Re: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off of Better specifying....)

I have done enough. If you feel that is not the case to satisfy you bureaucratic need, you go ahead and scratch that itch. Best regards, Pierre Smits *ORRTIZ.COM * Services & Solutions for Cloud- Based Manufacturing, Professional Services and Retail & Trade http://www.orrt

Re: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off of Better specifying....)

On Fri, Jul 10, 2015 at 10:56 AM, Pierre Smits wrote: > Tim, > > It seems you're rather fond of it. Huh? I'm not sure what "it" is or why you're making observations about what I'm fond of. > Quite the number of posters in this > thread are particpating in either body, or both. I feel confident t

Re: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off of Better specifying....)

On 10 July 2015 at 12:56, Pierre Smits wrote: > Tim, > > It seems you're rather fond of it. Quite the number of posters in this > thread are particpating in either body, or both. I feel confident that they > can take it as input from here and discuss appropriate follow-up in their > specific mail

Re: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off of Better specifying....)

Tim, It seems you're rather fond of it. Quite the number of posters in this thread are particpating in either body, or both. I feel confident that they can take it as input from here and discuss appropriate follow-up in their specific mailing lists. Best regards, Pierre Smits *ORRTIZ.COM

Re: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off of Better specifying....)

On Fri, Jul 10, 2015 at 10:23 AM, Pierre Smits wrote: > Branko, > > I am confident that the existing project with bylaws, policies and/or > standing rules formalised has had its share of discussions regarding > applicability of elements therein.. And have resolved those. I guess that > when such a

Re: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off of Better specifying....)

Branko, I am confident that the existing project with bylaws, policies and/or standing rules formalised has had its share of discussions regarding applicability of elements therein.. And have resolved those. I guess that when such an element is either to vague or to restrictive so that the situati

Re: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off of Better specifying....)

Nice. I like proza as well. Before long we'll embark on the path, where we only see multi-interpretable quotes and we quibble over semantics. Best regards, Pierre Smits *ORRTIZ.COM * Services & Solutions for Cloud- Based Manufacturing, Professional Services and Retail & T

Re: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off of Better specifying....)

Hopefully you don't mind me helping with a colorful euphemisms here. In the words of immortal Tao De Jing When government is lazy and informal The people are kind and honest; When government is efficient and severe The people are discontented and deceitful. Cos On Tue, Jul 07, 2015 at 03:11P

Re: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off of Better specifying....)

Pierre, I could find any number of euphemisms to say the same thing, but I prefer to say what I mean and not beat about the bush. To give you an idea where my disgust comes from: Every project here that I know of that has bylaws about decision-making has some kind of fundamental problem and consta

Re: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off of Better specifying....)

t; will quote my summary from earlier in this thread: "In the absence of > [project] bye-laws the defaults apply. " > > -Original Message- > From: Pierre Smits [mailto:pierre.sm...@gmail.com] > Sent: Monday, July 6, 2015 11:09 AM > To: dev@community.apache.org

RE: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off of Better specifying....)

erre Smits [mailto:pierre.sm...@gmail.com] Sent: Monday, July 6, 2015 11:09 AM To: dev@community.apache.org Subject: Re: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off of Better specifying) I am confident, Ross, that you are equally capable of doing that. So why don'

Re: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off of Better specifying....)

That's called 'difference of opinions'. Nobody is entitled to like others' viewpoints. In fact, there are certain viewpoints that hardly can cause anything but regurgitation in a sane human being. On the hand, no one can denied anyone a right to express their opinions. Cos On Mon, Jul 06, 2015 at

Re: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off of Better specifying....)

I am confident, Ross, that you are equally capable of doing that. So why don't you give it a go? Best regards, Pierre Smits *ORRTIZ.COM * Services & Solutions for Cloud- Based Manufacturing, Professional Services and Retail & Trade http://www.orrtiz.com On Mon, Jul 6, 201

Re: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off of Better specifying....)

No worries, Konstantin. I won't hold that against you. Best regards, Pierre Smits *ORRTIZ.COM * Services & Solutions for Cloud- Based Manufacturing, Professional Services and Retail & Trade http://www.orrtiz.com On Mon, Jul 6, 2015 at 8:57 PM, Konstantin Boudnik wrote:

Re: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off of Better specifying....)

Just to point to the source of my confusiony. My impression came from this part: > > > Like expressed earlier, that loosely way of interpreting ASF guidelines > > > has > > > led to the situation that the board charges newly established projects to > > > define its bylaws. Charges that are then d

Re: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off of Better specifying....)

So can you summarize what you are saying. Sent from Surface From: Pierre Smits Sent: ?Monday?, ?July? ?6?, ?2015 ?10?:?47? ?AM To: dev@community.apache.org Hi Konstantin, No, I am not saying that, neither explicitly nor effectively

Re: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off of Better specifying....)

Hi Konstantin, No, I am not saying that, neither explicitly nor effectively. Thus no, not a correct representation of the point of discussion. Maybe you got that impression (regarding blanket bylaws, or projects going off the handle) by reading the postings of others. Best regards, Pierre Op ma

Re: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off of Better specifying....)

Let me see if I read you right, Pierre. Effectively, you're saying that imposing a blanket bylaws system should help to prevent some rare cases of established projects going off the handle? Is this a correct representation of the point of this discussion? I am not as eloquent as you're in paintin

Re: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off of Better specifying....)

On 5 Jul 2015 00:34, "Pierre Smits" wrote: > >> Having such an official ASF policy without the executing office policing > >> it, without podlings being required to accept and instill it in their > >> bylaws before graduation and allowing existing projects not to > incorporate > >> it makes it no

Re: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off of Better specifying....)

https://plus.google.com/+GoogleArtProject On 6 Jul 2015 23:45, "Pierre Smits" wrote: > Actually, Martin, I read that too a while ago, and I can't regard it as > anything else but just a viewpoint expressed by someone who is reacting to > a posting of someone else > > Such an expression neithe

Re: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off of Better specifying....)

Actually, Martin, I read that too a while ago, and I can't regard it as anything else but just a viewpoint expressed by someone who is reacting to a posting of someone else Such an expression neither makes it a policy of the ASF, nor justifies why the board, when voting on a podling wishing gr

Re: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off of Better specifying....)

On 6 Jul 2015 20:26, "Benson Margulies" wrote: > > This thread started with a discussion of the CoC. The premise of the > thread was this: that counter-CoC behavior might emerge on a project, > and that the project might tolerate, or even celebrate, that behavior, > for lack of an explicit bylaw e

Re: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off of Better specifying....)

On Mon, Jul 6, 2015 at 12:51 AM, Branko Čibej wrote: > I find myself disgusted by this widespread assumption that each project > needs its own bylaws. WTF for? Are not ASF policies and practices enough > for everyone? What sort of bylaws could you possibly invent that are > both a useful extensio

Re: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off of Better specifying....)

This thread started with a discussion of the CoC. The premise of the thread was this: that counter-CoC behavior might emerge on a project, and that the project might tolerate, or even celebrate, that behavior, for lack of an explicit bylaw explicitly adopting the CoC. This premise is wrong. The Co

Re: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off of Better specifying....)

On Monday, July 6, 2015, sebb wrote: > On 6 July 2015 at 10:24, jan i > wrote: > > On 6 July 2015 at 11:10, Pierre Smits > wrote: > > > >> Thank you, Branko. I feel (somewhat) sorry for you, when I read your > >> statement of being disgusted by the viewpoint of others on the matter. I > >> hope

Re: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off of Better specifying....)

Or not! Some still believe that it is 'consensus' that is required for any procedural issues and think their -1 vote vetoes a change. That applies not only to on and off-boarding of new PMC Members and committers, but also to other policy changes. Best regards, Pierre Smits *ORRTIZ.COM

Re: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off of Better specifying....)

On 6 July 2015 at 10:24, jan i wrote: > On 6 July 2015 at 11:10, Pierre Smits wrote: > >> Thank you, Branko. I feel (somewhat) sorry for you, when I read your >> statement of being disgusted by the viewpoint of others on the matter. I >> hope you recover from it soon. >> > > Having been (and stil

Re: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off of Better specifying....)

And you can read 'determination' as well as 'perception'. Best regards, Pierre Smits *ORRTIZ.COM * Services & Solutions for Cloud- Based Manufacturing, Professional Services and Retail & Trade http://www.orrtiz.com On Mon, Jul 6, 2015 at 1:34 PM, Pierre Smits wrote: > L

Re: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off of Better specifying....)

Like expressed earlier, that loosely way of interpreting ASF guidelines has led to the situation that the board charges newly established projects to define its bylaws. Charges that are then disregarded by the project and not followed up on by the board and or the appointed VP of the project. It i

Re: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off of Better specifying....)

On Mon, Jul 6, 2015 at 11:38 AM, Pierre Smits wrote: > ...The latest posting by Jan proves the point of the necessity of good > per-project bylaws when it comes to deviating from the generic guidelines > of the ASF... But as others have said, the best is to stick to those guidelines and use the d

Re: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off of Better specifying....)

The latest posting by Jan proves the point of the necessity of good per-project bylaws when it comes to deviating from the generic guidelines of the ASF. Bylaws define the parameters of how processes are be executed within a project, when it comes to the procedural aspects. His example given, rega

Re: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off of Better specifying....)

On 6 July 2015 at 11:10, Pierre Smits wrote: > Thank you, Branko. I feel (somewhat) sorry for you, when I read your > statement of being disgusted by the viewpoint of others on the matter. I > hope you recover from it soon. > Having been (and still be) in a project that have strong bylaws, limit

Re: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off of Better specifying....)

Thank you, Branko. I feel (somewhat) sorry for you, when I read your statement of being disgusted by the viewpoint of others on the matter. I hope you recover from it soon. Best regards, Pierre Smits *ORRTIZ.COM * Services & Solutions for Cloud- Based Manufacturing, Profe

Re: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off of Better specifying....)

I would say that the (hints of) examples presented, especially meaning deviation of the general 'guideline' of a simple majority vote for (procedural) aspects would be enough reason for any aspiring ASF project to do just to all to have a set of bylaws. Despite all the ASF pages to make its philos

Re: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off of Better specifying....)

On 04.07.2015 18:34, Pierre Smits wrote: > Having done a cursory review of the incubator reports to the board for > this year (January till May/June 2015), I found that only the SAMOA > podling reported working on a project set of bylaws, which without > knowing details could encompass and/or incor

Re: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off of Better specifying....)

Hi, On Sun, Jul 5, 2015 at 6:30 AM, Pierre Smits wrote: > if a project wants to deviate from the general rule of a simple > majority voting for specific aspects - think off changing the direction or > goal of the project, or e.g. every registered contributor (iCLA filed) has > a vote with re

Re: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off of Better specifying....)

sence of bye-laws the defaults apply. > >> > >> Sent from my Windows Phone > >> ____________________ > >> From: Pierre Smits<mailto:pierre.sm...@gmail.com > > >> Sent: ‎7/‎4/‎2015 3:35 PM > >> To: dev@community.apache.org dev@communit

RE: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off of Better specifying....)

rtant, hence the defaults apply. Sent from my Windows Phone From: Pierre Smits<mailto:pierre.sm...@gmail.com> Sent: ‎7/‎4/‎2015 9:30 PM To: dev@community.apache.org<mailto:dev@community.apache.org> Subject: Re: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @

Re: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off of Better specifying....)

Since Apache Zest (where I am the PMC Chair) was mentioned about called out by the Board to create by-laws, I got curious to understand where that came from, since I couldn't recall such order. In reality, I wrote (copied) it myself in the Board Resolution to create the project in the first place;

Re: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off of Better specifying....)

As it has been established in the "Veto! Veto?" thread that with procedural issues a bit more is required than the generic statements in the Code of Conduct and other pages describing the Apache Way. Especially if a project wants to deviate from the general rule of a simple majority voting for spec

Re: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off of Better specifying....)

On Sat, Jul 4, 2015 at 4:12 PM, Benson Margulies wrote: > In fact, I told at least one podling that bylaws are a faint smell of > trouble -- if you have enough conflict to feel the need to write down > the rules, you might do better working out the reason for the conflict > than writing down the r

RE: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off of Better specifying....)

M To: dev@community.apache.org Subject: Re: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off of Better specifying) Is that just your opinion? Or something that is documented elsewhere as a part of the rules of the game for projects of the ASF? And if so, where? Best regards,

RE: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off of Better specifying....)

- From: Benson Margulies [mailto:bimargul...@gmail.com] Sent: Saturday, July 4, 2015 4:13 PM To: dev@community.apache.org Subject: Re: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off of Better specifying) Writing as someone who has mentored a squad of podlings, I do not bel

Re: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off of Better specifying....)

he >>> > community is pushing paperwork? Doesn't that make the Community over >>> Code >>> > aspect of the Apache Way nothing more than a hollow phrase? >>> > >>> > Best regards, >>> > >>> > Pierre >>> > >

Re: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off of Better specifying....)

>> From: Pierre Smits<mailto:pierre.sm...@gmail.com> >> Sent: ‎7/‎4/‎2015 3:35 PM >> To: dev@community.apache.org<mailto:dev@community.apache.org> >> Subject: Re: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off >> of Bette

Re: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off of Better specifying....)

Smits<mailto:pierre.sm...@gmail.com> > Sent: ‎7/‎4/‎2015 3:35 PM > To: dev@community.apache.org<mailto:dev@community.apache.org> > Subject: Re: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off > of Better specifying) > > How can that be? The board o

RE: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off of Better specifying....)

gt; > The ASF is about doing the right thing in code, not pushing paperwork (or > > the electronic equivalent). > > > > Sent from my Windows Phone > > ________________ > > From: Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH)<mailto:ross.gard...@microsoft.com> > &

Re: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off of Better specifying....)

ing paperwork (or > > the electronic equivalent). > > > > Sent from my Windows Phone > > ____________ > > From: Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH)<mailto:ross.gard...@microsoft.com> > > Sent: ‎7/‎4/‎2015 10:08 AM > > To: dev@community.

RE: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off of Better specifying....)

ev@community.apache.org<mailto:dev@community.apache.org> > Subject: RE: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off > of Better specifying) > > The ASF is about doing the right thing in code, not loading passport (our > the electronic equivalent). There are def

RE: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off of Better specifying....)

From: Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH)<mailto:ross.gard...@microsoft.com> Sent: ‎7/‎4/‎2015 10:08 AM To: dev@community.apache.org<mailto:dev@community.apache.org> Subject: RE: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off of Better specifying) The ASF is about

RE: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off of Better specifying....)

The ASF is about doing the right thing in code, not loading passport (our the electronic equivalent). There are default position for most situations in a project. In the absence of project specific exceptions the default applies. Most projects are happy with the default and prefer to write code