Re: [FRIAM] the arc of ai (was Re: Whew!)

ue! *From:* Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] *On Behalf Of *Frank Wimberly *Sent:* Monday, May 08, 2017 10:32 PM *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] the arc of ai (was Re: Whew!) I am risking citing authorities again. Marc Raibert left Carnegie Mel

Re: [FRIAM] the arc of ai (was Re: Whew!)

I KNOW! That was such a compelling feeling... The robot's *apparent* long-suffering patience added to its anthropomorphic features in making me want to imagine it to have more "humanity" than it possibly could. Taking the hockey stick away from his tormentor or giving him a good smackdown w

Re: [FRIAM] the arc of ai (was Re: Whew!)

arc of ai (was Re: Whew!) I am risking citing authorities again. Marc Raibert left Carnegie Mellon, founded the Leg Lab at MIT, then founded Boston Dynamics. Raibert, Marc H. and Francis C. Wimberly. Tabular Control of Balance in a Dynamic Legged System. IEEE Transactions on

Re: [FRIAM] the arc of ai (was Re: Whew!)

I am risking citing authorities again. Marc Raibert left Carnegie Mellon, founded the Leg Lab at MIT, then founded Boston Dynamics. Raibert, Marc H. and Francis C. Wimberly. Tabular Control of Balance in a Dynamic Legged System. IEEE Transactions on Systems, Man and Cybernetics 14,

Re: [FRIAM] the arc of ai (was Re: Whew!)

I guess a measure of how life-like it is, is how much you are waiting for the robot to haul off and smack the guy with the hockey stick. Some kind of mirror neuron thing, maybe. > On May 9, 2017, at 12:06 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote: > > Glen writes: > > "At some point, wouldn't we enter David

Re: [FRIAM] the arc of ai (was Re: Whew!)

Glen writes: "At some point, wouldn't we enter David Deutsch (or Neal Stephenson) territory? ... where the idea is that the computation in our nervous system is mappable to the computation going on around us" While Boston Dynamics has remarkable capabilities

Re: [FRIAM] the arc of ai (was Re: Whew!)

At some point, wouldn't we enter David Deutsch (or Neal Stephenson) territory? ... where the idea is that the computation in our nervous system is mappable to the computation going on around us. If consciousness isn't compressible because it's an artifact of that mapping, then faster neurons

Re: [FRIAM] the arc of ai (was Re: Whew!)

rning Applied Complexity Coffee Group Subject: Re: [FRIAM] the arc of ai (was Re: Whew!) What if faster firing tightened a brain's coupling to its environment, rather than loosening it? That would suggest that brains with fast neurons would be _less_ tolerant of ambiguity, not more. One coul

Re: [FRIAM] the arc of ai (was Re: Whew!)

What if faster firing tightened a brain's coupling to its environment, rather than loosening it? That would suggest that brains with fast neurons would be _less_ tolerant of ambiguity, not more. One couldn't think deeply about anything because the environment would keep you locked in a kind o

Re: [FRIAM] the arc of ai (was Re: Whew!)

Fantastic pattern recognition, Roger. We can combine anti-emminence-based concept of white privilege with Kazynski's (negative) interpretation of the more tightly integrated social fabric ("will have to be ever more reliable, conforming and docile, because they will be more and more like cells

Re: [FRIAM] the arc of ai (was Re: Whew!)

Glen writes: "Those of us who tolerate (especially drastic) semantic shifts, on the fly, may survive through any Singularity." A fun fact that I ran across last week: A superconducting neuron made of Josephson Junctions could be 7 orders of magnitude faster than those in the human central ne

Re: [FRIAM] the arc of ai (was Re: Whew!)

Harking back to an earlier complaint from Marcus about blatant and lazy appeals to authority, which may have been in another thread altogether, this http://andrewgelman.com/2017/05/07/discussion-lee-jussim-simine-vazire-eminence-junk-science-blind-reviewing/ introduced me to the formulation "emi

Re: [FRIAM] the arc of ai (was Re: Whew!)

Coincidentally, given the topic of [SG]AI and the semantic grounding of rhetorical terms: The meaning of life in a world without work https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/may/08/virtual-reality-religion-robots-sapiens-book?utm_source=esp&utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=GU+Today+USA+-+Collec

Re: [FRIAM] the arc of ai (was Re: Whew!)

On 5/6/17 10:52 AM, Joe Spinden wrote: The talk of who went to what school seems beside the point. The benefits of Pre-K seem indisputable to me.. As do the benefits of reduced sugar consumption. For those with limited access to the basics of modern education, I think Pre-K is a great thi

Re: [FRIAM] the arc of ai (was Re: Whew!)

d effort was a Hail Mary that was a symptom of a deeper problem. Marcus From: Friam on behalf of Joe Spinden Sent: Saturday, May 6, 2017 10:52:54 AM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group Subject: Re: [FRIAM] the arc of ai (was Re: Whew!) Th

Re: [FRIAM] the arc of ai (was Re: Whew!)

The talk of who went to what school seems beside the point. The benefits of Pre-K seem indisputable to me.. As do the benefits of reduced sugar consumption. I did not focus on the benefits of Pre-K vis-a-vis the proposed tax because I was never convinced the administration could competently

Re: [FRIAM] the arc of ai (was Re: Whew!)

2017 9:44:59 AM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group Subject: Re: [FRIAM] the arc of ai (was Re: Whew!) Let's summarize. I said I wish people would focus on the benefits of pre-K education rather than the economic impacts of the tax and the effects on diet. I mentioned th

Re: [FRIAM] the arc of ai (was Re: Whew!)

Wimberly Sent: Saturday, May 6, 2017 9:44:59 AM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group Subject: Re: [FRIAM] the arc of ai (was Re: Whew!) Let's summarize. I said I wish people would focus on the benefits of pre-K education rather than the economic impacts of the tax and

Re: [FRIAM] the arc of ai (was Re: Whew!)

Let's summarize. I said I wish people would focus on the benefits of pre-K education rather than the economic impacts of the tax and the effects on diet. I mentioned that my wife, who went to graduate school at the Harvard Ed School, is a big proponent of pre-K. Merle said that I missed the poin

Re: [FRIAM] the arc of ai (was Re: Whew!)

Frank writes: "Which notorious person went to which university? Why?" It’s a question of fairness and consistency relative to values, not a question of correct vs. incorrect. Here are two more personal experiences which I doubt I really need to give but I will for completeness. 1. A disr

Re: [FRIAM] the arc of ai (was Re: Whew!)

Which notorious person went to which university? Why? Frank Wimberly Phone (505) 670-9918 On May 5, 2017 11:50 PM, "Merle Lefkoff" wrote: > It's NOT irrelevant, Frank! > > On Fri, May 5, 2017 at 3:06 PM, glen ☣ wrote: > >> >> Heh, just in case you think my comments about my gratefulness or >>

Re: [FRIAM] the arc of ai (was Re: Whew!)

It's NOT irrelevant, Frank! On Fri, May 5, 2017 at 3:06 PM, glen ☣ wrote: > > Heh, just in case you think my comments about my gratefulness or admission > of my stupidity are somehow intended as ironic, I'll confirm they are NOT. > All y'all are way smarter than me. And I am very grateful for y

Re: [FRIAM] the arc of ai (was Re: Whew!)

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] the arc of ai (was Re: Whew!) No, because it's irrelevant. Frank Wimberly Phone (505) 670-9918 On May 5, 2017 2:36 PM, "Marcus Daniels" mailto:mar...@snoutfarm.com>> wrote: Frank writes: “In that case I was using reductio ad absurdum to argue the irrelevancy

Re: [FRIAM] the arc of ai (was Re: Whew!)

Steve writes: < ... but "Evil" might be one of many things depending on the reserved lexicon of the speaker... Social Conservatives would place LGBT and Abortion Rights and Gun Control on their list of "Evil" .. > Yeah, overloaded local dictionaries as a lazy cache for a community's prefer

Re: [FRIAM] the arc of ai (was Re: Whew!)

Marcus - I personally am a fan of "late binding" in natural language. If I defer it too late, it can get me in trouble... Trump got a lot of slack from me along the way because of this. I can't tell if "Trump is clever to observe that people ... " or his pattern matching skills lead him to

Re: [FRIAM] the arc of ai (was Re: Whew!)

Steve writes: "I do like the stylization of upper case initiated variables similar to Marcus PROLOG reference, though if I understand him correctly I use it differently." Simple logic programs can be nothing but a conjunction of predicates. In this situation the predicates would be the reader

Re: [FRIAM] the arc of ai (was Re: Whew!)

Heh, just in case you think my comments about my gratefulness or admission of my stupidity are somehow intended as ironic, I'll confirm they are NOT. All y'all are way smarter than me. And I am very grateful for your presence, interaction, tolerance, and the very existence of the forum. I su

Re: [FRIAM] the arc of ai (was Re: Whew!)

Glen - Is this your version of the Serenity Prayer? If so, it is a nicely novel one! I feel *measureably* (if only fractionally) smarter when I manage to (mostly) follow many of the deeply thoughtful discussions here... your's and Marcus' most most immediately. I could easily list a doze

Re: [FRIAM] the arc of ai (was Re: Whew!)

No, because it's irrelevant. Frank Wimberly Phone (505) 670-9918 On May 5, 2017 2:36 PM, "Marcus Daniels" wrote: > Frank writes: > > > > “In that case I was using reductio ad absurdum to argue the irrelevancy > of which celebrity went to what school.” > > > > Because he’s a terrorist or becaus

Re: [FRIAM] the arc of ai (was Re: Whew!)

Frank writes: “In that case I was using reductio ad absurdum to argue the irrelevancy of which celebrity went to what school.” Because he’s a terrorist or because his ideas were wrong? His ideas resonate with whitelash voters. I find that scary. Marcus

Re: [FRIAM] the arc of ai (was Re: Whew!)

I have 30+ years experience reading and, rarely, posting to bboards, forums, etc. Use of irony can cause problems. Even if most people know what you mean, there will often be people who think you mean what you say. I admit that I have occasionally used irony, such as when I mentioned that Ted Kac

Re: [FRIAM] the arc of ai (was Re: Whew!)

Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of gepr Sent: Friday, May 05, 2017 2:05 PM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group Subject: Re: [FRIAM] the arc of ai (was Re: Whew!) And as always I'm tremendously grateful for all my friends, who are immeasurably smarter th

Re: [FRIAM] the arc of ai (was Re: Whew!)

And as always I'm tremendously grateful for all my friends, who are immeasurably smarter than me, for their tolerance of my nonsensical attempts to navigate reality. On May 5, 2017 12:02:15 PM PDT, Marcus Daniels wrote: >Glen writes: > >< If a listener abstracts their self, they are just as ev

Re: [FRIAM] the arc of ai (was Re: Whew!)

Glen writes: < If a listener abstracts their self, they are just as evil as a speaker abstracting their self. > Steve writes: < Firstly, my own throwdown of "rhetoric" was intended to be very specific. I believe that you both took it to be a bit more broad than intended. I specifically mean

Re: [FRIAM] the arc of ai (was Re: Whew!)

FWIW, I would try not to over-parse "rhetoric" any more than I over-parse "abstract". All informational language is persuasive and all persuasive language is informative. The distinction is false, I think. We see this most egregiously in the saying: If you want to learn something, read about

Re: [FRIAM] the arc of ai (was Re: Whew!)

Glen/Marcus - As usual, I am enjoying watching your semantic and conceptual fencing match here. The flash of parry, riposte, counter-riposte can be blinding but engaging. The content, when I feel I have parsed it down all the way is usually enlightening and informative. Rather than try to

Re: [FRIAM] the arc of ai (was Re: Whew!)

"Linux is useless without a shell like GNU. But that doesn't mean those artifacts are somehow abstractions." There's abstract as "existing in thought or as an idea but not having a physical or concrete existence". A computer program not really physical. It can be represented as physical st

Re: [FRIAM] the arc of ai (was Re: Whew!)

Glen write: "Their interpretation of their distributed artifact is decoupled from, abstracted from, their audience's interpretation of the same artifact. And they bear some responsibility for that decoupling." Listeners bear responsibility too. Marcus

Re: [FRIAM] the arc of ai (was Re: Whew!)

But that's not what you said. You said they distribute abstractions, which they clearly do not ... cannot because that's nonsense. One cannot distribute an abstraction. The reason one can _experience_ discovering an unintended _use_ for an artifact is because these things that get distribute

Re: [FRIAM] the arc of ai (was Re: Whew!)

Glen writes: < I disagree. These tools are personal (I'm OK if you'd prefer a different term... "local" perhaps, "concrete"?) and are definitely not abstract. When you put your life (as you know it) at risk submitting classified information to Wikileaks, that's personal. When you spend 1/2 y

Re: [FRIAM] the arc of ai (was Re: Whew!)

On 05/05/2017 09:24 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote: > I intended to make a different point than what I think you may have concluded. Heh, yes, I know. That was partly the point of referring to it in this context. >8^D Nonetheless, the point I inferred is still there. > To certain technologists, ther

Re: [FRIAM] the arc of ai (was Re: Whew!)

Glen writes: " But what I didn't get from his talk (yet it's mirrored in Marcus' post about open source communities) is the tight coupling that's needed." I intended to make a different point than what I think you may have concluded. To certain technologists, there is the view that our culture

Re: [FRIAM] the arc of ai (was Re: Whew!)

Hm. But enlightenment (IMO) only happens in a personal sense. And "personal" implies tight couplings. Eg Dick Cheney being OK with gay people because his daughter is gay, despite him being evil in every other non-personal aspect of his decades in power. Or Milo _finally_ realizing how bad a

Re: [FRIAM] the arc of ai (was Re: Whew!)

Glen writes: "Being _in_ the world means being tightly coupled to it so that you feel the immediate consequences of your words and hear your own words repeated from others' mouths. If you're not tightly coupled, then you're at risk." Speaking truth to power implies that the truth stands on its

Re: [FRIAM] the arc of ai (was Re: Whew!)

< Those non-violent anarchists are NOT willing to take responsibility for the actions of others who call themselves "anarchists". Nor, it seems, are they willing to take responsibility for the damage their rhetoric might cause. > There is an underlying moral stance, that damage of some kind occ

Re: [FRIAM] the arc of ai (was Re: Whew!)

Well, I did get a chance to listen to CArne Ross' TED talk after Marcus pointed him out. (Nothing further, yet.) And he made one comment in that talk that I like, yet completely disagree with ... something like "it's up to each and every person to implement policy" ... or diplomacy or someth

Re: [FRIAM] the arc of ai (was Re: Whew!)

Glen - I know what you are saying here is intended to be more pointed, but doesn't it come down to the simple definition of rhetoric? Persuasive speech (including writing, posturing, gesturing in public) is intended to *persuade* and if one is effective in their rhetoric (persuasion), then th

Re: [FRIAM] the arc of ai (was Re: Whew!)

Well said, Glen. At the same time, some of us who are not anarchists (I'm still on the journey) understand that the actions of many who call themselves Democrats, or Republicans, or President or Congressmen or CEOs--just a few seemingly less extreme examples--all exemplify the "different demagogue

Re: [FRIAM] the arc of ai (was Re: Whew!)

OK. So, the answer is "No". Those non-violent anarchists are NOT willing to take responsibility for the actions of others who call themselves "anarchists". Nor, it seems, are they willing to take responsibility for the damage their rhetoric might cause. So it is with Islam, libertarians, Tru

Re: [FRIAM] the arc of ai (was Re: Whew!)

Glen, you have a choice to assume that anarchists, like all political groups, come with a more nuanced spectrum of strategies than outsiders are able to discern. And many that I know understand that in the long run, non-violence is the winning strategy. On Thu, May 4, 2017 at 4:37 PM, glen ☣ wro

Re: [FRIAM] the arc of ai (was Re: Whew!)

f of glen ☣ Sent: Thursday, May 4, 2017 4:37:19 PM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group Subject: Re: [FRIAM] the arc of ai (was Re: Whew!) So, how do they feel about policing the other self-described "anarchists"? I.e. calling out groups like the black bloc as

Re: [FRIAM] the arc of ai (was Re: Whew!)

So, how do they feel about policing the other self-described "anarchists"? I.e. calling out groups like the black bloc as "outsiders" or whatnot? If someone comes to me and says "I'm an anarchist", what choice do I have but to assume they're a violent idiot who would rather throw bricks throu

Re: [FRIAM] the arc of ai (was Re: Whew!)

“The alternative new world vision is one of community and sharing--because technology will not get us out of the profound implications of rapid climate change.” Maybe after some big extinction event. Until then, how about some holes? There are some respectable numbers here compared to 10 bil

Re: [FRIAM] the arc of ai (was Re: Whew!)

They are "thoughtful anarchists" who do non-violent civil disobedience---the stuff people like "Earth First" used to do, when they were holding down the far left of the old environmental movement. Some consider their actions"destructive" but they don't promote violence in their own ranks. They kn

[FRIAM] the arc of ai (was Re: Whew!)

Though definitely less scifi than it used to be, Ted's prediction is clearly wrong in the most important part: increasing specialization. The distinction missing (here -- I haven't read the manifesto) is the distinction between special vs general intelligence. GI is still mysterious and we're