You are so mature.
On 4/18/05, Larry C. Lyons wrote:
> I said there is no reliable inventory for abusers. or at least one you
> have put forward.
>
> As for respect, well frankly my dear I don't give a rat's ass. You've
> already shown what you are. and are appropriately killfiled.
>
~~
ah. It wasn't getting challenged with the same vehemence, so I
wondered. That *is* a court case where beyond a reasonable doubt is
required and put it this way, I hope you are right. I just find it
difficult to construct a conspiracy theory that involves ALL of those
people.
I have to pass on argu
of course ...
Dana
On 4/18/05, Larry C. Lyons <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I said there is no reliable inventory for abusers. or at least one you
> have put forward.
>
> As for respect, well frankly my dear I don't give a rat's ass. You've
> already shown what you are. and are appropriately kil
> Larry wrote:
> I said there is no reliable inventory for abusers. or at least one you
> have put forward.
>
I don't think anyone disagrees that:
1.) Domestic abuse is real and it happens every day.
2.) Mr. Schiavo could be a victim or perpetrator of domestic abuse.
3.) Many studies have been d
I said there is no reliable inventory for abusers. or at least one you
have put forward.
As for respect, well frankly my dear I don't give a rat's ass. You've
already shown what you are. and are appropriately killfiled.
On 4/18/05, Dana <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Whereas I think we should be ve
Whereas I think we should be very careful before we decide that
someone would be better off dead. Bottom line, is she better off dead
or is it just better for *him*?
So when we are talking about a possibility like that and it is being
dismissed as unimportant I find it a little difficult to be
ove
> Dana wrote:
> So. We are left with the fact that my opinion hasn't changed, and
> neither has yours :) I am glad that you don't have any stake in my
I'm challenging you because you said, "he fits the profile." Based on
your responses, what you meant was that he met your subjective opinion
and
I do appreciate the openmindedness . And I agree, though I guess I am
looking at this from the point of view of the wife. But the checklists
are not unreliable :P it's just that when I give the scholarly
version, you say that's not what I am asking, and when the I go the
the general audience checkl
hmm. On a break.
I saw this story last night and hadn't commented as I thought these
were records released by Schiavo's attorney not DCF, whose deadline is
Monday. But I am not sure of this, as I am very swamped this weekend
and in a class that has nothing to do with that deadline to boot. It's
u
There is no evidence supporting a claim of abuse in the Shiavo case,
at least according to Florida's Dept. of Family and Children:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A59521-2005Apr16.html
washingtonpost.com
Reports Cite No Abuse of Schiavo
Florida Welfare Agency Investigated Dozens of C
I haven't retracted it at all. It's an OPINION. Geez. Here I was just
feeling bad, like maybe I had been overly sarcastic :)
Don't have time to read the rest of this right now, in class.
Dana
On 4/17/05, Gruss Gott <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Dana wrote:
> > have said is an opinion and I real
> Dana wrote:
> have said is an opinion and I really don't know why it bothers you so
> much :)
> Can I convince someone of this who really seems to have some sort of
> stake in believing otherwise? Probably not.
>
Apologies - I didn't realize that you'd retracted your statement about
Mr. Schiav
Gruss
Did I not say just yesterday that it would be impossible to say with
scientific certitude whether he was or not? It's an opinion which I
have said is an opinion and I really don't know why it bothers you so
much :)
I also think that Michael Jackson is guilty, John Paul II was a good
man and
> Dana wrote:
> ::scrolling back up the thread:: If you want simple bullets this is
> the site you want.
>
All of this is for people intimately familar with someone. As far as
I know, you're not intimately familar with Mr. Schiavo which would
mean none of these is a sound methodology for you to
said he was mildly of the opinion that
> > > > dying was in her best interest. But there is a lot of consensus out
> > > > there that this si an authoritative site as to testimony and
> > > > timelines.
> > > >
> > > > The document refers to 30 specif
> > The document refers to 30 specific and detailed allegations that they
> > > wanted to investigate, as well as to a number of others that were
> > > closed as unfounded. The 89 number may well have come from testimony
> > > and referred to number of calls or... who know
ey Sam - That article was written by the editor of LifeNews.com - and I'm
> > > just not sure that it's an unbiased, reputable news organization. Are
> > > there
> > > any other sources?
> > >
> > > - Matt Small
> > >
> > >
> I never said I think he's guilty of abuse.
Too much alcohol in my system at the moment to get back into this...
:-P
> And what's with Carrie Fisher?
Yeah, she's a bit of a nut and at 19 looked damned hot in that white dress...
oh and the quote is from an interview I heard a few months back (
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-
> > From: Sam [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2005 2:47 PM
> > To: CF-Community
> > Subject: Re: Gruss - Schiavo question
> >
> > Let me remind you what I said:
> > "
::scrolling back up the thread:: If you want simple bullets this is
the site you want.
This list is remarkably simialr to the one the YWCA gave me to give to
my friend and to the American Bar Association list I posted mmm I
forget if it was yesterday or the day before. These inventories are
meant
> Dana wrote:
> In dysfunctional families, the husband sees himself as the absolute
> individual power within the family system. He strongly believes that
Here's the question I'm NOT asking:
"Given that we know Joe Blow smacks his wife around, what can say
about his life that may have caused him
et tu will? I've posted the damn checklist. Maybe it was in response
to Gruss, but it's out there. I posted a couple of journal articles as
well to show where the profile was coming from. The're chock full of
numbers and references to studies showing where the numbers are coming
from.
There are mor
editor of LifeNews.com - and I'm
> just not sure that it's an unbiased, reputable news organization. Are there
> any other sources?
>
> - Matt Small
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Sam [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2005 2:47 PM
>
Gruss
I don't have to build a profile, it's been done. Please refer to the
links I posted. As for irresponsible, I think that's really rich
coming from someone that says it doesn't matter whether the woman
wanted to die, because she married the dude and should have known
better if he was abusive.
I never said I think he's guilty of abuse.
And what's with Carrie Fisher?
On 4/14/05, William Bowen wrote:
> > Can't you accept the fact that if charges are made there's a
> > possibility he's guilty?
>
> Can't you accept the fact that our legal system is supposed to be
> based on the presumptio
> Can't you accept the fact that if charges are made there's a
> possibility he's guilty?
Can't you accept the fact that our legal system is supposed to be
based on the presumption of INNOCENCE? I mean I know it's tough, what
with trial by media and all, but that is supposed to be the basis of
our
You're saying because he initially spent time trying to cure her he's
incapable of abuse. I'm saying there's a legal investigation to
charges of abuse. But you want to dismiss all 89 charges without even
knowing what they are because he took her to California in the early
90's.
Can't you accept the
> Sam wrote:
> Because the Judge won't allow the info to be released to the public.
> Why are we still talking about this?
>
Because I'm trying to figure out the grounds for Dana's abuse charges
against Mr. Schiavo. I contend that there is not enough evidence
against him to make the charge and n
Because the Judge won't allow the info to be released to the public.
Why are we still talking about this?
On 4/14/05, Gruss Gott wrote:
> > Sam wrote:
> > http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/S/SCHIAVO_DCF_RECORDS?SITE=FLPET&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT
>
> The "allegations of abuse" don't say
> Sam wrote:
> http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/S/SCHIAVO_DCF_RECORDS?SITE=FLPET&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT
The "allegations of abuse" don't say by whom and this paragraph about
sums up the extent of the evidence against Mr. Schiavo:
"The repeated allegations of abuse were based partly on
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/S/SCHIAVO_DCF_RECORDS?SITE=FLPET&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT
On 4/14/05, Matthew Small wrote:
> Hey Sam - That article was written by the editor of LifeNews.com - and I'm
> just not sure that it's an unbiased, reputable news organization. Are there
> any oth
PM
To: CF-Community
Subject: Re: Gruss - Schiavo question
Let me remind you what I said:
"The Department of Children and Families had received 89 allegations of
abuse and neglect in the years leading up to Terri's starvation death."
I would list the abuses but Judge Greer has ordered
> Dana wrote:
> then your argument is specious; there is no way of to determine
> whether he ever witnessed or was the victim of abuse. You asked for
> something where you could calculate this for *yourself.*
>
Let's stick to the point: You said , "oh yeah, he fits the profile."
I'm saying that'
Yeah I know, that confuses me. The only person entitled to a copy is
the person accused of the abuse :) If this is legal, it shouldn't be.
If it's ok to parade an alleged CAT of her brain around talking about
how damaged she supposedly is then I'd think that privacy concerns are
pretty much out the
Let me remind you what I said:
"The Department of Children and Families had received 89 allegations of
abuse and neglect in the years leading up to Terri's starvation death."
I would list the abuses but Judge Greer has ordered them kept secret.
I don't know where the original press release is but
> Sam wrote:
> I already did. Do I need to re-post?
>
I'll trust you :) Let's keep this thread abuser/profile related.
~|
Find out how to get a fax number that sends and receives faxes using your
current email address
http://
yes
On 4/14/05, Sam <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> That's Baltimore and DC only. Actually proves your numbers are wrong.
>
>
> On 4/14/05, Gruss Gott wrote:
> > > jerry wrote:
> > > All I've found so far on the > 50%
> > >
> > > http://www.justicepolicy.org/article.php?id=497
> > >
> > > Baltimore
You should talk :) I'd like to see a citation to that reputable
publication also :)
Dana
On 4/14/05, Gruss Gott <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Sam wrote:
> > So I was right, you did just pull them out of the air.
> > :)
> >
>
> No, I had just read it in a reputable publication (which I'm sure I
you seem happy enough to ignore numbers that don't fit your theory.
Dana
On 4/14/05, Gruss Gott <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Sam wrote:
> > Interesting that you ask me for a cite and not Gruss. Accuse me of
> > pulling numbers out of the air.
> >
>
> The accuracy of the numbers isn't my point
nice answer.
Dana
On 4/14/05, Sam <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On 4/13/05, Gruss Gott wrote:
>
> > Uh, what? I have no idea what your point is.
> My point is you say I've committed a serious offense by accusing him
> of abuse and there's nothing to back it up. Well I'm not accusing him
> the DC
then your argument is specious; there is no way of to determine
whether he ever witnessed or was the victim of abuse. You asked for
something where you could calculate this for *yourself.*
If you get into the testimony of the case, which as far as I can tell
you absolutely are not, you will find t
On 4/14/05, Gruss Gott wrote:
> I already told you, the numbers don't matter to my point. If you
> don't want to comment on the arguments in the thread, start a new
> numbers thread.
I already did. Do I need to re-post?
~|
Disco
> Sam wrote:
> That's Baltimore and DC only. Actually proves your numbers are wrong.
>
I already told you, the numbers don't matter to my point. If you
don't want to comment on the arguments in the thread, start a new
numbers thread.
You claimed 78 instances of abuse. Well where are they from? Provide a
citation or do we just assume that you're pulling them out of your
imagination.
On 4/14/05, Sam <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Interesting that you ask me for a cite and not Gruss. Accuse me of
> pulling numbers out of the air.
>
That's Baltimore and DC only. Actually proves your numbers are wrong.
On 4/14/05, Gruss Gott wrote:
> > jerry wrote:
> > All I've found so far on the > 50%
> >
> > http://www.justicepolicy.org/article.php?id=497
> >
> > Baltimore Sun:
> > Study: 1 in 5 young black city men in jail
> > 52 percent
> Sam wrote:
> So I was right, you did just pull them out of the air.
> :)
>
No, I had just read it in a reputable publication (which I'm sure I
could check the source on) but, as I said, the number is irrelevant to
my point so why chase a red herring. Although I can see that you'd
like too ...
So I was right, you did just pull them out of the air.
:)
On 4/14/05, Gruss Gott wrote:
> > Sam wrote:
> > Interesting that you ask me for a cite and not Gruss. Accuse me of
> > pulling numbers out of the air.
> >
>
> The accuracy of the numbers isn't my point so there's no need to back
> them
> jerry wrote:
> All I've found so far on the > 50%
>
> http://www.justicepolicy.org/article.php?id=497
>
> Baltimore Sun:
> Study: 1 in 5 young black city men in jail
> 52 percent are in prison or on parole or probation
>
Thanks Jerry - suffice it to say, it's a sad fact; not just for
blacks,
> Sam wrote:
> Interesting that you ask me for a cite and not Gruss. Accuse me of
> pulling numbers out of the air.
>
The accuracy of the numbers isn't my point so there's no need to back
them up. What are you comfortable with: 1 in 3, 1 in 5, 1 in 7? It
doesn't matter.
The point is, whatever
Original Message-
From: Vivec [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2005 5:38 PM
To: CF-Community
Subject: Re: Gruss - Schiavo question
I don't think the fact even applies to the United States.It is highly
exaggerated.
And In my view the statement was hardly objective.But Anyw
On 4/13/05, Gruss Gott wrote:
> Uh, what? I have no idea what your point is.
My point is you say I've committed a serious offense by accusing him
of abuse and there's nothing to back it up. Well I'm not accusing him
the DCF is accusing him and it's public information. I'm not saying
he's guilty
Interesting that you ask me for a cite and not Gruss. Accuse me of
pulling numbers out of the air.
Gruss' numbers are made up. I don't know if he made them up but they
are not real yet he won't back them up. Yet he keeps calling them
fact.
What I mentioned was all over the news for the la
citation please. or are you just pulling these out of the air.
On 4/13/05, Sam <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> FACT:
> The Department of Children and Families had received 89 allegations of
> abuse and neglect in the years leading up to Terri's starvation death.
>
> Now let's see you back up your so
> Dana wrote:
> OK, now that I have a moment.
>
I'll take your points one at a time:
1.) Defense of Mrs Schiavo vs. Mr. Schiavo.
As I've explained before, to me it comes down to guardianship. If you
believe in it, and the guardian is ruled competent, then it's their
call. It's not perfect, bu
OK, I am re-reading this now and hmm, it does seem obvious to me that
he does fit a profile. He was young, not all that educated, having
money problems and a manager at McDonald's. I know someone on this
list used to work at a McDonald's and said it wasn't all that bad a
job, but I note that they a
OK, now that I have a moment.
I really don't know where you get the idea that the profile is
subjective. It's remarkably stable from organization to organization
for something that is...here's another journal article.
http://jppr.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/full/8/2/129
I guess what bothers
I think you are asking for two slightly different things. One,
scientific facts, two, a sort of checklist. I already posted one of
the latter, and it was roundly poopooed. Here is another that is
probably pretty similar, and also looks a lot like the pamphlets I got
for a friend that was going thro
> Dana wrote:
> I just re-read this. Are you seriously questioning whether statistics
> on spousal abuse even exist?
>
Nope, just for an abuser profile. A set of facts that would say,
"yup, there is a 92.8% chance he's an abuser." Something we could
calculate for all of us. I'd like to calcula
> Dana wrote:
> please define a fact. One you will accept. Will JAMA do? It seems to
> me that there are plenty of facts and you just don't want to hear
> them.
>
I'm talking about facts that can make a repeatable profile. For
example, "all white guys with moustaches are abusers" or "guys who a
> Sam wrote:
> FACT:
> The Department of Children and Families had received 89 allegations of
> abuse and neglect in the years leading up to Terri's starvation death.
>
> Now let's see you back up your so called facts.
>
Uh, what? I have no idea what your point is. If the allegations
weren't
oh ya, and I mentioned this much much earlier in this discussion -- a
truly astounding number of pregnant women die at the hands of
reluctant fathers
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A10074-2004Dec18.html
Dana
On 4/13/05, Dana <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I just re-read this. Are yo
I just re-read this. Are you seriously questioning whether statistics
on spousal abuse even exist?
http://www.abanet.org/domviol/mrdv/facts.html
http://www.silentwitness.net/states/us_map.htm
http://www.statcan.ca/Daily/English/000725/d000725b.htm
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa39
please define a fact. One you will accept. Will JAMA do? It seems to
me that there are plenty of facts and you just don't want to hear
them.
Dana
On 4/13/05, Gruss Gott <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Sam wrote:
> > I can't find anything that backs your numbers, they seem highly exaggerated.
> > E
FACT:
The Department of Children and Families had received 89 allegations of
abuse and neglect in the years leading up to Terri's starvation death.
Now let's see you back up your so called facts.
On 4/13/05, Gruss Gott wrote:
> > Sam wrote:
> > I can't find anything that backs your numbers, they
> Sam wrote:
> I can't find anything that backs your numbers, they seem highly exaggerated.
> Even if true, it just seems odd to through out a derogatory statement
> like that for no reason.
>
Facts are not derogatory, they're facts. The whole point of the
statement was to point out that if you
I don't think the fact even applies to the United States.It is highly
exaggerated.
And In my view the statement was hardly objective.But Anyways.
On 4/13/05, Gruss Gott <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Thank you - the fact applies only in the United States.
I can't find anything that backs your numbers, they seem highly exaggerated.
Even if true, it just seems odd to through out a derogatory statement
like that for no reason.
I don't think accusing someone of spousal abuse is a serious charge.
Don't you become an accessory if you don't report suspici
HAHAHA!! I'm sneaking through you lousy filters! I did write it!
On 4/13/05, jerry johnson wrote:
> I don't think it was Sam that wrote that, since I got that message.
>
> I think it was Gel.
>
> Which brings up an important further qualifier.
>
> You forgot "in America" (or for Gel "In the Un
> Jerry wrote:
> You forgot "in America" (or for Gel "In the United States")
>
Thank you - the fact applies only in the United States.
~|
Discover CFTicket - The leading ColdFusion Help Desk and Trouble
Ticket application
http
Gruss was also expressing some problems with my position, and asked me
to get back to him. But thank you with the clarification of your
issues as well. I have something to get done here but I'll try to
address your issues too when I answer him.
Dana
On 4/13/05, William Bowen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
age-
From: Gruss Gott [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2005 4:27 PM
To: CF-Community
Subject: Re: Gruss - Schiavo question
> Sam wrote:
> So you're a racist and you support abusers?
>
Interesting interpretation, but no.
As to the racist part, I believe it'
> Sam wrote:
> So you're a racist and you support abusers?
>
Interesting interpretation, but no.
As to the racist part, I believe it's actuarial that 1 in 2 black
males over 18 have been in jail for at least 6 months. Granted the
distribution of those jailed is not geographically neutral. e.g.
*arches eyebrow*
How interesting.
> On 4/13/05, Gruss Gott wrote:
>
> > For example, I think that you
> > can say that if a person is a male black over 18, there's a 50% chance
> > he's been to jail.
~|
Find out how CFTicket c
So you're a racist and you support abusers?
On 4/13/05, Gruss Gott wrote:
> For example, I think that you
> can say that if a person is a male black over 18, there's a 50% chance
> he's been to jail. I doubt you can say any such repeatable, provable
> thing about abusers.
~
ermm... I think that was me that was posing those questions. (I could
be wrong. Or deluded. Or both...)
So, though this was addressed to Gruss, I'm going to take a stab.
> I have a tiny bit of time and wondered - what is it exactly that you
> object to in this discussion of Michael Schiavo?
That
okay, fair enough. I just spent my bit of time on Larry, who isn't
listening anyway, but I'll get back to this tonight probably. Thanks
for the clarification.
Dana
On 4/13/05, Gruss Gott <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Dana wrote:
> > I have a tiny bit of time and wondered - what is it exactly tha
> Dana wrote:
> I have a tiny bit of time and wondered - what is it exactly that you
> object to in this discussion of Michael Schiavo?
1.) Measuring Mr. Schiavo against an utterly subjective abuser
profile. The only type of profile that should be used is a
scientifically derived objective one.
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