or is it simply a matter of ideology, i.e., what's in people's heads,
something that can be solved if we simply reveal that it's wrong and
if we
use correct forms of speech and discourage others from using
incorrect speech?
jim, many whom you might call pomos are idealists, but not all by any
on a less complex matter than why people do the things they do...
does anyone have any replies to tom's query on formal and real
subsumption? i'd be grateful if anyone had any ideas on this at all.
angela
Doug:
How about Fred Jameson? Is he one of the defilers too? What's wrong with
hybridizing, anyway? Is there some threat of impurity or something? And
what's postmodernism again? I keep forgetting.
Fred Jameson? I have never found any compelling reason to read him. I just
might go to my grave
Friends,
I seem to recall that Doug was highly critical of Burbach. They had an
exchange in teh URPE Newsletter awhile back.
michael yates
Louis Proyect wrote:
Louis, I don't know if you're signed on or not but i hope you get this.
while I am not a particular fan of much of what is
Jim wrote:
It seems to me that any author who does not disclose
the funding of the research that went into an article
should not have that article published in any respectable
journal.
We were not talking about respectable journals, but
those of the economics profession. What do other
Louis Proyect wrote:
Why so odd? After urging people to read Judith Butler, Zizek, Bourdieu for
months on end, one can only draw the conclusion that you've drifted apart
from Marxism, as would describe my personal relationships over the years.
You have no idea what Bourdieu writes about, do
Friends,
I seem to recall that Doug was highly critical of Burbach. They had an
exchange in teh URPE Newsletter awhile back.
michael yates
Burbach and Kargalitsky's book "Globalization and Its Discontents: The Rise
of Postmodern Socialisms" is very much in line with books by William
Greider
I think that we should let Doug Henwood characterize his own thought rather
than impose our own interpretations.
--
Michael Perelman
Economics Department
California State University
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Chico, CA 95929
530-898-5321
fax 530-898-5901
Michael is quite right. He has urged me not to characterize Doug's thoughts
and I found myself slipping back into that mode again yesterday. After
writing something and hitting the enter key, I slapped my forehead and
said, "Goddamnit, that was a characterization, what got into me?". In a
way,
Paul,
As you well know, I respect your knowledge of the situation in
Yugoslavia, both current and former. I find myself very much at odds over
the current situation. I do not like the idea of US troops in Kosovo. I
agree with you that there has been a long term demographic shift with a
Just for the record, I disagree pretty strongly with Burbach and Aronowitz
on lots of things; I'm sure most people who've read my critique of Stanley
on science and work...
Doug
I haven't, but I'd like to...
Brad DeLong
-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
My reading of Marx's real and formal subsumption agrees with Jim Divine's. The
following is a message I sent to Michael and Tom off-line about specific case
that I am working on. Looks like it might be of interest to others, too.
=
Greetings,
If you got other
Doug notes:
The notion that women maquiladora workers
find something liberating in factory work (amidst the harassment and
exploitation) comes from people who've actually talked to them.
And those who do (Tiano, for example, in her book _Patriarchy on the Line_,
or Ong in her book on Malaysia,
Tom Kruse writes: I've just reviewed Marx on "formal" vs. "real"
subsumption of labor to capital, the former understood as "...capital
[making] use of noncapitalist modes of production while leaving the means
of production in the hands of the producers and leaving internal processes
such as
I agree with both Maggie's and Jim's analyses here. I think they capture fundamentals
of the consciousness of racism and sexism. In some senses, those of us who want to
end these problems have our whole theory in the statements Maggie and Jim make here,
and the complexities are in practice,
At 01:37 PM 2/23/99 -0500, Barkley wrote:
Have just received a copy of the _Encyclopedia of
Political Economy_ edited by Phillip Anthony O'Hara,
Routledge, 1999, London, which contains stuff by a lot of
listmembers, some of it not bad.
Anyway, was just looking at the entry on long
Barkley,
I know you trace the problem back to the 89 elimination of
Kosovo's autonomy and to Milosivic's policies, but I do think that is
something of an oversimplification. I was in Yugoslavia around that
time staying with the senior civil servant in the Slovenian foreign
affairs
I wouldn't dismiss Bourdieu so quickly. His book Distinction contains a
welter
of phenomenological insights into how the ruling class is able to
reproduce its
hegemony.
Sam Pawlett
Sam, I enjoy media critics and have read Mark Crispin Miller, Mark
Hertsgaard and Neil Postman with great relish.
Is that esoteric?
Doug
No, what you clipped from my post is what I find esoteric, the notion of
"cultural capital".
Louis Proyect
(http://www.panix.com/~lnp3/marxism.html)
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--CE7858C4FEFDBD7F2307DC6A
Dear Pen-L,
Three to Four Billion Dollars for operations in Bosnia and Kosovo...of
course that's not counting cost over-runs...
Your email pal,
Tom L.
http://www.newsday.com/ap/rnmpin1m.htm
Seems to me that the reasons are obvious and direct as to
why"senstionalized banality" dominates television rather than propaganda
that would raise mass consciousness to overthrow the system. The bourgeois
, the ruling class, tightly control the content of television , because it
is such a
Of course, there are only two main classes in capitalism, but there are middle strata,
a scientifically correct and Marxist category. See, for example, _Contemporary
Capitalism and the Middle Classes_ by S.N. Nadel (Progressive Publishers/International
1982; well you might have to borrow my
From a paper on Bourdieu by Jon Beasley-Murray at the Spoons Archives:
http://lists.village.virginia.edu/~spoons/marxism/jbm.cultcapital.html
Traditionally, only the exchange at the cash register concerns economics.
In Marxist terms, the price paid is related to the book's value which is a
Lou, I'm pleased that my Cuba book was useful to you.
About Harvey review. I want to help make this as sharp as possible, as
there are many Harveyists around. I haven't read his new book and read
Limits to Capital some time ago. But I think I have pretty good sense of
how he thinks, and that
In a message dated 99-02-23 09:56:34 EST, you write:
Maggie, my problem is not with pomos who do their own thing. It is really
with attempts to create a hybrid of Marxism and postmodernism such as Roger
Burbach, Stanley Aronowitz, Antonio Callari and Doug Henwood are doing. A
Monthly Review
In a message dated 99-02-23 12:11:10 EST, Jim Devine writes:
racism can pay for white workers in the
short run but it hurts them in the long run.
Further, because most people don't have the secure position that allows
them to look to the long-term or to act on their perspective, they get
A few years back ahead the student of mine was majoring in women's studies
and economics. She was concerned about whether capitalism and was
compatible with socialism. Eventually she got up enough nerve to get on
Fem-econ and she raised her question, which set off the debate. --
A reporter supposedly asked Papa Doc, what percentage of the population
of Haiti is white? Papa Doc responded 90 percent. The reporter could
not believe what he heard. He asked several times to make sure that got
the right answer. Each time Papa Doc responded in an identical
fashion. Finally,
In a message dated 99-02-23 13:45:26 EST, you write:
I was a small part of this debate, which was productive despite DM's
aggressive, flamer attitude. An edited version was later printed in
FEMINIST ECONOMICS. Marxists among us will note that DM vociferously
defended the proposition that
Paul Phillips wrote:
However, all that is not the point of my critique of Green. Rather
it is his claim that the KLA represents the revolutionary working-
class trying to overthrow the fascist imperialists
Where did I claim this? You actually never bothered to
read the article I
Barkley asked about Hyde Clark. I have a note on him in my new book,
The Natural Instability of Markets -- well in a couple of months it
should appear --
The Search for the Cycle
Economists have proposed numerous alternative explanations for the
business cycle, ranging from the changes in the
Blackboard economicst had been in the works. Some work is being done on
bourgeois virtue, but not nearly at the pace that he had worked before.
Again, I think that the story is that economists have been willing to
embrace Dierdre because Donald had won his stars. Even so, it is one of
the few
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BLS DAILY REPORT, TUESDAY, FEBRUARY 23, 1999
Economic forecasters surveyed quarterly by the Federal Reserve Bank of
Louis writes:I just don't like French thinkers. They are a bunch of
verbose intellectual snobs. I prefer Italians, Peruvians and Trinidadians.
You should check out Dumenil Levy, who do decent Marxian economics (both
theory and empirical work, especially on the rate of profit) despite their
The Times (London)
September 8, 1998, Tuesday
Insults fly in Left Bank cafes as intellectuals court screen fame
From Adam Sage in Paris
FRENCH intellectuals have cast aside their highbrow prose and pretensions
to swap playground insults in a row over their unstinting efforts to appear
on
Doug Henwood [EMAIL PROTECTED] 02/23/99 02:34PM
His book On Television is actually critical of the concentration analysis;
you may remember that I quoted it against (shy, retiring) Mark Crispin
Miller right here on PEN-L. He argues instead that the sensationalized
banality of the media
I have vowed not to get into any arguments over Marxism, but here I am
going to break my vow, because I think the issues are important. There
are (at least) two things wrong with Louis' statement.
1. There is no such thing as an iron law of capital accumulation that
leads to concentration.
Paul,
I agree with you vis a vis the KLA. Guess I'm glad that a settlement
has been reached, if it means a cessation of bloodshed in the area, although
it may lead to worse stuff down the road, depending on details, details...
I also did not say that the ending of Kosovo autonomy in
Barkley:
Bourdieu's concept is not exactly Marxist but is a lot closer in that
it emphasizes social relations. He develops it in the context of
traditional societies and sees at as a kind of balancing between people in
terms of obligations. Thus a Northwestern American Indian might gain
Louis Proyect wrote:
The model for FAIR and the Nation is the sort of anti-monopolist crusades
of the turn-of-the-century. It has lots in common with Ralph Nader's
crusade against Microsoft and other such neo-progressivist efforts. What
they seem to miss is that concentration of capital is not a
Barkley Rosser wrote:
I should add beyond my earlier message that indeed Deirdre has
published a book since the sex-change, which is doing quite well, I believe.
"Blackboard Economics" is in the title, but I don't remember the whole
thing. All in all, I would say that Deirdre is enjoying
Have just received a copy of the _Encyclopedia of
Political Economy_ edited by Phillip Anthony O'Hara,
Routledge, 1999, London, which contains stuff by a lot of
listmembers, some of it not bad.
Anyway, was just looking at the entry on long waves,
written by the editior (O'Hara) who
Tom Kruse wrote:
Doug notes:
The notion that women maquiladora workers
find something liberating in factory work (amidst the harassment and
exploitation) comes from people who've actually talked to them.
And those who do (Tiano, for example, in her book _Patriarchy on the Line_,
or Ong in her
I should add beyond my earlier message that indeed Deirdre has
published a book since the sex-change, which is doing quite well, I believe.
"Blackboard Economics" is in the title, but I don't remember the whole
thing. All in all, I would say that Deirdre is enjoying something of a
celebrity
Maggie writes: Not to speak for Angela but to talk about false
consciousness -- i think that racist or sexist beliefs ARE a form of false
consciousness. For example, whites who believe they are superior because
of their skin color can use this belief in superiority to justify all kinds
of self
Frank thinks the concept of mode of production is irrelevant, that
concepts like feudalism and capitalism "are useless for the analysis
and understanding of world history. He derides that very rich Marxist
debate over modes of production as "analogous to those about how many
angels can dance
Brad De Long wrote:
Just for the record, I disagree pretty strongly with Burbach and Aronowitz
on lots of things; I'm sure most people who've read my critique of Stanley
on science and work...
Doug
I haven't, but I'd like to...
http://www.panix.com/~dhenwood/Jobless_future.html.
Doug
Along with the disclosure requirements, could we not
have an energetic
discussion about just what kind of organizations the
foundations are. I
think a wider exposure of the Heritage Foundation
would do some good.
I can't imagine a bigger yawn than revelations
about where Heritage gets
Louis Proyect wrote:
Burbach and Kargalitsky's book "Globalization and Its Discontents: The Rise
of Postmodern Socialisms" is very much in line with books by William
Greider and Richard Barnet that view the spread of multinational
corporations as an unmitigated evil, particularly in the
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BLS DAILY REPORT, FRIDAY, FEBRUARY 19, 1999
RELEASED TODAY:
CPI -- The CPI-U rose 0.1 percent in January, the
Louis Proyect wrote:
The big picture is about the relevance of Marxism.
Social Text and Rethinking Marxism are trying to redeem the Marxist project
with massive transfusions of postmodernist ideology. I reject this approach
since it would blunt its effectiveness. Journals like these are
Along with the disclosure requirements, could we not have an energetic
discussion about just what kind of organizations the foundations are. I
think a wider exposure of the Heritage Foundation would do some good.
I don't think anybody would be shocked to find labor union money going
to EPI.
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this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.
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BLS DAILY REPORT, MONDAY, FEBRUARY 22, 1999
_Inflation remained largely absent in January, with the consumer price
Friends,
The Deidre McCloskey referred to used to be Donald McCloskey. She had a
sex-change operation I believe so that her physical appearance would be
attuned to the fact that she thought of herself as a woman. As Donald,
she was well-known for her work in the rhetoric of economics. I have
Louis Proyect wrote:
Maggie, my problem is not with pomos who do their own thing. It is really
with attempts to create a hybrid of Marxism and postmodernism such as Roger
Burbach, Stanley Aronowitz, Antonio Callari and Doug Henwood are doing.
How about Fred Jameson? Is he one of the defilers
Louis, I don't know if you're signed on or not but i hope you get this.
while I am not a particular fan of much of what is lumped under post
modernist
writing, I also find myself in disagreement which much of what is written
under the title "Marxism." So I fail to understand why you are
NY Times, February 23, 1999
Two Cabinet Secretaries Held in Contempt Over Problems in Indian Trust
Accounts
By TIMOTHY EGAN
For nearly a century, American Indians have been asking the federal
government for a simple accounting of money and land held in trust for them
since the days of treaty
Tom Kruse writes: I've just reviewed Marx on "formal" vs. "real"
subsumption of labor to capital, the former understood as
"...capital
[making] use of noncapitalist modes of production while leaving the
means
of production in the hands of the producers and leaving internal
processes
such as
hi jim,
sorry, i got people a bit confused by not quoting tom kruse's original
post when i asked this. i do know what real and formal subsumption
refers to, and i would even add to your preliminary but excellent
remarks below that these concepts bear a difficult relation to those
marx used in
carrol wrote:
For an extreme example of how this practice of attacking categories
unattached to proper names creates nonsense. On one of these lists
a week or so ago some idiot created two categories, one a category
of poor whites all of whom were assumed to be racist slobs, and a
category of
chaz wrote:
In this regard, socalled postmodernism is not much different than
theories about long waves in economics. How does the theory of long
waves, even of the "longue duree" , contribute to overthrowing
capitalism ? What is its PRACTICE ?
WHAT IS TO BE DONE ?
now chaz, i know you're
jim wrote:
That's why I used the phrase "some of the PoMos lean toward the
latter"
(the idealist interpretation). Since I have never read all of, or
even a
lion's share of, the PoMo literature (not to mention all of the
Post-Structuralist, Post-Marxist, Post-Colonial, or Post Toasties
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