Re: [DNSOP] Whiskey Tango Foxtrot on key lengths...

2014-04-01 Thread S Moonesamy
At 15:47 27-03-2014, Joe Abley wrote: There was a plan underway to roll the KSK. I was at ICANN briefly when that started (I spoke publicly, albeit briefly about it in the dnsop meeting in Berlin). I'm no longer at ICANN and hence no longer have anything authoritative to say, but it seems

Re: [DNSOP] Whiskey Tango Foxtrot on key lengths...

2014-04-01 Thread Olafur Gudmundsson
On Mar 27, 2014, at 6:54 PM, Bill Woodcock wo...@pch.net wrote: On Mar 27, 2014, at 10:14 AM, Matthäus Wander matthaeus.wan...@uni-due.de wrote: Here's a small statistic about RSA key lengths of 741,552 signed second-level domains (collected on 2014-01-27, counting KSK and ZSKs): 1024

Re: [DNSOP] Whiskey Tango Foxtrot on key lengths...

2014-04-01 Thread Bill Woodcock
On Apr 1, 2014, at 5:39 AM, Olafur Gudmundsson o...@ogud.com wrote: Doing these big jumps is the wrong thing to do, increasing the key size increases three things: time to generate signatures bits on the wire verification time. I care more about verification time

Re: [DNSOP] Whiskey Tango Foxtrot on key lengths...

2014-04-01 Thread Nicholas Weaver
On Apr 1, 2014, at 5:39 AM, Olafur Gudmundsson o...@ogud.com wrote: Doing these big jumps is the wrong thing to do, increasing the key size increases three things: time to generate signatures bits on the wire verification time. I care more about verification time

Re: [DNSOP] Whiskey Tango Foxtrot on key lengths...

2014-04-01 Thread Phillip Hallam-Baker
On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 9:05 AM, Nicholas Weaver nwea...@icsi.berkeley.eduwrote: On Apr 1, 2014, at 5:39 AM, Olafur Gudmundsson o...@ogud.com wrote: Doing these big jumps is the wrong thing to do, increasing the key size increases three things: time to generate signatures

Re: [DNSOP] Whiskey Tango Foxtrot on key lengths...

2014-04-01 Thread Nicholas Weaver
On Apr 1, 2014, at 6:39 AM, Phillip Hallam-Baker hal...@gmail.com wrote: Yes, I agree, but you are proposing a different DNSSEC model to the one they believe in. The DNS world has put all their eggs into the DNSSEC from Authoritative to Stub client model. They only view the

Re: [DNSOP] Whiskey Tango Foxtrot on key lengths...

2014-04-01 Thread Jelte Jansen
On 04/01/2014 03:39 PM, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote: Yes, I agree, but you are proposing a different DNSSEC model to the one they believe in. The DNS world has put all their eggs into the DNSSEC from Authoritative to Stub client model. They only view the Authoritative to Resolver as a

Re: [DNSOP] Whiskey Tango Foxtrot on key lengths...

2014-04-01 Thread Colm MacCárthaigh
On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 5:39 AM, Olafur Gudmundsson o...@ogud.com wrote: Doing these big jumps is the wrong thing to do, increasing the key size increases three things: time to generate signatures bits on the wire verification time. I care more about verification

Re: [DNSOP] Whiskey Tango Foxtrot on key lengths...

2014-04-01 Thread Colm MacCárthaigh
On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 6:39 AM, Phillip Hallam-Baker hal...@gmail.comwrote: On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 9:05 AM, Nicholas Weaver nwea...@icsi.berkeley.edu wrote: Lets assume a typical day of 1 billion external lookups for a major ISP centralized resolver, and that all are verified. Thats less 1

Re: [DNSOP] Whiskey Tango Foxtrot on key lengths...

2014-04-01 Thread Mark Andrews
In message CAMm+Lwh-G7D5Cjx4NWMOhTjBZd=vvrhipdk7l1zm-p0qrp8...@mail.gmail.com , Phillip Hallam-Baker writes: On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 9:05 AM, Nicholas Weaver nwea...@icsi.berkeley.eduwrote: On Apr 1, 2014, at 5:39 AM, Olafur Gudmundsson o...@ogud.com wrote: Doing these big jumps is

Re: [DNSOP] Whiskey Tango Foxtrot on key lengths...

2014-04-01 Thread Colm MacCárthaigh
On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 3:39 PM, Mark Andrews ma...@isc.org wrote: As I have said many times. There is a myth that recursive servers do not need to validate answers. Recursive servers will always need to validate answers. Stub resolvers can't recover from recursive servers that pass through

Re: [DNSOP] Whiskey Tango Foxtrot on key lengths...

2014-04-01 Thread Mark Andrews
In message CAAF6GDe=39bmvdotox+9coah7r06erm-juk19zwpeuvkxep...@mail.gmail.com, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Colm_MacC=E1rthaigh?= writ es: --089e011825440f264b04f604135f Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 3:39 PM, Mark Andrews ma...@isc.org wrote: As I have said many

Re: [DNSOP] Whiskey Tango Foxtrot on key lengths...

2014-04-01 Thread Colm MacCárthaigh
On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 5:31 PM, Mark Andrews ma...@isc.org wrote: This too is going too far; of course they can, they can ask another recursive resolver. Which also passes through bogus answers. I will repeat stub resolvers can't recover from recursive servers that pass through bogus

Re: [DNSOP] Whiskey Tango Foxtrot on key lengths...

2014-04-01 Thread Olafur Gudmundsson
On Apr 1, 2014, at 9:05 AM, Nicholas Weaver nwea...@icsi.berkeley.edu wrote: On Apr 1, 2014, at 5:39 AM, Olafur Gudmundsson o...@ogud.com wrote: Doing these big jumps is the wrong thing to do, increasing the key size increases three things: time to generate signatures bits

[DNSOP] CD (Re: Whiskey Tango Foxtrot on key lengths...)

2014-04-01 Thread Evan Hunt
On Tue, Apr 01, 2014 at 06:25:12PM -0700, Colm MacC?rthaigh wrote: DNSSEC is a mitigation against spoofed responses, man-in-the-middle interception-and-rewriting and cache compromises. These threats are endpoint and path specific, so it's entirely possible that one of your resolvers (or its

[DNSOP] CD bit (was Re: Whiskey Tango Foxtrot on key lengths...)

2014-04-01 Thread Andrew Sullivan
On Wed, Apr 02, 2014 at 09:39:43AM +1100, Mark Andrews wrote: Always set CD=1 is also bad advice. Stub resolvers need to send both CD=1 and CD=0 queries and should default to CD=0. CD=1 should be left to the case where they get a SERVFAIL result to the CD=0 to handle the case where the

Re: [DNSOP] Whiskey Tango Foxtrot on key lengths...

2014-04-01 Thread Olafur Gudmundsson
On Apr 1, 2014, at 10:48 PM, Paul Hoffman paul.hoff...@vpnc.org wrote: On Apr 1, 2014, at 7:37 PM, Olafur Gudmundsson o...@ogud.com wrote: Why not go to a good ECC instead ? (not sure which one, but not P256 or P384) Why not P256 or P384? They are the most-studied curves. Some of the

Re: [DNSOP] Whiskey Tango Foxtrot on key lengths...

2014-04-01 Thread Colm MacCárthaigh
On Tuesday, April 1, 2014, Olafur Gudmundsson o...@ogud.com wrote: you are assuming one validation per question ? what if the resolver needs to to 10? that is 1.8ms, I'm not :) as I wrote - if the resolver validates after it has recursed, only the final end of the line validation increases

Re: [DNSOP] CD bit (was Re: Whiskey Tango Foxtrot on key lengths...)

2014-04-01 Thread Andrew Sullivan
On Wed, Apr 02, 2014 at 02:23:50PM +1100, Mark Andrews wrote: And I pointed out before RFC 6840 was published that the appendix was incomplete in its analysis. For whatever it's worth, my recollection is that, among other things, you offered the sort of calm, reasoned, fully-explained analysis

Re: [DNSOP] CD (Re: Whiskey Tango Foxtrot on key lengths...)

2014-04-01 Thread Colm MacCárthaigh
On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 7:49 PM, Evan Hunt e...@isc.org wrote: On Tue, Apr 01, 2014 at 06:25:12PM -0700, Colm MacC?rthaigh wrote: DNSSEC is a mitigation against spoofed responses, man-in-the-middle interception-and-rewriting and cache compromises. These threats are endpoint and path

Re: [DNSOP] CD (Re: Whiskey Tango Foxtrot on key lengths...)

2014-04-01 Thread Nicholas Weaver
On Apr 1, 2014, at 10:24 PM, Colm MacCárthaigh c...@allcosts.net wrote: I don't think this makes much sense for a coherent resolver. If I were writing a resolver, the behaviour would instead be; try really hard to find a valid response, exhaust every reasonable possibility. If it can't