Michael Perelman wrote:
Somewhere, I recall Paul Sweezy discussing how major corporations ripped
off the work of independent inventors. I recall a specific discussion
of General Electric and the garbage disposal. Does anyone remember
where he wrote about this?
--
I'm pretty sure the
When this quote appeared as a filler in MR some years ago they used
a delightfully idiomatic translation for the first sentence: "It is not our
thing to write recipes for the cookshops of the future."
Carrol
Michael Hoover wrote:
One of my all-time favorite quotes from Marx comes from a
Somewhere, I recall Paul Sweezy discussing how major corporations ripped
off the work of independent inventors. I recall a specific discussion
of General Electric and the garbage disposal. Does anyone remember
where he wrote about this?
--
Michael Perelman
Economics Department
California State
One of my all-time favorite quotes from Marx comes from a letter to Arnold
Ruge in 1841 (I believe but correct me if this is incorrect):
"If the construction of the future and its completion for all time is not
our task, all the more certain is what me must accomplish in the present. I
mean,
Michael Keaney:
Times Higher Education Supplement, 10 September, 1999
Ex-US president Jimmy
Carter, now working for the UN, said of East Timor: "The Indonesian military
and other government agencies are supporting, directing and arming
pro-integration militias to create a climate of fear and
For me, and this is entirely tangental to the discussions on "Eurocentrism"
that I frankly have not been following too closely, Eurocentrism means:
a) Characterizing all economic thought originating from "Euro" sources
(includes US, Australia, NZ) as "analysis" while characterizing non-Euro
I agree with this. Except as I understand Jim D's
lumpers and splitters, Marx was a splitter in the sense
that he was a dialectician and saw processes as
involving quantitative change turning into
qualitiative change. There was a leap into
capitalism, by his analysis, a discontinuity,
a
At 03:07 PM 9/29/99 -0400, Louis Proyect wrote:
You got to be careful recommending these authors, Wojtek. There was a big
witch-hunt in the 1950s to weed out professors who were disciples of
Alexander Gerschenkron and things are starting to look menacing after Waco
and other FBI crackdowns. Are
Jim Devine set an excellent example of how debate should proceed. Do
not characterize others in ways that they would not accept themselves.
I mentioned to Jim B. that the term Eurocentrism did not seem
particularly useful. For example, Dobb, as I read him could be charged
with Eurocentrism,
At 03:04 PM 9/29/99 -0400, Barkley Rosser wrote:
Wojtek,
Minor point. You grew up in the Second World,
even if it is no more. Hey, without a Second World
there can be no Third World.
Technically true. Although imho the second/third world distinction is more
racist than Blaut Co. make
Yes, I answered Wojtek's question when he asked it a long time ago. And it doesn't
pose any kind of challenge to the position I have been putting forth on the issues on
this thread. So, the response to you remains simple also: Wojtek didn't find any flaws
in what I have been saying. Your
What the hey! There's no Alexander Greschenkron included here. I am afraid
the crackdown has begun...
FROM MODERNIZATION TO GLOBALIZATION:
SOCIAL PERSPECTIVES ON INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT
Edited by J. Timmons Roberts and Amy Hite
Blackwell Publishers
Forthcoming Nov/December, 1999
CONTENTS
Now, your
insistence that there are still big mammals in Asia, which is true,
leads me to think that was because, perhaps, homo erectus did reach
China, and thus as in Africa, but to a lesser extent, the big mammals
there adapted too.
Wording above may be misleading: Erectus (or at
--- Forwarded Message Follows ---
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 15:05:11 -0400
From: christopher chase-dunn [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: check out this new reader
To:WORLD SYSTEMS NETWORK [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Organization:
Clarification, by coevolution i did not mean domestication, but that
big mammals in Africa learned not to trust humans (rather than
assuming we were just small noiceless vegetarians, because they
co-evolved with us, and saw us, beginning with Erectus 1.6 million
years ago, as a threat because
Ricardo Duchesne wrote:
Alan Carling's synthesis of Cohen and Brenner, which Wood completely
rejects as an imposible mix (not everything mixes, try putting car
oil in your soup) can be found in his book, Analytical Marxism.
I'm afraid I'm going to have to endorse Ricardo's observations
G'day all,
Sez Carrol:
On the other hand, Luxemburg's "socialism or barbarism"
does work both as slogan and as historical analysis: it is this
either/or that the anti-marxists on this list will not acknowledge,
since *their* hope for progress depends on the amelioration of
capitalism
Well, we
Barkley Rosser,
You know that in China the living standards of the poor haven't been
raised. There are still a lot of people suffering from cold and hunger.
They can't afford to send their children to school, and, as a result,
too many children are deprived of education.
I really sympathize with
Barkley:
I'd agree that the slave plantation system (combined with forced cotton
planting in India after 1857) was in the long run more important than the
16th-century gold and silver, mainly because it involved millions of
plantAtion workers, slave and non-slave, refininery workers, transport
Although they don't hoodwink the rich they hoodwink the poor. So they
are cheaters.
I don't think that they are "cheaters" from a capitalist perspective,
only
from a socialist perspective.
Jim Devine [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://clawww.lmu.edu/~JDevine
Sincerely,
Ju-chang He
E-mail: [EMAIL
This message is dedicated to poor people and people of justice all
over the world. You can print it, forward and post it to other mailing
lists/discussion forums as long as its
attribution is given to the author and the wording is not altered in
any way. Feel free to pass it around to all of your
Times Higher Education Supplement, 10 September, 1999
Aid is a hand-out to tyranny
Donald Hagger condemns the blinkered theories behind western aid to
Indonesia's brutal government
As Indonesia descends into chaos, severe doubts arise about the theories of
development aid that have
Ricardo,
I think we would be more inclined to fall at
your feet in fawning admiration if you did not
keep giving us major bloopers like this last one
about large mammals.
Last time I checked there still are elephants
in Asia.
Barkley Rosser
Where do you get the nerve to talk
"Rod Hay" [EMAIL PROTECTED] 09/28/99 06:31PM
You can agree with Louis, but it must be admitted that for two weeks Wojtek
has been pointing out a flaw in the argument
(
Charles: No this doesn't have to be admitted , because it is not true. It is Wojtek's
argument that is
Dear Jack and Susan,
I am not sure how much involvement you have with the day-to-day activities
of NACLA in your capacity as members of the Board of Directors and
Editorial Board, but I want to raise a serious question with you about
recent coverage of events in Colombia in the context of the
What is your opinion of the charges against Catholicism that those Catholic
dummies were inferior and didn/t/couldm't invent capitalism because they
didn't possess the Protestant ethic? Wasn't that bigotry, racism,
prejudice?
this question misses the point, a point that people on pen-l
Doug:
It isn't fair to faulty the critique of Eurocentrism by saying thaT it
doesn't correct other problems, like class issues in the European world.
Thats like saying, when we get a cure for AIDS, "oh, thats not really
important because we haven't cured cancer."
One thing at a time -- or, I
At 01:05 PM 9/28/99 -0500, Mathew Forstater asks:
What is one to say to this? This is so disheartening.
in response to my remark:
Max, I am totally with you on that, I do not think third worldism is about
political struggle, abroad or here - it is a kulturkampf waged by
intellectuals in the
At 07:50 AM 9/29/99 -0700, Jim Devine wrote:
yours truly) have made several times. If one believes in the Weberian
"Protestantism caused capitalism" theory (which I do not), the Catholics
Jim, I think that is a rather distorted view of Weber's theory, which is
much more subtle. It deals with
I have asked Chang not to send this stuff to the list. I have unsubbed him and he
resubbed. I will try rectify this as soon as I can. We have better things to do.
--
Michael Perelman
Economics Department
California State University
Chico, CA 95929
Tel. 530-898-5321
E-Mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Wed, 29 Sep 1999, James M. Blaut wrote:
Doug:
It isn't fair to faulty the critique of Eurocentrism by saying thaT it
doesn't correct other problems, like class issues in the European world.
Thats like saying, when we get a cure for AIDS, "oh, thats not really
important because we
Wallerstein and Frank's methodologies, in the eyes of these Marxists at
least, led progressives in advanced capitalist (advanced in terms of
development of capitalist relations of production, not in any other sense
it should go without saying) countries to support all kinds of bourgeois
Jim D wrote:
Of course, we can't go too far with either: the lumpers want to tell us
that the world social system hasn't changed since the last ice age, while
he splitters want to find discrete stages in all processes. (BTW, some of
A.G. Frank's recent work veers toward the picture of the
One of my favorite books on this subject is King's Farmers of 40 centuries,
describing Asian agricultural practices that allowed for high productivity over a
long period of time. It was published early in the century and reprinted by
Rodale around the 1960s.
--
Michael Perelman
Economics
Ricardo,
You're not a sinner. You're just a Siberian
tiger, :-).
Barkley Rosser
-Original Message-
From: Ricardo Duchesne [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wednesday, September 29, 1999 11:05 AM
Subject: [PEN-L:11946] Re: taking stock
Look at the
Last winter I showed that Frank runs
into a major difficulty in speaking of Europe as both a high wage
and a low per-capita/low productivity region. Here I want to pick
up, just briefly, that other major debate on the
English workers' living standards during the industrial revolution.
If
The answer is simple Charles
Gold is only wealth in certain social arrangements. Northwest Europe had
those arrangements. A lot of other places didn't. The only possible
exception is China. So the emphasis should be on those social arrangements
rather than the gold. Wojtek asked if it was
I wish I could say the same for your performances on the issues
surrounding the origins of capitalism. There your principles have
been either shifting or obscure, your facts have been thrown
about with no attempt to establish their relevance, you have
refused even to try to respond to the actual
Preliminary (for contrast).
Lou, in your fine open letter to NACLA you write:
I tried to do my own investigation into this incident and uncovered the
following report from The Presbyterian Church of Colombia:
"A new massacre flows with blood in the Department of Cordoba. This time
it was in
James Craven
Clark College, 1800 E. McLoughlin Blvd.
Vancouver, WA. 98663
(360) 992-2283; Fax: (360) 992-2863
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~blkfoot5
*My Employer Has No Association With My Private/Protected
Opinion*
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
That is not to imply that there is no outstanding scholarship on the above
named subject (e.g. Barrington Moore, Jeffery Paige, Alexander
Gerschenkron, Dietrich Rueschemeyerto name a few), but that the gems are
often surrounded by trash, moral-intellectual entrepreneurship.
wojtek
You got to be
Wojtek,
Minor point. You grew up in the Second World,
even if it is no more. Hey, without a Second World
there can be no Third World.
Barkley Rosser
-Original Message-
From: Wojtek Sokolowski [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wednesday, September 29,
One more thought. Wallerstein and Frank's approach is greatly appreciated
by intellectuals who are trying to defend clowns masquarading in
nationalist costumes, like the great leader of Malaysia. Any criticisms
of their 'nationalism' is, conveniently, labelled "Eurocentric" (or
racist...), end
Michael,
Thanks for the reference. I'll get ahold of Amazon.com and try to get a copy
of it. I have seen desperately poor Tribal members ban together to create a
pool of resources for other Tribal members who suffered a tragedy and were
evenly more desperately poor; and they took action against
Hi Wojtek,
Perhaps I haven't been clear. I am not anti-industrialization, only
anti-capitalist-industrialization; I am not anti-urbanization, only
anti-urbanization under capitalism; I am not a Luddite (I desperately seek
to have Louis P come out to Browning and other reservations/reserves to
At 11:19 AM 9/29/99 -0400, Louis Proyect wrote:
Mario's only response to all this has been a paranoid and demagogic rant
about how Yankee racists should keep their nose out of Colombian politics,
Mario's response is NOT a paranoid and demagogic rant. He provides a clear
assessment of a
Jim B. writes:
(1) You're absolutely right that "factories in the field" are just as
capitalist as factories in the city. But I repeat: Brennerr is talking
about pre-industrial times, the 15th and 16th centiuries, not industrial
capitalism, and not about factories in the field.
I want to make
Ricardo,
Your original message was about Africa
versus the rest of the world. I would agree that
there is strong evidence that a lot of big mammals
in the Americas got zapped when Homo
Sapiens arrived on the scene (I don't know about
Australia). But the claim that Africa has a higher
Ricardo:
This is a missing element in Brenner, who assumes that, because
merchant capital had long been in existence, one can ignore it as
the factor which made the difference which led to capitalism.
One can ignore merchant capital because it preceded capitalism? Er. Um. Okay.
Ricardo:
This is a missing element in Brenner, who assumes that, because
merchant capital had long been in existence, one can ignore it as
the factor which made the difference which led to capitalism.
One can ignore merchant capital because it preceded capitalism? Er. Um. Okay.
Louis Proyect
Jim B.,
BTW, although you have backed off a bit
from the emphasis on the role of gold and silver,
it is certainly a staple of much of the literature that
you cite and propose as supporting your view. I
am thinking in particular of Andre Gunder Frank's
_ReOrient_ which really plays up the
Jim B.,
Guess I'm largely in agreement here. It is
quite clear that both the inflation and the selected
increases in wealth that accompanied the 1500s
inflow of bullion to Europe shook up the class structure
considerably, with at least some of the gainers being
either actual or
Jim B.,
Good luck on the third volume.
I hope you recognize that I have put forward
some arguments that have been (or could be)
labeled "Eurocentric," although perhaps I have
avoided that label by accepting large portions of
the "Third-Worldist" position. But then, I'm one of those
1. URBAN OR RURAL ORIGINS OF AGRICULTURE?
It is crucial to Brenner's (and Wood's) thesis to locate the transition
from feudalism to capitalism in the countryside. While it is necessary to
focus on the enclosure acts, etc., what seems puzzling to me is his
de-emphasis of embryonic forms of
Louis:
You say " In Brenner's very, very lengthy article, there is nearly ZERO
discussion of Latin America, Asia and Africa. "
Actually, in Brenner's lon g essay, there is NO MENTION WHATEVER OF ASIA,
AFRICA, OR LATIN AMERICA except for one comment about Barbados after 1650
-- after the the
At 03:57 PM 9/28/99 -0700, Jim Craven wrote:
The real "savages" are all wearing uniforms and three-piece suits and acting
oh so "civilized" and "efficient".
If I remember correctly, the Canadian government outlawed for some time the
practice of potlatch, solely because it was s antithetical
BLS DAILY REPORT, TUESDAY, SEPTEMBER 28, 1999
Perhaps the greatest surprise of the economic expansion that began in 1991
has been the failure of inflation to rise once the nation's unemployment
rate dipped under 6 percent. Many economists were convinced by history that
falling under that
I think the concept of Eurocentrism is both enlightening and useful.
There's no doubt that the idea of "Europe" sprung up in opposition to
the colonized Other, just as reason came into being with madness and
nature with civilization. But there seems to be a danger in stopping
there, and just
Look at the responses to the last post on total foreign trade,
Why? Are you telling me that you want me to join in with your accusations against
those who disagree with you?
I know where you stand on this issue, and would never expect that. But
favoring a position requires knowing why
At 08:26 PM 09/28/1999 -0400, you wrote:
Jim D:
"The introduction to the Blaut article that Wojtek was reacting to could be
interpreted as criticizing Brenner and the like simply because he doesn't
like Brenner's anti-third-worldist politics. This is an endless loop that
should be avoided."
What is your opinion of the charges against Catholicism that those Catholic
dummies were inferior and didn/t/couldm't invent capitalism because they
didn't possess the Protestant ethic? Wasn't that bigotry, racism,
prejudice?
this question misses the point, a point that people on pen-l
This heading:
1. URBAN OR RURAL ORIGINS OF AGRICULTURE?
should obviously have read:
1. URBAN OR RURAL ORIGINS OF CAPITALISM?
Louis Proyect
(http://www.panix.com/~lnp3/marxism.html)
BBall Bill has put forward a plan for increase health insurance coverage.
Does any one have an analysis of the plan?
Rod Hay
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
The History of Economic Thought Archives
http://socserv2.mcmaster.ca/~econ/ugcm/3ll3/index.html
Batoche Books
These are some initial reactions to Brenner's NLR piece that I will amplify
on after finalizing my research.
1. URBAN OR RURAL ORIGINS OF AGRICULTURE?
It is crucial to Brenner's (and Wood's) thesis to locate the transition
from feudalism to capitalism in the countryside. While it is necessary to
This message is dedicated to poor people and people of justice all
over the world. You can print it, forward and post it to other mailing
lists/discussion forums as long as its
attribution is given to the author and the wording is not altered in
any way. Feel free to pass it around to all of your
Private Eye, No. 985
17 September, 1999
In The City
"You cannot expect this bank to be the policeman of the world." So declared
chairman Sir William Purves at the 1995 annual shareholders' gathering of
Midland Bank, now HSBC. Sir William, who had been out east a long time and
had seen more
Michael:
I am tense, as you may have noticed though I try to hide it...
Sorry about giving you aggravation. And sorry about the crtuches.
"James M. Blaut" wrote:
EITHER europe was more advanced, more progressive,
more graced with environmental qualities, etc., than the rest of the
world,
Barkley:
You always bring a breath of fresh air into this miasmic discussion.
I'm working on a third volume of The Colonizer's Model and one section will
deal with the industrial revolution. I'll argue -- this is not partiucalry
original -- that the run-up to, and early stages, of the
-Original Message-
From: Jim Devine [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tuesday, September 28, 1999 12:08 AM
Subject: [PEN-L:11736] Re: GDP is unscientific and unfair for poor people.
There's a large and growing literature on alternatives to GDP as a measure
G'day Louis,
Just in case I've found my way out of your filter file ... didn't the big
fella say from the off that the bourgeoisie was the product of a series of
revolutions? And that some of these had to do with the political advance
of the class through the rise and fall of feudalist
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