Re: [FRIAM] How to avoid shootings

To add on to that, the original values-hating email was not a contradiction - Lee did not claim he did not have values, just that he hated them. In fact, perhaps someone would care less about values one way or the other if they did not have them. >From my perspective, because values seemingly canno

Re: [FRIAM] How to avoid shootings

From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Douglas Roberts Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2012 12:48 PM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group Subject: Re: [FRIAM] How to avoid shootings Sorry Nick: hating values is an action. Verb, not a noun. On Tue, Dec 18, 20

Re: [FRIAM] How to avoid shootings

I wasn't referring to the most recent crazy murder-suicide incidents. More towards the fetish folks who collect guns against the day when they'll be able to justify their use.Or the guy who open carries around a handgun loaded with hollowpoints on the day somebody dents his car and he hap

Re: [FRIAM] How to avoid shootings

On 12/18/12 2:03 PM, Carl Tollander wrote: It seems to me the knee-jerk response to this sort of thing is to improve detection and mitigate consequences, as with gun control I'd guess detection can and will be defeated by someone like this (in part because he probably has someone helping him, l

Re: [FRIAM] How to avoid shootings

It seems to me the knee-jerk response to this sort of thing is to improve detection and mitigate consequences, as with gun control I'd guess detection can and will be defeated by someone like this (in part because he probably has someone helping him, like his mother), and consequences can't be

Re: [FRIAM] How to avoid shootings

o:friam-boun...@redfish.com <mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>] On Behalf Of lrudo...@black.clarku.edu <mailto:lrudo...@black.clarku.edu> Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2012 11:44 AM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group Cc: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffe

Re: [FRIAM] How to avoid shootings

d Complexity Coffee Group > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] How to avoid shootings > > > Dear Lee and Marcus, > > > > I am afraid I fell for a Liberal meme. It may, of course, be true, > > but at least so far as I can determine from a quick scan of the web, > > there is no conse

Re: [FRIAM] How to avoid shootings

To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group Cc: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group Subject: Re: [FRIAM] How to avoid shootings > Dear Lee and Marcus, > > I am afraid I fell for a Liberal meme. It may, of course, be true, > but at least so far as I can dete

Re: [FRIAM] How to avoid shootings

Perhaps the kid came by his insanity honestly, living with a gun-obsessed survivalist mother who was convinced that society was about to end. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2248983/Connecticut-school-shooting-Adam-Lanzas-survivalist-mother-obsessed-guns.html On Tue, Dec 18, 2012 at 12

Re: [FRIAM] How to avoid shootings

On 12/18/12 11:10 AM, Leigh Fanning wrote: It seems the entire surrounding group was out of touch. Was the father so removed that he spent no time with his son and simply paid off the mother to make a problem go away so he could continue his wealthy much better than yours life? Are we really to

Re: [FRIAM] How to avoid shootings

> Dear Lee and Marcus, > > I am afraid I fell for a Liberal meme. It may, of course, be true, but at > least so far as I can determine from a quick scan of the web, there is no > consensus on the causality that I implied. > > So, at the moment, I guess it just comes down to values. I hate the

Re: [FRIAM] How to avoid shootings

Hear hear! To all both of Marcus' and Leigh's comments and to Doug's quote from the most insightful cartoon philosopher of all! Leigh - As a (mostly) single father of two (now grown) daughters, I am very sympathetic with the (more common) single mothers who have had the burden (and privileg

Re: [FRIAM] How to avoid shootings

things. My apologies. Nick -Original Message- From: lrudo...@black.clarku.edu [mailto:lrudo...@black.clarku.edu] Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2012 11:01 AM To: Nicholas Thompson; friam@redfish.com Subject: Re: [FRIAM] How to avoid shootings Nick: > So, Marcus. You would make no chan

Re: [FRIAM] How to avoid shootings

"We have met the Enemy, and he is us." - Pogo On Tue, Dec 18, 2012 at 11:10 AM, Leigh Fanning wrote: > This is a country producing substandard students unable to compete > intellectually with their peers, with school budgets a perennial > mess. It's also a country that primarily serves complia

Re: [FRIAM] How to avoid shootings

This is a country producing substandard students unable to compete intellectually with their peers, with school budgets a perennial mess. It's also a country that primarily serves compliant, malleable girls in the school systems. Problem boys are fast-tracked to deficit drugs rather than creating

Re: [FRIAM] How to avoid shootings

, December 18, 2012 12:39 AM To: friam@redfish.com Subject: Re: [FRIAM] How to avoid shootings Hi, When it comes to gun control and parents, does the government try to cross-examine parents seeking purchase of weapons to be sure their remarks about their children are sufficiently detached and

Re: [FRIAM] How to avoid shootings

nt: Monday, December 17, 2012 9:28 PM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group Subject: Re: [FRIAM] How to avoid shootings N - Yes, of course... the list is archived and (apparently?) open to the world and indexed by search engines, so I assume that the audience is the universe and the p

Re: [FRIAM] How to avoid shootings

Hi, When it comes to gun control and parents, does the government try to cross-examine parents seeking purchase of weapons to be sure their remarks about their children are sufficiently detached and analytical? Do we expect parents to know the inner lives of their introverted children, and

Re: [FRIAM] How to avoid shootings

ssage- From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Steve Smith Sent: Monday, December 17, 2012 11:30 AM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group Subject: Re: [FRIAM] How to avoid shootings N - Your point is well taken... It is out of the culture that murdered and disp

Re: [FRIAM] How to avoid shootings

...@redfish.com] *On Behalf Of *Roger > Critchlow > *Sent:* Monday, December 17, 2012 11:35 AM > > *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group > *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] How to avoid shootings > > ** ** > > I have now supplemented my morning reading with >

Re: [FRIAM] How to avoid shootings

bject: Re: [FRIAM] How to avoid shootings N - Your point is well taken... It is out of the culture that murdered and displaced our native population that our gun culture emerged and now thrives. It is still glorified by many, some trying to live it past it's time and some watching from the

Re: [FRIAM] How to avoid shootings

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] How to avoid shootings N - Your point is well taken... It is out of the culture that murdered and displaced our native population that our gun culture emerged and now thrives. It is still glorified by many, some trying to live it past it's time and some watching fro

Re: [FRIAM] How to avoid shootings

From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Roger Critchlow Sent: Monday, December 17, 2012 11:35 AM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group Subject: Re: [FRIAM] How to avoid shootings I have now supplemented my morning reading with http://en.wikipedi

Re: [FRIAM] How to avoid shootings

I am not sure why it percolated up here, it is a truly unconscious contribution to the discussion. -- rec -- Glad there are others here whose unconscious insists on trying to contribute... at least yours is concise! FRIAM Applied C

Re: [FRIAM] How to avoid shootings

I have now supplemented my morning reading with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Port_Arthur_massacre_(Australia) and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunblane_school_massacre. The Dunblane school massacre inspired the Port Arthur perpetrator, resulted in the deaths of a classroom of 5 and 6 year old stud

Re: [FRIAM] How to avoid shootings

So do you suppose an agreement could be made on banning some ammunition, rationing others and letting people have as many guns as they like? Or would that just be an incentive to create a black market in ammunition with no real benefit? Robert C On 12/17/12 9:58 AM, Sarbajit Roy wrote: http

Re: [FRIAM] How to avoid shootings

Americans. [shudder] N -Original Message- From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Russell Standish Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2012 11:08 PM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group Subject: Re: [FRIAM] How to avoid shootings On Sun, Dec 16, 2012 at 10:56:44P

Re: [FRIAM] How to avoid shootings

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expanding_bullet "Invented" in India. Outlawed 22-2 with Britain and the USofA in favour at the Hague Convention. On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 10:12 PM, Robert J. Cordingley < rob...@cirrillian.com> wrote: > Plus > reports

Re: [FRIAM] How to avoid shootings

Plus reports said the type and quantity of ammo sends shudders up your spine: "...enough to kill just about every student in the school if given enough time, authorities said" "The

Re: [FRIAM] How to avoid shootings

Quail hunting? On Dec 16, 2012, at 4:43 PM, Owen Densmore wrote: > Why would anyone need an AK-47? FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/l

Re: [FRIAM] How to avoid shootings

On Sun, Dec 16, 2012 at 11:51:07PM -0700, Nicholas Thompson wrote: > Thanks, Russ. At least somebody had the grace to apologize. I don't think > the word apologize is in our national lexicon. Can you IMAGINE what would > happen if Obama were to apologize on behalf of the nation for our infectio

Re: [FRIAM] How to avoid shootings

Russell, et al., In fairness, the Port Arthur shooting was far worse that most such events in the US (I don't want to compare specifically with the current one). Also, Australia's population in 1996 was just not quite 18 million. The population in the US is currently over 314 million. Just looking

Re: [FRIAM] How to avoid shootings

icans. [shudder] N -Original Message- From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Russell Standish Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2012 11:08 PM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group Subject: Re: [FRIAM] How to avoid shootings On Sun, Dec 16, 2012 at 10:56:44PM

Re: [FRIAM] How to avoid shootings

On Sun, Dec 16, 2012 at 10:56:44PM -0700, Nicholas Thompson wrote: > And you forgot our genocide? For some reason I imagine that the Australian > genocide was less vicious. I hope the Australians on the list will weigh in > on that. N > > > Sadly, our treatment of the Aborigines was pretty

Re: [FRIAM] How to avoid shootings

On Sun, Dec 16, 2012 at 09:17:51PM -0700, Steve Smith wrote: > I know we have some Aussies on this list who may be able to keep me > honest, but an Australian friend of mine, in response to this debate > and this incident claimed that until 1996, the Australian gun > ownership was not that much dif

Re: [FRIAM] How to avoid shootings

Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group Subject: Re: [FRIAM] How to avoid shootings I know we have some Aussies on this list who may be able to keep me honest, but an Australian friend of mine, in response to this debate and this incident claimed that until 1996, the Australian gun ownership was

Re: [FRIAM] How to avoid shootings

I know we have some Aussies on this list who may be able to keep me honest, but an Australian friend of mine, in response to this debate and this incident claimed that until 1996, the Australian gun ownership was not that much different than our own. As the consequence of a mass shooting at Po

Re: [FRIAM] How to avoid shootings

Is it me or isn't it obvious that without campaign finance reform we won't be able to pass any reasonable gun control laws because of the NRA? Robert C On 12/16/12 6:23 PM, Steve Smith wrote: Owen - I don't want a neighbor with a bazooka. Or hand-grenade. I'm fine with well educated gun own

Re: [FRIAM] How to avoid shootings

Owen - I don't want a neighbor with a bazooka. Or hand-grenade. I'm fine with well educated gun owners with hand guns and hunting rifles. But do we really want neighbors with ground-to-air rocket launchers? I think this is the conditions too much of the third world where we (and our surrogat

Re: [FRIAM] How to avoid shootings

Isn't there a danger of going back to paralysis by analysis... happens every time (so far). Tell the grieving parents that. Robert C On 12/16/12 3:37 PM, ERIC P. CHARLES wrote: But Jochen... now you are begging the question. Even if it is true, as you argue, that real-life gun training and vio

Re: [FRIAM] How to avoid shootings

Why would anyone need an AK-47? We started with muskets but the founding mothers could't dream of what would come. Time for some sort of sanity here. Now to be clear, I realize prohibition simply doesn't work. But in this case, it might make a difference, small, but none the less. I don't want

Re: [FRIAM] How to avoid shootings

Jochen, et al - I think that both of the issues you describe (gun access and surrogate violence in youth) are significant risk factors but neither are necessary nor sufficient to explain (or prevent) these kinds of incidents. I am fairly confident that limiting either or both of these factor

Re: [FRIAM] How to avoid shootings

But Jochen... now you are begging the question. Even if it is true, as you argue, that real-life gun training and violent video games cause problems IN TROUBLED TEENS, the obvious conclusion would be to try to produce fewer troubled teens! If you fix that, you don't need to regulate legitimate safe

Re: [FRIAM] How to avoid shootings

The NYTimes has a nice article about this balderdash http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/15/opinion/collins-looking-for-america.html?smid=tw-share&_r=0 What I found interesting is how the whole can be different from the parts: first-person shooters alone are harmless, shooting clubs or sports as well

Re: [FRIAM] How to avoid shootings

I think this line of reasoning ("using guns and violent games make people go crazy and shoot people, therefore, restricting access (even more) to guns and games will make less people shoot people. ") is balderdash. Correlation is not causation. Guns and games did not make the person troubled. Th

[FRIAM] How to avoid shootings

The recent shooting at Sandy Hook, Conneticut, reminded me of the shooting in Winnenden 3 years ago. In 2009, a teenager killed 15 people at a School in southern Germany. It turned out his father owned many guns legally and took him occasionally to a shooting club. The son played frequently shoot