No, in the law its defined as withholding medical treatment.
larry
On Sun, 20 Mar 2005 23:52:40 -0500, Judith Dinowitz
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> If she's breathing on her own, without aid of respirators, but can't really
> eat or drink without help, then withholding food and drink is defini
> Dana wrote:
> But anyway, the foundation of your argument is the sainthood of
> Michael Schiavo. Once that is questioned, it crumbles.
>
No, the foundation is Mrs. Shiavo herself!
When given the choice, Mrs. Shiavo chose Mr. Shiavo and made no
attempt to extricate herself from that relationsh
If she's breathing on her own, without aid of respirators, but can't really eat
or drink without help, then withholding food and drink is definitely murder,
whether she would have wished to die or not.
Judith
~|
Discover CFTic
you don't make marriage sound like a very good choice :)
But anyway, the foundation of your argument is the sainthood of
Michael Schiavo. Once that is questioned, it crumbles.
Dana
On Sun, 20 Mar 2005 16:39:00 -0600, Gruss Gott <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Judith wrote:
> > I think you're co
> Judith wrote:
> I think you're comparing apples and oranges, Gruss.
You're right. In the case of children, they're not old enough to
rationally decide if they should refuse a blood transfusion. However
in the case of Ms. Shiavo, she, as an adult, choose to be married;
knowingly agreeing to al
yes. For instance, it matters a great deal whether she is actually in a PVS.
Dana
On Sun, 20 Mar 2005 15:11:57 -0500, Judith Dinowitz
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> In the case where that decision would kill the child in question, I would
> definitely overturn the parents' rights. That's murder.
Much depends on the circumstances. Here is a case where fundamentalist
parents were found criminally responsible for trying to heal a 2yo
cancer victim with prayer. The sentence was upheld on appeal.
http://www.courts.state.pa.us/OpPosting/Superior/out/a34019_00.pdf
Dana
On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 22:
In the case where that decision would kill the child in question, I would
definitely overturn the parents' rights. That's murder.
I think you're comparing apples and oranges, Gruss. Denying a child a blood
transfusion, where the alternative is that the child would bleed to death, is
definitely
I am saying that this already does happen. Like it or not.
Dana
On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 22:36:30 -0600, Gruss Gott <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Dana wrote:
> > To approach the question from another direction, I am guardian for two
> > children. In many respects what I say goes when it comes to t
> Dana wrote:
> To approach the question from another direction, I am guardian for two
> children. In many respects what I say goes when it comes to their
> health care.
That's a good point - so how about Christian Scientists? They don't
believe in medial treatment, which I think is ridiculous,
I agree that this is a valid concern. However, this right is not
absolute, nor should it be. The fact that she is married does not
obviate her civil rights, my friend. If we had a signed piece of paper
saying that Micahel speaks for me if need be, we would not be having
this discussion. If she were
> Dana wrote:
> So, issue #1. When does it become a crime to give a woman with brain
> damage something to drink? And most of all, *why*?
>
To me here's the key fact: she's married! So the primary question is,
when a married spouse cannot speak for his/herself who should?
You seem to be arguing
Maybe we *should* define issues. Cause those aren't the ones I see.
First of all, that was not bait. There seems to be some sort of idea
floating around that this woman is being artificially kept alive. This
"feeding tube"? The technical name is gastostomy. As mentioned, my
great-aunt just got one
Frankly, I don't see this as much different than her "personal"
physician, who has seen her an average of three times a year, five to
ten minutes per visit. And who is also not a neurologist.
Dana
On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 12:39:09 -0500, Larry C. Lyons
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Many of the legal d
Many of the legal documents involved are available at findLaw
http://news.findlaw.com/legalnews/lit/schiavo/index.html
Also I wonder did anyone catch Senator Frist's comments. He
is some expert diagnostician. He by his profound medical skills as a
heart surgeon has officially diagnosed Terry Shaiv
> Dana wrote:
> Nor, in my opinion, is she being kept artificially alive at this
> point. My 87-year-old great-aunt just had the very same procedure
> (gastrostomy) and will be sent home to live independently, though due
> to her advanced age we're planning on getting her a housekeeper and
> some v
The Schiavos have filed a federal petition for a writ of habeus
corpus. I just read over the document and I think there are
significant issues of civil rights and bioethics. I hope it is
granted. Since I realize I'm in the minority here on this, I'll hush
now, after saying that those of you who are
http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=592526
This is getting a little rediculous folks
Adam H
On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 17:48:30 -0700, Dana <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I think we are down to insults here. I have not made any statements
> about men in general. Or about doctors in general, for that
I think we are down to insults here. I have not made any statements
about men in general. Or about doctors in general, for that matter,
except that the best ones are usually those that claim to know the
least :)
As a matter of fact I have read most of what is online about this
case. Have you?
All
Well, you definitively have your opinion. I can see it will not change. You
have very strong opinions on the evils of the medical profession, the evils of
men, and the evils of suicide.
She is a poor, healthy woman being killed by her mean, evil, money grubbing
husband. Which I have to say I th
Consider that maybe she doesn't want to die and doesn't have to be the
way she is. We don't know because her husband hasn't bothered to find
out. The issue here is that the lower court is traditionally the
finder of fact, and so you can only appeal on procedural grounds. But
the case is fundamental
Because people with absolutely no standing in the case are sticking their noses
into something that should be OVER AND DONE.
Everything they are doing has a single purpose. Further delay.
The courts have ruled. There is nothing more to argue. The court's have ruled
that it was her wish to go. T
so gee it isn't important that she may in fact not be medically
hopeless? Let's just kill her and get it over with? Why not just give
the parents custody -- that will get it off the news screens too. I am
sorry, I had grave doubts before and I have even more now. I see no
reason to starve this woma
At what point do these last minute hail-mary's get put aside by the court? I
think the time has come and gone.
Jerry Johnson
Web Developer
Dolan Media Company
>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 03/16/05 04:13PM >>>
The point is that the issue is not finding the experts, or experts who
think they can find exp
I'm saying I certainly find no evidence that she *is* nor any evidence
that Michael Schiavo has made any serious attempt to be sure. The
family website says 33 doctors say she is not. I have not seen the
affidavits so I can't evaluate them, but yes, there is definitely a
question in my mind.
Dana.
> Dana wrote:
> The point is that the issue is not finding the experts, or experts who
> think they can find experts.
So are you claiming there's credible medical evidence and/or testimony
that Ms. Shaivo is not a PVS case?
~|
Di
The point is that the issue is not finding the experts, or experts who
think they can find experts. There were 33 affidavits submitted in
early March after all. The issue is the court's willingness to listen
to any of them.
Dana
On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 15:09:10 -0600, Gruss Gott <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Dana wrote:
> um, no. The link you are talking about is to a court document relating
I thought you were posting that link to show that there are doctors
that disagree with the consensus medical opinion - this is not the
case?
~
um, no. The link you are talking about is to a court document relating
to guardian ad litem proceedings as the quoted portion below makes
clear. Bush wanted to appoint Wolfson instead of Michael Schiavo. The
court denied this.
Wolfson is not a medical doctor. The link below describes him as an
exp
> Dana wrote:
> On the contrary they found someone, but the court dismissed him.
>
>From what you submitted it looks like the Professor was attempting to
make a basis for diagnosis on whether she could be taught to swallow.
The court didn't dismiss him, but gave the Shindlers 30 days to prove
t
Oh and while we are talking about the court -- it apparently refused
to allow 33 affidavits from doctors saying that she should be
re-evaluated. I can't explain the court's position, but I think it is
wrong and should be reviewed.
Dana
On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 13:24:36 -0600, Dana <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
On the contrary they found someone, but the court dismissed him.
http://www.miami.edu/ethics/schiavo/1-05-04%20Schindlers%20petition%20to%20reappoint%20GAL.htm
On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 13:10:20 -0600, Gruss Gott <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Larry wrote:
> > Given the scruiteny she's been under for
> Larry wrote:
> Given the scruiteny she's been under for the last 10 years or so, I
> don't think that a misdiagnosis would still remain in effect
I believe that's the whole reason behind the stays - the family has
been searching for someone to assert that she's not a PVS case, but
can't. The ad
Given the scruiteny she's been under for the last 10 years or so, I
don't think that a misdiagnosis would still remain in effect,
especially given the political pressures on the physicians to label
her as not PVS from the current state administration.
larry
On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 12:48:55 -0600, Da
::shrug::: I spent the last 20 minutes or so with Google making
sure I still find no evidence of any kind of imaging. There
definitely wasn't any mention of any in the court documents previously
posted here.
This is assuming that you are correct about the prognosis for this
condition. I questi
If according to the reports I've read about the court cases and the
quotes of the testimony from the court appointed physicians, there are
no higher brain functions left. Most of the brain involved in
cognition, perception and voluntary behavior has atrophied. No miracle
cure can help - you cannot
I dunno, Brian, I went through the websites, the court documents and
Larry's journal articles line by line and I don't recall any myriad.
There *might* have been two non-specialists who examined her and a
couple of experts testifying on the usual prognosis for the condition;
but little that actuall
True.
I believe thiediagnosis in this case, though, has been backed up time and
again over the years. The rogue doctors in this instance appear to be the
few who think miracle cures can help this woman, without being able to
provide a provable method for achieving such success.
15 years and a
I don't discount it. I merely don't blindly accept a single doctor's
opinion. Especially one that seems overly categorical in an area known
for misdiagnosis.
Dana
On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 11:35:54 -0600, G <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> They appear miracle only in that we do not understand them.
>
> T
They appear miracle only in that we do not understand them.
The limit of what we do understand, from a medical perspective, is in the
collective hands of our doctors. It only makes sense, then, to entrust
decisions in this area to these people.
To discount a majority of doctors' opinions becaus
a nap if Sam were in charge.
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Dana [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Monday, March 14, 2005 3:36 PM
> To: CF-Community
> Subject: Re: Anybody See Schiavo Turned Down $1M To Give Up Rights?
>
> erm strange as it may seem sam and I agre
s morality is up for sale anyway.
>
> You can't tell me that most things that you believe in couldn't be bought.
>
> Tyler Clendenin
> GSL Solutions
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Dana [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Monday, March 14, 2005 2:28 PM
> To: CF
Sorry but there are :) For this, I am not sure -- depends on whether
the diagnosis is in fact correct -- but "miracle" cures happen quite
often and I have had a couple myself. If you guys think that medecine
understands everything, excuse me, but you're the ones who are naive.
I've yet to meet a do
You don't think fighting it has wasted even more money? What scares me
about this case is the assumption that she somehow is not *worth* it.
Dana
On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 09:50:29 -0500, Adam Haskell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> What would be the harm? The waste of millions and millions of dollars,
>
Go to any daycare these days and you'll see that we haven't changed
much, " ate bugs and threw poop. And liked it" is still quite
popular.
larry
On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 09:35:07 -0600, Gruss Gott <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Uh uh. We *and* monkeys evolved from a common ancestor that probably
> ate
etting Sam's vote. Otherwise I might
> not make through the week.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Jerry Johnson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Monday, March 14, 2005 1:09 PM
> To: CF-Community
> Subject: RE: Anybody See Schiavo Turned Down $1M To Give Up Rights?
&
ECTED]
Sent: Monday, March 14, 2005 2:28 PM
To: CF-Community
Subject: Re: Anybody See Schiavo Turned Down $1M To Give Up Rights?
He can't exactly take money at this point can he? It wold be like admitting
it was his original motivation.
Dana
On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 14:23:38 -0500, Larry C
> Brian wrote:
> And whatexactlydid you presume they "try"?
>
Right! Maybe Mr. Shaivo is the only one looking out for Ms. Shaivo
and her dignity.
For example, let's say your wife accidently knocked her head and fell
in the pool. You find her, call 911, and the paramedics announce
she's
What would be the harm? The waste of millions and millions of dollars,
we're not talking about a comma her folks...we are talking about
something infinitly more complex and drastic...The only travisty about
this case is that on her tombstone it will read 19xx - 2004 and not
19xx-1992 period end of
And whatexactlydid you presume they "try"?
There seems to be this perception that science has all these miracle cures
for people who are in persistent vegetative states, and that this guy has
made some sort of decision to prevent his wife from receiving these miracle
cures.
She's dead.
Yes I can.. it need to be a billion before Dr. Evil comes to mind...
Adam H
On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 14:48:38 -0500, Jerry Johnson
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Can anyone read the phrase "one million dollars" without hearing it as spoken
> by Dr. Evil?
>
> Jerry Johnson
> Web Developer
> Dolan Medi
http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&ned=us&ie=UTF-8&ncl=http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/news/nation/11126223.htm
Quite a few links detailing that he turned down offers.
Adam H
On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 11:21:24 -0600, Gruss Gott <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I only saw this, but I somewhere else I saw that h
The husband never mentioned her wishes until the day after the jury
awarded her over $1 million. That was over a year after her incident.
No treatment of any kind was allowed from that date forward and I'm
not sure what treatment she had before that.
If she dies, he still gets over a million dollar
it hasn't done any good because there hasn't been any. Personally I am
in favor of #1. But that's like saying I think Michael Jackson is
innocent. Doesn't matter. And actually about MJ I am just not sure.
It's my opinion based on what I have read. Consensus medical opinion
doesn't impress me much;
t; not make through the week.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Jerry Johnson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Monday, March 14, 2005 1:09 PM
> To: CF-Community
> Subject: RE: Anybody See Schiavo Turned Down $1M To Give Up Rights?
>
> Does it need to be in that ord
I'm pretty sure this is "it", so I'm on my way with an empty spackle
bucket and some quick dry cement.
Here fishy, fishy, fishy!
On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 13:03:53 -0800, Ken Ketsdever wrote:
> Ok you're all witnesses. And this is in writing. If it comes down to it pull
> the plug and feed me to the
perhaps it also matters that what is there is not Terri. Its a matter
of interpreting her well being. Remember she has a medical condition
that the consensus is that she has irreversable brain damage to such
an extent that what is left is not Ms. Shaivo. Given that should you
just keep the flesh al
> Dana wrote:
> I am not sure about Jeb Bush's motives, but I am sure the parents see
> themselves as fighting for her.
I'm not sure I understand why you think this guy is out to get Ms.
Shaivo. I've heard all of the arguments such as, "he has another
family". If that's the case, all the more re
nybody See Schiavo Turned Down $1M To Give Up Rights?
Does it need to be in that order?
Jerry Johnson
Web Developer
Dolan Media Company
>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 03/14/05 04:03PM >>>
Ok you're all witnesses. And this is in writing. If it comes down to it pull
Does it need to be in that order?
Jerry Johnson
Web Developer
Dolan Media Company
>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 03/14/05 04:03PM >>>
Ok you're all witnesses. And this is in writing. If it comes down to it pull
the plug and feed me to the fish.
Ok you're all witnesses. And this is in writing. If it comes down to it pull
the plug and feed me to the fish.
Ken
-Original Message-
From: Dana [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, March 14, 2005 1:01 PM
To: CF-Community
Subject: Re: Anybody See Schiavo Turned Down $1M To Gi
I am not sure about Jeb Bush's motives, but I am sure the parents see
themselves as fighting for her. As I have said before, the moral of
the story -- and my aunt Toni's story this weekend -- is to be very
sure that people know what you want, more than one person, and
preferably to *write it down.*
If he wants to let her go and her parents don't, take the money and let her
parents deal with. I'm so sick of this. What's next someone getting an
injunction against a woman trying to get an abortion. Grandma wants to be a
Grandma and mother wants an abortion. So grandma go to court to stop he
hmmpph perhaps you are right -- I would have to delve deeper into the
history of this than I want to in order to dispute it, anyway.
Either way though, he is a public figure.
Dana
On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 15:39:05 -0500, Jerry Johnson
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> He certainly has NOT made himself a
He certainly has NOT made himself a public figure.
Her parents, Governor Bush, and the media have made him a public figure.
If everyone had just stayed out of his family's business, we wouldn't even know
his (or her) name.
Jerry Johnson
Web Developer
Dolan Media Company
>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 0
I think that if he were really concerned with her well-being he would
have been much more aggressive in seeking medical treatment for her
rather than making the parents sue him at every step of the way.
Clearly he wants her to die and I realize that many reasonable people
feel that at this point th
That's an awfully presumptuous statement. Is it not possible for two
parties to have completely different ideas of what 'looking out for
Terri' entails? It seems that because his view of what is right for
Terri doesn't line up with your view, he is obviously in it for the
wrong reasons. I te
It would mean more to me, but then I would never be where he is so
that is probably meaningless. I don't know that he is in it for the
money; I just don't think he is trying to look out for Terri. Money is
merely one possible alternate explanation.
Dana
On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 14:41:04 -0500, Jerry J
OMG!
Dr. Evil - The prime antagonist in the first 2 Austin Powers comedies.
Dr. Evil: Here's the plan. We get the war head and hold the world ransom
for...One Million Dollars!
http://austinspad.tripod.com/sounds/ap1/million.wav
(valleygirl is a Californian dialect made popular in the 80s by ev
OMGWHATCAVEAREYOULIVINGIN?
:D
--
##| -Original Message-
##| From: Paul Vernon
##|
##| Never seen the movies
~|
Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's cus
Shoulda Googled
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Dr+Evil&btnG=Google+Search
Never seen the movies
Paul
~|
Discover CFTicket - The leading ColdFusion Help Desk and Trouble
Ticket application
http://www.houseoffusion.c
Can anyone read the phrase "one million dollars" without hearing it as spoken
by Dr. Evil?
Jerry Johnson
Web Developer
Dolan Media Company
>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 03/14/05 02:41PM >>>
But if he, as you and others contend, is just in it for the money, then how
would "discredit" mean more to him th
> Can anyone read the phrase "one million dollars" without hearing it as
spoken by Dr. Evil?
Who's Dr. Evil?
Paul
~|
Save $10 Download ZoneAlarm Security Suite
http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=66
Messa
But if he, as you and others contend, is just in it for the money, then how
would "discredit" mean more to him that one million dollars?
Jerry Johnson
Web Developer
Dolan Media Company
>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 03/14/05 02:45PM >>>
He can't at this point, not without discrediting his "I am just out
He can't at this point, not without discrediting his "I am just out
to see her wishes are carried out" position.
Dana
On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 14:31:47 -0500, Larry C. Lyons
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Still if it were just for the money wouldn't he have taken the ten million?
> larry
>
>
> On Mo
Still if it were just for the money wouldn't he have taken the ten million?
larry
On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 12:28:04 -0700, Dana <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> He can't exactly take money at this point can he? It wold be like
> admitting it was his original motivation.
>
> Dana
>
> On Mon, 14 Mar 2005
He can't exactly take money at this point can he? It wold be like
admitting it was his original motivation.
Dana
On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 14:23:38 -0500, Larry C. Lyons
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> It was in this mornings Washington Post as well. The Post also
> reported that he had previously turned
It was in this mornings Washington Post as well. The Post also
reported that he had previously turned down a Ten million doller
offer.
larry
On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 11:21:24 -0600, Gruss Gott <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I only saw this, but I somewhere else I saw that he turned down $1M to
> give up
I saw it.
My great aunt is in the hospital and it turns out that the nursing
home where she had been for the previous week not only allowed her to
to become dehydrated, causing mental confusion, but had obtained her
signature on a do-not-resussitate order while she was in this state of
confusion.
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