Dear friends in Open Space
Thanks for bringing this issue up again!
I do talk with my sponsors about givens.
There are so many things to this but I will start off by describing the
overall process I use facilitating OS-meetings.
I use the basic design worked out by Birgitt Williams in working
As someone utterly new and as a non-practitioner I have been trying to
decode the conversation about "givens" -- so I bring my context to the
interpretative endeavour.
I write. Mostly short fiction and non-fiction and I belong to a creative
writing circle where we discuss our
So, when you ask the sponsor "are there any givens?"
aren't you acccepting the command and control way?
Could't that be rephrased as, for instance, "are there
any ideas or conclusions that you consider
undiscussable in this meeting?" (and then proceed in
the same di
Dear All
I must confess to a habitual turn-off when it comes to "givens." If
we start with restrictions, how do we get to possibilities?
I realise this is a struggle between what might be and what likely
will be, but cannot events capture hearts and minds and just do it?
As my humble
Thanks to Birgitt for her clarification on "givens."
I have found for myself, that coming up with the "right" theme and givens to be
the most challenging part of creating a successful program, and Birgitt's
reminder of some of the issues that might need to be brought up
I am not quite sure why the specification and definition of "Givens" should
have butted its way into my consciousness - but it did and frankly I was
rather surprised at the intensity of the feelings (thoughts) evoked. Anyhow,
I let my fingers do the walking and the following appeared on
Thomas -- I knew you were out there somewhere! On the subject of "Givens"
and how you use them -- I would guess that it is ultimately a matter of
personal preference and comfort (the facilitator's personal preference and
comfort). As I said when I started all this, I felt uncomfort
Hi HO
Just to clarify, the givens in this school-example are about to define where
we (I´m part of the board of the school) would like to have help from the
parents, not to deny conversations. The OS-meeting will be the start of a
new organization for the parents-involvement so everyone will
Florian--
<< every given will change.
Florian, this is a "winner" and is going in my favorite quotes file!
:-Doug. Germann
Seeking people making community change.
*
*
==
osl...@l
Harison,
great stuff. I didn't know that the "man with the hat" is a rebell against
authorities! Now I can understand the passion in your fight against "givens"
and for "real open space". Keep that way
Erich
http://listserv.boisestate.edu/a
I appreciate this thread very much --
There may be 2 different definitions of "givens" here. The difference is
subtle, but important.
For me, it's not "what cannot be discussed." I always say to a client: there is
no way to restrict what gets talked about in Open S
Jeff: I think you are on to something.
"Container" or "Givens" or things that are not intended to be on the
table by the sponsor of an event are both social constructions and
acknowledgement of "something" that is there. If I sit on a chair, that
is gone, I will
I think I am becoming clearer about my point of discomfort with "Givens."
Real Givens (as opposed to apparent) are truly immutable, or as close to it
as such things go on Planet Earth. And for me that would include Gravity and
the force of Self-organization, and maybe a few others wh
p.org
> Original Message
> From: Harrison Owen
> To: osl...@listserv.boisestate.edu
> Date: Fri, Nov-26-2004 9:00 AM
> Subject: Re: givens
>
> I think I am becoming clearer about my point of discomfort with
> "Givens."
> Real Givens (as opposed to apparent
So it's "2 steps before OS", right?
- accept/recognise the power of informal organization
- ask if they want that power
- go ahead with theme etc
Sure looks easy. :-?
Lucas
--- Jack Ricchiuto escribió:
> It is the recognition that the
> watercooler of serendipity - the informal organization -
At 11:48 AM 2/27/2003 +, Kerry wrote:
I realise this is a struggle between what might be and what likely
will be, but cannot events capture hearts and minds and just do it?
As my humble daily Zen calender recorded on 1 January, "it is never
too late to do nothing."
Thank you Zen Calender!
On 2/27/03 8:02 AM, "Harrison Owen" wrote:
> No day is so bad it can't be fixed with a nap.
>
>
>
Yes, indeed!
As long as we¹re playing the quote game, here¹s the one that I keep on the
wall by my desk to guide me whenever I think I have figured out what really
happens in open space. I cite
Re: givensFollowing our three day Os workshop I took three naps on Saturday .
My day was really fixed.
Audrey
- Original Message -
From: Ralph Copleman
To: osl...@listserv.boisestate.edu
Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2003 9:26 AM
Subject: Re: givens
On 2/27/03 8:02 AM
Hi Kerry -- love the saying!
As to givens -- I often think of them as untested and/or unspoken
assumptions -- whenever we articulate those -- they are up for change at a
much faster rate...
cheers
J
Judith Richardson
Pono Consultants International
Facilitating the Flow
of Inspired
," Ngarinyin elder David Mowaljarlai told us.
Regards
Helen
- Original Message -
From: Ralph Copleman
To: osl...@listserv.boisestate.edu
Sent: Friday, February 28, 2003 3:26 AM
Subject: Re: givens
On 2/27/03 8:02 AM, "Harrison Owen" wrote:
No da
Judi,
You have said a very important point about "givens". So much of what happens
in organizations, including regarding an OST meeting is buried within the
world of assumptions. Any help that can be given to test them and speak them
assists in getting at reality rather than illusion (c
On 2/28/03 12:44 AM, "Helen Patterson" wrote:
> "What's important is beyond all understanding - that's the first thing you
> must understand," Ngarinyin elder David Mowaljarlai told us.
Wow.
Talk about having your world rocked!
Ralph
*
*
=
In a message dated 9/25/00 5:48:36 AM Central Daylight Time, ji...@wfc.com.tw
writes:
<< Too many givens indicates a need to:
(a) refine the question/theme so that it is focused enough to operate with
fewer givens
(b) refine the givens or
(c) use another method than open space.
I
Birgitt did us all a real service in articulating and clarifying the role of
"givens" in creating the conditions for an Open Space event and in ongoing
processes in organizations. I work with every client for Open Space (or any
other whole system intervention for that matter) to clarif
arch lab) that was losing business. I offered up
Open Space and every member of the team was all for it but one -- the
director of the organization. It was in the discussion of the givens that
her reasoning became clear. Deep in her core, she felt is was her
responsibility to set the organizati
rs I have faciliated and co-faciliated approx. 30
open space gatherings in this part of the world, I have found that the
pondering over givens has rarely made a difference..
Your missile this morning was so great that I just had to acknowledge your
thoughts. I say hurray...no mo
Cathy and Harrison:
I agree that the fewer givens "dictated" the better. And I wonder if this
doesn't highlight the need for clarity in the crafting of the invitation. I
believe it important in that people do need to know whether they are being
asked to come to ma
view the archives Visit:
http://listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html
-Original Message-
From: OSLIST [mailto:osl...@listserv.boisestate.edu] On Behalf Of catherine
carmody
Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2004 10:41 AM
To: osl...@listserv.boisestate.edu
Subject: Re: Givens -- Again
As a lo
Ester Wrote: I agree that the fewer givens "dictated" the better. And I
wonder if this doesn't highlight the need for clarity in the crafting of
the invitation. I believe it important in that people do need to know
whether they are being asked to come to make decisions or
--- Harrison Owen wrote:
> And
> in all cases I find the compulsion to specify Givens
> to be prejudicial,
> pejorative and demeaning - all productive of an
> atmosphere diametrically
> opposite to sort I would hope for at the onset of
> Open Space.
Amen!
Aleluia!
(I a
meet. This begins the process of
thinking about how life may be different post-OS. Sometimes I suggest that
the leadership team identify their unspoken assumptions and challenge them.
I can only think of two situations where it seemed that "givens" were needed.
In one case, there wa
rely,
Cathy
- Original Message -
From: "Harrison Owen"
To:
Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2004 12:03 PM
Subject: Re: Givens -- Again
> Thanks Cathy for the kind words. . . but I am wondering. Was your use of
the
> word "missile" ("Your missile this morning was so g
--- Harrison Owen wrote:
> Thirdly, specifying Givens limits the space of possibility.
> The net result is almost inevitably the sub-optimization of group
> performance. Simply put, when some areas/elements are placed outside
> the arena of discussion, powerful and valid approaches t
Harrison & co.
I promised myself not to get snookered into this "givens" vortex
again, but, alas, my willpower is weak.
Taking Esther's point that it is easier to put everything on the
table when dealing with community issues, we still cannot deny the
spirit of Open Space, w
I tried for a while to integrate the practice of identifying givens
and developing conversation in the pre-meetings around these things.
The last time I did it, the conversation about the givens became so
large that the whole event was postponed indefinitely.
Since then, there was one case where
ere was no discussion about givens (by me anyway). This was a bunch
of academics (about 60 people) who had been thrown together from
various institutes and campuses under a new umbrella, without any
consultation (of course) and with an ongoing process to appoint a new
head of school. They sat in a
Yay Viv!
This is exactly as it really should be. We make a pretty big deal
about Open Space. My last client implored me not to talk about the
process, just to facilitate the meeting. I told him that's why I
offer a practice workshop: so we can talk about the process. I
assured him that I was t
agree very much. opening space is crossing and opening bounderies,
bounderies, the so called givens, are set under the status quo ante which is
to change, because it´s changing itself anyway.
in my very first open space some years ago, which I facilitated on my own
risk, accompanied by michael
Am 18.11.2004 16:41 Uhr schrieb "catherine carmody" unter
:
> Keep the thoughts coming Harrison...
> Sincerely,
> Cathy Carmody
> Halifax, N.S.
>
>
take a kiss, cathy,
your enthusiasm is beautiful!
florian
*
*
==
osl...@listserv.boisest
n't even mention open space technology when opening space.
> There was no discussion about givens (by me anyway).
This raises a question I've been meaning to ask the group--
I've opened space 3 times now. I've been wondering how much other people
talk during the openi
jack
jack ricchiuto
two.one.six/three.seven.three/seven.four.seven.five
www.designinglife.com / www.appreciativeleadership.org
> Original Message
> From: Jennifer Hurley
> To: osl...@listserv.boisestate.edu
> Date: Fri, Nov-19-2004 1:03 PM
> Subject: R
I didn't even mention open space technology when
> opening space.
> There was no discussion about givens (by me anyway).
> This was a bunch
> of academics (about 60 people) who had been thrown
> together from
> various institutes and campuses under a new
> umbrella, without
te.edu/archives/oslist.html
-Original Message-
From: OSLIST [mailto:osl...@listserv.boisestate.edu] On Behalf Of Jennifer
Hurley
Sent: Friday, November 19, 2004 12:53 PM
To: osl...@listserv.boisestate.edu
Subject: Re: Givens -- Again
On 11/18/04 11:38 PM, "Viv McWaters" wrote:
On 20/11/2004, at 6:14 AM, Artur Silva wrote:
Viv:
If you didn't tell the client that you were going to
use OST, can you please clarify how did you justify
the need for many spaces with chairs in circles?
Artur
I told them I needed a large space for a range of activities, wall
space, break
It took a long time to respond here (reading is much easier than writing in
English), but my contribution is:
I saw a lot coming along about givens. I wonder what is the issue.
Maybe the thing is about the responsibility of a facilitator.
If you sense that the givens are too much, you just have
: Nov 19, 2004 9:52 AM
To: osl...@listserv.boisestate.edu
Subject: Re: Givens -- Again
On 11/18/04 11:38 PM, "Viv McWaters" wrote:
> The other day I opened space and broke most of the rules - I didn't
> tell my client I was going to use open space, there was no mention of
>
Thomas
http://www.openpeople.info/index.php/VirtualFlashMobs/GlobalLearnDay8SessionSchedule
Here you may find people interested in Education - just today it's
Global Learn Day. I haven't been able to participate - there were
voice conversations - I think it still goes on at this hour.
Learning
This brings to mind something else on "givens": Harrison suggests "the law of
gravity." Jennifer writes about city planning and OST.
I suggest there are "givens" of planet Earth. Dr. Karl-Henrik Robert and his
colleagues with The Natural Step developed four eleg
Dear Ray,
I think this is a wonderful discussion that gets me all excited
because it is about me being facilitator.
Givens to me are neither "boundaries" nor "limits".
What I care about is that the givens in an organisation/system are
stated.
To me, thats part of my job to re
hi michael.
i appreciate learning some of our community's history
around the word practitioner. this is very helpful for
me.
at the same time, i'd like to suggest that anyone who
wants to can "mess with it" if s/he discovers that it
doesn't work well in his or her context or with
his/her communit
to "G " knows who? makes for a different dialogue.
I don't know how far we are down the path to a no return but I thought I
would no longer be a silent whose consent is concluded to be implicit.
Diane Gibeault
Michelle Cooper wrote:
Since this seems to be proceeding anyway, i
o constitute some form of community. I felt an
essential part of Michelle's note on the issue of givens was about that
sense of community ("sharing, deeply personal conversations, creating a
safe place...") This does not mean we do not welcome people who share
that interest, people that
Hi all:
What I find interesting is that everyone that spoke
this time seems to be in accordance that "givens" are
useless (with some minor observations of caution, in
some cases).
This compares with the big discussions in the previous
times the question was raised. Of course, I am happ
Ditto.- Original Message - From: "kerry napuk" To: osl...@listserv.boisestate.edu Subject: more givens again Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 20:58:06 + > > Harrison & co. > > I promised myself not to get snookered into this "givens" vortex > again, but,
Chris
Your handling of "givens" is positively clever and thanks for posting
it. However, does not the objective remain to remove the "givens"
from the agenda and allow free exchange and dialogue?
What do you do when the sponsor hangs onto "givens" and refuses
On Sat, 20 Nov 2004 15:27:40 +, kerry napuk wrote:
> Chris
>
> Your handling of "givens" is positively clever and thanks for posting
> it. However, does not the objective remain to remove the "givens"
> from the agenda and allow free exchange and dialogue
Chris wrote: "I have no problem identifying and naming real givens in order
to overcome them. I don't like to "create" givens that limit the endeavour
in order to maintain the illusion of comfort and control. People are capable
of the most amazing transformations. Telli
"Thomas Herrmann" <mailto:tho...@openspaceconsulting.com> schrieb:
> Hi HO
> Just to clarify, the givens in this school-example are about to define where
> we (I´m part of the board of the school) would like to have help from the
> parents, not to deny conversations
hope to meet you again soon!
Kind regards
Thomas
-Ursprungligt meddelande-
Från: OSLIST [mailto:osl...@listserv.boisestate.edu]För Marei Kiele
Skickat: den 7 december 2004 11:26
Till: osl...@listserv.boisestate.edu
Ämne: Re: givens and serendipity
"Thomas Herrmann" &
u,
Marei
---Ursprüngliche Nachricht---
Absender: "Thomas Herrmann"
Empfänger:
Betreff: SV: givens and serendipity
Dear Marei
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I think you are right, I do have some belief
change work to do. This conversation has helped me a lot regarding this, and
your c
Greetings all!
I have been following Doug Germann's thread, "Halfway to..." and
Elwin's "Evaluations of Open Space in Novi Sad, Serbia" with interest.
It seems that you are saying Harrison that you are not sure the notion
of givens as offered as a way of working wit
Oui, Raymond. Kinda like the inverse of "degrees of freedom" like they used
to say in mathematics (at least in the olden days). I think it is useful to
add (or remind ourselves) that there is a 'time' element here too; that
'givens' are a statement at a point in
Oui, Raymond. Kinda like the inverse of "degrees of freedom" like they used
to say in mathematics (at least in the olden days). I think it is useful to
add (or remind ourselves) that there is a 'time' element here too; that
'givens' are a statement at a point in
exactly. anyone can call any of this anything they want in their work
or on the list, as you say. i don't have any problem with that. i'm
not interested in making or enforcing any standards. god knows i've got
my hands quite full just trying to keep up with the demands for new
wiki's! oh yes,
In a message dated 06/28/2000 1:51:51 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
d...@cyberus.ca writes:
<< Who's there on the egroup (web accessed) will no longer be answerable it
seems >>
Diane, it sounds as if you're concerned that once on the web, the oslist is
more accessible to the public - to strangers.
ion an
talking to "G " knows who? makes for a different dialogue.
I don't know how far we are down the path to a no return but I thought I
would no longer be a silent whose consent is concluded to be implicit.
Diane Gibeault
Michelle Cooper wrote:
Since this seems to be proce
Diane:
I thank you for raising the idea of givens around egroups etc...we should
walk our talk after all.
For me, I actually found OSLIST by surfing, so I have a soft spot for making
it open. However, I'm careful with my stories to not "out" organizations or
communities I'
te some form of community. I felt an
essential part of Michelle's note on the issue of givens was about that
sense of community ("sharing, deeply personal conversations, creating a
safe place...") This does not mean we do not welcome people who share
that interest, people that I see
Diane, Murli, Chris and others;
I have not been able to follow all of the conversations on the list as
quickly as others these past weeks. Thanks for the follow up to my query. My
question was not really in regard to technology or no technology, but about
the givens. Murli's response as t
Michelle, you probably have a good point here about the givens, especially
for people who joined much after OSLIST was created, back in late 1996. We
got the thing off the ground without messing around with details, just to
have something for the OST community to use for engaging in dialogue
was sleeping ;-)
Truly Artur, Harrison et al, I've enjoyed hearing people's perspective that
articulating givens isn't needed and has a dampening effect on the
proceedings. The "track record" of people like Kerry holding space for
successful events of all kinds speaks for itsel
Fascinating discussion.
I don't think givens are always useless. I do agree that they
can limit creativity and exploration. I also think there is
another aspect to the issue.
Sometimes I'd rather be free to explore within a known boundary
than not know when I was going to drop off t
space with your clients in the true sense of
the word 'open'. Why talk about Open Space in a way that may close it
(albeit in a subtle way) by drawing boundaries, and 'givens' and to do's
etc I have been wondering how I would approach a client with Open Space
without
ehalf Of Bob Dick
Sent: Friday, November 19, 2004 5:43 PM
To: osl...@listserv.boisestate.edu
Subject: Re: Givens -- Again : some comments
Fascinating discussion.
I don't think givens are always useless. I do agree that they
can limit creativity and exploration. I also think there is
another aspect
form part of this context
Doris (an avid reader and not often writer)
-Oorspronkelijk bericht-
Van: OSLIST [mailto:osl...@listserv.boisestate.edu]Namens Bob Dick
Verzonden: vrijdag 19 november 2004 23:43
Aan: osl...@listserv.boisestate.edu
Onderwerp: Re: Givens -- Again : some
Doris
How do you deal with an issue in the here and now unless it appears
in real time during an event? My problem with "givens" is that it
can become an invitation for a sponsor to remove a burning issue from
the agenda before it ever sees the light of day.
Maybe it would be usefu
rchives Visit:
http://listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html
-Original Message-
From: OSLIST [mailto:osl...@listserv.boisestate.edu] On Behalf Of kerry
napuk
Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2004 10:27 AM
To: osl...@listserv.boisestate.edu
Subject: Re: Givens: yet more comments
Doris
How
of the sponsor discussable.
But, as you recall, my main point about "givens" has
always been the word itself. Who "gives" the "givens"?
It must be some sort of unquestionable authority.
Unless they would not be called "givens"...
So, when you ask the sponsor &qu
In a complicated way, I think givens can be very empowering. But they
have to be real givens.
I think the last time I talked about this a couple of years ago, I
used the story of people inventing the airplane. The Wright brothers
had a good sense of the givens of flight: gravity, air pressure
- Original Message -
From: "Artur Silva"
To:
Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2004 8:51 PM
Subject: Re: Givens -- Again : some comments
> Thanks, for speaking up, Chris.
>
>
> --- chris weaver wrote:
> > So, Artur, Harrison, et al: Does this hurt the
>
In a message dated 11/19/04 3:24:47 PM, hho...@comcast.net writes:
> Bob wrote: "Sometimes I'd rather be free to explore within a known boundary
> than not know when I was going to drop off the edge of the
> world."
>
> I guess I could say something like . . . only a flatlander worries about
> f
hat will build an ant hill within the space of the travel abilities of the
> ants (the container) but you cannot say where it will emerge, but emerge it
> will.
>
That's certainly the kind of givens I am speaking of, and the kind
Harrison means too I think when he talks about grav
Chris,
Your talk about containers reminded me of an exchange on this list from
several years ago (below). As I re-read it, it occurred to me that the
question about "how much space" is relevant to givens which constrain space.
BTW, I've come to understand the theme, coupled with
--- Harrison Owen wrote:
> (...) However, I
> guess I wouldn't think of
> Butterflies and Bumble Bees as beside the point.
> They both flow naturally
> from The Law of Two Feet -- and that Law (in my
> opinion) is the grease that
> lubricates the whole thing.
I agree, Harrison. Interestingly you
.edu/archives/oslist.html
-Original Message-
From: OSLIST [mailto:osl...@listserv.boisestate.edu] On Behalf Of Artur
Silva
Sent: Friday, November 19, 2004 2:37 PM
To: osl...@listserv.boisestate.edu
Subject: Re: Givens -- Again : law and butterflies
--- Harrison Owen wrote:
> (...) H
Hi Anu
On 20/11/2004, at 9:55 AM, Anu Parmar wrote:
I've gotten some idea on how you have done it but I would love to
hear more on how you 'sold' this idea (without explaining what OS is)
to
academics for them to invest their time and energy in this forum. As
well
how long, in terms of days wa
In a message dated 11/19/04 11:52:35 AM, hho...@comcast.net writes:
> Also (contrary to what I
> said before) there is something useful about "vamping until ready" but I
> don't think the talk has much to do with the passage of information -- at
> least not verbal information. It is rather about
On Fri, 26 Nov 2004 15:18:14 EST, Joelle Lyons Everett
wrote:
>
> I like the concept of "vamping until ready." It puts a name to a
> phenomenon that I have experienced. Seems that it takes a little time at
> the start of the meeting to let everyone arrive in the room, bring back the
> attention
Since I have made a break a "formal" part of the os-events I
facilitate (if the sponsor opens the space at 9 am the gathering
begins at 8:30 with a break and the buffet with coffee and juices and
fruit all set up at 8:30) people are very much present when they sit
in the circle at 9:00.
It appears
Michael--
I agree with you about having a break before the meeting. When the client
agrees to that, and when people come a few minutes early, you are absolutely
right--people are more fully present and we can just begin.
Why sleepless?
Joelle
*
*
every now and then or actually pretty often well in fact most of the
time I get pretty excited about os and stuff and then I forget to
sleep take a look at the watch and realize, gads, its three in the
morning and I got to take Sabine to school at 7
thats what I meant with sleepless
mmp
--Origina
Hello dear Joelle
Thank you for your marvelous story. I really liked it. I am not so sure if
you will like my conclusions from that story.
I think that I have already referred in the past the quotation from Piaget
that I translate as "Givens (or data) are never given to us; they are
creat
Michael and Birgitt--
Could you both say a little more about "where the bridge touches the
ground?"
:-Doug. Germann
*
*
==
osl...@listserv.boisestate.edu
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To subscribe, unsubscribe
Thanks, Michael.
:-Doug.
*
*
==
osl...@listserv.boisestate.edu
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view the archives of osl...@listserv.boisestate.edu,
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>
> How can we open the space if we previously asked the sponsor to close
the
> space, by "giving" the "givens"? How can we later facilitate
empowerment
> if
> we are helping the manager to disempower the people in the first
place?
>
Artur, I reall
Arthur,
I accept responsibility for introducing the concept of "givens" into the
preparation of facilitating an OST meeting. I like what Chris Corrigan wrote
about the real work of the "givens" is to get at the holes in the
assumptions about and perceived "givens", wh
Dear Birgitt,
decades before I ever heard of open space (now knowing it was always
there) it was part of my basic OD-craftsmanship to deal with the
givens in the sense that I encouraged the client to pay attention to
them which often meant putting them on the table for the first time
for everyone
At 12:20 19-02-2003 +0100, Pannwitz, Michael M wrote:
In my practice I charge a flat fee for facilitating an os-event. It
includes the planning sessions, setting up the room etc., being the
facilitator and conducting a followup meeting. If the client does not
want the follow up, still the same f
;) now...
I accept responsibility for introducing the concept of "givens" into the
preparation of facilitating an OST meeting. I like what Chris Corrigan wrote
about the real work of the "givens" is to get at the holes in the
assumptions about and perceived "givens",
Dear Artur,
here is the story on the follow up meeting (my present practice).
1. The date for the follow up meeting, including beginning and ending
time and the location are set by the planning group even before the
invitation for the os is distributed.
2. The information under 1. is included promi
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