Re: Retro Hugos

2004-02-26 Thread G. D. Akin
Tom Beck wrote: > Well, let's see...Stand On Zanzibar, Ringworld, Startide Rising, > Hyperion, Dune, The Left Hand of Darkness, The Moon is a Harsh > Mistress, The Man in the High Castle, Neuromancer, Starship Troopers, > A Canticle for Leibowitz, Lord of Light...I think those could be sai

Re: Retro Hugos

2004-02-26 Thread Tom Beck
You're right of course, a Retro Hugo doesn't really serve a purpose. But it's fun! :) Oh and I'm not positive but I'm pretty sure _Farmer in the Sky_ is still being published. ;) It is: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0345324382/ qid=1077864477/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/103-5103243-0

Re: Call for Access experience/help

2004-02-26 Thread The Fool
> From: Kevin Tarr <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Any users? This program is outside my experience. I can work with Access, > but it never does exactly what I want. I can't use any other programs, > unless there is something simple I'm missing. > > I'm going to call them objects, hope this will be eas

Great Britain

2004-02-26 Thread William T Goodall
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/wtwtgod/3518375.stm "A survey of people's religious beliefs in 10 countries suggests the UK is among the most secular nations in the world. Ten thousand people were questioned in the poll by research company ICM for the BBC programme What The World Thinks

Re: Blue Monday (was: Re: Constitutional Amendment Question)

2004-02-26 Thread Julia Thompson
Michael Harney wrote: > Don't ask about the subject line, I'm just a New Order fan and the name and > lyrics popped into my head when I was trying to think up an appropriate > subject line. Reminded me a bit of _Breakfast of Champions_. And also, of my own week. I'll spare folks most of the det

Re: Thoughts on gay marriage?

2004-02-26 Thread iaamoac
A great quote from ABC's The Note blog on the Constitutional Amendment: "Whatever one thinks about the merits of such an amendment, we are amazed (OK: not really) at the degree to which the [mainstream press] casts the President's decision in purely political terms -- rather than a response to

Re: Thoughts on gay marriage?

2004-02-26 Thread Richard Baker
JDG said: > "Whatever one thinks about the merits of such an amendment, we are > amazed (OK: not really) at the degree to which the [mainstream press] > casts the President's decision in purely political terms -- rather > than a response to the tens of millions of real Americans who are > fund

Re: A few new words of which this list is in need

2004-02-26 Thread iaamoac
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Erik Reuter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Awww, pooor Jan. Hurt his itty bitty ego when he couldn't > support absurdities with a wittle evidence wevidence. Aww. IAAMOAC to you too Mac. JDG ___ http://www.mccmedia.co

Re: A few new words of which this list is in need

2004-02-26 Thread Erik Reuter
On Thu, Feb 26, 2004 at 02:04:49PM -, iaamoac wrote: > > IAAMOAC to you too Mac. I'm certainly not a member of YOUR civilization. Now, if I started a constitutional amendment to stop you from marrying certain women that I don't approve of, then maybe I would be in your ballpark... -- Erik

Re: Br!n: LotR and Conservatives

2004-02-26 Thread Matt Grimaldi
"John D. Giorgis" wrote: > > I was not providing a list of policies that you would agree with. > Rather, David Brin made the following pretty baseless assertion: > > >That the current GOP is dominated by > >kleptocratic frat boys with NO other agenda but > >stealing 4 TRILLION DOLLARS from our g

RE: Gibson, The Passion, and Holocaust Denial

2004-02-26 Thread Jon Gabriel
From: "The Fool" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "xBrin-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Gibson, The Passion, and Holocaust Denial Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 09:23:19 -0600 In Respect to a Film Only JDG could Love: Would you PLEASE not attack other list members?

Re: Retro Hugos

2004-02-26 Thread Jon Gabriel
From: Tom Beck <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Killer Bs Discussion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: Retro Hugos Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 17:52:27 -0500 Anyway, thoughts . . . Retros good or bad. Two years ago (almost 3 now, dammit) at MilPhil, Robert Silv

Shoot :( (Was: RE: Gibson, The Passion, and Holocaust Denial)

2004-02-26 Thread Jon Gabriel
Sorry. I often 'save as draft' letters before I send them out (especially if they contain content like this one) and then forget they're in that folder. Was going through and deleting them one by one this morning and must have clicked 'Send' instead of 'Delete'. Arrgh. Just goes to show I ca

Re: A few new words of which this list is in need

2004-02-26 Thread iaamoac
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Erik Reuter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Thu, Feb 26, 2004 at 02:04:49PM -, iaamoac wrote: > > > > IAAMOAC to you too Mac. > > I'm certainly not a member of YOUR civilization. Which is, of course, exactly what David Brin meant by that. JDG _

Re: A few new words of which this list is in need

2004-02-26 Thread Erik Reuter
On Thu, Feb 26, 2004 at 04:04:38PM -, iaamoac wrote: > Which is, of course, exactly what David Brin meant by that. I don't think it means what you think it means. It certainly doesn't give you the right to go around forcing your will on others. -- Erik Reuter http://www.erikreuter.net/ _

Pryor: Homosexuality = Necrophilia = Pedophilia

2004-02-26 Thread The Fool
<> Everyone's favorite Bigot Extremist who was just appointed to the Judiciary in a recess appointment that subverts the will of the Senate, had these remarks to say in Lawrence VS Texas: pg. 33-4 " It should be

Re: Thoughts on gay marriage?

2004-02-26 Thread The Fool
> From: Michael Harney <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > It can't be too > bad of an arrangement, because bottlenose dolphins have been arround a lot > longer than our species has. I like to think my DNA strands go all the way back to the Progenitor Molecule. ___

Re: Republicans and the Federal Marriage Ammendment.

2004-02-26 Thread iaamoac
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Jon Gabriel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Good article. This one is from the Weekly Standard: > http://www.crosswalk.com/news/weeklystandard/1231944.html , "The Federal > Marriage Amendment is Hopeless" > > It argues that, by failing, the FMA will have the exact oppos

Re: Republicans and the Federal Marriage Ammendment.

2004-02-26 Thread iaamoac
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Michael Harney" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Sorry JDG, even Republicans don't back the FMA: I am shocked to learn that the Republican Party does not have a unanimous position on a given political issue. Or are you the one who is shocked? Then again, I'm just "runni

Re: Thoughts on gay marriage?

2004-02-26 Thread iaamoac
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Michael Harney" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Suppose that, in an effort to control world overpopulation > Everyone is free to marry anyone they want from the > same sex, but not of the opposite sex. Would you consider > that "equal protection"? How would you feel abou

Re: Thoughts on gay marriage?

2004-02-26 Thread Erik Reuter
On Thu, Feb 26, 2004 at 06:40:05PM -, iaamoac wrote: > A much closer analogy would be a society that had always only > permitted same-sex unions... alas, any such ociety would now no > longer exist. Wrong again. -- Er

Re: A few new words of which this list is in need

2004-02-26 Thread Jan Coffey
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Erik Reuter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Thu, Feb 26, 2004 at 04:04:38PM -, iaamoac wrote: > > > Which is, of course, exactly what David Brin meant by that. > > I don't think it means what you think it means. It certainly doesn't > give you the right to go around

Re: A few new words of which this list is in need

2004-02-26 Thread Erik Reuter
On Thu, Feb 26, 2004 at 07:46:13PM -, Jan Coffey wrote: > How exactly is missrepresentation and bullying any different Erick? I don't usually answer questions with questions, Jane, but this is ridiculous. You honestly don't see the difference between using the force of law (i.e., making a new

Re: A few new words of which this list is in need

2004-02-26 Thread Julia Thompson
Erik Reuter wrote: > > On Thu, Feb 26, 2004 at 04:04:38PM -, iaamoac wrote: > > > Which is, of course, exactly what David Brin meant by that. > > I don't think it means what you think it means. Inconceivable! Julia ___ http://www.mccmedi

Re: Tyranny

2004-02-26 Thread Julia Thompson
Jan Coffey wrote: > > --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], David Hobby <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > I never said that, did I? > > (What gave me more reason to doubt your intellectual credentials > > was how you argued with me about terrorism a few months back. > > You kept using strawmen and ad hominem

Re: Tyranny

2004-02-26 Thread iaamoac
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Julia Thompson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Jan Coffey wrote: > > > > --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], David Hobby <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > I never said that, did I? > > > (What gave me more reason to doubt your intellectual credentials > > > was how you argued with

Re: Thoughts on gay marriage?

2004-02-26 Thread Michael Harney
From: "iaamoac" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Michael Harney" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Suppose that, in an effort to control world overpopulation > > Everyone is free to marry anyone they want from the > > same sex, but not of the opposite sex. Would you consider > > th

Re: Republicans and the Federal Marriage Ammendment.

2004-02-26 Thread Michael Harney
From: "iaamoac" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Michael Harney" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Sorry JDG, even Republicans don't back the FMA: > > I am shocked to learn that the Republican Party does not have a > unanimous position on a given political issue. Or are you the on

Re: Tyranny

2004-02-26 Thread Jan Coffey
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Julia Thompson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Jan Coffey wrote: > > > > --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], David Hobby <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > I never said that, did I? > > > (What gave me more reason to doubt your intellectual credentials > > > was how you argued with

Re: Tyranny

2004-02-26 Thread Jon Gabriel
From: "iaamoac" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Killer Bs Discussion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: Tyranny Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 21:00:32 - --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Julia Thompson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Jan Coffey wrote: > > > > --- In [EMAI

Re: Thoughts on gay marriage?

2004-02-26 Thread Jon Gabriel
From: "Michael Harney" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Killer Bs Discussion" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: Thoughts on gay marriage? Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 14:15:56 -0700 From: "iaamoac" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> It can't be too bad of an arrangement, bec

Re: Thoughts on gay marriage?

2004-02-26 Thread Jon Gabriel
From: "iaamoac" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Killer Bs Discussion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: Thoughts on gay marriage? Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 13:55:17 - A great quote from ABC's The Note blog on the Constitutional Amendment: "Whatever one thin

She's not racist, she's a Democrat

2004-02-26 Thread Kevin Tarr
http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/state/8040153.htm MIAMI - U.S. Rep. Corrine Brown verbally attacked a top Bush administration official during a briefing on the Haiti crisis Wednesday, calling the President's policy on the beleaguered nation "racist" and his representatives "a bunch of

Call for Access experience/help

2004-02-26 Thread Kevin Tarr
Any users? This program is outside my experience. I can work with Access, but it never does exactly what I want. I can't use any other programs, unless there is something simple I'm missing. I'm going to call them objects, hope this will be easy to follow: Object A has two properties: it's name

Re: Thoughts on gay marriage?

2004-02-26 Thread Kevin Tarr
At 05:12 PM 2/26/2004, you wrote: From: "iaamoac" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Killer Bs Discussion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: Thoughts on gay marriage? Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 13:55:17 - A great quote from ABC's The Note blog on the Constitut

Re: A few new words of which this list is in need

2004-02-26 Thread Robert Seeberger
- Original Message - From: "Erik Reuter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Killer Bs Discussion" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2004 2:13 PM Subject: Re: A few new words of which this list is in need > On Thu, Feb 26, 2004 at 07:46:13PM -, Jan Coffey wrote: > > > How exactl

Hooray for Zoidberg!

2004-02-26 Thread Kevin Tarr
I'm not as happy as I was at noon, but feel like sharing. I finally got my raise to the next job classification, 18 months after I was recommended. The fact that I'm doing the same work as someone two levels above me, one now, has been rewarded. I took a big pay cut for this job, I had to start

RE: Thoughts on gay marriage?

2004-02-26 Thread Andrew Paul
> From: iaamoac [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > A great quote from ABC's The Note blog on the Constitutional > Amendment: > > "Whatever one thinks about the merits of such an amendment, we are > amazed (OK: not really) at the degree to which the [mainstream press] > casts the President's decis

RE: Call for Access experience/help

2004-02-26 Thread Andrew Paul
> From: Kevin Tarr [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Any users? This program is outside my experience. I can work > with Access, > but it never does exactly what I want. I can't use any other > programs, > unless there is something simple I'm missing. > > I'm going to call them objects, hope thi

Re: Thoughts on gay marriage?

2004-02-26 Thread Michael Harney
From: "Jon Gabriel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >From: "Michael Harney" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >To: "Killer Bs Discussion" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >Subject: Re: Thoughts on gay marriage? > >Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 14:15:56 -0700 > > > > > >From: "iaamo

RE: Call for Access experience/help

2004-02-26 Thread Kevin Tarr
At 07:57 PM 2/26/2004, you wrote: > From: Kevin Tarr [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Any users? This program is outside my experience. I can work > with Access, > but it never does exactly what I want. I can't use any other > programs, > unless there is something simple I'm missing. > > I'm going to

Re: Tyranny

2004-02-26 Thread William T Goodall
On 26 Feb 2004, at 9:00 pm, iaamoac wrote: Then again, if I've said it once, I've said it a thousand times - if you genuinely want to positively change someone's behavior, you contact them off-list. Otherwise you call them out in public, and end up far more likely just putting them on the defensi

Re: Thoughts on gay marriage?

2004-02-26 Thread Ronn!Blankenship
At 02:26 PM 2/24/04, Jan Coffey wrote: Just out of curoiosity Doug, what opinion do you hold on marriages envolving more than one person? I'm not Doug, but I've found that marriages which don't involve more than one person can be rather lonely. -- Ronn! :)

Limbaugh comes down on the right side

2004-02-26 Thread Robert Seeberger
First the background: http://apnews.myway.com/article/20040226/D80V0L480.html The nation's largest radio station chain took shock jock Howard Stern off the air in six markets, saying his sexually explicit show did not meet the company's newly revised programming standards. The move c

Re: Limbaugh comes down on the right side

2004-02-26 Thread Ronn!Blankenship
At 07:52 PM 2/26/04, Robert Seeberger wrote: http://apnews.myway.com/article/20040226/D80V75D81.html "Bubba the Love Sponge" is gone and radio shock Howard Stern is on hiatus from some stations. FWIW, I've never heard of "Bubba the Love Sponge" unt

Re: Tyranny/argument

2004-02-26 Thread David Hobby
iaamoac wrote: ... > > > --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], David Hobby <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > I never said that, did I? > > > > (What gave me more reason to doubt your intellectual credentials > > > > was how you argued with me about terrorism a few months back. > > > > You kept using s

Bible Story for Athiests

2004-02-26 Thread Robert Seeberger
Nine year old Joey was asked by his mother what he had learned at Sunday school. "Well, Mom, our teacher told us how God sent Moses behind enemy lines on a rescue mission to lead the Israelites out of Egypt. When he got to the Red Sea, he had his engineers build a pontoon bridge and all the peopl

Why are Democrats better in bed?

2004-02-26 Thread Robert Seeberger
Why are Democrats better in bed? You've never heard of getting a good piece of elephant, have you? * It was the first day of school and a new student, the son of a Japanese businessman, Toshiba, entered the fourth grade. The teacher (Dr. Fox)

Re: A few new words of which this list is in need

2004-02-26 Thread Jim Sharkey
Jan Coffey wrote: >Oh yes thank you for reminding me, I had almost forgotten all about >you Erick. >Come to mention it I also forot these words: bully, adipose, >corpulent, fleshy, gross, heavy, obese, overblown, overweight, >porcine, portly, pursy, stout, upholstered, weighty, beefy, bulky,

Re: A few new words of which this list is in need

2004-02-26 Thread Jim Sharkey
Julia Thompson wrote: >Inconceivable! You made the classic Internet blunder! The first is never get involved in a flame war on Brin-L, but only slightly less well known is never show off your vocabulary when a bunch of know-it-alls are online! :) Jim Amusing people for fun but no profit since

Re: Why are Democrats better in bed?

2004-02-26 Thread Ronn!Blankenship
At 08:58 PM 2/26/04, Robert Seeberger wrote: Why are Democrats better in bed? You've never heard of getting a good piece of elephant, have you? Whassamatter? Can't imagine what they can do with that trunk? -- Ronn! :) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/

Re: Why are Democrats better in bed?

2004-02-26 Thread Jim Sharkey
Ronn!Blankenship wrote: >Robert Seeberger wrote: >>Why are Democrats better in bed? >>You've never heard of getting a good piece of elephant, have you? >Whassamatter? Can't imagine what they can do with that trunk? You're mistaking an inability to imagine it with a powerful desire to maintain t

Re: Why are Democrats better in bed?

2004-02-26 Thread Robert Seeberger
- Original Message - From: "Ronn!Blankenship" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Killer Bs Discussion" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2004 9:19 PM Subject: Re: Why are Democrats better in bed? > At 08:58 PM 2/26/04, Robert Seeberger wrote: > >Why are Democrats better in bed? > >

Re: Why are Democrats better in bed?

2004-02-26 Thread Kevin Tarr
At 10:19 PM 2/26/2004, you wrote: At 08:58 PM 2/26/04, Robert Seeberger wrote: Why are Democrats better in bed? You've never heard of getting a good piece of elephant, have you? Whassamatter? Can't imagine what they can do with that trunk? -- Ronn! :) Just watch the cake and peanuts. Kevi

Re: Hooray for Zoidberg!

2004-02-26 Thread Doug Pensinger
Kevin wrote: I'm not as happy as I was at noon, but feel like sharing. I finally got my raise to the next job classification, 18 months after I was recommended. The fact that I'm doing the same work as someone two levels above me, one now, has been rewarded. Congrats, Kevin, sounds like you've w

Aargh!

2004-02-26 Thread Ronn!Blankenship
== TOPFIVE.COM'S LITTLE FIVERS -- COMICS http://www.topfive.com/fivers.shtml == February 27, 2004

Re: A few new words of which this list is in need

2004-02-26 Thread Jon Gabriel
From: "Jim Sharkey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: A few new words of which this list is in need Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 22:09:26 -0500 (EST) Julia Thompson wrote: >Inconceivable! You made the classic Internet blunder! The f

Re: A few new words of which this list is in need

2004-02-26 Thread Julia Thompson
Robert Seeberger wrote: > > - Original Message - > From: "Erik Reuter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "Killer Bs Discussion" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2004 2:13 PM > Subject: Re: A few new words of which this list is in need > > > On Thu, Feb 26, 2004 at 07:46:13PM -00

Re: Thoughts on gay marriage?

2004-02-26 Thread Julia Thompson
"Ronn!Blankenship" wrote: > > At 02:26 PM 2/24/04, Jan Coffey wrote: > > >Just out of curoiosity Doug, what opinion do you hold on marriages > >envolving more than one person? > > I'm not Doug, but I've found that marriages which don't involve more than > one person can be rather lonely. :) I

Re: A few new words of which this list is in need

2004-02-26 Thread Julia Thompson
Jim Sharkey wrote: > However, while I enjoy unpacking my adjectives as much, if not more, > than the next guy, I have to say, Jan, that falling back on fat > jokes is not the best way to gain the sympathy of, well, anybody with > two synapses capable firing in concert. Hm. Anyone who's been to a

Re: Why are Democrats better in bed?

2004-02-26 Thread Julia Thompson
"Ronn!Blankenship" wrote: > > At 08:58 PM 2/26/04, Robert Seeberger wrote: > >Why are Democrats better in bed? > > > >You've never heard of getting a good piece of elephant, have > >you? > > Whassamatter? Can't imagine what they can do with that trunk? Yes, I can. But I didn't want to. :P

Re: A few new words of which this list is in need

2004-02-26 Thread Bryon Daly
From: Julia Thompson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Robert Seeberger wrote: > > xponent > All Your Soap Are Ours Maru > rob All your soap are belong to us? Somebody set up us the bath. Move Zest for great justice! _ Get a FREE online computer v

Re: A few new words of which this list is in need

2004-02-26 Thread Erik Reuter
Awww, pooor Jan. Hurt his itty bitty ego when he couldn't support absurdities with a wittle evidence wevidence. Aww. -- Erik Reuter http://www.erikreuter.net/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

RE: Tyranny

2004-02-26 Thread ritu
Chad Cooper wrote: > > 2. What other culture allows same sex marriage? I'm > > genuinely curious, not making a rhetorical point. > > As far as I can track down so far, there are no third world > countries that > support gay marriage except for Argentina. Asia has a long > way to go... This

Re: Tyranny

2004-02-26 Thread Jan Coffey
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], David Hobby <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > >"nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection > > > of the laws." > And rich and poor alike are forbidden to sleep under bridges. > So? (Note that I did not claim that the Equal Protection Clause > suppo

Re: Tyranny

2004-02-26 Thread Jan Coffey
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], David Hobby <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Back to my original comment. When I said that the Constitution > was meant to be interpreted, I mean that those who wrote it > obviously intended it to be interpreted. If they had really > wanted to pin the meanings down exactly

Re: Tyranny

2004-02-26 Thread Jan Coffey
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Gautam Mukunda <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > But what civilization is he talking about? It must > > be Western civilization, > > because other civilizations, even today support, and > > make it legally > > possible to participate in other f