Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils
Hi JM, That is true of course but the problem is getting to that point. The discussions on this group are mostly about how to get to that point. They are about how reality = Buddha Nature manifests in the world of forms rather than about its formless essential nature. And about finding the path to that essential nature when you are NOT YET there The would and could be nothing to say about the formless essential nature to express it directly and if the discussion were only about that there would be no discussion, and no group. Best, Edgar On Sep 5, 2012, at 4:47 PM, 覺妙精明 （JMJM） wrote: Hi Bill, Any kind of insistence or resistance is a sign of ego, meaning attachment to dharma. We can all learn from these postings, because we can interpret it from both directions. This is Chan -- midway yet accepting all without judgment or discrimination. Diamond Sutra said it so clearly, Dharma contains no dharma. No Dharma is Dharma. Yet there are still insistence to what is Zen, what is zen, and what is not, what I believe, or I disagree... :-( When we are locked by logic, words, or phrases, the key to unlock it is to awaken from within. And that's an internal process, no outsiders can help. Buddha called it delusion, or driven by karma. My teacher call this kind of practice - practicing with our brain. :-) jm On 9/5/2012 12:48 PM, William Rintala wrote: Just an observation here. It is so hard to determine what is meant by what is written in emails. I percieve stress in this last exchange, frustration, almost anger but then what was meant might be simply gentle prodding or poking. Years ago I was involved in an email exchange regarding an issue at the hospital where I worked. I responded to a query by asking What is it about this issue that concerns you? It was reported to my supervisor and I was asked to make a face to face apology. When I realized that what I was asking could be taken negatively I was horrified and I've never trusted email since. I don't know where it fits in Zen but Love one another needs to be there somewhere. Otherwise you end up punching yourself in the face. Bill not Bill! Find what makes your heart sing…and do it! From: Kristopher Grey k...@kgrey.com To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, September 4, 2012 1:12:29 AM Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils On 9/3/2012 6:46 PM, mike brown wrote: I think you have a very shallow idea about what vipassana is. Doesn't matter a wit if I do or don't - but since you keep dragging your cushion around for me to see: FWIW I don't think it's zoning out at all (though some will use it that way). It's also not like you invented it, or it's a big secret. Do you get a discount, or good karma, for mentioning it? ;) No matter what I express, you come back to you own assumptions about what I think - mostly involving some perceived attack on your practice. This makes one of us appears shallow, and the other appear simple minded. You can choose which is which. Any practice can be an escape - or retreat if you prefer. Why do you think people organize/attend those? Some find it helpful to disengage in that way. Creating greater contrast between self-awareness and autopilot, until that sort of in/out of awareness structure implodes. The house of cards you mentioned. Then 'practice' opens up. My concern is with the user, not the practices used. With what they think they are fixing, or what fix they are getting from it. A not so subtle difference. There is a similar difference to how you and I are using the term 'mindfulness'. What you describe I might call a basic sense of self-awareness. A sort of 'witnessing' with/as a conscience. This can be developed, as it is still 'ordinary mind' (clearly not all have the same capacities in this regard, and it appears to come and go, etc.). If something you do then it's a form of mindfulness training, which is still ordinary mind training (while such a distinction makes sense anyway) and will serve as long as you still have ordinary uses for it (meaning you are still alive/functioning). Catching and getting control of the ox. The higher and lower self business of other traditions. The conflicted animal and godlike natures of man. Fortunately, even this division can be seen as false. Short of that, much personal struggle appears. All is seen through that lens. Anyway, my point was not - despite your well intentioned but unnecessary defenses/efforts to skew them as such - a criticism of your practice. I was simply noting the way you appear to differentiate practice from other experiences, maybe attaching some significance in the process that reinforces this. How this is can be 'counterproductive', yet is also an integral aspect of any practice, an aspect of what the practice reveals, what is carried to all other
Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils
Bill! Right! Zen is not about coddling each other's illusions. It's about ruthlessly exposing them. The person that is open to Zen attains realization when his/her illusions are exposed while the person who is not open will react defensively. People often tend to cherish their delusions as if they were essential parts of themselves, and thus often react with hostility when those illusions are challenged. The worst illusion of all is thinking YOU ARE your attachments, that they are an essential part of your personality and that your 'youness' would be lost without them! WRONG! The true self is emptiness only! It depends on nothing for its existence Being continually empty it is continuously filled I love having my illusions and attachments exposed because ONLY THUS can I recognize and transcend them... Reality in various ways has a habit of doing just that! And a lifetime of experience has zapped plenty of my illusions by continually confronting me with them... Every moment of reality is a Zen moment through which we may either further recognize and release our attachments or become more deeply mired within them! Edgar On Sep 5, 2012, at 11:32 PM, Bill! wrote: Bill, How about 'Tough Love one another'...? --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, William Rintala brintala@... wrote: Just an observation here. It is so hard to determine what is meant by what is written in emails. I percieve stress in this last exchange, frustration, almost anger but then what was meant might be simply gentle prodding or poking. Years ago I was involved in an email exchange regarding an issue at the hospital where I worked. I responded to a query by asking What is it about this issue that concerns you? It was reported to my supervisor and I was asked to make a face to face apology. When I realized that what I was asking could be taken negatively I was horrified and I've never trusted email since. I don't know where it fits in Zen but Love one another needs to be there somewhere. Otherwise you end up punching yourself in the face.  Bill not Bill! Find what makes your heart sing…and do it! From: Kristopher Grey kris@... To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, September 4, 2012 1:12:29 AM Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils  On 9/3/2012 6:46 PM, mike brown wrote: I think you have a very shallow idea about what vipassana is. Doesn't matter a wit if I do or don't - but since you keep dragging your cushion around for me to see: FWIW I don't think it's zoning out at all (though some will use it that way). It's also not like you invented it, or it's a big secret. Do you get a discount, or good karma, for mentioning it? ;) No matter what I express, you come back to you own assumptions about what I think - mostly involving some perceived attack on your practice. This makes one of us appears shallow, and the other appear simple minded. You can choose which is which. Any practice can be an escape - or retreat if you prefer. Why do you think people organize/attend those? Some find it helpful to disengage in that way. Creating greater contrast between self-awareness and autopilot, until that sort of in/out of awareness structure implodes. The house of cards you mentioned. Then 'practice' opens up. My concern is with the user, not the practices used. With what they think they are fixing, or what fix they are getting from it. A not so subtle difference. There is a similar difference to how you and I are using the term 'mindfulness'. What you describe I might call a basic sense of self-awareness. A sort of 'witnessing' with/as a conscience. This can be developed, as it is still 'ordinary mind' (clearly not all have the same capacities in this regard, and it appears to come and go, etc.). If something you do then it's a form of mindfulness training, which is still ordinary mind training (while such a distinction makes sense anyway) and will serve as long as you still have ordinary uses for it (meaning you are still alive/functioning). Catching and getting control of the ox. The higher and lower self business of other traditions. The conflicted animal and godlike natures of man. Fortunately, even this division can be seen as false. Short of that, much personal struggle appears. All is seen through that lens. Anyway, my point was not - despite your well intentioned but unnecessary defenses/efforts to skew them as such - a criticism of your practice. I was simply noting the way you appear to differentiate practice from other experiences, maybe attaching some significance in the process that reinforces this. How this is can be 'counterproductive', yet is also an integral aspect of any practice, an aspect of what the practice
Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils
Hi Edgar, Valid point. Some of us are still on the cushion, talking cushion talk. Some of us are already into the mud and absorbing. Some of us are mesmerized by fancy zen wonderland. These three domains intersect very little. :-) Each of us are where we are due to some causes, and each cause is caused by generation of more causes. My teacher said, Chan practice begins after we realize that we are enslaved by our mind. jm On 9/6/2012 4:51 AM, Edgar Owen wrote: Hi JM, That is true of course but the problem is getting to that point. The discussions on this group are mostly about how to get to that point. They are about how reality = Buddha Nature manifests in the world of forms rather than about its formless essential nature. And about finding the path to that essential nature when you are NOT YET there The would and could be nothing to say about the formless essential nature to express it directly and if the discussion were only about that there would be no discussion, and no group. Best, Edgar On Sep 5, 2012, at 4:47 PM, 覺妙精明 （JMJM） wrote: Hi Bill, Any kind of insistence or resistance is a sign of ego, meaning attachment to dharma. We can all learn from these postings, because we can interpret it from both directions. This is Chan -- midway yet accepting all without judgment or discrimination. Diamond Sutra said it so clearly, Dharma contains no dharma. No Dharma is Dharma. Yet there are still insistence to what is Zen, what is zen, and what is not, what I believe, or I disagree... :-( When we are locked by logic, words, or phrases, the key to unlock it is to awaken from within. And that's an internal process, no outsiders can help. Buddha called it delusion, or driven by karma. My teacher call this kind of practice - practicing with our brain. :-) jm On 9/5/2012 12:48 PM, William Rintala wrote: Just an observation here. It is so hard to determine what is meant by what is written in emails. I percieve stress in this last exchange, frustration, almost anger but then what was meant might be simply gentle prodding or poking. Years ago I was involved in an email exchange regarding an issue at the hospital where I worked. I responded to a query by asking What is it about this issue that concerns you? It was reported to my supervisor and I was asked to make a face to face apology. When I realized that what I was asking could be taken negatively I was horrified and I've never trusted email since. I don't know where it fits in Zen but Love one another needs to be there somewhere. Otherwise you end up punching yourself in the face. Bill not Bill! Find what makes your heart sing…and do it! *From:* Kristopher Grey k...@kgrey.com *To:* Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com *Sent:* Tue, September 4, 2012 1:12:29 AM *Subject:* Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils On 9/3/2012 6:46 PM, mike brown wrote: I think you have a very shallow idea about what vipassana is. Doesn't matter a wit if I do or don't - but since you keep dragging your cushion around for me to see: FWIW I don't think it's zoning out at all (though some will use it that way). It's also not like you invented it, or it's a big secret. Do you get a discount, or good karma, for mentioning it? ;) No matter what I express, you come back to you own assumptions about what I think - mostly involving some perceived attack on your practice. This makes one of us appears shallow, and the other appear simple minded. You can choose which is which. Any practice can be an escape - or retreat if you prefer. Why do you think people organize/attend those? Some find it helpful to disengage in that way. Creating greater contrast between self-awareness and autopilot, until that sort of in/out of awareness structure implodes. The house of cards you mentioned. Then 'practice' opens up. My concern is with the user, not the practices used. With what they think they are fixing, or what fix they are getting from it. A not so subtle difference. There is a similar difference to how you and I are using the term 'mindfulness'. What you describe I might call a basic sense of self-awareness. A sort of 'witnessing' with/as a conscience. This can be developed, as it is still 'ordinary mind' (clearly not all have the same capacities in this regard, and it appears to come and go, etc.). If something you do then it's a form of mindfulness training, which is still ordinary mind training (while such a distinction makes sense anyway) and will serve as long as you still have ordinary uses for it (meaning you are still alive/functioning). Catching and getting control of the ox. The higher and lower self business of other traditions. The conflicted animal and godlike natures of man. Fortunately, even this division can be seen as false. Short of that, much personal struggle appears. All is seen through that lens. Anyway, my point
Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils
On 9/6/2012 8:39 AM, Edgar Owen wrote: Zen is not about coddling each other's illusions. It's about ruthlessly exposing them as our own. How else can we see them? KG Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils
knowing..you know...merle Know what Merle? Know what? What meaning are you giving those words? It is a koan of sorts, a line written for a song never finished... KG On 9/4/2012 3:34 AM, Merle Lester wrote: how do you know KG? Merle On 9/3/2012 5:31 PM, Merle Lester wrote: that's when zen is most needed mike...to get you through the day...merle Zen Angels preaching Zen Demons cursing No one hears any of it KG
Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils
it is language. a picture speaks a thousand words. .to express that which a thousand million words can never say merle Why do you paint? KG On 9/4/2012 3:34 AM, Merle Lester wrote: how do you know KG? Merle On 9/3/2012 5:31 PM, Merle Lester wrote: that's when zen is most needed mike...to get you through the day...merle Zen Angels preaching Zen Demons cursing No one hears any of it KG
Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils
Just an observation here. It is so hard to determine what is meant by what is written in emails. I percieve stress in this last exchange, frustration, almost anger but then what was meant might be simply gentle prodding or poking. Years ago I was involved in an email exchange regarding an issue at the hospital where I worked. I responded to a query by asking What is it about this issue that concerns you? It was reported to my supervisor and I was asked to make a face to face apology. When I realized that what I was asking could be taken negatively I was horrified and I've never trusted email since. I don't know where it fits in Zen but Love one another needs to be there somewhere. Otherwise you end up punching yourself in the face. Bill not Bill! Find what makes your heart sing…and do it! From: Kristopher Grey k...@kgrey.com To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, September 4, 2012 1:12:29 AM Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils On 9/3/2012 6:46 PM, mike brown wrote: I think you have a very shallow idea about what vipassana is. Doesn't matter a wit if I do or don't - but since you keep dragging your cushion around for me to see: FWIW I don't think it's zoning out at all (though some will use it that way). It's also not like you invented it, or it's a big secret. Do you get a discount, or good karma, for mentioning it? ;) No matter what I express, you come back to you own assumptions about what I think - mostly involving some perceived attack on your practice. This makes one of us appears shallow, and the other appear simple minded. You can choose which is which. Any practice can be an escape - or retreat if you prefer. Why do you think people organize/attend those? Some find it helpful to disengage in that way. Creating greater contrast between self-awareness and autopilot, until that sort of in/out of awareness structure implodes. The house of cards you mentioned. Then 'practice' opens up. My concern is with the user, not the practices used. With what they think they are fixing, or what fix they are getting from it. A not so subtle difference. There is a similar difference to how you and I are using the term 'mindfulness'. What you describe I might call a basic sense of self-awareness. A sort of 'witnessing' with/as a conscience. This can be developed, as it is still 'ordinary mind' (clearly not all have the same capacities in this regard, and it appears to come and go, etc.). If something you do then it's a form of mindfulness training, which is still ordinary mind training (while such a distinction makes sense anyway) and will serve as long as you still have ordinary uses for it (meaning you are still alive/functioning). Catching and getting control of the ox. The higher and lower self business of other traditions. The conflicted animal and godlike natures of man. Fortunately, even this division can be seen as false. Short of that, much personal struggle appears. All is seen through that lens. Anyway, my point was not - despite your well intentioned but unnecessary defenses/efforts to skew them as such - a criticism of your practice. I was simply noting the way you appear to differentiate practice from other experiences, maybe attaching some significance in the process that reinforces this. How this is can be 'counterproductive', yet is also an integral aspect of any practice, an aspect of what the practice reveals, what is carried to all other experiences... what has always simply been this experiencing... Tomorrow, remind me to stick to one liners and crappy neo-haiku. Still reeks of rotting flesh, but less dead bones for zen dogs to sniff at/snarl over. KG PS - Equanimity is not a a lack of personality, or invariability of reactions to what arises. No stone Buddha! Cranky was simply my acknowledgement of what was presenting. Redirected energies, responding differently to different stimuli/situations. I see no need wasting more energy pretending to be this or that, unless I do. Something I used to do to manipulate myself and others, I now only do if it aids interactions with others. Looks the same.
Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils
Bill, You're quite correct in reminding us about the dangers of communicating by email. Body language is a huge part of communicating, even more so than the words spoken or heard. However, I don't think see any anger in Kris' posts to me at all because he knows I'm always right about everything and that he's a complete dick. I think he secretly wishes he was me. True story. Mike From: William Rintala brint...@bellsouth.net To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, 5 September 2012, 20:48 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils Just an observation here. It is so hard to determine what is meant by what is written in emails. I percieve stress in this last exchange, frustration, almost anger but then what was meant might be simply gentle prodding or poking. Years ago I was involved in an email exchange regarding an issue at the hospital where I worked. I responded to a query by asking What is it about this issue that concerns you? It was reported to my supervisor and I was asked to make a face to face apology. When I realized that what I was asking could be taken negatively I was horrified and I've never trusted email since. I don't know where it fits in Zen but Love one another needs to be there somewhere. Otherwise you end up punching yourself in the face. Bill not Bill! Find what makes your heart sing…and do it! From: Kristopher Grey k...@kgrey.com To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, September 4, 2012 1:12:29 AM Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils On 9/3/2012 6:46 PM, mike brown wrote: I think you have a very shallow idea about what vipassana is. Doesn't matter a wit if I do or don't - but since you keep dragging your cushion around for me to see: FWIW I don't think it's zoning out at all (though some will use it that way). It's also not like you invented it, or it's a big secret. Do you get a discount, or good karma, for mentioning it? ;) No matter what I express, you come back to you own assumptions about what I think - mostly involving some perceived attack on your practice. This makes one of us appears shallow, and the other appear simple minded. You can choose which is which. Any practice can be an escape - or retreat if you prefer. Why do you think people organize/attend those? Some find it helpful to disengage in that way. Creating greater contrast between self-awareness and autopilot, until that sort of in/out of awareness structure implodes. The house of cards you mentioned. Then 'practice' opens up. My concern is with the user, not the practices used. With what they think they are fixing, or what fix they are getting from it. A not so subtle difference. There is a similar difference to how you and I are using the term 'mindfulness'. What you describe I might call a basic sense of self-awareness. A sort of 'witnessing' with/as a conscience. This can be developed, as it is still 'ordinary mind' (clearly not all have the same capacities in this regard, and it appears to come and go, etc.). If something you do then it's a form of mindfulness training, which is still ordinary mind training (while such a distinction makes sense anyway) and will serve as long as you still have ordinary uses for it (meaning you are still alive/functioning). Catching and getting control of the ox. The higher and lower self business of other traditions. The conflicted animal and godlike natures of man. Fortunately, even this division can be seen as false. Short of that, much personal struggle appears. All is seen through that lens. Anyway, my point was not - despite your well intentioned but unnecessary defenses/efforts to skew them as such - a criticism of your practice. I was simply noting the way you appear to differentiate practice from other experiences, maybe attaching some significance in the process that reinforces this. How this is can be 'counterproductive', yet is also an integral aspect of any practice, an aspect of what the practice reveals, what is carried to all other experiences... what has always simply been this experiencing... Tomorrow, remind me to stick to one liners and crappy neo-haiku. Still reeks of rotting flesh, but less dead bones for zen dogs to sniff at/snarl over. KG PS - Equanimity is not a a lack of personality, or invariability of reactions to what arises. No stone Buddha! Cranky was simply my acknowledgement of what was presenting. Redirected energies, responding differently to different stimuli/situations. I see no need wasting more energy pretending to be this or that, unless I do. Something I used to do to manipulate myself and others, I now only do if it aids interactions with others. Looks the same.
Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils
Email is best at short factual communication. Zen is traditionally taught face to face with the meat being non-verbal, and the whole thing not being about facts. It is a tense relationship. On Sep 5, 2012 12:48 PM, William Rintala brint...@bellsouth.net wrote: Just an observation here. It is so hard to determine what is meant by what is written in emails. I percieve stress in this last exchange, frustration, almost anger but then what was meant might be simply gentle prodding or poking. Years ago I was involved in an email exchange regarding an issue at the hospital where I worked. I responded to a query by asking What is it about this issue that concerns you? It was reported to my supervisor and I was asked to make a face to face apology. When I realized that what I was asking could be taken negatively I was horrified and I've never trusted email since. I don't know where it fits in Zen but Love one another needs to be there somewhere. Otherwise you end up punching yourself in the face. Bill not Bill! Find what makes your heart sing…and do it! -- *From:* Kristopher Grey k...@kgrey.com *To:* Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com *Sent:* Tue, September 4, 2012 1:12:29 AM *Subject:* Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils On 9/3/2012 6:46 PM, mike brown wrote: I think you have a very shallow idea about what vipassana is. Doesn't matter a wit if I do or don't - but since you keep dragging your cushion around for me to see: FWIW I don't think it's zoning out at all (though some will use it that way). It's also not like you invented it, or it's a big secret. Do you get a discount, or good karma, for mentioning it? ;) No matter what I express, you come back to you own assumptions about what I think - mostly involving some perceived attack on your practice. This makes one of us appears shallow, and the other appear simple minded. You can choose which is which. Any practice can be an escape - or retreat if you prefer. Why do you think people organize/attend those? Some find it helpful to disengage in that way. Creating greater contrast between self-awareness and autopilot, until that sort of in/out of awareness structure implodes. The house of cards you mentioned. Then 'practice' opens up. My concern is with the user, not the practices used. With what they think they are fixing, or what fix they are getting from it. A not so subtle difference. There is a similar difference to how you and I are using the term 'mindfulness'. What you describe I might call a basic sense of self-awareness. A sort of 'witnessing' with/as a conscience. This can be developed, as it is still 'ordinary mind' (clearly not all have the same capacities in this regard, and it appears to come and go, etc.). If something you do then it's a form of mindfulness training, which is still ordinary mind training (while such a distinction makes sense anyway) and will serve as long as you still have ordinary uses for it (meaning you are still alive/functioning). Catching and getting control of the ox. The higher and lower self business of other traditions. The conflicted animal and godlike natures of man. Fortunately, even this division can be seen as false. Short of that, much personal struggle appears. All is seen through that lens. Anyway, my point was not - despite your well intentioned but unnecessary defenses/efforts to skew them as such - a criticism of your practice. I was simply noting the way you appear to differentiate practice from other experiences, maybe attaching some significance in the process that reinforces this. How this is can be 'counterproductive', yet is also an integral aspect of any practice, an aspect of what the practice reveals, what is carried to all other experiences... what has always simply been this experiencing... Tomorrow, remind me to stick to one liners and crappy neo-haiku. Still reeks of rotting flesh, but less dead bones for zen dogs to sniff at/snarl over. KG PS - Equanimity is not a a lack of personality, or invariability of reactions to what arises. No stone Buddha! Cranky was simply my acknowledgement of what was presenting. Redirected energies, responding differently to different stimuli/situations. I see no need wasting more energy pretending to be this or that, unless I do. Something I used to do to manipulate myself and others, I now only do if it aids interactions with others. Looks the same.
Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils
Hi Bill, Any kind of insistence or resistance is a sign of ego, meaning attachment to dharma. We can all learn from these postings, because we can interpret it from both directions. This is Chan -- midway yet accepting all without judgment or discrimination. Diamond Sutra said it so clearly, Dharma contains no dharma. No Dharma is Dharma. Yet there are still insistence to what is Zen, what is zen, and what is not, what I believe, or I disagree... :-( When we are locked by logic, words, or phrases, the key to unlock it is to awaken from within. And that's an internal process, no outsiders can help. Buddha called it delusion, or driven by karma. My teacher call this kind of practice - practicing with our brain. :-) jm On 9/5/2012 12:48 PM, William Rintala wrote: Just an observation here. It is so hard to determine what is meant by what is written in emails. I percieve stress in this last exchange, frustration, almost anger but then what was meant might be simply gentle prodding or poking. Years ago I was involved in an email exchange regarding an issue at the hospital where I worked. I responded to a query by asking What is it about this issue that concerns you? It was reported to my supervisor and I was asked to make a face to face apology. When I realized that what I was asking could be taken negatively I was horrified and I've never trusted email since. I don't know where it fits in Zen but Love one another needs to be there somewhere. Otherwise you end up punching yourself in the face. Bill not Bill! Find what makes your heart sing…and do it! *From:* Kristopher Grey k...@kgrey.com *To:* Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com *Sent:* Tue, September 4, 2012 1:12:29 AM *Subject:* Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils On 9/3/2012 6:46 PM, mike brown wrote: I think you have a very shallow idea about what vipassana is. Doesn't matter a wit if I do or don't - but since you keep dragging your cushion around for me to see: FWIW I don't think it's zoning out at all (though some will use it that way). It's also not like you invented it, or it's a big secret. Do you get a discount, or good karma, for mentioning it? ;) No matter what I express, you come back to you own assumptions about what I think - mostly involving some perceived attack on your practice. This makes one of us appears shallow, and the other appear simple minded. You can choose which is which. Any practice can be an escape - or retreat if you prefer. Why do you think people organize/attend those? Some find it helpful to disengage in that way. Creating greater contrast between self-awareness and autopilot, until that sort of in/out of awareness structure implodes. The house of cards you mentioned. Then 'practice' opens up. My concern is with the user, not the practices used. With what they think they are fixing, or what fix they are getting from it. A not so subtle difference. There is a similar difference to how you and I are using the term 'mindfulness'. What you describe I might call a basic sense of self-awareness. A sort of 'witnessing' with/as a conscience. This can be developed, as it is still 'ordinary mind' (clearly not all have the same capacities in this regard, and it appears to come and go, etc.). If something you do then it's a form of mindfulness training, which is still ordinary mind training (while such a distinction makes sense anyway) and will serve as long as you still have ordinary uses for it (meaning you are still alive/functioning). Catching and getting control of the ox. The higher and lower self business of other traditions. The conflicted animal and godlike natures of man. Fortunately, even this division can be seen as false. Short of that, much personal struggle appears. All is seen through that lens. Anyway, my point was not - despite your well intentioned but unnecessary defenses/efforts to skew them as such - a criticism of your practice. I was simply noting the way you appear to differentiate practice from other experiences, maybe attaching some significance in the process that reinforces this. How this is can be 'counterproductive', yet is also an integral aspect of any practice, an aspect of what the practice reveals, what is carried to all other experiences... what has always simply been this experiencing... Tomorrow, remind me to stick to one liners and crappy neo-haiku. Still reeks of rotting flesh, but less dead bones for zen dogs to sniff at/snarl over. KG PS - Equanimity is not a a lack of personality, or invariability of reactions to what arises. No stone Buddha! Cranky was simply my acknowledgement of what was presenting. Redirected energies, responding differently to different stimuli/situations. I see no need wasting more energy pretending to be this or that, unless I do. Something I used to do to manipulate myself and others, I now only do if it aids interactions with others. Looks
Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils
On 9/5/2012 3:48 PM, William Rintala wrote: When I realized that what I was asking could be taken negatively I was horrified and I've never trusted email since. Typing on eggshells makes no less of a mess. KG Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils
Mike's younger thinner and better looking, so all I can do is copy his hairstyle an do my impressions of him for party guests. KG On 9/5/2012 4:07 PM, mike brown wrote: Bill, You're quite correct in reminding us about the dangers of communicating by email. Body language is a huge part of communicating, even more so than the words spoken or heard. However, I don't think see any anger in Kris' posts to me at all because he knows I'm always right about everything and that he's a complete dick. I think he secretly wishes he was me. True story. Mike *From:* William Rintala brint...@bellsouth.net *To:* Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com *Sent:* Wednesday, 5 September 2012, 20:48 *Subject:* Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils Just an observation here. It is so hard to determine what is meant by what is written in emails. I percieve stress in this last exchange, frustration, almost anger but then what was meant might be simply gentle prodding or poking. Years ago I was involved in an email exchange regarding an issue at the hospital where I worked. I responded to a query by asking What is it about this issue that concerns you? It was reported to my supervisor and I was asked to make a face to face apology. When I realized that what I was asking could be taken negatively I was horrified and I've never trusted email since. I don't know where it fits in Zen but Love one another needs to be there somewhere. Otherwise you end up punching yourself in the face. Bill not Bill! Find what makes your heart sing…and do it! *From:* Kristopher Grey k...@kgrey.com *To:* Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com *Sent:* Tue, September 4, 2012 1:12:29 AM *Subject:* Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils On 9/3/2012 6:46 PM, mike brown wrote: I think you have a very shallow idea about what vipassana is. Doesn't matter a wit if I do or don't - but since you keep dragging your cushion around for me to see: FWIW I don't think it's zoning out at all (though some will use it that way). It's also not like you invented it, or it's a big secret. Do you get a discount, or good karma, for mentioning it? ;) No matter what I express, you come back to you own assumptions about what I think - mostly involving some perceived attack on your practice. This makes one of us appears shallow, and the other appear simple minded. You can choose which is which. Any practice can be an escape - or retreat if you prefer. Why do you think people organize/attend those? Some find it helpful to disengage in that way. Creating greater contrast between self-awareness and autopilot, until that sort of in/out of awareness structure implodes. The house of cards you mentioned. Then 'practice' opens up. My concern is with the user, not the practices used. With what they think they are fixing, or what fix they are getting from it. A not so subtle difference. There is a similar difference to how you and I are using the term 'mindfulness'. What you describe I might call a basic sense of self-awareness. A sort of 'witnessing' with/as a conscience. This can be developed, as it is still 'ordinary mind' (clearly not all have the same capacities in this regard, and it appears to come and go, etc.). If something you do then it's a form of mindfulness training, which is still ordinary mind training (while such a distinction makes sense anyway) and will serve as long as you still have ordinary uses for it (meaning you are still alive/functioning). Catching and getting control of the ox. The higher and lower self business of other traditions. The conflicted animal and godlike natures of man. Fortunately, even this division can be seen as false. Short of that, much personal struggle appears. All is seen through that lens. Anyway, my point was not - despite your well intentioned but unnecessary defenses/efforts to skew them as such - a criticism of your practice. I was simply noting the way you appear to differentiate practice from other experiences, maybe attaching some significance in the process that reinforces this. How this is can be 'counterproductive', yet is also an integral aspect of any practice, an aspect of what the practice reveals, what is carried to all other experiences... what has always simply been this experiencing... Tomorrow, remind me to stick to one liners and crappy neo-haiku. Still reeks of rotting flesh, but less dead bones for zen dogs to sniff at/snarl over. KG PS - Equanimity is not a a lack of personality, or invariability of reactions to what arises. No stone Buddha! Cranky was simply my acknowledgement of what was presenting. Redirected energies, responding differently to different stimuli/situations. I see no need wasting more energy pretending to be this or that, unless I do. Something I used to do to manipulate myself and others, I now only do if it aids interactions
Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils
Intentionally causing harm does. Not knowing you or Mike I felt that the comments were angry and aggressive. My mistake. Doesn't matter a wit if I do or don't - but since you keep dragging your cushion around for me to see: FWIW I don't think it's zoning out at all (though some will use it that way). It's also not like you invented it, or it's a big secret. Do you get a discount, or good karma, for mentioning it? ;) No matter what I express, you come back to you own assumptions about what I think - mostly involving some perceived attack on your practice. This makes one of us appears shallow, and the other appear simple minded. You can choose which is which. Anyway, my point was not - despite your well intentioned but unnecessary defenses/efforts to skew them as such - a criticism of your practice. Tomorrow, remind me to stick to one liners and crappy neo-haiku. Still reeks of rotting flesh, but less dead bones for zen dogs to sniff at/snarl over. Bill not Bill! Find what makes your heart sing…and do it! From: Kristopher Grey k...@kgrey.com To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed, September 5, 2012 3:57:09 PM Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils On 9/5/2012 3:48 PM, William Rintala wrote: When I realized that what I was asking could be taken negatively I was horrified and I've never trusted email since. Typing on eggshells makes no less of a mess. KG
Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils
No need to appologize for feelings Bill, aprticularly when you realize their source. Your sensitivity is appreciated, adds balance. KG On 9/5/2012 5:23 PM, William Rintala wrote: Intentionally causing harm does. Not knowing you or Mike I felt that the comments were angry and aggressive. My mistake.
Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils
On 9/3/2012 8:35 PM, Bill! wrote: I just wanted to make sure everyone else also knew the difference between 'Self' and 'self'. Which one washes it's bowl? *L* KG PS - Some 'Buddha's Witnesses' confuse Buddhianity with Christianism.
Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils
take it as it comes..no frills...you do not have a choice ..merle Merle, that's when zen is most needed mike...to get you through the day Should I take it straight or on the rocks? ; ) Mike From: Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, 3 September 2012, 22:31 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils that's when zen is most needed mike...to get you through the day...merle Ultimately, yes - in day to day living, no. At least not in the story of my life. It's so easy to claim Buddhahood when things are going well, but just watch that little house of cards coming crashing down when you get a nasty hemorrhoids on a hot, sweaty day or your girlfriend cheats on you. That's why even something as simple as being mindful of the breath can be the most difficult thing in the world in such circumstances. You can philosophise your way out of it here quite easily, but meanwhile back in the real world [insert exegesis on 'real world' here].. Mike From: Kristopher Grey k...@kgrey.com To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, 3 September 2012, 1:34 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils This matter of whether there is or isn't isn't someone to suffer is all smoke and mirrors. Suffering appears. This is clear enough. What is this notion of liberation from but self relating to self? What appears, appears. What of it? Clarity, selfless. No self that need to see into itself. No such conceptual contortions required. Don't settle for nothing. Don't attach to anything. This takes no effort. KG On 9/2/2012 5:35 PM, mike brown wrote: Kris, There is no one who suffers, but only after the realisation that there isn't even a mind for suffering to happen to is there liberation from it. Clarity here reads as insight. Mike From: Kristopher Grey k...@kgrey.com To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 20:23 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils Then you still know too much. ;) If it so clear as that, there is nothing to see. The 'obscuration' all that may show the way. What you are seeing as separate only appears to be. All a matter of how you see it. So who is leading who? Who suffers? In seeking perfection, it forever eludes. The clear minded are equally empty headed. Don't throw the Buddha out with the bathwater. KG PS - Expresses simpler/more obviously wordlessly - see: 'Wabi Sabi' - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wabi-sabi On 9/2/2012 12:32 PM, mike brown wrote: Kris, I might point out that apparent obscuration is no less reality than apparent clarity Reality is certainly there regardless, but reality seen with obscuration leads to suffering, whereas reality seen with clarity will lead to the cessation of suffering. That's all I need to know and that is my witness. Mike From: Kristopher Grey k...@kgrey.com To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 16:11 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils I might point out that apparent obscuration is no less reality than apparent clarity. In doing so, this point only dances around itself - offers nothing you can't realize directly. What can anyone say in response that you will not directly experience (realize) as some aspect of this reality/realization- whether you realize it or not - just as when experiencing meditation/not meditation? This more or less business is you triangulating your position. Nothing more, nothing less. KG On 9/2/2012 5:57 AM, mike brown wrote: Edgar, Wouldn't you say tho, that reality is less obscured during, or just after, a long retreat of meditation? Mike From: Edgar Owen edgaro...@att.net To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 1:13 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils Mike, Well, it's reality either way, but that reality is always changing as happening continually flows through the present moment
Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils
how do you know KG? Merle On 9/3/2012 5:31 PM, Merle Lester wrote: that's when zen is most needed mike...to get you through the day...merle Zen Angels preaching Zen Demons cursing No one hears any of it KG
Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils
...*smiles/laughter*. with Lord Buddha's humor Mel From: mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, 4 September 2012 4:07 AM Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils Yay! Who wants to be in my gang? I've got Buddha and Bill! From: Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, 3 September 2012, 3:25 Subject: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils I agree with Mike's statement...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusuboyo@... wrote: Kris, I might point out that apparent obscuration is no less reality than apparent clarity Reality is certainly there regardless, but reality seen with obscuration leads to suffering, whereas reality seen with clarity will lead to the cessation of suffering. That's all I need to know and that is my witness. Mike From: Kristopher Grey kris@... To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 16:11 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils  I might point out that apparent obscuration is no less reality than apparent clarity. In doing so, this point only dances around itself - offers nothing you can't realize directly. What can anyone say in response that you will not directly experience (realize) as some aspect of this reality/realization- whether you realize it or not - just as when experiencing meditation/not meditation? This more or less business is you triangulating your position. Nothing more, nothing less. KG On 9/2/2012 5:57 AM, mike brown wrote:  Edgar, Wouldn't you say tho, that reality is less obscured during, or just after, a long retreat of meditation? Mike From: Edgar Owen edgarowen@... To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 1:13 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils  Mike, Well, it's reality either way, but that reality is always changing as happening continually flows through the present moment. But however it changes it is still reality Edgar On Sep 1, 2012, at 6:09 PM, mike brown wrote:  Edgar, Would you say that the world (inner/outer) you look at now is the same as when you're at the end of a sesshin? Mike From: Edgar Owen edgarowen@... To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, 1 September 2012, 18:44 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils  ED, Stop practicing and just BE your Buddha Nature! Edgar On Sep 1, 2012, at 12:22 PM, ED wrote:  Edgar, Therefore, although each of us is complete, we need to practice diligently at all times with no objective in mind? --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: Joe and Merle, There is no 'goal' of enlightenment to be achieved without which you imagine you are incomplete There is no incompleteness. This understanding is an essential aspect of realization... Wham! Edgar
Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils
Why do you paint? KG On 9/4/2012 3:34 AM, Merle Lester wrote: how do you know KG? Merle On 9/3/2012 5:31 PM, Merle Lester wrote: that's when zen is most needed mike...to get you through the day...merle Zen Angels preaching Zen Demons cursing No one hears any of it KG
Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils
Know what Merle? Know what? What meaning are you giving those words? It is a koan of sorts, a line written for a song never finished... KG On 9/4/2012 3:34 AM, Merle Lester wrote: how do you know KG? Merle On 9/3/2012 5:31 PM, Merle Lester wrote: that's when zen is most needed mike...to get you through the day...merle Zen Angels preaching Zen Demons cursing No one hears any of it KG
Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils
Believing you make such a choice, is blaming the rice for dirtying your bowl. KG On 9/4/2012 9:05 PM, Bill! wrote: Merle, You are correct that reality comes with no frills, but you do have a choice. You can choose to invent frills (illusions) and become attached to them. Or you can choose not to do that. Choosing not to do and dropping all attachments is called 'washing your bowl'...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:  take it as it comes..no frills...you do not have a choice ..merle  Merle, that's when zen is most needed mike...to get you through the day Should I take it straight or on the rocks? ; ) Mike From: Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, 3 September 2012, 22:31 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils   that's when zen is most needed mike...to get you through the day...merle Ultimately, yes - in day to day living, no. At least not in the story of my life. It's so easy to claim Buddhahood when things are going well, but just watch that little house of cards coming crashing down when you get a nasty hemorrhoids on a hot, sweaty day or your girlfriend cheats on you. That's why even something as simple as being mindful of the breath can be the most difficult thing in the world in such circumstances. You can philosophise your way out of it here quite easily, but meanwhile back in the real world [insert exegesis on 'real world' here].. Mike From: Kristopher Grey kris@... To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, 3 September 2012, 1:34 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils  This matter of whether there is or isn't isn't someone to suffer is all smoke and mirrors. Suffering appears. This is clear enough. What is this notion of liberation from but self relating to self? What appears, appears. What of it? Clarity, selfless. No self that need to see into itself. No such conceptual contortions required. Don't settle for nothing. Don't attach to anything. This takes no effort. KG On 9/2/2012 5:35 PM, mike brown wrote:  Kris, There is no one who suffers, but only after the realisation that there isn't even a mind for suffering to happen to is there liberation from it. Clarity here reads as insight. Mike From: Kristopher Grey kris@... To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 20:23 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils  Then you still know too much. ;) If it so clear as that, there is nothing to see. The 'obscuration' all that may show the way. What you are seeing as separate only appears to be. All a matter of how you see it. So who is leading who? Who suffers? In seeking perfection, it forever eludes. The clear minded are equally empty headed. Don't throw the Buddha out with the bathwater. KG PS - Expresses simpler/more obviously wordlessly - see: 'Wabi Sabi' - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wabi-sabi On 9/2/2012 12:32 PM, mike brown wrote:  Kris, I might point out that apparent obscuration is no less reality than apparent clarity Reality is certainly there regardless, but reality seen with obscuration leads to suffering, whereas reality seen with clarity will lead to the cessation of suffering. That's all I need to know and that is my witness. Mike From: Kristopher Grey kris@... To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 16:11 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils  I might point out that apparent obscuration is no less reality than apparent clarity. In doing so, this point only dances around itself - offers nothing you can't realize directly. What can anyone say in response that you will not directly experience (realize) as some aspect of this reality/realization- whether you realize it or not - just as when experiencing meditation/not meditation? This more or less business is you triangulating your position. Nothing more, nothing less. KG On 9/2/2012 5:57 AM, mike brown wrote:  Edgar, Wouldn't you say tho, that reality is less obscured during, or just after, a long retreat of meditation? Mike From: Edgar Owen edgarowen@... To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 1:13 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils  Mike, Well, it's reality either way, but that reality is always changing as happening continually flows through
Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils
Hi Merle, The substance of all of reality is Buddha Nature = Tao = ontological energy = life force of reality or whatever one wants to call it. When this is experienced internally it's called Chi. Same stuff, just different location, and thus different manifestation.. Edgar On Sep 2, 2012, at 5:47 PM, Merle Lester wrote: this morn i go to tai chi class... and gather the chi energy.i think a spirit is out there mike..the chi is within what doth thee say edgar?..merle Edgar, Don't you contradict yourself here somewhat? You were previously critical of people from cultures where they may have a belief in dragons or rainbow serpents etc. Aren't these beliefs part of the Truth (Buddha Nature) as well then? Especially when they haven't had, or even when they have had, contact with contemporary science. If you believe in 'chi' energy, what's the difference in believing in 'spirit'? Mike From: Edgar Owen edgaro...@att.net To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 13:00 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils Bill! And that my friend is precisely the problem. Logic, like everything else that exists IS Buddha Nature. Because there is nothing that is NOT Buddha nature... I think we've honed into the absolute kernel and crux of the disagreement right here ... See what I'm saying? You adopt a dualistic view by denying part of what exists is part of Buddha Nature. I point out there is no such dualism because everything that exists is part of reality (Buddha Nature) by definition, including things such as logic and your daily life using logic making a living, that you deny is part of Buddha Nature. This is the MOST IMPORTANT post of mine to Bill! ever! I only hope this will be a super Kwatz moment and that Bill! won't try to avoid and ignore the koan as usual Edgar On Sep 2, 2012, at 7:32 AM, Bill! wrote: Edgar, Sometimes I think you don't read my posts. I NEVER said I don't use logic. I use it all the time. I make my living using it. I don't however mistake logic for Buddha Nature. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Bill!, Proving Bill! still uses his considerable intelligence to negotiate the rational world of forms contrary to what he claims and would have us believe :-) Edgar On Sep 2, 2012, at 4:46 AM, Bill! wrote: Bill, I've had a lot of practice trying to follow Edgar's posts. I'm sure you'll get the hang of it sooner or later. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, William Rintala brintala@ wrote: Thank you for that Edgar. I can follow your emails better if you give them to me a teaspoon at a time, unlike Bill! who seems to follow what you say with ease.  Bill not Bill! Find what makes your heart sing…and do it! From: Edgar Owen edgarowen@ To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sat, September 1, 2012 6:36:59 AM Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils  Joe and Merle, There is no 'goal' of enlightenment to be achieved without which you imagine you are incomplete There is no incompleteness. This understanding is an essential aspect of realization... Wham! Edgar On Aug 30, 2012, at 11:51 PM, Joe wrote:  Hiya, Merle, Nonetheless, practice formally if you are able. If you are not able, then find some way to do it. ;-) It's as important as that. Life is a little bit short, nowadays. If you report-back that it is all B.S., then we'll understand that it is so, for you... once you have given it your ALL, with a good teacher, and sangha. But I think you'll have a more positive experience, and report. In fact, I worry that you may develop attachments, especially in the realm, or area, of the Optical-sense. But when I see the paintings that afterwards result, coming from your studio, THAT will assuage my concerns, probably, and bath me in balm, I am sure. And this is what I look forward to. Yet, it's not selfishness, on my part. And, I am not attached to the possibility. But I have hopes that EVERYONE who wishes to practice under the best conditions may have their wish, and will awaken. Not just because I have done it, and have had the wonder and miracle of this chance a number of times, as many of us have, in company with so many others throughout History, and among our intimate acquaintances: but, because so many others have *not*. I know what I'm wishing you, and others, I mean. Otherwise... may the veiled-life
Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils [1 Attachment]
From: Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 22:44 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils i'll show you my pics if you show me yours...merle Mike, Sorry for ruining your appetite! Maybe Merle's running naked through the daffodils site will restore it! :-) Edgar On Sep 2, 2012, at 8:14 AM, mike brown wrote: Edgar, Thanks. You do know it's dinner time here in the UK, right? Mike From: Edgar Owen edgaro...@att.net To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 13:09 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils Mike, You mean you haven't seen Bill's naked zazen photos? :-) Edgar On Sep 2, 2012, at 7:59 AM, mike brown wrote: Naked Yoga Forum? If that's run by you and Edgar, then I hope it's strictly conducted in the written medium only. God forbid. Mike From: Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 12:53 Subject: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils I agree with Edgar! ...and that's how we pump-up the post count so we can increase our commission checks and some day retire to become moderators of the Yahoo! Naked Yoga Forum. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Bill!, Mike and ED, Yes, I'll continually fill your bowls with the gruel of realization while Bill! continually washes it right out of your bowls! again :-) EDgar On Sep 2, 2012, at 7:16 AM, Bill! wrote: Mike and ED, Or how about...Just continue to exchange posts with Edgar. He's got what seems to be an unlimited supply of rice gruel. He'll keep your bowl filled to the brim! ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Bill! BillSmart@ wrote: Mike, Point taken, but this is the Zen Forum, not the Theravada Forum or the Here-Have-Some-More-Rice-Gruel Forum. ED, Just sit. Don't think. Just sit. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusuboyo@ wrote: Bill!, A great instruction, and is certainly direct, but Joshu's instructions were given to a monk who had probably been practicing meditation for a long time and was already 'ripe' for awakening to happen. Imagine how useful that instruction would be to a neophyte coming off the street asking about the search for truth or something similar. Joshu's instruction is just that - an instruction. That's why i believe Buddha's skilful means (upaya) is so useful as a teaching method. On the one side we can have the direct pointing to the Dharma (Zen) and on the other we can have Therevada Buddhism with it's more step by step instructions, such as following the Noble eightfold Path. The Buddha was very wise to understand that there are many different kinds of people/cultures/personalities etc. out there and no one method will work for all. I think it should be clear now that wash you bowls just isn't going to work for someone like ED. If you agree, what else could you say that might help him? Mike From: Bill! BillSmart@ To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 9:48 Subject: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils  ED, Mind if Joshu and I jump in? WASH YOUR BOWLS! That's how...Bill! (and Joshu) --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, ED seacrofter001@ wrote: Edgar, And how is this magic trick accomplished? --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: ED, Stop practicing and just BE your Buddha Nature! Edgar Edgar, Therefore, although each of us is complete, we need to practice diligently at all times with no objective in mind? --ED Joe and Merle, There is no 'goal' of enlightenment to be achieved without which you imagine you are incomplete There is no incompleteness. This understanding is an essential aspect of realization... Wham! Edgar
Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils
Don't know From: Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 22:47 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils this morn i go to tai chi class... and gather the chi energy.i think a spirit is out there mike..the chi is within what doth thee say edgar?..merle Edgar, Don't you contradict yourself here somewhat? You were previously critical of people from cultures where they may have a belief in dragons or rainbow serpents etc. Aren't these beliefs part of the Truth (Buddha Nature) as well then? Especially when they haven't had, or even when they have had, contact with contemporary science. If you believe in 'chi' energy, what's the difference in believing in 'spirit'? Mike From: Edgar Owen edgaro...@att.net To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 13:00 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils Bill! And that my friend is precisely the problem. Logic, like everything else that exists IS Buddha Nature. Because there is nothing that is NOT Buddha nature... I think we've honed into the absolute kernel and crux of the disagreement right here ... See what I'm saying? You adopt a dualistic view by denying part of what exists is part of Buddha Nature. I point out there is no such dualism because everything that exists is part of reality (Buddha Nature) by definition, including things such as logic and your daily life using logic making a living, that you deny is part of Buddha Nature. This is the MOST IMPORTANT post of mine to Bill! ever! I only hope this will be a super Kwatz moment and that Bill! won't try to avoid and ignore the koan as usual Edgar On Sep 2, 2012, at 7:32 AM, Bill! wrote: Edgar, Sometimes I think you don't read my posts. I NEVER said I don't use logic. I use it all the time. I make my living using it. I don't however mistake logic for Buddha Nature. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Bill!, Proving Bill! still uses his considerable intelligence to negotiate the rational world of forms contrary to what he claims and would have us believe :-) Edgar On Sep 2, 2012, at 4:46 AM, Bill! wrote: Bill, I've had a lot of practice trying to follow Edgar's posts. I'm sure you'll get the hang of it sooner or later. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, William Rintala brintala@ wrote: Thank you for that Edgar. I can follow your emails better if you give them to me a teaspoon at a time, unlike Bill! who seems to follow what you say with ease.  Bill not Bill! Find what makes your heart sing…and do it! From: Edgar Owen edgarowen@ To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sat, September 1, 2012 6:36:59 AM Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils  Joe and Merle, There is no 'goal' of enlightenment to be achieved without which you imagine you are incomplete There is no incompleteness. This understanding is an essential aspect of realization... Wham! Edgar On Aug 30, 2012, at 11:51 PM, Joe wrote:  Hiya, Merle, Nonetheless, practice formally if you are able. If you are not able, then find some way to do it. ;-) It's as important as that. Life is a little bit short, nowadays. If you report-back that it is all B.S., then we'll understand that it is so, for you... once you have given it your ALL, with a good teacher, and sangha. But I think you'll have a more positive experience, and report. In fact, I worry that you may develop attachments, especially in the realm, or area, of the Optical-sense. But when I see the paintings that afterwards result, coming from your studio, THAT will assuage my concerns, probably, and bath me in balm, I am sure. And this is what I look forward to. Yet, it's not selfishness, on my part. And, I am not attached to the possibility. But I have hopes that EVERYONE who wishes to practice under the best conditions may have their wish, and will awaken. Not just because I have done it, and have had the wonder and miracle of this chance a number of times, as many of us have, in company with so many others throughout History, and among our intimate acquaintances: but, because so many others have *not*. I know what I'm wishing you, and others, I mean. Otherwise... may the veiled-life suffice! One can't disparage where we are. One can only either realize, or not realize. Realize means realizing where we are already, but being the most clear about it. That's not a movement to somewhere
Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils
Nothing evil about pictures, but in Bill! and Edgar's case (naked) I'd say the content would be evil.. From: Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 22:48 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils why written form mike..?...what's evil about pictures...merle Naked Yoga Forum? If that's run by you and Edgar, then I hope it's strictly conducted in the written medium only. God forbid. Mike From: Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 12:53 Subject: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils I agree with Edgar! ...and that's how we pump-up the post count so we can increase our commission checks and some day retire to become moderators of the Yahoo! Naked Yoga Forum. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Bill!, Mike and ED, Yes, I'll continually fill your bowls with the gruel of realization while Bill! continually washes it right out of your bowls! again :-) EDgar On Sep 2, 2012, at 7:16 AM, Bill! wrote: Mike and ED, Or how about...Just continue to exchange posts with Edgar. He's got what seems to be an unlimited supply of rice gruel. He'll keep your bowl filled to the brim! ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Bill! BillSmart@ wrote: Mike, Point taken, but this is the Zen Forum, not the Theravada Forum or the Here-Have-Some-More-Rice-Gruel Forum. ED, Just sit. Don't think. Just sit. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusuboyo@ wrote: Bill!, A great instruction, and is certainly direct, but Joshu's instructions were given to a monk who had probably been practicing meditation for a long time and was already 'ripe' for awakening to happen. Imagine how useful that instruction would be to a neophyte coming off the street asking about the search for truth or something similar. Joshu's instruction is just that - an instruction. That's why i believe Buddha's skilful means (upaya) is so useful as a teaching method. On the one side we can have the direct pointing to the Dharma (Zen) and on the other we can have Therevada Buddhism with it's more step by step instructions, such as following the Noble eightfold Path. The Buddha was very wise to understand that there are many different kinds of people/cultures/personalities etc. out there and no one method will work for all. I think it should be clear now that wash you bowls just isn't going to work for someone like ED. If you agree, what else could you say that might help him? Mike From: Bill! BillSmart@ To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 9:48 Subject: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils  ED, Mind if Joshu and I jump in? WASH YOUR BOWLS! That's how...Bill! (and Joshu) --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, ED seacrofter001@ wrote: Edgar, And how is this magic trick accomplished? --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: ED, Stop practicing and just BE your Buddha Nature! Edgar Edgar, Therefore, although each of us is complete, we need to practice diligently at all times with no objective in mind? --ED Joe and Merle, There is no 'goal' of enlightenment to be achieved without which you imagine you are incomplete There is no incompleteness. This understanding is an essential aspect of realization... Wham! Edgar
Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils
Chris, As you wrote so eloquently, Now I know you're taking the piss! Mike From: Chris Austin-Lane ch...@austin-lane.net To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 23:40 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils I enjoy your annotations - carry on. As you wrote so eloquently, many paths, same path. But i laughed aloud at the exchange on Zen forum vs Buddhism forum vs gruel forum. On Sep 2, 2012 2:38 PM, mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Chris, Guess we could all just shout Kwatz! at each other from now on then... Mike From: Chris Austin-Lane ch...@austin-lane.net To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 21:52 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils This day it is the annotated Zen Forum. On Sep 2, 2012 4:05 AM, mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Bill!, Isn't it the Zen BuddhistForum, at least by implication? Isn't it fair to talk about comparisons? ED, Just sit. Don't think. Just sit. But if you do find yourself thinking, just come back gently to the breath. When you find your mind has become calm become mindful of how the breath (or any bodily sensations) arises and passes. How it is that there is no 'you' doing the breathing - rather the universe is breathing 'you'. Note how even pleasant sensations eventually pass and more unpleasant, or neutral, sensations take their place. With such mindfulness you may find you gain some insight into the 3 Characteristics of existence: impermanence, non-self, and the unsatisfactoriness of phenomena. With diligence and patience, you may become liberated from suffering. Not exactly pithy, I admit. And Zen is certainly direct in pointing to our True Nature. But wash your bowls, just sit and Just This! is also not 'it' either. So if we're going to have instructions/guides, then there is definitely a place for more descriptive ones (even tho the endgame will always be that they are ultimately dropped). The method is NOT the meditation. Mike From: Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 11:33 Subject: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils Mike, Point taken, but this is the Zen Forum, not the Theravada Forum or the Here-Have-Some-More-Rice-Gruel Forum. ED, Just sit. Don't think. Just sit. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusuboyo@... wrote: Bill!, A great instruction, and is certainly direct, but Joshu's instructions were given to a monk who had probably been practicing meditation for a long time and was already 'ripe' for awakening to happen. Imagine how useful that instruction would be to a neophyte coming off the street asking about the search for truth or something similar. Joshu's instruction is just that - an instruction. That's why i believe Buddha's skilful means (upaya) is so useful as a teaching method. On the one side we can have the direct pointing to the Dharma (Zen) and on the other we can have Therevada Buddhism with it's more step by step instructions, such as following the Noble eightfold Path. The Buddha was very wise to understand that there are many different kinds of people/cultures/personalities etc. out there and no one method will work for all. I think it should be clear now that wash you bowls just isn't going to work for someone like ED. If you agree, what else could you say that might help him? Mike From: Bill! BillSmart@... To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 9:48 Subject: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils  ED, Mind if Joshu and I jump in? WASH YOUR BOWLS! That's how...Bill! (and Joshu) --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, ED seacrofter001@ wrote: Edgar, And how is this magic trick accomplished? --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: ED, Stop practicing and just BE your Buddha Nature! Edgar Edgar, Therefore, although each of us is complete, we need to practice diligently at all times with no objective in mind? --ED Joe and Merle, There is no 'goal' of enlightenment to be achieved without which you imagine you are incomplete There is no incompleteness. This understanding is an essential aspect of realization... Wham! Edgar
Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils
I don't know. There's nothing I need and nothing to purchase. From: Kristopher Grey k...@kgrey.com To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, 3 September 2012, 1:36 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils How were you planning to spend it? KG On 9/2/2012 5:36 PM, mike brown wrote: Kinda loses it's currency then. Mike From: Kristopher Grey k...@kgrey.com To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 21:49 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils So it appears. Seen, said, heard. Same. Suchness. KG On 9/2/2012 1:26 PM, mike brown wrote: Kris, Don't know (Which only appears to be a pithy zen saying when seen so) Or said so. Mike From: Kristopher Grey k...@kgrey.com To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 16:14 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils With or without. Why decide? Don't know (Which only appears to be a pithy zen saying when seen so) KG On 9/2/2012 7:46 AM, mike brown wrote: Edgar, Of course Realisation is not something that happens only inside monastry walls, but it also doesn't come from understanding words like ontological and cognitive simulation model either. Mike From: Edgar Owen edgaro...@att.net To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 12:31 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils Mike, There are certainly times it is, but that can happen at any time Realization is not just something that occurs inside monastery walls... It has nothing to do with that... It's just opening to reality and reality is everywhere... Edgar On Sep 2, 2012, at 5:57 AM, mike brown wrote: Edgar, Wouldn't you say tho, that reality is less obscured during, or just after, a long retreat of meditation? Mike From: Edgar Owen edgaro...@att.net To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 1:13 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils Mike, Well, it's reality either way, but that reality is always changing as happening continually flows through the present moment. But however it changes it is still reality Edgar On Sep 1, 2012, at 6:09 PM, mike brown wrote: Edgar, Would you say that the world (inner/outer) you look at now is the same as when you're at the end of a sesshin? Mike From: Edgar Owen edgaro...@att.net To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, 1 September 2012, 18:44 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils ED, Stop practicing and just BE your Buddha Nature! Edgar On Sep 1, 2012, at 12:22 PM, ED wrote: Edgar, Therefore, although each of us is complete, we need to practice diligently at all times with no objective in mind? --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Joe and Merle, There is no 'goal' of enlightenment to be achieved without which you imagine you are incomplete There is no incompleteness. This understanding is an essential
Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils
Bill!, Self, Buddha Nature, Ground of Being, Awareness etc etc. are really all convenient labels for 'mind and body dropped away'. This is our True Self, Original Face. Small s self is our ordinary mind - the one that thinks 'Mike' is real and separate from the world (dualistic). The Self that I refer to is the no-self (non-dualistic) and is unborn and so doesn't come into existence (always exists - just as the sun is still there when obscured by clouds). Hope that's.. clear? Mike From: Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, 3 September 2012, 3:21 Subject: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils Mike, The 'self' does not always exist. I have experienced this myself and know many, many others that have also. In fact this dissolving of 'self' is a pre-requisite (from my experience) to uncovering Buddha Nature. Maybe in the post below when you used the term 'Self' in the last line you meant 'Buddha Nature'? Or maybe you meant 'self' always returns? ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusuboyo@... wrote: Kris, Very good! You must have given that a lot of thought ; ) Self can be found nowhere else Of course. Self/Buddha Nature/Awareness is unborn (and therefore never dies) and so is ever present regardless of what we are thinking/doing. But suffering arises when we think there is an independent 'I' having those thoughts. That we have this Realisation is the difference. How this Realisation manifests is unimportant. For some it will be sudden for others gradual. But you're correct that Self alwaysis. Mke From: Kristopher Grey kris@... To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 15:42 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils  On 9/2/2012 7:05 AM, mike brown wrote: But if you do find yourself thinking, just come back gently to the breath. A tri-ku for you: With each rise and fall The breath is grasped and released Each, a birth and death Immersed in thinking Self can be found nowhere else Always lost in thought Mind, a stream of thought Following, or flowing by The way, like water
Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils
Yay! Who wants to be in my gang? I've got Buddha and Bill! From: Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, 3 September 2012, 3:25 Subject: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils I agree with Mike's statement...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusuboyo@... wrote: Kris, I might point out that apparent obscuration is no less reality than apparent clarity Reality is certainly there regardless, but reality seen with obscuration leads to suffering, whereas reality seen with clarity will lead to the cessation of suffering. That's all I need to know and that is my witness. Mike From: Kristopher Grey kris@... To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 16:11 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils  I might point out that apparent obscuration is no less reality than apparent clarity. In doing so, this point only dances around itself - offers nothing you can't realize directly. What can anyone say in response that you will not directly experience (realize) as some aspect of this reality/realization- whether you realize it or not - just as when experiencing meditation/not meditation? This more or less business is you triangulating your position. Nothing more, nothing less. KG On 9/2/2012 5:57 AM, mike brown wrote:  Edgar, Wouldn't you say tho, that reality is less obscured during, or just after, a long retreat of meditation? Mike From: Edgar Owen edgarowen@... To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 1:13 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils  Mike, Well, it's reality either way, but that reality is always changing as happening continually flows through the present moment. But however it changes it is still reality Edgar On Sep 1, 2012, at 6:09 PM, mike brown wrote:  Edgar, Would you say that the world (inner/outer) you look at now is the same as when you're at the end of a sesshin? Mike From: Edgar Owen edgarowen@... To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, 1 September 2012, 18:44 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils  ED, Stop practicing and just BE your Buddha Nature! Edgar On Sep 1, 2012, at 12:22 PM, ED wrote:  Edgar, Therefore, although each of us is complete, we need to practice diligently at all times with no objective in mind? --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: Joe and Merle, There is no 'goal' of enlightenment to be achieved without which you imagine you are incomplete There is no incompleteness. This understanding is an essential aspect of realization... Wham! Edgar
Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils
Bill!, How about, Just Kwatz!? Gu... Mike From: Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, 3 September 2012, 3:32 Subject: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils Be Careful! Remember Gutei's Finger! KATZ! ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusuboyo@... wrote: Chris, Guess we could all just shout Kwatz! at each other from now on then... Mike From: Chris Austin-Lane chris@... To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 21:52 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils  This day it is the annotated Zen Forum. On Sep 2, 2012 4:05 AM, mike brown uerusuboyo@... wrote: Bill!, Isn't it the Zen BuddhistForum, at least by implication? Isn't it fair to talk about comparisons? ED, Just sit. Don't think. Just sit. But if you do find yourself thinking, just come back gently to the breath. When you find your mind has become calm become mindful of how the breath (or any bodily sensations) arises and passes. How it is that there is no 'you' doing the breathing - rather the universe is breathing 'you'. Note how even pleasant sensations eventually pass and more unpleasant, or neutral, sensations take their place. With such mindfulness you may find you gain some insight into the 3 Characteristics of existence: impermanence, non-self, and the unsatisfactoriness of phenomena. With diligence and patience, you may become liberated from suffering. Not exactly pithy, I admit. And Zen is certainly direct in pointing to our True Nature. But wash your bowls, just sit and Just This! is also not 'it' either. So if we're going to have instructions/guides, then there is definitely a place for more descriptive ones (even tho the endgame will always be that they are ultimately dropped). The method is NOT the meditation. Mike From: Bill! BillSmart@... To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 11:33 Subject: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils  Mike, Point taken, but this is the Zen Forum, not the Theravada Forum or the Here-Have-Some-More-Rice-Gruel Forum. ED, Just sit. Don't think. Just sit. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusuboyo@ wrote: Bill!, A great instruction, and is certainly direct, but Joshu's instructions were given to a monk who had probably been practicing meditation for a long time and was already 'ripe' for awakening to happen. Imagine how useful that instruction would be to a neophyte coming off the street asking about the search for truth or something similar. Joshu's instruction is just that - an instruction. That's why i believe Buddha's skilful means (upaya) is so useful as a teaching method. On the one side we can have the direct pointing to the Dharma (Zen) and on the other we can have Therevada Buddhism with it's more step by step instructions, such as following the Noble eightfold Path. The Buddha was very wise to understand that there are many different kinds of people/cultures/personalities etc. out there and no one method will work for all. I think it should be clear now that wash you bowls just isn't going to work for someone like ED. If you agree, what else could you say that might help him? Mike From: Bill! BillSmart@ To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 9:48 Subject: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils  ED, Mind if Joshu and I jump in? WASH YOUR BOWLS! That's how...Bill! (and Joshu) --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, ED seacrofter001@ wrote: Edgar, And how is this magic trick accomplished? --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: ED, Stop practicing and just BE your Buddha Nature! Edgar Edgar, Therefore, although each of us is complete, we need to practice diligently at all times with no objective in mind? --ED Joe and Merle, There is no 'goal' of enlightenment to be achieved without which you imagine you are incomplete There is no incompleteness. This understanding is an essential aspect of realization... Wham! Edgar
Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils
Kris, This takes no effort. Ultimately, yes - in day to day living, no. At least not in the story of my life. It's so easy to claim Buddhahood when things are going well, but just watch that little house of cards coming crashing down when you get a nasty hemorrhoids on a hot, sweaty day or your girlfriend cheats on you. That's why even something as simple as being mindful of the breath can be the most difficult thing in the world in such circumstances. You can philosophise your way out of it here quite easily, but meanwhile back in the real world [insert exegesis on 'real world' here].. Mike From: Kristopher Grey k...@kgrey.com To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, 3 September 2012, 1:34 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils This matter of whether there is or isn't isn't someone to suffer is all smoke and mirrors. Suffering appears. This is clear enough. What is this notion of liberation from but self relating to self? What appears, appears. What of it? Clarity, selfless. No self that need to see into itself. No such conceptual contortions required. Don't settle for nothing. Don't attach to anything. This takes no effort. KG On 9/2/2012 5:35 PM, mike brown wrote: Kris, There is no one who suffers, but only after the realisation that there isn't even a mind for suffering to happen to is there liberation from it. Clarity here reads as insight. Mike From: Kristopher Grey k...@kgrey.com To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 20:23 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils Then you still know too much. ;) If it so clear as that, there is nothing to see. The 'obscuration' all that may show the way. What you are seeing as separate only appears to be. All a matter of how you see it. So who is leading who? Who suffers? In seeking perfection, it forever eludes. The clear minded are equally empty headed. Don't throw the Buddha out with the bathwater. KG PS - Expresses simpler/more obviously wordlessly - see: 'Wabi Sabi' - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wabi-sabi On 9/2/2012 12:32 PM, mike brown wrote: Kris, I might point out that apparent obscuration is no less reality than apparent clarity Reality is certainly there regardless, but reality seen with obscuration leads to suffering, whereas reality seen with clarity will lead to the cessation of suffering. That's all I need to know and that is my witness. Mike From: Kristopher Grey k...@kgrey.com To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 16:11 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils I might point out that apparent obscuration is no less reality than apparent clarity. In doing so, this point only dances around itself - offers nothing you can't realize directly. What can anyone say in response that you will not directly experience (realize) as some aspect of this reality/realization- whether you realize it or not - just as when experiencing meditation/not meditation? This more or less business is you triangulating your position. Nothing more, nothing less. KG On 9/2/2012 5:57 AM, mike brown wrote: Edgar, Wouldn't you say tho, that reality is less obscured during, or just after, a long retreat of meditation? Mike From: Edgar Owen edgaro...@att.net To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 1:13 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils Mike, Well, it's reality either way, but that reality is always changing as happening continually flows through the present moment. But however it changes it is still reality Edgar On Sep 1, 2012, at 6:09 PM, mike brown wrote: Edgar, Would you say that the world (inner/outer) you look at now is the same as when you're at the end of a sesshin? Mike From: Edgar Owen edgaro...@att.net To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, 1 September 2012, 18:44 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils ED, Stop practicing and just
Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils
that's when zen is most needed mike...to get you through the day...merle Ultimately, yes - in day to day living, no. At least not in the story of my life. It's so easy to claim Buddhahood when things are going well, but just watch that little house of cards coming crashing down when you get a nasty hemorrhoids on a hot, sweaty day or your girlfriend cheats on you. That's why even something as simple as being mindful of the breath can be the most difficult thing in the world in such circumstances. You can philosophise your way out of it here quite easily, but meanwhile back in the real world [insert exegesis on 'real world' here].. Mike From: Kristopher Grey k...@kgrey.com To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, 3 September 2012, 1:34 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils This matter of whether there is or isn't isn't someone to suffer is all smoke and mirrors. Suffering appears. This is clear enough. What is this notion of liberation from but self relating to self? What appears, appears. What of it? Clarity, selfless. No self that need to see into itself. No such conceptual contortions required. Don't settle for nothing. Don't attach to anything. This takes no effort. KG On 9/2/2012 5:35 PM, mike brown wrote: Kris, There is no one who suffers, but only after the realisation that there isn't even a mind for suffering to happen to is there liberation from it. Clarity here reads as insight. Mike From: Kristopher Grey k...@kgrey.com To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 20:23 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils Then you still know too much. ;) If it so clear as that, there is nothing to see. The 'obscuration' all that may show the way. What you are seeing as separate only appears to be. All a matter of how you see it. So who is leading who? Who suffers? In seeking perfection, it forever eludes. The clear minded are equally empty headed. Don't throw the Buddha out with the bathwater. KG PS - Expresses simpler/more obviously wordlessly - see: 'Wabi Sabi' - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wabi-sabi On 9/2/2012 12:32 PM, mike brown wrote: Kris, I might point out that apparent obscuration is no less reality than apparent clarity Reality is certainly there regardless, but reality seen with obscuration leads to suffering, whereas reality seen with clarity will lead to the cessation of suffering. That's all I need to know and that is my witness. Mike From: Kristopher Grey k...@kgrey.com To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 16:11 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils I might point out that apparent obscuration is no less reality than apparent clarity. In doing so, this point only dances around itself - offers nothing you can't realize directly. What can anyone say in response that you will not directly experience (realize) as some aspect of this reality/realization- whether you realize it or not - just as when experiencing meditation/not meditation? This more or less business is you triangulating your position. Nothing more, nothing less. KG On 9/2/2012 5:57 AM, mike brown wrote: Edgar, Wouldn't you say tho, that reality is less obscured during, or just after, a long retreat of meditation? Mike From: Edgar Owen edgaro...@att.net To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 1:13 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils Mike, Well, it's reality either way, but that reality is always changing as happening continually flows through the present moment. But however it changes it is still reality Edgar On Sep 1, 2012, at 6:09 PM, mike brown wrote: Edgar, Would you say that the world (inner/outer) you look at now is the same as when you're at the end of a sesshin? Mike From: Edgar Owen edgaro...@att.net To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, 1 September 2012, 18:44 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: dancing
Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils
thank you edgar merle Hi Merle, The substance of all of reality is Buddha Nature = Tao = ontological energy = life force of reality or whatever one wants to call it. When this is experienced internally it's called Chi. Same stuff, just different location, and thus different manifestation.. Edgar On Sep 2, 2012, at 5:47 PM, Merle Lester wrote: this morn i go to tai chi class... and gather the chi energy.i think a spirit is out there mike..the chi is within what doth thee say edgar?..merle Edgar, Don't you contradict yourself here somewhat? You were previously critical of people from cultures where they may have a belief in dragons or rainbow serpents etc. Aren't these beliefs part of the Truth (Buddha Nature) as well then? Especially when they haven't had, or even when they have had, contact with contemporary science. If you believe in 'chi' energy, what's the difference in believing in 'spirit'? Mike From: Edgar Owen edgaro...@att.net To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 13:00 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils Bill! And that my friend is precisely the problem. Logic, like everything else that exists IS Buddha Nature. Because there is nothing that is NOT Buddha nature... I think we've honed into the absolute kernel and crux of the disagreement right here ... See what I'm saying? You adopt a dualistic view by denying part of what exists is part of Buddha Nature. I point out there is no such dualism because everything that exists is part of reality (Buddha Nature) by definition, including things such as logic and your daily life using logic making a living, that you deny is part of Buddha Nature. This is the MOST IMPORTANT post of mine to Bill! ever! I only hope this will be a super Kwatz moment and that Bill! won't try to avoid and ignore the koan as usual Edgar On Sep 2, 2012, at 7:32 AM, Bill! wrote: Edgar, Sometimes I think you don't read my posts. I NEVER said I don't use logic. I use it all the time. I make my living using it. I don't however mistake logic for Buddha Nature. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Bill!, Proving Bill! still uses his considerable intelligence to negotiate the rational world of forms contrary to what he claims and would have us believe :-) Edgar On Sep 2, 2012, at 4:46 AM, Bill! wrote: Bill, I've had a lot of practice trying to follow Edgar's posts. I'm sure you'll get the hang of it sooner or later. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, William Rintala brintala@ wrote: Thank you for that Edgar. I can follow your emails better if you give them to me a teaspoon at a time, unlike Bill! who seems to follow what you say with ease.  Bill not Bill! Find what makes your heart sing…and do it! From: Edgar Owen edgarowen@ To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sat, September 1, 2012 6:36:59 AM Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils  Joe and Merle, There is no 'goal' of enlightenment to be achieved without which you imagine you are incomplete There is no incompleteness. This understanding is an essential aspect of realization... Wham! Edgar On Aug 30, 2012, at 11:51 PM, Joe wrote:  Hiya, Merle, Nonetheless, practice formally if you are able. If you are not able, then find some way to do it. ;-) It's as important as that. Life is a little bit short, nowadays. If you report-back that it is all B.S., then we'll understand that it is so, for you... once you have given it your ALL, with a good teacher, and sangha. But I think you'll have a more positive experience, and report. In fact, I worry that you may develop attachments, especially in the realm, or area, of the Optical-sense. But when I see the paintings that afterwards result, coming from your studio, THAT will assuage my concerns, probably, and bath me in balm, I am sure. And this is what I look forward to. Yet, it's not selfishness, on my part. And, I am not attached to the possibility. But I have hopes that EVERYONE who wishes to practice under the best conditions may have their wish, and will awaken. Not just because I have done it, and have had the wonder and miracle of this chance a number of times, as many of us have, in company with so many others throughout History, and among our intimate acquaintances: but, because so many others have *not*. I know what I'm wishing you, and others, I mean. Otherwise... may the veiled-life suffice! One can't disparage where we are. One can only either
Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils
On 9/3/2012 5:31 PM, Merle Lester wrote: that's when zen is most needed mike...to get you through the day...merle Zen Angels preaching Zen Demons cursing No one hears any of it KG Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils
Merle, that's when zen is most needed mike...to get you through the day Should I take it straight or on the rocks? ; ) Mike From: Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, 3 September 2012, 22:31 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils that's when zen is most needed mike...to get you through the day...merle Ultimately, yes - in day to day living, no. At least not in the story of my life. It's so easy to claim Buddhahood when things are going well, but just watch that little house of cards coming crashing down when you get a nasty hemorrhoids on a hot, sweaty day or your girlfriend cheats on you. That's why even something as simple as being mindful of the breath can be the most difficult thing in the world in such circumstances. You can philosophise your way out of it here quite easily, but meanwhile back in the real world [insert exegesis on 'real world' here].. Mike From: Kristopher Grey k...@kgrey.com To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, 3 September 2012, 1:34 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils This matter of whether there is or isn't isn't someone to suffer is all smoke and mirrors. Suffering appears. This is clear enough. What is this notion of liberation from but self relating to self? What appears, appears. What of it? Clarity, selfless. No self that need to see into itself. No such conceptual contortions required. Don't settle for nothing. Don't attach to anything. This takes no effort. KG On 9/2/2012 5:35 PM, mike brown wrote: Kris, There is no one who suffers, but only after the realisation that there isn't even a mind for suffering to happen to is there liberation from it. Clarity here reads as insight. Mike From: Kristopher Grey k...@kgrey.com To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 20:23 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils Then you still know too much. ;) If it so clear as that, there is nothing to see. The 'obscuration' all that may show the way. What you are seeing as separate only appears to be. All a matter of how you see it. So who is leading who? Who suffers? In seeking perfection, it forever eludes. The clear minded are equally empty headed. Don't throw the Buddha out with the bathwater. KG PS - Expresses simpler/more obviously wordlessly - see: 'Wabi Sabi' - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wabi-sabi On 9/2/2012 12:32 PM, mike brown wrote: Kris, I might point out that apparent obscuration is no less reality than apparent clarity Reality is certainly there regardless, but reality seen with obscuration leads to suffering, whereas reality seen with clarity will lead to the cessation of suffering. That's all I need to know and that is my witness. Mike From: Kristopher Grey k...@kgrey.com To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 16:11 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils I might point out that apparent obscuration is no less reality than apparent clarity. In doing so, this point only dances around itself - offers nothing you can't realize directly. What can anyone say in response that you will not directly experience (realize) as some aspect of this reality/realization- whether you realize it or not - just as when experiencing meditation/not meditation? This more or less business is you triangulating your position. Nothing more, nothing less. KG On 9/2/2012 5:57 AM, mike brown wrote: Edgar, Wouldn't you say tho, that reality is less obscured during, or just after, a long retreat of meditation? Mike From: Edgar Owen edgaro...@att.net To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 1:13 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils Mike, Well, it's reality either way, but that reality is always changing as happening continually flows through the present moment. But however it changes it is still reality Edgar On Sep 1
Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils
Merle, Groovy??! Makes me sound like some hippy cat outta the 60s!,... Man. Mike-a-mondoo From: Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, 3 September 2012, 22:34 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils groovy..merle i'll show you my pics if you show me yours...merle
Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils
Edgar, Wouldn't you say tho, that reality is less obscured during, or just after, a long retreat of meditation? Mike From: Edgar Owen edgaro...@att.net To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 1:13 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils Mike, Well, it's reality either way, but that reality is always changing as happening continually flows through the present moment. But however it changes it is still reality Edgar On Sep 1, 2012, at 6:09 PM, mike brown wrote: Edgar, Would you say that the world (inner/outer) you look at now is the same as when you're at the end of a sesshin? Mike From: Edgar Owen edgaro...@att.net To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, 1 September 2012, 18:44 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils ED, Stop practicing and just BE your Buddha Nature! Edgar On Sep 1, 2012, at 12:22 PM, ED wrote: Edgar, Therefore, although each of us is complete, we need to practice diligently at all times with no objective in mind? --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Joe and Merle, There is no 'goal' of enlightenment to be achieved without which you imagine you are incomplete There is no incompleteness. This understanding is an essential aspect of realization... Wham! Edgar
Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils
Bill!, A great instruction, and is certainly direct, but Joshu's instructions were given to a monk who had probably been practicing meditation for a long time and was already 'ripe' for awakening to happen. Imagine how useful that instruction would be to a neophyte coming off the street asking about the search for truth or something similar. Joshu's instruction is just that - an instruction. That's why i believe Buddha's skilful means (upaya) is so useful as a teaching method. On the one side we can have the direct pointing to the Dharma (Zen) and on the other we can have Therevada Buddhism with it's more step by step instructions, such as following the Noble eightfold Path. The Buddha was very wise to understand that there are many different kinds of people/cultures/personalities etc. out there and no one method will work for all. I think it should be clear now that wash you bowls just isn't going to work for someone like ED. If you agree, what else could you say that might help him? Mike From: Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 9:48 Subject: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils ED, Mind if Joshu and I jump in? WASH YOUR BOWLS! That's how...Bill! (and Joshu) --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, ED seacrofter001@... wrote: Edgar, And how is this magic trick accomplished? --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: ED, Stop practicing and just BE your Buddha Nature! Edgar Edgar, Therefore, although each of us is complete, we need to practice diligently at all times with no objective in mind? --ED Joe and Merle, There is no 'goal' of enlightenment to be achieved without which you imagine you are incomplete There is no incompleteness. This understanding is an essential aspect of realization... Wham! Edgar
Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils
Bill!, Isn't it the Zen BuddhistForum, at least by implication? Isn't it fair to talk about comparisons? ED, Just sit. Don't think. Just sit. But if you do find yourself thinking, just come back gently to the breath. When you find your mind has become calm become mindful of how the breath (or any bodily sensations) arises and passes. How it is that there is no 'you' doing the breathing - rather the universe is breathing 'you'. Note how even pleasant sensations eventually pass and more unpleasant, or neutral, sensations take their place. With such mindfulness you may find you gain some insight into the 3 Characteristics of existence: impermanence, non-self, and the unsatisfactoriness of phenomena. With diligence and patience, you may become liberated from suffering. Not exactly pithy, I admit. And Zen is certainly direct in pointing to our True Nature. But wash your bowls, just sit and Just This! is also not 'it' either. So if we're going to have instructions/guides, then there is definitely a place for more descriptive ones (even tho the endgame will always be that they are ultimately dropped). The method is NOT the meditation. Mike From: Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 11:33 Subject: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils Mike, Point taken, but this is the Zen Forum, not the Theravada Forum or the Here-Have-Some-More-Rice-Gruel Forum. ED, Just sit. Don't think. Just sit. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusuboyo@... wrote: Bill!, A great instruction, and is certainly direct, but Joshu's instructions were given to a monk who had probably been practicing meditation for a long time and was already 'ripe' for awakening to happen. Imagine how useful that instruction would be to a neophyte coming off the street asking about the search for truth or something similar. Joshu's instruction is just that - an instruction. That's why i believe Buddha's skilful means (upaya) is so useful as a teaching method. On the one side we can have the direct pointing to the Dharma (Zen) and on the other we can have Therevada Buddhism with it's more step by step instructions, such as following the Noble eightfold Path. The Buddha was very wise to understand that there are many different kinds of people/cultures/personalities etc. out there and no one method will work for all. I think it should be clear now that wash you bowls just isn't going to work for someone like ED. If you agree, what else could you say that might help him? Mike From: Bill! BillSmart@... To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 9:48 Subject: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils  ED, Mind if Joshu and I jump in? WASH YOUR BOWLS! That's how...Bill! (and Joshu) --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, ED seacrofter001@ wrote: Edgar, And how is this magic trick accomplished? --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: ED, Stop practicing and just BE your Buddha Nature! Edgar Edgar, Therefore, although each of us is complete, we need to practice diligently at all times with no objective in mind? --ED Joe and Merle, There is no 'goal' of enlightenment to be achieved without which you imagine you are incomplete There is no incompleteness. This understanding is an essential aspect of realization... Wham! Edgar
Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils
Bill!, Sure. Wouldn't survive long without eating. I see Buddha's teachings as the chef and you and Edgar as the waiters tho. Bon appetite! Mike From: Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 12:16 Subject: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils Mike and ED, Or how about...Just continue to exchange posts with Edgar. He's got what seems to be an unlimited supply of rice gruel. He'll keep your bowl filled to the brim! ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Bill! BillSmart@... wrote: Mike, Point taken, but this is the Zen Forum, not the Theravada Forum or the Here-Have-Some-More-Rice-Gruel Forum. ED, Just sit. Don't think. Just sit. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusuboyo@ wrote: Bill!, A great instruction, and is certainly direct, but Joshu's instructions were given to a monk who had probably been practicing meditation for a long time and was already 'ripe' for awakening to happen. Imagine how useful that instruction would be to a neophyte coming off the street asking about the search for truth or something similar. Joshu's instruction is just that - an instruction. That's why i believe Buddha's skilful means (upaya) is so useful as a teaching method. On the one side we can have the direct pointing to the Dharma (Zen) and on the other we can have Therevada Buddhism with it's more step by step instructions, such as following the Noble eightfold Path. The Buddha was very wise to understand that there are many different kinds of people/cultures/personalities etc. out there and no one method will work for all. I think it should be clear now that wash you bowls just isn't going to work for someone like ED. If you agree, what else could you say that might help him? Mike From: Bill! BillSmart@ To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 9:48 Subject: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils  ED, Mind if Joshu and I jump in? WASH YOUR BOWLS! That's how...Bill! (and Joshu) --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, ED seacrofter001@ wrote: Edgar, And how is this magic trick accomplished? --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: ED, Stop practicing and just BE your Buddha Nature! Edgar Edgar, Therefore, although each of us is complete, we need to practice diligently at all times with no objective in mind? --ED Joe and Merle, There is no 'goal' of enlightenment to be achieved without which you imagine you are incomplete There is no incompleteness. This understanding is an essential aspect of realization... Wham! Edgar
Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils
Bill!, Proving Bill! still uses his considerable intelligence to negotiate the rational world of forms contrary to what he claims and would have us believe :-) Edgar On Sep 2, 2012, at 4:46 AM, Bill! wrote: Bill, I've had a lot of practice trying to follow Edgar's posts. I'm sure you'll get the hang of it sooner or later. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, William Rintala brintala@... wrote: Thank you for that Edgar. I can follow your emails better if you give them to me a teaspoon at a time, unlike Bill! who seems to follow what you say with ease.  Bill not Bill! Find what makes your heart sing…and do it! From: Edgar Owen edgarowen@... To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sat, September 1, 2012 6:36:59 AM Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils  Joe and Merle, There is no 'goal' of enlightenment to be achieved without which you imagine you are incomplete There is no incompleteness. This understanding is an essential aspect of realization... Wham! Edgar On Aug 30, 2012, at 11:51 PM, Joe wrote:  Hiya, Merle, Nonetheless, practice formally if you are able. If you are not able, then find some way to do it. ;-) It's as important as that. Life is a little bit short, nowadays. If you report-back that it is all B.S., then we'll understand that it is so, for you... once you have given it your ALL, with a good teacher, and sangha. But I think you'll have a more positive experience, and report. In fact, I worry that you may develop attachments, especially in the realm, or area, of the Optical-sense. But when I see the paintings that afterwards result, coming from your studio, THAT will assuage my concerns, probably, and bath me in balm, I am sure. And this is what I look forward to. Yet, it's not selfishness, on my part. And, I am not attached to the possibility. But I have hopes that EVERYONE who wishes to practice under the best conditions may have their wish, and will awaken. Not just because I have done it, and have had the wonder and miracle of this chance a number of times, as many of us have, in company with so many others throughout History, and among our intimate acquaintances: but, because so many others have *not*. I know what I'm wishing you, and others, I mean. Otherwise... may the veiled-life suffice! One can't disparage where we are. One can only either realize, or not realize. Realize means realizing where we are already, but being the most clear about it. That's not a movement to somewhere else, but it is a very, very big step, as momentous as the late Neil Armstrong's. Will you trust me, about this, in this? I was 17 when he and Buzz landed, and walked, and Mike Collins orbited, station-keeping for them. Life was different after that. I could write volumes about how. Maybe I'm a relic. Maybe, someday, to be appreciated. ;-) --Joe Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: ..am i on track.?
Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils
Mike, There are certainly times it is, but that can happen at any time Realization is not just something that occurs inside monastery walls... It has nothing to do with that... It's just opening to reality and reality is everywhere... Edgar On Sep 2, 2012, at 5:57 AM, mike brown wrote: Edgar, Wouldn't you say tho, that reality is less obscured during, or just after, a long retreat of meditation? Mike From: Edgar Owen edgaro...@att.net To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 1:13 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils Mike, Well, it's reality either way, but that reality is always changing as happening continually flows through the present moment. But however it changes it is still reality Edgar On Sep 1, 2012, at 6:09 PM, mike brown wrote: Edgar, Would you say that the world (inner/outer) you look at now is the same as when you're at the end of a sesshin? Mike From: Edgar Owen edgaro...@att.net To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, 1 September 2012, 18:44 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils ED, Stop practicing and just BE your Buddha Nature! Edgar On Sep 1, 2012, at 12:22 PM, ED wrote: Edgar, Therefore, although each of us is complete, we need to practice diligently at all times with no objective in mind? --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Joe and Merle, There is no 'goal' of enlightenment to be achieved without which you imagine you are incomplete There is no incompleteness. This understanding is an essential aspect of realization... Wham! Edgar
Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils
Mike, Yes, the problem with these pithy 'in crowd' Zen sayings is that bowls can be washed WITHOUT realization just as they can be WITH realization... Edgar On Sep 2, 2012, at 6:19 AM, mike brown wrote: Bill!, A great instruction, and is certainly direct, but Joshu's instructions were given to a monk who had probably been practicing meditation for a long time and was already 'ripe' for awakening to happen. Imagine how useful that instruction would be to a neophyte coming off the street asking about the search for truth or something similar. Joshu's instruction is just that - an instruction. That's why i believe Buddha's skilful means (upaya) is so useful as a teaching method. On the one side we can have the direct pointing to the Dharma (Zen) and on the other we can have Therevada Buddhism with it's more step by step instructions, such as following the Noble eightfold Path. The Buddha was very wise to understand that there are many different kinds of people/cultures/personalities etc. out there and no one method will work for all. I think it should be clear now that wash you bowls just isn't going to work for someone like ED. If you agree, what else could you say that might help him? Mike From: Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 9:48 Subject: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils ED, Mind if Joshu and I jump in? WASH YOUR BOWLS! That's how...Bill! (and Joshu) --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, ED seacrofter001@... wrote: Edgar, And how is this magic trick accomplished? --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: ED, Stop practicing and just BE your Buddha Nature! Edgar Edgar, Therefore, although each of us is complete, we need to practice diligently at all times with no objective in mind? --ED Joe and Merle, There is no 'goal' of enlightenment to be achieved without which you imagine you are incomplete There is no incompleteness. This understanding is an essential aspect of realization... Wham! Edgar
Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils
Bill!, If it was the 'zen Forum', then what would there be to discuss here? ; ) As for the 3 Characteristics, you're quite correct about it ultimately being rice-gruel. But until we can survive without food then it serves a nutritional purpose. Mike From: Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 12:26 Subject: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils Mike, It is the Yahoo! Zen Forum, but the description describes it as Zen Buddhism. I tried to get that changed but was voted down. Nice concise zazen instructions. I noticed however you threw a little rice gruel in the bowl with the '3 Characteristics of Existence'. I thought that was unnecessary, but that's just me. No harm, no foul I guess but I hope that doesn't dry out and stick to the sides of the bowl because it will also need to be cleaned out some day. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusuboyo@... wrote: Bill!, Isn't it the Zen BuddhistForum, at least by implication? Isn't it fair to talk about comparisons? ED, Just sit. Don't think. Just sit. But if you do find yourself thinking, just come back gently to the breath. When you find your mind has become calm become mindful of how the breath (or any bodily sensations) arises and passes. How it is that there is no 'you' doing the breathing - rather the universe is breathing 'you'. Note how even pleasant sensations eventually pass and more unpleasant, or neutral, sensations take their place. With such mindfulness you may find you gain some insight into the 3 Characteristics of existence: impermanence, non-self, and the unsatisfactoriness of phenomena. With diligence and patience, you may become liberated from suffering. Not exactly pithy, I admit. And Zen is certainly direct in pointing to our True Nature. But wash your bowls, just sit and Just This! is also not 'it' either. So if we're going to have instructions/guides, then there is definitely a place for more descriptive ones (even tho the endgame will always be that they are ultimately dropped). The method is NOT the meditation. Mike From: Bill! BillSmart@... To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 11:33 Subject: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils  Mike, Point taken, but this is the Zen Forum, not the Theravada Forum or the Here-Have-Some-More-Rice-Gruel Forum. ED, Just sit. Don't think. Just sit. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusuboyo@ wrote: Bill!, A great instruction, and is certainly direct, but Joshu's instructions were given to a monk who had probably been practicing meditation for a long time and was already 'ripe' for awakening to happen. Imagine how useful that instruction would be to a neophyte coming off the street asking about the search for truth or something similar. Joshu's instruction is just that - an instruction. That's why i believe Buddha's skilful means (upaya) is so useful as a teaching method. On the one side we can have the direct pointing to the Dharma (Zen) and on the other we can have Therevada Buddhism with it's more step by step instructions, such as following the Noble eightfold Path. The Buddha was very wise to understand that there are many different kinds of people/cultures/personalities etc. out there and no one method will work for all. I think it should be clear now that wash you bowls just isn't going to work for someone like ED. If you agree, what else could you say that might help him? Mike From: Bill! BillSmart@ To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 9:48 Subject: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils  ED, Mind if Joshu and I jump in? WASH YOUR BOWLS! That's how...Bill! (and Joshu) --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, ED seacrofter001@ wrote: Edgar, And how is this magic trick accomplished? --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: ED, Stop practicing and just BE your Buddha Nature! Edgar Edgar, Therefore, although each of us is complete, we need to practice diligently at all times with no objective in mind? --ED Joe and Merle, There is no 'goal' of enlightenment to be achieved without which you imagine you are incomplete There is no incompleteness. This understanding is an essential aspect of realization... Wham! Edgar
Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils
Bill!, lol at Edgar bringing food that wasn't even ordered! I also like your description as you being the (zen) dish-washer. I'm quite content for now just eating the meal Edgar brings me and the plates you wash after me. Thanks! Mike From: Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 12:29 Subject: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils Mike, I see it more like Edgar is the waiter bringing food (even some you didn't order) and keeping your plate full. I'm more like the dishwasher trying my best to scrape all the excess food off the plates. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusuboyo@... wrote: Bill!, Sure. Wouldn't survive long without eating. I see Buddha's teachings as the chef and you and Edgar as the waiters tho. Bon appetite! Mike From: Bill! BillSmart@... To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 12:16 Subject: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils  Mike and ED, Or how about...Just continue to exchange posts with Edgar. He's got what seems to be an unlimited supply of rice gruel. He'll keep your bowl filled to the brim! ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Bill! BillSmart@ wrote: Mike, Point taken, but this is the Zen Forum, not the Theravada Forum or the Here-Have-Some-More-Rice-Gruel Forum. ED, Just sit. Don't think. Just sit. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusuboyo@ wrote: Bill!, A great instruction, and is certainly direct, but Joshu's instructions were given to a monk who had probably been practicing meditation for a long time and was already 'ripe' for awakening to happen. Imagine how useful that instruction would be to a neophyte coming off the street asking about the search for truth or something similar. Joshu's instruction is just that - an instruction. That's why i believe Buddha's skilful means (upaya) is so useful as a teaching method. On the one side we can have the direct pointing to the Dharma (Zen) and on the other we can have Therevada Buddhism with it's more step by step instructions, such as following the Noble eightfold Path. The Buddha was very wise to understand that there are many different kinds of people/cultures/personalities etc. out there and no one method will work for all. I think it should be clear now that wash you bowls just isn't going to work for someone like ED. If you agree, what else could you say that might help him? Mike From: Bill! BillSmart@ To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 9:48 Subject: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils  ED, Mind if Joshu and I jump in? WASH YOUR BOWLS! That's how...Bill! (and Joshu) --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, ED seacrofter001@ wrote: Edgar, And how is this magic trick accomplished? --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: ED, Stop practicing and just BE your Buddha Nature! Edgar Edgar, Therefore, although each of us is complete, we need to practice diligently at all times with no objective in mind? --ED Joe and Merle, There is no 'goal' of enlightenment to be achieved without which you imagine you are incomplete There is no incompleteness. This understanding is an essential aspect of realization... Wham! Edgar
Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils
Bill! Zen is not a matter of not thinking... It's a matter of thinking and doing everything else with realization. Don't just sit. Do everything in daily life with realization... That's Zen.. Zen is not a matter of 'sitting'. Get up off your ass and do some real Zen! Edgar On Sep 2, 2012, at 6:33 AM, Bill! wrote: Mike, Point taken, but this is the Zen Forum, not the Theravada Forum or the Here-Have-Some-More-Rice-Gruel Forum. ED, Just sit. Don't think. Just sit. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusuboyo@... wrote: Bill!, A great instruction, and is certainly direct, but Joshu's instructions were given to a monk who had probably been practicing meditation for a long time and was already 'ripe' for awakening to happen. Imagine how useful that instruction would be to a neophyte coming off the street asking about the search for truth or something similar. Joshu's instruction is just that - an instruction. That's why i believe Buddha's skilful means (upaya) is so useful as a teaching method. On the one side we can have the direct pointing to the Dharma (Zen) and on the other we can have Therevada Buddhism with it's more step by step instructions, such as following the Noble eightfold Path. The Buddha was very wise to understand that there are many different kinds of people/cultures/personalities etc. out there and no one method will work for all. I think it should be clear now that wash you bowls just isn't going to work for someone like ED. If you agree, what else could you say that might help him? Mike From: Bill! BillSmart@... To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 9:48 Subject: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils  ED, Mind if Joshu and I jump in? WASH YOUR BOWLS! That's how...Bill! (and Joshu) --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, ED seacrofter001@ wrote: Edgar, And how is this magic trick accomplished? --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: ED, Stop practicing and just BE your Buddha Nature! Edgar Edgar, Therefore, although each of us is complete, we need to practice diligently at all times with no objective in mind? --ED Joe and Merle, There is no 'goal' of enlightenment to be achieved without which you imagine you are incomplete There is no incompleteness. This understanding is an essential aspect of realization... Wham! Edgar
Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils
Mike, and Bill! The problem with wash your bowls and other pithy Zen aphorisms is that it's equally possible to wash bowls without realization as it is with realization.. Edgar On Sep 2, 2012, at 6:19 AM, mike brown wrote: Bill!, A great instruction, and is certainly direct, but Joshu's instructions were given to a monk who had probably been practicing meditation for a long time and was already 'ripe' for awakening to happen. Imagine how useful that instruction would be to a neophyte coming off the street asking about the search for truth or something similar. Joshu's instruction is just that - an instruction. That's why i believe Buddha's skilful means (upaya) is so useful as a teaching method. On the one side we can have the direct pointing to the Dharma (Zen) and on the other we can have Therevada Buddhism with it's more step by step instructions, such as following the Noble eightfold Path. The Buddha was very wise to understand that there are many different kinds of people/cultures/personalities etc. out there and no one method will work for all. I think it should be clear now that wash you bowls just isn't going to work for someone like ED. If you agree, what else could you say that might help him? Mike From: Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 9:48 Subject: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils ED, Mind if Joshu and I jump in? WASH YOUR BOWLS! That's how...Bill! (and Joshu) --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, ED seacrofter001@... wrote: Edgar, And how is this magic trick accomplished? --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: ED, Stop practicing and just BE your Buddha Nature! Edgar Edgar, Therefore, although each of us is complete, we need to practice diligently at all times with no objective in mind? --ED Joe and Merle, There is no 'goal' of enlightenment to be achieved without which you imagine you are incomplete There is no incompleteness. This understanding is an essential aspect of realization... Wham! Edgar
Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils
Edgar, Of course Realisation is not something that happens only inside monastry walls, but it also doesn't come from understanding words like ontological and cognitive simulation model either. Mike From: Edgar Owen edgaro...@att.net To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 12:31 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils Mike, There are certainly times it is, but that can happen at any time Realization is not just something that occurs inside monastery walls... It has nothing to do with that... It's just opening to reality and reality is everywhere... Edgar On Sep 2, 2012, at 5:57 AM, mike brown wrote: Edgar, Wouldn't you say tho, that reality is less obscured during, or just after, a long retreat of meditation? Mike From: Edgar Owen edgaro...@att.net To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 1:13 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils Mike, Well, it's reality either way, but that reality is always changing as happening continually flows through the present moment. But however it changes it is still reality Edgar On Sep 1, 2012, at 6:09 PM, mike brown wrote: Edgar, Would you say that the world (inner/outer) you look at now is the same as when you're at the end of a sesshin? Mike From: Edgar Owen edgaro...@att.net To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, 1 September 2012, 18:44 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils ED, Stop practicing and just BE your Buddha Nature! Edgar On Sep 1, 2012, at 12:22 PM, ED wrote: Edgar, Therefore, although each of us is complete, we need to practice diligently at all times with no objective in mind? --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Joe and Merle, There is no 'goal' of enlightenment to be achieved without which you imagine you are incomplete There is no incompleteness. This understanding is an essential aspect of realization... Wham! Edgar
Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils
Edgar, Exactly. Mike From: Edgar Owen edgaro...@att.net To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 12:35 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils Mike, Yes, the problem with these pithy 'in crowd' Zen sayings is that bowls can be washed WITHOUT realization just as they can be WITH realization... Edgar On Sep 2, 2012, at 6:19 AM, mike brown wrote: Bill!, A great instruction, and is certainly direct, but Joshu's instructions were given to a monk who had probably been practicing meditation for a long time and was already 'ripe' for awakening to happen. Imagine how useful that instruction would be to a neophyte coming off the street asking about the search for truth or something similar. Joshu's instruction is just that - an instruction. That's why i believe Buddha's skilful means (upaya) is so useful as a teaching method. On the one side we can have the direct pointing to the Dharma (Zen) and on the other we can have Therevada Buddhism with it's more step by step instructions, such as following the Noble eightfold Path. The Buddha was very wise to understand that there are many different kinds of people/cultures/personalities etc. out there and no one method will work for all. I think it should be clear now that wash you bowls just isn't going to work for someone like ED. If you agree, what else could you say that might help him? Mike From: Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 9:48 Subject: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils ED, Mind if Joshu and I jump in? WASH YOUR BOWLS! That's how...Bill! (and Joshu) --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, ED seacrofter001@... wrote: Edgar, And how is this magic trick accomplished? --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: ED, Stop practicing and just BE your Buddha Nature! Edgar Edgar, Therefore, although each of us is complete, we need to practice diligently at all times with no objective in mind? --ED Joe and Merle, There is no 'goal' of enlightenment to be achieved without which you imagine you are incomplete There is no incompleteness. This understanding is an essential aspect of realization... Wham! Edgar
Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils
Bill!, Mike and ED, Yes, I'll continually fill your bowls with the gruel of realization while Bill! continually washes it right out of your bowls! again :-) EDgar On Sep 2, 2012, at 7:16 AM, Bill! wrote: Mike and ED, Or how about...Just continue to exchange posts with Edgar. He's got what seems to be an unlimited supply of rice gruel. He'll keep your bowl filled to the brim! ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Bill! BillSmart@... wrote: Mike, Point taken, but this is the Zen Forum, not the Theravada Forum or the Here-Have-Some-More-Rice-Gruel Forum. ED, Just sit. Don't think. Just sit. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusuboyo@ wrote: Bill!, A great instruction, and is certainly direct, but Joshu's instructions were given to a monk who had probably been practicing meditation for a long time and was already 'ripe' for awakening to happen. Imagine how useful that instruction would be to a neophyte coming off the street asking about the search for truth or something similar. Joshu's instruction is just that - an instruction. That's why i believe Buddha's skilful means (upaya) is so useful as a teaching method. On the one side we can have the direct pointing to the Dharma (Zen) and on the other we can have Therevada Buddhism with it's more step by step instructions, such as following the Noble eightfold Path. The Buddha was very wise to understand that there are many different kinds of people/cultures/personalities etc. out there and no one method will work for all. I think it should be clear now that wash you bowls just isn't going to work for someone like ED. If you agree, what else could you say that might help him? Mike From: Bill! BillSmart@ To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 9:48 Subject: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils  ED, Mind if Joshu and I jump in? WASH YOUR BOWLS! That's how...Bill! (and Joshu) --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, ED seacrofter001@ wrote: Edgar, And how is this magic trick accomplished? --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: ED, Stop practicing and just BE your Buddha Nature! Edgar Edgar, Therefore, although each of us is complete, we need to practice diligently at all times with no objective in mind? --ED Joe and Merle, There is no 'goal' of enlightenment to be achieved without which you imagine you are incomplete There is no incompleteness. This understanding is an essential aspect of realization... Wham! Edgar
Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils
There's still a bowl? From: Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 12:51 Subject: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils A clean bowl is realization...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusuboyo@... wrote: Edgar, Exactly. Mike From: Edgar Owen edgarowen@... To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 12:35 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils  Mike, Yes, the problem with these pithy 'in crowd' Zen sayings is that bowls can be washed WITHOUT realization just as they can be WITH realization... Edgar On Sep 2, 2012, at 6:19 AM, mike brown wrote:  Bill!, A great instruction, and is certainly direct, but Joshu's instructions were given to a monk who had probably been practicing meditation for a long time and was already 'ripe' for awakening to happen. Imagine how useful that instruction would be to a neophyte coming off the street asking about the search for truth or something similar. Joshu's instruction is just that - an instruction. That's why i believe Buddha's skilful means (upaya) is so useful as a teaching method. On the one side we can have the direct pointing to the Dharma (Zen) and on the other we can have Therevada Buddhism with it's more step by step instructions, such as following the Noble eightfold Path. The Buddha was very wise to understand that there are many different kinds of people/cultures/personalities etc. out there and no one method will work for all. I think it should be clear now that wash you bowls just isn't going to work for someone like ED. If you agree, what else could you say that might help him? Mike From: Bill! BillSmart@... To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 9:48 Subject: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils  ED, Mind if Joshu and I jump in? WASH YOUR BOWLS! That's how...Bill! (and Joshu) --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, ED seacrofter001@ wrote: Edgar, And how is this magic trick accomplished? --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: ED, Stop practicing and just BE your Buddha Nature! Edgar Edgar, Therefore, although each of us is complete, we need to practice diligently at all times with no objective in mind? --ED Joe and Merle, There is no 'goal' of enlightenment to be achieved without which you imagine you are incomplete There is no incompleteness. This understanding is an essential aspect of realization... Wham! Edgar
Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils
Naked Yoga Forum? If that's run by you and Edgar, then I hope it's strictly conducted in the written medium only. God forbid. Mike From: Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 12:53 Subject: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils I agree with Edgar! ...and that's how we pump-up the post count so we can increase our commission checks and some day retire to become moderators of the Yahoo! Naked Yoga Forum. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Bill!, Mike and ED, Yes, I'll continually fill your bowls with the gruel of realization while Bill! continually washes it right out of your bowls! again :-) EDgar On Sep 2, 2012, at 7:16 AM, Bill! wrote: Mike and ED, Or how about...Just continue to exchange posts with Edgar. He's got what seems to be an unlimited supply of rice gruel. He'll keep your bowl filled to the brim! ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Bill! BillSmart@ wrote: Mike, Point taken, but this is the Zen Forum, not the Theravada Forum or the Here-Have-Some-More-Rice-Gruel Forum. ED, Just sit. Don't think. Just sit. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusuboyo@ wrote: Bill!, A great instruction, and is certainly direct, but Joshu's instructions were given to a monk who had probably been practicing meditation for a long time and was already 'ripe' for awakening to happen. Imagine how useful that instruction would be to a neophyte coming off the street asking about the search for truth or something similar. Joshu's instruction is just that - an instruction. That's why i believe Buddha's skilful means (upaya) is so useful as a teaching method. On the one side we can have the direct pointing to the Dharma (Zen) and on the other we can have Therevada Buddhism with it's more step by step instructions, such as following the Noble eightfold Path. The Buddha was very wise to understand that there are many different kinds of people/cultures/personalities etc. out there and no one method will work for all. I think it should be clear now that wash you bowls just isn't going to work for someone like ED. If you agree, what else could you say that might help him? Mike From: Bill! BillSmart@ To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 9:48 Subject: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils  ED, Mind if Joshu and I jump in? WASH YOUR BOWLS! That's how...Bill! (and Joshu) --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, ED seacrofter001@ wrote: Edgar, And how is this magic trick accomplished? --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: ED, Stop practicing and just BE your Buddha Nature! Edgar Edgar, Therefore, although each of us is complete, we need to practice diligently at all times with no objective in mind? --ED Joe and Merle, There is no 'goal' of enlightenment to be achieved without which you imagine you are incomplete There is no incompleteness. This understanding is an essential aspect of realization... Wham! Edgar
Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils
Bill! And that my friend is precisely the problem. Logic, like everything else that exists IS Buddha Nature. Because there is nothing that is NOT Buddha nature... I think we've honed into the absolute kernel and crux of the disagreement right here ... See what I'm saying? You adopt a dualistic view by denying part of what exists is part of Buddha Nature. I point out there is no such dualism because everything that exists is part of reality (Buddha Nature) by definition, including things such as logic and your daily life using logic making a living, that you deny is part of Buddha Nature. This is the MOST IMPORTANT post of mine to Bill! ever! I only hope this will be a super Kwatz moment and that Bill! won't try to avoid and ignore the koan as usual Edgar On Sep 2, 2012, at 7:32 AM, Bill! wrote: Edgar, Sometimes I think you don't read my posts. I NEVER said I don't use logic. I use it all the time. I make my living using it. I don't however mistake logic for Buddha Nature. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Bill!, Proving Bill! still uses his considerable intelligence to negotiate the rational world of forms contrary to what he claims and would have us believe :-) Edgar On Sep 2, 2012, at 4:46 AM, Bill! wrote: Bill, I've had a lot of practice trying to follow Edgar's posts. I'm sure you'll get the hang of it sooner or later. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, William Rintala brintala@ wrote: Thank you for that Edgar. I can follow your emails better if you give them to me a teaspoon at a time, unlike Bill! who seems to follow what you say with ease.  Bill not Bill! Find what makes your heart sing…and do it! From: Edgar Owen edgarowen@ To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sat, September 1, 2012 6:36:59 AM Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils  Joe and Merle, There is no 'goal' of enlightenment to be achieved without which you imagine you are incomplete There is no incompleteness. This understanding is an essential aspect of realization... Wham! Edgar On Aug 30, 2012, at 11:51 PM, Joe wrote:  Hiya, Merle, Nonetheless, practice formally if you are able. If you are not able, then find some way to do it. ;-) It's as important as that. Life is a little bit short, nowadays. If you report-back that it is all B.S., then we'll understand that it is so, for you... once you have given it your ALL, with a good teacher, and sangha. But I think you'll have a more positive experience, and report. In fact, I worry that you may develop attachments, especially in the realm, or area, of the Optical-sense. But when I see the paintings that afterwards result, coming from your studio, THAT will assuage my concerns, probably, and bath me in balm, I am sure. And this is what I look forward to. Yet, it's not selfishness, on my part. And, I am not attached to the possibility. But I have hopes that EVERYONE who wishes to practice under the best conditions may have their wish, and will awaken. Not just because I have done it, and have had the wonder and miracle of this chance a number of times, as many of us have, in company with so many others throughout History, and among our intimate acquaintances: but, because so many others have *not*. I know what I'm wishing you, and others, I mean. Otherwise... may the veiled-life suffice! One can't disparage where we are. One can only either realize, or not realize. Realize means realizing where we are already, but being the most clear about it. That's not a movement to somewhere else, but it is a very, very big step, as momentous as the late Neil Armstrong's. Will you trust me, about this, in this? I was 17 when he and Buzz landed, and walked, and Mike Collins orbited, station-keeping for them. Life was different after that. I could write volumes about how. Maybe I'm a relic. Maybe, someday, to be appreciated. ;-) --Joe Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: ..am i on track.?
Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils
Mike and Bill!, Yes I loved that line of Bill!'s too! Edgar On Sep 2, 2012, at 7:39 AM, mike brown wrote: Bill!, lol at Edgar bringing food that wasn't even ordered! I also like your description as you being the (zen) dish-washer. I'm quite content for now just eating the meal Edgar brings me and the plates you wash after me. Thanks! Mike From: Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 12:29 Subject: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils Mike, I see it more like Edgar is the waiter bringing food (even some you didn't order) and keeping your plate full. I'm more like the dishwasher trying my best to scrape all the excess food off the plates. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusuboyo@... wrote: Bill!, Sure. Wouldn't survive long without eating. I see Buddha's teachings as the chef and you and Edgar as the waiters tho. Bon appetite! Mike From: Bill! BillSmart@... To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 12:16 Subject: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils  Mike and ED, Or how about...Just continue to exchange posts with Edgar. He's got what seems to be an unlimited supply of rice gruel. He'll keep your bowl filled to the brim! ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Bill! BillSmart@ wrote: Mike, Point taken, but this is the Zen Forum, not the Theravada Forum or the Here-Have-Some-More-Rice-Gruel Forum. ED, Just sit. Don't think. Just sit. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusuboyo@ wrote: Bill!, A great instruction, and is certainly direct, but Joshu's instructions were given to a monk who had probably been practicing meditation for a long time and was already 'ripe' for awakening to happen. Imagine how useful that instruction would be to a neophyte coming off the street asking about the search for truth or something similar. Joshu's instruction is just that - an instruction. That's why i believe Buddha's skilful means (upaya) is so useful as a teaching method. On the one side we can have the direct pointing to the Dharma (Zen) and on the other we can have Therevada Buddhism with it's more step by step instructions, such as following the Noble eightfold Path. The Buddha was very wise to understand that there are many different kinds of people/cultures/personalities etc. out there and no one method will work for all. I think it should be clear now that wash you bowls just isn't going to work for someone like ED. If you agree, what else could you say that might help him? Mike From: Bill! BillSmart@ To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 9:48 Subject: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils  ED, Mind if Joshu and I jump in? WASH YOUR BOWLS! That's how...Bill! (and Joshu) --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, ED seacrofter001@ wrote: Edgar, And how is this magic trick accomplished? --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: ED, Stop practicing and just BE your Buddha Nature! Edgar Edgar, Therefore, although each of us is complete, we need to practice diligently at all times with no objective in mind? --ED Joe and Merle, There is no 'goal' of enlightenment to be achieved without which you imagine you are incomplete There is no incompleteness. This understanding is an essential aspect of realization... Wham! Edgar
Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils
MIke, Those words are fingers providing directions to the landing pad to the moon. EDgar On Sep 2, 2012, at 7:46 AM, mike brown wrote: Edgar, Of course Realisation is not something that happens only inside monastry walls, but it also doesn't come from understanding words like ontological and cognitive simulation model either. Mike From: Edgar Owen edgaro...@att.net To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 12:31 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils Mike, There are certainly times it is, but that can happen at any time Realization is not just something that occurs inside monastery walls... It has nothing to do with that... It's just opening to reality and reality is everywhere... Edgar On Sep 2, 2012, at 5:57 AM, mike brown wrote: Edgar, Wouldn't you say tho, that reality is less obscured during, or just after, a long retreat of meditation? Mike From: Edgar Owen edgaro...@att.net To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 1:13 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils Mike, Well, it's reality either way, but that reality is always changing as happening continually flows through the present moment. But however it changes it is still reality Edgar On Sep 1, 2012, at 6:09 PM, mike brown wrote: Edgar, Would you say that the world (inner/outer) you look at now is the same as when you're at the end of a sesshin? Mike From: Edgar Owen edgaro...@att.net To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, 1 September 2012, 18:44 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils ED, Stop practicing and just BE your Buddha Nature! Edgar On Sep 1, 2012, at 12:22 PM, ED wrote: Edgar, Therefore, although each of us is complete, we need to practice diligently at all times with no objective in mind? --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Joe and Merle, There is no 'goal' of enlightenment to be achieved without which you imagine you are incomplete There is no incompleteness. This understanding is an essential aspect of realization... Wham! Edgar
Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils
Bill! Completely wrong! That's the view that was rejected by the master who chose Hui Neng over the monk who claimed Zen was keeping the mirror free of dust Read Hui Neng's poem again. There is NO mirror that needs dusting to keep it clean. There is NO bowl that needs to be washed! Edgar On Sep 2, 2012, at 7:51 AM, Bill! wrote: A clean bowl is realization...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusuboyo@... wrote: Edgar, Exactly. Mike From: Edgar Owen edgarowen@... To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 12:35 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils  Mike, Yes, the problem with these pithy 'in crowd' Zen sayings is that bowls can be washed WITHOUT realization just as they can be WITH realization... Edgar On Sep 2, 2012, at 6:19 AM, mike brown wrote:  Bill!, A great instruction, and is certainly direct, but Joshu's instructions were given to a monk who had probably been practicing meditation for a long time and was already 'ripe' for awakening to happen. Imagine how useful that instruction would be to a neophyte coming off the street asking about the search for truth or something similar. Joshu's instruction is just that - an instruction. That's why i believe Buddha's skilful means (upaya) is so useful as a teaching method. On the one side we can have the direct pointing to the Dharma (Zen) and on the other we can have Therevada Buddhism with it's more step by step instructions, such as following the Noble eightfold Path. The Buddha was very wise to understand that there are many different kinds of people/cultures/personalities etc. out there and no one method will work for all. I think it should be clear now that wash you bowls just isn't going to work for someone like ED. If you agree, what else could you say that might help him? Mike From: Bill! BillSmart@... To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 9:48 Subject: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils  ED, Mind if Joshu and I jump in? WASH YOUR BOWLS! That's how...Bill! (and Joshu) --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, ED seacrofter001@ wrote: Edgar, And how is this magic trick accomplished? --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: ED, Stop practicing and just BE your Buddha Nature! Edgar Edgar, Therefore, although each of us is complete, we need to practice diligently at all times with no objective in mind? --ED Joe and Merle, There is no 'goal' of enlightenment to be achieved without which you imagine you are incomplete There is no incompleteness. This understanding is an essential aspect of realization... Wham! Edgar
Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils
Mike, You mean you haven't seen Bill's naked zazen photos? :-) Edgar On Sep 2, 2012, at 7:59 AM, mike brown wrote: Naked Yoga Forum? If that's run by you and Edgar, then I hope it's strictly conducted in the written medium only. God forbid. Mike From: Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 12:53 Subject: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils I agree with Edgar! ...and that's how we pump-up the post count so we can increase our commission checks and some day retire to become moderators of the Yahoo! Naked Yoga Forum. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Bill!, Mike and ED, Yes, I'll continually fill your bowls with the gruel of realization while Bill! continually washes it right out of your bowls! again :-) EDgar On Sep 2, 2012, at 7:16 AM, Bill! wrote: Mike and ED, Or how about...Just continue to exchange posts with Edgar. He's got what seems to be an unlimited supply of rice gruel. He'll keep your bowl filled to the brim! ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Bill! BillSmart@ wrote: Mike, Point taken, but this is the Zen Forum, not the Theravada Forum or the Here-Have-Some-More-Rice-Gruel Forum. ED, Just sit. Don't think. Just sit. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusuboyo@ wrote: Bill!, A great instruction, and is certainly direct, but Joshu's instructions were given to a monk who had probably been practicing meditation for a long time and was already 'ripe' for awakening to happen. Imagine how useful that instruction would be to a neophyte coming off the street asking about the search for truth or something similar. Joshu's instruction is just that - an instruction. That's why i believe Buddha's skilful means (upaya) is so useful as a teaching method. On the one side we can have the direct pointing to the Dharma (Zen) and on the other we can have Therevada Buddhism with it's more step by step instructions, such as following the Noble eightfold Path. The Buddha was very wise to understand that there are many different kinds of people/cultures/personalities etc. out there and no one method will work for all. I think it should be clear now that wash you bowls just isn't going to work for someone like ED. If you agree, what else could you say that might help him? Mike From: Bill! BillSmart@ To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 9:48 Subject: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils  ED, Mind if Joshu and I jump in? WASH YOUR BOWLS! That's how...Bill! (and Joshu) --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, ED seacrofter001@ wrote: Edgar, And how is this magic trick accomplished? --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: ED, Stop practicing and just BE your Buddha Nature! Edgar Edgar, Therefore, although each of us is complete, we need to practice diligently at all times with no objective in mind? --ED Joe and Merle, There is no 'goal' of enlightenment to be achieved without which you imagine you are incomplete There is no incompleteness. This understanding is an essential aspect of realization... Wham! Edgar
Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils
Edgar, Don't you contradict yourself here somewhat? You were previously critical of people from cultures where they may have a belief in dragons or rainbow serpents etc. Aren't these beliefs part of the Truth (Buddha Nature) as well then? Especially when they haven't had, or even when they have had, contact with contemporary science. If you believe in 'chi' energy, what's the difference in believing in 'spirit'? Mike From: Edgar Owen edgaro...@att.net To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 13:00 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils Bill! And that my friend is precisely the problem. Logic, like everything else that exists IS Buddha Nature. Because there is nothing that is NOT Buddha nature... I think we've honed into the absolute kernel and crux of the disagreement right here ... See what I'm saying? You adopt a dualistic view by denying part of what exists is part of Buddha Nature. I point out there is no such dualism because everything that exists is part of reality (Buddha Nature) by definition, including things such as logic and your daily life using logic making a living, that you deny is part of Buddha Nature. This is the MOST IMPORTANT post of mine to Bill! ever! I only hope this will be a super Kwatz moment and that Bill! won't try to avoid and ignore the koan as usual Edgar On Sep 2, 2012, at 7:32 AM, Bill! wrote: Edgar, Sometimes I think you don't read my posts. I NEVER said I don't use logic. I use it all the time. I make my living using it. I don't however mistake logic for Buddha Nature. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Bill!, Proving Bill! still uses his considerable intelligence to negotiate the rational world of forms contrary to what he claims and would have us believe :-) Edgar On Sep 2, 2012, at 4:46 AM, Bill! wrote: Bill, I've had a lot of practice trying to follow Edgar's posts. I'm sure you'll get the hang of it sooner or later. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, William Rintala brintala@ wrote: Thank you for that Edgar. I can follow your emails better if you give them to me a teaspoon at a time, unlike Bill! who seems to follow what you say with ease.  Bill not Bill! Find what makes your heart sing…and do it! From: Edgar Owen edgarowen@ To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sat, September 1, 2012 6:36:59 AM Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils  Joe and Merle, There is no 'goal' of enlightenment to be achieved without which you imagine you are incomplete There is no incompleteness. This understanding is an essential aspect of realization... Wham! Edgar On Aug 30, 2012, at 11:51 PM, Joe wrote:  Hiya, Merle, Nonetheless, practice formally if you are able. If you are not able, then find some way to do it. ;-) It's as important as that. Life is a little bit short, nowadays. If you report-back that it is all B.S., then we'll understand that it is so, for you... once you have given it your ALL, with a good teacher, and sangha. But I think you'll have a more positive experience, and report. In fact, I worry that you may develop attachments, especially in the realm, or area, of the Optical-sense. But when I see the paintings that afterwards result, coming from your studio, THAT will assuage my concerns, probably, and bath me in balm, I am sure. And this is what I look forward to. Yet, it's not selfishness, on my part. And, I am not attached to the possibility. But I have hopes that EVERYONE who wishes to practice under the best conditions may have their wish, and will awaken. Not just because I have done it, and have had the wonder and miracle of this chance a number of times, as many of us have, in company with so many others throughout History, and among our intimate acquaintances: but, because so many others have *not*. I know what I'm wishing you, and others, I mean. Otherwise... may the veiled-life suffice! One can't disparage where we are. One can only either realize, or not realize. Realize means realizing where we are already, but being the most clear about it. That's not a movement to somewhere else, but it is a very, very big step, as momentous as the late Neil Armstrong's. Will you trust me, about this, in this? I was 17 when he and Buzz landed, and walked, and Mike Collins orbited, station-keeping for them. Life was different after that. I could write volumes about how. Maybe I'm a relic. Maybe, someday, to be appreciated. ;-) --Joe Merle
Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils
Mike, Excellent question. I'll paraphrase it as 'how can delusional beliefs (illogical beliefs) be part of reality if reality (the world of forms) which includes everything is a logical structure'? The short answer is that illogical beliefs must be taken in their greater context in which they become logical. For example if someone was raised in a fundamentalist Christian upbringing it is LOGICAL they will grow up with delusional beliefs. Those beliefs are the LOGICAL outcome of that upbringing... Same with Australian aborigines raised in their culture. BTW I wasn't critical of people raised in delusion. Everyone is to some extent. I was critical of the delusions in question. But realization requires correcting delusion. Only when delusion is corrected can realization take place... To answer your last question. Chi is simply the internal feeling of the life force that everyone has. It IS direct experience of one's own being and one's relationship to the rest of reality. It's existence is self evident and with us directly experienced every moment of our lives. As to spirit, depends on how you define it Different people define it different ways, some supernaturally, some as an equivalent term for Buddha Nature = Tao = ontological energy Edgar On Sep 2, 2012, at 8:11 AM, mike brown wrote: Edgar, Don't you contradict yourself here somewhat? You were previously critical of people from cultures where they may have a belief in dragons or rainbow serpents etc. Aren't these beliefs part of the Truth (Buddha Nature) as well then? Especially when they haven't had, or even when they have had, contact with contemporary science. If you believe in 'chi' energy, what's the difference in believing in 'spirit'? Mike From: Edgar Owen edgaro...@att.net To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 13:00 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils Bill! And that my friend is precisely the problem. Logic, like everything else that exists IS Buddha Nature. Because there is nothing that is NOT Buddha nature... I think we've honed into the absolute kernel and crux of the disagreement right here ... See what I'm saying? You adopt a dualistic view by denying part of what exists is part of Buddha Nature. I point out there is no such dualism because everything that exists is part of reality (Buddha Nature) by definition, including things such as logic and your daily life using logic making a living, that you deny is part of Buddha Nature. This is the MOST IMPORTANT post of mine to Bill! ever! I only hope this will be a super Kwatz moment and that Bill! won't try to avoid and ignore the koan as usual Edgar On Sep 2, 2012, at 7:32 AM, Bill! wrote: Edgar, Sometimes I think you don't read my posts. I NEVER said I don't use logic. I use it all the time. I make my living using it. I don't however mistake logic for Buddha Nature. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Bill!, Proving Bill! still uses his considerable intelligence to negotiate the rational world of forms contrary to what he claims and would have us believe :-) Edgar On Sep 2, 2012, at 4:46 AM, Bill! wrote: Bill, I've had a lot of practice trying to follow Edgar's posts. I'm sure you'll get the hang of it sooner or later. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, William Rintala brintala@ wrote: Thank you for that Edgar. I can follow your emails better if you give them to me a teaspoon at a time, unlike Bill! who seems to follow what you say with ease.  Bill not Bill! Find what makes your heart sing…and do it! From: Edgar Owen edgarowen@ To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sat, September 1, 2012 6:36:59 AM Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils  Joe and Merle, There is no 'goal' of enlightenment to be achieved without which you imagine you are incomplete There is no incompleteness. This understanding is an essential aspect of realization... Wham! Edgar On Aug 30, 2012, at 11:51 PM, Joe wrote:  Hiya, Merle, Nonetheless, practice formally if you are able. If you are not able, then find some way to do it. ;-) It's as important as that. Life is a little bit short, nowadays. If you report-back that it is all B.S., then we'll understand that it is so, for you... once you have given it your ALL, with a good teacher, and sangha. But I think you'll have a more positive experience, and report. In fact, I worry that you may develop attachments, especially in the realm, or area
Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils
No, it's Bill! with his pants down doing naked yoga! Edgar On Sep 2, 2012, at 8:12 AM, mike brown wrote: That's not a moon - that's a space station. Mike From: Edgar Owen edgaro...@att.net To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 13:04 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils MIke, Those words are fingers providing directions to the landing pad to the moon. EDgar On Sep 2, 2012, at 7:46 AM, mike brown wrote: Edgar, Of course Realisation is not something that happens only inside monastry walls, but it also doesn't come from understanding words like ontological and cognitive simulation model either. Mike From: Edgar Owen edgaro...@att.net To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 12:31 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils Mike, There are certainly times it is, but that can happen at any time Realization is not just something that occurs inside monastery walls... It has nothing to do with that... It's just opening to reality and reality is everywhere... Edgar On Sep 2, 2012, at 5:57 AM, mike brown wrote: Edgar, Wouldn't you say tho, that reality is less obscured during, or just after, a long retreat of meditation? Mike From: Edgar Owen edgaro...@att.net To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 1:13 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils Mike, Well, it's reality either way, but that reality is always changing as happening continually flows through the present moment. But however it changes it is still reality Edgar On Sep 1, 2012, at 6:09 PM, mike brown wrote: Edgar, Would you say that the world (inner/outer) you look at now is the same as when you're at the end of a sesshin? Mike From: Edgar Owen edgaro...@att.net To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, 1 September 2012, 18:44 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils ED, Stop practicing and just BE your Buddha Nature! Edgar On Sep 1, 2012, at 12:22 PM, ED wrote: Edgar, Therefore, although each of us is complete, we need to practice diligently at all times with no objective in mind? --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Joe and Merle, There is no 'goal' of enlightenment to be achieved without which you imagine you are incomplete There is no incompleteness. This understanding is an essential aspect of realization... Wham! Edgar
Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils
Bill! Completely wrong! That's the view that was rejected by the master who chose Hui Neng over the monk who claimed Zen was keeping the mirror free of dust Read Hui Neng's poem again. There is NO mirror that needs dusting to keep it clean. There is NO bowl that needs to be washed! Edgar On Sep 2, 2012, at 7:51 AM, Bill! wrote: A clean bowl is realization...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusuboyo@... wrote: Edgar, Exactly. Mike From: Edgar Owen edgarowen@... To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 12:35 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils  Mike, Yes, the problem with these pithy 'in crowd' Zen sayings is that bowls can be washed WITHOUT realization just as they can be WITH realization... Edgar On Sep 2, 2012, at 6:19 AM, mike brown wrote:  Bill!, A great instruction, and is certainly direct, but Joshu's instructions were given to a monk who had probably been practicing meditation for a long time and was already 'ripe' for awakening to happen. Imagine how useful that instruction would be to a neophyte coming off the street asking about the search for truth or something similar. Joshu's instruction is just that - an instruction. That's why i believe Buddha's skilful means (upaya) is so useful as a teaching method. On the one side we can have the direct pointing to the Dharma (Zen) and on the other we can have Therevada Buddhism with it's more step by step instructions, such as following the Noble eightfold Path. The Buddha was very wise to understand that there are many different kinds of people/cultures/personalities etc. out there and no one method will work for all. I think it should be clear now that wash you bowls just isn't going to work for someone like ED. If you agree, what else could you say that might help him? Mike From: Bill! BillSmart@... To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 9:48 Subject: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils  ED, Mind if Joshu and I jump in? WASH YOUR BOWLS! That's how...Bill! (and Joshu) --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, ED seacrofter001@ wrote: Edgar, And how is this magic trick accomplished? --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: ED, Stop practicing and just BE your Buddha Nature! Edgar Edgar, Therefore, although each of us is complete, we need to practice diligently at all times with no objective in mind? --ED Joe and Merle, There is no 'goal' of enlightenment to be achieved without which you imagine you are incomplete There is no incompleteness. This understanding is an essential aspect of realization... Wham! Edgar
Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils
On 9/2/2012 7:05 AM, mike brown wrote: But if you do find yourself thinking, just come back gently to the breath. A tri-ku for you: With each rise and fall The breath is grasped and released Each, a birth and death Immersed in thinking Self can be found nowhere else Always lost in thought Mind, a stream of thought Following, or flowing by The way, like water Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils
With or without. Why decide? Don't know (Which only appears to be a pithy zen saying when seen so) KG On 9/2/2012 7:46 AM, mike brown wrote: Edgar, Of course Realisation is not something that happens only inside monastry walls, but it also doesn't come from understanding words like ontological and cognitive simulation model either. Mike *From:* Edgar Owen edgaro...@att.net *To:* Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com *Sent:* Sunday, 2 September 2012, 12:31 *Subject:* Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils Mike, There are certainly times it is, but that can happen at any time Realization is not just something that occurs inside monastery walls... It has nothing to do with that... It's just opening to reality and reality is everywhere... Edgar On Sep 2, 2012, at 5:57 AM, mike brown wrote: Edgar, Wouldn't you say tho, that reality is less obscured during, or just after, a long retreat of meditation? Mike *From:* Edgar Owen edgaro...@att.net mailto:edgaro...@att.net *To:* Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com *Sent:* Sunday, 2 September 2012, 1:13 *Subject:* Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils Mike, Well, it's reality either way, but that reality is always changing as happening continually flows through the present moment. But however it changes it is still reality Edgar On Sep 1, 2012, at 6:09 PM, mike brown wrote: Edgar, Would you say that the world (inner/outer) you look at now is the same as when you're at the end of a sesshin? Mike *From:* Edgar Owen edgaro...@att.net mailto:edgaro...@att.net *To:* Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com *Sent:* Saturday, 1 September 2012, 18:44 *Subject:* Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils ED, Stop practicing and just BE your Buddha Nature! Edgar On Sep 1, 2012, at 12:22 PM, ED wrote: Edgar, Therefore, although each of us is complete, we need to practice diligently at all times with no objective in mind? --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Joe and Merle, There is no 'goal' of enlightenment to be achieved without which you imagine you are incomplete There is no incompleteness. This understanding is an essential aspect of realization... Wham! Edgar
Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils
So you both have the same problem with this! *L* KG On 9/2/2012 7:47 AM, mike brown wrote: Edgar, Exactly. Mike *From:* Edgar Owen edgaro...@att.net *To:* Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com *Sent:* Sunday, 2 September 2012, 12:35 *Subject:* Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils Mike, Yes, the problem with these pithy 'in crowd' Zen sayings is that bowls can be washed WITHOUT realization just as they can be WITH realization... Edgar On Sep 2, 2012, at 6:19 AM, mike brown wrote: Bill!, A great instruction, and is certainly direct, but Joshu's instructions were given to a monk who had probably been practicing meditation for a long time and was already 'ripe' for awakening to happen. Imagine how useful that instruction would be to a neophyte coming off the street asking about the search for truth or something similar. Joshu's instruction is just that - an instruction. That's why i believe Buddha's skilful means (upaya) is so useful as a teaching method. On the one side we can have the direct pointing to the Dharma (Zen) and on the other we can have Therevada Buddhism with it's more step by step instructions, such as following the Noble eightfold Path. The Buddha was very wise to understand that there are many different kinds of people/cultures/personalities etc. out there and no one method will work for all. I think it should be clear now that wash you bowls just isn't going to work for someone like ED. If you agree, what else could you say that might help him? Mike *From:* Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org mailto:billsm...@hhs1963.org *To:* Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com *Sent:* Sunday, 2 September 2012, 9:48 *Subject:* [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils ED, Mind if Joshu and I jump in? WASH YOUR BOWLS! That's how...Bill! (and Joshu) --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com, ED seacrofter001@... wrote: Edgar, And how is this magic trick accomplished? --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: ED, Stop practicing and just BE your Buddha Nature! Edgar Edgar, Therefore, although each of us is complete, we need to practice diligently at all times with no objective in mind? --ED Joe and Merle, There is no 'goal' of enlightenment to be achieved without which you imagine you are incomplete There is no incompleteness. This understanding is an essential aspect of realization... Wham! Edgar
Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils
I understand what you are saying here, that our perception of reality is a logical outgrowth of our preconceptions, our starting places. I balk at labeling it delusional. There are many paths to the same place. We can start with logic and say that 1+1=2 but is that true in all cases? That 2 points in space define a straight line but is that always the case? Is it delusional to believe that? Bill Find what makes your heart sing…and do it! From: Edgar Owen edgaro...@att.net To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sun, September 2, 2012 7:25:59 AM Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils Mike, Excellent question. I'll paraphrase it as 'how can delusional beliefs (illogical beliefs) be part of reality if reality (the world of forms) which includes everything is a logical structure'? The short answer is that illogical beliefs must be taken in their greater context in which they become logical. For example if someone was raised in a fundamentalist Christian upbringing it is LOGICAL they will grow up with delusional beliefs. Those beliefs are the LOGICAL outcome of that upbringing... Same with Australian aborigines raised in their culture. BTW I wasn't critical of people raised in delusion. Everyone is to some extent. I was critical of the delusions in question. But realization requires correcting delusion. Only when delusion is corrected can realization take place... To answer your last question. Chi is simply the internal feeling of the life force that everyone has. It IS direct experience of one's own being and one's relationship to the rest of reality. It's existence is self evident and with us directly experienced every moment of our lives. As to spirit, depends on how you define it Different people define it different ways, some supernaturally, some as an equivalent term for Buddha Nature = Tao = ontological energy Edgar On Sep 2, 2012, at 8:11 AM, mike brown wrote: Edgar, Don't you contradict yourself here somewhat? You were previously critical of people from cultures where they may have a belief in dragons or rainbow serpents etc. Aren't these beliefs part of the Truth (Buddha Nature) as well then? Especially when they haven't had, or even when they have had, contact with contemporary science. If you believe in 'chi' energy, what's the difference in believing in 'spirit'? Mike From: Edgar Owen edgaro...@att.net To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 13:00 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils Bill! And that my friend is precisely the problem. Logic, like everything else that exists IS Buddha Nature. Because there is nothing that is NOT Buddha nature... I think we've honed into the absolute kernel and crux of the disagreement right here ... See what I'm saying? You adopt a dualistic view by denying part of what exists is part of Buddha Nature. I point out there is no such dualism because everything that exists is part of reality (Buddha Nature) by definition, including things such as logic and your daily life using logic making a living, that you deny is part of Buddha Nature. This is the MOST IMPORTANT post of mine to Bill! ever! I only hope this will be a super Kwatz moment and that Bill! won't try to avoid and ignore the koan as usual Edgar On Sep 2, 2012, at 7:32 AM, Bill! wrote: Edgar, Sometimes I think you don't read my posts. I NEVER said I don't use logic. I use it all the time. I make my living using it. I don't however mistake logic for Buddha Nature. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Bill!, Proving Bill! still uses his considerable intelligence to negotiate the rational world of forms contrary to what he claims and would have us believe :-) Edgar On Sep 2, 2012, at 4:46 AM, Bill! wrote: Bill, I've had a lot of practice trying to follow Edgar's posts. I'm sure you'll get the hang of it sooner or later. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, William Rintala brintala@ wrote: Thank you for that Edgar. I can follow your emails better if you give them to me a teaspoon at a time, unlike Bill! who seems to follow what you say with ease.  Bill not Bill! Find what makes your heart sing…and do it! From: Edgar Owen edgarowen@ To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sat, September 1, 2012 6:36:59 AM Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils  Joe and Merle, There is no 'goal' of enlightenment to be achieved without which you imagine you are incomplete There is no incompleteness. This understanding is an essential aspect of realization... Wham! Edgar On Aug 30, 2012, at 11:51 PM
Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils
Kris, Very good! You must have given that a lot of thought ; ) Self can be found nowhere else Of course. Self/Buddha Nature/Awareness is unborn (and therefore never dies) and so is ever present regardless of what we are thinking/doing. But suffering arises when we think there is an independent 'I' having those thoughts. That we have this Realisation is the difference. How this Realisation manifests is unimportant. For some it will be sudden for others gradual. But you're correct that Self alwaysis. Mke From: Kristopher Grey k...@kgrey.com To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 15:42 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils On 9/2/2012 7:05 AM, mike brown wrote: But if you do find yourself thinking, just come back gently to the breath. A tri-ku for you: With each rise and fall The breath is grasped and released Each, a birth and death Immersed in thinking Self can be found nowhere else Always lost in thought Mind, a stream of thought Following, or flowing by The way, like water
Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils
Kris, I might point out that apparent obscuration is no less reality than apparent clarity Reality is certainly there regardless, but reality seen with obscuration leads to suffering, whereas reality seen with clarity will lead to the cessation of suffering. That's all I need to know and that is my witness. Mike From: Kristopher Grey k...@kgrey.com To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 16:11 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils I might point out that apparent obscuration is no less reality than apparent clarity. In doing so, this point only dances around itself - offers nothing you can't realize directly. What can anyone say in response that you will not directly experience (realize) as some aspect of this reality/realization- whether you realize it or not - just as when experiencing meditation/not meditation? This more or less business is you triangulating your position. Nothing more, nothing less. KG On 9/2/2012 5:57 AM, mike brown wrote: Edgar, Wouldn't you say tho, that reality is less obscured during, or just after, a long retreat of meditation? Mike From: Edgar Owen edgaro...@att.net To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 1:13 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils Mike, Well, it's reality either way, but that reality is always changing as happening continually flows through the present moment. But however it changes it is still reality Edgar On Sep 1, 2012, at 6:09 PM, mike brown wrote: Edgar, Would you say that the world (inner/outer) you look at now is the same as when you're at the end of a sesshin? Mike From: Edgar Owen edgaro...@att.net To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, 1 September 2012, 18:44 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils ED, Stop practicing and just BE your Buddha Nature! Edgar On Sep 1, 2012, at 12:22 PM, ED wrote: Edgar, Therefore, although each of us is complete, we need to practice diligently at all times with no objective in mind? --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Joe and Merle, There is no 'goal' of enlightenment to be achieved without which you imagine you are incomplete There is no incompleteness. This understanding is an essential aspect of realization... Wham! Edgar
Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils
Well, I guess there's sitting under a tree and then there's also sitting under a tree. No problem. Mike From: Kristopher Grey k...@kgrey.com To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 16:15 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils So you both have the same problem with this! *L* KG On 9/2/2012 7:47 AM, mike brown wrote: Edgar, Exactly. Mike From: Edgar Owen edgaro...@att.net To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 12:35 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils Mike, Yes, the problem with these pithy 'in crowd' Zen sayings is that bowls can be washed WITHOUT realization just as they can be WITH realization... Edgar On Sep 2, 2012, at 6:19 AM, mike brown wrote: Bill!, A great instruction, and is certainly direct, but Joshu's instructions were given to a monk who had probably been practicing meditation for a long time and was already 'ripe' for awakening to happen. Imagine how useful that instruction would be to a neophyte coming off the street asking about the search for truth or something similar. Joshu's instruction is just that - an instruction. That's why i believe Buddha's skilful means (upaya) is so useful as a teaching method. On the one side we can have the direct pointing to the Dharma (Zen) and on the other we can have Therevada Buddhism with it's more step by step instructions, such as following the Noble eightfold Path. The Buddha was very wise to understand that there are many different kinds of people/cultures/personalities etc. out there and no one method will work for all. I think it should be clear now that wash you bowls just isn't going to work for someone like ED. If you agree, what else could you say that might help him? Mike From: Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 9:48 Subject: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils ED, Mind if Joshu and I jump in? WASH YOUR BOWLS! That's how...Bill! (and Joshu) --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, ED seacrofter001@... wrote: Edgar, And how is this magic trick accomplished? --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: ED, Stop practicing and just BE your Buddha Nature! Edgar Edgar, Therefore, although each of us is complete, we need to practice diligently at all times with no objective in mind? --ED Joe and Merle, There is no 'goal' of enlightenment to be achieved without which you imagine you are incomplete There is no incompleteness. This understanding is an essential aspect of realization... Wham
Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils
ED, First of all, if my post sounded patronising to you then I apologise. My point is that there are many paths to Realisation and some are more suited to certain people than others. I can see how the direct, 'this is it - nothing lacks/nothing extra' approach of Zen works for some, but I can also see how the progressive, more detailed approach of Buddha's teachings works for others. Neither is right or wrong, or better or worse than the other. Ultimately the two extremes take us to the same Realisation. I just wonder that after 10 years of Zen practice (and 8 years on this forum!), that you, like me. might benefit from a different approach than the directness of Zen. Actually, that's not strictly correct. I haven't 'dropped' Zen at all - I've just found that going back to the original teachings has enhanced my practice. People here can argue that this is necessary, or even possible, but only I can attest to what I know, or don't know. Mike From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 16:50 Subject: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils Mike, Shut up and sit. Just THIS. Be here now. Walk on. What 'helping' do you believe I or anyone else on this forum needs? --ED PS: Is Zen really as complicated as these wordy discussions make it out to be? --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusuboyo@ wrote: Bill!, The Buddha was very wise to understand that there are many different kinds of people/cultures/personalities etc. out there and no one method will work for all. I think it should be clear now that wash you bowls just isn't going to work for someone like ED. If you agree, what else could you say that might help him? Mike
Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils
ED, ED: This is a thought/conception/belief/assumption.) Not at all, but you'd be right not to accept anyone's word for it. If it's only accepted at an intellectual level, then it's not worth the words used to explain it. It has to be experienced body and soul (Hence the burst of laughter and release when you see the obviousness of it). Just as knowing a glass of water is cold when you drink it straight from the fridge - and is not a belief or conception - so to is awakening to Buddha Nature. ED: This is a core teaching of the Buddha. Indeed. Mike From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.comh To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 17:24 Subject: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusuboyo@... wrote: Self/Buddha Nature/Awareness is unborn (and therefore never dies) and so is ever present regardless of what we are thinking/doing. ED: This is a thought/conception/belief/assumption.) But suffering arises when we think there is an independent 'I' having those thoughts. ED: This is a core teaching of the Buddha. Mike
Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils
Kris, Don't know (Which only appears to be a pithy zen saying when seen so) Or said so. Mike From: Kristopher Grey k...@kgrey.com To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 16:14 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils With or without. Why decide? Don't know (Which only appears to be a pithy zen saying when seen so) KG On 9/2/2012 7:46 AM, mike brown wrote: Edgar, Of course Realisation is not something that happens only inside monastry walls, but it also doesn't come from understanding words like ontological and cognitive simulation model either. Mike From: Edgar Owen edgaro...@att.net To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 12:31 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils Mike, There are certainly times it is, but that can happen at any time Realization is not just something that occurs inside monastery walls... It has nothing to do with that... It's just opening to reality and reality is everywhere... Edgar On Sep 2, 2012, at 5:57 AM, mike brown wrote: Edgar, Wouldn't you say tho, that reality is less obscured during, or just after, a long retreat of meditation? Mike From: Edgar Owen edgaro...@att.net To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 1:13 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils Mike, Well, it's reality either way, but that reality is always changing as happening continually flows through the present moment. But however it changes it is still reality Edgar On Sep 1, 2012, at 6:09 PM, mike brown wrote: Edgar, Would you say that the world (inner/outer) you look at now is the same as when you're at the end of a sesshin? Mike From: Edgar Owen edgaro...@att.net To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, 1 September 2012, 18:44 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils ED, Stop practicing and just BE your Buddha Nature! Edgar On Sep 1, 2012, at 12:22 PM, ED wrote: Edgar, Therefore, although each of us is complete, we need to practice diligently at all times with no objective in mind? --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Joe and Merle, There is no 'goal' of enlightenment to be achieved without which you imagine you are incomplete There is no incompleteness. This understanding is an essential aspect of realization... Wham! Edgar
Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils
Planted in neat rows Harvested with sharp sickle Winter approaches KG On 9/2/2012 8:25 AM, Edgar Owen wrote: Mike, Excellent question. I'll paraphrase it as 'how can delusional beliefs (illogical beliefs) be part of reality if reality (the world of forms) which includes everything is a logical structure'? The short answer is that illogical beliefs must be taken in their greater context in which they become logical. For example if someone was raised in a fundamentalist Christian upbringing it is LOGICAL they will grow up with delusional beliefs. Those beliefs are the LOGICAL outcome of that upbringing... Same with Australian aborigines raised in their culture. BTW I wasn't critical of people raised in delusion. Everyone is to some extent. I was critical of the delusions in question. But realization requires correcting delusion. Only when delusion is corrected can realization take place... To answer your last question. Chi is simply the internal feeling of the life force that everyone has. It IS direct experience of one's own being and one's relationship to the rest of reality. It's existence is self evident and with us directly experienced every moment of our lives. As to spirit, depends on how you define it Different people define it different ways, some supernaturally, some as an equivalent term for Buddha Nature = Tao = ontological energy Edgar On Sep 2, 2012, at 8:11 AM, mike brown wrote: Edgar, Don't you contradict yourself here somewhat? You were previously critical of people from cultures where they may have a belief in dragons or rainbow serpents etc. Aren't these beliefs part of the Truth (Buddha Nature) as well then? Especially when they haven't had, or even when they have had, contact with contemporary science. If you believe in 'chi' energy, what's the difference in believing in 'spirit'? Mike *From:* Edgar Owen edgaro...@att.net mailto:edgaro...@att.net *To:* Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com *Sent:* Sunday, 2 September 2012, 13:00 *Subject:* Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils Bill! And that my friend is precisely the problem. Logic, like everything else that exists IS Buddha Nature. Because there is nothing that is NOT Buddha nature... I think we've honed into the absolute kernel and crux of the disagreement right here ... See what I'm saying? You adopt a dualistic view by denying part of what exists is part of Buddha Nature. I point out there is no such dualism because everything that exists is part of reality (Buddha Nature) by definition, including things such as logic and your daily life using logic making a living, that you deny is part of Buddha Nature. This is the MOST IMPORTANT post of mine to Bill! ever! I only hope this will be a super Kwatz moment and that Bill! won't try to avoid and ignore the koan as usual Edgar On Sep 2, 2012, at 7:32 AM, Bill! wrote: Edgar, Sometimes I think you don't read my posts. I NEVER said I don't use logic. I use it all the time. I make my living using it. I don't however mistake logic for Buddha Nature. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Bill!, Proving Bill! still uses his considerable intelligence to negotiate the rational world of forms contrary to what he claims and would have us believe :-) Edgar On Sep 2, 2012, at 4:46 AM, Bill! wrote: Bill, I've had a lot of practice trying to follow Edgar's posts. I'm sure you'll get the hang of it sooner or later. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com, William Rintala brintala@ wrote: Thank you for that Edgar. I can follow your emails better if you give them to me a teaspoon at a time, unlike Bill! who seems to follow what you say with ease.  Bill not Bill! Find what makes your heart sing…and do it! From: Edgar Owen edgarowen@ To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com Sent: Sat, September 1, 2012 6:36:59 AM Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils  Joe and Merle, There is no 'goal' of enlightenment to be achieved without which you imagine you are incomplete There is no incompleteness. This understanding is an essential aspect of realization... Wham! Edgar On Aug 30, 2012, at 11:51 PM, Joe wrote:  Hiya, Merle, Nonetheless, practice formally if you are able. If you are not able, then find some way to do it. ;-) It's as important as that. Life is a little bit short, nowadays. If you report-back that it is all B.S., then we'll understand that it is so, for you... once you have given it your ALL, with a good teacher, and sangha
Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils
Bowling in darkness No one sees the pins set up No one sees them fall KG On 9/2/2012 8:07 AM, Edgar Owen wrote: Bill! Completely wrong! That's the view that was rejected by the master who chose Hui Neng over the monk who claimed Zen was keeping the mirror free of dust Read Hui Neng's poem again. There is NO mirror that needs dusting to keep it clean. There is NO bowl that needs to be washed! Edgar On Sep 2, 2012, at 7:51 AM, Bill! wrote: A clean bowl is realization...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusuboyo@... wrote: Edgar, Exactly. Mike From: Edgar Owen edgarowen@... To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 12:35 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils  Mike, Yes, the problem with these pithy 'in crowd' Zen sayings is that bowls can be washed WITHOUT realization just as they can be WITH realization... Edgar On Sep 2, 2012, at 6:19 AM, mike brown wrote:  Bill!, A great instruction, and is certainly direct, but Joshu's instructions were given to a monk who had probably been practicing meditation for a long time and was already 'ripe' for awakening to happen. Imagine how useful that instruction would be to a neophyte coming off the street asking about the search for truth or something similar. Joshu's instruction is just that - an instruction. That's why i believe Buddha's skilful means (upaya) is so useful as a teaching method. On the one side we can have the direct pointing to the Dharma (Zen) and on the other we can have Therevada Buddhism with it's more step by step instructions, such as following the Noble eightfold Path. The Buddha was very wise to understand that there are many different kinds of people/cultures/personalities etc. out there and no one method will work for all. I think it should be clear now that wash you bowls just isn't going to work for someone like ED. If you agree, what else could you say that might help him? Mike From: Bill! BillSmart@... To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 9:48 Subject: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils  ED, Mind if Joshu and I jump in? WASH YOUR BOWLS! That's how...Bill! (and Joshu) --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com, ED seacrofter001@ wrote: Edgar, And how is this magic trick accomplished? --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: ED, Stop practicing and just BE your Buddha Nature! Edgar Edgar, Therefore, although each of us is complete, we need to practice diligently at all times with no objective in mind? --ED Joe and Merle, There is no 'goal' of enlightenment to be achieved without which you imagine you are incomplete There is no incompleteness. This understanding is an essential aspect of realization... Wham! Edgar
Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils
You're all clear, kid, now let's *blow* this thing and go home! On 9/2/2012 8:12 AM, mike brown wrote: That's not a moon - that's a space station. Mike *From:* Edgar Owen edgaro...@att.net *To:* Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com *Sent:* Sunday, 2 September 2012, 13:04 *Subject:* Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils MIke, Those words are fingers providing directions to the landing pad to the moon. EDgar On Sep 2, 2012, at 7:46 AM, mike brown wrote: Edgar, Of course Realisation is not something that happens only inside monastry walls, but it also doesn't come from understanding words like ontological and cognitive simulation model either. Mike *From:* Edgar Owen edgaro...@att.net mailto:edgaro...@att.net *To:* Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com *Sent:* Sunday, 2 September 2012, 12:31 *Subject:* Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils Mike, There are certainly times it is, but that can happen at any time Realization is not just something that occurs inside monastery walls... It has nothing to do with that... It's just opening to reality and reality is everywhere... Edgar On Sep 2, 2012, at 5:57 AM, mike brown wrote: Edgar, Wouldn't you say tho, that reality is less obscured during, or just after, a long retreat of meditation? Mike *From:* Edgar Owen edgaro...@att.net mailto:edgaro...@att.net *To:* Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com *Sent:* Sunday, 2 September 2012, 1:13 *Subject:* Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils Mike, Well, it's reality either way, but that reality is always changing as happening continually flows through the present moment. But however it changes it is still reality Edgar On Sep 1, 2012, at 6:09 PM, mike brown wrote: Edgar, Would you say that the world (inner/outer) you look at now is the same as when you're at the end of a sesshin? Mike *From:* Edgar Owen edgaro...@att.net mailto:edgaro...@att.net *To:* Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com *Sent:* Saturday, 1 September 2012, 18:44 *Subject:* Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils ED, Stop practicing and just BE your Buddha Nature! Edgar On Sep 1, 2012, at 12:22 PM, ED wrote: Edgar, Therefore, although each of us is complete, we need to practice diligently at all times with no objective in mind? --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Joe and Merle, There is no 'goal' of enlightenment to be achieved without which you imagine you are incomplete There is no incompleteness. This understanding is an essential aspect of realization... Wham! Edgar
Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils
It's 'delusional' to 'believe' anything. Both are just different labels for various aspects of self-story (a conceptual re-ordering of appearances - or direct experiencing). Useful in that way. Realization requires nothing, rejects nothing. Impersonal, incalculable, ineffable - infinitely simpler than whatever it makes itself out to be. Starting places? This implies a finish line. How can you finish what you didn't start? Without beginning or end. Suchness. KG On 9/2/2012 11:53 AM, William Rintala wrote: I understand what you are saying here, that our perception of reality is a logical outgrowth of our preconceptions, our starting places. I balk at labeling it delusional. There are many paths to the same place. We can start with logic and say that 1+1=2 but is that true in all cases? That 2 points in space define a straight line but is that always the case? Is it delusional to believe that? Bill Find what makes your heart sing…and do it! *From:* Edgar Owen edgaro...@att.net *To:* Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com *Sent:* Sun, September 2, 2012 7:25:59 AM *Subject:* Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils Mike, Excellent question. I'll paraphrase it as 'how can delusional beliefs (illogical beliefs) be part of reality if reality (the world of forms) which includes everything is a logical structure'? The short answer is that illogical beliefs must be taken in their greater context in which they become logical. For example if someone was raised in a fundamentalist Christian upbringing it is LOGICAL they will grow up with delusional beliefs. Those beliefs are the LOGICAL outcome of that upbringing... Same with Australian aborigines raised in their culture. BTW I wasn't critical of people raised in delusion. Everyone is to some extent. I was critical of the delusions in question. But realization requires correcting delusion. Only when delusion is corrected can realization take place... To answer your last question. Chi is simply the internal feeling of the life force that everyone has. It IS direct experience of one's own being and one's relationship to the rest of reality. It's existence is self evident and with us directly experienced every moment of our lives. As to spirit, depends on how you define it Different people define it different ways, some supernaturally, some as an equivalent term for Buddha Nature = Tao = ontological energy Edgar On Sep 2, 2012, at 8:11 AM, mike brown wrote: Edgar, Don't you contradict yourself here somewhat? You were previously critical of people from cultures where they may have a belief in dragons or rainbow serpents etc. Aren't these beliefs part of the Truth (Buddha Nature) as well then? Especially when they haven't had, or even when they have had, contact with contemporary science. If you believe in 'chi' energy, what's the difference in believing in 'spirit'? Mike *From:* Edgar Owen edgaro...@att.net mailto:edgaro...@att.net *To:* Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com *Sent:* Sunday, 2 September 2012, 13:00 *Subject:* Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils Bill! And that my friend is precisely the problem. Logic, like everything else that exists IS Buddha Nature. Because there is nothing that is NOT Buddha nature... I think we've honed into the absolute kernel and crux of the disagreement right here ... See what I'm saying? You adopt a dualistic view by denying part of what exists is part of Buddha Nature. I point out there is no such dualism because everything that exists is part of reality (Buddha Nature) by definition, including things such as logic and your daily life using logic making a living, that you deny is part of Buddha Nature. This is the MOST IMPORTANT post of mine to Bill! ever! I only hope this will be a super Kwatz moment and that Bill! won't try to avoid and ignore the koan as usual Edgar On Sep 2, 2012, at 7:32 AM, Bill! wrote: Edgar, Sometimes I think you don't read my posts. I NEVER said I don't use logic. I use it all the time. I make my living using it. I don't however mistake logic for Buddha Nature. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Bill!, Proving Bill! still uses his considerable intelligence to negotiate the rational world of forms contrary to what he claims and would have us believe :-) Edgar On Sep 2, 2012, at 4:46 AM, Bill! wrote: Bill, I've had a lot of practice trying to follow Edgar's posts. I'm sure you'll get the hang of it sooner or later. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com, William Rintala brintala@ wrote: Thank you for that Edgar. I can follow your emails better if you give them to me
Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils
Then you still know too much. ;) If it so clear as that, there is nothing to see. The 'obscuration' all that may show the way. What you are seeing as separate only appears to be. All a matter of how you see it. So who is leading who? Who suffers? In seeking perfection, it forever eludes. The clear minded are equally empty headed. Don't throw the Buddha out with the bathwater. KG PS - Expresses simpler/more obviously wordlessly - see: 'Wabi Sabi' - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wabi-sabi On 9/2/2012 12:32 PM, mike brown wrote: Kris, I might point out that apparent obscuration is no less reality than apparent clarity Reality is certainly there regardless, but reality seen with obscuration leads to suffering, whereas reality seen with clarity will lead to the cessation of suffering. That's all I need to know and that is my witness. Mike *From:* Kristopher Grey k...@kgrey.com *To:* Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com *Sent:* Sunday, 2 September 2012, 16:11 *Subject:* Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils I might point out that apparent obscuration is no less reality than apparent clarity. In doing so, this point only dances around itself - offers nothing you can't realize directly. What can anyone say in response that you will not directly experience (realize) as some aspect of this reality/realization- whether you realize it or not - just as when experiencing meditation/not meditation? This more or less business is you triangulating your position. Nothing more, nothing less. KG On 9/2/2012 5:57 AM, mike brown wrote: Edgar, Wouldn't you say tho, that reality is less obscured during, or just after, a long retreat of meditation? Mike *From:* Edgar Owen edgaro...@att.net mailto:edgaro...@att.net *To:* Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com *Sent:* Sunday, 2 September 2012, 1:13 *Subject:* Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils Mike, Well, it's reality either way, but that reality is always changing as happening continually flows through the present moment. But however it changes it is still reality Edgar On Sep 1, 2012, at 6:09 PM, mike brown wrote: Edgar, Would you say that the world (inner/outer) you look at now is the same as when you're at the end of a sesshin? Mike *From:* Edgar Owen edgaro...@att.net mailto:edgaro...@att.net *To:* Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com *Sent:* Saturday, 1 September 2012, 18:44 *Subject:* Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils ED, Stop practicing and just BE your Buddha Nature! Edgar On Sep 1, 2012, at 12:22 PM, ED wrote: Edgar, Therefore, although each of us is complete, we need to practice diligently at all times with no objective in mind? --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@... mailto:edgarowen@... wrote: Joe and Merle, There is no 'goal' of enlightenment to be achieved without which you imagine you are incomplete There is no incompleteness. This understanding is an essential aspect of realization... Wham! Edgar
Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils
So it appears. Seen, said, heard. Same. Suchness. KG On 9/2/2012 1:26 PM, mike brown wrote: Kris, Don't know (Which only appears to be a pithy zen saying when seen so) Or said so. Mike *From:* Kristopher Grey k...@kgrey.com *To:* Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com *Sent:* Sunday, 2 September 2012, 16:14 *Subject:* Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils With or without. Why decide? Don't know (Which only appears to be a pithy zen saying when seen so) KG On 9/2/2012 7:46 AM, mike brown wrote: Edgar, Of course Realisation is not something that happens only inside monastry walls, but it also doesn't come from understanding words like ontological and cognitive simulation model either. Mike *From:* Edgar Owen edgaro...@att.net mailto:edgaro...@att.net *To:* Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com *Sent:* Sunday, 2 September 2012, 12:31 *Subject:* Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils Mike, There are certainly times it is, but that can happen at any time Realization is not just something that occurs inside monastery walls... It has nothing to do with that... It's just opening to reality and reality is everywhere... Edgar On Sep 2, 2012, at 5:57 AM, mike brown wrote: Edgar, Wouldn't you say tho, that reality is less obscured during, or just after, a long retreat of meditation? Mike *From:* Edgar Owen edgaro...@att.net mailto:edgaro...@att.net *To:* Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com *Sent:* Sunday, 2 September 2012, 1:13 *Subject:* Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils Mike, Well, it's reality either way, but that reality is always changing as happening continually flows through the present moment. But however it changes it is still reality Edgar On Sep 1, 2012, at 6:09 PM, mike brown wrote: Edgar, Would you say that the world (inner/outer) you look at now is the same as when you're at the end of a sesshin? Mike *From:* Edgar Owen edgaro...@att.net mailto:edgaro...@att.net *To:* Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com *Sent:* Saturday, 1 September 2012, 18:44 *Subject:* Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils ED, Stop practicing and just BE your Buddha Nature! Edgar On Sep 1, 2012, at 12:22 PM, ED wrote: Edgar, Therefore, although each of us is complete, we need to practice diligently at all times with no objective in mind? --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@... mailto:edgarowen@... wrote: Joe and Merle, There is no 'goal' of enlightenment to be achieved without which you imagine you are incomplete There is no incompleteness. This understanding is an essential aspect of realization... Wham! Edgar
Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils
Just washing with nothing added is realization. Rice bowl, laundry,kids, body, or bad habits, all same same. --Chris On Sep 2, 2012 4:35 AM, Edgar Owen edgaro...@att.net wrote: Mike, Yes, the problem with these pithy 'in crowd' Zen sayings is that bowls can be washed WITHOUT realization just as they can be WITH realization... Edgar On Sep 2, 2012, at 6:19 AM, mike brown wrote: Bill!, A great instruction, and is certainly direct, but Joshu's instructions were given to a monk who had probably been practicing meditation for a long time and was already 'ripe' for awakening to happen. Imagine how useful that instruction would be to a neophyte coming off the street asking about the search for truth or something similar. Joshu's instruction is just that - an instruction. That's why i believe Buddha's skilful means (upaya) is so useful as a teaching method. On the one side we can have the direct pointing to the Dharma (Zen) and on the other we can have Therevada Buddhism with it's more step by step instructions, such as following the Noble eightfold Path. The Buddha was very wise to understand that there are many different kinds of people/cultures/personalities etc. out there and no one method will work for all. I think it should be clear now that wash you bowls just isn't going to work for someone like ED. If you agree, what else could you say that might help him? Mike -- *From:* Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org *To:* Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com *Sent:* Sunday, 2 September 2012, 9:48 *Subject:* [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils ED, Mind if Joshu and I jump in? WASH YOUR BOWLS! That's how...Bill! (and Joshu) --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, ED seacrofter001@... wrote: Edgar, And how is this magic trick accomplished? --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: ED, Stop practicing and just BE your Buddha Nature! Edgar Edgar, Therefore, although each of us is complete, we need to practice diligently at all times with no objective in mind? --ED Joe and Merle, There is no 'goal' of enlightenment to be achieved without which you imagine you are incomplete There is no incompleteness. This understanding is an essential aspect of realization... Wham! Edgar
Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils
This day it is the annotated Zen Forum. On Sep 2, 2012 4:05 AM, mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Bill!, Isn't it the Zen Buddhist Forum, at least by implication? Isn't it fair to talk about comparisons? ED, Just sit. Don't think. Just sit. But if you do find yourself thinking, just come back gently to the breath. When you find your mind has become calm become mindful of how the breath (or any bodily sensations) arises and passes. How it is that there is no 'you' doing the breathing - rather the universe is breathing 'you'. Note how even pleasant sensations eventually pass and more unpleasant, or neutral, sensations take their place. With such mindfulness you may find you gain some insight into the 3 Characteristics of existence: impermanence, non-self, and the unsatisfactoriness of phenomena. With diligence and patience, you may become liberated from suffering. Not exactly pithy, I admit. And Zen is certainly direct in pointing to our True Nature. But wash your bowls, just sit and Just This! is also not 'it' either. So if we're going to have instructions/guides, then there is definitely a place for more descriptive ones (even tho the endgame will always be that they are ultimately dropped). The method is NOT the meditation. Mike -- *From:* Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org *To:* Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com *Sent:* Sunday, 2 September 2012, 11:33 *Subject:* [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils Mike, Point taken, but this is the Zen Forum, not the Theravada Forum or the Here-Have-Some-More-Rice-Gruel Forum. ED, Just sit. Don't think. Just sit. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusuboyo@... wrote: Bill!, A great instruction, and is certainly direct, but Joshu's instructions were given to a monk who had probably been practicing meditation for a long time and was already 'ripe' for awakening to happen. Imagine how useful that instruction would be to a neophyte coming off the street asking about the search for truth or something similar. Joshu's instruction is just that - an instruction. That's why i believe Buddha's skilful means (upaya) is so useful as a teaching method. On the one side we can have the direct pointing to the Dharma (Zen) and on the other we can have Therevada Buddhism with it's more step by step instructions, such as following the Noble eightfold Path. The Buddha was very wise to understand that there are many different kinds of people/cultures/personalities etc. out there and no one method will work for all. I think it should be clear now that wash you bowls just isn't going to work for someone like ED. If you agree, what else could you say that might help him? Mike From: Bill! BillSmart@... To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 9:48 Subject: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils  ED, Mind if Joshu and I jump in? WASH YOUR BOWLS! That's how...Bill! (and Joshu) --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, ED seacrofter001@ wrote: Edgar, And how is this magic trick accomplished? --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: ED, Stop practicing and just BE your Buddha Nature! Edgar Edgar, Therefore, although each of us is complete, we need to practice diligently at all times with no objective in mind? --ED Joe and Merle, There is no 'goal' of enlightenment to be achieved without which you imagine you are incomplete There is no incompleteness. This understanding is an essential aspect of realization... Wham! Edgar
Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils
Kris, Don't we come here with the tacit understanding that any words used here cannot capture the ineffable? I think you know exactly what I mean, you rascal. Mike From: Kristopher Grey k...@kgrey.com To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 20:11 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils Self appears/is born. No-self doesn't appear/is unborn. Realize these are but aspects of mind, no difference. KG On 9/2/2012 12:05 PM, mike brown wrote: Kris, Very good! You must have given that a lot of thought ; ) Self can be found nowhere else Of course. Self/Buddha Nature/Awareness is unborn (and therefore never dies) and so is ever present regardless of what we are thinking/doing. But suffering arises when we think there is an independent 'I' having those thoughts. That we have this Realisation is the difference. How this Realisation manifests is unimportant. For some it will be sudden for others gradual. But you're correct that Self alwaysis. Mke From: Kristopher Grey k...@kgrey.com To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 15:42 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils On 9/2/2012 7:05 AM, mike brown wrote: But if you do find yourself thinking, just come back gently to the breath. A tri-ku for you: With each rise and fall The breath is grasped and released Each, a birth and death Immersed in thinking Self can be found nowhere else Always lost in thought Mind, a stream of thought Following, or flowing by The way, like water
Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils
Kris, There is no one who suffers, but only after the realisation that there isn't even a mind for suffering to happen to is there liberation from it. Clarity here reads as insight. Mike From: Kristopher Grey k...@kgrey.com To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 20:23 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils Then you still know too much. ;) If it so clear as that, there is nothing to see. The 'obscuration' all that may show the way. What you are seeing as separate only appears to be. All a matter of how you see it. So who is leading who? Who suffers? In seeking perfection, it forever eludes. The clear minded are equally empty headed. Don't throw the Buddha out with the bathwater. KG PS - Expresses simpler/more obviously wordlessly - see: 'Wabi Sabi' - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wabi-sabi On 9/2/2012 12:32 PM, mike brown wrote: Kris, I might point out that apparent obscuration is no less reality than apparent clarity Reality is certainly there regardless, but reality seen with obscuration leads to suffering, whereas reality seen with clarity will lead to the cessation of suffering. That's all I need to know and that is my witness. Mike From: Kristopher Grey k...@kgrey.com To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 16:11 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils I might point out that apparent obscuration is no less reality than apparent clarity. In doing so, this point only dances around itself - offers nothing you can't realize directly. What can anyone say in response that you will not directly experience (realize) as some aspect of this reality/realization- whether you realize it or not - just as when experiencing meditation/not meditation? This more or less business is you triangulating your position. Nothing more, nothing less. KG On 9/2/2012 5:57 AM, mike brown wrote: Edgar, Wouldn't you say tho, that reality is less obscured during, or just after, a long retreat of meditation? Mike From: Edgar Owen edgaro...@att.net To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 1:13 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils Mike, Well, it's reality either way, but that reality is always changing as happening continually flows through the present moment. But however it changes it is still reality Edgar On Sep 1, 2012, at 6:09 PM, mike brown wrote: Edgar, Would you say that the world (inner/outer) you look at now is the same as when you're at the end of a sesshin? Mike From: Edgar Owen edgaro...@att.net To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, 1 September 2012, 18:44 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils ED, Stop practicing and just BE your Buddha Nature! Edgar On Sep 1, 2012, at 12:22 PM, ED wrote: Edgar, Therefore, although each of us is complete, we need to practice diligently at all times with no objective in mind? --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Joe and Merle, There is no 'goal' of enlightenment to be achieved without which you imagine you are incomplete There is no incompleteness. This understanding is an essential aspect
Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils
Kinda loses it's currency then. Mike From: Kristopher Grey k...@kgrey.com To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 21:49 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils So it appears. Seen, said, heard. Same. Suchness. KG On 9/2/2012 1:26 PM, mike brown wrote: Kris, Don't know (Which only appears to be a pithy zen saying when seen so) Or said so. Mike From: Kristopher Grey k...@kgrey.com To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 16:14 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils With or without. Why decide? Don't know (Which only appears to be a pithy zen saying when seen so) KG On 9/2/2012 7:46 AM, mike brown wrote: Edgar, Of course Realisation is not something that happens only inside monastry walls, but it also doesn't come from understanding words like ontological and cognitive simulation model either. Mike From: Edgar Owen edgaro...@att.net To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 12:31 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils Mike, There are certainly times it is, but that can happen at any time Realization is not just something that occurs inside monastery walls... It has nothing to do with that... It's just opening to reality and reality is everywhere... Edgar On Sep 2, 2012, at 5:57 AM, mike brown wrote: Edgar, Wouldn't you say tho, that reality is less obscured during, or just after, a long retreat of meditation? Mike From: Edgar Owen edgaro...@att.net To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 1:13 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils Mike, Well, it's reality either way, but that reality is always changing as happening continually flows through the present moment. But however it changes it is still reality Edgar On Sep 1, 2012, at 6:09 PM, mike brown wrote: Edgar, Would you say that the world (inner/outer) you look at now is the same as when you're at the end of a sesshin? Mike From: Edgar Owen edgaro...@att.net To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, 1 September 2012, 18:44 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils ED, Stop practicing and just BE your Buddha Nature! Edgar On Sep 1, 2012, at 12:22 PM, ED wrote: Edgar, Therefore, although each of us is complete, we need to practice diligently at all times with no objective in mind? --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Joe and Merle, There is no 'goal' of enlightenment to be achieved without which you imagine you are incomplete There is no incompleteness. This understanding is an essential aspect of realization... Wham! Edgar
Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils
Chris, Guess we could all just shout Kwatz! at each other from now on then... Mike From: Chris Austin-Lane ch...@austin-lane.net To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 21:52 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils This day it is the annotated Zen Forum. On Sep 2, 2012 4:05 AM, mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Bill!, Isn't it the Zen BuddhistForum, at least by implication? Isn't it fair to talk about comparisons? ED, Just sit. Don't think. Just sit. But if you do find yourself thinking, just come back gently to the breath. When you find your mind has become calm become mindful of how the breath (or any bodily sensations) arises and passes. How it is that there is no 'you' doing the breathing - rather the universe is breathing 'you'. Note how even pleasant sensations eventually pass and more unpleasant, or neutral, sensations take their place. With such mindfulness you may find you gain some insight into the 3 Characteristics of existence: impermanence, non-self, and the unsatisfactoriness of phenomena. With diligence and patience, you may become liberated from suffering. Not exactly pithy, I admit. And Zen is certainly direct in pointing to our True Nature. But wash your bowls, just sit and Just This! is also not 'it' either. So if we're going to have instructions/guides, then there is definitely a place for more descriptive ones (even tho the endgame will always be that they are ultimately dropped). The method is NOT the meditation. Mike From: Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 11:33 Subject: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils Mike, Point taken, but this is the Zen Forum, not the Theravada Forum or the Here-Have-Some-More-Rice-Gruel Forum. ED, Just sit. Don't think. Just sit. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusuboyo@... wrote: Bill!, A great instruction, and is certainly direct, but Joshu's instructions were given to a monk who had probably been practicing meditation for a long time and was already 'ripe' for awakening to happen. Imagine how useful that instruction would be to a neophyte coming off the street asking about the search for truth or something similar. Joshu's instruction is just that - an instruction. That's why i believe Buddha's skilful means (upaya) is so useful as a teaching method. On the one side we can have the direct pointing to the Dharma (Zen) and on the other we can have Therevada Buddhism with it's more step by step instructions, such as following the Noble eightfold Path. The Buddha was very wise to understand that there are many different kinds of people/cultures/personalities etc. out there and no one method will work for all. I think it should be clear now that wash you bowls just isn't going to work for someone like ED. If you agree, what else could you say that might help him? Mike From: Bill! BillSmart@... To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 9:48 Subject: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils  ED, Mind if Joshu and I jump in? WASH YOUR BOWLS! That's how...Bill! (and Joshu) --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, ED seacrofter001@ wrote: Edgar, And how is this magic trick accomplished? --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: ED, Stop practicing and just BE your Buddha Nature! Edgar Edgar, Therefore, although each of us is complete, we need to practice diligently at all times with no objective in mind? --ED Joe and Merle, There is no 'goal' of enlightenment to be achieved without which you imagine you are incomplete There is no incompleteness. This understanding is an essential aspect of realization... Wham! Edgar
Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils
i'll show you my pics if you show me yours...merle Mike, Sorry for ruining your appetite! Maybe Merle's running naked through the daffodils site will restore it! :-) Edgar On Sep 2, 2012, at 8:14 AM, mike brown wrote: Edgar, Thanks. You do know it's dinner time here in the UK, right? Mike From: Edgar Owen edgaro...@att.net To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 13:09 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils Mike, You mean you haven't seen Bill's naked zazen photos? :-) Edgar On Sep 2, 2012, at 7:59 AM, mike brown wrote: Naked Yoga Forum? If that's run by you and Edgar, then I hope it's strictly conducted in the written medium only. God forbid. Mike From: Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 12:53 Subject: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils I agree with Edgar! ...and that's how we pump-up the post count so we can increase our commission checks and some day retire to become moderators of the Yahoo! Naked Yoga Forum. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Bill!, Mike and ED, Yes, I'll continually fill your bowls with the gruel of realization while Bill! continually washes it right out of your bowls! again :-) EDgar On Sep 2, 2012, at 7:16 AM, Bill! wrote: Mike and ED, Or how about...Just continue to exchange posts with Edgar. He's got what seems to be an unlimited supply of rice gruel. He'll keep your bowl filled to the brim! ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Bill! BillSmart@ wrote: Mike, Point taken, but this is the Zen Forum, not the Theravada Forum or the Here-Have-Some-More-Rice-Gruel Forum. ED, Just sit. Don't think. Just sit. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusuboyo@ wrote: Bill!, A great instruction, and is certainly direct, but Joshu's instructions were given to a monk who had probably been practicing meditation for a long time and was already 'ripe' for awakening to happen. Imagine how useful that instruction would be to a neophyte coming off the street asking about the search for truth or something similar. Joshu's instruction is just that - an instruction. That's why i believe Buddha's skilful means (upaya) is so useful as a teaching method. On the one side we can have the direct pointing to the Dharma (Zen) and on the other we can have Therevada Buddhism with it's more step by step instructions, such as following the Noble eightfold Path. The Buddha was very wise to understand that there are many different kinds of people/cultures/personalities etc. out there and no one method will work for all. I think it should be clear now that wash you bowls just isn't going to work for someone like ED. If you agree, what else could you say that might help him? Mike From: Bill! BillSmart@ To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 9:48 Subject: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils  ED, Mind if Joshu and I jump in? WASH YOUR BOWLS! That's how...Bill! (and Joshu) --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, ED seacrofter001@ wrote: Edgar, And how is this magic trick accomplished? --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: ED, Stop practicing and just BE your Buddha Nature! Edgar Edgar, Therefore, although each of us is complete, we need to practice diligently at all times with no objective in mind? --ED Joe and Merle, There is no 'goal' of enlightenment to be achieved without which you imagine you are incomplete There is no incompleteness. This understanding is an essential aspect of realization... Wham! Edgar
Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils
this morn i go to tai chi class... and gather the chi energy.i think a spirit is out there mike..the chi is within what doth thee say edgar?..merle Edgar, Don't you contradict yourself here somewhat? You were previously critical of people from cultures where they may have a belief in dragons or rainbow serpents etc. Aren't these beliefs part of the Truth (Buddha Nature) as well then? Especially when they haven't had, or even when they have had, contact with contemporary science. If you believe in 'chi' energy, what's the difference in believing in 'spirit'? Mike From: Edgar Owen edgaro...@att.net To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 13:00 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils Bill! And that my friend is precisely the problem. Logic, like everything else that exists IS Buddha Nature. Because there is nothing that is NOT Buddha nature... I think we've honed into the absolute kernel and crux of the disagreement right here ... See what I'm saying? You adopt a dualistic view by denying part of what exists is part of Buddha Nature. I point out there is no such dualism because everything that exists is part of reality (Buddha Nature) by definition, including things such as logic and your daily life using logic making a living, that you deny is part of Buddha Nature. This is the MOST IMPORTANT post of mine to Bill! ever! I only hope this will be a super Kwatz moment and that Bill! won't try to avoid and ignore the koan as usual Edgar On Sep 2, 2012, at 7:32 AM, Bill! wrote: Edgar, Sometimes I think you don't read my posts. I NEVER said I don't use logic. I use it all the time. I make my living using it. I don't however mistake logic for Buddha Nature. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Bill!, Proving Bill! still uses his considerable intelligence to negotiate the rational world of forms contrary to what he claims and would have us believe :-) Edgar On Sep 2, 2012, at 4:46 AM, Bill! wrote: Bill, I've had a lot of practice trying to follow Edgar's posts. I'm sure you'll get the hang of it sooner or later. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, William Rintala brintala@ wrote: Thank you for that Edgar. I can follow your emails better if you give them to me a teaspoon at a time, unlike Bill! who seems to follow what you say with ease.  Bill not Bill! Find what makes your heart sing…and do it! From: Edgar Owen edgarowen@ To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sat, September 1, 2012 6:36:59 AM Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils  Joe and Merle, There is no 'goal' of enlightenment to be achieved without which you imagine you are incomplete There is no incompleteness. This understanding is an essential aspect of realization... Wham! Edgar On Aug 30, 2012, at 11:51 PM, Joe wrote:  Hiya, Merle, Nonetheless, practice formally if you are able. If you are not able, then find some way to do it. ;-) It's as important as that. Life is a little bit short, nowadays. If you report-back that it is all B.S., then we'll understand that it is so, for you... once you have given it your ALL, with a good teacher, and sangha. But I think you'll have a more positive experience, and report. In fact, I worry that you may develop attachments, especially in the realm, or area, of the Optical-sense. But when I see the paintings that afterwards result, coming from your studio, THAT will assuage my concerns, probably, and bath me in balm, I am sure. And this is what I look forward to. Yet, it's not selfishness, on my part. And, I am not attached to the possibility. But I have hopes that EVERYONE who wishes to practice under the best conditions may have their wish, and will awaken. Not just because I have done it, and have had the wonder and miracle of this chance a number of times, as many of us have, in company with so many others throughout History, and among our intimate acquaintances: but, because so many others have *not*. I know what I'm wishing you, and others, I mean. Otherwise... may the veiled-life suffice! One can't disparage where we are. One can only either realize, or not realize. Realize means realizing where we are already, but being the most clear about it. That's not a movement to somewhere else, but it is a very, very big step, as momentous as the late Neil Armstrong's. Will you trust me, about this, in this? I was 17 when he and Buzz landed, and walked, and Mike Collins orbited, station-keeping for them. Life
Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils
why written form mike..?...what's evil about pictures...merle Naked Yoga Forum? If that's run by you and Edgar, then I hope it's strictly conducted in the written medium only. God forbid. Mike From: Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 12:53 Subject: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils I agree with Edgar! ...and that's how we pump-up the post count so we can increase our commission checks and some day retire to become moderators of the Yahoo! Naked Yoga Forum. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Bill!, Mike and ED, Yes, I'll continually fill your bowls with the gruel of realization while Bill! continually washes it right out of your bowls! again :-) EDgar On Sep 2, 2012, at 7:16 AM, Bill! wrote: Mike and ED, Or how about...Just continue to exchange posts with Edgar. He's got what seems to be an unlimited supply of rice gruel. He'll keep your bowl filled to the brim! ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Bill! BillSmart@ wrote: Mike, Point taken, but this is the Zen Forum, not the Theravada Forum or the Here-Have-Some-More-Rice-Gruel Forum. ED, Just sit. Don't think. Just sit. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusuboyo@ wrote: Bill!, A great instruction, and is certainly direct, but Joshu's instructions were given to a monk who had probably been practicing meditation for a long time and was already 'ripe' for awakening to happen. Imagine how useful that instruction would be to a neophyte coming off the street asking about the search for truth or something similar. Joshu's instruction is just that - an instruction. That's why i believe Buddha's skilful means (upaya) is so useful as a teaching method. On the one side we can have the direct pointing to the Dharma (Zen) and on the other we can have Therevada Buddhism with it's more step by step instructions, such as following the Noble eightfold Path. The Buddha was very wise to understand that there are many different kinds of people/cultures/personalities etc. out there and no one method will work for all. I think it should be clear now that wash you bowls just isn't going to work for someone like ED. If you agree, what else could you say that might help him? Mike From: Bill! BillSmart@ To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 9:48 Subject: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils  ED, Mind if Joshu and I jump in? WASH YOUR BOWLS! That's how...Bill! (and Joshu) --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, ED seacrofter001@ wrote: Edgar, And how is this magic trick accomplished? --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: ED, Stop practicing and just BE your Buddha Nature! Edgar Edgar, Therefore, although each of us is complete, we need to practice diligently at all times with no objective in mind? --ED Joe and Merle, There is no 'goal' of enlightenment to be achieved without which you imagine you are incomplete There is no incompleteness. This understanding is an essential aspect of realization... Wham! Edgar
Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils
I enjoy your annotations - carry on. As you wrote so eloquently, many paths, same path. But i laughed aloud at the exchange on Zen forum vs Buddhism forum vs gruel forum. On Sep 2, 2012 2:38 PM, mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Chris, Guess we could all just shout Kwatz! at each other from now on then... Mike -- *From:* Chris Austin-Lane ch...@austin-lane.net *To:* Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com *Sent:* Sunday, 2 September 2012, 21:52 *Subject:* Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils This day it is the annotated Zen Forum. On Sep 2, 2012 4:05 AM, mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Bill!, Isn't it the Zen Buddhist Forum, at least by implication? Isn't it fair to talk about comparisons? ED, Just sit. Don't think. Just sit. But if you do find yourself thinking, just come back gently to the breath. When you find your mind has become calm become mindful of how the breath (or any bodily sensations) arises and passes. How it is that there is no 'you' doing the breathing - rather the universe is breathing 'you'. Note how even pleasant sensations eventually pass and more unpleasant, or neutral, sensations take their place. With such mindfulness you may find you gain some insight into the 3 Characteristics of existence: impermanence, non-self, and the unsatisfactoriness of phenomena. With diligence and patience, you may become liberated from suffering. Not exactly pithy, I admit. And Zen is certainly direct in pointing to our True Nature. But wash your bowls, just sit and Just This! is also not 'it' either. So if we're going to have instructions/guides, then there is definitely a place for more descriptive ones (even tho the endgame will always be that they are ultimately dropped). The method is NOT the meditation. Mike -- *From:* Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org *To:* Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com *Sent:* Sunday, 2 September 2012, 11:33 *Subject:* [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils Mike, Point taken, but this is the Zen Forum, not the Theravada Forum or the Here-Have-Some-More-Rice-Gruel Forum. ED, Just sit. Don't think. Just sit. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusuboyo@... wrote: Bill!, A great instruction, and is certainly direct, but Joshu's instructions were given to a monk who had probably been practicing meditation for a long time and was already 'ripe' for awakening to happen. Imagine how useful that instruction would be to a neophyte coming off the street asking about the search for truth or something similar. Joshu's instruction is just that - an instruction. That's why i believe Buddha's skilful means (upaya) is so useful as a teaching method. On the one side we can have the direct pointing to the Dharma (Zen) and on the other we can have Therevada Buddhism with it's more step by step instructions, such as following the Noble eightfold Path. The Buddha was very wise to understand that there are many different kinds of people/cultures/personalities etc. out there and no one method will work for all. I think it should be clear now that wash you bowls just isn't going to work for someone like ED. If you agree, what else could you say that might help him? Mike From: Bill! BillSmart@... To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 9:48 Subject: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils  ED, Mind if Joshu and I jump in? WASH YOUR BOWLS! That's how...Bill! (and Joshu) --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, ED seacrofter001@ wrote: Edgar, And how is this magic trick accomplished? --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: ED, Stop practicing and just BE your Buddha Nature! Edgar Edgar, Therefore, although each of us is complete, we need to practice diligently at all times with no objective in mind? --ED Joe and Merle, There is no 'goal' of enlightenment to be achieved without which you imagine you are incomplete There is no incompleteness. This understanding is an essential aspect of realization... Wham! Edgar
Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils
Perhaps. Perhaps not. Think what you will. You have no other choice, nor do I. Any understaning of this, tacit or otherwise, a delusion. No problem, as long as you and I can still laugh and cry. KG On 9/2/2012 5:35 PM, mike brown wrote: Kris, Don't we come here with the tacit understanding that any words used here cannot capture the ineffable? I think you know exactly what I mean, you rascal. Mike *From:* Kristopher Grey k...@kgrey.com *To:* Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com *Sent:* Sunday, 2 September 2012, 20:11 *Subject:* Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils Self appears/is born. No-self doesn't appear/is unborn. Realize these are but aspects of mind, no difference. KG On 9/2/2012 12:05 PM, mike brown wrote: Kris, Very good! You must have given that a lot of thought ; ) Self can be found nowhere else Of course. Self/Buddha Nature/Awareness is unborn (and therefore never dies) and so is ever present regardless of what we are thinking/doing. But suffering arises when we think there is an independent 'I' having those thoughts. That we have this Realisation is the difference. How this Realisation manifests is unimportant. For some it will be sudden for others gradual. But you're correct that Self alwaysis. Mke *From:* Kristopher Grey k...@kgrey.com mailto:k...@kgrey.com *To:* Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com *Sent:* Sunday, 2 September 2012, 15:42 *Subject:* Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils On 9/2/2012 7:05 AM, mike brown wrote: But if you do find yourself thinking, just come back gently to the breath. A tri-ku for you: With each rise and fall The breath is grasped and released Each, a birth and death Immersed in thinking Self can be found nowhere else Always lost in thought Mind, a stream of thought Following, or flowing by The way, like water
Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils
This matter of whether there is or isn't isn't someone to suffer is all smoke and mirrors. Suffering appears. This is clear enough. What is this notion of liberation from but self relating to self? What appears, appears. What of it? Clarity, selfless. No self that need to see into itself. No such conceptual contortions required. Don't settle for nothing. Don't attach to anything. This takes no effort. KG On 9/2/2012 5:35 PM, mike brown wrote: Kris, There is no one who suffers, but only after the realisation that there isn't even a mind for suffering to happen to is there liberation from it. Clarity here reads as insight. Mike *From:* Kristopher Grey k...@kgrey.com *To:* Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com *Sent:* Sunday, 2 September 2012, 20:23 *Subject:* Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils Then you still know too much. ;) If it so clear as that, there is nothing to see. The 'obscuration' all that may show the way. What you are seeing as separate only appears to be. All a matter of how you see it. So who is leading who? Who suffers? In seeking perfection, it forever eludes. The clear minded are equally empty headed. Don't throw the Buddha out with the bathwater. KG PS - Expresses simpler/more obviously wordlessly - see: 'Wabi Sabi' - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wabi-sabi On 9/2/2012 12:32 PM, mike brown wrote: Kris, I might point out that apparent obscuration is no less reality than apparent clarity Reality is certainly there regardless, but reality seen with obscuration leads to suffering, whereas reality seen with clarity will lead to the cessation of suffering. That's all I need to know and that is my witness. Mike *From:* Kristopher Grey k...@kgrey.com mailto:k...@kgrey.com *To:* Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com *Sent:* Sunday, 2 September 2012, 16:11 *Subject:* Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils I might point out that apparent obscuration is no less reality than apparent clarity. In doing so, this point only dances around itself - offers nothing you can't realize directly. What can anyone say in response that you will not directly experience (realize) as some aspect of this reality/realization- whether you realize it or not - just as when experiencing meditation/not meditation? This more or less business is you triangulating your position. Nothing more, nothing less. KG On 9/2/2012 5:57 AM, mike brown wrote: Edgar, Wouldn't you say tho, that reality is less obscured during, or just after, a long retreat of meditation? Mike *From:* Edgar Owen edgaro...@att.net mailto:edgaro...@att.net *To:* Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com *Sent:* Sunday, 2 September 2012, 1:13 *Subject:* Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils Mike, Well, it's reality either way, but that reality is always changing as happening continually flows through the present moment. But however it changes it is still reality Edgar On Sep 1, 2012, at 6:09 PM, mike brown wrote: Edgar, Would you say that the world (inner/outer) you look at now is the same as when you're at the end of a sesshin? Mike *From:* Edgar Owen edgaro...@att.net mailto:edgaro...@att.net *To:* Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com *Sent:* Saturday, 1 September 2012, 18:44 *Subject:* Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils ED, Stop practicing and just BE your Buddha Nature! Edgar On Sep 1, 2012, at 12:22 PM, ED wrote: Edgar, Therefore, although each of us is complete, we need to practice diligently at all times with no objective in mind? --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@... mailto:edgarowen@... wrote: Joe and Merle, There is no 'goal' of enlightenment to be achieved without which you imagine you are incomplete There is no incompleteness. This understanding is an essential aspect of realization... Wham! Edgar
Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils
How were you planning to spend it? KG On 9/2/2012 5:36 PM, mike brown wrote: Kinda loses it's currency then. Mike *From:* Kristopher Grey k...@kgrey.com *To:* Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com *Sent:* Sunday, 2 September 2012, 21:49 *Subject:* Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils So it appears. Seen, said, heard. Same. Suchness. KG On 9/2/2012 1:26 PM, mike brown wrote: Kris, Don't know (Which only appears to be a pithy zen saying when seen so) Or said so. Mike *From:* Kristopher Grey k...@kgrey.com mailto:k...@kgrey.com *To:* Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com *Sent:* Sunday, 2 September 2012, 16:14 *Subject:* Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils With or without. Why decide? Don't know (Which only appears to be a pithy zen saying when seen so) KG On 9/2/2012 7:46 AM, mike brown wrote: Edgar, Of course Realisation is not something that happens only inside monastry walls, but it also doesn't come from understanding words like ontological and cognitive simulation model either. Mike *From:* Edgar Owen edgaro...@att.net mailto:edgaro...@att.net *To:* Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com *Sent:* Sunday, 2 September 2012, 12:31 *Subject:* Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils Mike, There are certainly times it is, but that can happen at any time Realization is not just something that occurs inside monastery walls... It has nothing to do with that... It's just opening to reality and reality is everywhere... Edgar On Sep 2, 2012, at 5:57 AM, mike brown wrote: Edgar, Wouldn't you say tho, that reality is less obscured during, or just after, a long retreat of meditation? Mike *From:* Edgar Owen edgaro...@att.net mailto:edgaro...@att.net *To:* Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com *Sent:* Sunday, 2 September 2012, 1:13 *Subject:* Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils Mike, Well, it's reality either way, but that reality is always changing as happening continually flows through the present moment. But however it changes it is still reality Edgar On Sep 1, 2012, at 6:09 PM, mike brown wrote: Edgar, Would you say that the world (inner/outer) you look at now is the same as when you're at the end of a sesshin? Mike *From:* Edgar Owen edgaro...@att.net mailto:edgaro...@att.net *To:* Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com *Sent:* Saturday, 1 September 2012, 18:44 *Subject:* Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils ED, Stop practicing and just BE your Buddha Nature! Edgar On Sep 1, 2012, at 12:22 PM, ED wrote: Edgar, Therefore, although each of us is complete, we need to practice diligently at all times with no objective in mind? --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@... mailto:edgarowen@... wrote: Joe and Merle, There is no 'goal' of enlightenment to be achieved without which you imagine you are incomplete There is no incompleteness. This understanding is an essential aspect of realization... Wham! Edgar
Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils
Joe and Merle, There is no 'goal' of enlightenment to be achieved without which you imagine you are incomplete There is no incompleteness. This understanding is an essential aspect of realization... Wham! Edgar On Aug 30, 2012, at 11:51 PM, Joe wrote: Hiya, Merle, Nonetheless, practice formally if you are able. If you are not able, then find some way to do it. ;-) It's as important as that. Life is a little bit short, nowadays. If you report-back that it is all B.S., then we'll understand that it is so, for you... once you have given it your ALL, with a good teacher, and sangha. But I think you'll have a more positive experience, and report. In fact, I worry that you may develop attachments, especially in the realm, or area, of the Optical-sense. But when I see the paintings that afterwards result, coming from your studio, THAT will assuage my concerns, probably, and bath me in balm, I am sure. And this is what I look forward to. Yet, it's not selfishness, on my part. And, I am not attached to the possibility. But I have hopes that EVERYONE who wishes to practice under the best conditions may have their wish, and will awaken. Not just because I have done it, and have had the wonder and miracle of this chance a number of times, as many of us have, in company with so many others throughout History, and among our intimate acquaintances: but, because so many others have *not*. I know what I'm wishing you, and others, I mean. Otherwise... may the veiled-life suffice! One can't disparage where we are. One can only either realize, or not realize. Realize means realizing where we are already, but being the most clear about it. That's not a movement to somewhere else, but it is a very, very big step, as momentous as the late Neil Armstrong's. Will you trust me, about this, in this? I was 17 when he and Buzz landed, and walked, and Mike Collins orbited, station-keeping for them. Life was different after that. I could write volumes about how. Maybe I'm a relic. Maybe, someday, to be appreciated. ;-) --Joe Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote: ..am i on track.?
Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils
Thank you for that Edgar. I can follow your emails better if you give them to me a teaspoon at a time, unlike Bill! who seems to follow what you say with ease. Bill not Bill! Find what makes your heart sing…and do it! From: Edgar Owen edgaro...@att.net To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sat, September 1, 2012 6:36:59 AM Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils Joe and Merle, There is no 'goal' of enlightenment to be achieved without which you imagine you are incomplete There is no incompleteness. This understanding is an essential aspect of realization... Wham! Edgar On Aug 30, 2012, at 11:51 PM, Joe wrote: Hiya, Merle, Nonetheless, practice formally if you are able. If you are not able, then find some way to do it. ;-) It's as important as that. Life is a little bit short, nowadays. If you report-back that it is all B.S., then we'll understand that it is so, for you... once you have given it your ALL, with a good teacher, and sangha. But I think you'll have a more positive experience, and report. In fact, I worry that you may develop attachments, especially in the realm, or area, of the Optical-sense. But when I see the paintings that afterwards result, coming from your studio, THAT will assuage my concerns, probably, and bath me in balm, I am sure. And this is what I look forward to. Yet, it's not selfishness, on my part. And, I am not attached to the possibility. But I have hopes that EVERYONE who wishes to practice under the best conditions may have their wish, and will awaken. Not just because I have done it, and have had the wonder and miracle of this chance a number of times, as many of us have, in company with so many others throughout History, and among our intimate acquaintances: but, because so many others have *not*. I know what I'm wishing you, and others, I mean. Otherwise... may the veiled-life suffice! One can't disparage where we are. One can only either realize, or not realize. Realize means realizing where we are already, but being the most clear about it. That's not a movement to somewhere else, but it is a very, very big step, as momentous as the late Neil Armstrong's. Will you trust me, about this, in this? I was 17 when he and Buzz landed, and walked, and Mike Collins orbited, station-keeping for them. Life was different after that. I could write volumes about how. Maybe I'm a relic. Maybe, someday, to be appreciated. ;-) --Joe Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote: ..am i on track.?
Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils
ED, Stop practicing and just BE your Buddha Nature! Edgar On Sep 1, 2012, at 12:22 PM, ED wrote: Edgar, Therefore, although each of us is complete, we need to practice diligently at all times with no objective in mind? --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Joe and Merle, There is no 'goal' of enlightenment to be achieved without which you imagine you are incomplete There is no incompleteness. This understanding is an essential aspect of realization... Wham! Edgar
Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils
Edgar, Would you say that the world (inner/outer) you look at now is the same as when you're at the end of a sesshin? Mike From: Edgar Owen edgaro...@att.net To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, 1 September 2012, 18:44 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils ED, Stop practicing and just BE your Buddha Nature! Edgar On Sep 1, 2012, at 12:22 PM, ED wrote: Edgar, Therefore, although each of us is complete, we need to practice diligently at all times with no objective in mind? --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Joe and Merle, There is no 'goal' of enlightenment to be achieved without which you imagine you are incomplete There is no incompleteness. This understanding is an essential aspect of realization... Wham! Edgar
Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils
ED, It's not magic. Magic is illusion masquerading as reality. Actually magic is an excellent Zen lesson because it shows us that what we see with our senses is illusion, not reality... It's not magic, it's seeing the reality behind the magic... Edgar On Sep 1, 2012, at 2:45 PM, ED wrote: Edgar, And how is this magic trick accomplished? --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: ED, Stop practicing and just BE your Buddha Nature! Edgar Edgar, Therefore, although each of us is complete, we need to practice diligently at all times with no objective in mind? --ED Joe and Merle, There is no 'goal' of enlightenment to be achieved without which you imagine you are incomplete There is no incompleteness. This understanding is an essential aspect of realization... Wham! Edgar
Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils
Mike, Well, it's reality either way, but that reality is always changing as happening continually flows through the present moment. But however it changes it is still reality Edgar On Sep 1, 2012, at 6:09 PM, mike brown wrote: Edgar, Would you say that the world (inner/outer) you look at now is the same as when you're at the end of a sesshin? Mike From: Edgar Owen edgaro...@att.net To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, 1 September 2012, 18:44 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils ED, Stop practicing and just BE your Buddha Nature! Edgar On Sep 1, 2012, at 12:22 PM, ED wrote: Edgar, Therefore, although each of us is complete, we need to practice diligently at all times with no objective in mind? --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Joe and Merle, There is no 'goal' of enlightenment to be achieved without which you imagine you are incomplete There is no incompleteness. This understanding is an essential aspect of realization... Wham! Edgar
Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils
hi joe... i have no way of finding a teacher..i must be my own teacher yes i do develop attachments...i am human.. . ...i do go backwards and i do dwell in the past...i reflect. .i think what if how come, if only..should i have...all that stuff. .and i create my own horror in the now and in the future..with the maybes etc.. ..i try to see this is not the way..i know in my heart of hearts this is not tao the way. .i do not dance on daffodils ..i tiptoe..i would never crush them. ..why this hatred of the dancing with the daffodils?. .it is only reflection of a sun filled mind..full of light..and openness and lightness of being. .otherwise it would be for me a dark murky dull grey... a doom a gloom...i know these places well i may develop attachments to optical vision ..but bare in mind joe..i transform what i see...i do not copy nature..i record my feelings, my insights, my delights..do you get my drift? when buzz landed on the moon i was in the classroom teaching art..with the t.v on...yea.. . you are younger than me..i turn 67 on 23rd sept as for nature...she is my light what others think of nature? how do i know? i know what i know and that sums it up if my understanding of zen is so poor... i am still learning i listen and learn that is all i can do attachment desire... release me please i long for peace but do i have it? i long for love but do i have it? i long for knowing but do i have it? i await patiently for release all the best joe.. with love merle Hiya, Merle, Nonetheless, practice formally if you are able. If you are not able, then find some way to do it. ;-) It's as important as that. Life is a little bit short, nowadays. If you report-back that it is all B.S., then we'll understand that it is so, for you... once you have given it your ALL, with a good teacher, and sangha. But I think you'll have a more positive experience, and report. In fact, I worry that you may develop attachments, especially in the realm, or area, of the Optical-sense. But when I see the paintings that afterwards result, coming from your studio, THAT will assuage my concerns, probably, and bath me in balm, I am sure. And this is what I look forward to. Yet, it's not selfishness, on my part. And, I am not attached to the possibility. But I have hopes that EVERYONE who wishes to practice under the best conditions may have their wish, and will awaken. Not just because I have done it, and have had the wonder and miracle of this chance a number of times, as many of us have, in company with so many others throughout History, and among our intimate acquaintances: but, because so many others have *not*. I know what I'm wishing you, and others, I mean. Otherwise... may the veiled-life suffice! One can't disparage where we are. One can only either realize, or not realize. Realize means realizing where we are already, but being the most clear about it. That's not a movement to somewhere else, but it is a very, very big step, as momentous as the late Neil Armstrong's. Will you trust me, about this, in this? I was 17 when he and Buzz landed, and walked, and Mike Collins orbited, station-keeping for them. Life was different after that. I could write volumes about how. Maybe I'm a relic. Maybe, someday, to be appreciated. ;-) --Joe Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote: ..am i on track.?
Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils
Joe and Merle, There is no 'goal' of enlightenment to be achieved without which you imagine you are incomplete There is no incompleteness. This understanding is an essential aspect of realization... Wham! Edgar On Aug 30, 2012, at 11:51 PM, Joe wrote: Hiya, Merle, Nonetheless, practice formally if you are able. If you are not able, then find some way to do it. ;-) It's as important as that. Life is a little bit short, nowadays. If you report-back that it is all B.S., then we'll understand that it is so, for you... once you have given it your ALL, with a good teacher, and sangha. But I think you'll have a more positive experience, and report. In fact, I worry that you may develop attachments, especially in the realm, or area, of the Optical-sense. But when I see the paintings that afterwards result, coming from your studio, THAT will assuage my concerns, probably, and bath me in balm, I am sure. And this is what I look forward to. Yet, it's not selfishness, on my part. And, I am not attached to the possibility. But I have hopes that EVERYONE who wishes to practice under the best conditions may have their wish, and will awaken. Not just because I have done it, and have had the wonder and miracle of this chance a number of times, as many of us have, in company with so many others throughout History, and among our intimate acquaintances: but, because so many others have *not*. I know what I'm wishing you, and others, I mean. Otherwise... may the veiled-life suffice! One can't disparage where we are. One can only either realize, or not realize. Realize means realizing where we are already, but being the most clear about it. That's not a movement to somewhere else, but it is a very, very big step, as momentous as the late Neil Armstrong's. Will you trust me, about this, in this? I was 17 when he and Buzz landed, and walked, and Mike Collins orbited, station-keeping for them. Life was different after that. I could write volumes about how. Maybe I'm a relic. Maybe, someday, to be appreciated. ;-) --Joe Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote: ..am i on track.?
Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils
Merle, Everyone, being human, has attachments. The trick is not to be attached to your attachments! When attachments arise just let them pass. There is always something else new and fresh to fill the emptiness (more accurately manifest rather than fill the emptiness) Let attention not follow the attachment to pull it back to the present, but let attention look to where something wonderful is coming into being right now Edgar On Aug 31, 2012, at 4:15 AM, Merle Lester wrote: hi joe... i have no way of finding a teacher..i must be my own teacher yes i do develop attachments...i am human.. . ...i do go backwards and i do dwell in the past...i reflect. .i think what if how come, if only..should i have...all that stuff. .and i create my own horror in the now and in the future..with the maybes etc.. ..i try to see this is not the way..i know in my heart of hearts this is not tao the way. .i do not dance on daffodils ..i tiptoe..i would never crush them. ..why this hatred of the dancing with the daffodils?. .it is only reflection of a sun filled mind..full of light..and openness and lightness of being. .otherwise it would be for me a dark murky dull grey... a doom a gloom...i know these places well i may develop attachments to optical vision ..but bare in mind joe..i transform what i see...i do not copy nature..i record my feelings, my insights, my delights..do you get my drift? when buzz landed on the moon i was in the classroom teaching art..with the t.v on...yea.. . you are younger than me..i turn 67 on 23rd sept as for nature...she is my light what others think of nature? how do i know? i know what i know and that sums it up if my understanding of zen is so poor... i am still learning i listen and learn that is all i can do attachment desire... release me please i long for peace but do i have it? i long for love but do i have it? i long for knowing but do i have it? i await patiently for release all the best joe.. with love merle Hiya, Merle, Nonetheless, practice formally if you are able. If you are not able, then find some way to do it. ;-) It's as important as that. Life is a little bit short, nowadays. If you report-back that it is all B.S., then we'll understand that it is so, for you... once you have given it your ALL, with a good teacher, and sangha. But I think you'll have a more positive experience, and report. In fact, I worry that you may develop attachments, especially in the realm, or area, of the Optical-sense. But when I see the paintings that afterwards result, coming from your studio, THAT will assuage my concerns, probably, and bath me in balm, I am sure. And this is what I look forward to. Yet, it's not selfishness, on my part. And, I am not attached to the possibility. But I have hopes that EVERYONE who wishes to practice under the best conditions may have their wish, and will awaken. Not just because I have done it, and have had the wonder and miracle of this chance a number of times, as many of us have, in company with so many others throughout History, and among our intimate acquaintances: but, because so many others have *not*. I know what I'm wishing you, and others, I mean. Otherwise... may the veiled-life suffice! One can't disparage where we are. One can only either realize, or not realize. Realize means realizing where we are already, but being the most clear about it. That's not a movement to somewhere else, but it is a very, very big step, as momentous as the late Neil Armstrong's. Will you trust me, about this, in this? I was 17 when he and Buzz landed, and walked, and Mike Collins orbited, station-keeping for them. Life was different after that. I could write volumes about how. Maybe I'm a relic. Maybe, someday, to be appreciated. ;-) --Joe Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote: ..am i on track.?
Re: [Zen] Re: dancing with the daffodils
edgar..this is good sound advice..thank you... i must be ever mindful...bless you. .thank you for taking the time to assist me through my uncertainty and the never ending tangles and knots in my mind.. . enjoy your weekend...merle Merle, Everyone, being human, has attachments. The trick is not to be attached to your attachments! When attachments arise just let them pass. There is always something else new and fresh to fill the emptiness (more accurately manifest rather than fill the emptiness) Let attention not follow the attachment to pull it back to the present, but let attention look to where something wonderful is coming into being right now Edgar On Aug 31, 2012, at 4:15 AM, Merle Lester wrote: hi joe... i have no way of finding a teacher..i must be my own teacher yes i do develop attachments...i am human.. . ...i do go backwards and i do dwell in the past...i reflect. .i think what if how come, if only..should i have...all that stuff. .and i create my own horror in the now and in the future..with the maybes etc.. ..i try to see this is not the way..i know in my heart of hearts this is not tao the way. .i do not dance on daffodils ..i tiptoe..i would never crush them. ..why this hatred of the dancing with the daffodils?. .it is only reflection of a sun filled mind..full of light..and openness and lightness of being. .otherwise it would be for me a dark murky dull grey... a doom a gloom...i know these places well i may develop attachments to optical vision ..but bare in mind joe..i transform what i see...i do not copy nature..i record my feelings, my insights, my delights..do you get my drift? when buzz landed on the moon i was in the classroom teaching art..with the t.v on...yea.. . you are younger than me..i turn 67 on 23rd sept as for nature...she is my light what others think of nature? how do i know? i know what i know and that sums it up if my understanding of zen is so poor... i am still learning i listen and learn that is all i can do attachment desire... release me please i long for peace but do i have it? i long for love but do i have it? i long for knowing but do i have it? i await patiently for release all the best joe.. with love merle Hiya, Merle, Nonetheless, practice formally if you are able. If you are not able, then find some way to do it. ;-) It's as important as that. Life is a little bit short, nowadays. If you report-back that it is all B.S., then we'll understand that it is so, for you... once you have given it your ALL, with a good teacher, and sangha. But I think you'll have a more positive experience, and report. In fact, I worry that you may develop attachments, especially in the realm, or area, of the Optical-sense. But when I see the paintings that afterwards result, coming from your studio, THAT will assuage my concerns, probably, and bath me in balm, I am sure. And this is what I look forward to. Yet, it's not selfishness, on my part. And, I am not attached to the possibility. But I have hopes that EVERYONE who wishes to practice under the best conditions may have their wish, and will awaken. Not just because I have done it, and have had the wonder and miracle of this chance a number of times, as many of us have, in company with so many others throughout History, and among our intimate acquaintances: but, because so many others have *not*. I know what I'm wishing you, and others, I mean. Otherwise... may the veiled-life suffice! One can't disparage where we are. One can only either realize, or not realize. Realize means realizing where we are already, but being the most clear about it. That's not a movement to somewhere else, but it is a very, very big step, as momentous as the late Neil Armstrong's. Will you trust me, about this, in this? I was 17 when he and Buzz landed, and walked, and Mike Collins orbited, station-keeping for them. Life was different after that. I could write volumes about how. Maybe I'm a relic. Maybe, someday, to be appreciated. ;-) --Joe Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote: ..am i on track.?
