[EM] Voting reform statement; a clearer and more inspiring version

I very much agree with Jameson Quinn that the time has come to write, sign, and widely distribute a formal statement of the election-method principles that we agree upon. Yet instead of just providing a checklist of what we approve, I suggest we take advantage of this opportunity to ... * ...

[EM] Voting reform statement; a clearer and more inspiring version

I've just been looking at the statement - https://docs.google.com/document/d/1oyJLxI9dciXBbowM5mougnbGHzkL3Ue1QkD8nnMwWLg/edit?hl=en_US&pli=1# I think overall it's pretty good, but there are a couple of things I thought I'd mention. It seems to repeat itself:   "Four of the counting methods th

Re: [EM] Voting reform statement; a clearer and more inspiring version

On Aug 23, 2011, at 9:06 PM, Richard Fobes wrote: I very much agree with Jameson Quinn that the time has come to write, sign, and widely distribute a formal statement of the election-method principles that we agree upon. Yet instead of just providing a checklist of what we approve, I sugges

Re: [EM] Voting reform statement; a clearer and more inspiring, version

Several thoughts (not a thorough critique) after one straight-through reading: 1. Length: I agree that for the reasons Richard described, the length of his proposed declaration (less than 2300 words) is appropriate and that trying to shorten it very much would be a mistake. It's long compared

Re: [EM] Voting reform statement; a clearer and more inspiring version

> > > Again I choke on IRV getting near Condorcet, even though they use the same > ballot. > > I've seen several results arguing for Condorcet/IRV hybrids as having good strategy resistance compared to other Condorcet methods. For instance, http://www.votingmatters.org.uk/FORTHCOMING/I29P1f.pdf . T

Re: [EM] Voting reform statement; a clearer and more inspiring, version

2011/8/24 Markus Schulze > > > in my opinion, the "Voting Reform Statement" > endorses too many alternative election methods. > Opponents will argue that this long list > demonstrates that even we don't have a clue > which election method should be adopted. > > Is that worse than what happens if w

Re: [EM] Voting reform statement; a clearer and more inspiring version

If one wishes to "distribute a formal statement of the election-method principles that we agree upon.", would it not be wise to start by finding out which principles command agreement? Perhaps it would be better to take one step back and jointly define the principles before attempting a formal

Re: [EM] Voting reform statement; a clearer and more inspiring version

I think that, in discussing the statement specifics, we are discussing our shared principles. And I think that people are more likely to participate when it relates to a specific draft statement. As a python programmer, one of my community's maxims is "It's better to ask forgiveness than permission

Re: [EM] Voting reform statement; a clearer and more inspiring version

Your implication (at the bottom of your message) that our goal should be to create something that is "supported by all members" is impractical. (As we know, a consensus requirement easily leads to a dictatorship by someone "holding out" for their favorite "cause".) I agree with Jameson Quinn t

Re: [EM] Voting reform statement; a clearer and more inspiring, version

On 8/24/2011 6:39 AM, Markus Schulze wrote: ... in my opinion, the "Voting Reform Statement" endorses too many alternative election methods. Opponents will argue that this long list demonstrates that even we don't have a clue which election method should be adopted. Markus Schulze I agree it w

Re: [EM] Voting reform statement; a clearer and more inspiring version

What those considering, or later doing, Condorcet voting should consider. Fred's last principle, about participation, caught my eye. Those writing of Condorcet voting often promote formally ranking all candidates (the least liked retains its position even if the only one not formally ranke

Re: [EM] Voting reform statement; a clearer and more inspiring, version

To Ralph Suter, thank you for your extremely useful feedback! You are the kind of person who is in a position to use our declaration as (for lack of a better metaphor) ammunition in the battles against plurality voting. The fact that you like it reveals that we are on the right track. The fa

Re: [EM] Voting reform statement; a clearer and more inspiring version

Your suggestions make sense. I suggest that someone post a Google Docs version of this declaration that you and others can edit. I've already expressed my opinions about what should be said. As a clarification, the Condorcet-Kemeny method does not "use the same way to find the CW" as other C

Re: [EM] Voting reform statement; a clearer and more inspiring version

I was attempting to use your post-feedback statement as an indication of what methods to include in what I wrote, yet I am not familiar with the variations on Bucklin voting beyond what I read in Wikipedia, so I am certainly open to your suggested edits. Just as you created a version that you

Re: [EM] Voting reform statement; a clearer and more inspiring, version

Hallo, I wrote (24 Aug 2011): > In my opinion, the "Voting Reform Statement" > endorses too many alternative election methods. > Opponents will argue that this long list > demonstrates that even we don't have a clue > which election method should be adopted. Jameson Quinn wrote (24 Aug 2011):

Re: [EM] Voting reform statement; a clearer and more inspiring, version

2011/8/24 Markus Schulze > Hallo, > > I wrote (24 Aug 2011): > > > > In my opinion, the "Voting Reform Statement" > > endorses too many alternative election methods. > > Opponents will argue that this long list > > demonstrates that even we don't have a clue > > which election method should be ad

Re: [EM] Voting reform statement; a clearer and more inspiring, version

Why not agree to a shared Condorcet method definition to compete here with Range, etc. Condorct ballot has rank level (unranked is bottom, don't care if voter skips levels (only care when comparing two whether ), properly attend to CW. Have to attend to cycles, but differences here not co

Re: [EM] Voting reform statement; a clearer and more inspiring, version

On 8/24/2011 2:15 PM, Markus Schulze wrote: ... Well, one of the most frequently used arguments against Condorcet methods is that there are too many Condorcet methods and that there is no agreement on the best one. Markus Schulze Perhaps we can add a statement that says something like: "In mo

Re: [EM] Voting reform statement; a clearer and more inspiring version

Dear all, please consider including a list of endorsed election methods for proportional elections, just as you have done for single winner elections. Otherwise the bold statement will just cover one special case in election theory - single winner elections. Furthermore you might consider coverin

Re: [EM] Voting reform statement; a clearer and more inspiring version

2011/8/25 Peter Zbornik > Dear all, > > please consider including a list of endorsed election methods for > proportional elections, just as you have done for single winner elections. > Otherwise the bold statement will just cover one special case in election > theory - single winner elections. >

Re: [EM] Voting reform statement; a clearer and more inspiring version

Peter Zbornik wrote: Dear all, please consider including a list of endorsed election methods for proportional elections, just as you have done for single winner elections. Otherwise the bold statement will just cover one special case in election theory - single winner elections. Furthermor

Re: [EM] Voting reform statement; a clearer and more inspiring version

I like the idea (from Jameson Quinn) of allowing our signature-line preferences to include methods that are not mentioned in the formal statement. (I had suggested only allowing the names of methods that are formally supported.) To prevent these expressed preferences from becoming too long, I

Re: [EM] Voting reform statement; a clearer and more inspiring version

Hi, I aggree it would be good to make a separate statement for proportional election methods. Some other comments for the record: Looking at single-winner elections 1) What about multiple round single-winner methods? For instance the Brittish conservatives vote on who to eliminate each round . T

Re: [EM] Voting reform statement; a clearer and more inspiring version

Here are additional paragraphs we can add to the declaration to further resolve the criticism from Markus Schulze that there are "too many ... methods": "To appreciate the importance of the few election methods we support, consider that there are hundreds of other election methods and voting

Re: [EM] Voting reform statement; a clearer and more inspiring version

On Aug 25, 2011, at 2:29 PM, Peter Zbornik wrote: Hi, I aggree it would be good to make a separate statement for proportional election methods. Agreed. Need something brief here that some of us promote such for such as legislatures and are working on a separate effort for this. Some ot

Re: [EM] Voting reform statement; a clearer and more inspiring version

Good Afternoon, Jameson I understand the point you make, even if I don't see it as a good idea for those seeking to define rational concepts. While the technology of communication has advanced over time, its effectiveness has lagged because the modes of communication, whether printed or broad

Re: [EM] Voting reform statement; a clearer and more inspiring version

Good Afternoon, Richard re: "Your implication (at the bottom of your message) that our goal should be to create something that is 'supported by all members' ..." I apologize for giving you that impression; it was not my intent. What I was suggesting was that it might be a good idea to

Re: [EM] Voting reform statement; a clearer and more inspiring version

Here are some additional paragraphs that can be added to our declaration. I've written them to cover some important concepts that are currently not explained. --- begin new paragraphs -- "Roberts Rules of Order contain rules about voting, so any organization that has f

Re: [EM] Voting reform statement; a clearer and more inspiring version

I question adding this collection of paragraphs to the major declaration, which seems more aimed at improving public elections. On Aug 28, 2011, at 2:22 AM, Richard Fobes wrote: Here are some additional paragraphs that can be added to our declaration. I've written them to cover some importan

Re: [EM] Voting reform statement; a clearer and more inspiring version

Even if improving public elections is the statement's primary aim, that needn't be its only aim -- nor, I'm convinced, should it be. One point I've tried to make is that one of the best practical means for improving the prospects for reforming difficult-to-change public elections would be to p

Re: [EM] Voting reform statement; a clearer and more inspiring version

I'll try to find a balance. I too recognize the importance of starting by educating voters through non-governmental elections -- so that later it will be much easier to get fairer election methods adopted in governmental elections. Yet I was wondering if maybe this explanation about Roberts R

Re: [EM] Voting reform statement; a clearer and more inspiring version

Please do your work on the google doc. If you understand how, please post the changes here when you're done (to help involve others in the discussion). JQ 2011/8/28 Richard Fobes > I'll try to find a

Re: [EM] Voting reform statement; a clearer and more inspiring version

Good Afternoon, Mr. Suter You made excellent points with brevity and clarity. Thank you, Fred Gohlke Election-Methods mailing list - see http://electorama.com/em for list info

Re: [EM] Voting reform statement; a clearer and more inspiring version

The latest changes to the voting reform consensus statement(copied from file:revision history. Changes show as green, apologies to those with text-only mail clients which won't show the difference

Re: [EM] Voting reform statement; a clearer and more inspiring version

I have made some further changes to the statement, mostly to clarify the advantages and to speak of how this issue spans the political spectrum; you may see them by looking at the doc. Currently, I think

Re: [EM] Voting reform statement; a clearer and more inspiring version

I did not see this message until after I had added the names of the Wikipedia articles. If we really are trying to get people to use our supported election methods then we cannot send them to academic journals or even general-audience books because the expected convention is to find informati