Tl;DR: I think that the Mini-DebConf and Sprint process are working
great and have no plans to revisit those procedures.
But we can discuss whether we need to do that.
> "Didier" == Didier 'OdyX' Raboud writes:
>> TL;DR: Do we want BSP organizers to take on the responsibility of
>>
> "Didier" == Didier 'OdyX' Raboud writes:
Didier> Fair enough. But then I wonder what guidelines will be used
Didier> to grant, amend, or deny travel support budgets. Surely not
Didier> "any" budget is fine (or is it)? I tend to think it'd be of
Didier> great support for th
>>>>> "Jonathan" == Jonathan Carter writes:
Jonathan> Hi Sam
Jonathan> On 2019/10/02 23:33, Sam Hartman wrote:
>> Tl;DR: I think that the Mini-DebConf and Sprint process are
>> working great and have no plans to revisit those procedures.
TL; DR: The previous process was not entirely automatic as Martin
implied. I'm fine with a slightly better documented version if the
previous process if that's what we want.
> "Martin" == Martin Michlmayr writes:
Martin> All this talk about who should handle approvals (DPL or
Marti
> "Louis-Philippe" == Louis-Philippe Véronneau writes:
Louis-Philippe> I've taken part in organising sprints, miniconfs,
Louis-Philippe> DebConfs and BSPs before and although I salute the
Louis-Philippe> effort to make the BSP reimbursement process easier
Louis-Philippe> for ev
> "Thomas" == Thomas Goirand writes:
Thomas> Not discussing the issue itself, just (respectfully)
Thomas> commenting on your reply.
Thomas> If there's no valid reason to prefer Github, then it would
Thomas> be very easy to just enforce the use only Salsa. Therefore,
Thoma
> "Enrico" == Enrico Zini writes:
Enrico> On Wed, Oct 09, 2019 at 10:26:39PM +0100, Steve McIntyre wrote:
Enrico> I join other respondents, with a risk of redundancy, with a
Enrico> few notes due to the decision of not having delegated powers
Enrico> and being an undelegated a
TL;DR: I think delegating the community team would be great; if that's
their desire let's work toward that.
> "Martina" == Martina Ferrari writes:
Martina> The main conclusion from that is that yes, some of things
Martina> expressed in the proposal require a delegation, I agree!
TL; DR: People other than the community team can skip this message if
they like. I was talking with Steve about the idea to help sanity check
their process and results by looking at the project's needs so we can
compare those to what the team is offering to provide. This is just
another way to l
Dear Steve:
It sounds like the feedback you've received falls into a couple of
categories:
1) Some minor tweaks, which you have responded to or are seeking more
input on. Below the dashed line I have a couple of tweak/questions of
my own.
2) A concern that the responsibilities you have describe
>>>>> "Holger" == Holger Levsen writes:
Holger> Dear Sam,
Holger> On Mon, Oct 21, 2019 at 07:37:16AM -0400, Sam Hartman wrote:
>> 2) Choose to delegate. From my side the biggest question is
>> likely to be whether y
>>>>> "Holger" == Holger Levsen writes:
Holger> Hi Sam,
Holger> On Mon, Oct 21, 2019 at 09:34:25AM -0400, Sam Hartman wrote:
>> >> 2) Choose to delegate. From my side the biggest question is
Holger> could you please give a rough ra
> "Molly" == Molly de Blanc writes:
Molly> This email does not represent the sentiments of the Community
Molly> Team: I'm a bit concerned about attaching 4 (de-escalation)
Molly> to any team, including the Community Team. Can you get into
Molly> more detail about what that cou
Debian has pledged to donate $5,000.00 to the GNOME Foundation; see [1].
[1]:
https://bits.debian.org/2019/10/debian-donates-support-gnome-patent-defense.html
I asked on debian-private and there was a very strong consensus (no
objections) in favor of this step.
I chose to have the discus
> "Charles" == Charles Plessy writes:
Charles> Le Wed, Nov 13, 2019 at 10:55:41PM +, Martina Ferrari a
Charles> écrit :
>>
>> A short reply in a personal capacity..
Charles> Hi Martina and everybody,
Charles> I have always found replies “in a personal capacity”
> "Sean" == Sean Whitton writes:
>>
>> But right now, I don't think we're focused on Git packaging; at
>> least I know that's not my current focus.
Sean> Can I suggest that we delay this further, to February, say, or
Sean> even to March? I think that it might be a conte
TL;DR: Adding Daniel to the treasurer team so he can go work on an
outstanding issue.
I hereby add Daniel Lange to the treasurer team.
This delegation supplements but does not replace the existing treasurer
team delegation.
I have not talked to the delegation advisory group about this
specificall
Hi. At https://salsa.debian.org/debian-dpl/dpl there's a repository
that has the DD certificates code. I'm having a bit of a layout problem
generating a certificate. In particular, according to a sighted
coworker, when I generate a certificate the signature ends up in the
wrong place. This is
f the Code of Conduct.
Debating whether people get to have preferred pronouns or whether things
like singular they are appropriate in the English we use in Debian is
off-topic for Debian discussion fora.
To the extent that such debates were useful, we've already had them many
times.
Sam Hartman
Debian Project Leader
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>>>>> "Sam" == Sam Hartman writes:
Sam> In adopting the Diversity Statement and the Code of Conduct
Sam> we've committed to welcoming people to the project regardless
Sam> of how they identify the project.
Sigh.
This should have been regardless of how they identify themselves.
> "Marco" == Marco d'Itri writes:
Marco> I also do not believe in a general right (instead
Marco> of about specific issues) of people to not be offended by
Marco> other's behaviour. Is this good enough for Debian?
This offended word keeps coming up from people who are concerned
> "Marco" == Marco d'Itri writes:
Marco> But feel free to ignore that sentence, it does not really
Marco> matter. I would still like to know the answer to my post.
Hi.
This is my personal opinion. I think the question you raise is one
where there is not a crystal clear project cons
viour.
>>
Roberto> If anything, "behaviour" seems to be worse now than it was
Roberto> before.
It's my experience that behavior has improved significantly in Debian
over the last 10-12 years in ways that make the project much easier to
be part of.
Obviously w
> "Iustin" == Iustin Pop writes:
>> It does exist: point one of the Debian code of conduct.
>>
>> It's true that it is not applied equally. As the Code of Conduct
>> states,"a community in which people feel threatened is not a
>> healthy community."
>>
>> In the
> "Steve" == Steve McIntyre <93...@debian.org> writes:
Steve> On Thu, Dec 19, 2019 at 04:38:08PM -0300, Martina Ferrari wrote:
>> A judge in the UK had something to say in respect of these
>> attitudes yesterday:
>>
>> “She will refer to a person by the sex she considered
> "Norbert" == Norbert Preining writes:
Norbert> Dear Pierre-Elliott, (I am not subscribed to d-p anymore)
Norbert> thanks for your email. I would like to ask you for an
Norbert> explanation:
Norbert> On Sun, 22 Dec 2019, Pierre-Elliott Bécue wrote:
>> If you have troubl
> "Pierre-Elliott" == Pierre-Elliott Bécue writes:
Pierre-Elliott> And having seen almost no one telling Geraldo such a
Pierre-Elliott> thing, I find it disturbing to see that much people
I'm writing this to make it clear that Geraldo's message was not okay.
One of the messages Geral
> "gagz" == gagz writes:
gagz> sam:
>> I personally hope that we choose to respect people always--even
>> when they do not respect us in return.
gagz> If you also mean "we choose to always respect people, even
gagz> when they did not respect us before", then take a punch
to live in.
Again, if you're hurting now and something needs attention, reach out,
but preferably not on the list.
Thanks,
Sam Hartman
Debian Project Leader
>>>>> "Martin" == Martin Steigerwald writes:
Martin> Dear Sam.
Martin> Sam Hartman - 31.12.19, 15:37:09 CET:
>> folks, emotions are very high at the moment. It would really help if
>> you could let the discussion die down. If there
t does not belong in Debian either.
Sam Hartman
Debian Project Leader
TL;DR: You are welcome to ask for approval for attending a BSP or
similar; it's only the automatic approvals on hold.
I heard two different people in an email thread claim that you cannot
get reimbursed for attending a BSP.
The only thing that is on hold right now is *automatic approvals*.
Just as
>>>>> "Lucas" == Lucas Nussbaum writes:
Lucas> Hi Sam,
Lucas> On 10/01/20 at 05:35 -0500, Sam Hartman wrote:
>> TL;DR: You are welcome to ask for approval for attending a BSP or
>> similar; it's only the automatic approvals on hold
TL;DR: I think we need a team to focus training and skill sharing even
if we try and drive community wide change.
I try to explore when splitting off meta issues is a good idea.
> "Wouter" == Wouter Verhelst writes:
Wouter> I don't think any of the above is something that can be done b
> "Wouter" == Wouter Verhelst writes:
>> First, in matters of behavior, the meta issues can explicitly create
>> situations where people do not feel welcome.
>> We had a thread in December where people argued that using people's
>> pronouns was optional. As a community we need
Hi.
I'm around this afternoon at the mini-debcamp and will be around FOSDEM
this weekend.
One of my primary reasons for being here is to chat with members of the
project about ways of making things better.
I'd love to chat with you about ideas you have or concerns you have.
I'd love to chat abo
You are of course welcome to download Debian and use it under the
conditions of the licenses for the various components of Debian.
License compliance is a complex field and for any mass-produced
commercial product you're going to need to retain the services of a
professional qualified in that fiel
> "Jerome" == Jerome Charaoui writes:
Jerome> Following the announcement of the DebConf20 location, our
Jerome> desire to participate became incompatible with our
Jerome> commitment toward the Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions
Jerome> (BDS) campaign launched by Palestinian civ
supports the DC20 Team
=
I want to take this opportunity to express strong support for the
volunteers putting on DebConf 20. Your contributions to the Debian
community are greatly appreciated.
Thanks for your understanding and hard work.
Thanks for your Consideration,
Sam Hartman
Debian Project Leader
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> "Didier" == Didier 'OdyX' Raboud writes:
still saying "one way is to withdraw your budget
Didier> request (…); if that is not your choice, I _ask_ you to find
Didier> some other way". So what happens if they put your request to
Didier> /dev/null, if you're not withdrawing the D
[This will be my last message on this thread.
I go away on vacation tomorrow.]
> "Didier" == Didier 'OdyX' Raboud writes:
Didier> The crux of my strong disagreement is here: as DPL, you just
Didier> _framed_ the Montreal miniDebConf as a protest.
This is a case where perception is
I've just returned from vacation and taken a couple of hours to catch up
on mail I missed.
It was nice to be entirely without email for a week.
During that week, there was a discussion on debian-private about how to
handle abuse and harassing email both on debian-project and in general.
The immed
hi.
Just before I went on vacation, the trademark team let me know that they
need more energy.
That team involves:
1) Answering questions about use of our trademark
2) Following up on infringement of our trademark.
3) Working with the DPL to decide on whether proposed uses of our
trademark
I hereby appoint everybody who was harassed by the Anti-Harassment team to be
the new Anti-Anti-Harassment team
If the Anti-Harassment team backstabs you, the Anti-Anti-Harassment team is on
your side.
Now everybody will feel safe somewhere in Debian but maybe not everywhere at
once
Sent with
>>>>> "Sam" == Sam Hartman writes:
Sam>I hereby appoint everybody who was harassed by the
Sam> Anti-Harassment team to be the new Anti-Anti-Harassment team
For the avoidance of doubt, the mail I am replying to was forged and was
not sent by me.
‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
On Wednesday, March 4, 2020 12:35 AM, Sam Hartman wrote:
> > > > > > "Sam" == Sam Hartman hartmans.debian@protonmail.com writes:
>
> Sam> I hereby appoint everybody who was harassed by the
>
> Sam> Anti-Hara
TL;DR: I decided to ban someone from the project completely. Members of
ftpmaster, DAM, and the community team all agree. The person had
already been banned from our lists and expelled from the project as a
developer. This is an explanation of how that decision fits with our
constitution. If
> "Neil" == Neil McGovern writes:
Neil> I think my point is that we should strive to reach the point
Neil> where it's not inevitable, and that our reality can change. It
Neil> should never be the case that making a hard decision leads to
Neil> abusive messages, and I believe a
> "Xavier" == Xavier writes:
Xavier> Le 07/04/2020 à 17:20, Paul Wise a écrit :
>> On Mon, Apr 6, 2020 at 3:58 PM Bastian Blank wrote:
>>
>>> ## Highlevel plan
>>
>> I'd like to learn a bit about what the effects for Debian account
>> holders and service admins
TL;DR: In Enrico's terms I'm an ACK not a NACK. I'm also trying to help
people considering whether they have blocking objections think about the
problems actually facing Debian.
I'm noticing a bit of a conflict here between people who are familiar
with Debian and people who are familiar with S
> "Enrico" == Enrico Zini writes:
Enrico> On Wed, Apr 08, 2020 at 08:45:32PM +0800, Shengjing Zhu wrote:
>> Sigh, but it makes sense too. Will nm.d.o have a field which
>> reflects the username on salsa?
Enrico> It finally will, yes! \o/
Enrico> It's been quite painful n
> "Enrico" == Enrico Zini writes:
Enrico> I agree that with the current proposal, the use case of
Enrico> "grant a person permission based on their status, which is
Enrico> somehow revoked or blocked if the status goes away" becomes
Enrico> something we might not be able to d
> "Tollef" == Tollef Fog Heen writes:
Tollef> ]] Enrico Zini
>> For guest accounts opened by DSA directly, it can be pretty much
First, at this point in time I would be very skepticle of someone
contributing to Debian enough to need porter box access but not having a
salsa account.
I
I'm pleased to finally be able to propose a Community Team delegation
for discussion. During the last year it has become clear that we can
accomplish more at lower emotional cost when we have the Community Team,
Account Managers and DPL working together, supporting each other. It's
become clear
Sigh.
I propose delegating the following developers as members of the
Community Team.:
> - Pierre-Elliott Bécue (peb)
> - Luke Faraone (lfaraone)
> - Steve McIntyre (93sam)
> - Jean-Philippe Mengual (jpmengual)
Sigh.
Steve pointed out that I left off a name in review comments and I missed
> "Luca" == Luca Filipozzi writes:
[All my statements in this thread have been as an individual, not as
DPL. I've offered to help Enrico facilitate consensus calling in this
discussion, and if he takes me up on that, such facilitation might not
entirely be separable from the DPL role when do
TL;DR: The concern Scott raises is a good one, and I think he caught me
out on a wording problem in the delegation text.
> "Scott" == Scott Kitterman writes:
Scott> Constitution 5.1.4 give the DPL the power to "Make any
Scott> decision for whom noone else has responsibility." Some
Hi. Speaking very much as an individual.
I just spoke to someone who runs a keycloak and gitlab instance for a
group of about 1000 users.
I wanted to inject their experience into the discussion, because having
operational experience is useful in such situations.
* The thing they like about ke
>>>>> "Russ" == Russ Allbery writes:
Russ> Luca Filipozzi writes:
>> On Fri, Apr 10, 2020 at 11:48:22AM -0400, Sam Hartman wrote:
>>> * Note that if you want to you can host accounts in gitlab and
>>> have keycloak act as an
> "Julien" == Julien Cristau writes:
Julien> On Sat, Apr 11, 2020 at 10:04:55AM +0300, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
>>
Julien> f...@salsa.debian.org and f...@debian.org both existing and
Julien> referring to different people risks causing confusion. I'd
Julien> like to understa
Debian's sso architecture
over the years.
Independently of Enrico's proposal, and unremarked by everyone who is in
this discussion, debian.social has adopted the same strategy.
Even if nm.debian.org, contributors.debian.org and sso.debian.org were
not going to use salsa, we'd alrea
> "Luca" == Luca Filipozzi writes:
Luca> This is why having a central approach to account creation,
Luca> rather than distributed, is worth considering. I'm in favour
Luca> of usernames not changing because one's role changes but that
Luca> does not mean I'm favour of divergen
AS I understand it the only open issue preventing a delegation is the
following; we need to find wording that makes it clear you can write to
parties other than the CT.
> >> * To respond to concerns raised by members of the project or
> >> people interacting with them, working with indi
>>>>> "Peter" == Peter Palfrader writes:
Peter> On Mon, 13 Apr 2020, Sam Hartman wrote:
>> >>>>> "Luca" == Luca Filipozzi writes:
>>
Luca> This is why having a central approach to account creation,
Luca>
Martin, Neil has said that he wants to put his effort into Discourse.
It sounds like you'd try something else.
I'll admit to wanting to see an attempt at mailman3 or something like
that but not having the energy to put into it.
I wonder if you or some of the people who would like to try something
I'd like to echo the comment that requiring people to regularly visit
the site does not seem to meet Debian's needs very well for trust.
I'd imagine there are a number of people in our community who will tend
to read things via email, but who would only visit the site to help
moderate--splitting
> "Ihor" == Ihor Antonov writes:
Ihor> I want to leave this as is without final verdict. Everyone
Ihor> should make their own.
I really appreciate the idea of summarizing the thread; I agree with you
it has gotten long.
A good summary is one where people on all sides of the issue
TL;DR: As Tina points out, this delegation does not accomplish
everything. It is an incremental step forward, one of many we've taken
this last year. Tina brings up a number of points where there might be
value in revising text if we get the support to do so. I welcome such
proposals for improv
Absolutely, the DPL, or DAM, or others may forward to the CT.
That would count as it being directed their way.
> "Scott" == Scott Kitterman writes:
Scott> Sam,
Scott> I think you've missed the mark here, except perhaps the why
Scott> another service section at the end.
Scott> Personally I'm in the "I think it's unsuitable for Debian"
Scott> camp and I see my concerns represented.
In my last bits mail I talked about two sets of messages from Russ. The
first talks about the importance of actually leaving room for
disagreement.
THe second talks about hostility in handling new proposals.
Here are pointers.
Russ's Debian vote messages were:
[9]: https://lists.debian.org/
Hi.
I've reviewed most of the spec you point to on salsa.
I think you might be getting some of the details before the basic
principles.
I agree with the principles you state, but would probably state them
differently:
* Incremental review is valuable and is likely to improve our processes
* M
>>>>> "Michael" == Michael Lustfield writes:
Michael> On Tue, 26 May 2020 08:13:24 -0400
Michael> Sam Hartman wrote:
>> Unfortunately, being a member of Debian, I find myself getting
>> stuck in the details and think yo
Hi.
While DPL, I established a relationship with a GDPR lawyer to help the
data protection team and myself with some questions.
They forwarded along the following information about a new guide for
GDPR implications for developers.
The data protection team members were also copied.
--
icant positive reputation
and
2) That it would be costly for them to burn that reputation to maount
an attack.
In this model the advantage of trying to tie a key back to a real-world
identity is that we only get one of those.
No matter how much good work I do in the future, I cannot escape a
betr
> "Jonas" == Jonas Smedegaard writes:
Jonas> I feel that you are somewhat quoting me out of context:
Jonas> For the record, I do *not* find "several months of [remote]
Jonas> collaboration" adequate for trusting an identity. I simply
Jonas> repeated that criterium from the p
TL;DR: While there may be improvements to be found in a completely
different approach to identity, let us not let the scope of the
discussion broaden that far, so we can make progress today.
> "Olek" == Olek Wojnar writes:
Olek> TL;DR: I think without some link back to real world
> "Olek" == Olek Wojnar writes:
> TL;DR: While there may be improvements to be found in a
> completely different approach to identity, let us not let the
> scope of the discussion broaden that far, so we can make
> progress today.
Olek>I respectful disagree on this point. This
> "Olek" == Olek Wojnar writes:
Olek>Sam, I do not appreciate your aspersions and I think your
Hi.
It sounds like you are hearing me as disagreeing with *you* and not with
some combination of your ideas and how they are presented.
I'd like to offer to sit down virtually and work thro
> "Holger" == Holger Levsen writes:
Holger> Sam, you accused Olek of derailing the situation, which
Holger> (AFAICS) he disagrees with, and now you are "offering" to
Holger> solve this problem by Olek investing more time to solve a
Holger> problem that doesnt also in my book
Enrico, I find that the sorts of discussions that you've started are
more valuable if someone goes back later and tries to summarize what
we've learned.
So I'm going to take a stab at that.
I don't think we were seeking a consensus, and we didn't find one. What
we did find is a number of appro
> "Jonathan" == Jonathan McDowell writes:
Jonathan> It's worthwhile stating the actual problem that is trying
Jonathan> to be solved here.
Jonathan> I believe that is: "Given difficulties with keysigning in
Jonathan> the modern environment, what does the project believe is
> "Paul" == Paul Wise writes:
Paul> On Wed, Aug 12, 2020 at 3:27 PM Pierre-Elliott Bécue wrote:
>> I'd rather try to solve the issue in a more sensible way : lower
>> the number of expected GPG signatures to 0 temporarily, and ask
>> for two or three advocacies from DDs.
> "Lucas" == Lucas Nussbaum writes:
Lucas> I think that this proposal combines two quite different
Lucas> aspects, and that it might be better to keep them separate.
Lucas> 1. Maintaining contacts with infrastructure providers that
Lucas> are willing to help Debian. That's of
I've been thinking about your question about alternate names for the
debian.net team.
Everything I come up with would be confusing with regard to DSA--like
the Debian services team.
Perhaps something like Services Facilitators.
Or just go with debian.net team and be clear in the description what
Hi. With respect, I'd like to challenge the idea that integrating more
ways to get funded would undermine some core aspect of Debian.
I think there are two aspects that I consider when I think about the idea
that Debian is not funded by a particular company:
1) Independence. Many people join Deb
I think it is really important that we find a way to accept funding like
this. I'm fine if we as a community have concerns about the specifics.
But free software isn't supposed to mean developers don't get paid, or
the software doesn't get funded (or even the software itself isn't
expensive altho
For me as someone with a above average memory for these sorts of details
and someone who types URIs into browsers and shells, -team is fie extra
characters to type.
It's also a naming restriction in a place where I'm not used to seeing
naming restrictions onother gitlab sites.
However, I too am in
> "Bastian" == Bastian Blank writes:
Bastian> Hi Steve
Bastian> On Sun, Nov 29, 2020 at 03:53:24PM +, Steve McIntyre wrote:
>> Have people been pushing the other way - to remove the suffix?
>> Just curious.
Bastian> That was me. It's because of the maintenance overhe
> "Mark" == Mark Pearson writes:
Mark> Hi all, Not sure the right forum to raise this - please
Mark> redirect me as appropriate :)
Mark> I was checking Debian on my Lenovo P1 G3 today (using testing
Mark> latest) and figured I'd have another stab at getting the
Mark> fing
> "Mark" == Mark Pearson writes:
Mark> It's just a case of needing the libfprint and fprintd packages
Mark> installed and then under settings->user you can start
Mark> registering your prints.
Right, and the desktop maintainers could choose to make their desktop
meta packages dep
> "Dominik" == Dominik George writes:
Dominik> With all due respect to everyone who has been offended by
Dominik> Richard Stallman, feels oppressed by him, or is negatively
Dominik> affected by his views — every single such person has to be
Dominik> heard, their fears and sorr
I wasn't thrilled with Steve's message; I sent him what I hope are some
constructive comments privately.
Bringing up nazis is rarely going to calm things down or promote
constructive discussion.
And yes, he did that.
But Adrian! You really doubled down on the tension.
I appreciate that you are
> "Thomas" == Thomas Goirand writes:
Thomas> The point is: is there some restrictions on political views
Thomas> that the Debian community/project would like to enforce?
Yes, I think this is a topic worth discussing.
There has been a motion in the free software community to focus m
> "Eldon" == Eldon Koyle writes:
Eldon> Thank you for your thoughtful reply.
Eldon> I think I did a bad job of explaining. I'm talking about
Eldon> English words that universally accepted as swearing. I have
Eldon> not seen this class of words used constructively in lists,
> "Martin" == Martin Steigerwald writes:
Martin> I remember that at the recent KDE Academy meetups, I think
Martin> the last two, there has been some workshop about non-violent
Martin> communication.
Martin> Maybe it would be an idea to propose something like that for
Mar
> "gregor" == gregor herrmann writes:
I wrote a long post talking about an approach for possibly balancing
these trade offs in Debian.
Just my ideas, but perhaps reasonably well thought out.
Then I realized that now is not the time to send that post.
If in a month or so when things are calm
> "Steve" == Steve McIntyre writes:
Steve> On Mon, Apr 12, 2021 at 03:30:21PM +, Thaddeus H. Black wrote:
Steve> Umm. Our diversity statement and CoC define agreed
Steve> expectations of behaviour and communication within the
Steve> project; people espousing fascist ideolo
> "Timo" == Timo Röhling writes:
Timo> * Pierre-Elliott Bécue [2021-04-13 11:19]:
>> I would rather not reserve any DEP for this right now. We
>> actually don't really know if any space for DEP text regarding
>> secret voting will be left out. The voting procedure is
>> h
> "Steve" == Steve Langasek writes:
Steve, I'm writing to confirm understanding of our disagreement and to
acknowledge the point you made and explain why it is not persuasive to
me. I'm not trying to convince you to change your mind, simply letting
you know I've considered what you have to s
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