Sounds delicious! and great to throw at any wind players who gripe about
having to flutter-tongue!
ajr
On Sep 1, 2009, at 2:21 PM, arabu...@cowtown.net
arabu...@cowtown.net wrote:
Italian for flutter-tongued is frullato, without any specific
reference
to lingua.
I'm a couple weeks behind
On Sep 1, 2009, at 2:21 PM, arabu...@cowtown.net
arabu...@cowtown.net wrote:
Italian for flutter-tongued is frullato, without any specific
reference
to lingua.
I'm a couple weeks behind on this discussion. I just wanted to add
that the more familiar use of the word frullato is that
: [Finale] OT: Ophecleide
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2009 21:23:14 -0400
.
.
.
In the harpsichord revival, there were actually at least 3 stages:
Pleyel's plucked piano (this is what the harpsichord SHOULD have
been, obviously!) much too heavy to sound above a pianissimo; the
factory
On 4 Sep 2009 at 8:17, 73357.3...@compuserve.com wrote:
what about E Power Biggs' pedal harpsichord ?
What about it? Mozart owned a pedal fortepiano, so it wouldn't
surprise me if there were pedal harpsichords at the time. Biggs was a
big promoter of Flentrop, the Dutch maker of tracker
David W. Fenton wrote:
On 4 Sep 2009 at 8:17, 73357.3...@compuserve.com wrote:
what about E Power Biggs' pedal harpsichord ?
What about it? Mozart owned a pedal fortepiano, so it wouldn't
surprise me if there were pedal harpsichords at the time. Biggs was a
big promoter of Flentrop, the
On 4 Sep 2009 at 13:57, dhbailey wrote:
Certainly the start of the quoted blurb seems to indicate
that the people who put the webpage up thought it would have
been common during the Baroque.
Just Googling around, I found these tidbits:
1. Bach's estate included a pedal clavichord:
;?And while we're about it, what about E Power Biggs' pedal harpsichord ?
-- Original Message --
From: John Howell john.how...@vt.edu
To: finale@shsu.edu
Subject: Re: [Finale] OT: Ophecleide
On 4 Sep 2009 at 11:17, John Howell wrote:
I don't know what Biggs played, but I'd guess it was one of the
German factory models which were the only things available for quite
a while, and were heavily marketed to their niche market.
While googling this earlier today, I encountered a
On Sep 1, 2009, at 4:12 PM, arabu...@cowtown.net wrote:
What about corno for horn (as in the ocho cornos noted in the
orchestration of Châvez's Sinfonía de Antígona in the notes that go
along with the recording he conducted)? I know that trompa meant
horn
in Portuguese--have never heard it
On Sep 1, 2009, at 5:06 PM, Ray Horton wrote:
ophecleide players just are not out there on the streets clambering to
get in.
But see http://www.ophicleide.com/index.htm and especially the linked
http://www.ophicleide.com/articles/Weblinks.htm . There are audio files
attached to the first
At 19:21 01.09.2009 -0400, John Howell wrote:
Although they apparently do show up at the Tuba Christmases
pioneered by Bill Bell and Harvey Phillips. Possibly not of
orchestral quality, of course, at least until Juilliard hires an
ophicleide teacher!
Well, the Royal Academy of Music in
With most orchestral instruments, there is historical continuity allowing
one to readily distinguish contemporary performances which use instruments
incorporating developments from the time of composition until now (albeit
with some substantial variations, those, for example, used in Vienna,
Perhaps I should sub-title this one as Historically Informed Penderecki,
as I listen to his Fluorescences that includes such out-of-date items as
gasp a telephone bell (NOT a chirper) and a typewriter. (Not to mentions
LeRoy Anderson's famous solo piece for the latter)
ajr
At 21:21 31.08.2009 -0500, arabu...@cowtown.net wrote:
Has anyone here run across the feminized Cornetta to refer to the
3-valve cornet? I'm about to finalize a score that includes this
instrument, and I don't want it mistake for the cornetto of Moneteverdi's
time.
Cornetta is indeed the
At 20:05 31.08.2009 -0700, Dean M. Estabrook wrote:
Didn't Bobo play for either Chicago and or Philly at one time?
That's going back a bit ..
No, but if I remember correctly he did play in the Concertgebouw for
several years before he went to Los Angeles.
Howard
--
Howard Weiner
Dean M. Estabrook wrote:
FWIW, I've long been a proponent of (as an American composer) using
directions in English as much as possible. If it's been good enough for
the Italians, French, and Germans ... why not us? Let them come to us
for a change ... eh, it's just the curmudgeon bubbling
On Sep 1, 2009, at 12:19 AM, Dean M. Estabrook wrote:
FWIW, I've long been a proponent of (as an American composer)
using directions in English as much as possible. If it's been good
enough for the Italians, French, and Germans ... why not us? Let
them come to us for a change ... eh,
Not so much scrounging garbage, rather recycling your bath-towels.
Seriously though, what's wrong with louden lots? I've always found
Grainger's directions quite clear, if unconventional.
2009/9/1 Christopher Smith christopher.sm...@videotron.ca
On Sep 1, 2009, at 12:19 AM, Dean M. Estabrook
Well, we've had this discussion before, and I generally come down
more strongly on the side of convention, for the very good reason
that it is convention, so everyone understands it immediately. If I
see louden lots it will take me a minute (or even a trip to the
computer to Google it)
Yeah ... I've always found Grainger's directions a breath of fresh
air ... as innovative as his music ...
Dean
On Sep 1, 2009, at 6:24 AM, Frank Prain wrote:
Not so much scrounging garbage, rather recycling your bath-towels.
Seriously though, what's wrong with louden lots? I've always found
David .. your points are well taken, indeed. Yeah, virtually all my
music is either educational in nature or sacred, meant for American
consumption. To be honest, though, if, say, a German publishing house
contacted me and wanted to pay me big bucks to produce a score of
mine, as long as I
Christopher ... no, I certainly took no umbrage at your garbage
remark. I had never heard that story before and find it intriguing.
I love little Bio-snips about folks ... so thank you. What you had
to say in general, also makes sense. I certainly used all the typical
dynamic markings
At 5:12 AM -0400 9/1/09, dhbailey wrote:
Those who have written in French and German
terms were composers of international standing
and the music was compelling enough that people
figured out what the non-Italian terms meant and
bought the music despite their nationalistic use
of terms.
If you ever hire me to compose for you I will use whichever language(s) in
the score we agree on. In my own projects I will unapologetically follow
my own procedures.
ajr
FWIW, I've long been a proponent of (as an American composer) using
directions in English as much as possible. If it's
Thanks, Howard! I do recall now that in the score that I have for
Prokofiev's Lt. Kijè music that the cornet is labeled pistone. And, as
it turned out, the guy who played it when we did it in our community
orchestra used a D-trumpet, giving me my first exposure to the instrument.
ajr
At 21:21
We really ought to get into the habit of changing the subject line. I
imagine that more than a couple of Finale users here have been deleting
the Ophecleide messages but might wish to participate in this thread.
I would have thought that Italian terms would communicate the most, esp.
in
The D trumpet would give a smaller sound (contrasting to the C or Bb
trumpets), would make the high notes more secure, but would not give the
characteristic cornet timbre.
One popular instrument for the more exposed and difficult cornet parts
is a Cornet in C. It's often used on Prokofiev
More than fair enough
Cheers,
Dean
On Sep 1, 2009, at 9:39 AM, arabu...@cowtown.net wrote:
If you ever hire me to compose for you I will use whichever language
(s) in
the score we agree on. In my own projects I will unapologetically
follow
my own procedures.
ajr
FWIW, I've long
On Sep 1, 2009, at 10:30 AM, Christopher Smith wrote:
I suppose I take exception to Grainger's cheerful xenophobia, as one
writer put it, that is the motivator behind these unusual markings.
Not so much xenophobia as racism. He believed, as did many in his day,
that the cultural character
On Sep 1, 2009, at 12:47 PM, Ray Horton wrote:
Years ago, the Louisville Orchestra hosted a contemporary music
festival that included bringing in a number of talented players from
many countries all over, although an inordinate number were from
Spanish speaking countries. We did two
On Sep 1, 2009, at 11:58 AM, John Howell wrote:
As to internal instructions, we ran into a couple of doozies this
summer in the score to Joseph the Amazing Technicolor Dreamcoat.
One was the instruction al tallone, which is perfectly good Italian
for at the frog, but which none of us had
On Sep 1, 2009, at 5:12 AM, dhbailey wrote:
Those who have written in French and German terms were composers of
international standing and the music was compelling enough that people
figured out what the non-Italian terms meant and bought the music
despite their nationalistic use of terms.
Andrew Stiller wrote:
Just a reminder to all: In Spanish ... clavicordio means square piano.
Man! Knowing that could have saved me thousands in medical bills the
last tine I was in Mexico.
My humblest of apologies,
Raymond Horton
___
On 1 Sep 2009 at 23:24, Frank Prain wrote:
Seriously though, what's wrong with louden lots?
It's not just that it goes against standard conventions that every
trained musician already knows (molto crescendo is something everyone
understands, no?), but it's not even standard usage in its
Oh, David, please read the thread before you keep at this! If you had
then you would know, by now, that the term ophecleide came to be
attached to a valved brass instrument by 1850, so this Modern
Ophecleide is certainly in that tradition. My informed guess is that
the 1850 creature had a
What about corno for horn (as in the ocho cornos noted in the
orchestration of Châvez's Sinfonía de Antígona in the notes that go
along with the recording he conducted)? I know that trompa meant horn
in Portuguese--have never heard it used as such in Spanish.
ajr
On Sep 1, 2009, at 12:47 PM,
Hi John,
Without intending to be a jerk, I have to echo Andrew's comment. Al
tallone and flautando are bog-standard terms, and I can't imagine
any string player round here being fazed by either one.
Cheers,
- Darcy
-
djar...@earthlink.net
Brooklyn, NY
On 1 Sep 2009, at 2:54 PM,
On 1 Sep 2009 at 16:10, Ray Horton wrote:
Oh, David, please read the thread before you keep at this! If you had
then you would know, by now, that the term ophecleide came to be
attached to a valved brass instrument by 1850, so this Modern
Ophecleide is certainly in that tradition.
The
I dunno ... if it weren't for neologism, we wouldn't have any logism
at all. Every phrase we utter had to have it's first audition. A bit
of poetry (which in Grainger's case, connotes the composer's desires
easily, I think), does no harm IMO. And, as I implied earlier, it
makes me smile.
Hmm, that's a fair question - was the valved ophecleide really an
ophecleide, just because it took the name?
Your comparison is not entirely apt, since the valved ophecleide came
into use (but I don't know how much) within a couple of decades after
the keyed one, and new repertoire may
And how 'bout the French vs. the German bassons while we're at it?
ajr
who still thinks that Landowska's Bach is some of the best on record
On 1 Sep 2009 at 16:10, Ray Horton wrote:
Oh, David, please read the thread before you keep at this! If you had
then you would know, by now, that the
Italian for flutter-tongued is frullato, without any specific reference
to lingua.
ajr
Hmm .. the Italian for Flutter tongue must be something
picturesque, like, Lingua Fluterri. Sounds like something with
which an Italian Grainger might have come up.
On Sep 1, 2009, at 12:35 PM, Andrew
Could easily be mistaken for Loudun devils.
ajr
On 1 Sep 2009 at 23:24, Frank Prain wrote:
Seriously though, what's wrong with louden lots?
It's not just that it goes against standard conventions that every
trained musician already knows (molto crescendo is something everyone
understands,
Ray,
The Meucci article, which is the best available word on this subject in
regards to Italy (if Howard Weiner recommends something, it has to be
good)
I blush!
is on Jstor.If anyone else wants a copy I'll email it to you (unless
Howard would rather I
On 1 Sep 2009 at 16:20, arabu...@cowtown.net wrote:
still thinks that Landowska's Bach is some of the best on record
For her style and musicality, yes, but so is Glenn Gould's.
Neither of them played the harpsichord.
--
David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com
David Fenton
At 2:54 PM -0400 9/1/09, Andrew Stiller wrote:
These are both absolutely standard terms in classical music, and any
professional string player in that repertoire should know them.
Certainly composers do!
All I can say to that is that our players are community musicians,
and that the books
So what do you call the instrument that Landowska played? A Wandsichord,
perhaps?
And as far as Gould goes, it would be great to here a performance as
insightful as his program notes.
ajr
with no doubt as to where he stands on the Glenn Gould controversy
On 1 Sep 2009 at 16:20,
At 5:06 PM -0400 9/1/09, Ray Horton wrote:
Your comparison is not entirely apt, since the valved ophecleide
came into use (but I don't know how much) within a couple of decades
after the keyed one, and new repertoire may have been written with
the second instrument in mind..These
arabu...@cowtown.net wrote:
...
ajr
who still thinks that Landowska's Bach is some of the best on record
I suppose the point, about Landowska's metal harpsichord, is that it was at least heard before it is judged.
I am sure there are some real differences in piano construction between
My one performance foul-up with a Graingerism involved reading an MS
transcription of some short, soft band piece for orchestra. I was
playing a euphonium solo, and at the end it had the indication slow
off but the last ff was a bit detached from the slow o. I started
to read the ff as a
At 8:05 PM -0400 9/1/09, Ray Horton wrote:
I am sure there are some real differences in piano construction
between the late 1700s and now, yet even Mr. Fenton allows the name
to persist.
Actually, no. We differentiate carefully between fortepiano
(basically before the metal frame was
On 1 Sep 2009 at 21:22, Ray Horton wrote:
Pianoforte and Fortepiano were both used as early names for the
invention, soon shortened to piano for general use. Fortepiano has
come into use in recent decades to distinguish an early instrument or
reproduction. The name piano persisted from
On 1 Sep 2009 at 20:05, Ray Horton wrote:
arabu...@cowtown.net wrote:
...
ajr
who still thinks that Landowska's Bach is some of the best on record
I suppose the point, about Landowska's metal harpsichord, is that it
was at least heard before it is judged.
While I'm glad Landowska
Pianoforte and Fortepiano were both used as early names for the
invention, soon shortened to piano for general use. Fortepiano has
come into use in recent decades to distinguish an early instrument or
reproduction. The name piano persisted from soon after invention to
present day, as I said,
David W. Fenton wrote:
On 1 Sep 2009 at 21:22, Ray Horton wrote:
Pianoforte and Fortepiano were both used as early names for the
invention, soon shortened to piano for general use. Fortepiano has
come into use in recent decades to distinguish an early instrument or
reproduction. The
On 1 Sep 2009 at 23:20, Ray Horton wrote:
David W. Fenton wrote:
On 1 Sep 2009 at 21:22, Ray Horton wrote:
Pianoforte and Fortepiano were both used as early names for the
invention, soon shortened to piano for general use. Fortepiano has
come into use in recent decades to distinguish
Ray Horton wrote:
[snip] The most astounding conclusion/discovery of Meucci,
to me, is that in
Verdi's famous 1871 letter prior to _Aida_:
That bombardon is not a possibility... I cherish a [valved] Trombone
Basso because it is of the same family as the others; but if it should
be too
...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com wrote:
From: dhbailey dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com
Subject: Re: [Finale] OT: Ophecleide
To: finale@shsu.edu
Date: Monday, August 31, 2009, 11:37 AM
Ray Horton wrote:
[snip] The most astounding conclusion/discovery of
Meucci, to me, is that in
Verdi's famous 1871
On 31 Aug 2009 at 5:37, dhbailey wrote:
These days, often in discussions such as sometimes occur on
orchestralist, people seem to be of the play it with the
instruments called for in the score or don't play it at all.
How dare you go against the clearly written desires of the
composer
wrote:
From: dhbailey dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com
Subject: Re: [Finale] OT: Ophecleide
To: finale@shsu.edu
Date: Monday, August 31, 2009, 11:37 AM
Ray Horton wrote:
[snip] The most astounding conclusion/discovery of
Meucci, to me, is that in
Verdi's famous 1871 letter prior
not
employ the orchestral brasses. It was left for the banda to play.
Klaus
--- On Tue, 9/1/09, Ray Horton rayhor...@insightbb.com wrote:
From: Ray Horton rayhor...@insightbb.com
Subject: Re: [Finale] OT: Ophecleide
To: finale@shsu.edu
Date: Tuesday, September 1, 2009, 1:49 AM
Thanks
I think we might be misunderstanding the intent of Roger Bobo's page. He
was the long time tubist with the Los Angeles Symphony and is simply
making observations on what he sees going on in the symphonic world now.
He was/is no troglodyte himself - for example, he helped bring the F
tuba into
Would be interesting to here a Roger Norrington Roman Triptych, 78-rpm
disc and all. and perhaps official buccine instead of
saxhorns/flügelhorns?
ajr
I think we might be misunderstanding the intent of Roger Bobo's page. He
was the long time tubist with the Los Angeles Symphony and is simply
On 31 Aug 2009 at 22:20, Ray Horton wrote:
Now, regarding David's comparison of a pianist, Mozart, and a
fortepiano, I am guessing that a pianist might not choose the Mozart-era
fortepiano if playing with a modern orchestra, larger than those in
Mozart's day, and playing in a large concert
Has anyone here run across the feminized Cornetta to refer to the
3-valve cornet? I'm about to finalize a score that includes this
instrument, and I don't want it mistake for the cornetto of Moneteverdi's
time.
ajr
___
Finale mailing list
Didn't Bobo play for either Chicago and or Philly at one time?
That's going back a bit ..
Dean
On Aug 31, 2009, at 7:20 PM, Ray Horton wrote:
I think we might be misunderstanding the intent of Roger Bobo's
page. He was the long time tubist with the Los Angeles Symphony and
is simply
At 9:21 PM -0500 8/31/09, arabu...@cowtown.net wrote:
Has anyone here run across the feminized Cornetta to refer to the
3-valve cornet? I'm about to finalize a score that includes this
instrument, and I don't want it mistake for the cornetto of Moneteverdi's
time.
ajr
No, although that
I usually put as many of the words in my scores into Italian as possible,
somewhat drawing on my experience of making recordings in Moravia where
they understood everything I wrote in Italian, and not necessarily what I
wrote in English (e.g., white keys, rim shot).
ajr
At 9:21 PM -0500
FWIW, I've long been a proponent of (as an American composer) using
directions in English as much as possible. If it's been good enough
for the Italians, French, and Germans ... why not us? Let them come
to us for a change ... eh, it's just the curmudgeon bubbling to the
surface ... I
At 23:33 29.08.2009 -0400, David W. Fenton wrote:
http://www.tubanews.com/index.php?option=com_contentview=articleid=353:ophicleide-and-cimbassocatid=36:essaysItemid=86
That article is dreadfully prejudiced. It would be like me claiming
that the fortepiano of Mozart's era should not be used
At 11:19 PM -0400 8/29/09, Ray Horton wrote:
John Howell wrote:
Nothing wrong with inventing new instruments, but one should avoid
using the names of older instruments for them!
You mean like the cornet?
Well, at least that was a direct and one-to-one replacement of the
older cornetto
John Howell wrote:
At 11:19 PM -0400 8/29/09, Ray Horton wrote:
John Howell wrote:
Nothing wrong with inventing new instruments, but one should avoid
using the names of older instruments for them!
You mean like the cornet?
Well, at least that was a direct and one-to-one replacement of
At 10:38 PM -0400 8/30/09, Ray Horton wrote:
John Howell wrote:
At 11:19 PM -0400 8/29/09, Ray Horton wrote:
John Howell wrote:
Nothing wrong with inventing new instruments, but one should
avoid using the names of older instruments for them!
You mean like the cornet?
Well, at least
John Howell wrote:
At 7:29 PM -0400 8/28/09, Glen Daum wrote:
For whatever it's worth, I feel obliged to report that I heard Kyle
Turner play the ophecleide a couple of weeks ago in a performance
with the American Symphony Orchestra, conducted by Leon Botstein at
Bard College, in a
On 29 Aug 2009 at 23:19, Ray Horton wrote:
I think this instrument might be an excellent solution to a long-time
problem. The tuba is an imperfect substitute for an ophicleide, but a
real ophicleide is not necessarily a good modern solution, soundwise,
for an ophicleide part, and requires
For whatever it's worth, I feel obliged to report that I heard Kyle
Turner play the ophecleide a couple of weeks ago in a performance
with the American Symphony Orchestra, conducted by Leon Botstein at
Bard College, in a performance of Les Huguenots by Meyerbeer and I
thought he sounded
At 7:29 PM -0400 8/28/09, Glen Daum wrote:
For whatever it's worth, I feel obliged to report that I heard Kyle
Turner play the ophecleide a couple of weeks ago in a performance
with the American Symphony Orchestra, conducted by Leon Botstein at
Bard College, in a performance of Les Huguenots
And then your old IU buddy, John Howell had this response to Glens note:
-Original Message-
From: finale-boun...@shsu.edu [mailto:finale-boun...@shsu.edu] On Behalf Of
John Howell
Sent: Friday, August 28, 2009 9:18 PM
To: finale@shsu.edu
Subject: Re: [Finale] OT: Ophecleide
At 7:29 PM
Sorry, this doesn't make any sense because I didn't intend to send it to the
list.
-Original Message-
From: finale-boun...@shsu.edu [mailto:finale-boun...@shsu.edu] On Behalf Of
Dalvin Boone
Sent: Friday, August 28, 2009 10:04 PM
To: finale@shsu.edu
Subject: RE: [Finale] OT: Ophecleide
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