earwaxer9;571531 Wrote:
I think John has put his finger on an important point here! -
It reminds me of college physics. Specifically the Heisenberg
uncertainty principle. Sometimes when you try to observe/measure
something you cant help but change what it is you are trying to
Clearly someone has taken notes... They have seen Steve Jobs pendle his
merchandise using the magical word and thought that if he can sell
snakeoil at those prices... why cant we?!
--
slate
Main: Duet - Beresford Caiman - Carver A-500x - BW 704
Office: Duet - Technics SU-V50 - Stax SR84 Pro
Mnyb;571592 Wrote:
And the digital out, are people still suggesting that the digital
output is affected ?
Yes, if something in the Touch changes the jitter of the clock going to
the DAC chip it will also change the jitter of the clock used for S/PDIF
(its the same clock in the Touch),
Phil Leigh;571614 Wrote:
We are in the material world, where the effect of jitter on a DAC can
only appear as deviations in frequency/amplitude in the analogue audio
signal.
Phil,
I think you ignored time scale, what about phase response?
--
michael123
Fortunately the test between flac and PCM stream decode is very easy to
do. It can be be done remotely, in another room and there is no
indication on the Touch itself what the state is.
A predetermined random sequence can be devised (computer or real coin
flip or whatever). The tester sends an
As I mentioned before.
It is not about flac vs. wav.
It is about different (non-linear) load conditions caused by the
realtime decoding.
@John: You might have seen that Gordon Rankin avoids strictly to use
the
term jitter in a discussions like this. Since quite some time he
is
referring to
I bought one from Neal at SoundScience.
(authorized dealer with full warranty)
soundsciencecat.com/Transporterweekendspecial.html
$1499.99 delivered inside U.S.
$1599.99 delivered outside U.S.
--
DragonEars
JohnSwenson;571631 Wrote:
Fortunately the test between flac and PCM stream decode is very easy to
do. It can be be done remotely, in another room and there is no
indication on the Touch itself what the state is.
A predetermined random sequence can be devised (computer or real coin
flip
Logitech's sell policy is a complete mystery to me. Apparently, the
transporter is almost unavailable in the US and Canada, while you can
buy it here everywhere (albeit for the -- almost -- full price): at the
Logitech store, amazon.de (third party shop), wifimedia.eu, to name just
a few.
lrossouw;571645 Wrote:
We are trying to get whether the two processes result in different sound
to a user. This test would allow us to reject the hypotheis that method
1 (stream pcm) is not better than method 2 (stream flac) with a
probability of error of x%. The smaller you want x% to be
Variables have not been talked about in recent posts about testing.
A) Which stereo equipment will be used?
Cant you hear it now, of course you didnt hear a difference Charlie,
your gear isnt revealing enough.
B) Do you need a stock or modified Touch to be able to hear the
differences?
JohnSwenson;571631 Wrote:
A predetermined random sequence can be devised (computer or real coin
flip or whatever). The tester sends an email to the changer person
who looks up the next state on the list and changes the setting in the
server. After sending the email the tester waits one
JohnSwenson;571631 Wrote:
Then the big question is how many tests to run. When others have done
other tests and only done 8 or 10 tests they have been beaten up by
some people saying that is way too small a number of tests, you need to
do several hundred to be scientifically valid. Whats
soundcheck;571632 Wrote:
As I mentioned before.
It is not about flac vs. wav.
It is about different (non-linear) load conditions caused by the
realtime decoding.
@John: You might have seen that Gordon Rankin strictly avoids to use
the
term jitter in a discussion like this. Since
michael123;571627 Wrote:
Phil,
I think you ignored time scale, what about phase response?
Timescale is fixed by the DAC clock, which is supposed to be a constant
for the duration of a replay event.
Almost no DAC's take their clock directly from the s/pdif stream any
more - they almost all
NewBuyer;571683 Wrote:
Some (possibly incorrect) observations here: If you wish to use the
binomial sign test, then you should probably not use the same piece of
music for separate trial iterations (as this could possibly violate the
independence of trials requirement). If your research
CharlieG;571708 Wrote:
Variables have not been talked about in recent posts about testing.
A) Which stereo equipment will be used?
Cant you hear it now, of course you didnt hear a difference Charlie,
your gear isnt revealing enough.
B) Do you need a stock or modified Touch to be
cliveb;571716 Wrote:
Just take a track you say exhibits an audible difference between FLAC
and PCM, and store it on the SB Server in both FLAC and PCM formats.
Then get someone to build a playlist containing these two versions at
random. (Flipping a coin to decide each item is probably the
We all know that it's inevitable that the device will be withdrawn given
the lack of VFD displays. I don't find it surprising that some retailers
have exhausted their stock and cannot be replenished. If you want one,
you better find it now!
--
ghostrider
I still like phils idea about measuring it better .
If it can be measured we don't need an elaborate dbt test.
Dbt is great for weeding out if there is a difference if we have many
unknown to fight with .
The output is not an unknown it is an electrical signal and it can be
measured.
If it
Hey we have thoose very low level test signals that MSWlogo used in his
dac resolution test .
Why not play for example the -108dB 3500Hz tone crank up the volume sit
with the ear next to the speaker and listen .
This is ofcourse totally unatural to how you use your stereo normally
but if the WAV
Cambridge DACMagic is a worthy and effective addition to the internal
DACs in my Touch, Classic and Duet.
--
turbot fiend
turbot fiend's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=22691
View this thread:
lrossouw;571794 Wrote:
Well the tests need to be done with whoever believes it to be different.
E.g. someone who says I can hear the difference on system XYZ.
The equipment shouldn't make a difference unless there is something
that artificially changes the sound depending on what type of
Mnyb;571802 Wrote:
I still like phils idea about measuring it better .
If it can be measured we don't need an elaborate dbt test.
Dbt is great for weeding out if there is a difference if we have many
unknown to fight with .
The output is not an unknown it is an electrical signal and
Dave (Northumberland);569577 Wrote:
I had a demo of a Naim Dac and a Cyrus Dac XP with my Touch. The Naim
killed the Cyrus across the board but no surprise as its more money
without the pre built in.
Both these dacs were out of my price range really and I was only having
a listen out of
slate;571619 Wrote:
Clearly someone has taken notes... They have seen Steve Jobs pendle his
merchandise using the magical word and thought that if he can sell
snakeoil at those prices... why cant we?!
But but but Steve Jobs is magical: he turns investors money into much
more money and all
ralphpnj;571818 Wrote:
But but but Steve Jobs is magical: he turns investors money into much
more money and all without flac or flash support!
Just what does Jobs have against things beginning with the letters
fla?
Sorry but there can never, under any circumstances, be enough Steve
It's so good to be in the company of others who consider Apple to be the
ultimate Evil Empire. . .
--
RonM
RonM's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=17029
View this thread:
Mnyb;571926 Wrote:
re Music:
Why not use music the test perssons is familiar with.
Or in case of some agreed upon 24/96 tunes let them have it an week in
advance.
Would this increase chances of detection, it would not give you a
general case but thats not needed, if someone can here it
lrossouw;571929 Wrote:
Agreed. I was suggesting that the person who is doing the tests chose
the music they think there is a difference in. It would be great if we
can limit it to normal 16/44 CD quality music as this is what most
people listen to most of the time.
Agreed on settings
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