I apologize for bringing flame to pen-l. Still, labeling a great revolutionary an
evil murderer understandably will evoke passionate response, making
"ultra-rightist idiot" a rather mild refute by comparison.
I owe the list a serious summation of Mao's role in the Great Leap Forward.
In order
At 05:14 PM 6/1/99 -0400, Max Sawicky wrote:
I'm ready to get off this bus. I see no movement towards efforts
to protect Kosovars or their interests by Nato. In light of this
deficiency, we've only got what amount to serial atrocities by
Nato.
I could see potential merit in a rescue invasion,
BLS DAILY REPORT, TUESDAY, JUNE 1, 1999
BLS on May 28 released new factors by which the agency will adjust raw
payroll employment data based on seasonal variations. BLS bases the new
factors on more complete information regarding monthly seasonal fluctuations
in employment. The new factors
On Wednesday, June 2, 1999 at 05:02:51 (-0400) Henry C.K. Liu writes:
I apologize for bringing flame to pen-l. Still, labeling a great
revolutionary an evil murderer understandably will evoke passionate
response, making "ultra-rightist idiot" a rather mild refute by
comparison. I owe the list a
At 10:16 PM 6/1/99 -0500, Yoshie asked:
How wojtek finds psychology in my comments remains a mystery.
Yoshie, you replied to the objections to the concept of "racial guilt"
raised by Rod Hay by implying that such guilt is based in facts like
seggregation, war on crime, etc. It is thus quite
I believe Brad gets his body counts from the William F. Buckley/CIA history service,
which must go through great pains to lie about the history of communism, because the
murders of capitalism are so much worse. Neither the Soviet Union nor China launched
wars in the periods of Stalin and Mao.
On your three points,
Point 1: Read again. DeLong wrote:
Alas! The fact remains that Mao Zedong was (along with
Josef Stalin and Adolf Hitler) the head of one of the very,
very few regimes that managed to kill more than thirty million
people in this century. Mao's
Brad De Long [EMAIL PROTECTED] 06/02/99 10:38AM
Stalin and Mao were leaders at the time of enormous objective social and
economic transformations, revolutions, in which the working masses did
extract
some historical justice from exploiting classes, somewhat analogous to the
French Revolution
Stalin and Mao were leaders at the time of enormous objective social and
economic transformations, revolutions, in which the working masses did
extract
some historical justice from exploiting classes, somewhat analogous to the
French Revolution reign of terror; and there occurred pitched class
The Alternative Economic Summit
http://www.weedbonn.org/aktiong7/prog_e.htm
17./18. of June 1999
..VHS, Cologne
Programme and Outline
From 18th to 20th of June 1999 the last World Economic Summit (G-7) in this
century will take place in Cologne.
In Germany, social movements and NGOs are
Rob forgot Bulgaria, where another bomb landed.
--
Michael Perelman
Economics Department
California State University
Chico, CA 95929
Tel. 530-898-5321
E-Mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Hello Rob,
Rob Schaap [EMAIL PROTECTED] 06/02/99 11:39AM
G'day Chas,
It must seem like I follow you from list to list just to disagree with you
Charles: Well, no progress without struggle.
Rob:
Conditions can be such, and usually have been just after insurrections, that
an
I recently read about somebody proposed a law that all email discussions
if they continue too long inevitably lead to a comparison with Hitler
and then become unmanageable.
This thread seems to be running along an accelerated time path.
--
Michael Perelman
Economics Department
California State
Perhaps we are not in such close agreement. I don't think that Lenin wrote
anything useful on nationalism (and I have read it) It is too easy in world
history for the "oppressed nation" to turn into the "oppressor nation" and
most nationalism appeals to an external oppressor, for it to be a
At 10:42 PM 6/1/99 -0700, Brad DeLong wrote:
And for this I am tried, judged, and sentenced as an:
--(i) ultra-rightist
--(ii) idiot
--(iii) supporter of despots and death squads
--(iv) believer that all "violence" is equal: that Jews who resist
Nazi
I am not sure that my memory is correct in this:
Henry forwarded to this list a discussion from another list. We had
already been through this material. I think that Brad is wrong. He
takes unreliable sources and uses them uncritically. Clinton is very
bad, but I would not use the Clinton
DeLong, Capitalist Roader:
Your unconscionable slanders of the Dear Leader and Grand Poobah
will never be swallowed by the masses of alert proletarians, who
are keenly aware of their world-historic contributions to
progress and human development, especially in the fields of zero
population
No, the comedy of errors didn't occur until "Bennie's "post below.
Charles Brown
(
DeLong, Capitalist Roader:
Your unconscionable slanders of the Dear Leader and Grand Poobah
will never be swallowed by the masses of alert proletarians, who
are keenly aware of
Yes, I am with you on that.
Lenin wrote a lot on self-determination and national liberation which is helpful in
thinking through the unity and struggle of the class/national contradiction. In sum,
nationalism ( of which race identity is in a very sharp form) plays a mixed role in
the world
On Wednesday, June 2, 1999 at 10:07:38 (-0400) Henry C.K. Liu writes:
On your three points,
Point 1: Read again. DeLong wrote:
Alas! The fact remains that Mao Zedong was (along with
Josef Stalin and Adolf Hitler) the head of one of the very,
very few regimes that managed to
I'm not going to get into a debate in which I disagree with both sides
(Brad vs. Charles Jim C.)
However, I have a little note on the word "totalitarianism."
The word was used a lot, with most of its usage being loose meaning "an
authoritarian government I don't like." This looseness became
Clinton's bombs have landed in still another country: Albania. Quite a
record!
By the way, by refusing to live by the war powers act, could we say that
Clinton is a war resister?
--
Michael Perelman
Economics Department
California State University
Chico, CA 95929
Tel. 530-898-5321
E-Mail
Your post is self incriminating.
You of course did not attack me personally in your post, the word "attack"
never appeared in it. I am only inventing things again.
I try to deal with you with humor, as Michael suggests, but its hard for me in
a foreign language. To save yourself future
At 10:54 AM 6/2/99 -0400, Charles Brown wrote, inter alia:
The main point again is your "Big man" theory of history approach. Social
classes, not big , important individuals, were the proximate and physical
causes of the enormous social dislocation, including premature deaths in
the Soviet
Response (Jim C)
Beautifully put in my opinion. I think back to all of the Indians like
Geronimo, Cochise, Chief Joseph that I have seen villified; by whom they
were villified; in whose interest they were villified; on the basis of what
evidence they were villified.
The classical tautology of
I must say in support of Angela that it remains to shown that Lenin and Marx
had anything in common.
Original Message Follows
From: Carrol Cox
rc-am wrote:
perhaps one must first decide whether one is a marxist or a leninist?
If all you want to do is to spin academic reveries I
So far as I know nobody on this list supported any of these imperialistic
action. Nobody has engaged in ethnic cleansing. Nobody has said that Henry
looks anything like Charlie Chan. No one has defended Harry Truman or any
other western mass murderes.
Yet is seems to be quite acceptable to
This is why calling any adversary a second Hitler is America's favorite game.
America has destroyed more freedom by protecting it. I have never understood
the humanitarianism of Truman's dropping the secong atomic bomb. The first was
argued as saving American lives, the second was for emphasis?
Wojtek Sokolowski wrote:
Foreign influences are not necesserily detrimental to self-determination and
national progress. There is enough evidence (cf. Gerschenkron's work on
relative backwardness) that the Soviet (and by implication) Chinese model of
industrialization was heavily
We definitely disagree if you don't find anything useful in Lenin on national
liberation and self-determination.
From the standpoint of the oppressed nations, colonialism was too long and hard (not
easy), to take much heed of your warning (given from inside the privilege and
material comfort
Not half as funny as Clinton claiming that bombing Yugoslavia saves lives.
Brad De Long wrote:
DeLong, Capitalist Roader:
Your unconscionable slanders of the Dear Leader and Grand Poobah
will never be swallowed by the masses of alert proletarians, who
are keenly aware of their
Comrade Max does not qualify. He has not murdered 30 million Americans with
evil intent, yet anyway.
Maybe his support of the War on Yugolavia will accomplish that requirement.
Brad De Long wrote:
DeLong, Capitalist Roader:
Your unconscionable slanders of the Dear Leader and Grand Poobah
At 01:28 PM 6/2/99 -0700, Jim Craven wrote, inter alia:
The Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution were both attempts at
self-reliant development and attempts to spread on a mass scale, thought and
consideration about the dangers of whosesale importation of "things
foreign"; they
Michael Hoover writes: recall that Mussolini proclaimed a desire to
construct a 'totalitarian' state...and appeal of concept/term for US Cold
Warriors was drawing attention to similarities between fascism and
communism which they could do only by eliding significant differences
between two (such
the word "totalitarianism."
The word was used a lot, with most of its usage being loose meaning "an
authoritarian government I don't like." This looseness became Official
Policy with Jeanne Kirkpatrick's view that "We" (the US government under
Reagan) oppose totalitarianism (authoritarian
This is an open invitation to members of the Government of China.
Next time you are in the U.S. give me a call (I need some warning time) and
I'll take you on a personally guided tour of Indian Reservations (Yakima,
Lummi, Makah, Blackfoot, Lakota) to show you some realities that the
government
As for neo-liberal globalism, Bertolt Brecht best summed it up:
Those who take the meat from the table,
teach contentment.
Those for whom the taxes are destined,
demand sacrifice.
Those who eat their fill, speak to the hungry,
of wonderful times to come.
Those who lead the country into
is there some sort of internet blockade against Yugoslavia? I can't send
e-mail to a correspondent in Belgrade. it keeps on showing up as "The
server gives this reason: '550 Unknown User.'" perhaps because the email
address ends with "beotel.yu"
Jim Devine [EMAIL PROTECTED]
I join this list in hope of learning a few thing about political
economy. But instead I am learning about American humor, or what passes
as such.
Of course the Chinese are not independent thinkers; they invent
fantasies about imperialistic oppression. Besides, who are they to
complain when
I'm no defender of Mao or Stalin, but I'm no vilifier of them either.
I see their bureaucratic socialisms as substitutes for capitalism as ways
of abolishing feudalism (and similar modes of production), of
industrializing, and of promoting national economic development. Just like
capitalism,
Jim Devine wrote:
It is no coincidence that to be Marx, all Max needs is an "R."
R as in ridiculous? retrogressive? reactionary? repugnant?
not reasonable, no.
Funny, no?
Jim: thanks for those two great posts:
"What I would love to see" and the "open invitation"
frank
Does anybody have any thoughts about Hoffa's performance or the disaster
in California Coastal Berry election?
--
Michael Perelman
Economics Department
California State University
Chico, CA 95929
Tel. 530-898-5321
E-Mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Jim, you are more fortunate than us Chinese. We did not have an option to
choose the kind of socialism to fight for. The pincer action of Western
imperialism and Confucian feudalism was so oppressive that most of us would
have gone to hell to escape it. We have a popular song" "The East is
If Suharto is a bad person, what does that make the President(s) of the USA
that backed him?
(List as many others here as you like.)
Gene Coyle
Brad De Long wrote:
Brad, while I certainly do not endorse the cited ad hominems (I think Jim
lost his cool and with it, his point) - there is a
Ha ha. Marxism jokes. How funny. And topical too! Those Marxists, riding
high so full of themselves - fat, neglected targets!
Doug
On Wednesday, June 2, 1999 at 17:53:51 (-0700) Jim Devine writes:
is there some sort of internet blockade against Yugoslavia? I can't send
e-mail to a correspondent in Belgrade. it keeps on showing up as "The
server gives this reason: '550 Unknown User.'" perhaps because the email
address ends
Carrol Cox wrote:
Marxism = Leninism
Oh no, what a limiting thought. Leninism was a product of its time
circumstances - could you tell me what it means to be a Leninist in the
U.S. or Australia in 1999?
Doug
A larger point is that Marx can hardly be interpreted as an enemy of
capitalism. In fact, he saw many benfits being brought about by capitalist
development - yes, liberation from feudal oppression and freedom including
- his main criticism was, at least as i understant it, that those benefits
I'm not going to be dragged into specifics. I just want to register
that Brad's encomium to Max Sawicky Thought is one of the funniest
things I've read in at least the last few days. Great! (And it makes
up for any lapses in proper political economic analysis I may have
detected in Brad's past
Good, I am getting too much humor, bad for digestion.
Incidentally, with me its more than an intellectual debate. The issue of
China and its history is real to me. And Mao is my hero. (Don't bother, I
won't respond).
Since I seemed to have started this food fight, let me pose something that
This whole debate is pointless. Who is worse, Jeffrey Daumer or Jack
the Ripper? Nonsense.
JIm D. made an important point that seems to have passed unnoticed. You
cannot evaluate politics without the context. Mao murdered people
because of mass starvation. Do we apply the same standard to
Comrade "Smoky" Sawicky wrote: DeLong, Capitalist Roader: Your
unconscionable slanders of the Dear Leader and Grand Poobah will never be
swallowed by the masses of alert proletarians, who are keenly aware of
their world-historic contributions to progress and human development,
especially in the
Generally, a person's morality can be defined by his supporters and detractors,
even enemies. Mao is generally appreciated by the oppressed and vilified by
the establishment and the wishing-to-be establishment, the "sophisticated" and
the "liberals". The fact was there were three factors
One obvious thought: the ISP (all Yugo ISPs?) is without power.
Peter
Those were by Jim Craven, not by me.
At 08:33 PM 6/2/99 -0400, you wrote:
Jim: thanks for those two great posts:
"What I would love to see" and the "open invitation"
frank
Jim Devine [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://clawww.lmu.edu/Faculty/JDevine/JDevine.html
Bombing DESTROYS human rights. Ground
rc-am wrote:
perhaps one must first decide whether one is a marxist or a leninist?
If all you want to do is to spin academic reveries I suppose this
opposition works. But if you are interested in the process of actually
building a working class opposition to capital, then Marxism = Leninism
DeLong, Capitalist Roader:
Your unconscionable slanders of the Dear Leader and Grand Poobah
will never be swallowed by the masses of alert proletarians, who
are keenly aware of their world-historic contributions to
progress and human development, especially in the fields of zero
population
Brad, while I certainly do not endorse the cited ad hominems (I think Jim
lost his cool and with it, his point) - there is a certain quality of your
style of analysis that is at least ethically questionable, and very likely
moot on methodological grounds.
That quality constist in using varying
In my classes, I try to explore the "great personality" theory of history
versus "masses make history" and variants in-between. One thing for sure, is
that any event, any crime, any policy cannot be fully or meaningfully
understood in isolation--without reference to contextual forces, conditions,
BLS DAILY REPORT, WEDNESDAY, JUNE 2, 1999
RELEASED TODAY: In April, 215 metropolitan areas recorded unemployment
rates below the U.S. average (4.1 percent, not seasonally adjusted), while
102 areas had higher rates. Of the 24 metropolitan areas with jobless rates
below 2.0 percent, 13 were in
Is it not possible to use varying degrees of abstraction in the case of
the US then and say that x millions of people died, led short brutish
lives, or emigrated, due to US imposition of monocultural agriculture
in their countries, provocation of coups and civil unrest, as well
exports of arms
At 06:44 PM 6/2/99 -0400, you wrote:
Jim, you are more fortunate than us Chinese. We did not have an option to
choose the kind of socialism to fight for. The pincer action of Western
imperialism and Confucian feudalism was so oppressive that most of us would
have gone to hell to escape it. We
(Pen-l, Please forgive the formatting. Seth)
- ___ __
/ |/ / /___/ / /_ //M I D - E A S T R E A L I T I E S
/ /|_/ / /_/_ / /\\ Making Sense of the Middle East
/_/ /_/ /___/ /_/ \\ CHOMSKY - ON BOMBING IRAQ
When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to
interfere with the political affairs which have never connected them with
another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the superior station to
which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a willful
If you are not defending these charges of racism, then you have nothing to worry
about.
Rod Hay wrote:
So far as I know nobody on this list supported any of these imperialistic
action. Nobody has engaged in ethnic cleansing. Nobody has said that Henry
looks anything like Charlie Chan. No one
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