A cent is 1200 times the logarithm to base 2 of a real number.
And the reason for those "complicated numbers" is the rather elementary fact
that
log(3)/log(2)
is irrational.
By the Gelfond-Schneider theorem it is even transcendental, but this a very
deep celebrated theorem proved in 1934
That is not true Rainer, they simply say that the use of cents is a relatively
modern one and anachronistic for dealing with Renaissance music. It is
concomitant with equal temperament (in which a cent = 1/100 of a semitone).
Best,
Matthew
Le 28 juil. 2019 à 10:13, Rainer a écrit :
>
Very entertaining, indeed.
Apparently, they don't have the slightest idea where the concept of cents is
coming from.
Rainer
PS
What these guys say about "complicated numbers" and computers in part two is -
I am afraid to say - bullshit.
These guys are mathematical idiots.
On 27.07.2019
An interesting and entertaining introduction to temperaments in the Renaissance
(but which does not broach the subject of fretted instruments):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R75unSXKJXQ=youtu.be
Some of the other episodes are also relevant to questions of temperament.
Best,
Matthew
To get
Ross Duffin wrote a very measured and comprehensive chapter entitled 'Tuning
and Temperament' in 'A Performer's Guide to Renaissance Music' (Indiana
University Press). He reviews the difficulties of using meantone on fretted
instruments (and notably lutes) and discusses the various solutions
> On Jul 23, 2019, at 9:07 AM, Alain Veylit wrote:
>
> I have a practical question : is it common practice for Baroque lute players
> to also adjust their frets when they change their diapason tuning?
No, it’s common practice to tune the diapasons to the fretted notes if tuning
them to G,
__
Gesendet mit der [1]Telekom Mail App
--- Original-Nachricht ---
Von: Alain Veylit
Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments
Datum: 23.07.2019, 18:07 Uhr
An: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
I have a practical question : is it common practice
I have a practical question : is it common practice for Baroque lute
players to also adjust their frets when they change their diapason tuning?
To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
sometimes even with bagpipes.
RT
On 7/22/2019 1:59 PM, r.turov...@gmail.com wrote:
Citterns play in only 2 keys, and hardly ever with other instruments.
so it is not a problem there.
RT
http://turovsky.org
Feci quod potui. Faciant meliora potentes.
On Jul 22, 2019, at 10:47 AM, David
.@cs.dartmouth.edu on behalf
of howard posner
Sent: Monday, July 22, 2019 2:01 AM
To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments
> On Jul 20, 2019, at 4:22 AM, Ron Andrico
wrote:
>
> musicians who
> understand music and who exp
Sent: Monday, July 22, 2019 2:47 PM
Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments
Fixed fretted instrument had some sort of MT. Citerns with an
approximation 1/6 comma MT come to mind. That's not a modern
interpretation or an awkward s
Dear all,
I hope I haven't missed anyone's mention of Bardi, but he apparently
witnessed the problem discussed here
âand more than once Iâve felt like laughing when I saw musicians
struggling to put a lute or a viol into proper tune with a keyboard..."
My own personal
I'm coming late to the discussion; perhaps an interesting read for some
of us would be Adam Wead's dissertation titled "Lute Tuning and
Temperament in the Sixteenth and Seventeenth Centuries". Here, I
believe, is the link:
half of
> howard posner
> Sent: Monday, July 22, 2019 5:36 PM
> To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments
>
> > On Jul 22, 2019, at 5:01 AM, Ron Andrico wrote:
> >
> > I am very good at distilling complex ideas into concise terms .
So you don't alter the tuning of the open strings on your lute when changing
temperaments? No wonder you don't like meantone.
Best,
Matthew
> On Jul 22, 2019, at 21:55, Ron Andrico wrote:
>
> It's even worse when a guitarist has to tune to a keyboard or an accordion in
> ensemble because
lternative
>> temperament issues and places them more in the class of a keyboard
>> instrument.
>>
>> RA
>>__
>>
>> From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu on behalf
>> of David van Ooije
-...@cs.dartmouth.edu on behalf
of David van Ooijen
Sent: Monday, July 22, 2019 7:39 PM
Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments
My point was they were played in consort with lutes, which has
consequences for the temperament of the lutes. Same is true
, July 22, 2019 2:47 PM
> Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments
>
> Fixed fretted instrument had some sort of MT. Citerns with an
> approximation 1/6 comma MT come to mind. That's not a modern
> interpretation or an awkward stretch.
&g
PM
Cc: [5]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu <[6]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments
Fixed fretted instrument had some sort of MT. Citerns with an
approximation 1/6 comma MT come to mind. That's not a modern
interpretati
Ooijen
Sent: Monday, July 22, 2019 2:47 PM
Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments
Fixed fretted instrument had some sort of MT. Citerns with an
approximation 1/6 comma MT come to mind. That's not a modern
interpretation or an awkward stretch
Sent: Monday, July 22, 2019 5:36 PM
To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments
> On Jul 22, 2019, at 5:01 AM, Ron Andrico
wrote:
>
> I am very good at distilling complex ideas into concise terms . . .
> What I do not value is the manner in w
@cs.dartmouth.edu
Oggetto: [LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments
Citterns play in broken consort with lutes. Been there, done that.
Temperament, not to mention tuning, certainly is an issue.
It's nice for members to speak out on subjects, it's even better
when
they do so on subjects
Citterns play in broken consort with lutes. Been there, done that.
Temperament, not to mention tuning, certainly is an issue.
It's nice for members to speak out on subjects, it's even better when
they do so on subjects they have some experience with.
David
On Mon, 22 Jul 2019
Hardly ever?...
In paintings, there's often other instruments...
And what about Orpharion? It also has fixed frets...
On 22.07.19 19:59, r.turov...@gmail.com wrote:
Citterns play in only 2 keys, and hardly ever with other instruments.
so it is not a problem there.
RT
I reckon that there's also different lutist temperaments.
Let's not use mean tone though :)
On 22.07.19 19:36, howard posner wrote:
On Jul 22, 2019, at 5:01 AM, Ron Andrico wrote:
I am very good at distilling complex ideas into concise terms . . .
What I do not value is the manner in
Citterns play in only 2 keys, and hardly ever with other instruments.
so it is not a problem there.
RT
http://turovsky.org
Feci quod potui. Faciant meliora potentes.
> On Jul 22, 2019, at 10:47 AM, David van Ooijen
> wrote:
>
> Fixed fretted instrument had some sort of MT. Citerns
> On Jul 22, 2019, at 5:01 AM, Ron Andrico wrote:
>
> I am very good at distilling complex ideas into concise terms . . .
> What I do not value is the manner in which various players claim authority by
> stating that their particular approach is the one true way.
But you’re the one who just
Fixed fretted instrument had some sort of MT. Citerns with an
approximation 1/6 comma MT come to mind. That's not a modern
interpretation or an awkward stretch.
>
>on. There survive some historical discussions of lute
fretting but the
>language is unclear or
dartmouth.edu on behalf
> of howard posner
> Sent: Monday, July 22, 2019 2:01 AM
> To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments
>
>> On Jul 20, 2019, at 4:22 AM, Ron Andrico
> wrote:
>>
>> musicians who
>> understand music and w
__
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu on behalf
of howard posner
Sent: Monday, July 22, 2019 2:01 AM
To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments
> On Jul 20, 2019, at 4:22 AM, Ron Andrico
wrote:
>
> musi
For those of you who are looking for help experimenting with meantone and other
temperaments, David van Ooijen's webpage is a very good starting point:
https://davidvanooijen.wordpress.com/mean-tone-temperament-for-lute/
Best,
Matthew
Le 21 juil. 2019 à 17:34, David van Ooijen a écrit :
>
> On Jul 20, 2019, at 4:22 AM, Ron Andrico wrote:
>
> musicians who
> understand music and who explore the more interesting repertory for
> lute follow the precepts of Galilei, which approximates equal
> temperament.
You just trashed most of the best musicians in early music, and,
Not all tastes are created equal.
RT
Sent from my iPhone
> On Jul 20, 2019, at 11:34 AM, Tristan von Neumann
> wrote:
>
> Roman, "insufferable" temperament does not exist.
>
> All temperaments are an acquired taste - otherwise you would (and some
> people surely did) think the music of
, tribioli wrote:
But major thirds are absolutely better, so...
FT
Messaggio originale
Da: Roman Turovsky
Data: 20/07/19 19:54 (GMT+01:00)
A: Matthew Daillie , "lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
list"
Oggetto: [LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments
Minor thirds get c
---
> Da: Roman Turovsky
> Data: 20/07/19 19:54 (GMT+01:00)
> A: Matthew Daillie , "lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
> list"
> Oggetto: [LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments
>
> Minor thirds get compromised, so
> RT
>> On 7/20/2019 12:55 PM, Matthew Daillie
But major thirds are absolutely better, so...
FT
Messaggio originale
Da: Roman Turovsky
Data: 20/07/19 19:54 (GMT+01:00)
A: Matthew Daillie , "lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
list"
Oggetto: [LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments
Minor thirds get compr
Minor thirds get compromised, so
RT
On 7/20/2019 12:55 PM, Matthew Daillie wrote:
??
Le 20 juil. 2019 à 18:45, Roman Turovsky a écrit :
I'm referring to the minor thirds in MT that that nauseously sound more neutral
than minor.
RT
To get on or off this list see list information at
??
Le 20 juil. 2019 à 18:45, Roman Turovsky a écrit :
> I'm referring to the minor thirds in MT that that nauseously sound more
> neutral than minor.
> RT
>
To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
I'm referring to the minor thirds in MT that that nauseously sound more
neutral than minor.
RT
On 7/20/2019 12:35 PM, Matthew Daillie wrote:
Yes, there are minor thirds in 1/4 comma meantone that are wider than in equal
temperament and so closer to pure (they beat less)! Minor thirds in equal
Yes, there are minor thirds in 1/4 comma meantone that are wider than in equal
temperament and so closer to pure (they beat less)! Minor thirds in equal
temperament are more than 15 cents narrower than pure.
Maybe you were referring to augmented seconds (in meantone, enharmonic
accidentals are
Roman, "insufferable" temperament does not exist.
All temperaments are an acquired taste - otherwise you would (and some
people surely did) think the music of Arabia insufferable with its 3/4
tones.
Or Gamelan ensembles consisting of instruments left to rot and detune
deliberately because it
It is a lot more harrowing to hear the minor 3rds that are too wide, resulting
from various masochistic temperaments.
And the use of the latter in music that contains chromaticism is simply
insufferable.
RT
http://turovsky.org
Feci quod potui. Faciant meliora potentes.
> On Jul 20,
It has been well-documented that the instructions published by Robert Dowland
in the Varietie of Lute Lessons are critically flawed (see Lindley pp. 81-83).
It is highly probable that something close to equal temperament was used during
the renaissance period but so were several variants of
an: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
> Cc: Lute List; Tristan von Neumann
> Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments
>
> from what I read the fret calculators on the net are based on historic
> instruments - hence a distinct Gerle and Dowland tuning because they are
> taken from the fret ma
Well said, Ron.
RT
===
http://rurovsky.org
> On Jul 20, 2019, at 7:22 AM, Ron Andrico wrote:
>
> Tristan, the various alternative temperaments may sound nice for a
> narrow repertory with the excepted odd note, but musicians who
> understand music and who explore the more interesting
Yes Ron, I'll try that too. (Btw. is there a freely available
instruction how to set up Galilei's tuning recommendation?)
It's just that the repertoire I explore is already the obscure stuff -
but my lute has only 7 courses. There is hardly anything that sounds weird.
I like Alberto, Marco,
Tristan, the various alternative temperaments may sound nice for a
narrow repertory with the excepted odd note, but musicians who
understand music and who explore the more interesting repertory for
lute follow the precepts of Galilei, which approximates equal
temperament.
RA
For a more detailed explanation I would refer you to the articles I quoted
below. Forgot also to mention David van Ooijen’s website:
https://davidvanooijen.wordpress.com/mean-tone-temperament-for-lute/ In terms
of chords in or out of tune the basic principle is that sharps and their
adjacent
peraments.
>
> Best
>
> Jo
>
> Originalnachricht
> Von: Jurgen Frenz
> Gesendet: Samstag, 20. Juli 2019 05:40
> An: Daniel Shoskes
> Antwort an: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
> Cc: Lute List; Tristan von Neumann
> Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments
>
> fr
Neumann
Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments
from what I read the fret calculators on the net are based on historic
instruments - hence a distinct Gerle and Dowland tuning because they are taken
from the fret marks on the neck of different instruments.
@ Daniel Shoskes, I wonder with 1/6th comma
from what I read the fret calculators on the net are based on historic
instruments - hence a distinct Gerle and Dowland tuning because they are taken
from the fret marks on the neck of different instruments.
@ Daniel Shoskes, I wonder with 1/6th comma tuning what is the reference pitch
as a
For my Renaissance lute I prefer 1/6 comma. Not too extreme if the keys stray
but noticeably brighter than equal for most solo music. Even if you prefer
equal, it’s handy to know how to get to 1/6 comma if you ever play in a mixed
ensemble.
If you have access to the latest LSA Quarterly, the
Well, then this is obviously a mistake in Lauri Niskanen's calculator,
which I trusted to be based on some facts.
Sounds pretty nice though.
In case you want to compare the two:
https://www.niskanenlutes.com/index.php?p=frets
On 19.07.19 18:12, jo.lued...@t-online.de wrote:
Tristan,
Gerle
Tristan,
Gerle vs. Dowland is a somewhat queer Match, because Dowland cites Gerle's
treaty in Varieties... So: how do you come to make a difference? Have I missed
something?
Best
Joe the Lousy Luter
Gesendet von meinem BlackBerry 10-Smartphone.
Originalnachricht
Von: Tristan von Neumann
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