Artesian writes:
>I no more deny that apartheid was broken than I would deny that segregation
> by race has been dismantled in the South.
>
> My last word on the subject but as you know I say that often, usually
> after I have already given assurances of my last word on the subject.
==
Artesian writes:
[...]
> No, I don't consider the end of apartheid a joke-- never said any such
> thing-- but the sort of Mandela-de Klerk deal does not bring democracy, or
> secularism, or socialism.
Thanks for clarifying.
> Does anyone think the Afrikaners made this deal out of the goodness o
was in the
organizations of the miners and workers. And that cost is being paid right
now in the deteriorating conditions for those living in the townships.
- Original Message -
From: "Marv Gandall"
To: "David Schanoes"
Sent: Sunday, October 18, 2009 8:40 PM
Su
Artesian writes:
[...]
> If, however, you're referring to the the type of deal struck by de Klerk,
> Botha with Mandela, then preserving "cultural identity" of the minority is
> a
> non-issue at best, a joke at worst, as the economic and social power of
> the
> minority has been preserved.
=
On Oct 18, 2009, at 3:43 PM, Dennis Brasky wrote:
> Self determination means the oppressed nation BY AND FOR ITSELF
> makes decisions concerning its status without feeling the need to
> get approval...
And exactly how do 'Marxist" Wilsonians think such a granfalloon as a
"nation" is suppos
decisions and actions should be taken.
- Original Message -
From: "Marv Gandall"
To: "David Schanoes"
Sent: Sunday, October 18, 2009 3:14 PM
Subject: Re: [Marxism] self determination for oppressors
YOU MUST clip all ex
AM
Subject: Re: [Marxism] self determination for oppressors
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On Sun, Oct 18, 2009 at 10:35 AM, Marv Gandall wrote:
>
> So you are both saying that, following the dissolution of the Zionist
> state,
> you would not support cultural rights for the Hebrew-speaking minority and
> even a limited measure of political autonomy as an interim measure PROVIDED
> thes
On Sat, Oct 17, 2009 at 6:09 AM, Bhaskar Sunkara
wrote:
> "The project to found Israel as a settler state was and still is ?a
> crime?,
> said comrade Conrad. But that crime has resulted in the coming into
> being
> of
> an Israeli Jewish, or Hebrew, nation and a working class solution must
>
wrote:
> One state-solution theorists admit that their triumph would lead to a mass
> exodus of a large percentage of the current population of Israel.
I read lots of one-state literature and that's news to me.
Emotionally, I am for every single Russian immigrant from the 1970s on
-- starting wit
i put Marv on moderation for a couple days until he gets clipping text
straight.
Les
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-
From: "Louis Proyect"
To: "Marv Gandall"
Sent: Sunday, October 18, 2009 10:08 AM
Subject: Re: [Marxism] self determination for oppressors
> Marv Gandall wrote:
>> It's not possible to conceive of a socialist revolution in
>> Palestine/Israel
>&
Artesian writes:
> Dennis is quite write to point out that there is no such thing as
> self-determination for the Afrikaners in South Africa, for the Israelis in
> the Middle East, just as the French in Algeria were not entitled to, nor
> struggling for self-determination.
=
Bhaskar Sunkara wrote:
> I would be wary of such a "solution" though Louis. France in 1940 is a good
> example of how fast a terribly oppressive people can transformed into an
> oppressed group in a flash. Demographically it's also a different game than
> in Algeria and South Africa and I think i
I would be wary of such a "solution" though Louis. France in 1940 is a good
example of how fast a terribly oppressive people can transformed into an
oppressed group in a flash. Demographically it's also a different game than
in Algeria and South Africa and I think it does matter--- in terms of ho
-
From: "Louis Proyect"
To: "Marv Gandall"
Sent: Sunday, October 18, 2009 10:08 AM
Subject: Re: [Marxism] self determination for oppressors
> Marv Gandall wrote:
>> It's not possible to conceive of a socialist revolution in
>> Palestine/Israel
>&
Someday I will produce a post without typos etc. I don't know when, but the
odds say sooner or later, I will.
- Original Message -
From: "S. Artesian"
To: "David Schanoes"
Sent: Sunday, October 18, 2009 10:16 AM
Subject: Re: [Marxism] self det
18, 2009 9:49 AM
Subject: Re: [Marxism] self determination for oppressors
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Marv Gandall wrote:
> It's not possible to conceive of a socialist revolution in Palestine/Israel
> which would not involve the participation of the Jewish masses, and if such
> were to come to pass, the question of a "Jewish state", especially in terms
> of what it has come to represent, would be
Dennis Brasky writes:
If the Israeli Jews are offered self determination after the coming
socialist revolution, what form will that take? Won't it be a Jewish state
in Palestine - where the Palestinians would want their state? But the Jews
already have such a state, so why do they need a revolutio
On Sat, Oct 17, 2009 at 6:09 AM, Bhaskar Sunkara
wrote:
> "The project to found Israel as a settler state was and still is “a crime”,
> said comrade Conrad. But that crime has resulted in the coming into being
> of
> an Israeli Jewish, or Hebrew, nation and a working class solution must
> recognis
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