Christian here, reply inline,
On Sat, 29 Apr 2017 08:07:59 +1000, Linux for blind general discussion wrote:
> Luke Yelavich here, reply inline.
>
> On Fri, Apr 28, 2017 at 11:18:22PM AEST, Linux for blind general
> discussion wrote:
>> BTW.: During this discussion many things have been said
Hello, this is Samuel,
Eric Oyen, on mar. 18 avril 2017 08:23:34 -0700, wrote:
> here is one thing that might be distro independent: create an
> accessibility package set.
As mentioned by others in the thread, doing it as a distribution of
binaries will lead to a lot of problems. Having it as a
I'm not as old fashioned as some, but I'll take a forum dedicated to a
specific subject over the mega social sites anyday, and I'll leave
promotion on the megasocial sites as an exercise for those who enjoy
that environment.
Outside of these blind-specific lists, I haven't run into very many
Hi,
On Do, Apr 27, 2017 at 12:16:36 +, Linux for blind general discussion wrote:
>Thank you for additional information on SBl and the link.
Your wellcome :-).
>I have no idea how old the version of SBL I'm using is, but as far as
>I'm concerned, it has yet to show it's age, and if I had a
Tony Baechler here.
No, I'm talking about attracting as many new users as possible, blind or
sighted with a focus on teens and young adults. I'm being very generalized
here, but if a blind teen gets really interested in what Linux can do but
sees the glaring limitations, they might be willing
Tony Baechler here.
I would say you're not worrying enough. The sighted expect to be understood.
They expect the blind to be able to read what they're saying. I know I've
missed things because they aren't read. I can usually figure out from the
person and context what they mean, but not
Tony Baechler here. I did this with my DECtalk Express and grub quite a long
time ago. Download this file and put it in /etc/default/ on Debian-based
systems. Run update-grub and reboot. It should come up talking at the boot
prompt before Linux starts.
http://batsupport.com/unsupported/grub
Tony Baechler here. Kyle, Kyle, Kyle. You're still missing the point. You
seem to think I'm in love with a kernel-based screen reader and my mind is
closed to alternatives. OK, let me try again.
On 4/26/2017 2:52 PM, Linux for blind general discussion wrote:
I myself am completely opposed to
Tony Baechler here.
First, regarding SBL, yes, the .de email would be correct. Here is a generic
command to figure out which binaries a Debian (.deb) package installs:
dpkg -L sbl | grep bin
Regarding boot messages, I usually don't want to hear them either. I silence
Speakup as soon as it
Yes, that's true, and it's why some like the Emacspeak "audio desktop"
with its ability of playing media and presenting structured and
formatted text which no other interface has come close to yet.
Sure, Audacious is nice, and Emacs has no way of dealing with
According to John Heim:
# Kyle, it is just your opinion that a screen reader should not be in the
# kernel. And your reasoning for saying that amounts to that it shouldn't
# be in the kernel.
I'm sorry you have such a hard time fully reading what I wrote. I did
indeed give a fair number of
Hi,
Terminals exclude blind people for the remaining of society. It
requieres real computing skills. Rejected by many users who use computer
just to work. Terminal is unable to make the user have benefit with
modern Web techno. Well, it's a geek interface, amazing but not for
everybody. Just for
But we're talking about attracting blind users, right? Shells and
terminals are more natural for us than GUIs. Instructing the computer
is far more intuitive than pretending that it's a two-dimensional
surface with pictures on it.
Amanda
On 4/27/17, Linux for blind general discussion
Sure, but if eSpeak cannot read Emoji and such, and we want new users to
use the web, they’ll quickly see that as "just another thing to
file a bug about and hope some one will fix it." Although,
people on the audio games forum are getting into Linux, and
don’t seem
Good. Any work with speech dispatcher will go a long way.
--
Sent from Discordia using Gnus for Emacs.
Email: r.d.t.pra...@gmail.com
Long days and pleasant nights!
Linux for blind general discussion writes:
> On Fri, Apr 28, 2017 at 02:27:12AM AEST, Linux for blind
According to r.d.t.prater:
# Otherwise, they’ll turn back to iOS, and Voiceover,
# which can speak Emoji and such, pretty quickly.
Not quite. I happen to know that Android and Google's speech synthesizer
can speak emojis as well, and has had such capability for some time. On
my Android
#+OPTIONS: latex:t toc:nil H:3
However way we do it, it sure needs doing if we want wide adoption of
Linux by the young blind, who /expect/ it to work.
--
Sent from Discordia using Gnus for Emacs.
Email: r.d.t.pra...@gmail.com
Long days and pleasant nights!
Linux for blind general
On Fri, Apr 28, 2017 at 02:27:12AM AEST, Linux for blind general discussion
wrote:
> At this point, speech-dispatcher is not designed to be a text processor, as
> correct me if I'm wrong, but I do believe it assumes that supported
> synthesizers already have built in text processing capabilities.
Linux for blind general discussion writes:
> Sure, let synthesizers handle ASCII text, but give synthesizers the
> textual pronunciation of Unicode characters, such as smiling face.
Chris Brannon here.
This works fine if you assume that everyone wants English and
Kyle, it is just your opinion that a screen reader should not be in the
kernel. And your reasoning for saying that amounts to that it shouldn't
be in the kernel. You are making a meaningless distinction between a
serial console and a screen reader. What difference does it make if
there is a
Then we'd better get eSpeak supporting Unicode pronunciation before I
can confidently recommend anything besides Emacspeak to younger
generations. Otherwise, they’ll turn back to iOS, and Voiceover,
which can speak Emoji and such, pretty quickly. I know, I’m not
a
At this point, speech-dispatcher is not designed to be a text processor,
as correct me if I'm wrong, but I do believe it assumes that supported
synthesizers already have built in text processing capabilities. Any
pronunciation handling in either speech-dispatcher or a screen reader
should
well, the fact is, Speech Dispatcher is what Orca currently uses, so
that Orca doesn’t have to keep up with changes to eSpeak’s
functions. After all, having many communications between
synthesizers is why Emacspeak’s eSpeak support is so bad in the
first place,
Aall the money IAVIT has ever gotten has come from knowing someone. Most
corporate foundations don't even take unsolicited grant applications.
You have to get a sponsor in the company who can write the application
for you. And you kind of have to allow them to drive the project. There
may be
Saying a serial console is not kernel dependent is inaccurate and
misleading. The part that displays the kernel boot messages is
absolutely kernel dependent. I think you mean that you can get messages
even earlier by, as a seperate step, configuring a serial console in
the boot loader, right?
Sure, let synthesizers handle ASCII text, but give synthesizers the
textual pronunciation of Unicode characters, such as smiling face.
--
Sent from Discordia using Gnus for Emacs.
Email: r.d.t.pra...@gmail.com
Long days and pleasant nights!
Linux for blind general discussion
I would argue that the pronunciation of symbols should most certainly be
handled by the synthesizer rather than any intermediate layer. Letting
the intermediate layers handle symbol pronunciation will only cause lots
of problems similar to the "tiflda" problem we have in Speakup to this
day.
As of four years ago the Carrol Center was teaching only windows. I
know this as a Friend came in as did many others from different
countries. The goal was to learn what to teach blind folks in the
country they came from. Am I correct in thinking that Carrol center is
all funded from Washington
Hmm. Facebook groups? Perhaps? I could handle that, if it please ya.
Linux for the blind. Grant stuff, though, I’ll probably have to
leave for those who know about petitioning and such. However,
NVDA got plenty of grant money from Mozilla and Adobe, so we
could
I agree with you, but when you say schools, you mean the government.
They provide the majority of funding schools use for that sort of thing.
I did not think of a grant writer. That sounds like a good place to
start.
--Kelly Prescott
On Thu, 27 Apr 2017, Linux for blind general discussion
Tony Baechler here.
Your comments again emphasize the need for a nonprofit organization. I
wouldn't worry too much about the money. Funding will happen once the word
gets out. Oh, it takes time and it won't be immediate, but it can and will
happen. What we need is a grant writer. The
Oh wow thanks for the link to the SBL source! I wasn't aware it still
existed anywhere other than old OpenSUSE and Knoppix. Hopefully I can
get this working on Arch and possibly Fedora as well. If it works, there
should be no objections on technical grounds for getting it packaged for
many
I clearly recall stating that the serial console is *not* kernel
dependent. I clearly stated that I can get *boot loader* messages using
my computer's serial console, which are printed to the output device
long before the kernel starts. If my kernel fails to start for any
reason, I know it,
But, again, Kyle, the serial console is also kernel dependent. You're
simply depending on a different set of developers. You could switch to a
user space screen reader once the host is done booting just as you
switch to a getty once the boot is done.
-- John Heim
On 04/26/2017 04:52 PM, Linux
Eric Oyen here…
looks like some good points all around on this posting. For the most part, a
kernel level speech interface can be a good thing, except when it isn't. What I
wouldn't mind seeing is the addition of a speak up type module for EFI. The
reason for this as that I might need to be
Tony,
If you found bash scripts, rather than sbl, you probably found the
Adrienne[spelling] menu system. SBL is the screen reader that should be
running as a daemon before the menu system starts, although I can't say
I'm well versed on the subject, as I found the Adrienne menu system to
be
Tony and all,
I myself am completely opposed to a screen reader being locked into a
kernel, and have been for many years, for very good, technical,
non-political reasons. Text mode is exactly this: text mode. The layout
of the entire screen is available as plain text and some other character
#+OPTIONS: latex:t toc:nil H:3
So, if Debian is all we have, pretty much, who cares about
accessibility, what is there for those who want a clean, but
up-to-date system other than Arch? As a user, of Emacs with
Emacspeak and Voxin mostly, I find Arch stable enough to
Addendum to my previous post:
Regarding boot messages, even back when I could see, assuming
whichever distro I was using didn't cover them with a splash screen, I
can't say they were ever all that useful when things went wrong to the
point of things not booting. In most cases, I usually used such
Tony Baechler here.
I totally agree about the blind community. You forgot the third group. We
have the ACB, NFB and those who don't care and won't join either. I'm seeing
more of those. However, no, F12 isn't the standard. Window-Eyes uses
Insert+T. Should Insert+T read the title as with NVDA
Tony Baechler here.
Thanks for the Fenrir link. I'll go get it. I've looked at the SBL source,
or what I could find of it. No, it doesn't need a kernel module. The problem
is it's tied into Knoppix, so I think would be difficult to package. It's
mostly bash scripts which I guess are a talking
Tony Baechler here.
Kyle, first, from a different post, I have no feelings about Arch. I don't
know if they care about accessibility or not. I would think if they do, they
would make Talking Arch official, but there are probably technical issues.
Why they can't do like Slackware, Debian and
Tony Baechler here.
You make my point, exactly! All of the BSDs, Windows, and who knows what
else ship Gnome. Orca is part of Gnome. Therefore, they all ship Orca if
they ship a complete Gnome environment. That doesn't mean they care about
accessibility. That means they ship Orca because it's
Nobody said anything about all blind people agreeing about anything. The
issue is whether we are hurting ourselves with our inability to
cooperate. Even if you don't believe that the infighting in the blind
community is worse than it is in the general public, that's no reason to
just accept
I agree with this post. Sure it would be great if all blind people
agreed with one another, especially when it came to issues concerning
the blind, but I think this is unrealistic. In this sense, the blind are
no different then the general public, and as nice as it would be if the
blind were
I just don't understand how you can fail to see how judgemental you are
being. My hardware speech synth is not obsolete as proven by the very
fact that I use it all the time and the speakup code is being actively
developed as we speak. It's just a different choice I made. I have very
good
I know next to nothing about the NFB and ACB, and I could've sworn
there was an AFB in there somewhere, but unless one organization is
hoarding resources for their own members, refuse to let members be
part of other organizations, or abuse IP law to the point only those
willing to jump through
But the world doesn't have a problem with too much unity. You say,
"unity behind the wrong philosophy very well might give us a worse
world, not a better one." But it's not as if that has been a huge
problem for the blind community, developers of accessibility software,
or the combination of
Is there a set of instructions for doing this?
Al
On 04/24/2017 04:46 PM, Linux for blind general discussion wrote:
This is Luke Yelavich, reply below.
On Mon, Apr 24, 2017 at 09:23:19PM AEST, Linux for blind general discussion
wrote:
Screen readers cannot give boot messages anyways, with
All of this criticicism of Speakup, however valid, avoids the fact that
Speakup has nonetheless been available as a staging module with Debian,
for example, as well as Arch, if I'm not mistaken. It is not available
with Fedora. It then became unavailable even from rpmfusion, and I've
not
That's what I've thought. Also, it seems to me as a matter of equal
access that we should have speech and Braille access as close to the
time as possible when sighted folks can see action on their monitors.
If that requires that our speech/Braille output software be in kernel
space, then it
So you are asserting that users would prefer insert+t to F12? Suppose I
were to provide you with evidence that that is untrue. Would that make
any difference to you? Suppose I were to show you that the majority of
users would prefer there to be a standard set of shortcut keys for the
most
Sometimes that slogan about the perfect being the enemy of the good is
useful, sometimes not. In this instance, I'm inclined to think it's not.
Sighted people as a group disagree on a great many things, and vary a
great deal on the willingness to compromise. It's the same with blind
folks,
I see this a lot too.
I happen to be a member of both the ACB and NFB. Yeah, I know, its rare. I use
both orgs as tools to get what I need done.
Now, what I have found among the blind is that a lot of us are very anal
retentive. It may have a lot to do with the fact that we have to be super
Actually a screen reader using f12 to tell the time does make it a standard
probably unique to that screen reader. Standards are loved by many because
there are so many standards from which to choose. There is a huge difference
between a standard and the standard; those multiple standards
I don't think nerds or blind nerds are unique in this sense at all. In
fact, since the blind suffer so much from prejudice, I'm always
surprised by how prejudiced the blind themselves can be about the blind,
although I shouldn't be, since I think that's just human nature. Anyone
who thinks the
It's not that I don't care about new users coming to Linux from Windows.
It's more that I care about the new computer user who's starting with
Linux. Why shouldn't they have the most intuitive set of key bindings
possible? What about those that have been using Orca all along? How
about those
I don't think it's fair to say that Windows users just went right along
with giving up the start menu. There was a major out cry and MS
reintroduced the start menu.
--
Christopher (CJ)
chaltain at Gmail
On 24/04/17 19:06, Linux for blind general discussion wrote:
Windows users have had to
Dan Rossi here.
WOW, what a thread. The vehemence surrounding a silly little thing like
F-12 verses insert-t is amazing. In JAWS, insert-t is for the title of
the window I am in. Title, T. There are only 26 letters in the alphabet
and a few modifier keys, so some things are going to get
The serial terminal is indeed built into the kernel, but the difference
is that it isn't stuck in staging with no hope of ever getting out into
the main tree. In fact, the serial terminal has been a part of the base
kernel for many many years. And what in the world is wrong with using a
cable
Windows users have had to learn and relearn basic functionality of their
own precious OS for years now, as Microsoft itself periodically changes
the way things work just for the sake of making a change. I see nothing
new here, except that the benefits of Linux far outweigh any changes in
key
F12 is completely arbitrary and has no meaning outside of stupid Jaws.
And to answer the question of people who speak different languages using
different mnemonics, this is completely fair, but should be addressed by
maybe having different default mnemonics for different languages, not by
This is Luke Yelavich, reply below.
On Mon, Apr 24, 2017 at 09:23:19PM AEST, Linux for blind general discussion
wrote:
> Screen readers cannot give boot messages anyways, with software speech.
Actually, with things set up correctly to allow the screen reader to come up
as early as possible,
Regardless of the method used, I'm not sure boot messages are all that
important to the average user or even the average power user. The
functionality might be useful to some sysadmins, but I'm not convinced
the convenience kernel integration provides to these few is worth the
extra hassle
Well, the serial terminal is also built into the kernel. you're just
depending a a different set of maintainers. A serial terminal is no
where near as usable as speakup is at boot time. You talk about a serial
terminal needing only another machine like an RP but that's not entirely
true. You
Okay, lets just make this perfectly clear. You don't care that a new
user trying to switch from Windows to linux would be confused by having
to learn all new shortcut keys, right? You are saying that in your
opinion insert+t just makes so much more sense than F12 that it is more
important than
I wouldn't mind moving to a new list.
--
Sent from Discordia using Gnus for Emacs.
Email: r.d.t.pra...@gmail.com
Long days and pleasant nights!
Linux for blind general discussion writes:
> It's not true that Red Hat did what they could do as quickly as they
> could do
I use Emacs, with Boodler, as a Talking Clock. There is a sound scape
that speaks time every 15 minutes.
--
Sent from Discordia using Gnus for Emacs.
Email: r.d.t.pra...@gmail.com
Long days and pleasant nights!
Linux for blind general discussion writes:
> For
My God! No one is /making/ you use it! It, is, a, choice, damn it! Just
because one person wants it one way doesn’t mean it’s how it
/has/ to be!
--
Sent from Discordia using Gnus for Emacs.
Email: r.d.t.pra...@gmail.com
Long days and pleasant nights!
Linux for blind general
Screen readers cannot give boot messages anyways, with software speech.
--
Sent from Discordia using Gnus for Emacs.
Email: r.d.t.pra...@gmail.com
Long days and pleasant nights!
Linux for blind general discussion writes:
> Boot messages can be sent out via a serial
For reading, if I can't read it in Firefox, I usually convert it to
plain text and read it in nano.
Gmail's view as HTML function works for most attached documents, and
the following command line utilities are all useful:
catdoc for .doc and I believe .rtf(and I believe catdoc also includes
F12 isn't stupid. It's a perfectly reasonable choice. Someone else might
argue that orca+t is stupid because to them, t means table. Or tab. Or
maybe they speak swahili and their word for time starts with a q or an x.
-- John Heim
On 04/24/2017 05:49 AM, Linux for blind general discussion
Boot messages can be sent out via a serial console, without the help of
a screen reader locked into the kernel, where it is harder to fix bugs
and harder to keep it updated, as the whole kernel has to be updated
along with it. I know the serial console works, as I have a uart header
on my
No. F12 does not mean time in any language. F12 may be a Jaws thing, and
it may even be an NVDA thing, but it's far from a standard. Last I
checked, time wasn't spelled with an f anything. Therefore, f12 telling
me the time is stupid and illogical at best. I want my t damn it. T for
time, t
Email me off list at j...@iavit.org. Our server is more of a meeting
place than a development environment. We can save you the cost of
hosting and a domain name. We can give you space to host your downloads,
the email list, plus a blog or a wiki for documentation.
On 04/24/2017 05:34 AM,
It's not true that Red Hat did what they could do as quickly as they
could do it. The spam problem went on for months before some of us
finally started to make an issue of it. Even then it tooke a couple of
weeks before anything was done. Secondly, they should have removed the
spammer from the
The reason it is important for the screen reader to not be in user space
is that you might need it to gett boot messages.
-- John Heim
On 04/24/2017 07:40 AM, Linux for blind general discussion wrote:
Tony,
I said absolutely nothing of Red Hat hosting Orca. I said they ship it
with the
gt;
> -Original Message-
> From: blinux-list-boun...@redhat.com
> [mailto:blinux-list-boun...@redhat.com] On Behalf Of Linux for blind
> general discussion
> Sent: Sunday, April 23, 2017 8:47 PM
> To: blinux-list@redhat.com
> Subject: Re: Sonar GNU/Linux merges with Vinux
&g
reflect those of the
Library of Congress, NLS.
-Original Message-
From: blinux-list-boun...@redhat.com [mailto:blinux-list-boun...@redhat.com] On
Behalf Of Linux for blind general discussion
Sent: Sunday, April 23, 2017 8:47 PM
To: blinux-list@redhat.com
Subject: Re: Sonar GNU/Linux merges
I haven't ever found the SBL source code, although I did want to try to
package it for Arch at one point. That said, I'm not sure whether or not
anyone is even still maintaining it now, and not having seen the source
or the package dependencies, I'm not entirely sure it doesn't rely on a
I haven't tried Fenrir and wouldn't know where to start with trying
it, but I've tried speakup both on x86 Debian(both 32- and 64-bit) and
on a Raspberry Pi(via piespeakup) and except for not needing screen
review to play classic infocom games under Frotz, found it vastly
inferior to SBL, the text
Tony,
I said absolutely nothing of Red Hat hosting Orca. I said they ship it
with the distribution, which they are not at all obligated to do, as
proven by the fact that Linux Mint didn't come with Orca in the live
environment for a very long time. As for Speakup, it has never been
fully
Le 24/04/2017 à 02:29, Linux for blind general discussion a écrit :
> *Does quick test* At least on my system, using ctrl+left square
> bracket to go back a page in Firefox puts focus on the link that took
> me forward, though I'll admit behavior isn't always consistent.
>
> As for key
Le 24/04/2017 à 02:24, Linux for blind general discussion a écrit :
> Orca only *seems* slightly slower than NVDA to some because it works
> directly with the browser. I'll take that any day over a page taking
> twice as long to load because it first has to be loaded into the
> browser, and then
Kelly Prescott here.
This is only my $0.02 worth as a developer, but here I go.
I can program, in several languages in fact.
Here is the problem.
Most people that write for Linux and free software in general do it on
there own time.
Yes, there are a small group of highly paid developers that
I'm Tony Baechler. Umm, Kyle, no. Anyone can host any project without caring
about accessibility. As you surely know, anyone can dump files on a public
server and anyone can host a git repo. No, RH doesn't host Orca. The Gnome
Foundation (gnome.org) hosts Orca. Their server is in Sweden. Joanie
Tony,
First of all, as far as I've been able to deduce over the years,
everyone *cares* about accessibility. The problem is that no one *knows
how* to best address any issues with it. Red Hat certainly does care. If
they didn't care, they wouldn't ship Orca, or they wouldn't implement
the
No. Long-time Jaws and NVDA users can figure out that t stands for time
and use that instead, just like all the rest of us who used something
else before we got to Orca. And if they really want something as stupid
as f12, they can configure it in Orca's keybindings tab.
~Kyle
I'm Tony Baechler. See below.
On 4/23/2017 3:49 PM, Linux for blind general discussion wrote:
Granted, I could be wrong and the only reason there isn't a .deb for
NVDA or an install.exe for Orca is because no one's tried compiling
them outside their native environments, but if it was that
I'm Tony Baechler. See below.
On 4/23/2017 3:11 PM, Linux for blind general discussion wrote:
Absolutely. For a number of years now, I've thought it would be nice to
have an umbrella foundation to help accessibility related projects. I
don't know where it would get its funding, and I don't
I'm Tony Baechler. Probably others will comment, but having looked at the
NVDA git repo and following the Orca list, I would like to clarify some things.
On 4/23/2017 2:54 PM, Linux for blind general discussion wrote:
And even if the NV association had any interest in branching out, I
suspect
My name is Tony Baechler. Since names aren't showing up, it makes it very
hard to track discussions. If no one objects, I think I'll create a new list
very soon. I've looked at groups.io and they look good enough. Besides, as I
stated before, Red Hat has shown many times that they don't care
I'm not saying you would want it, but long-time NVDA and Jaws users would.
--
Sent from Discordia using Gnus for Emacs.
Email: r.d.t.pra...@gmail.com
Long days and pleasant nights!
Linux for blind general discussion writes:
> Why do I want insert+f12 to tell me the time
Why do I want insert+f12 to tell me the time when insert+t, (t for
time), can do that for me just fine and more intuitively? How is f12
better than t, which stands for time? No, that's simply not a logical
keybinding, and I don't want it in Orca. BTDubs, holding in the insert
Orca key and
Well, I'd love for this resource to be used. I would if I knew anything
about how all that works. There was a guy on the Orca list, the
creator of Liblouis, which asked if anything needed to be done
with Orca development. We told him Braille support, but so far,
Okay, I agree with that. But let's look at Brailleback for a good
example of why different isn’t always better.
With note takers, braille displays, all that, they all use the
same set of logical commands for editing text, whereas braille
back has these awkward, hard
The windows version thing is mostly smoke and mirrors.
Until Windows 10, the version stayed at 6.x for a long time...
Even in 10, there are not many changes, they are mostly cosmetic.
NVDA works surprisingly well in Windows.
The thing is, I need 3 different screen readers: JAWS, NVDA, and Window
Orca only *seems* slightly slower than NVDA to some because it works
directly with the browser. I'll take that any day over a page taking
twice as long to load because it first has to be loaded into the
browser, and then it has to be loaded yet again into NVDA's virtual
buffer. And forget
Kyle, you are showing exactly the attitude that drives so many normal
users crazy. Now, I defended the idea of developers creating a distro
just for the blind. A lot of people don't even approve of that. But you
could at least recognize that a lot of people would benefit if screen
reader
Le 24/04/2017 à 01:07, Linux for blind general discussion a écrit :
> # A couple of years ago, I suggested the nvda and the orca developers
> # create a inter-operability panel to make the 2 screen readers as similar
> # as possible. I still think it is a good idea.
> Some things are already
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