understanding is an essential
> > > aspect
> > > > > of realization...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Wham!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Edgar
> > >
> >
> 
> 

Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"

[Edgar Owen]

Mike, and Bill!

The problem with "wash your bowls" and other pithy Zen aphorisms is that it's 
equally possible to wash bowls without realization as it is with realization..

Edgar



On Sep 2, 2012, at 6:19 AM, mike brown wrote:

> 
> Bill!,
> 
> A great instruction, and is certainly direct, but Joshu's instructions were 
> given to a monk who had probably been practicing meditation for a long time 
> and was already 'ripe' for awakening to happen. Imagine how useful that 
> instruction would be to a neophyte coming off the street asking about the 
> search for truth or something similar. Joshu's instruction is just that - an 
> instruction. That's why i believe Buddha's skilful means (upaya) is so useful 
> as a teaching method. On the one side we can have the direct pointing to the 
> Dharma (Zen) and on the other we can have Therevada Buddhism with it's more 
> step by step instructions, such as following the Noble eightfold Path. 
> 
> The Buddha was very wise to understand that there are many different kinds of 
> people/cultures/personalities etc. out there and no one method will work for 
> all. I think it should be clear now that "wash you bowls" just isn't going to 
> work for someone like ED. If you agree, what else could you say that might 
> help him?
> 
> Mike
> 
> 
> From: Bill! 
> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
> Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 9:48
> Subject: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"
> 
>  
> ED,
> 
> Mind if Joshu and I jump in?
> 
> "WASH YOUR BOWLS!" That's how...Bill! (and Joshu)
> 
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "ED"  wrote:
> >
> > 
> > 
> > Edgar,
> > 
> > And how is this magic trick accomplished?
> > 
> > --ED
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen  wrote:
> > >
> > > ED,
> > >
> > > Stop practicing and just BE your Buddha Nature!
> > >
> > > Edgar
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > > > Edgar,
> > > >
> > > > Therefore, although each of us is complete, we need to practice
> > > > diligently at all times with no objective in mind?
> > > >
> > > > --ED
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > > > > Joe and Merle,
> > > > >
> > > > > There is no 'goal' of enlightenment to be achieved without which
> > you
> > > > imagine you are incomplete
> > > > >
> > > > > There is no incompleteness. This understanding is an essential
> > aspect
> > > > of realization...
> > > > >
> > > > > Wham!
> > > > >
> > > > > Edgar
> >
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 

Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"

[mike brown]

Edgar,

Of course Realisation is not something that happens only inside monastry walls, 
but it also doesn't come from understanding words like "ontological" and 
"cognitive simulation model" either. 

Mike





 From: Edgar Owen 
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 12:31
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"
 

  
Mike,

There are certainly times it is, but that can happen at any time 
Realization is not just something that occurs inside monastery walls... It has 
nothing to do with that... It's just opening to reality and reality is 
everywhere...

Edgar




On Sep 2, 2012, at 5:57 AM, mike brown wrote:

  
>
>
>Edgar,
>
>
>Wouldn't you say tho, that reality is less obscured during, or just after, a 
>long retreat of meditation?
>
>
>Mike
>
>
>
>
> From: Edgar Owen 
>To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
>Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 1:13
>Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"
> 
>
>  
>Mike,
>
>
>Well, it's reality either way, but that reality is always changing as 
>happening continually flows through the present moment. But however it changes 
>it is still reality
>
>
>Edgar
>
>
>
>
>
>
>On Sep 1, 2012, at 6:09 PM, mike brown wrote:
>
>  
>>
>>
>>Edgar,
>>
>>
>>Would you say that the world (inner/outer) you look at now is the same as 
>>when you're at the end of a sesshin? 
>>
>>
>>
>>Mike
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> From: Edgar Owen 
>>To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
>>Sent: Saturday, 1 September 2012, 18:44
>>Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"
>> 
>>
>>  
>>ED,
>>
>>
>>Stop practicing and just BE your Buddha Nature!
>>
>>
>>Edgar
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>On Sep 1, 2012, at 12:22 PM, ED wrote:
>>
>>  
>>>
>>>
>>>Edgar,
>>>
>>>Therefore, although each of us is complete, we need to practice
>>>diligently at all times with no objective in mind?
>>>
>>>--ED
>>>
>>>--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen  wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Joe and Merle,
>>>>
>>>> There is no 'goal' of enlightenment to be achieved without which you
>>>imagine you are incomplete
>>>>
>>>> There is no incompleteness. This understanding is an essential aspect
>>>of realization...
>>>>
>>>> Wham!
>>>>
>>>> Edgar
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>

 

Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"

[mike brown]

Edgar,

Exactly.

Mike




 From: Edgar Owen 
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 12:35
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"
 

  
Mike,

Yes, the problem with these pithy 'in crowd' Zen sayings is that bowls can be 
washed WITHOUT realization just as they can be WITH realization...

Edgar




On Sep 2, 2012, at 6:19 AM, mike brown wrote:

  
>
>
>Bill!,
>
>A great instruction, and is certainly direct, but Joshu's instructions were 
>given to a monk who had probably been practicing meditation for a long time 
>and was already 'ripe' for awakening to happen. Imagine how useful that 
>instruction would be to a neophyte coming off the street asking about the 
>search for truth or something similar. Joshu's instruction is just that - an 
>instruction. That's why i believe Buddha's skilful means (upaya) is so useful 
>as a teaching method. On the one side we can have the direct pointing to the 
>Dharma (Zen) and on the other we can have Therevada Buddhism with it's more 
>step by step instructions, such as following the Noble eightfold Path. 
>
>The Buddha was very wise to understand that there are many different kinds of 
>people/cultures/personalities etc. out there and no one method will work
 for all. I think it should be clear now that "wash you bowls" just isn't going 
to work for someone like ED. If you agree, what else could you say that might 
help him?
>
>Mike
>
>
>
>
>
>
>____________
> From: Bill! 
>To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
>Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 9:48
>Subject: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"
> 
>
>  
>ED,
>
>Mind if Joshu and I jump in?
>
>"WASH YOUR BOWLS!"  That's how...Bill! (and Joshu)
>
>--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "ED"  wrote:
>>
>> 
>> 
>> Edgar,
>> 
>> And how is this magic trick accomplished?
>> 
>> --ED
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen  wrote:
>> >
>> > ED,
>> >
>> > Stop practicing and just BE your Buddha Nature!
>> >
>> > Edgar
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> > > Edgar,
>> > >
>> > > Therefore, although each of us is complete, we need to practice
>> > > diligently at all times with no objective in mind?
>> > >
>> > > --ED
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> > > > Joe and Merle,
>> > > >
>> > > > There is no 'goal' of enlightenment to be achieved without which
>> you
>> > > imagine you are incomplete
>> > > >
>> > > > There is no incompleteness. This understanding is an essential
>> aspect
>> > > of realization...
>> > > >
>> > > > Wham!
>> > > >
>> > > > Edgar
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>

 

Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"

[Edgar Owen]

Bill!, Mike and ED,

Yes, I'll continually fill your bowls with the gruel of realization while Bill! 
continually washes it right out of your bowls! again
:-)

EDgar



On Sep 2, 2012, at 7:16 AM, Bill! wrote:

> Mike and ED,
> 
> Or how about...Just continue to exchange posts with Edgar. He's got what 
> seems to be an unlimited supply of rice gruel. He'll keep your bowl filled to 
> the brim!
> 
> ...Bill!
> 
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "Bill!"  wrote:
> >
> > Mike, Point taken, but this is the Zen Forum, not the Theravada Forum or 
> > the Here-Have-Some-More-Rice-Gruel Forum.
> > 
> > ED, Just sit. Don't think. Just sit.
> > 
> > ...Bill!
> > 
> > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown  wrote:
> > >
> > > Bill!,
> > > 
> > > A great instruction, and is certainly direct, but Joshu's instructions 
> > > were given to a monk who had probably been practicing meditation for a 
> > > long time and was already 'ripe' for awakening to happen. Imagine how 
> > > useful that instruction would be to a neophyte coming off the street 
> > > asking about the search for truth or something similar. Joshu's 
> > > instruction is just that - an instruction. That's why i believe Buddha's 
> > > skilful means (upaya) is so useful as a teaching method. On the one side 
> > > we can have the direct pointing to the Dharma (Zen) and on the other we 
> > > can have Therevada Buddhism with it's more step by step instructions, 
> > > such as following the Noble eightfold Path. 
> > > 
> > > The Buddha was very wise to understand that there are many different 
> > > kinds of people/cultures/personalities etc. out there and no one method 
> > > will work for all. I think it should be clear now that "wash you bowls" 
> > > just isn't going to work for someone like ED. If you agree, what else 
> > > could you say that might help him?
> > > 
> > > Mike
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > From: Bill! 
> > > To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
> > > Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 9:48
> > > Subject: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Â  
> > > ED,
> > > 
> > > Mind if Joshu and I jump in?
> > > 
> > > "WASH YOUR BOWLS!" That's how...Bill! (and Joshu)
> > > 
> > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "ED"  wrote:
> > > >
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > Edgar,
> > > > 
> > > > And how is this magic trick accomplished?
> > > > 
> > > > --ED
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen  wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > ED,
> > > > >
> > > > > Stop practicing and just BE your Buddha Nature!
> > > > >
> > > > > Edgar
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > > > Edgar,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Therefore, although each of us is complete, we need to practice
> > > > > > diligently at all times with no objective in mind?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --ED
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > > > > Joe and Merle,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > There is no 'goal' of enlightenment to be achieved without which
> > > > you
> > > > > > imagine you are incomplete
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > There is no incompleteness. This understanding is an essential
> > > > aspect
> > > > > > of realization...
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Wham!
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Edgar
> > > >
> > >
> >
> 
> 

Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"

[mike brown]

There's still a bowl?




 From: Bill! 
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 12:51
Subject: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"
 

  
A clean bowl is realization...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown  wrote:
>
> Edgar,
> 
> Exactly.
> 
> Mike
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  From: Edgar Owen 
> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
> Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 12:35
> Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"
> 
> 
>   
> Mike,
> 
> Yes, the problem with these pithy 'in crowd' Zen sayings is that bowls can be 
> washed WITHOUT realization just as they can be WITH realization...
> 
> Edgar
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Sep 2, 2012, at 6:19 AM, mike brown wrote:
> 
>   
> >
> >
> >Bill!,
> >
> >A great instruction, and is certainly direct, but Joshu's instructions were 
> >given to a monk who had probably been practicing meditation for a long time 
> >and was already 'ripe' for awakening to happen. Imagine how useful that 
> >instruction would be to a neophyte coming off the street asking about the 
> >search for truth or something similar. Joshu's instruction is just that - an 
> >instruction. That's why i believe Buddha's skilful means (upaya) is so 
> >useful as a teaching method. On the one side we can have the direct pointing 
> >to the Dharma (Zen) and on the other we can have Therevada Buddhism with 
> >it's more step by step instructions, such as following the Noble eightfold 
> >Path. 
> >
> >The Buddha was very wise to understand that there are many different kinds 
> >of people/cultures/personalities etc. out there and no one method will work
>  for all. I think it should be clear now that "wash you bowls" just isn't 
> going to work for someone like ED. If you agree, what else could you say that 
> might help him?
> >
> >Mike
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > From: Bill! 
> >To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
> >Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 9:48
> >Subject: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"
> > 
> >
> >  
> >ED,
> >
> >Mind if Joshu and I jump in?
> >
> >"WASH YOUR BOWLS!"  That's how...Bill! (and Joshu)
> >
> >--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "ED"  wrote:
> >>
> >> 
> >> 
> >> Edgar,
> >> 
> >> And how is this magic trick accomplished?
> >> 
> >> --ED
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen  wrote:
> >> >
> >> > ED,
> >> >
> >> > Stop practicing and just BE your Buddha Nature!
> >> >
> >> > Edgar
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> > > Edgar,
> >> > >
> >> > > Therefore, although each of us is complete, we need to practice
> >> > > diligently at all times with no objective in mind?
> >> > >
> >> > > --ED
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> > > > Joe and Merle,
> >> > > >
> >> > > > There is no 'goal' of enlightenment to be achieved without which
> >> you
> >> > > imagine you are incomplete
> >> > > >
> >> > > > There is no incompleteness. This understanding is an essential
> >> aspect
> >> > > of realization...
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Wham!
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Edgar
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>


 

Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"

[mike brown]

Naked Yoga Forum? If that's run by you and Edgar, then I hope it's strictly 
conducted in the written medium only. God forbid.

Mike





 From: Bill! 
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 12:53
Subject: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"
 

  
I agree with Edgar!

...and that's how we pump-up the post count so we can increase our commission 
checks and some day retire to become moderators of the Yahoo! Naked Yoga Forum.

...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen  wrote:
>
> Bill!, Mike and ED,
> 
> Yes, I'll continually fill your bowls with the gruel of realization while 
> Bill! continually washes it right out of your bowls! again
> :-)
> 
> EDgar
> 
> 
> 
> On Sep 2, 2012, at 7:16 AM, Bill! wrote:
> 
> > Mike and ED,
> > 
> > Or how about...Just continue to exchange posts with Edgar. He's got what 
> > seems to be an unlimited supply of rice gruel. He'll keep your bowl filled 
> > to the brim!
> > 
> > ...Bill!
> > 
> > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "Bill!"  wrote:
> > >
> > > Mike, Point taken, but this is the Zen Forum, not the Theravada Forum or 
> > > the Here-Have-Some-More-Rice-Gruel Forum.
> > > 
> > > ED, Just sit. Don't think. Just sit.
> > > 
> > > ...Bill!
> > > 
> > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown  wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Bill!,
> > > > 
> > > > A great instruction, and is certainly direct, but Joshu's instructions 
> > > > were given to a monk who had probably been practicing meditation for a 
> > > > long time and was already 'ripe' for awakening to happen. Imagine how 
> > > > useful that instruction would be to a neophyte coming off the street 
> > > > asking about the search for truth or something similar. Joshu's 
> > > > instruction is just that - an instruction. That's why i believe 
> > > > Buddha's skilful means (upaya) is so useful as a teaching method. On 
> > > > the one side we can have the direct pointing to the Dharma (Zen) and on 
> > > > the other we can have Therevada Buddhism with it's more step by step 
> > > > instructions, such as following the Noble eightfold Path. 
> > > > 
> > > > The Buddha was very wise to understand that there are many different 
> > > > kinds of people/cultures/personalities etc. out there and no one method 
> > > > will work for all. I think it should be clear now that "wash you bowls" 
> > > > just isn't going to work for someone like ED. If you agree, what else 
> > > > could you say that might help him?
> > > > 
> > > > Mike
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > From: Bill! 
> > > > To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
> > > > Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 9:48
> > > > Subject: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > Â 
> > > > ED,
> > > > 
> > > > Mind if Joshu and I jump in?
> > > > 
> > > > "WASH YOUR BOWLS!" That's how...Bill! (and Joshu)
> > > > 
> > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "ED"  wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > Edgar,
> > > > > 
> > > > > And how is this magic trick accomplished?
> > > > > 
> > > > > --ED
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen  wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ED,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Stop practicing and just BE your Buddha Nature!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Edgar
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > > > Edgar,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Therefore, although each of us is complete, we need to practice
> > > > > > > diligently at all times with no objective in mind?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --ED
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > > > > Joe and Merle,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > There is no 'goal' of enlightenment to be achieved without which
> > > > > you
> > > > > > > imagine you are incomplete
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > There is no incompleteness. This understanding is an essential
> > > > > aspect
> > > > > > > of realization...
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Wham!
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Edgar
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > 
> >
>


 

Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"

[Edgar Owen]

Bill!

And that my friend is precisely the problem. Logic, like everything else that 
exists IS Buddha Nature. Because there is nothing that is NOT Buddha nature...

I think we've honed into the absolute kernel and crux of the disagreement right 
here ...

See what I'm saying?

You adopt a dualistic view by denying part of what exists is part of Buddha 
Nature. 
I point out there is no such dualism because everything that exists is part of 
reality (Buddha Nature) by definition, including things such as logic and your 
daily life using logic making a living, that you deny is part of Buddha Nature. 


This is the MOST IMPORTANT post of mine to Bill! ever! I only hope this will be 
a super Kwatz moment and that Bill! won't try to avoid and ignore the koan as 
usual

Edgar




On Sep 2, 2012, at 7:32 AM, Bill! wrote:

> Edgar,
> 
> Sometimes I think you don't read my posts.
> 
> I NEVER said I don't use logic. I use it all the time. I make my living using 
> it. I don't however mistake logic for Buddha Nature.
> 
> ...Bill!
> 
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen  wrote:
> >
> > Bill!,
> > 
> > Proving Bill! still uses his considerable intelligence to negotiate the 
> > rational world of forms contrary to what he claims and would have us 
> > believe 
> > :-)
> > 
> > Edgar
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > On Sep 2, 2012, at 4:46 AM, Bill! wrote:
> > 
> > > Bill,
> > > 
> > > I've had a lot of practice trying to follow Edgar's posts. I'm sure 
> > > you'll get the hang of it sooner or later.
> > > 
> > > ...Bill!
> > > 
> > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, William Rintala  wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Thank you for that Edgar. I can follow your emails better if you give 
> > > > them to 
> > > > me a teaspoon at a time, unlike Bill! who seems to follow what you say 
> > > > with 
> > > > ease. 
> > > > 
> > > > Â Bill not Bill! 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > Find what makes your heart sing…and do it! 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > From: Edgar Owen 
> > > > To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> > > > Sent: Sat, September 1, 2012 6:36:59 AM
> > > > Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"
> > > > 
> > > > Â 
> > > > Joe and Merle, 
> > > > 
> > > > There is no 'goal' of enlightenment to be achieved without which you 
> > > > imagine you 
> > > > are incomplete
> > > > 
> > > > There is no incompleteness. This understanding is an essential aspect 
> > > > of 
> > > > realization...
> > > > 
> > > > Wham!
> > > > 
> > > > Edgar
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > On Aug 30, 2012, at 11:51 PM, Joe wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > Â 
> > > > >Hiya, Merle,
> > > > >
> > > > >Nonetheless, practice formally if you are able.
> > > > >
> > > > >If you are not able, then find some way to do it. ;-)
> > > > >
> > > > >It's as important as that. Life is a little bit short, nowadays.
> > > > >
> > > > >If you report-back that it is all B.S., then we'll understand that it 
> > > > >is so, for 
> > > > >you... once you have given it your ALL, with a good teacher, and 
> > > > >sangha.
> > > > >
> > > > >But I think you'll have a more positive experience, and report.
> > > > >
> > > > >In fact, I worry that you may develop attachments, especially in the 
> > > > >realm, or 
> > > > >area, of the Optical-sense. But when I see the paintings that 
> > > > >afterwards result, 
> > > > >coming from your studio, THAT will assuage my concerns, probably, and 
> > > > >bath me in 
> > > > >balm, I am sure. And this is what I look forward to.
> > > > >
> > > > >Yet, it's not selfishness, on my part.
> > > > >
> > > > >And, I am not attached to the possibility. But I have hopes that 
> > > > >EVERYONE who 
> > > > >wishes to practice under the 

Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"

[Edgar Owen]

Mike and Bill!,

Yes I loved that line of Bill!'s too!

Edgar


On Sep 2, 2012, at 7:39 AM, mike brown wrote:

> 
> Bill!,
> 
> lol at Edgar bringing food that wasn't even ordered! I also like your 
> description as you being the (zen) dish-washer. I'm quite content for now 
> just eating the meal Edgar brings me and the plates you wash after me. Thanks!
> 
> Mike
> 
> From: Bill! 
> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
> Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 12:29
> Subject: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"
> 
>  
> Mike,
> 
> I see it more like Edgar is the waiter bringing food (even some you didn't 
> order) and keeping your plate full. I'm more like the dishwasher trying my 
> best to scrape all the excess food off the plates.
> 
> ...Bill!
> 
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown  wrote:
> >
> > Bill!,
> > 
> > Sure. Wouldn't survive long without eating. I see Buddha's teachings as the 
> > chef and you and Edgar as the waiters tho.
> > 
> > Bon appetite!
> > 
> > Mike
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > From: Bill! 
> > To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
> > Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 12:16
> > Subject: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"
> > 
> > 
> > Â  
> > Mike and ED,
> > 
> > Or how about...Just continue to exchange posts with Edgar. He's got what 
> > seems to be an unlimited supply of rice gruel. He'll keep your bowl filled 
> > to the brim!
> > 
> > ...Bill!
> > 
> > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "Bill!"  wrote:
> > >
> > > Mike, Point taken, but this is the Zen Forum, not the Theravada Forum or 
> > > the Here-Have-Some-More-Rice-Gruel Forum.
> > > 
> > > ED, Just sit. Don't think. Just sit.
> > > 
> > > ...Bill!
> > > 
> > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown  wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Bill!,
> > > > 
> > > > A great instruction, and is certainly direct, but Joshu's instructions 
> > > > were given to a monk who had probably been practicing meditation for a 
> > > > long time and was already 'ripe' for awakening to happen. Imagine how 
> > > > useful that instruction would be to a neophyte coming off the street 
> > > > asking about the search for truth or something similar. Joshu's 
> > > > instruction is just that - an instruction. That's why i believe 
> > > > Buddha's skilful means (upaya) is so useful as a teaching method. On 
> > > > the one side we can have the direct pointing to the Dharma (Zen) and on 
> > > > the other we can have Therevada Buddhism with it's more step by step 
> > > > instructions, such as following the Noble eightfold Path. 
> > > > 
> > > > The Buddha was very wise to understand that there are many different 
> > > > kinds of people/cultures/personalities etc. out there and no one method 
> > > > will work for all. I think it should be clear now that "wash you bowls" 
> > > > just isn't going to work for someone like ED. If you agree, what else 
> > > > could you say that might help him?
> > > > 
> > > > Mike
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > From: Bill! 
> > > > To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
> > > > Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 9:48
> > > > Subject: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > >   
> > > > ED,
> > > > 
> > > > Mind if Joshu and I jump in?
> > > > 
> > > > "WASH YOUR BOWLS!" That's how...Bill! (and Joshu)
> > > > 
> > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "ED"  wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > Edgar,
> > > > > 
> > > > > And how is this magic trick accomplished?
> > > > > 
> > > > > --ED
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen  wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ED,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Stop practicing and just BE your Buddha Nature!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Edgar
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > > > Edgar,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Therefore, although each of us is complete, we need to practice
> > > > > > > diligently at all times with no objective in mind?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --ED
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > > > > Joe and Merle,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > There is no 'goal' of enlightenment to be achieved without which
> > > > > you
> > > > > > > imagine you are incomplete
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > There is no incompleteness. This understanding is an essential
> > > > > aspect
> > > > > > > of realization...
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Wham!
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Edgar
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 

Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"

[Edgar Owen]

MIke,

Those words are fingers providing directions to the landing pad to the moon.

EDgar



On Sep 2, 2012, at 7:46 AM, mike brown wrote:

> 
> Edgar,
> 
> Of course Realisation is not something that happens only inside monastry 
> walls, but it also doesn't come from understanding words like "ontological" 
> and "cognitive simulation model" either. 
> 
> Mike
> 
> 
> From: Edgar Owen 
> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
> Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 12:31
> Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"
> 
>  
> Mike,
> 
> There are certainly times it is, but that can happen at any time 
> Realization is not just something that occurs inside monastery walls... It 
> has nothing to do with that... It's just opening to reality and reality is 
> everywhere...
> 
> Edgar
> 
> 
> 
> On Sep 2, 2012, at 5:57 AM, mike brown wrote:
> 
>>  
>> 
>> Edgar,
>> 
>> Wouldn't you say tho, that reality is less obscured during, or just after, a 
>> long retreat of meditation?
>> 
>> Mike
>> 
>> From: Edgar Owen 
>> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
>> Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 1:13
>> Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"
>> 
>>  
>> Mike,
>> 
>> Well, it's reality either way, but that reality is always changing as 
>> happening continually flows through the present moment. But however it 
>> changes it is still reality
>> 
>> Edgar
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Sep 1, 2012, at 6:09 PM, mike brown wrote:
>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>> Edgar,
>>> 
>>> Would you say that the world (inner/outer) you look at now is the same as 
>>> when you're at the end of a sesshin? 
>>> 
>>> Mike
>>> 
>>> 
>>> From: Edgar Owen 
>>> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
>>> Sent: Saturday, 1 September 2012, 18:44
>>> Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"
>>> 
>>>  
>>> ED,
>>> 
>>> Stop practicing and just BE your Buddha Nature!
>>> 
>>> Edgar
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Sep 1, 2012, at 12:22 PM, ED wrote:
>>> 
>>>>  
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Edgar,
>>>> 
>>>> Therefore, although each of us is complete, we need to practice
>>>> diligently at all times with no objective in mind?
>>>> 
>>>> --ED
>>>> 
>>>> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen  wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> > Joe and Merle,
>>>> >
>>>> > There is no 'goal' of enlightenment to be achieved without which you
>>>> imagine you are incomplete
>>>> >
>>>> > There is no incompleteness. This understanding is an essential aspect
>>>> of realization...
>>>> >
>>>> > Wham!
>>>> >
>>>> > Edgar
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 

Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"

[Edgar Owen]

Bill!

Completely wrong! That's the view that was rejected by the master who chose Hui 
Neng over the monk who claimed Zen was keeping the mirror free of dust

Read Hui Neng's poem again.

There is NO mirror that needs dusting to keep it clean. 
There is NO bowl that needs to be washed!


Edgar



On Sep 2, 2012, at 7:51 AM, Bill! wrote:

> A clean bowl is realization...Bill!
> 
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown  wrote:
> >
> > Edgar,
> > 
> > Exactly.
> > 
> > Mike
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > From: Edgar Owen 
> > To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
> > Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 12:35
> > Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"
> > 
> > 
> > Â  
> > Mike,
> > 
> > Yes, the problem with these pithy 'in crowd' Zen sayings is that bowls can 
> > be washed WITHOUT realization just as they can be WITH realization...
> > 
> > Edgar
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > On Sep 2, 2012, at 6:19 AM, mike brown wrote:
> > 
> > Â  
> > >
> > >
> > >Bill!,
> > >
> > >A great instruction, and is certainly direct, but Joshu's instructions 
> > >were given to a monk who had probably been practicing meditation for a 
> > >long time and was already 'ripe' for awakening to happen. Imagine how 
> > >useful that instruction would be to a neophyte coming off the street 
> > >asking about the search for truth or something similar. Joshu's 
> > >instruction is just that - an instruction. That's why i believe Buddha's 
> > >skilful means (upaya) is so useful as a teaching method. On the one side 
> > >we can have the direct pointing to the Dharma (Zen) and on the other we 
> > >can have Therevada Buddhism with it's more step by step instructions, such 
> > >as following the Noble eightfold Path. 
> > >
> > >The Buddha was very wise to understand that there are many different kinds 
> > >of people/cultures/personalities etc. out there and no one method will work
> > for all. I think it should be clear now that "wash you bowls" just isn't 
> > going to work for someone like ED. If you agree, what else could you say 
> > that might help him?
> > >
> > >Mike
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > From: Bill! 
> > >To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
> > >Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 9:48
> > >Subject: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"
> > > 
> > >
> > >Â  
> > >ED,
> > >
> > >Mind if Joshu and I jump in?
> > >
> > >"WASH YOUR BOWLS!" That's how...Bill! (and Joshu)
> > >
> > >--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "ED"  wrote:
> > >>
> > >> 
> > >> 
> > >> Edgar,
> > >> 
> > >> And how is this magic trick accomplished?
> > >> 
> > >> --ED
> > >> 
> > >> 
> > >> 
> > >> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen  wrote:
> > >> >
> > >> > ED,
> > >> >
> > >> > Stop practicing and just BE your Buddha Nature!
> > >> >
> > >> > Edgar
> > >> 
> > >> 
> > >> 
> > >> > > Edgar,
> > >> > >
> > >> > > Therefore, although each of us is complete, we need to practice
> > >> > > diligently at all times with no objective in mind?
> > >> > >
> > >> > > --ED
> > >> 
> > >> 
> > >> 
> > >> > > > Joe and Merle,
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > There is no 'goal' of enlightenment to be achieved without which
> > >> you
> > >> > > imagine you are incomplete
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > There is no incompleteness. This understanding is an essential
> > >> aspect
> > >> > > of realization...
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > Wham!
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > Edgar
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> 
> 

Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"

[Edgar Owen]

Mike,

You mean you haven't seen Bill's naked zazen photos?
:-)

Edgar



On Sep 2, 2012, at 7:59 AM, mike brown wrote:

> 
> Naked Yoga Forum? If that's run by you and Edgar, then I hope it's strictly 
> conducted in the written medium only. God forbid.
> 
> Mike
> 
> 
> From: Bill! 
> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
> Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 12:53
> Subject: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"
> 
>  
> I agree with Edgar!
> 
> ...and that's how we pump-up the post count so we can increase our commission 
> checks and some day retire to become moderators of the Yahoo! Naked Yoga 
> Forum.
> 
> ...Bill!
> 
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen  wrote:
> >
> > Bill!, Mike and ED,
> > 
> > Yes, I'll continually fill your bowls with the gruel of realization while 
> > Bill! continually washes it right out of your bowls! again
> > :-)
> > 
> > EDgar
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > On Sep 2, 2012, at 7:16 AM, Bill! wrote:
> > 
> > > Mike and ED,
> > > 
> > > Or how about...Just continue to exchange posts with Edgar. He's got what 
> > > seems to be an unlimited supply of rice gruel. He'll keep your bowl 
> > > filled to the brim!
> > > 
> > > ...Bill!
> > > 
> > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "Bill!"  wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Mike, Point taken, but this is the Zen Forum, not the Theravada Forum 
> > > > or the Here-Have-Some-More-Rice-Gruel Forum.
> > > > 
> > > > ED, Just sit. Don't think. Just sit.
> > > > 
> > > > ...Bill!
> > > > 
> > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown  wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Bill!,
> > > > > 
> > > > > A great instruction, and is certainly direct, but Joshu's 
> > > > > instructions were given to a monk who had probably been practicing 
> > > > > meditation for a long time and was already 'ripe' for awakening to 
> > > > > happen. Imagine how useful that instruction would be to a neophyte 
> > > > > coming off the street asking about the search for truth or something 
> > > > > similar. Joshu's instruction is just that - an instruction. That's 
> > > > > why i believe Buddha's skilful means (upaya) is so useful as a 
> > > > > teaching method. On the one side we can have the direct pointing to 
> > > > > the Dharma (Zen) and on the other we can have Therevada Buddhism with 
> > > > > it's more step by step instructions, such as following the Noble 
> > > > > eightfold Path. 
> > > > > 
> > > > > The Buddha was very wise to understand that there are many different 
> > > > > kinds of people/cultures/personalities etc. out there and no one 
> > > > > method will work for all. I think it should be clear now that "wash 
> > > > > you bowls" just isn't going to work for someone like ED. If you 
> > > > > agree, what else could you say that might help him?
> > > > > 
> > > > > Mike
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > From: Bill! 
> > > > > To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
> > > > > Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 9:48
> > > > > Subject: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > Â 
> > > > > ED,
> > > > > 
> > > > > Mind if Joshu and I jump in?
> > > > > 
> > > > > "WASH YOUR BOWLS!" That's how...Bill! (and Joshu)
> > > > > 
> > > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "ED"  wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Edgar,
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > And how is this magic trick accomplished?
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > --ED
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen  wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ED,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Stop practicing and just BE your Buddha Nature!
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Edgar
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > Edgar,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Therefore, although each of us is complete, we need to practice
> > > > > > > > diligently at all times with no objective in mind?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > --ED
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > Joe and Merle,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > There is no 'goal' of enlightenment to be achieved without 
> > > > > > > > > which
> > > > > > you
> > > > > > > > imagine you are incomplete
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > There is no incompleteness. This understanding is an essential
> > > > > > aspect
> > > > > > > > of realization...
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Wham!
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Edgar
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > 
> > >
> >
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 

Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"

[mike brown]

Edgar,

Don't you contradict yourself here somewhat? You were previously critical of 
people from cultures where they may have a belief in dragons or rainbow 
serpents etc. Aren't these beliefs part of the Truth (Buddha Nature) as well 
then? Especially when they haven't had, or even when they have had, contact 
with contemporary science. If you believe in 'chi' energy, what's the 
difference in believing in 'spirit'?

Mike




 From: Edgar Owen 
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 13:00
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"
 

  
Bill!

And that my friend is precisely the problem. Logic, like everything else that 
exists IS Buddha Nature. Because there is nothing that is NOT Buddha nature...

I think we've honed into the absolute kernel and crux of the disagreement right 
here ...

See what I'm saying?

You adopt a dualistic view by denying part of what exists is part of Buddha 
Nature. 
I point out there is no such dualism because everything that exists is part of 
reality (Buddha Nature) by definition, including things such as logic and your 
daily life using logic making a living, that you deny is part of Buddha Nature. 


This is the MOST IMPORTANT post of mine to Bill! ever! I only hope this will be 
a super Kwatz moment and that Bill! won't try to avoid and ignore the koan as 
usual

Edgar





On Sep 2, 2012, at 7:32 AM, Bill! wrote:

  
>Edgar,
>
>Sometimes I think you don't read my posts.
>
>I NEVER said I don't use logic.  I use it all the time.  I make my living 
>using it.  I don't however mistake logic for Buddha Nature.
>
>...Bill!
>
>--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen  wrote:
>>
>> Bill!,
>> 
>> Proving Bill! still uses his considerable intelligence to negotiate the 
>> rational world of forms contrary to what he claims and would have us believe 
>> 
>> :-)
>> 
>> Edgar
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Sep 2, 2012, at 4:46 AM, Bill! wrote:
>> 
>> > Bill,
>> > 
>> > I've had a lot of practice trying to follow Edgar's posts. I'm sure you'll 
>> > get the hang of it sooner or later.
>> > 
>> > ...Bill!
>> > 
>> > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, William Rintala  wrote:
>> > >
>> > > Thank you for that Edgar.  I can follow your emails better if you give 
>> > > them to 
>> > > me a teaspoon at a time, unlike Bill! who seems to follow what you say 
>> > > with 
>> > > ease. 
>> > > 
>> > > Â Bill not Bill! 
>> > > 
>> > > 
>> > > 
>> > > 
>> > > Find what makes your heart sing…and do it! 
>> > > 
>> > > 
>> > > 
>> > > 
>> > > 
>> > > From: Edgar Owen 
>> > > To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
>> > > Sent: Sat, September 1, 2012 6:36:59 AM
>> > > Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"
>> > > 
>> > > Â 
>> > > Joe and Merle, 
>> > > 
>> > > There is no 'goal' of enlightenment to be achieved without which you 
>> > > imagine you 
>> > > are incomplete
>> > > 
>> > > There is no incompleteness. This understanding is an essential aspect of 
>> > > realization...
>> > > 
>> > > Wham!
>> > > 
>> > > Edgar
>> > > 
>> > > 
>> > > 
>> > > 
>> > > On Aug 30, 2012, at 11:51 PM, Joe wrote:
>> > > 
>> > > Â 
>> > > >Hiya, Merle,
>> > > >
>> > > >Nonetheless, practice formally if you are able.
>> > > >
>> > > >If you are not able, then find some way to do it. ;-)
>> > > >
>> > > >It's as important as that. Life is a little bit short, nowadays.
>> > > >
>> > > >If you report-back that it is all B.S., then we'll understand that it 
>> > > >is so, for 
>> > > >you... once you have given it your ALL, with a good teacher, and sangha.
>> > > >
>> > > >But I think you'll have a more positive experience, and report.
>> > > >
>> > > >In fact, I worry that you may develop attachments, especially in the 
>> > > >realm, or 
>> > > >area, of the Optical-sense. But when I see the paintings that 
>> > >

Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"

[mike brown]

"That's not a moon - that's a space station".

Mike




 From: Edgar Owen 
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 13:04
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"
 

  
MIke,

Those words are fingers providing directions to the landing pad to the moon.

EDgar




On Sep 2, 2012, at 7:46 AM, mike brown wrote:

  
>
>
>Edgar,
>
>Of course Realisation is not something that happens only inside monastry 
>walls, but it also doesn't come from understanding words like "ontological" 
>and "cognitive simulation model" either. 
>
>Mike
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From: Edgar Owen 
>To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
>Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 12:31
>Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"
> 
>
>  
>Mike,
>
>
>There are certainly times it is, but that can happen at any time 
>Realization is not just something that occurs inside monastery walls... It has 
>nothing to do with that... It's just opening to reality and reality is 
>everywhere...
>
>
>Edgar
>
>
>
>
>
>
>On Sep 2, 2012, at 5:57 AM, mike brown wrote:
>
>  
>>
>>
>>Edgar,
>>
>>
>>Wouldn't you say tho, that reality is less obscured during, or just after, a 
>>long retreat of meditation?
>>
>>
>>Mike
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> From: Edgar Owen 
>>To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
>>Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 1:13
>>Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"
>> 
>>
>>  
>>Mike,
>>
>>
>>Well, it's reality either way, but that reality is always changing as 
>>happening continually flows through the present moment. But however it 
>>changes it is still reality
>>
>>
>>Edgar
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>On Sep 1, 2012, at 6:09 PM, mike brown wrote:
>>
>>  
>>>
>>>
>>>Edgar,
>>>
>>>
>>>Would you say that the world (inner/outer) you look at now is the same as 
>>>when you're at the end of a sesshin? 
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Mike
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> From: Edgar Owen 
>>>To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
>>>Sent: Saturday, 1 September 2012, 18:44
>>>Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"
>>> 
>>>
>>>  
>>>ED,
>>>
>>>
>>>Stop practicing and just BE your Buddha Nature!
>>>
>>>
>>>Edgar
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>On Sep 1, 2012, at 12:22 PM, ED wrote:
>>>
>>>  
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Edgar,
>>>>
>>>>Therefore, although each of us is complete, we need to practice
>>>>diligently at all times with no objective in mind?
>>>>
>>>>--ED
>>>>
>>>>--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen  wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Joe and Merle,
>>>>>
>>>>> There is no 'goal' of enlightenment to be achieved without which you
>>>>imagine you are incomplete
>>>>>
>>>>> There is no incompleteness. This understanding is an essential aspect
>>>>of realization...
>>>>>
>>>>> Wham!
>>>>>
>>>>> Edgar
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>

 

Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"

[mike brown]

Edgar,

Thanks. You do know it's dinner time here in the UK, right?

Mike





 From: Edgar Owen 
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 13:09
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"
 

  
Mike,

You mean you haven't seen Bill's naked zazen photos?
:-)

Edgar




On Sep 2, 2012, at 7:59 AM, mike brown wrote:

  
>
>
>Naked Yoga Forum? If that's run by you and Edgar, then I hope it's strictly 
>conducted in the written medium only. God forbid.
>
>Mike
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From: Bill! 
>To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
>Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 12:53
>Subject: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"
> 
>
>  
>I agree with Edgar!
>
>...and that's how we pump-up the post count so we can increase our commission 
>checks and some day retire to become moderators of the Yahoo! Naked Yoga Forum.
>
>...Bill!
>
>--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen  wrote:
>>
>> Bill!, Mike and ED,
>> 
>> Yes, I'll continually fill your bowls with the gruel of realization while 
>> Bill! continually washes it right out of your bowls! again
>> :-)
>> 
>> EDgar
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Sep 2, 2012, at 7:16 AM, Bill! wrote:
>> 
>> > Mike and ED,
>> > 
>> > Or how about...Just continue to exchange posts with Edgar. He's got what 
>> > seems to be an unlimited supply of rice gruel. He'll keep your bowl filled 
>> > to the brim!
>> > 
>> > ...Bill!
>> > 
>> > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "Bill!"  wrote:
>> > >
>> > > Mike, Point taken, but this is the Zen Forum, not the Theravada Forum or 
>> > > the Here-Have-Some-More-Rice-Gruel Forum.
>> > > 
>> > > ED, Just sit. Don't think. Just sit.
>> > > 
>> > > ...Bill!
>> > > 
>> > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown  wrote:
>> > > >
>> > > > Bill!,
>> > > > 
>> > > > A great instruction, and is certainly direct, but Joshu's instructions 
>> > > > were given to a monk who had probably been practicing meditation for a 
>> > > > long time and was already 'ripe' for awakening to happen. Imagine how 
>> > > > useful that instruction would be to a neophyte coming off the street 
>> > > > asking about the search for truth or something similar. Joshu's 
>> > > > instruction is just that - an instruction. That's why i believe 
>> > > > Buddha's skilful means (upaya) is so useful as a teaching method. On 
>> > > > the one side we can have the direct pointing to the Dharma (Zen) and 
>> > > > on the other we can have Therevada Buddhism with it's more step by 
>> > > > step instructions, such as following the Noble eightfold Path. 
>> > > > 
>> > > > The Buddha was very wise to understand that there are many different 
>> > > > kinds of people/cultures/personalities etc. out there and no one 
>> > > > method will work for all. I think it should be clear now that "wash 
>> > > > you bowls" just isn't going to work for someone like ED. If you agree, 
>> > > > what else could you say that might help him?
>> > > > 
>> > > > Mike
>> > > > 
>> > > > 
>> > > > 
>> > > > 
>> > > > 
>> > > > From: Bill! 
>> > > > To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
>> > > > Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 9:48
>> > > > Subject: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"
>> > > > 
>> > > > 
>> > > > Â 
>> > > > ED,
>> > > > 
>> > > > Mind if Joshu and I jump in?
>> > > > 
>> > > > "WASH YOUR BOWLS!" That's how...Bill! (and Joshu)
>> > > > 
>> > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "ED"  wrote:
>> > > > >
>> > > > > 
>> > > > > 
>> > > > > Edgar,
>> > > > > 
>> > > > > And how is this magic trick accomplished?
>> > > > > 
>> > > > > --ED
>> > > > > 
>> > > > > 
>> > > > > 
>> > > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen  wrote:
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > ED,
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > Stop practicing and just BE your Buddha Nature!
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > Edgar
>> > > > > 
>> > > > > 
>> > > > > 
>> > > > > > > Edgar,
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > Therefore, although each of us is complete, we need to practice
>> > > > > > > diligently at all times with no objective in mind?
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > --ED
>> > > > > 
>> > > > > 
>> > > > > 
>> > > > > > > > Joe and Merle,
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > There is no 'goal' of enlightenment to be achieved without 
>> > > > > > > > which
>> > > > > you
>> > > > > > > imagine you are incomplete
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > There is no incompleteness. This understanding is an essential
>> > > > > aspect
>> > > > > > > of realization...
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > Wham!
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > Edgar
>> > > > >
>> > > >
>> > >
>> > 
>> >
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>

 

Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"

[Edgar Owen]

Mike,

Excellent question. I'll paraphrase it as 'how can delusional beliefs 
(illogical beliefs) be part of reality if reality (the world of forms) which 
includes everything is a logical structure'?

The short answer is that illogical beliefs must be taken in their greater 
context in which they become logical. For example if someone was raised in a 
fundamentalist Christian upbringing it is LOGICAL they will grow up with 
delusional beliefs. Those beliefs are the LOGICAL outcome of that upbringing... 
Same with Australian aborigines raised in their culture.

BTW I wasn't critical of people raised in delusion. Everyone is to some extent. 
I was critical of the delusions in question. 

But realization requires correcting delusion. Only when delusion is corrected 
can realization take place...

To answer your last question. Chi is simply the internal feeling of the life 
force that everyone has. It IS direct experience of one's own being and one's 
relationship to the rest of reality. It's existence is self evident and with us 
directly experienced every moment of our lives.

As to spirit, depends on how you define it Different people define it 
different ways, some supernaturally, some as an equivalent term for Buddha 
Nature = Tao = ontological energy

Edgar





On Sep 2, 2012, at 8:11 AM, mike brown wrote:

> 
> Edgar,
> 
> Don't you contradict yourself here somewhat? You were previously critical of 
> people from cultures where they may have a belief in dragons or rainbow 
> serpents etc. Aren't these beliefs part of the Truth (Buddha Nature) as well 
> then? Especially when they haven't had, or even when they have had, contact 
> with contemporary science. If you believe in 'chi' energy, what's the 
> difference in believing in 'spirit'?
> 
> Mike
> 
> From: Edgar Owen 
> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
> Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 13:00
> Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"
> 
>  
> Bill!
> 
> And that my friend is precisely the problem. Logic, like everything else that 
> exists IS Buddha Nature. Because there is nothing that is NOT Buddha nature...
> 
> I think we've honed into the absolute kernel and crux of the disagreement 
> right here ...
> 
> See what I'm saying?
> 
> You adopt a dualistic view by denying part of what exists is part of Buddha 
> Nature. 
> I point out there is no such dualism because everything that exists is part 
> of reality (Buddha Nature) by definition, including things such as logic and 
> your daily life using logic making a living, that you deny is part of Buddha 
> Nature. 
> 
> 
> This is the MOST IMPORTANT post of mine to Bill! ever! I only hope this will 
> be a super Kwatz moment and that Bill! won't try to avoid and ignore the koan 
> as usual
> 
> Edgar
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Sep 2, 2012, at 7:32 AM, Bill! wrote:
> 
>>  
>> Edgar,
>> 
>> Sometimes I think you don't read my posts.
>> 
>> I NEVER said I don't use logic. I use it all the time. I make my living 
>> using it. I don't however mistake logic for Buddha Nature.
>> 
>> ...Bill!
>> 
>> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen  wrote:
>> >
>> > Bill!,
>> > 
>> > Proving Bill! still uses his considerable intelligence to negotiate the 
>> > rational world of forms contrary to what he claims and would have us 
>> > believe 
>> > :-)
>> > 
>> > Edgar
>> > 
>> > 
>> > 
>> > On Sep 2, 2012, at 4:46 AM, Bill! wrote:
>> > 
>> > > Bill,
>> > > 
>> > > I've had a lot of practice trying to follow Edgar's posts. I'm sure 
>> > > you'll get the hang of it sooner or later.
>> > > 
>> > > ...Bill!
>> > > 
>> > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, William Rintala  wrote:
>> > > >
>> > > > Thank you for that Edgar. I can follow your emails better if you give 
>> > > > them to 
>> > > > me a teaspoon at a time, unlike Bill! who seems to follow what you say 
>> > > > with 
>> > > > ease. 
>> > > > 
>> > > > Â Bill not Bill! 
>> > > > 
>> > > > 
>> > > > 
>> > > > 
>> > > > Find what makes your heart sing…and do it! 
>> > > > 
>> > > > 
>> > > > 
>> > > > 
>> > > > 
>> > > > From: Edgar Owen 
>> > > > To:

Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"

[Edgar Owen]

No, it's Bill! with his pants down doing "naked yoga"!

Edgar



On Sep 2, 2012, at 8:12 AM, mike brown wrote:

> 
> "That's not a moon - that's a space station".
> 
> Mike
> 
> From: Edgar Owen 
> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
> Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 13:04
> Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"
> 
>  
> MIke,
> 
> Those words are fingers providing directions to the landing pad to the moon.
> 
> EDgar
> 
> 
> 
> On Sep 2, 2012, at 7:46 AM, mike brown wrote:
> 
>>  
>> 
>> Edgar,
>> 
>> Of course Realisation is not something that happens only inside monastry 
>> walls, but it also doesn't come from understanding words like "ontological" 
>> and "cognitive simulation model" either. 
>> 
>> Mike
>> 
>> 
>> From: Edgar Owen 
>> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
>> Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 12:31
>> Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"
>> 
>>  
>> Mike,
>> 
>> There are certainly times it is, but that can happen at any time 
>> Realization is not just something that occurs inside monastery walls... It 
>> has nothing to do with that... It's just opening to reality and reality is 
>> everywhere...
>> 
>> Edgar
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Sep 2, 2012, at 5:57 AM, mike brown wrote:
>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>> Edgar,
>>> 
>>> Wouldn't you say tho, that reality is less obscured during, or just after, 
>>> a long retreat of meditation?
>>> 
>>> Mike
>>> 
>>> From: Edgar Owen 
>>> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
>>> Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 1:13
>>> Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"
>>> 
>>>  
>>> Mike,
>>> 
>>> Well, it's reality either way, but that reality is always changing as 
>>> happening continually flows through the present moment. But however it 
>>> changes it is still reality
>>> 
>>> Edgar
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Sep 1, 2012, at 6:09 PM, mike brown wrote:
>>> 
>>>>  
>>>> 
>>>> Edgar,
>>>> 
>>>> Would you say that the world (inner/outer) you look at now is the same as 
>>>> when you're at the end of a sesshin? 
>>>> 
>>>> Mike
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> From: Edgar Owen 
>>>> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
>>>> Sent: Saturday, 1 September 2012, 18:44
>>>> Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"
>>>> 
>>>>  
>>>> ED,
>>>> 
>>>> Stop practicing and just BE your Buddha Nature!
>>>> 
>>>> Edgar
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On Sep 1, 2012, at 12:22 PM, ED wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>>  
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Edgar,
>>>>> 
>>>>> Therefore, although each of us is complete, we need to practice
>>>>> diligently at all times with no objective in mind?
>>>>> 
>>>>> --ED
>>>>> 
>>>>> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen  wrote:
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Joe and Merle,
>>>>> >
>>>>> > There is no 'goal' of enlightenment to be achieved without which you
>>>>> imagine you are incomplete
>>>>> >
>>>>> > There is no incompleteness. This understanding is an essential aspect
>>>>> of realization...
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Wham!
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Edgar
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 

Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"

[Edgar Owen]

Mike,

Sorry for ruining your appetite!

Maybe Merle's running naked through the daffodils site will restore it!
:-)

Edgar



On Sep 2, 2012, at 8:14 AM, mike brown wrote:

> 
> Edgar,
> 
> Thanks. You do know it's dinner time here in the UK, right?
> 
> Mike
> 
> From: Edgar Owen 
> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
> Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 13:09
> Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"
> 
>  
> Mike,
> 
> You mean you haven't seen Bill's naked zazen photos?
> :-)
> 
> Edgar
> 
> 
> 
> On Sep 2, 2012, at 7:59 AM, mike brown wrote:
> 
>>  
>> 
>> Naked Yoga Forum? If that's run by you and Edgar, then I hope it's strictly 
>> conducted in the written medium only. God forbid.
>> 
>> Mike
>> 
>> 
>> From: Bill! 
>> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
>> Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 12:53
>> Subject: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"
>> 
>>  
>> I agree with Edgar!
>> 
>> ...and that's how we pump-up the post count so we can increase our 
>> commission checks and some day retire to become moderators of the Yahoo! 
>> Naked Yoga Forum.
>> 
>> ...Bill!
>> 
>> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen  wrote:
>> >
>> > Bill!, Mike and ED,
>> > 
>> > Yes, I'll continually fill your bowls with the gruel of realization while 
>> > Bill! continually washes it right out of your bowls! again
>> > :-)
>> > 
>> > EDgar
>> > 
>> > 
>> > 
>> > On Sep 2, 2012, at 7:16 AM, Bill! wrote:
>> > 
>> > > Mike and ED,
>> > > 
>> > > Or how about...Just continue to exchange posts with Edgar. He's got what 
>> > > seems to be an unlimited supply of rice gruel. He'll keep your bowl 
>> > > filled to the brim!
>> > > 
>> > > ...Bill!
>> > > 
>> > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "Bill!"  wrote:
>> > > >
>> > > > Mike, Point taken, but this is the Zen Forum, not the Theravada Forum 
>> > > > or the Here-Have-Some-More-Rice-Gruel Forum.
>> > > > 
>> > > > ED, Just sit. Don't think. Just sit.
>> > > > 
>> > > > ...Bill!
>> > > > 
>> > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown  wrote:
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Bill!,
>> > > > > 
>> > > > > A great instruction, and is certainly direct, but Joshu's 
>> > > > > instructions were given to a monk who had probably been practicing 
>> > > > > meditation for a long time and was already 'ripe' for awakening to 
>> > > > > happen. Imagine how useful that instruction would be to a neophyte 
>> > > > > coming off the street asking about the search for truth or something 
>> > > > > similar. Joshu's instruction is just that - an instruction. That's 
>> > > > > why i believe Buddha's skilful means (upaya) is so useful as a 
>> > > > > teaching method. On the one side we can have the direct pointing to 
>> > > > > the Dharma (Zen) and on the other we can have Therevada Buddhism 
>> > > > > with it's more step by step instructions, such as following the 
>> > > > > Noble eightfold Path. 
>> > > > > 
>> > > > > The Buddha was very wise to understand that there are many different 
>> > > > > kinds of people/cultures/personalities etc. out there and no one 
>> > > > > method will work for all. I think it should be clear now that "wash 
>> > > > > you bowls" just isn't going to work for someone like ED. If you 
>> > > > > agree, what else could you say that might help him?
>> > > > > 
>> > > > > Mike
>> > > > > 
>> > > > > 
>> > > > > 
>> > > > > 
>> > > > > 
>> > > > > From: Bill! 
>> > > > > To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
>> > > > > Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 9:48
>> > > > > Subject: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"
>> > > > > 
>> > > > > 
>> > > > > Â 
>> > > > > ED,
>> > > &g

Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"

[Edgar Owen]

Bill!

Completely wrong! That's the view that was rejected by the master who chose Hui 
Neng over the monk who claimed Zen was keeping the mirror free of dust

Read Hui Neng's poem again.

There is NO mirror that needs dusting to keep it clean. 
There is NO bowl that needs to be washed!


Edgar



On Sep 2, 2012, at 7:51 AM, Bill! wrote:

> A clean bowl is realization...Bill!
> 
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown  wrote:
> >
> > Edgar,
> > 
> > Exactly.
> > 
> > Mike
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > From: Edgar Owen 
> > To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
> > Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 12:35
> > Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"
> > 
> > 
> > Â  
> > Mike,
> > 
> > Yes, the problem with these pithy 'in crowd' Zen sayings is that bowls can 
> > be washed WITHOUT realization just as they can be WITH realization...
> > 
> > Edgar
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > On Sep 2, 2012, at 6:19 AM, mike brown wrote:
> > 
> > Â  
> > >
> > >
> > >Bill!,
> > >
> > >A great instruction, and is certainly direct, but Joshu's instructions 
> > >were given to a monk who had probably been practicing meditation for a 
> > >long time and was already 'ripe' for awakening to happen. Imagine how 
> > >useful that instruction would be to a neophyte coming off the street 
> > >asking about the search for truth or something similar. Joshu's 
> > >instruction is just that - an instruction. That's why i believe Buddha's 
> > >skilful means (upaya) is so useful as a teaching method. On the one side 
> > >we can have the direct pointing to the Dharma (Zen) and on the other we 
> > >can have Therevada Buddhism with it's more step by step instructions, such 
> > >as following the Noble eightfold Path. 
> > >
> > >The Buddha was very wise to understand that there are many different kinds 
> > >of people/cultures/personalities etc. out there and no one method will work
> > for all. I think it should be clear now that "wash you bowls" just isn't 
> > going to work for someone like ED. If you agree, what else could you say 
> > that might help him?
> > >
> > >Mike
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > From: Bill! 
> > >To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
> > >Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 9:48
> > >Subject: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"
> > > 
> > >
> > >Â  
> > >ED,
> > >
> > >Mind if Joshu and I jump in?
> > >
> > >"WASH YOUR BOWLS!" That's how...Bill! (and Joshu)
> > >
> > >--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "ED"  wrote:
> > >>
> > >> 
> > >> 
> > >> Edgar,
> > >> 
> > >> And how is this magic trick accomplished?
> > >> 
> > >> --ED
> > >> 
> > >> 
> > >> 
> > >> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen  wrote:
> > >> >
> > >> > ED,
> > >> >
> > >> > Stop practicing and just BE your Buddha Nature!
> > >> >
> > >> > Edgar
> > >> 
> > >> 
> > >> 
> > >> > > Edgar,
> > >> > >
> > >> > > Therefore, although each of us is complete, we need to practice
> > >> > > diligently at all times with no objective in mind?
> > >> > >
> > >> > > --ED
> > >> 
> > >> 
> > >> 
> > >> > > > Joe and Merle,
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > There is no 'goal' of enlightenment to be achieved without which
> > >> you
> > >> > > imagine you are incomplete
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > There is no incompleteness. This understanding is an essential
> > >> aspect
> > >> > > of realization...
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > Wham!
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > Edgar
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> 
> 

Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"

[Kristopher Grey]

On 9/2/2012 7:05 AM, mike brown wrote:
> But if you do find yourself thinking, just come back gently to the breath.


A tri-ku for you:


With each rise and fall
The breath is grasped and released
Each, a birth and death


Immersed in thinking
Self can be found nowhere else
Always lost in thought


Mind, a stream of thought
Following, or flowing by
The way, like water




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Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"

[Kristopher Grey]

Tenzo's mindfulness
Working to keep bellies full
Empty bowls dirtied

KG

(PS - "Wash your bowl!" *L*)


On 9/2/2012 7:24 AM, mike brown wrote:

Bill!,

Sure. Wouldn't survive long without eating. I see Buddha's teachings 
as the chef and you and Edgar as the waiters tho.


Bon appetite!

Mike


*From:* Bill! 
*To:* Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
*Sent:* Sunday, 2 September 2012, 12:16
*Subject:* [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"

Mike and ED,

Or how about...Just continue to exchange posts with Edgar. He's got 
what seems to be an unlimited supply of rice gruel. He'll keep your 
bowl filled to the brim!


...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>, 
"Bill!"  wrote:

>
> Mike, Point taken, but this is the Zen Forum, not the Theravada 
Forum or the Here-Have-Some-More-Rice-Gruel Forum.

>
> ED, Just sit. Don't think. Just sit.
>
> ...Bill!
>
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
<mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>, mike brown  wrote:

> >
> > Bill!,
> >
> > A great instruction, and is certainly direct, but Joshu's 
instructions were given to a monk who had probably been practicing 
meditation for a long time and was already 'ripe' for awakening to 
happen. Imagine how useful that instruction would be to a neophyte 
coming off the street asking about the search for truth or something 
similar. Joshu's instruction is just that - an instruction. That's why 
i believe Buddha's skilful means (upaya) is so useful as a teaching 
method. On the one side we can have the direct pointing to the Dharma 
(Zen) and on the other we can have Therevada Buddhism with it's more 
step by step instructions, such as following the Noble eightfold Path.

> >
> > The Buddha was very wise to understand that there are many 
different kinds of people/cultures/personalities etc. out there and no 
one method will work for all. I think it should be clear now that 
"wash you bowls" just isn't going to work for someone like ED. If you 
agree, what else could you say that might help him?

> >
> > Mike
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > 
> > From: Bill! 
> > To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 9:48
> > Subject: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"
> >
> >
> > Â
> > ED,
> >
> > Mind if Joshu and I jump in?
> >
> > "WASH YOUR BOWLS!" That's how...Bill! (and Joshu)
> >
> > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
<mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>, "ED"  wrote:

> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Edgar,
> > >
> > > And how is this magic trick accomplished?
> > >
> > > --ED
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
<mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>, Edgar Owen  wrote:

> > > >
> > > > ED,
> > > >
> > > > Stop practicing and just BE your Buddha Nature!
> > > >
> > > > Edgar
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > > Edgar,
> > > > >
> > > > > Therefore, although each of us is complete, we need to practice
> > > > > diligently at all times with no objective in mind?
> > > > >
> > > > > --ED
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > > > Joe and Merle,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > There is no 'goal' of enlightenment to be achieved without 
which

> > > you
> > > > > imagine you are incomplete
> > > > > >
> > > > > > There is no incompleteness. This understanding is an essential
> > > aspect
> > > > > of realization...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Wham!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Edgar
> > >
> >
>

Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"

[Kristopher Grey]

Realizing this, what lacks? *L*

KG

On 9/2/2012 7:35 AM, Edgar Owen wrote:


Mike,


Yes, the problem with these pithy 'in crowd' Zen sayings is that bowls 
can be washed WITHOUT realization just as they can be WITH realization...


Edgar



On Sep 2, 2012, at 6:19 AM, mike brown wrote:



Bill!,

A great instruction, and is certainly direct, but Joshu's 
instructions were given to a monk who had probably been practicing 
meditation for a long time and was already 'ripe' for awakening to 
happen. Imagine how useful that instruction would be to a neophyte 
coming off the street asking about the search for truth or something 
similar. Joshu's instruction is just that - an instruction. That's 
why i believe Buddha's skilful means (upaya) is so useful as a 
teaching method. On the one side we can have the direct pointing to 
the Dharma (Zen) and on the other we can have Therevada Buddhism with 
it's more step by step instructions, such as following the Noble 
eightfold Path.


The Buddha was very wise to understand that there are many different 
kinds of people/cultures/personalities etc. out there and no one 
method will work for all. I think it should be clear now that "wash 
you bowls" just isn't going to work for someone like ED. If you 
agree, what else could you say that might help him?


Mike



*From:* Bill! mailto:billsm...@hhs1963.org>>
*To:* Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com>
*Sent:* Sunday, 2 September 2012, 9:48
*Subject:* [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"

ED,

Mind if Joshu and I jump in?

"WASH YOUR BOWLS!" That's how...Bill! (and Joshu)

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
<mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>, "ED"  wrote:

>
>
>
> Edgar,
>
> And how is this magic trick accomplished?
>
> --ED
>
>
>
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
<mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>, Edgar Owen  wrote:

> >
> > ED,
> >
> > Stop practicing and just BE your Buddha Nature!
> >
> > Edgar
>
>
>
> > > Edgar,
> > >
> > > Therefore, although each of us is complete, we need to practice
> > > diligently at all times with no objective in mind?
> > >
> > > --ED
>
>
>
> > > > Joe and Merle,
> > > >
> > > > There is no 'goal' of enlightenment to be achieved without which
> you
> > > imagine you are incomplete
> > > >
> > > > There is no incompleteness. This understanding is an essential
> aspect
> > > of realization...
> > > >
> > > > Wham!
> > > >
> > > > Edgar
>

Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"

[Kristopher Grey]

On 9/2/2012 7:40 AM, Edgar Owen wrote:
> Do everything in daily life with realization...

Realizing this is not a choice, not a doing - only a cessation of 
delusion and attendant suffering.

I do not mean to be contrary saying this, but only to help remove 
misconceptions about what can and cannot be done to realize this.

KG




Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are 
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Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"

[Kristopher Grey]

Realizing this, what lacks? *L*

On 9/2/2012 7:43 AM, Edgar Owen wrote:


Mike, and Bill!


The problem with "wash your bowls" and other pithy Zen aphorisms is 
that it's equally possible to wash bowls without realization as it is 
with realization..


Edgar



On Sep 2, 2012, at 6:19 AM, mike brown wrote:



Bill!,

A great instruction, and is certainly direct, but Joshu's 
instructions were given to a monk who had probably been practicing 
meditation for a long time and was already 'ripe' for awakening to 
happen. Imagine how useful that instruction would be to a neophyte 
coming off the street asking about the search for truth or something 
similar. Joshu's instruction is just that - an instruction. That's 
why i believe Buddha's skilful means (upaya) is so useful as a 
teaching method. On the one side we can have the direct pointing to 
the Dharma (Zen) and on the other we can have Therevada Buddhism with 
it's more step by step instructions, such as following the Noble 
eightfold Path.


The Buddha was very wise to understand that there are many different 
kinds of people/cultures/personalities etc. out there and no one 
method will work for all. I think it should be clear now that "wash 
you bowls" just isn't going to work for someone like ED. If you 
agree, what else could you say that might help him?


Mike



*From:* Bill! mailto:billsm...@hhs1963.org>>
*To:* Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com>
*Sent:* Sunday, 2 September 2012, 9:48
*Subject:* [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"

ED,

Mind if Joshu and I jump in?

"WASH YOUR BOWLS!" That's how...Bill! (and Joshu)

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
<mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>, "ED"  wrote:

>
>
>
> Edgar,
>
> And how is this magic trick accomplished?
>
> --ED
>
>
>
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
<mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>, Edgar Owen  wrote:

> >
> > ED,
> >
> > Stop practicing and just BE your Buddha Nature!
> >
> > Edgar
>
>
>
> > > Edgar,
> > >
> > > Therefore, although each of us is complete, we need to practice
> > > diligently at all times with no objective in mind?
> > >
> > > --ED
>
>
>
> > > > Joe and Merle,
> > > >
> > > > There is no 'goal' of enlightenment to be achieved without which
> you
> > > imagine you are incomplete
> > > >
> > > > There is no incompleteness. This understanding is an essential
> aspect
> > > of realization...
> > > >
> > > > Wham!
> > > >
> > > > Edgar
>

Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"

[Kristopher Grey]

I might point out that apparent obscuration is no less reality than 
apparent clarity. In doing so, this point only dances around itself - 
offers nothing you can't realize directly.


What can anyone say in response that you will not directly experience 
(realize) as some aspect of this reality/realization- whether you 
realize it or not - just as when experiencing meditation/not meditation?


This more or less business is you triangulating your position. Nothing 
more, nothing less.


KG



On 9/2/2012 5:57 AM, mike brown wrote:

Edgar,

Wouldn't you say tho, that reality is less obscured during, or just 
after, a long retreat of meditation?


Mike


*From:* Edgar Owen 
*To:* Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
*Sent:* Sunday, 2 September 2012, 1:13
*Subject:* Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"

Mike,

Well, it's reality either way, but that reality is always changing as 
happening continually flows through the present moment. But however it 
changes it is still reality


Edgar



On Sep 1, 2012, at 6:09 PM, mike brown wrote:



Edgar,

Would you say that the world (inner/outer) you look at now is the 
same as when you're at the end of a sesshin?


Mike



*From:* Edgar Owen mailto:edgaro...@att.net>>
*To:* Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com>
*Sent:* Saturday, 1 September 2012, 18:44
*Subject:* Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"

ED,

Stop practicing and just BE your Buddha Nature!

Edgar


On Sep 1, 2012, at 12:22 PM, ED wrote:




Edgar,

Therefore, although each of us is complete, we need to practice
diligently at all times with no objective in mind?

--ED

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
<mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>, Edgar Owen  wrote:

>
> Joe and Merle,
>
> There is no 'goal' of enlightenment to be achieved without which you
imagine you are incomplete
>
> There is no incompleteness. This understanding is an essential aspect
of realization...
>
> Wham!
>
> Edgar

Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"

[Kristopher Grey]

With or without. Why decide?

"Don't know" (Which only appears to be a pithy zen saying when seen so)

KG

On 9/2/2012 7:46 AM, mike brown wrote:

Edgar,

Of course Realisation is not something that happens only inside 
monastry walls, but it also doesn't come from understanding words like 
"ontological" and "cognitive simulation model" either.


Mike



*From:* Edgar Owen 
*To:* Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
*Sent:* Sunday, 2 September 2012, 12:31
*Subject:* Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"

Mike,

There are certainly times it is, but that can happen at any time 
Realization is not just something that occurs inside monastery 
walls... It has nothing to do with that... It's just opening to 
reality and reality is everywhere...


Edgar



On Sep 2, 2012, at 5:57 AM, mike brown wrote:



Edgar,

Wouldn't you say tho, that reality is less obscured during, or just 
after, a long retreat of meditation?


Mike


*From:* Edgar Owen mailto:edgaro...@att.net>>
*To:* Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com>
*Sent:* Sunday, 2 September 2012, 1:13
*Subject:* Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"

Mike,

Well, it's reality either way, but that reality is always changing as 
happening continually flows through the present moment. But however 
it changes it is still reality


Edgar



On Sep 1, 2012, at 6:09 PM, mike brown wrote:



Edgar,

Would you say that the world (inner/outer) you look at now is the 
same as when you're at the end of a sesshin?


Mike



*From:* Edgar Owen mailto:edgaro...@att.net>>
*To:* Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com>
*Sent:* Saturday, 1 September 2012, 18:44
*Subject:* Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"

ED,

Stop practicing and just BE your Buddha Nature!

Edgar


On Sep 1, 2012, at 12:22 PM, ED wrote:




Edgar,

Therefore, although each of us is complete, we need to practice
diligently at all times with no objective in mind?

--ED

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
<mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>, Edgar Owen  wrote:

>
> Joe and Merle,
>
> There is no 'goal' of enlightenment to be achieved without which you
imagine you are incomplete
>
> There is no incompleteness. This understanding is an essential aspect
of realization...
>
> Wham!
>
> Edgar

Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"

[Kristopher Grey]

So you both have the same problem with this! *L*

KG

On 9/2/2012 7:47 AM, mike brown wrote:

Edgar,

Exactly.

Mike


*From:* Edgar Owen 
*To:* Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
*Sent:* Sunday, 2 September 2012, 12:35
*Subject:* Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"

Mike,

Yes, the problem with these pithy 'in crowd' Zen sayings is that bowls 
can be washed WITHOUT realization just as they can be WITH realization...


Edgar



On Sep 2, 2012, at 6:19 AM, mike brown wrote:



Bill!,

A great instruction, and is certainly direct, but Joshu's 
instructions were given to a monk who had probably been practicing 
meditation for a long time and was already 'ripe' for awakening to 
happen. Imagine how useful that instruction would be to a neophyte 
coming off the street asking about the search for truth or something 
similar. Joshu's instruction is just that - an instruction. That's 
why i believe Buddha's skilful means (upaya) is so useful as a 
teaching method. On the one side we can have the direct pointing to 
the Dharma (Zen) and on the other we can have Therevada Buddhism with 
it's more step by step instructions, such as following the Noble 
eightfold Path.


The Buddha was very wise to understand that there are many different 
kinds of people/cultures/personalities etc. out there and no one 
method will work for all. I think it should be clear now that "wash 
you bowls" just isn't going to work for someone like ED. If you 
agree, what else could you say that might help him?


Mike



*From:* Bill! mailto:billsm...@hhs1963.org>>
*To:* Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com>
*Sent:* Sunday, 2 September 2012, 9:48
*Subject:* [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"

ED,

Mind if Joshu and I jump in?

"WASH YOUR BOWLS!" That's how...Bill! (and Joshu)

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
<mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>, "ED"  wrote:

>
>
>
> Edgar,
>
> And how is this magic trick accomplished?
>
> --ED
>
>
>
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
<mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>, Edgar Owen  wrote:

> >
> > ED,
> >
> > Stop practicing and just BE your Buddha Nature!
> >
> > Edgar
>
>
>
> > > Edgar,
> > >
> > > Therefore, although each of us is complete, we need to practice
> > > diligently at all times with no objective in mind?
> > >
> > > --ED
>
>
>
> > > > Joe and Merle,
> > > >
> > > > There is no 'goal' of enlightenment to be achieved without which
> you
> > > imagine you are incomplete
> > > >
> > > > There is no incompleteness. This understanding is an essential
> aspect
> > > of realization...
> > > >
> > > > Wham!
> > > >
> > > > Edgar
>

Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"

[William Rintala]

I understand what you are saying here, that our perception of reality is a 
logical outgrowth of our preconceptions, our starting places.  I balk at 
labeling it delusional. There are many paths to the same place.  We can start 
with logic and say that 1+1=2 but is that true in all cases?  That 2 points in 
space define a straight line but is that always the case? Is it delusional 
to believe that?
 Bill 




Find what makes your heart sing…and do it! 





From: Edgar Owen 
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sun, September 2, 2012 7:25:59 AM
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"

  
Mike, 

Excellent question. I'll paraphrase it as 'how can delusional beliefs 
(illogical 
beliefs) be part of reality if reality (the world of forms) which includes 
everything is a logical structure'?

The short answer is that illogical beliefs must be taken in their greater 
context in which they become logical. For example if someone was raised in a 
fundamentalist Christian upbringing it is LOGICAL they will grow up with 
delusional beliefs. Those beliefs are the LOGICAL outcome of that upbringing... 
Same with Australian aborigines raised in their culture.

BTW I wasn't critical of people raised in delusion. Everyone is to some extent. 
I was critical of the delusions in question. 

But realization requires correcting delusion. Only when delusion is corrected 
can realization take place...

To answer your last question. Chi is simply the internal feeling of the life 
force that everyone has. It IS direct experience of one's own being and one's 
relationship to the rest of reality. It's existence is self evident and with us 
directly experienced every moment of our lives.

As to spirit, depends on how you define it Different people define it 
different ways, some supernaturally, some as an equivalent term for Buddha 
Nature = Tao = ontological energy

Edgar






On Sep 2, 2012, at 8:11 AM, mike brown wrote:

  
>
>
>Edgar,
>
>
>Don't you contradict yourself here somewhat? You were previously critical of 
>people from cultures where they may have a belief in dragons or rainbow 
>serpents 
>etc. Aren't these beliefs part of the Truth (Buddha Nature) as well then? 
>Especially when they haven't had, or even when they have had, contact with 
>contemporary science. If you believe in 'chi' energy, what's the difference in 
>believing in 'spirit'?
>
>
>Mike
>
>
>
________________
From: Edgar Owen 
>To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
>Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 13:00
>Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"
>
>
>  
>Bill!
>
>
>And that my friend is precisely the problem. Logic, like everything else that 
>exists IS Buddha Nature. Because there is nothing that is NOT Buddha nature...
>
>
>I think we've honed into the absolute kernel and crux of the disagreement 
>right 
>here ...
>
>
>See what I'm saying?
>
>
>You adopt a dualistic view by denying part of what exists is part of Buddha 
>Nature. 
>I point out there is no such dualism because everything that exists is part of 
>reality (Buddha Nature) by definition, including things such as logic and your 
>daily life using logic making a living, that you deny is part of Buddha 
>Nature. 
>
>
>
>
>This is the MOST IMPORTANT post of mine to Bill! ever! I only hope this will 
>be 
>a super Kwatz moment and that Bill! won't try to avoid and ignore the koan as 
>usual
>
>
>Edgar
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>On Sep 2, 2012, at 7:32 AM, Bill! wrote:
>
>  
>>Edgar,
>>
>>Sometimes I think you don't read my posts.
>>
>>I NEVER said I don't use logic. I use it all the time. I make my living using 
>>it. I don't however mistake logic for Buddha Nature.
>>
>>...Bill!
>>
>>--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen  wrote:
>>>
>>> Bill!,
>>> 
>>> Proving Bill! still uses his considerable intelligence to negotiate the 
>>>rational world of forms contrary to what he claims and would have us believe 
>>>
>>> :-)
>>> 
>>> Edgar
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Sep 2, 2012, at 4:46 AM, Bill! wrote:
>>> 
>>> > Bill,
>>> > 
>>> > I've had a lot of practice trying to follow Edgar's posts. I'm sure 
>>> > you'll 
>>>get the hang of it sooner or later.
>>> > 
>>> > ...Bill!
>>> > 
>>> > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, William Rintala  wrote:
>>> > >
>>> > > Thank you for tha

Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"

[mike brown]

Kris,

Very good! You must have given that a lot of thought ; )

>Self can be found nowhere else

Of course. Self/Buddha Nature/Awareness is unborn (and therefore never dies) 
and so is ever present regardless of what we are thinking/doing. But suffering 
arises when we think there is an independent 'I' having those thoughts. That we 
have this Realisation is the difference. How this Realisation manifests is 
unimportant. For some it will be sudden for others gradual. But you're correct 
that Self alwaysis. 

Mke




 From: Kristopher Grey 
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 15:42
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"
 

  
On 9/2/2012 7:05 AM, mike brown wrote:
> But if you do find yourself thinking, just come back gently to the breath.

A tri-ku for you:

With each rise and fall
The breath is grasped and released
Each, a birth and death

Immersed in thinking
Self can be found nowhere else
Always lost in thought

Mind, a stream of thought
Following, or flowing by
The way, like water

 

Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"

[mike brown]

Kris,

>I might point out that apparent obscuration is no less reality than apparent 
>clarity

Reality is certainly there regardless, but reality seen with obscuration leads 
to suffering, whereas reality seen with clarity will lead to the cessation of 
suffering. That's all I need to know and that is my witness.  

Mike




 From: Kristopher Grey 
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 16:11
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"
 

  
I might point out that apparent obscuration is no less reality than apparent 
clarity. In doing so, this point only dances around itself - offers nothing you 
can't realize directly.

What can anyone say in response that you will not directly
  experience (realize) as some aspect of this reality/realization-
  whether you realize it or not - just as when experiencing
  meditation/not meditation?

This more or less business is you triangulating your position.
  Nothing more, nothing less.

KG



On 9/2/2012 5:57 AM, mike brown wrote:

  
>Edgar,
>
>
>Wouldn't you say tho, that reality is less obscured during, or just after, a 
>long retreat of meditation?
>
>
>Mike
>
>
>
>
> From: Edgar Owen 
>To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
>Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 1:13
>Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"
> 
>
>  
>Mike,
>
>
>Well, it's reality either way, but that reality is always changing as 
>happening continually flows through the present moment. But however it changes 
>it is still reality
>
>
>Edgar
>
>
>
>
>
>
>On Sep 1, 2012, at 6:09 PM, mike brown wrote:
>
>  
>>
>>
>>Edgar,
>>
>>
>>Would you say that the world (inner/outer) you look at now is the same as 
>>when you're at the end of a sesshin? 
>>
>>
>>
>>Mike
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> From: Edgar Owen 
>>To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
>>Sent: Saturday, 1 September 2012, 18:44
>>Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"
>> 
>>
>>  
>>ED,
>>
>>
>>Stop practicing and just BE your Buddha Nature!
>>
>>
>>Edgar
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>On Sep 1, 2012, at 12:22 PM, ED wrote:
>>
>>  
>>>
>>>
>>>Edgar,
>>>
>>>Therefore,
  although each
  of us is
  complete, we
  need to
  practice
>>>diligently at
  all times with
  no objective
  in mind?
>>>
>>>--ED
>>>
>>>--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen  wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Joe and
  Merle,
>>>>
>>>> There is
  no 'goal' of
  enlightenment
  to be achieved
  without which
  you
>>>imagine you
  are
  incomplete
>>>>
>>>> There is
  no
  incompleteness.
  This
  understanding
  is an
  essential
  aspect
>>>of
  realization...
>>>>
>>>> Wham!
>>>>
>>>> Edgar
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>

 

Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"

[mike brown]

Well, I guess there's sitting under a tree and then there's also sitting under 
a tree.

No problem.

Mike




 From: Kristopher Grey 
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 16:15
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"
 

  
So you both have the same problem with this! *L*

KG

On 9/2/2012 7:47 AM, mike brown wrote:

  
>Edgar,
>
>
>Exactly.
>
>
>Mike
>
>
>
>
> From: Edgar Owen 
>To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
>Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 12:35
>Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"
> 
>
>  
>Mike,
>
>
>Yes, the problem with these pithy 'in crowd' Zen sayings is that bowls can be 
>washed WITHOUT realization just as they can be WITH realization...
>
>
>Edgar
>
>
>
>
>
>
>On Sep 2, 2012, at 6:19 AM, mike brown wrote:
>
>  
>>
>>
>>Bill!,
>>
>>A great instruction, and is
certainly direct, but Joshu's
instructions were given to a monk
who had probably been practicing
meditation for a long time and was
already 'ripe' for awakening to
happen. Imagine how useful that
instruction would be to a neophyte
coming off the street asking about
the search for truth or something
similar. Joshu's instruction is just
that - an instruction. That's why i
believe Buddha's skilful means
(upaya) is so useful as a teaching
method. On the one side we can have
the direct pointing to the Dharma
(Zen) and on the other we can have
Therevada Buddhism with it's more
step by step instructions, such as
following the Noble eightfold Path. 
>>
>>The Buddha was very wise to
understand that there are many
different kinds of
people/cultures/personalities etc.
out there and no one method will
work for all. I think it should be
clear now that "wash you bowls" just
isn't going to work for someone like
ED. If you agree, what else could
            you say that might help him?
>>
>>Mike
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> From: Bill! 
>>To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
>>Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 9:48
>>Subject: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"
>> 
>>
>>  
>>ED,
>>
>>Mind if Joshu and I jump
in?
>>
>>"WASH YOUR BOWLS!"
That's how...Bill! (and
Joshu)
>>
>>--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "ED"  wrote:
>>>
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Edgar,
>>> 
>>> And how is this
magic trick
accomplished?
>>> 
>>> --ED
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen  wrote:
>>> >
>>> > ED,
>>> >
>>> > Stop
practicing and just BE
your Buddha Nature!
>>> >
>>> > Edgar
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> > > Edgar,
>>> > >
>>> > >
Therefore, although each
of us is complete, we
need to practice
>>> > >
diligently at all times
with no objective in
  

Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"

[mike brown]

ED,

First of all, if my post sounded patronising to you then I apologise. My point 
is that there are many paths to Realisation and some are more suited to certain 
people than others. I can see how the direct, 'this is it - nothing 
lacks/nothing extra' approach of Zen works for some, but I can also see how the 
progressive, more detailed approach of Buddha's teachings works for others. 
Neither is right or wrong, or better or worse than the other. Ultimately the 
two extremes take us to the same Realisation.


I just wonder that after 10 years of Zen practice (and 8 years on this forum!), 
that you, like me. might benefit from a different approach than the directness 
of Zen. Actually, that's not strictly correct. I haven't 'dropped' Zen at all - 
I've just found that going back to the original teachings has enhanced my 
practice. People here can argue that this is necessary, or even possible, but 
only I can attest to what I know, or "don't know".

Mike




 From: ED 
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 16:50
Subject: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"
 

  

 Mike,
"Shut up and sit. Just THIS. Be here now. Walk on."
What 'helping' do you believe I or anyone else on this forum needs? 
--ED
PS: Is Zen really as complicated as these wordy discussions make it out to be?
  
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown  wrote:

Bill!,
The Buddha was very wise to understand that there are many different kinds of 
people/cultures/personalities etc. out there and no one method will work for 
all. I think it should be clear now that "wash you bowls" just isn't going to 
work for someone like ED. If you agree, what else could you say that might help 
him?
Mike
 
 

Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"

[mike brown]

ED,

>ED: This is a thought/conception/belief/assumption.)

Not at all, but you'd be right not to accept anyone's word for it. If it's only 
accepted at an intellectual level, then it's not worth the words used to 
explain it. It has to be experienced body and soul (Hence the burst of laughter 
and release when you see the obviousness of it). Just as knowing a glass of 
water is cold when you drink it straight from the fridge - and is not a belief 
or conception - so to is awakening to Buddha Nature.

>ED: This is a core teaching of the Buddha.  

Indeed.

Mike




 From: ED  wrote:
>
>  Self/Buddha Nature/Awareness is unborn (and therefore never dies) and so is 
> ever present regardless of what we are thinking/doing. 
ED: This is a thought/conception/belief/assumption.)
 
> But suffering arises when we think there is an independent 'I' having those 
> thoughts. 
ED: This is a core teaching of the Buddha.  
 
> Mike
 

Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"

[mike brown]

Kris,

>"Don't know" (Which only appears to be a pithy zen saying when seen so)

Or said so.

Mike




 From: Kristopher Grey 
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 16:14
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"
 

  
With or without. Why decide?

"Don't know" (Which only appears to be a pithy zen saying when
  seen so)

KG

On 9/2/2012 7:46 AM, mike brown wrote:

  
>Edgar,
>
>Of course Realisation is not something that happens only
  inside monastry walls, but it also doesn't come from
  understanding words like "ontological" and "cognitive
  simulation model" either. 
>
>Mike
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From: Edgar Owen 
>To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
>Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 12:31
>Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"
> 
>
>  
>Mike,
>
>
>There are certainly times it is, but that can happen at any time 
>Realization is not just something that occurs inside monastery walls... It has 
>nothing to do with that... It's just opening to reality and reality is 
>everywhere...
>
>
>Edgar
>
>
>
>
>
>
>On Sep 2, 2012, at 5:57 AM, mike brown wrote:
>
>  
>>
>>
>>Edgar,
>>
>>
>>Wouldn't you say tho, that reality is less obscured during, or just after, a 
>>long retreat of meditation?
>>
>>
>>Mike
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> From: Edgar Owen 
>>To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
>>Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 1:13
>>Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"
>> 
>>
>>  
>>Mike,
>>
>>
>>Well, it's reality either way, but that reality is always changing as 
>>happening continually flows through the present moment. But however it 
>>changes it is still reality
>>
>>
>>Edgar
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>On Sep 1, 2012, at 6:09 PM, mike brown wrote:
>>
>>  
>>>
>>>
>>>Edgar,
>>>
>>>
>>>Would you say that the world (inner/outer) you look at now is the same as 
>>>when you're at the end of a sesshin? 
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Mike
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> From: Edgar Owen 
>>>To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
>>>Sent: Saturday, 1 September 2012, 18:44
>>>Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"
>>> 
>>>
>>>  
>>>ED,
>>>
>>>
>>>Stop practicing and just BE your Buddha Nature!
>>>
>>>
>>>Edgar
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>On Sep 1, 2012, at 12:22 PM, ED wrote:
>>>
>>>  
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Edgar,
>>>>
>>>>Therefore,
  although each
  of us is
  complete, we
  need to
  practice
>>>>diligently at
  all times with
  no objective
  in mind?
>>>>
>>>>--ED
>>>>
>>>>--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen  wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Joe and
  Merle,
>>>>>
>>>>> There is
  no 'goal' of
  enlightenment
  to be achieved
  without which
  you
>>>>imagine you
  are
  incomplete
>>>>>
>>>>> There is
  no
  incompleteness.
  This
  understanding
  is an
  essential
  aspect
>>>>of
  realization...
>>>>>
>>>>> Wham!
>>>>>
>>>>> Edgar
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>

 

Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"

[Kristopher Grey]

Planted in neat rows
Harvested with sharp sickle
Winter approaches

KG


On 9/2/2012 8:25 AM, Edgar Owen wrote:


Mike,


Excellent question. I'll paraphrase it as 'how can delusional beliefs 
(illogical beliefs) be part of reality if reality (the world of forms) 
which includes everything is a logical structure'?


The short answer is that illogical beliefs must be taken in their 
greater context in which they become logical. For example if someone 
was raised in a fundamentalist Christian upbringing it is LOGICAL they 
will grow up with delusional beliefs. Those beliefs are the LOGICAL 
outcome of that upbringing... Same with Australian aborigines raised 
in their culture.


BTW I wasn't critical of people raised in delusion. Everyone is to 
some extent. I was critical of the delusions in question.


But realization requires correcting delusion. Only when delusion is 
corrected can realization take place...


To answer your last question. Chi is simply the internal feeling of 
the life force that everyone has. It IS direct experience of one's own 
being and one's relationship to the rest of reality. It's existence is 
self evident and with us directly experienced every moment of our lives.


As to spirit, depends on how you define it Different people define 
it different ways, some supernaturally, some as an equivalent term for 
Buddha Nature = Tao = ontological energy


Edgar





On Sep 2, 2012, at 8:11 AM, mike brown wrote:



Edgar,

Don't you contradict yourself here somewhat? You were previously 
critical of people from cultures where they may have a belief in 
dragons or rainbow serpents etc. Aren't these beliefs part of the 
Truth (Buddha Nature) as well then? Especially when they haven't had, 
or even when they have had, contact with contemporary science. If you 
believe in 'chi' energy, what's the difference in believing in 'spirit'?


Mike


*From:* Edgar Owen mailto:edgaro...@att.net>>
*To:* Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com>
*Sent:* Sunday, 2 September 2012, 13:00
*Subject:* Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"

Bill!

And that my friend is precisely the problem. Logic, like everything 
else that exists IS Buddha Nature. Because there is nothing that is 
NOT Buddha nature...


I think we've honed into the absolute kernel and crux of the 
disagreement right here ...


See what I'm saying?

You adopt a dualistic view by denying part of what exists is part of 
Buddha Nature.
I point out there is no such dualism because everything that exists 
is part of reality (Buddha Nature) by definition, including things 
such as logic and your daily life using logic making a living, that 
you deny is part of Buddha Nature.



This is the MOST IMPORTANT post of mine to Bill! ever! I only hope 
this will be a super Kwatz moment and that Bill! won't try to avoid 
and ignore the koan as usual


Edgar




On Sep 2, 2012, at 7:32 AM, Bill! wrote:


Edgar,

Sometimes I think you don't read my posts.

I NEVER said I don't use logic. I use it all the time. I make my 
living using it. I don't however mistake logic for Buddha Nature.


...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
<mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>, Edgar Owen  wrote:

>
> Bill!,
>
> Proving Bill! still uses his considerable intelligence to 
negotiate the rational world of forms contrary to what he claims and 
would have us believe 

> :-)
>
> Edgar
>
>
>
> On Sep 2, 2012, at 4:46 AM, Bill! wrote:
>
> > Bill,
> >
> > I've had a lot of practice trying to follow Edgar's posts. I'm 
sure you'll get the hang of it sooner or later.

> >
> > ...Bill!
> >
> > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
<mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>, William Rintala  wrote:

> > >
> > > Thank you for that Edgar. I can follow your emails better if 
you give them to
> > > me a teaspoon at a time, unlike Bill! who seems to follow what 
you say with

> > > ease.
> > >
> > > Â Bill not Bill!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Find what makes your heart sing…and do it!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > 
> > > From: Edgar Owen 
> > > To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > Sent: Sat, September 1, 2012 6:36:59 AM
> > > Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"
> > >
> > > Â
> > > Joe and Merle,
> > >
> > > There is no 'goal' of enlightenment to be achieved without 
which you imagine you

> > > are incompl

Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"

[Kristopher Grey]

Bowling in darkness
No one sees the pins set up
No one sees them fall

KG


On 9/2/2012 8:07 AM, Edgar Owen wrote:


Bill!


Completely wrong! That's the view that was rejected by the master who 
chose Hui Neng over the monk who claimed Zen was keeping the mirror 
free of dust


Read Hui Neng's poem again.

There is NO mirror that needs dusting to keep it clean.
There is NO bowl that needs to be washed!


Edgar



On Sep 2, 2012, at 7:51 AM, Bill! wrote:


A clean bowl is realization...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
<mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>, mike brown  wrote:

>
> Edgar,
>
> Exactly.
>
> Mike
>
>
>
> 
> From: Edgar Owen 
> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 12:35
> Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"
>
>
> Â
> Mike,
>
> Yes, the problem with these pithy 'in crowd' Zen sayings is that 
bowls can be washed WITHOUT realization just as they can be WITH 
realization...

>
> Edgar
>
>
>
>
> On Sep 2, 2012, at 6:19 AM, mike brown wrote:
>
> Â
> >
> >
> >Bill!,
> >
> >A great instruction, and is certainly direct, but Joshu's 
instructions were given to a monk who had probably been practicing 
meditation for a long time and was already 'ripe' for awakening to 
happen. Imagine how useful that instruction would be to a neophyte 
coming off the street asking about the search for truth or something 
similar. Joshu's instruction is just that - an instruction. That's 
why i believe Buddha's skilful means (upaya) is so useful as a 
teaching method. On the one side we can have the direct pointing to 
the Dharma (Zen) and on the other we can have Therevada Buddhism with 
it's more step by step instructions, such as following the Noble 
eightfold Path.

> >
> >The Buddha was very wise to understand that there are many 
different kinds of people/cultures/personalities etc. out there and 
no one method will work
> for all. I think it should be clear now that "wash you bowls" just 
isn't going to work for someone like ED. If you agree, what else 
could you say that might help him?

> >
> >Mike
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > From: Bill! 
> >To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>
> >Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 9:48
> >Subject: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"
> >
> >
> >Â
> >ED,
> >
> >Mind if Joshu and I jump in?
> >
> >"WASH YOUR BOWLS!" That's how...Bill! (and Joshu)
> >
> >--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
<mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>, "ED"  wrote:

> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Edgar,
> >>
> >> And how is this magic trick accomplished?
> >>
> >> --ED
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
<mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>, Edgar Owen  wrote:

> >> >
> >> > ED,
> >> >
> >> > Stop practicing and just BE your Buddha Nature!
> >> >
> >> > Edgar
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> > > Edgar,
> >> > >
> >> > > Therefore, although each of us is complete, we need to practice
> >> > > diligently at all times with no objective in mind?
> >> > >
> >> > > --ED
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> > > > Joe and Merle,
> >> > > >
> >> > > > There is no 'goal' of enlightenment to be achieved without 
which

> >> you
> >> > > imagine you are incomplete
> >> > > >
> >> > > > There is no incompleteness. This understanding is an essential
> >> aspect
> >> > > of realization...
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Wham!
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Edgar
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"

[Kristopher Grey]

"You're all clear, kid, now let's *blow* this thing and go home!"


On 9/2/2012 8:12 AM, mike brown wrote:

"That's not a moon - that's a space station".

Mike


*From:* Edgar Owen 
*To:* Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
*Sent:* Sunday, 2 September 2012, 13:04
*Subject:* Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"

MIke,

Those words are fingers providing directions to the landing pad to the 
moon.


EDgar



On Sep 2, 2012, at 7:46 AM, mike brown wrote:



Edgar,

Of course Realisation is not something that happens only inside 
monastry walls, but it also doesn't come from understanding words 
like "ontological" and "cognitive simulation model" either.


Mike



*From:* Edgar Owen mailto:edgaro...@att.net>>
*To:* Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com>
*Sent:* Sunday, 2 September 2012, 12:31
*Subject:* Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"

Mike,

There are certainly times it is, but that can happen at any time 
Realization is not just something that occurs inside monastery 
walls... It has nothing to do with that... It's just opening to 
reality and reality is everywhere...


Edgar



On Sep 2, 2012, at 5:57 AM, mike brown wrote:



Edgar,

Wouldn't you say tho, that reality is less obscured during, or just 
after, a long retreat of meditation?


Mike


*From:* Edgar Owen mailto:edgaro...@att.net>>
*To:* Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com>
*Sent:* Sunday, 2 September 2012, 1:13
*Subject:* Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"

Mike,

Well, it's reality either way, but that reality is always changing 
as happening continually flows through the present moment. But 
however it changes it is still reality


Edgar



On Sep 1, 2012, at 6:09 PM, mike brown wrote:



Edgar,

Would you say that the world (inner/outer) you look at now is the 
same as when you're at the end of a sesshin?


Mike



*From:* Edgar Owen mailto:edgaro...@att.net>>
*To:* Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com>
*Sent:* Saturday, 1 September 2012, 18:44
*Subject:* Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"

ED,

Stop practicing and just BE your Buddha Nature!

Edgar


On Sep 1, 2012, at 12:22 PM, ED wrote:




Edgar,

Therefore, although each of us is complete, we need to practice
diligently at all times with no objective in mind?

--ED

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
<mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>, Edgar Owen  
wrote:

>
> Joe and Merle,
>
> There is no 'goal' of enlightenment to be achieved without which you
imagine you are incomplete
>
> There is no incompleteness. This understanding is an essential 
aspect

of realization...
>
> Wham!
>
> Edgar

Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"

[Kristopher Grey]

This being so, how is this of any concern?

KG


On 9/2/2012 8:31 AM, Edgar Owen wrote:


Bill!


Completely wrong! That's the view that was rejected by the master who 
chose Hui Neng over the monk who claimed Zen was keeping the mirror 
free of dust


Read Hui Neng's poem again.

There is NO mirror that needs dusting to keep it clean.
There is NO bowl that needs to be washed!


Edgar



On Sep 2, 2012, at 7:51 AM, Bill! wrote:


A clean bowl is realization...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
<mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>, mike brown  wrote:

>
> Edgar,
>
> Exactly.
>
> Mike
>
>
>
> 
> From: Edgar Owen 
> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 12:35
> Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"
>
>
> Â
> Mike,
>
> Yes, the problem with these pithy 'in crowd' Zen sayings is that 
bowls can be washed WITHOUT realization just as they can be WITH 
realization...

>
> Edgar
>
>
>
>
> On Sep 2, 2012, at 6:19 AM, mike brown wrote:
>
> Â
> >
> >
> >Bill!,
> >
> >A great instruction, and is certainly direct, but Joshu's 
instructions were given to a monk who had probably been practicing 
meditation for a long time and was already 'ripe' for awakening to 
happen. Imagine how useful that instruction would be to a neophyte 
coming off the street asking about the search for truth or something 
similar. Joshu's instruction is just that - an instruction. That's 
why i believe Buddha's skilful means (upaya) is so useful as a 
teaching method. On the one side we can have the direct pointing to 
the Dharma (Zen) and on the other we can have Therevada Buddhism with 
it's more step by step instructions, such as following the Noble 
eightfold Path.

> >
> >The Buddha was very wise to understand that there are many 
different kinds of people/cultures/personalities etc. out there and 
no one method will work
> for all. I think it should be clear now that "wash you bowls" just 
isn't going to work for someone like ED. If you agree, what else 
could you say that might help him?

> >
> >Mike
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > From: Bill! 
> >To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>
> >Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 9:48
> >Subject: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"
> >
> >
> >Â
> >ED,
> >
> >Mind if Joshu and I jump in?
> >
> >"WASH YOUR BOWLS!" That's how...Bill! (and Joshu)
> >
> >--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
<mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>, "ED"  wrote:

> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Edgar,
> >>
> >> And how is this magic trick accomplished?
> >>
> >> --ED
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
<mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>, Edgar Owen  wrote:

> >> >
> >> > ED,
> >> >
> >> > Stop practicing and just BE your Buddha Nature!
> >> >
> >> > Edgar
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> > > Edgar,
> >> > >
> >> > > Therefore, although each of us is complete, we need to practice
> >> > > diligently at all times with no objective in mind?
> >> > >
> >> > > --ED
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> > > > Joe and Merle,
> >> > > >
> >> > > > There is no 'goal' of enlightenment to be achieved without 
which

> >> you
> >> > > imagine you are incomplete
> >> > > >
> >> > > > There is no incompleteness. This understanding is an essential
> >> aspect
> >> > > of realization...
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Wham!
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Edgar
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"

[Kristopher Grey]

On 9/2/2012 11:30 AM, ED wrote:
>
> PS: Why is the Zen forum brimming with ideation, thinking and chatter?
>

If you have to ask...  ;)




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Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"

[Kristopher Grey]

It's 'delusional' to 'believe' anything. Both are just different labels 
for various aspects of self-story (a conceptual re-ordering of 
appearances - or direct experiencing). Useful in that way.


Realization requires nothing, rejects nothing. Impersonal, incalculable, 
ineffable - infinitely simpler than whatever it makes itself out to be.


Starting places? This implies a finish line. How can you finish what you 
didn't start? Without beginning or end. Suchness.


KG


On 9/2/2012 11:53 AM, William Rintala wrote:
I understand what you are saying here, that our perception of reality 
is a logical outgrowth of our preconceptions, our starting places.  I 
balk at labeling it delusional. There are many paths to the same 
place. We can start with logic and say that 1+1=2 but is that true in 
all cases?  That 2 points in space define a straight line but is that 
always the case? Is it delusional to believe that?

Bill



Find what makes your heart sing…and do it!



*From:* Edgar Owen 
*To:* Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
*Sent:* Sun, September 2, 2012 7:25:59 AM
*Subject:* Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"

Mike,


Excellent question. I'll paraphrase it as 'how can delusional beliefs 
(illogical beliefs) be part of reality if reality (the world of forms) 
which includes everything is a logical structure'?


The short answer is that illogical beliefs must be taken in their 
greater context in which they become logical. For example if someone 
was raised in a fundamentalist Christian upbringing it is LOGICAL they 
will grow up with delusional beliefs. Those beliefs are the LOGICAL 
outcome of that upbringing... Same with Australian aborigines raised 
in their culture.


BTW I wasn't critical of people raised in delusion. Everyone is to 
some extent. I was critical of the delusions in question.


But realization requires correcting delusion. Only when delusion is 
corrected can realization take place...


To answer your last question. Chi is simply the internal feeling of 
the life force that everyone has. It IS direct experience of one's own 
being and one's relationship to the rest of reality. It's existence is 
self evident and with us directly experienced every moment of our lives.


As to spirit, depends on how you define it Different people define 
it different ways, some supernaturally, some as an equivalent term for 
Buddha Nature = Tao = ontological energy


Edgar





On Sep 2, 2012, at 8:11 AM, mike brown wrote:



Edgar,

Don't you contradict yourself here somewhat? You were previously 
critical of people from cultures where they may have a belief in 
dragons or rainbow serpents etc. Aren't these beliefs part of the 
Truth (Buddha Nature) as well then? Especially when they haven't had, 
or even when they have had, contact with contemporary science. If you 
believe in 'chi' energy, what's the difference in believing in 'spirit'?


Mike


*From:* Edgar Owen mailto:edgaro...@att.net>>
*To:* Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com>
*Sent:* Sunday, 2 September 2012, 13:00
*Subject:* Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"

Bill!

And that my friend is precisely the problem. Logic, like everything 
else that exists IS Buddha Nature. Because there is nothing that is 
NOT Buddha nature...


I think we've honed into the absolute kernel and crux of the 
disagreement right here ...


See what I'm saying?

You adopt a dualistic view by denying part of what exists is part of 
Buddha Nature.
I point out there is no such dualism because everything that exists 
is part of reality (Buddha Nature) by definition, including things 
such as logic and your daily life using logic making a living, that 
you deny is part of Buddha Nature.



This is the MOST IMPORTANT post of mine to Bill! ever! I only hope 
this will be a super Kwatz moment and that Bill! won't try to avoid 
and ignore the koan as usual


Edgar




On Sep 2, 2012, at 7:32 AM, Bill! wrote:


Edgar,

Sometimes I think you don't read my posts.

I NEVER said I don't use logic. I use it all the time. I make my 
living using it. I don't however mistake logic for Buddha Nature.


...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
<mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>, Edgar Owen  wrote:

>
> Bill!,
>
> Proving Bill! still uses his considerable intelligence to 
negotiate the rational world of forms contrary to what he claims and 
would have us believe 

> :-)
>
> Edgar
>
>
>
> On Sep 2, 2012, at 4:46 AM, Bill! wrote:
>
> > Bill,
> >
> > I've had a lot of practice trying to follow Edgar's posts. I'm 
sure you'll get the hang of it sooner or

Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"

[Kristopher Grey]

Self appears/is born. No-self doesn't appear/is unborn. Realize these 
are but aspects of mind, no difference.


KG


On 9/2/2012 12:05 PM, mike brown wrote:

Kris,

Very good! You must have given that a lot of thought ; )

>Self can be found nowhere else

Of course. Self/Buddha Nature/Awareness is unborn (and therefore never 
dies) and so is ever present regardless of what we are thinking/doing. 
But suffering arises when we think there is an independent 'I' having 
those thoughts. That we have this Realisation is the difference. How 
this Realisation manifests is unimportant. For some it will be sudden 
for others gradual. But you're correct that Self alwaysis.


Mke


*From:* Kristopher Grey 
*To:* Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
*Sent:* Sunday, 2 September 2012, 15:42
*Subject:* Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"

On 9/2/2012 7:05 AM, mike brown wrote:
> But if you do find yourself thinking, just come back gently to the 
breath.


A tri-ku for you:

With each rise and fall
The breath is grasped and released
Each, a birth and death

Immersed in thinking
Self can be found nowhere else
Always lost in thought

Mind, a stream of thought
Following, or flowing by
The way, like water

Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"

[Kristopher Grey]

Then you still know too much. ;)

If it so clear as that, there is nothing to see. The 'obscuration' all 
that may show the way. What you are seeing as separate only appears to 
be. All a matter of how you see it. So who is leading who? Who suffers? 
In seeking perfection, it forever eludes.


The clear minded are equally empty headed. Don't throw the Buddha out 
with the bathwater.


KG

PS - Expresses simpler/more obviously wordlessly - see: 'Wabi Sabi' - 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wabi-sabi




On 9/2/2012 12:32 PM, mike brown wrote:

Kris,

>I might point out that apparent obscuration is no less reality than 
apparent clarity


Reality is certainly there regardless, but reality seen with 
obscuration leads to suffering, whereas reality seen with clarity will 
lead to the cessation of suffering. That's all I need to know and that 
is my witness.


Mike


*From:* Kristopher Grey 
*To:* Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
*Sent:* Sunday, 2 September 2012, 16:11
*Subject:* Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"

I might point out that apparent obscuration is no less reality than 
apparent clarity. In doing so, this point only dances around itself - 
offers nothing you can't realize directly.


What can anyone say in response that you will not directly experience 
(realize) as some aspect of this reality/realization- whether you 
realize it or not - just as when experiencing meditation/not meditation?


This more or less business is you triangulating your position. Nothing 
more, nothing less.


KG



On 9/2/2012 5:57 AM, mike brown wrote:

Edgar,

Wouldn't you say tho, that reality is less obscured during, or just 
after, a long retreat of meditation?


Mike


*From:* Edgar Owen  <mailto:edgaro...@att.net>
*To:* Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com>
*Sent:* Sunday, 2 September 2012, 1:13
*Subject:* Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"

Mike,

Well, it's reality either way, but that reality is always changing as 
happening continually flows through the present moment. But however 
it changes it is still reality


Edgar



On Sep 1, 2012, at 6:09 PM, mike brown wrote:



Edgar,

Would you say that the world (inner/outer) you look at now is the 
same as when you're at the end of a sesshin?


Mike



*From:* Edgar Owen mailto:edgaro...@att.net>>
*To:* Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com>
*Sent:* Saturday, 1 September 2012, 18:44
*Subject:* Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"

ED,

Stop practicing and just BE your Buddha Nature!

Edgar


On Sep 1, 2012, at 12:22 PM, ED wrote:




Edgar,

Therefore, although each of us is complete, we need to practice
diligently at all times with no objective in mind?

--ED

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
<mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>, Edgar Owen  
<mailto:edgarowen@...> wrote:

>
> Joe and Merle,
>
> There is no 'goal' of enlightenment to be achieved without which you
imagine you are incomplete
>
> There is no incompleteness. This understanding is an essential aspect
of realization...
>
> Wham!
>
> Edgar

Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"

[Kristopher Grey]

So it appears. Seen, said, heard. Same. Suchness.

KG

On 9/2/2012 1:26 PM, mike brown wrote:

Kris,

>"Don't know" (Which only appears to be a pithy zen saying when seen so)

Or said so.

Mike


*From:* Kristopher Grey 
*To:* Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
*Sent:* Sunday, 2 September 2012, 16:14
*Subject:* Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"

With or without. Why decide?

"Don't know" (Which only appears to be a pithy zen saying when seen so)

KG

On 9/2/2012 7:46 AM, mike brown wrote:

Edgar,

Of course Realisation is not something that happens only inside 
monastry walls, but it also doesn't come from understanding words 
like "ontological" and "cognitive simulation model" either.


Mike



*From:* Edgar Owen  <mailto:edgaro...@att.net>
*To:* Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com>
*Sent:* Sunday, 2 September 2012, 12:31
*Subject:* Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"

Mike,

There are certainly times it is, but that can happen at any time 
Realization is not just something that occurs inside monastery 
walls... It has nothing to do with that... It's just opening to 
reality and reality is everywhere...


Edgar



On Sep 2, 2012, at 5:57 AM, mike brown wrote:



Edgar,

Wouldn't you say tho, that reality is less obscured during, or just 
after, a long retreat of meditation?


Mike


*From:* Edgar Owen mailto:edgaro...@att.net>>
*To:* Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com>
*Sent:* Sunday, 2 September 2012, 1:13
*Subject:* Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"

Mike,

Well, it's reality either way, but that reality is always changing 
as happening continually flows through the present moment. But 
however it changes it is still reality


Edgar



On Sep 1, 2012, at 6:09 PM, mike brown wrote:



Edgar,

Would you say that the world (inner/outer) you look at now is the 
same as when you're at the end of a sesshin?


Mike



*From:* Edgar Owen mailto:edgaro...@att.net>>
*To:* Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com>
*Sent:* Saturday, 1 September 2012, 18:44
*Subject:* Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"

ED,

Stop practicing and just BE your Buddha Nature!

Edgar


On Sep 1, 2012, at 12:22 PM, ED wrote:




Edgar,

Therefore, although each of us is complete, we need to practice
diligently at all times with no objective in mind?

--ED

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
<mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>, Edgar Owen  
<mailto:edgarowen@...> wrote:

>
> Joe and Merle,
>
> There is no 'goal' of enlightenment to be achieved without which you
imagine you are incomplete
>
> There is no incompleteness. This understanding is an essential 
aspect

of realization...
>
> Wham!
>
> Edgar

Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"

[Chris Austin-Lane]

Just washing with nothing added is realization. Rice bowl, laundry,kids,
body, or bad habits, all same same.

--Chris
On Sep 2, 2012 4:35 AM, "Edgar Owen"  wrote:

>
>
> Mike,
>
> Yes, the problem with these pithy 'in crowd' Zen sayings is that bowls can
> be washed WITHOUT realization just as they can be WITH realization...
>
> Edgar
>
>
>
> On Sep 2, 2012, at 6:19 AM, mike brown wrote:
>
>
>
> Bill!,
>
> A great instruction, and is certainly direct, but Joshu's instructions
> were given to a monk who had probably been practicing meditation for a long
> time and was already 'ripe' for awakening to happen. Imagine how useful
> that instruction would be to a neophyte coming off the street asking about
> the search for truth or something similar. Joshu's instruction is just that
> - an instruction. That's why i believe Buddha's skilful means (upaya) is so
> useful as a teaching method. On the one side we can have the direct
> pointing to the Dharma (Zen) and on the other we can have Therevada
> Buddhism with it's more step by step instructions, such as following the
> Noble eightfold Path.
>
> The Buddha was very wise to understand that there are many different kinds
> of people/cultures/personalities etc. out there and no one method will work
> for all. I think it should be clear now that "wash you bowls" just isn't
> going to work for someone like ED. If you agree, what else could you say
> that might help him?
>
> Mike
>
>
>   --
> *From:* Bill! 
> *To:* Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> *Sent:* Sunday, 2 September 2012, 9:48
> *Subject:* [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"
>
>
> ED,
>
> Mind if Joshu and I jump in?
>
> "WASH YOUR BOWLS!" That's how...Bill! (and Joshu)
>
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "ED"  wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > Edgar,
> >
> > And how is this magic trick accomplished?
> >
> > --ED
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen  wrote:
> > >
> > > ED,
> > >
> > > Stop practicing and just BE your Buddha Nature!
> > >
> > > Edgar
> >
> >
> >
> > > > Edgar,
> > > >
> > > > Therefore, although each of us is complete, we need to practice
> > > > diligently at all times with no objective in mind?
> > > >
> > > > --ED
> >
> >
> >
> > > > > Joe and Merle,
> > > > >
> > > > > There is no 'goal' of enlightenment to be achieved without which
> > you
> > > > imagine you are incomplete
> > > > >
> > > > > There is no incompleteness. This understanding is an essential
> > aspect
> > > > of realization...
> > > > >
> > > > > Wham!
> > > > >
> > > > > Edgar
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> 

Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"

[Chris Austin-Lane]

This day it is the annotated Zen Forum.
On Sep 2, 2012 4:05 AM, "mike brown"  wrote:

>
>
> Bill!,
>
> Isn't it the Zen Buddhist Forum, at least by implication? Isn't it fair
> to talk about comparisons?
>
> >ED, Just sit. Don't think. Just sit.
>
> But if you do find yourself thinking, just come back gently to the breath.
> When you find your mind has become calm become mindful of how the breath
> (or any bodily sensations) arises and passes. How it is that there is no
> 'you' doing the breathing - rather the universe is breathing 'you'. Note
> how even pleasant sensations eventually pass and more unpleasant, or
> neutral, sensations take their place. With such mindfulness you may find
> you gain some insight into the 3 Characteristics of existence:
> impermanence, non-self, and the unsatisfactoriness of phenomena. With
> diligence and patience, you may become liberated from suffering.
>
> Not exactly pithy, I admit. And Zen is certainly direct in pointing to our
> True Nature. But "wash your bowls", "just sit" and "Just This!" is also not
> 'it' either. So if we're going to have instructions/guides, then there is
> definitely a place for more descriptive ones (even tho the endgame will
> always be that they are ultimately dropped). The method is NOT the
> meditation.
>
>
> Mike
>
>   --
> *From:* Bill! 
> *To:* Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> *Sent:* Sunday, 2 September 2012, 11:33
> *Subject:* [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"
>
>
> Mike, Point taken, but this is the Zen Forum, not the Theravada Forum or
> the Here-Have-Some-More-Rice-Gruel Forum.
>
> ED, Just sit. Don't think. Just sit.
>
> ...Bill!
>
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown  wrote:
> >
> > Bill!,
> >
> > A great instruction, and is certainly direct, but Joshu's instructions
> were given to a monk who had probably been practicing meditation for a long
> time and was already 'ripe' for awakening to happen. Imagine how useful
> that instruction would be to a neophyte coming off the street asking about
> the search for truth or something similar. Joshu's instruction is just that
> - an instruction. That's why i believe Buddha's skilful means (upaya) is so
> useful as a teaching method. On the one side we can have the direct
> pointing to the Dharma (Zen) and on the other we can have Therevada
> Buddhism with it's more step by step instructions, such as following the
> Noble eightfold Path.
> >
> > The Buddha was very wise to understand that there are many different
> kinds of people/cultures/personalities etc. out there and no one method
> will work for all. I think it should be clear now that "wash you bowls"
> just isn't going to work for someone like ED. If you agree, what else could
> you say that might help him?
> >
> > Mike
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > 
> > From: Bill! 
> > To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 9:48
> > Subject: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"
> >
> >
> > Â
> > ED,
> >
> > Mind if Joshu and I jump in?
> >
> > "WASH YOUR BOWLS!" That's how...Bill! (and Joshu)
> >
> > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "ED"  wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Edgar,
> > >
> > > And how is this magic trick accomplished?
> > >
> > > --ED
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen  wrote:
> > > >
> > > > ED,
> > > >
> > > > Stop practicing and just BE your Buddha Nature!
> > > >
> > > > Edgar
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > > Edgar,
> > > > >
> > > > > Therefore, although each of us is complete, we need to practice
> > > > > diligently at all times with no objective in mind?
> > > > >
> > > > > --ED
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > > > Joe and Merle,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > There is no 'goal' of enlightenment to be achieved without which
> > > you
> > > > > imagine you are incomplete
> > > > > >
> > > > > > There is no incompleteness. This understanding is an essential
> > > aspect
> > > > > of realization...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Wham!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Edgar
> > >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> 

Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"

[mike brown]

Kris,

Don't we come here with the tacit understanding that any words used here cannot 
capture the ineffable? I think you know exactly what I mean, you rascal. 


Mike







 From: Kristopher Grey 
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 20:11
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"
 

  
Self appears/is born. No-self doesn't appear/is unborn. Realize these are but 
aspects of mind, no difference.

KG


On 9/2/2012 12:05 PM, mike brown wrote:

  
>Kris,
>
>
>Very good! You must have given that a lot of thought ; )
>
>
>>Self can be found nowhere else
>
>
>Of course. Self/Buddha Nature/Awareness is unborn (and therefore never dies) 
>and so is ever present regardless of what we are thinking/doing. But suffering 
>arises when we think there is an independent 'I' having those thoughts. That 
>we have this Realisation is the difference. How this Realisation manifests is 
>unimportant. For some it will be sudden for others gradual. But you're correct 
>that Self alwaysis. 
>
>
>Mke
>
>
>
>
>
> From: Kristopher Grey 
>To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
>Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 15:42
>Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"
> 
>
>  
>On 9/2/2012 7:05 AM, mike brown wrote:
>> But if you do find yourself thinking,
  just come back gently to the breath.
>
>A tri-ku for you:
>
>With each rise and fall
>The breath is grasped and released
>Each, a birth and death
>
>Immersed in thinking
>Self can be found nowhere else
>Always lost in thought
>
>Mind, a stream of thought
>Following, or flowing by
>The way, like water
>
>
>

 

Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"

[mike brown]

Kris,

There is no one who suffers, but only after the realisation that there isn't 
even a mind for suffering to happen to is there liberation from it. "Clarity" 
here reads as insight.

Mike




 From: Kristopher Grey 
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 20:23
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"
 

  
Then you still know too much. ;)

If it so clear as that, there is nothing to see. The 'obscuration'
  all that may show the way. What you are seeing as separate only
  appears to be. All a matter of how you see it. So who is leading
  who? Who suffers? In seeking perfection, it forever eludes.

The clear minded are equally empty headed. Don't throw the Buddha
  out with the bathwater.

KG

PS - Expresses simpler/more obviously wordlessly - see: 'Wabi
  Sabi' - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wabi-sabi



On 9/2/2012 12:32 PM, mike brown wrote:

  
>Kris,
>
>
>>I might point out that apparent obscuration is no less reality than apparent 
>>clarity
>
>Reality is certainly there regardless, but reality seen
  with obscuration leads to suffering, whereas reality seen
  with clarity will lead to the cessation of suffering.
  That's all I need to know and that is my witness.  
>
>Mike 
>
>
>
>
> From: Kristopher Grey 
>To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
>Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 16:11
>Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"
> 
>
>  
>I might point out that apparent obscuration is no less reality than apparent 
>clarity. In doing so, this point only dances around itself - offers nothing 
>you can't realize directly.
>
>What can anyone say in response that you will
  not directly experience (realize) as some
  aspect of this reality/realization- whether
  you realize it or not - just as when
  experiencing meditation/not meditation?
>
>This more or less business is you
  triangulating your position. Nothing more,
  nothing less.
>
>KG
>
>
>
>On 9/2/2012 5:57 AM, mike brown wrote:
>
>  
>>Edgar,
>>
>>
>>Wouldn't you say tho, that reality is less obscured during, or just after, a 
>>long retreat of meditation?
>>
>>
>>Mike
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> From: Edgar Owen 
>>To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
>>Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 1:13
>>Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"
>> 
>>
>>  
>>Mike,
>>
>>
>>Well, it's reality either way, but that reality is always changing as 
>>happening continually flows through the present moment. But however it 
>>changes it is still reality
>>
>>
>>Edgar
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>On Sep 1, 2012, at 6:09 PM, mike brown wrote:
>>
>>  
>>>
>>>
>>>Edgar,
>>>
>>>
>>>Would you say that the world (inner/outer) you look at now is the same as 
>>>when you're at the end of a sesshin? 
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Mike
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> From: Edgar Owen 
>>>To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
>>>Sent: Saturday, 1 September 2012, 18:44
>>>Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils"
>>> 
>>>
>>>  
>>>ED,
>>>
>>>
>>>Stop practicing and just BE your Buddha Nature!
>>>
>>>
>>>Edgar
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>On Sep 1, 2012, at 12:22 PM, ED wrote:
>>>
>>>  
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Edgar,
>>>>
>>>>Therefore,
  although each
  of us is
  complete, we
  need to
  practice
>>>>diligently at
  all times with
  no objective
  in mind?
>>>>
>>>>--ED
>>>>
>>>>--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen  wrot