[EM] Proportional election method needed for the Czech Green party - Council elections

Hi, I am a member of the Czech Green party, and we are giving our statutes an overhaul. We are a small parliamentary party with only some 2000 members. Lately we have had quite some problems infighting due to the winner-takes-it-all election methods used within the party. I am sitting in the worki

[EM] Proportional election method needed for the Czech Green party - Council elections

(Second try. It seems that the first message didn't get through.) Here are some comments to multiple mails in this stream. On Apr 27, 2010, at 2:45 AM, I wrote: Draft of a method: - collect ranked votes - use Condorcet to determine P (Condorcet tends to elect a compromise candidate that

[EM] Proportional election method needed for the Czech Green party - Council elections

Three slot Bucklin is also known as MCA (Majority Choice Approval): if no alternative is "preferred" on more than fifty percent of the ballots, then the approval cutoff is lowered to include the middle slot. Compare this with three slot WMA (Weighted Median Approval) based on the same ballots: (1

[EM] Proportional election method needed for the Czech Green party - Council elections

Peter, Thanks for your comments. I'll address them inline. On 7/22/64 2:59 PM, Peter Zbornik wrote: > Dear Andrew Myers, > > this method looks interesting, as it is proportional, Condorcet and non > STV-like. > You write on your web-page, that: "the correctness of the algorithm > depends on a cu

Re: [EM] Proportional election method needed for the Czech Green party - Council elections

Peter Zbornik wrote: Hi, I am a member of the Czech Green party, and we are giving our statutes an overhaul. We are a small parliamentary party with only some 2000 members. Lately we have had quite some problems infighting due to the winner-takes-it-all election methods used within the party. I

Re: [EM] Proportional election method needed for the Czech Green party - Council elections

On Apr 25, 2010, at 11:24 PM, Peter Zbornik wrote: Hi, I am a member of the Czech Green party, and we are giving our statutes an overhaul. We are a small parliamentary party with only some 2000 members. Lately we have had quite some problems infighting due to the winner-takes-it-all election me

Re: [EM] Proportional election method needed for the Czech Green party - Council elections

At 04:24 PM 4/25/2010, Peter Zbornik wrote: Hi, I am a member of the Czech Green party, and we are giving our statutes an overhaul. We are a small parliamentary party with only some 2000 members. Lately we have had quite some problems infighting due to the winner-takes-it-all election methods us

Re: [EM] Proportional election method needed for the Czech Green party - Council elections

Two questions, before I respond more fully: 1. 2010/4/25 Peter Zbornik > (v) asset voting is excluded due to lack of political support > Can you clarify? Is the problem with vote secrecy of the "lower" delegates, and/or with the "back room" process among the "higher" delegates (that is, the ca

Re: [EM] Proportional election method needed for the Czech Green party - Council elections

Peter Zbornik wrote: Hi Kristoffer, The election methods you proposed are a great help. Just one clarification in order to avoid misunderstandings: The president and the vice presidents are all members of the board, i.e. you have X board members out of which one is the president, vice preside

Re: [EM] Proportional election method needed for the Czech Green party - Council elections

Hi Jameson, answers in the text. On Mon, Apr 26, 2010 at 6:58 PM, Jameson Quinn wrote: > Two questions, before I respond more fully: > > 1. > > 2010/4/25 Peter Zbornik > > (v) asset voting is excluded due to lack of political support >> > > Can you clarify? Is the problem with vote secrecy of t

Re: [EM] Proportional election method needed for the Czech Green party - Council elections

On 7/22/64 2:59 PM, Peter Zbornik wrote: On Mon, Apr 26, 2010 at 4:20 PM, Abd ul-Rahman Lomax mailto:a...@lomaxdesign.com>> wrote: At 04:24 PM 4/25/2010, Peter Zbornik wrote: Hi, I am a member of the Czech Green party, and we are giving our statutes an ove

Re: [EM] Proportional election method needed for the Czech Green party - Council elections

On Sun, Apr 25, 2010 at 9:24 PM, Peter Zbornik wrote: > DELIVERABLES FOR IMPLEMENTATION: > In the end, if proportional elections are to make their way into the > party statutesm, then I have to deliver the following: > 1. a proposal of a text to the statutes, describing the election rules > and pr

Re: [EM] Proportional election method needed for the Czech Green party - Council elections

On Mon, Apr 26, 2010 at 7:50 PM, Peter Zbornik wrote: > Yes that is indeed the problem - it allows for bribery and blackmailing. > The secret ballot was introduced together with the equal voting right in > many states of Europe, including the Czech Republic. > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secret_b

Re: [EM] Proportional election method needed for the Czech Green party - Council elections

I think there are good and well tested single-winner and proportional multi-winner methods that the Czech Green party could use (like Condorcet methods and STV). For the election of president (P) and vice- presidents (VP) there maybe are no good existing solutions (see requirements below), s

Re: [EM] Proportional election method needed for the Czech Green party - Council elections

At 02:50 PM 4/26/2010, Peter Zbornik wrote: Hi Jameson, answers in the text. On Mon, Apr 26, 2010 at 6:58 PM, Jameson Quinn <jameson.qu...@gmail.com> wrote: Two questions, before I respond more fully: 1. 2010/4/25 Peter Zbornik <pzb

Re: [EM] Proportional election method needed for the Czech Green party - Council elections

On Apr 26, 2010, at 4:45 PM, Juho wrote: > Draft of a method: > > - collect ranked votes > - use Condorcet to determine P (Condorcet tends to elect a compromise > candidate that all voters find reasonably good) > - use STV (using the same ballots) to elect the group of P and VPs (some > special

Re: [EM] Proportional election method needed for the Czech Green party - Council elections

One more thing. If needed, the method could allow nominating only some subset of all the candidates as candidates for the P and VP positions. Juho On Apr 27, 2010, at 2:45 AM, Juho wrote: I think there are good and well tested single-winner and proportional multi-winner methods that the C

Re: [EM] Proportional election method needed for the Czech Green party - Council elections

On Apr 27, 2010, at 3:01 AM, Jonathan Lundell wrote: On Apr 26, 2010, at 4:45 PM, Juho wrote: Draft of a method: - collect ranked votes - use Condorcet to determine P (Condorcet tends to elect a compromise candidate that all voters find reasonably good) - use STV (using the same ballots) to

Re: [EM] Proportional election method needed for the Czech Green party - Council elections

On Apr 26, 2010, at 5:18 PM, Juho wrote: > On Apr 27, 2010, at 3:01 AM, Jonathan Lundell wrote: > >> On Apr 26, 2010, at 4:45 PM, Juho wrote: >> >>> Draft of a method: >>> >>> - collect ranked votes >>> - use Condorcet to determine P (Condorcet tends to elect a compromise >>> candidate that al

Re: [EM] Proportional election method needed for the Czech Green party - Council elections

On Apr 27, 2010, at 3:22 AM, Jonathan Lundell wrote: On Apr 26, 2010, at 5:18 PM, Juho wrote: On Apr 27, 2010, at 3:01 AM, Jonathan Lundell wrote: On Apr 26, 2010, at 4:45 PM, Juho wrote: Draft of a method: - collect ranked votes - use Condorcet to determine P (Condorcet tends to elect a

Re: [EM] Proportional election method needed for the Czech Green party - Council elections

At 03:39 PM 4/26/2010, Peter Zbornik wrote: The best PR system in terms of producing decent factional representation is STV-PR, and others can explain how to do it. There are programs that exist. But with 400 ballots, counting ballots is trivial. Has it occurred to you to wonder why, with 2000

Re: [EM] Proportional election method needed for the Czech Green party - Council elections

At 03:50 PM 4/26/2010, Andrew Myers wrote: I'll be surprised if a version of asset voting is appealing to these folks. To me, asset voting has always sounded very similar to Soviet "democracy". This is downright weird. A multistage process with a hierarchy of voters creates rich opportunit

Re: [EM] Proportional election method needed for the Czech Green party - Council elections

On Apr 26, 2010, at 5:54 PM, Juho wrote: > On Apr 27, 2010, at 3:22 AM, Jonathan Lundell wrote: > >> On Apr 26, 2010, at 5:18 PM, Juho wrote: >> >>> On Apr 27, 2010, at 3:01 AM, Jonathan Lundell wrote: >>> On Apr 26, 2010, at 4:45 PM, Juho wrote: > Draft of a method: > >

Re: [EM] Proportional election method needed for the Czech Green party - Council elections

On 7/22/64 2:59 PM, Abd ul-Rahman Lomax wrote: Asset doesn't resemble what the Soviets had in the least There is no "party" control, parties become unnecessary with Asset. Abd, The phrase "parties become unnecessary" is redolent of utopian idealism. Parties will exist. Or do you think some

Re: [EM] Proportional election method needed for the Czech Green party - Council elections

2010/4/26 Juho > > Draft of a method: > > - collect ranked votes > - use Condorcet to determine P (Condorcet tends to elect a compromise > candidate that all voters find reasonably good) > - use STV (using the same ballots) to elect the group of P and VPs (some > special rules are needed to guara

Re: [EM] Proportional election method needed for the Czech Green party - Council elections

Juho, the requirements are correct, except that several elections is not a big problem. Thus I do not require, that "board, P and VP elections will take place at the same time (=> one can use the same ballots in all these elections)", it would be nice to have, though. I have to study your proposal

Re: [EM] Proportional election method needed for the Czech Green party - Council elections

Hi, I would prefer to have the P. elected by the same people electing the board. The P. is indeed the person most often representing the party on the outside. Peter On Tue, Apr 27, 2010 at 4:02 AM, Jonathan Lundell wrote: > On Apr 26, 2010, at 5:54 PM, Juho wrote: > > > On Apr 27, 2010, at 3:2

Re: [EM] Proportional election method needed for the Czech Green party - Council elections

On Tue, Apr 27, 2010 at 1:54 AM, Juho wrote: > A fully separate P election would make the board less proportional - unless > the elected P would have voting power only if he/she is already a member of > the board. I think if there are a reasonable number of members, then the non-proportionality w

Re: [EM] Proportional election method needed for the Czech Green party - Council elections

On Tue, Apr 27, 2010 at 7:19 AM, Jameson Quinn wrote: > Why not: > - ranked votes > - STV for council. Keep track of which members are elected first and second, > one of them will be VP. > - Condorcet winner among the councilmembers is P. (You could use original > ballots or have the council revot

Re: [EM] Proportional election method needed for the Czech Green party - Council elections

2010/4/27 Raph Frank > On Tue, Apr 27, 2010 at 7:19 AM, Jameson Quinn > wrote: > > Why not: > > - ranked votes > > - STV for council. Keep track of which members are elected first and > second, > > one of them will be VP. > > - Condorcet winner among the councilmembers is P. (You could use origi

Re: [EM] Proportional election method needed for the Czech Green party - Council elections

On Apr 27, 2010, at 6:09 AM, Jameson Quinn wrote: > 2010/4/27 Raph Frank > On Tue, Apr 27, 2010 at 7:19 AM, Jameson Quinn > wrote: > > Why not: > > - ranked votes > > - STV for council. Keep track of which members are elected first and second, > > one of them will be VP. > > - Condorcet winner

Re: [EM] Proportional election method needed for the Czech Green party - Council elections

On Tue, Apr 27, 2010 at 2:09 PM, Jameson Quinn wrote: > Why? The principle on which PR is based is that all seats are equal. > Actually, it could be "first seat", or "plurality winner", which is mostly > equivalent. It could also have some strategic effects, where people decide to rank their fa

Re: [EM] Proportional election method needed for the Czech Green party - Council elections

At 10:36 PM 4/26/2010, Andrew Myers wrote: On 7/22/64 2:59 PM, Abd ul-Rahman Lomax wrote: Asset doesn't resemble what the Soviets had in the least There is no "party" control, parties become unnecessary with Asset. Abd, The phrase "parties become unnecessary" is redolent of utopian idealis

Re: [EM] Proportional election method needed for the Czech Green party - Council elections

At 04:36 AM 4/27/2010, Peter Zbornik wrote: Hi, I would prefer to have the P. elected by the same people electing the board. The P. is indeed the person most often representing the party on the outside. Okay, structural defect. The president is normally the presiding officer of the board

Re: [EM] Proportional election method needed for the Czech Green party - Council elections

On Wed, Apr 28, 2010 at 4:47 AM, Juho wrote: > You assume that there is only one VP. Well, if more than 1 VP is possible, then the election could be - Elect council with PR-STV - The condorcet winner (only including the councillors) is President - Elect 2 of the councilors as VPs using PR-STV H

Re: [EM] Proportional election method needed for the Czech Green party - Council elections

On Apr 28, 2010, at 7:34 AM, Raph Frank wrote: > On Wed, Apr 28, 2010 at 4:47 AM, Juho wrote: >> You assume that there is only one VP. > > Well, if more than 1 VP is possible, then the election could be > > - Elect council with PR-STV > - The condorcet winner (only including the councillors) is

Re: [EM] Proportional election method needed for the Czech Green party - Council elections

On Apr 28, 2010, at 5:34 PM, Raph Frank wrote: On Wed, Apr 28, 2010 at 4:47 AM, Juho wrote: You assume that there is only one VP. Well, if more than 1 VP is possible, then the election could be - Elect council with PR-STV - The condorcet winner (only including the councillors) is President

Re: [EM] Proportional election method needed for the Czech Green party - Council elections

On Wed, Apr 28, 2010 at 4:05 PM, Juho wrote: > Do you mean that voters would concentrate on the first rankings and > strongest candidates? The used method should be such that this kind of > behaviour will not be rational. Yes. If the order of election matters, then your first rank is effectively

Re: [EM] Proportional election method needed for the Czech Green party - Council elections

2010/4/28 Raph Frank > On Wed, Apr 28, 2010 at 4:05 PM, Juho wrote: > > Do you mean that voters would concentrate on the first rankings and > > strongest candidates? The used method should be such that this kind of > > behaviour will not be rational. > > Yes. If the order of election matters, t

Re: [EM] Proportional election method needed for the Czech Green party - Council elections

On Apr 28, 2010, at 8:37 AM, Jameson Quinn wrote: > 2010/4/28 Raph Frank > On Wed, Apr 28, 2010 at 4:05 PM, Juho wrote: > > Do you mean that voters would concentrate on the first rankings and > > strongest candidates? The used method should be such that this kind of > > behaviour will not be rat

Re: [EM] Proportional election method needed for the Czech Green party - Council elections

At 11:37 AM 4/28/2010, Jameson Quinn wrote: 2010/4/28 Raph Frank <raph...@gmail.com> On Wed, Apr 28, 2010 at 4:05 PM, Juho <juho4...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote: > Do you mean that voters would concentrate on the first rankings and > strongest can

Re: [EM] Proportional election method needed for the Czech Green party - Council elections

Hello, I have some catching up to do here. I need to think more about some of the different methods and the proposals I have gotten. Some of the methods are new to me. As I am a layman it takes time to understand them. Condorcet methods have not been used in politics yet, I think. Are there by an

Re: [EM] Proportional election method needed for the Czech Green party - Council elections

On Wed, Apr 28, 2010 at 4:52 PM, Jonathan Lundell wrote: > This is, I think, a decent general solution to ordering a set of STV > winners: re-count, with only the current winners eligible, for successively > smaller numbers of seats. Yeah, it is reasonable. The fundamental problem is that if you

Re: [EM] Proportional election method needed for the Czech Green party - Council elections

On Wed, Apr 28, 2010 at 7:19 PM, Peter Zbornik wrote: > Condorcet methods have not been used in politics yet, I think. Not sure if they have been used in politics. However, they have been used by various open source organisations. Schulze's method seems reasonably popular. > Are there by any c

Re: [EM] Proportional election method needed for the Czech Green party - Council elections

On Apr 28, 2010, at 2:19 PM, Peter Zbornik wrote: Condorcet methods have not been used in politics yet, I think. Condorcet has not yet been used in a *government* general election. that does not mean it hasn't been used in politics. it has been used in organization elections for a singl

Re: [EM] Proportional election method needed for the Czech Green party - Council elections

On Apr 28, 2010, at 11:29 AM, Raph Frank wrote: > On Wed, Apr 28, 2010 at 4:52 PM, Jonathan Lundell wrote: >> This is, I think, a decent general solution to ordering a set of STV >> winners: re-count, with only the current winners eligible, for successively >> smaller numbers of seats. > > Yeah,

Re: [EM] Proportional election method needed for the Czech Green party - Council elections

OK, thanks. Please go on to propose the condorcet, if you think it is the best. Approval voting was used in the French presidential election, first round, where far-right nationalist Le Pen got to the second round. Le Pen was hardly a centrist. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Approval_voting#Effe

Re: [EM] Proportional election method needed for the Czech Green party - Council elections

Peter Zbornik wrote: Hello, I have some catching up to do here. I need to think more about some of the different methods and the proposals I have gotten. Some of the methods are new to me. As I am a layman it takes time to understand them. Condorcet methods have not been used in politics ye

Re: [EM] Proportional election method needed for the Czech Green party - Council elections

On Wed, Apr 28, 2010 at 9:00 PM, Peter Zbornik wrote: > Approval voting was used in the French presidential election, first round, > where far-right nationalist Le Pen got to the second round. > Le Pen was hardly a centrist. > See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Approval_voting#Effect_on_elections N

Re: [EM] Proportional election method needed for the Czech Green party - Council elections

2010/4/28 Peter Zbornik > OK, thanks. > Please go on to propose the condorcet, if you think it is the best. > > Approval voting was used in the French presidential election, first round, > where far-right nationalist Le Pen got to the second round. > Le Pen was hardly a centrist. > See http://en.

Re: [EM] Proportional election method needed for the Czech Green party - Council elections

On Apr 28, 2010, at 6:37 PM, Jameson Quinn wrote: 2010/4/28 Raph Frank On Wed, Apr 28, 2010 at 4:05 PM, Juho wrote: > Do you mean that voters would concentrate on the first rankings and > strongest candidates? The used method should be such that this kind of > behaviour will not be rational

Re: [EM] Proportional election method needed for the Czech Green party - Council elections

On Apr 28, 2010, at 5:26 PM, Jameson Quinn wrote: 2010/4/28 Peter Zbornik OK, thanks. Please go on to propose the condorcet, if you think it is the best. Approval voting was used in the French presidential election, first round, where far-right nationalist Le Pen got to the second round. Le

Re: [EM] Proportional election method needed for the Czech Green party - Council elections

At 05:26 PM 4/28/2010, Jameson Quinn wrote: 2010/4/28 Peter Zbornik <pzbor...@gmail.com> OK, thanks. Please go on to propose the condorcet, if you think it is the best. Approval voting was used in the French presidential election, first round, where far-right nation

Re: [EM] Proportional election method needed for the Czech Green party - Council elections

On Apr 28, 2010, at 9:19 PM, Peter Zbornik wrote: Hello, I have some catching up to do here. I need to think more about some of the different methods and the proposals I have gotten. Some of the methods are new to me. As I am a layman it takes time to understand them. Condorcet methods have

Re: [EM] Proportional election method needed for the Czech Green party - Council elections

Ok, thanks. Yes, my misstake. Peter On Wed, Apr 28, 2010 at 11:26 PM, Jameson Quinn wrote: > > > 2010/4/28 Peter Zbornik > > OK, thanks. >> Please go on to propose the condorcet, if you think it is the best. >> >> Approval voting was used in the French presidential election, first round, >> wh

Re: [EM] Proportional election method needed for the Czech Green party - Council elections

On Thu, Apr 29, 2010 at 2:45 AM, Juho wrote: > On Apr 28, 2010, at 9:19 PM, Peter Zbornik wrote: > > Hello, > > I have some catching up to do here. > I need to think more about some of the different methods and the proposals > I have gotten. > Some of the methods are new to me. > As I am a lay

Re: [EM] Proportional election method needed for the Czech Green party - Council elections

2010/4/28 Juho > On Apr 28, 2010, at 9:19 PM, Peter Zbornik wrote: > > Hello, > > I have some catching up to do here. > I need to think more about some of the different methods and the proposals > I have gotten. > Some of the methods are new to me. > As I am a layman it takes time to understand t

Re: [EM] Proportional election method needed for the Czech Green party - Council elections

At 08:59 AM 4/29/2010, Jameson Quinn wrote: [quoting Juho] One problem with Approval (that was not mentioned yet) is the limited expressive power of the Approval vote and resulting problems in choosing the right strategy, e.g. when there are three leading candidates and one should approve eithe

Re: [EM] Proportional election method needed for the Czech Green party - Council elections

> One device that is used by Borda Count, which is a related method, is to > have as many ranks as candidates. While I generally favor this (it allows > voters to use their ability to compare preferences to generate a rank > order), it may be collecting noise, if there are a lot of candidates. My >

Re: [EM] Proportional election method needed for the Czech Green party - Council elections

At 01:07 PM 4/29/2010, Jameson Quinn wrote: One device that is used by Borda Count, which is a related method, is to have as many ranks as candidates. While I generally favor this (it allows voters to use their ability to compare preferences to generate a rank order), it may be collecting nois

Re: [EM] Proportional election method needed for the Czech Green party - Council elections

2010/4/29 Abd ul-Rahman Lomax > At 01:07 PM 4/29/2010, Jameson Quinn wrote: > > One device that is used by Borda Count, which is a related method, is to >> have as many ranks as candidates. While I generally favor this (it allows >> voters to use their ability to compare preferences to generate

Re: [EM] Proportional election method needed for the Czech Green party - Council elections

Dear all, if the single-winner president or the proportionally elected VPs sometimes are not a member of the set of proportionally elected council members (which is likely), then I would also like to ask you for a proposal on the last "conservative" method, thus it would not be optional, as I wrot

Re: [EM] Proportional election method needed for the Czech Green party - Council elections

Dear all, I am sending a post scriptum to the email below. 1. The conservative method is only interesting if, the unambiguously pre-elected president and vice president(s) are not in the set of proportionally (for instance STV) elected council members. 2. If the unambiguously elected president an

Re: [EM] Proportional election method needed for the Czech Green party - Council elections

Dear Peter Zbornik, > Is the winner of a single-winner Schulze election always > in the set of winners of a Schulze-STV election, if the > same ballots are used for both elections? If more than one seat has to be filled, then the winner of the Schulze single-winner election method is not necessar

Re: [EM] Proportional election method needed for the Czech Green party - Council elections

On May 3, 2010, at 3:51 AM, Peter Zbornik wrote: Dear all, if the single-winner president or the proportionally elected VPs sometimes are not a member of the set of proportionally elected council members (which is likely), Possible but maybe not very common. then I would also like to ask yo

Re: [EM] Proportional election method needed for the Czech Green party - Council elections

Dear Markus Schulze, thank you for your reply. Why do you recommend the first vice-president to be elected as the second ranked of Schulze single-winner method and not the second ranked using the Schulze proportional ranking method? Do you have a strong oppinion in this issue? What is the differen

Re: [EM] Proportional election method needed for the Czech Green party - Council elections

On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 10:52 AM, Markus Schulze wrote: > I recommend: > > --the president is the top-ranked candidate of the Schulze >  single-winner ranking, > --the vice president is the second-ranked candidate of the >  Schulze single-winner ranking, > --the other members of the council are cho

Re: [EM] Proportional election method needed for the Czech Green party - Council elections

Dear Raph Frank, you wrote (3 May 2010): > For the rest of the council, I think electing > them using Schulze-STV with the restriction > that only results where the President and VP > are members are allowed would give better > proportionality. If I understand Peter Zbornik correctly, then he wa

Re: [EM] Proportional election method needed for the Czech Green party - Council elections

On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 1:00 PM, Markus Schulze < markus.schu...@alumni.tu-berlin.de> wrote: > Dear Raph Frank, > > you wrote (3 May 2010): > > > For the rest of the council, I think electing > > them using Schulze-STV with the restriction > > that only results where the President and VP > > are me

Re: [EM] Proportional election method needed for the Czech Green party - Council elections

2010/5/3 Juho : > (What I mean by "distorting effect" is that if you have left, centre and > right, and centre has less first place support than the other two, then a > good approach may be to elect C if one elects only one representative. But > if one elects two then one could pick L and R (to be

Re: [EM] Proportional election method needed for the Czech Green party - Council elections

On May 3, 2010, at 2:07 PM, Raph Frank wrote: 2010/5/3 Juho : (What I mean by "distorting effect" is that if you have left, centre and right, and centre has less first place support than the other two, then a good approach may be to elect C if one elects only one representative. But if one

Re: [EM] Proportional election method needed for the Czech Green party - Council elections

On May 3, 2010, at 2:07 PM, Peter Zbornik wrote: On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 1:00 PM, Markus Schulze > wrote: Dear Raph Frank, you wrote (3 May 2010): > For the rest of the council, I think electing > them using Schulze-STV with the restriction > that only results where the President and VP > are m

Re: [EM] Proportional election method needed for the Czech Green party - Council elections

Peter Zbornik wrote: Dear all, I am sending a post scriptum to the email below. 1. The conservative method is only interesting if, the unambiguously pre-elected president and vice president(s) are not in the set of proportionally (for instance STV) elected council members. 2. If the unambig

Re: [EM] Proportional election method needed for the Czech Green party - Council elections

On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 10:16 PM, Kristofer Munsterhjelm < km-el...@broadpark.no> wrote: > Peter Zbornik wrote: > >> Dear all, >> I am sending a post scriptum to the email below. >> 1. The conservative method is only interesting if, the unambiguously >> pre-elected president and vice president(s)

Re: [EM] Proportional election method needed for the Czech Green party - Council elections

On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 2:43 PM, Juho wrote: > On May 3, 2010, at 2:07 PM, Peter Zbornik wrote: > > On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 1:00 PM, Markus Schulze < > markus.schu...@alumni.tu-berlin.de> wrote: > >> Dear Raph Frank, >> >> you wrote (3 May 2010): >> >> > For the rest of the council, I think elec

Re: [EM] Proportional election method needed for the Czech Green party - Council elections

Dear Peter Zbornik, this is my proposal: --Use the Schulze proportional ranking method. --The top-ranked candidate becomes the president. --The second-ranked candidate becomes the vice president. --If the first two candidates happen to be male, then, when you calculate the third-ranked candi

Re: [EM] Proportional election method needed for the Czech Green party - Council elections

On May 4, 2010, at 3:19 PM, Peter Zbornik wrote: Dear Juho, just some words to avoid misunderstandings. I still would like to be able to propose an alternative method, which elects the council first and then the P and VPs, even though the condorcet winner is not in there (marked as the "opt

Re: [EM] Proportional election method needed for the Czech Green party - Council elections

This is a good approach in the category of simple (only one method used) proportional ranking based methods. Use of proportional ranking reduces the proportionality of the council and the set of n presidents a bit but not much. The election of the president can be seen to happen before the

Re: [EM] Proportional election method needed for the Czech Green party - Council elections

If you are looking for a proportional Condorcet method, I will also recommend the proportional election method that I developed. It is not STV-like, but it achieves proportionality when there are blocs of voters. It has the added advantage that it is already built into a running Internet voting

Re: [EM] Proportional election method needed for the Czech Green party - Council elections

On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 8:12 AM, Peter Zbornik wrote: > I am affraid that this is not possible. First we have mostly odd-numbered > council sizes, and secondly the gender rule does not require that half of > the men should be men and the other half women. > Our current gender rule goes as following

Re: [EM] Proportional election method needed for the Czech Green party - Council elections

Some more comments on how the male/female requirements could be handled. In the description of Markus Schulze (see below) there were two steps where the male/female proportionality was handled. That approach works if there are separate requirements for the set of three first (vice)president

Re: [EM] Proportional election method needed for the Czech Green party - Council elections

On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 12:08 AM, Juho wrote: > (I note that Raph Frank proposed also an approach where the election of the > last representative would be free of these sex related requirements. That is > one way of relieving the proportionality related problems since at least the > last choice tha

Re: [EM] Proportional election method needed for the Czech Green party - Council elections

Raph Frank wrote: On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 12:08 AM, Juho wrote: (I note that Raph Frank proposed also an approach where the election of the last representative would be free of these sex related requirements. That is one way of relieving the proportionality related problems since at least the la

Re: [EM] Proportional election method needed for the Czech Green party - Council elections

Dear Juho, I wrote (4 May 2010): > This is my proposal: > > --Use the Schulze proportional ranking method. > > --The top-ranked candidate becomes the president. > > --The second-ranked candidate becomes the vice president. > > --If the first two candidates happen to be male, then, > when you ca

Re: [EM] Proportional election method needed for the Czech Green party - Council elections

On May 5, 2010, at 1:36 PM, Markus Schulze wrote: Dear Juho, I wrote (4 May 2010): This is my proposal: --Use the Schulze proportional ranking method. --The top-ranked candidate becomes the president. --The second-ranked candidate becomes the vice president. --If the first two candidates

Re: [EM] Proportional election method needed for the Czech Green party - Council elections

Dear Markus Schulze, thank you for your proposal. It seems that your method is the one, which fulfills the requirements I set up for the Green party council elections the closest at the moment. Its drawbacks is however, that it is a new, complex method with only limited testing on data an no usage

Re: [EM] Proportional election method needed for the Czech Green party - Council elections

On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 9:19 PM, Peter Zbornik wrote: > What is the advantages of Schulze proportional ranking to the simpler top > down STV modified method described in > http://www.votingmatters.org.uk/ISSUE9/P5.HTM? The first problem with this one is that it will elect the President is the IRV

Re: [EM] Proportional election method needed for the Czech Green party - Council elections

Peter Z., Ralph wrote "The first problem with this one is that it will elect the President is the IRV winner. This gets you a non-centerist President. Even if you use this proposal, I would strongly recommend electing the President with a condorcet compliant method for the first ranking positi

Re: [EM] Proportional election method needed for the Czech Green party - Council elections

"a Condorcet winner can be a candidate that has the fewest first preferences." True in Condorcet, though not expected to happen often. Compared with each other candidate, the CW must win in each such pair. Each such can have first preference over the CW as seen by SOME voters. IRV, look

Re: [EM] Proportional election method needed for the Czech Green party - Council elections

Dear Peter Zbornik, in the scientific literature, candidates, who have not yet been elected, are sometimes called "hopeful". *** The Schulze proportional ranking method can be described as follows: Suppose place 1 to (n-1) have already been filled. Suppose A(i) (wi

Re: [EM] Proportional election method needed for the Czech Green party - Council elections

Dear Markus Schulze, dear readers, The example below is intriguing. But I am afraid I fail to understand this formulation of Schulze's proportional ranking. I would be grateful if M. Schulze or someone else, could give an example, which could help me get it. Specifically, I didn't understand what

Re: [EM] Proportional election method needed for the Czech Green party - Council elections

Dear Peter Zbornik, I wrote (6 May 2010): > The Schulze proportional ranking method can be > described as follows: > >Suppose place 1 to (n-1) have already been >filled. Suppose A(i) (with i = 1,...,(n-1)) >is the candidate of place i. > >Suppose we want to fill the n-th place. >

Re: [EM] Proportional election method needed for the Czech Green party - Council elections

2010/5/6 Peter Zbornik : > Dear Markus Schulze, dear readers, > > The example below is intriguing. But I am afraid I fail to understand > this formulation of Schulze's proportional ranking. > I would be grateful if M. Schulze or someone else, could give an > example, which could help me get it. > S

Re: [EM] Proportional election method needed for the Czech Green party - Council elections

Dear Markus Schulze, I think got the idea of the Schulze proportional method after your definition and Raph Frank's explanation and example. I am however not sure that the Schulze proportional method "satisfies the proportionality criterion for the top-down approach to create party lists". You w

Re: [EM] Proportional election method needed for the Czech Green party - Council elections

Dear Peter Zbornik, the fact, that the Schulze single-winner election method satisfies the majority criterion, is a direct consequence of the fact that every pairwise victory is stronger than every pairwise defeat. Similarly, the fact, that the Schulze proportional ranking method satisfies the pr

Re: [EM] Proportional election method needed for the Czech Green party - Council elections

Based on my best understanding of the requirements here is an exact but partial definition of the ideal method, with the assumption that all votes are sincere. V1 = set of ranked ballots that indicate who would be the best president / vice presidents V2 = set of ranked ballots that indicate

Re: [EM] Proportional election method needed for the Czech Green party - Council elections

Dear Juho, thanks for taking the time to formalize the requirements and the discussion so far. I would like to put some ideas into the ether, which extend the approach of Schulze in some directions. It is worth emphasizing that I presently do not in any way recommend any of the approaches below be

Re: [EM] Proportional election method needed for the Czech Green party - Council elections

Dear Juho, I attach a post scriptum to my email below (7.5.2010). I wrote: "The "unified" method for two seats without boundary conditions would select BA (i.e.Schulze STV) Under the boundary condition A>B (A is elected before B) the same "unified" method would select AC otherwise (i.e. Schulze p

Re: [EM] Proportional election method needed for the Czech Green party - Council elections

Dear Juho, I couldn't resist submitting a post post sciptum to my email below (7.5.2010): Example of the unified method: Assume we have the boundary conditions [Pa, Pb]>VPa>VPb>[Ma, Mb, Mc], then the Schulze "unified" proportional method would work like this: Step 1: apply Schulze STV to elect P

Re: [EM] Proportional election method needed for the Czech Green party - Council elections

On Fri, May 7, 2010 at 4:27 PM, Peter Zbornik wrote: > The proportional ranking needed is not P>VPa>VPb>Ma>Mb>Mc>Md, > but P>[VPa, VPb]>[Ma, Mb, Mc, Md]. > Let us call this required ranking for "boundary conditions". Schulze's method can do that too. Step 1: Elect the Schulze single seat method

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