On Sun, 12 Jan 1997, Orn E. Hansen wrote:
>You're really losing the point here... what is in your mind, an EASY
> installation? A brain dead program, that does all your thinking for you?
Come on!!! All I was saying was that it is not CONSISTENT of dselect to
start a XF86Setup during the confi
> From: "Orn E. Hansen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Look at Windows... and all the users running it, with its "idiot proof"=
>
> user interface? You want to make a Debian shot at where Microsoft is fail=
> ing
> so miserably? All you will ever accomplish is a big bunch of helpless
> users, that ca
> From: Pete Templin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>
> On Sat, 11 Jan 1997, Jonas Bofjall wrote:
>
> > No, this is wrong. A new user should not have to read long documents prior
> > to installation. The configure scripts which runs directly after the
> > installation should make reading docs unnecessa
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (John Hasler)
> No, this is wrong. The new user should be provided with copious
> documentation and be admonished to print it out and read it.
^^
don't forget _organized_ -- or they'll never find the right information
Daniel
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On Sun, 12 Jan 1997, Orn E. Hansen wrote:
> The installation should be as complex as it needs be, to be able to take
> care of all possible needs of the system, with the systems cababilities in
> mind. But CONTEXT RELATIVE... which is not the same as EASY. This means if
> you are new to the sy
> "Pete" == Pete Templin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
Pete> On Sat, 11 Jan 1997, Jonas Bofjall wrote:
>> No, this is wrong. A new user should not have to read long
>> documents prior to installation. The configure scripts which runs
>> directly after the installation should make reading docs
>
Jona Bofjall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> No! Installation should be as easy as possible. Our goal should be to make
> it so easy that no one has to look in the manual. And we're not far from
> there. I gave my two friends rex and told them to install it, after having
> saying good things about
On Sat, 11 Jan 1997, Pete Templin wrote:
> > No, this is wrong. A new user should not have to read long documents prior
>
> I disagree. You should understand what you are doing. If you don't even
> want to know what is going and how you are to use it, what is the point of
> having it? Bragging
> > The real question is: "What key does dselect use for repeat searches?"
> > rather than "What key should it be?".
>
> It is just pure / WITHOUT any pattern. It is exactly the same in "more".
"/" always seems to take me to the first package matching that description.
"\" is the repeat key, Rick
On Sat, 11 Jan 1997, Jonas Bofjall wrote:
> No, this is wrong. A new user should not have to read long documents prior
> to installation. The configure scripts which runs directly after the
> installation should make reading docs unnecessary.
I disagree. You should understand what you are doing
On Fri, 10 Jan 1997, Igor Grobman wrote:
> I am no expert either, but pushing / and entering the search string does
> take you to a different package IF it exists. Otherwise, it just takes
> you back to the one package that matches the string.
>
Good! That is what most would expect. If you don't
Jonas Bofjall writes:
> No, this is wrong. A new user should not have to read long documents
> prior to installation.
No, this is wrong. The new user should be provided with copious
documentation and be admonished to print it out and read it.
> The configure scripts which runs directly after the
On Thu, 9 Jan 1997, Chow Chi-Ming wrote:
> Then I don't think it can be considered a bug per se. If XF86Setup is
Neither do I.
> not on your system, you are not expected to run it. You must come
> across XF86Setup from some other documents and from the same source
Yes, but as a totally new us
On Thu, 9 Jan 1997, Dale Scheetz wrote:
> On Wed, 8 Jan 1997, Karl M. Hegbloom wrote:
>
> > > "Hamish" == Hamish Moffatt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> >
> > Hamish> Pressing / and entering the same search just takes you
> > Hamish> back to the first result again. This is counter-in
Dale Scheetz wrote:
> The real question is: "What key does dselect use for repeat searches?"
> rather than "What key should it be?".
>
> I'm not an expert on dselect. I use dpkg almost exclusively to do my
> incremental upgrades. I don't know if there is such a key, or not, but
> it's clear it is
On Fri, 10 Jan 1997, Hamish Moffatt wrote:
> Dale writes:
> > I'm not an expert on dselect. I use dpkg almost exclusively to do my
> > incremental upgrades. I don't know if there is such a key, or not, but
> > it's clear it isn't documented very well if there is one. If there isn't
> > the bug is
On Fri, 10 Jan 1997, Gertjan Klein wrote:
> In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
> Philippe Troin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > Not a bug. What you describe is pre-dependencies. It's a bit too long
> > to explain here, but you can find all the details in the Debian
> > policy manual.
> > Dpkg do
Dale Scheetz wrote:
>
> On Wed, 8 Jan 1997, Karl M. Hegbloom wrote:
>
> > > "Hamish" == Hamish Moffatt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> >
> > Hamish> Pressing / and entering the same search just takes you
> > Hamish> back to the first result again. This is counter-intuitive
> > Ham
> On Wed, 8 Jan 1997, Hamish Moffatt wrote:
> > I don't use emacs, but to me dselect seems to be already too
> > emacs-oriented. For example, searching for a package is done with /,
> > but how do you repeat the search? I haven't studied the help
> > in much detail, but for me the answer is "I don'
> > > "Hamish" == Hamish Moffatt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > Hamish> We should certainly not force a particular editor down
> > Hamish> anyone's throat, especially emacs :-)
> >
> > I think it is pretty safe to assume that many Linux people use BASH.
> > >From the bash manpage
> >
> >
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
Philippe Troin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Wed, 08 Jan 1997 15:42:27 +0100 Gertjan Klein ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
> wrote:
>> One of my most serious criticisms is the fact that in spite of the
>> dependencies being known, packages aren't installed in the right or
Dale writes:
> I'm not an expert on dselect. I use dpkg almost exclusively to do my
> incremental upgrades. I don't know if there is such a key, or not, but
> it's clear it isn't documented very well if there is one. If there isn't
> the bug is in the software instead of the docs (or including the
On Thu, 9 Jan 1997, Ralph Winslow wrote:
> When Chow Chi-Ming wrote, I replied:
>
> This seems easily addressed by honoring the Users' EDITOR environment
> variable setting, so why not?
Its not always set.
Richard G. Roberto
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
011-81-3-3437-7967 - Tokyo, Japan
--
*
On Thu, 9 Jan 1997, Ralph Winslow wrote:
> This seems easily addressed by honoring the Users' EDITOR environment
> variable setting, so why not?
This may already be implemented, so forgive me if I haven't researched
dselect enough: how about using a config file where we can remap all the
keys
On Wed, 8 Jan 1997, Karl M. Hegbloom wrote:
> > "Hamish" == Hamish Moffatt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>
> Hamish> Pressing / and entering the same search just takes you
> Hamish> back to the first result again. This is counter-intuitive
> Hamish> for users of vi, less etc. Lynx
IMO dselect is a wonderful tool and Debian would be sunk without it. We
all owe a great deal to Ian for his work. The problem is that the
learning curve for new users is a bit steep. The words _brick_wall_ have
been mentioned.
On initial install could dselect be run in the background so that n
When Chow Chi-Ming wrote, I replied:
This seems easily addressed by honoring the Users' EDITOR environment
variable setting, so why not?
>
> > "Hamish" == Hamish Moffatt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>
> Hamish> We should certainly not force a particular editor down
> Hamish> anyone's throat,
On Wed, 8 Jan 1997, Jonas Bofjall wrote:
> About what could be made easier in Debian:
> I gave Debian 1.2 to two people who has little or no experience with
> Linux. They both made the same mistake, not installing the 16 color X
> server. This should be clarified, that you will need it b
> "Hamish" == Hamish Moffatt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
Hamish> We should certainly not force a particular editor down
Hamish> anyone's throat, especially emacs :-)
I think it is pretty safe to assume that many Linux people use BASH.
>From the bash manpage
[...]
READLINE
This is the
On Wed, 8 Jan 1997, Ami Ganguli wrote:
> Michael Stutz wrote:
> > I am starting a project now that I've
> > been thinking about for some time: making a custom Debian "distribution"
> > geared toward writers, artists and other creative types who don't have much
> > knowledge of Linux to start with.
> From: "Richard Morin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
...
> Now really, how much can a complete novice really do with a new Linux
> machine. It takes an investment of time, energy, and interest to
> learn even the simplest of tasks, but once you know them ;-)
[Fun. The spamfilter rejected my email. Musta forgot to register my
silas account.]
: To the other newbies out there, this mailing list somehow ends up
: archived as a newsgroup. I've found lots of help by searching
: problems at
: http://www.dejanews.com/
There's a mail-to-news gateway, I t
On Wed, 8 Jan 1997, Philippe Troin wrote:
>
> On Wed, 08 Jan 1997 15:42:27 +0100 Gertjan Klein ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
> wrote:
>
> > One of my most serious criticisms is the fact that in spite of the
> > dependencies being known, packages aren't installed in the right order.
> > If package 1 dep
> "Pete" == Pete Templin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
Pete> Keep in mind that we are all getting a generally fantastic
Pete> product for the best price anyone could ask for.
Hear, hear.
Pete> Dselect might lead you
Pete> astray. But accept what the Debian project has given ea
>So, in hindsight, it was necessary to get my hands dirty, and see how
>bad upgrading, and maintenance could be before I found Debian.
I agree. I started off much the same way (only I started with SunOS, found
how yucky upgrading was, found slackware nicer and then found debian a few
months ag
Those are words well spoken...
>
> On Tue, 7 Jan 1997, Martin Konold wrote:
>
> > Yes, a very good point. I am offering a host for a mailing list.
> > We should first figure out how it should work and implement it
> > afterwards. There is definetelly a need for a improved dselect.
> >
> > Ac
Hello
I think the ide of a simpel istall-tool as a compliment to dselect
wery-much-as-it-is is a god ide. Making dselect more a mangement tool
then an install tool. Dselect is a good managment tool, but less god
first install tool for inexperient users. Most of the problems that
comes with dselect
> I think that this is a great idea. One of the things that keeps Slackware
> alive is that fact that it is *so* easy to install (even if it is buggy and
> a nightmare to maintain).
My background is this: Had my computer for a year. Never heard of
Linux until Apr'96. Started with a CD that
Ian Jackson is listed as the maintainer of the dpkg package which
contains dselect. I just sent him a short note letting him know that
there is a group of users who wish to help improve dselect, and asking
for his guidance. If he is very busy, he may prefer not to be a
member of the dselect proje
Good idea!
On Tue, 7 Jan 1997 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> I agree that dselect has some problems for users who are new to it. I
> too have seen people who where experienced with unix and who were
> mystified by dselect at first. I suppose that means that there is
> room for improvement, even
On Wed, 08 Jan 1997 15:42:27 +0100 Gertjan Klein ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
wrote:
> One of my most serious criticisms is the fact that in spite of the
> dependencies being known, packages aren't installed in the right order.
> If package 1 depends on package 2, then package 2 *must* be installed
> *
In article
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> you
write:
>Actually why is the maintainer so silent?
>
>Is dselect still maintained?
AFAIK Ian is currently busy finishing his PhD thesis, but has promised
he'll do some work on dselect soon.
--
Steve McIntyre, CURS Secretary, Cambridge, UK. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
This is getting a little bit off topic, but is there a working group for
making Debian easier to install? Not just dselect, but the documentation,
the layout and organization of www.debian.org, the whole works? If there is,
I want to get involved with it because I am starting a project now that I'v
Pete Templin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Tue, 7 Jan 1997, Martin Konold wrote:
>> Actually why is the maintainer so silent?
> Perhaps you would be silent if discussions about your package were turning
> into some semi-serious bash N trash sessions.
If s/he (or you) interprets at least
> "Hamish" == Hamish Moffatt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
Hamish> Pressing / and entering the same search just takes you
Hamish> back to the first result again. This is counter-intuitive
Hamish> for users of vi, less etc. Lynx uses "n" to repeat a
Hamish> search but dselect do
Pete Templin wrote:
>
> On Tue, 7 Jan 1997, Martin Konold wrote:
>
> > Actually why is the maintainer so silent?
>
> Perhaps you would be silent if discussions about your package were turning
> into some semi-serious bash N trash sessions. I'd like to offer my two
> cents about Debian and dsele
Problems I have seen with dselect:
causes serial port overruns, don't know if dpkg does too.
any options from the main menu that causes the cdrom to
be read must be selected twice in order for it to work.
it scans each possible package and determines its state
when installing new packages, resu
On Tue, 7 Jan 1997, George Bonser wrote:
>
> In my opinion, dselect is the single biggest stumbling block standing in the
> way of greater acceptance of Debian linux.
>
> I have seen new users become so frustrated with it that they have thrown the
> CD against a wall.
That doesn't mean anything
In my opinion, dselect is the single biggest stumbling block standing in the
way of greater acceptance of Debian linux.
I have seen new users become so frustrated with it that they have thrown the
CD against a wall.
--
George Bonser
[EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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On Wed, 8 Jan 1997, Hamish Moffatt wrote:
> I don't use emacs, but to me dselect seems to be already too
> emacs-oriented. For example, searching for a package is done with /,
> but how do you repeat the search? I haven't studied the help
> in much detail, but for me the answer is "I don't know" p
On Tue, 7 Jan 1997 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Over the last year, I've done many installations and upgrades of
> debian using dselect. During that time, I've learned how to use it --
> and I find it quite comfortable use. What you are used to is easy, I
> guess. Since we seem to be picking on d
On Tue, 7 Jan 1997, Martin Konold wrote:
> Yes, a very good point. I am offering a host for a mailing list.
> We should first figure out how it should work and implement it
> afterwards. There is definetelly a need for a improved dselect.
>
> Actually why is the maintainer so silent?
Perhaps yo
> On Tue, 7 Jan 1997 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Dear Developers,
> > guess. Since we seem to be picking on dselect's user interface again,
> > I wish it had more "emacs-like" key bindings, but it's a marvelous
> > tool as it is, IMHO.
>
> PLEASE, please, please do not confront people with 'emacs-
>I have a really radical suggestion, and that is to split off the
>installation process from dselect. Have a dinstall and rename dselect to
>dmanager or something. Then make dinstall a much simpler, less
>featureful tool, that offers to install groups of packages to fit
>various usages. One of my f
On Tue, 7 Jan 1997, Michael Stutz wrote:
> In concept, dselect is great. It's an attempt to create a user interface
> that's not based on the window/pulldown menu interface that (I believe) is
I totally agree with you.
What often confuses me about dselect is that it sometimes when running
into d
On 7 Jan 1997, John Henders wrote:
> In <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Gertjan Klein <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> I have a really radical suggestion, and that is to split off the
> installation process from dselect.
I agree.. However, how about automatically installing the first round of
"stuff" without
On Tue, 7 Jan 1997 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> I agree that dselect has some problems for users who are new to it. I
> too have seen people who where experienced with unix and who were
> mystified by dselect at first.
In concept, dselect is great. It's an attempt to create a user interface
that's
In <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Gertjan Klein <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>Kirk Hilliard wrote:
>[A nice list of suggested dselect improvements, which I mostly agree
>with]
>In addition, I think the following improvements are important:
> - Create a log file containing *everything* that is output to th
I agree that dselect has some problems for users who are new to it. I
too have seen people who where experienced with unix and who were
mystified by dselect at first. I suppose that means that there is
room for improvement, even if I personally don't find much wrong with
dselect the way it is.
On Tue, 7 Jan 1997, Gertjan Klein wrote:
Thanks for your nice proposal. I like it very much.
> The kernel 'make menuconfig' is a nice example.
This is IMHO an excellent example how it could be done.
In the kernel hierachy you might enter:
'make config'
'make menuconfig'
'make xconfig'
Eve
On Tue, 7 Jan 1997 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Dear Developers,
> Over the last year, I've done many installations and upgrades of
> debian using dselect. During that time, I've learned how to use it --
> and I find it quite comfortable use. What you are used to is easy, I
> guess. Since we seem
Kirk Hilliard wrote:
[A nice list of suggested dselect improvements, which I mostly agree
with]
In addition, I think the following improvements are important:
- Create a log file containing *everything* that is output to the
screen (stdout and stderr). I noticed more than one package complaini
Over the last year, I've done many installations and upgrades of
debian using dselect. During that time, I've learned how to use it --
and I find it quite comfortable use. What you are used to is easy, I
guess. Since we seem to be picking on dselect's user interface again,
I wish it had more "e
> David Gaudine wrote:
> > ... maybe this has warped my attitude. But personally, I don't want
> > to even *think* about installing X on a system until I've already
> > installed everything else.
>
> Dselect is not only Debian's face to the world, it is also an
> administrative tool which should b
Kirk Hilliard wrote:
> I absolutely agree. While an X based version of dselect might
be
> nice, what with the added utility of a mouse, scroll bars, and
> possible multiple windows, the text based dselect must have the same
> functionality and almost nearly the same ease of use.
That's what I
David Gaudine wrote:
> ... maybe this has warped my attitude. But personally, I don't want
> to even *think* about installing X on a system until I've already
> installed everything else.
I absolutely agree. While an X based version of dselect might be
nice, what with the added utility of a mouse
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