Raymond Camden wrote:
> But isn't that how labor exercises control over management?
If you call it Labour, you might as well call it Capital instead of management too ;-)
> It should work like this:
>
> Air Pilots want more money.
> They strike.
> People get mad because they can't fly.
> People e
You would, grumble, grumble...
M
-Original Message-
From: Raymond Camden [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 2004 2:37 PM
To: CF-Community
Subject: RE: Microsoft Fined 613 Million?!
> Ray, somehow I knew you were going to ask that question.
Heh, I'll take t
> Ray, somehow I knew you were going to ask that question.
Heh, I'll take that as a compliment and not as a snipe. ;)
> The answer to your question is: I do. You do. We all do. We
> argue about the answer until we are blue in the face, then
> come up with the best answer possible. Emotional har
Heald, Tim wrote:
> what monopoly is my question? Lindows, Linux, Solaris, OS X? Are these
> not other competing operating systems??
I have done my best to translate the definition. I suggest you use Google to find the referenced EU directive with the formal one if you find the translation insuf
ca's flaws, we do a better job than most in drawing the line.
>
> M
>
> -Original Message-
> From: William H Bowen [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 2004 2:18 PM
> To: CF-Community
> Subject: Re: Microsoft Fined 613 Million?!
>
>
Message-
From: Raymond Camden [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 2004 2:24 PM
To: CF-Community
Subject: RE: Microsoft Fined 613 Million?!
Ok, but who defines emotional harm? If I say you are harming me right
now,
it certainly doesn't mean you are doing anything wrong, it just
> Should pilots be able to stop all air traffic because they
> cannot reach an agreement with a single air carrier? That's
> what happened under Reagan, and he had to stop it (I think twice).
>
> You should really question what you mean by the word 'free'
> when you say free market. It is commo
Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 2004 2:18 PM
To: CF-Community
Subject: Re: Microsoft Fined 613 Million?!
What's more, in general when a particular union strikes in France,
sympathetic unions will stage strikes as well as was the case in June of
last year. When I arrived at Charles De Gaul airport for a
> 'privately owned and operated with consideration for other interests'.
> The later is closer the U.S. meaning.
>
> M
>
> -----Original Message-
> From: Heald, Tim [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 2004 1:40 PM
> To: CF-Community
> Subj
> Moreover, society does not promote innovation, the individual does. The
> individual does it to make for themselves a better situation. Why wasn't
> the Soviet Union at the forefront of technology if it is the society that
> promotes growth?
...
...
I never said society, as a general concept,
ideration for other interests'.
The later is closer the U.S. meaning.
M
-Original Message-
From: Heald, Tim [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 2004 1:40 PM
To: CF-Community
Subject: RE: Microsoft Fined 613 Million?!
Why should they be able to force the pilo
based on the definitions in E.O. 12958.
-Original Message-
From: Raymond Camden [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 2004 11:57 AM
To: CF-Community
Subject: RE: Microsoft Fined 613 Million?!
> It's not just about fulfilling the base needs of Maslow's
> heir
CTED]
Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 2004 11:44 AM
To: CF-Community
Subject: RE: Microsoft Fined 613 Million?!
They can force airline pilots and flight controllers to stay on the job
during a strike, why can't they force a company to keep selling a
product or service?
M
-Original Message
unclassified based on the definitions in E.O. 12958.
-Original Message-
From: Raymond Camden [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 2004 11:36 AM
To: CF-Community
Subject: RE: Microsoft Fined 613 Million?!
> Raymond Camden wrote:
> >> Seriously man. they should say "F
ased on the definitions in E.O. 12958.
-Original Message-
From: Kevin Graeme [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 2004 10:35 AM
To: CF-Community
Subject: Re: Microsoft Fined 613 Million?!
> I am reminded of the court trial of Hank Reardon in Ayn Rand's "Atlas
have these
opinions been approved or sanctioned by these organizations. This e-mail is
unclassified based on the definitions in E.O. 12958.
-Original Message-
From: Angel Stewart [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 2004 10:22 AM
To: CF-Community
Subject: RE: Microsoft Fined
approved or sanctioned by these organizations. This e-mail is
unclassified based on the definitions in E.O. 12958.
-Original Message-
From: Raymond Camden [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 2004 10:11 AM
To: CF-Community
Subject: RE: Microsoft Fined 613 Million?!
> &g
: Wednesday, March 24, 2004 9:55 AM
To: CF-Community
Subject: Re: Microsoft Fined 613 Million?!
brobborb wrote:
>
> But let's say my company makes text editors. Can I sue microsoft to
> not have it come with notepad? Or at least include MY "notepad" with
> it, along wi
Raymond Camden wrote:
>
> And I think that is where you and I disagree.
The only place where I stated my opinion was where I said I would like MS to stop selling to Europe. The rest is just some explanation about how things work.
So am I to understand you don't want Microsoft to abandon Europe?
>
> I think the crux of it is exactly that MS does not yet have
> that total lock on the market. The antitrust laws are being
> applied to ensure that remains the case. It would be kind of
> silly to wait until it was too late, wouldn't it?
>
> The real trick I think is determining when a company
> Kevin, this is a very interesting response. It presents the argument in a
> way I haven't thought of before - or not as clearly. Again, thank you.
That
> being said, I disagee. Not with the statement, but with the application of
> it upon MS. Could we not say that the stagnation of one OS could b
ond Camden [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 2004 11:45 AM
To: CF-Community
Subject: RE: Microsoft Fined 613 Million?!
> Microsoft controls 90% of the desktop market and will
> continue to for some time to come.
>
> Is that really a choice for most people?
Yes.
No. I am saying M$ would never stop selling Windows because they could
be compelled to do so.
M
-Original Message-
From: Raymond Camden [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 2004 11:46 AM
To: CF-Community
Subject: RE: Microsoft Fined 613 Million?!
> They can fo
That's the one.
larry
> -Original Message-
> From: Kevin Graeme [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 2004 12:02 PM
> To: CF-Community
> Subject: Re: Erroneous Caesar Quote WAS: Microsoft Fined 613 Million?!
>
>
> Patriotism is the virtue
Patriotism is the virtue of the vicious
-Oscar Wilde
To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are
to stand by the president, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and
servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public. (1918)
-Theodore Roosevelt
The heigh
> It's not just about fulfilling the base needs of Maslow's
> heirarchy though.
> Those needs fulfill an individual. For a society to prosper
> it must continue to grow. Stagnation equals death. Society is
> dependent on innovation to grow and thus survive.
>
> A single company having a lock on
ous Caesar Quote WAS: Microsoft Fined 613 Million?!
>
>
> Oh..okies.
> ^_^
>
> -Gel
> ""Beware the leader who bangs the drums of war in order to
> whip the citizenry into a patriotic fervor, for patriotism is
> indeed a double-edged sword. It both emboldens the
> And I think that is where you and I disagree. What exactly is dependancy?
I
> _really_ need food (although I could do with less ;) but I don't really
need
> cable. I don't _need_ Windows. Yes I'm a heck of a lot quicker w/ Windows
> than Linux, but I don't need it.
It's not just about fulfilling
> They can force airline pilots and flight controllers to stay
> on the job during a strike, why can't they force a company to
> keep selling a product or service?
Good point - but at the same time, the government can do almost anything. ;)
So are you saying that if MS did decide to stop sellin
> Microsoft controls 90% of the desktop market and will
> continue to for some time to come.
>
> Is that really a choice for most people?
Yes. Just because it is EASIER to buy Windows does not mean you are
_prevented_ from buying RedHat. No one said Linux was easy, but if you don't
like it you
Subject: RE: Microsoft Fined 613 Million?!
> Now, I do not believe a centralized consolidation of resources (a
> monopoly) is compatible with capitalism or democracy. In
> fact, I think it is the opposite of a democratic state or
> republic - the people's ability to make de
unity
Subject: RE: Microsoft Fined 613 Million?!
> Raymond Camden wrote:
> >> Seriously man. they should say "Fie, don't like it. We
> just won't
> >> sell our products in Europe now." That would last a freaking week.
> >
> > Amen. They s
Fined 613 Million?!
> Now, I do not believe a centralized consolidation of resources (a
> monopoly) is compatible with capitalism or democracy. In
> fact, I think it is the opposite of a democratic state or
> republic - the people's ability to make decisions about the
> cours
> Raymond Camden wrote:
> >> Seriously man. they should say "Fie, don't like it. We
> just won't
> >> sell our products in Europe now." That would last a freaking week.
> >
> > Amen. They should honor their service contracts of course,
> but outside
> > of that simply stop selling to Europe.
Raymond Camden wrote:
>> Seriously man. they should say "Fie, don't like it. We just
>> won't sell our products in Europe now." That would last a
>> freaking week.
>
> Amen. They should honor their service contracts of course, but outside of
> that simply stop selling to Europe.
I would like
> Now, I do not believe a centralized consolidation of resources (a
> monopoly) is compatible with capitalism or democracy. In
> fact, I think it is the opposite of a democratic state or
> republic - the people's ability to make decisions about the
> course of their nation is dependent on their
-
From: Raymond Camden [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 2004 10:38 AM
To: CF-Community
Subject: RE: Microsoft Fined 613 Million?!
> There would be nothing wrong with that were it not for the
> fact Microsoft has been caught using it's monopoly to shut
> o
> To: CF-Community
> Subject: RE: Erroneous Caesar Quote WAS: Microsoft Fined 613 Million?!
>
> Oh..okies.
> ^_^
>
> -Gel
> ""Beware the leader who bangs the drums of war in order to whip the
> citizenry into a patriotic fervor, for patriotism is indeed a
> doub
Oh..okies.
^_^
-Gel
""Beware the leader who bangs the drums of war in order to whip the
citizenry into a patriotic fervor, for patriotism is indeed a
double-edged sword. It both emboldens the blood, just as it narrows the
mind. And when the blood boils with hate and the mind has closed, the
lead
> There would be nothing wrong with that were it not for the
> fact Microsoft has been caught using it's monopoly to shut
> other products out of the marketplace. This has nothing to do
> with building a better product, it has to do with business
> practices that make competition impossible. Fo
> That's a non-sequitur.
> It's quite obvious how the public can be damaged by one
> company strongarming others into accepting a wide range of
> products, and denying the public choice and fair competition.
> The realities of business are that if Dell does not play
> ball, it folds as a company
>> -Gel
>> "Beware the leader who bangs the drums of war in order to whip the
>> citizenry into a patriotic fervor, for patriotism is indeed a
>> double-edged sword. It both emboldens the blood, just as it narrows the
>> mind. And when the blood boils with hate and the mind has closed, the
>>
> I am reminded of the court trial of Hank Reardon in Ayn Rand's "Atlas
> Shrugged". When Hank refuses to give any sanction to the court, and they
> basically have to throw away the charges because they know that they need
> him, more than he needs them.
That was a pretty, fictional resolution to
fate of
all other markets.
M
-Original Message-
From: Raymond Camden [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 2004 10:06 AM
To: CF-Community
Subject: RE: Microsoft Fined 613 Million?!
> > But let's say my company makes text editors. Can I sue
> microsoft to
&g
ons that run by default.
M
-Original Message-
From: Heald, Tim [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 2004 9:15 AM
To: CF-Community
Subject: RE: Microsoft Fined 613 Million?!
How are they a monopoly? Linux, Solaris, Sun One, HP, OS X.
Simply because they are more common does
That's a non-sequitur.
It's quite obvious how the public can be damaged by one company
strongarming others into accepting a wide range of products, and denying
the public choice and fair competition.
The realities of business are that if Dell does not play ball, it folds
as a company and goes bankr
Take a read on why Anti-trust law was developed in the first place.
If you don't agree with any antitrust law then that's your perogative,
but it's there and it should be enforced.
The courts have found that microsoft broke those laws, and declared it a
monopoly after due process.
They ar
> > But let's say my company makes text editors. Can I sue
> microsoft to
> > not have it come with notepad? Or at least include MY
> "notepad" with
> > it, along with thousands of others from different companies.
>
> No.
>
> But if Microsoft amends its contract with for instance Dell
> an
brobborb wrote:
>
> But let's say my company makes text editors. Can I sue microsoft to
> not have it come with notepad? Or at least include MY "notepad" with
> it, along with thousands of others from different companies.
No.
But if Microsoft amends its contract with for instance Dell and pr
> If you don't like the fact that you can't buy a Window-less
> machine from Dell, don't buy from Dell. (And I just use that
> as example, maybe Dell does sell Windows-less machines.)
This is actually a good example Ray.. Dell got a huge outcry from people
saying, look we don't want to buy a Del
I agree with the general sentiment expressed so far. What the hell? Why not
let them bundle WMP? It has good qualities and bad and it's certainly not
going to turn us into robots incapable of using other products. Besides, if
they're not sending any of the money from the fine my way, what's the poi
> Does the government have a responsibility to protect the
> public from being attacked from within as well as from
> outside? A trust is exactly that. It's saying "we trust you"
> and what they trust is that the actions of the company will
> not be harmful.
What is so harmful? Someone please
> I think most of what people complain about, in regards to
> business (and note I said _most_, not all), could be solved
> in a free market by simple not purchasing products from the
> company you don't like.
>
Let me respond to my own post so I can expand on this point:
We need to differe
> Yet anther sickening aspect of our country. A public trust?
Does the government have a responsibility to protect the public from being
attacked from within as well as from outside? A trust is exactly that. It's
saying "we trust you" and what they trust is that the actions of the company
will not
> Seriously man. they should say "Fie, don't like it. We just
> won't sell our products in Europe now." That would last a
> freaking week.
Amen. They should honor their service contracts of course, but outside of
that simply stop selling to Europe.
I think I'm on the same side as you. MS di
:-)
Finally, someone else who I can relate with!
> Yet anther sickening aspect of our country. A public trust?
> What did the public have to do with writing those million
> lines of code? Why are they the owners of the products of
> individual men's minds?
[Todays Threads]
[This Message]
: brobborb [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 2004 9:04 AM
To: CF-Community
Subject: Re: Microsoft Fined 613 Million?!
I dont think it is fair either, but they are a monopoly after all, so things
have to be regulated somehow.
But let's say my company makes text editors. Can
ns in E.O. 12958.
-Original Message-
From: Kevin Graeme [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 2004 9:00 AM
To: CF-Community
Subject: Re: Microsoft Fined 613 Million?!
> I am still trying to understand how governments in the US and abroad can
> force Microsoft to sell i
L PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 2004 8:18 AM
To: CF-Community
Subject: Microsoft Fined 613 Million?!
I am still trying to understand how governments in the US and abroad can
force Microsoft to sell its products in certain ways or configurations.
Microsoft should be able to sell its product
> The basic gist as I understand it is that the right to sell
> product is a public trust. It's granted to a business for the
> betterment of society. If that trust is abused and the
> business in question is harming society, then the government
> may take steps to rectify the situation.
I am
ge -
From: Tangorre, Michael
To: CF-Community
Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 2004 7:18 AM
Subject: Microsoft Fined 613 Million?!
I am still trying to understand how governments in the US and abroad can
force Microsoft to sell its products in certain ways or configurations.
M
> I am still trying to understand how governments in the US and abroad can
> force Microsoft to sell its products in certain ways or configurations.
Antitrust law.
>From Encyclopaedia Britannica:
any law restricting business practices considered unfair or monopolistic.
The United States has the l
I am still trying to understand how governments in the US and abroad can
force Microsoft to sell its products in certain ways or configurations.
Microsoft should be able to sell its products in any configurations it can,
and if you don't like some features either don't buy MS or don't use the
featu
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