Re: [zfs-discuss] [desktop-discuss] ZFS snapshot GUI
Christian Kelly 写道: Hi Calum, heh, as it happens, I was tinkering with pygtk to see how difficult this would be :) Supposing I have a ZFS on my machine called root/export/home which is mounted on /export/home. Then I have my home dir as /export/home/chris. Say I only want to snapshot and backup /export/home/chris/Documents. I can't create a snapshot of /export/home/chris/Documents as it is a directory, I have to create a snapshot of the parent ZFS, in this case /export/home/. So there isn't really the granularity that the attached spec implies. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I just tried it and it didn't work. I've had a bit of a look at 'Time Machine' and I'd be more in favour of that style of backup. Just back up everything so I don't have to think about it. My feeling is that picking individual directories out just causes confusion. Think of it this way: how much change is there on a daily basis on your desktop/laptop? Those snapshots aren't going to grow very quickly. Time Machine is storing all in the system by default, but you still can select some ones that you don't like to store. And Time Machine don't use ZFS. Here we will use ZFS snapshot, and what it's working with is file system. In Nevada, the default file system is not ZFS, it means some directory is not ZFS, so seems you have to select some directory which is ZFS, and it's impossible for you to store all, (some are not ZFS)... -Christian Calum Benson wrote: Hi all, We've been thinking a little about a more integrated desktop presence for Tim Foster's ZFS backup and snapshot services[1]. Here are some initial ideas about what a Phase 0 (snapshot only, not backup) user experience might look like... comments welcome. http://www.genunix.org/wiki/index.php/ZFS_Snapshot (I'm not subscribed to zfs-discuss, so please make sure either desktop-discuss or I remain cc'ed on any replies if you want me to see them...) Cheeri, Calum. [1] http://blogs.sun.com/timf/entry/zfs_automatic_for_the_people ___ desktop-discuss mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Henry Zhang JDS Software Development, OPG Sun China Engineering Research Institute Sun Microsystems, Inc. 10/F Chuang Xin Plaza, Tsinghua Science Park Beijing 100084, P.R. China Tel: +86 10 62673866 Fax: +86 10 62780969 eMail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] [desktop-discuss] ZFS snapshot GUI
Time Machine is storing all in the system by default, but you still can select some ones that you don't like to store. And Time Machine don't use ZFS. Here we will use ZFS snapshot, and what it's working with is file system. In Nevada, the default file system is not ZFS, it means some directory is not ZFS, so seems you have to select some directory which is ZFS, and it's impossible for you to store all, (some are not ZFS)... What I'm suggesting is that the configuration presents a list of pools and their ZFSes and that you have a checkbox, backup/don't backup sort of an option. When you start having nested ZFSes it could get confusing as to what you are actually backing up if you start browsing down through the filesystem with the likes of nautilus. Take the example I gave before, where you have a pool called, say, pool1. In the pool you have two ZFSes: pool1/export and pool1/export/home. So, suppose the user chooses /export in nautilus and adds this to the backup list. Will the user be aware, from browsing through nautilus, that /export/home may or may not be backed up - depending on whether the -r (?) option is used. I guess what I'm saying is, how aware of the behavior of ZFS must the user be in order to use this backup system? -Christian ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] [desktop-discuss] ZFS snapshot GUI
On Tue, 2007-11-20 at 13:35 +, Christian Kelly wrote: What I'm suggesting is that the configuration presents a list of pools and their ZFSes and that you have a checkbox, backup/don't backup sort of an option. That's basically the (hacked-up) zenity GUI I have at the moment on my blog, download install the packages and you'll see - I think getting that in a proper tree-structure help ? Right now, there's a bug in my gui, such that with: [X] tank [ ] tank/timf [ ] tank/timf/Documents [ ] tank/timf/Music Selecting tank implicitly marks the other filesystems for backup because of the way zfs properties inherit. (load the above gui again having just selected tank, and you'll see the other filesystems being selected for you) Having said that, I like Calum's ideas - and am happy to defer the decision about the gui to someone a lot more qualified than I in this area :-) I think that when browsing directories in nautilus, it would be good to have some sort of backup or snapshot icon (ála the little padlock in secure web-browsing sessions) to let you know this directory is being either backed up, and/or included in snapshots. cheers, tim -- Tim Foster, Sun Microsystems Inc, Solaris Engineering Ops http://blogs.sun.com/timf ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] [desktop-discuss] ZFS snapshot GUI
On 20 Nov 2007, at 12:56, Christian Kelly wrote: Hi Calum, heh, as it happens, I was tinkering with pygtk to see how difficult this would be :) Supposing I have a ZFS on my machine called root/export/home which is mounted on /export/home. Then I have my home dir as /export/home/ chris. Say I only want to snapshot and backup /export/home/chris/ Documents. I can't create a snapshot of /export/home/chris/ Documents as it is a directory, I have to create a snapshot of the parent ZFS, in this case /export/home/. So there isn't really the granularity that the attached spec implies. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I just tried it and it didn't work. Right, for Phase 0 the thinking was that you'd really have to manually set up whatever pools and filesystems you required first. So in your example, you (or, perhaps, the Indiana installer) would have had to set up /export/home/chris/Documents as a ZFS filesystem in its own right before you could start taking snapshots of it. Were we to stick with this general design, in later phases, creating a new ZFS filesystem on the fly, and migrating the contents of the existing folder into to it, would hopefully happen behind the scenes when you selected that folder to be backed up. (That could presumably be quite a long operation, though, for folders with large contents.) I've had a bit of a look at 'Time Machine' and I'd be more in favour of that style of backup. Just back up everything so I don't have to think about it. My feeling is that picking individual directories out just causes confusion. Think of it this way: how much change is there on a daily basis on your desktop/laptop? Those snapshots aren't going to grow very quickly. I have no problem looking at it from that angle if it turns out that's what people want-- much of the UI would be fairly similar. But at the same time, I don't necessarily always expect OSX users' requirements to be the same as Solaris users' requirements-- I'd especially like to hear from people who are already using Tim's snapshot and backup services, to find out how they use it and what their needs are. Cheeri, Calum. -- CALUM BENSON, Usability Engineer Sun Microsystems Ireland mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]GNOME Desktop Team http://blogs.sun.com/calum +353 1 819 9771 Any opinions are personal and not necessarily those of Sun Microsystems ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] [desktop-discuss] ZFS snapshot GUI
Calum Benson wrote: Right, for Phase 0 the thinking was that you'd really have to manually set up whatever pools and filesystems you required first. So in your example, you (or, perhaps, the Indiana installer) would have had to set up /export/home/chris/Documents as a ZFS filesystem in its own right before you could start taking snapshots of it. Were we to stick with this general design, in later phases, creating a new ZFS filesystem on the fly, and migrating the contents of the existing folder into to it, would hopefully happen behind the scenes when you selected that folder to be backed up. (That could presumably be quite a long operation, though, for folders with large contents.) Ah, I see. So, for phase 0, the 'Enable Automatic Snapshots' option would only be available for/work for existing ZFSes. Then at some later stage, create them on the fly. I have no problem looking at it from that angle if it turns out that's what people want-- much of the UI would be fairly similar. But at the same time, I don't necessarily always expect OSX users' requirements to be the same as Solaris users' requirements-- I'd especially like to hear from people who are already using Tim's snapshot and backup services, to find out how they use it and what their needs are. Yes, absolutely, OSX users' requirements probably vary wildly from those of a Solaris users'. I guess I fall into what we might call the 'lazy' category of user ;) I'm aware of Tim's tool, don't use it though. -Christian ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] [desktop-discuss] ZFS snapshot GUI
On 20 Nov 2007, at 13:35, Christian Kelly wrote: Take the example I gave before, where you have a pool called, say, pool1. In the pool you have two ZFSes: pool1/export and pool1/ export/home. So, suppose the user chooses /export in nautilus and adds this to the backup list. Will the user be aware, from browsing through nautilus, that /export/home may or may not be backed up - depending on whether the -r (?) option is used. I'd consider that to be a fairly strong requirement, but it's not something I particularly thought through for the mockups. One solution might be to change the nautilus background for folders that are being backed up, another might be an indicator in the status bar, another might be emblems on the folder icons themselves. Which approach works best would probably depend on whether we expect most of the folders people are browsing reguarly to be backed up, or not backed up-- in general, you'd want any sort of indicator to show the less common state. Cheeri, Calum. -- CALUM BENSON, Usability Engineer Sun Microsystems Ireland mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]GNOME Desktop Team http://blogs.sun.com/calum +353 1 819 9771 Any opinions are personal and not necessarily those of Sun Microsystems ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] [desktop-discuss] ZFS snapshot GUI
Calum Benson wrote: On 20 Nov 2007, at 13:35, Christian Kelly wrote: Take the example I gave before, where you have a pool called, say, pool1. In the pool you have two ZFSes: pool1/export and pool1/ export/home. So, suppose the user chooses /export in nautilus and adds this to the backup list. Will the user be aware, from browsing through nautilus, that /export/home may or may not be backed up - depending on whether the -r (?) option is used. I'd consider that to be a fairly strong requirement, but it's not something I particularly thought through for the mockups. One solution might be to change the nautilus background for folders that are being backed up, another might be an indicator in the status bar, another might be emblems on the folder icons themselves. I think changing the background is a non starter since users can change the background already anyway. An emblem is good for the case where you are looking from above a dataset that is tagged for backup. An indicator in the status bar is good for when you are in a dataset that is tagged for backup. -- Darren J Moffat ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] [desktop-discuss] ZFS snapshot GUI
On 20 Nov 2007, at 15:04, Darren J Moffat wrote: Calum Benson wrote: On 20 Nov 2007, at 13:35, Christian Kelly wrote: Take the example I gave before, where you have a pool called, say, pool1. In the pool you have two ZFSes: pool1/export and pool1/ export/home. So, suppose the user chooses /export in nautilus and adds this to the backup list. Will the user be aware, from browsing through nautilus, that /export/home may or may not be backed up - depending on whether the -r (?) option is used. I'd consider that to be a fairly strong requirement, but it's not something I particularly thought through for the mockups. One solution might be to change the nautilus background for folders that are being backed up, another might be an indicator in the status bar, another might be emblems on the folder icons themselves. I think changing the background is a non starter since users can change the background already anyway. You're right that they can, and while that probably does write it off, I wonder how many really do. (And we could possibly do something clever like a semi-opaque overlay anyway, we may not have to replace the background entirely.) All just brainstorming at this stage though, other ideas welcome :) An emblem is good for the case where you are looking from above a dataset that is tagged for backup. An indicator in the status bar is good for when you are in a dataset that is tagged for backup. Yep, all true. Also need to bear in mind that nowadays, with the (fairly) new nautilus treeview, you can potentially see both in and above at the same time, so any solution would have to work elegantly with that view too. Cheeri, Calum. -- CALUM BENSON, Usability Engineer Sun Microsystems Ireland mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]GNOME Desktop Team http://blogs.sun.com/calum +353 1 819 9771 Any opinions are personal and not necessarily those of Sun Microsystems ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] [desktop-discuss] ZFS snapshot GUI
On 20 Nov 2007, at 14:31, Christian Kelly wrote: Ah, I see. So, for phase 0, the 'Enable Automatic Snapshots' option would only be available for/work for existing ZFSes. Then at some later stage, create them on the fly. Yes, that's the scenario for the mockups I posted, anyway... if the requirements are bogus, then of course we'll have to change them :) My original mockup did allow you to create a pool/filesystem on the fly if required, but it felt like the wrong place to be doing that-- if you could understand the dialog to do that, you would probably know how to do it better on the command line anyway. Longer term, I guess we might be wanting to ship some sort of ZFS management GUI that might be better suited to that sort of thing (maybe like the Nexenta app that Roman mentioned earlier, but I haven't really looked at that yet...) Cheeri, Calum. -- CALUM BENSON, Usability Engineer Sun Microsystems Ireland mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]GNOME Desktop Team http://blogs.sun.com/calum +353 1 819 9771 Any opinions are personal and not necessarily those of Sun Microsystems ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] [desktop-discuss] ZFS snapshot GUI
Calum Benson wrote: You're right that they can, and while that probably does write it off, I wonder how many really do. (And we could possibly do something clever like a semi-opaque overlay anyway, we may not have to replace the background entirely.) Almost everyone I've seen using the filemanager other than myself has done this :-) If you do a semi-opaque overlay thats going to require lots of colour selection stuff - plus what if the background is a complex image (why people do this I don't know but I've seen it done). An emblem is good for the case where you are looking from above a dataset that is tagged for backup. An indicator in the status bar is good for when you are in a dataset that is tagged for backup. Yep, all true. Also need to bear in mind that nowadays, with the (fairly) new nautilus treeview, you can potentially see both in and above at the same time, so any solution would have to work elegantly with that view too. I would expect emblem in the tree and status bar indicator for the non tree part. -- Darren J Moffat ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
