Justin writes in regard to moral depreciation:
>. I don't see why the LTV has to be true to explain this. I have
>never denied, nor does the the most orthodox bourgeois economist,
>that if you can save labor costs by adopting a new production
>technique, that people who have sunk costs in onld
- Original Message -
From: "Devine, James" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
you can't understand what Marx is talking about in CAPITAL if you
don't
understand his jargon and more importantly, his way of approaching
the
question, which is summarized by his phrase "the law of value."
This lack of
unde
The Dept of Commerce/BEA web site has vastly improved
access to NIPA data. You could build your own graph
in about two minutes.
Start here:
http://www.bea.doc.gov/bea/dn/nipaweb/SelectTable.asp?Selected=Y
mbs
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Beh
I wrote: >>the use of value concepts allows the understanding of the
capitalist system as a totality. Lacking this understanding -- and more
importantly, the ability to act on this understanding -- is one aspect
of the "anarchy of production," a necessary component of the existence
of crises.<<
>
Rate of Return
02/01 17:27
Morgan Stanley's Roach Says Recession to Last: Rates of Return
By Heather Bandur
New York, Feb. 1 (Bloomberg) -- Rising consumer confidence,
falling unemployment and a pickup in manufacturing have many Wall
Street economists saying the U.S. economy is on the verge of
p
and pete seeger lives on
Harvey Matusow, 75, an Anti-Communist Informer, Dies
By DOUGLAS MARTIN
Harvey Matusow, a paid informer who named more than
200 people as Communists or Communist sympathizers in
the early 1950's, only to recant and say he lied in
almost every instance, died on Jan. 1
Devine, James wrote:
>It's interesting that they're pessimistic.
>Time to sell!
See below (from the anonymous Observer diary on the op-ed page of the FT).
>you weren't invited to the WEF?
I actually covered it for The Nation. Which means I got to hang out
in the press hotel, read press releas
Doug writes:>A lot of folks at the WEF were saying it's going to be a W, or
a U with an extremely saggy right tail. Krugman gave a synopsis of one of
the brainstorming sessions that sounded rather downbeat I'm told. <
you weren't invited to the WEF? It's interesting that they're pessimistic.
Time
Adam: So who should take the money from the middle class? Who should tell the workers
that they should make no money now that they are starving?
In your ultraleftist rants you defend the bourgeoisie for making Argentina a cashless
society--only because all the cash is now in foreign banks. We
Devine, James wrote:
>For anyone interested, I just gave a talk on what's going to happen to the
>U.S. economy to the Loyola Marymount University student economics society.
>My notes can be found at:
>http://bellarmine.lmu.edu/faculty/jdevine/talks/ESTalk020502.htm
A lot of folks at the WEF were
- Original Message -
From: "Charles Brown" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
^^^
Haven't you shifted to a different issue ? You started saying that
under Quine-Duhem underdetermination problem, the burden was on
the proponents of the Marxist theory to demonstrate the
indispensiblity of their th
Well, we have theories of speculative dynamics in asset markets, and we have
case studies in policy outcomes for countries facing BOP/forex issues, and there
are Thirwall's Post Keynesian Lance Taylor's structuralist approaches. Am I
missing anything?
The main point, though, is that there is a d
For anyone interested, I just gave a talk on what's going to happen to the
U.S. economy to the Loyola Marymount University student economics society.
My notes can be found at:
http://bellarmine.lmu.edu/faculty/jdevine/talks/ESTalk020502.htm
Jim Devine [EMAIL PROTECTED] & http://bellarmine.lmu.ed
Afghanistan: US forces carry out cold-blooded murder at Kandahar hospital
By Peter Symonds
1 February 2002
In a one-sided battle in Kandahar on Monday, a US-led military force shot and killed
six foreign Taliban supporters who had been barricaded into a ward of the Mirwais
hospital since earl
JKS: Rubbish. We can say, as I do, that capitalsim is exploitative, unfair, and
unnecessary, and needs to be replaced, without adiopting a value framework.
Not adopting that framework does not stuck us with demanding only higher
wages.
Karl: Dountlessly Justin can say what he likes. However th
CB: My thought on this is that the Cubans are as or more scared than most
anti-imperialists around the world at the uncertainty and openendedness of the proto
and neo-fascist that the Bushites are in the process of developing. They are probably
concerned not to give the U.S. any excuse at all f
> In a world in which transaction demand on the current account was the sole
> basis for forex markets, with constant PPP and never a whiff of pricing to
> market, then this type of analysis would make sense. We're not
> in that world, however. Peter
>
AND . . . . ???
mbs
BUREAU OF LABOR STATISTICS, DAILY REPORT, TUESDAY, FEBRUARY 5, 2002:
The Bush administration's budget request for fiscal year 2003 includes
$511.1 million dollars for the Bureau of Labor Statistics, an increase of
$21.5 million over FY 2002, and 2,529 FTE, the same level as FY 2002 .
Included in
on 2/6/02 03:55 AM, Charles Brown at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>> Sir Charles Brown
>
> You determine value as depending upon future condition. but it may be
> wrong, because value which depends upon future belongs to sphere of
> fictitious capital flow, such as various derivertives -futures, fo
A wonderful story on heuristics.
Back in the fall of 1970 I got subpoened by a legislative commit6ee
investigating campus disorders. They were a bunch of buffoons -- as
shown beautifully by their interrogation of a professor of electrical
engineering from the U of I. He was a German emigre and st
JKS writes: >>> I have said as much here. But it's [the Marxian Law of Value
is] a far more limited heuristic than you seem to think. It's basically
useful for showing ina simple way that there's exploitation going on.
However, you can do this without it.<<<
quoth me: >>as I write on the margins
> I discuss this is What's Wrong with Exploitation?, look it up, and see if
> you disagree. jks
What is wrong is endegenous accumulation which is enabled by "exploitation"
as the profit source. And if endogenous accumulation is possible, capitalism
can not experience crises. Rosa Luxemburg unders
>
> > I have said as much here. But it's a far more limited heuristic than you
>seem to think. It's basically useful for showing ina simple way that
>there's exploitation going on. However, you can do this without it.<
>
>as I write on the margins of term papers now and then, assertion is not the
>
>Another point on this is that for Marx "value" mainly applies to
>capitalism. Marx refers to the fruits of exploitation in pre-capitalist
>societies as "surplus-labor" ( see below) not "surplus value" . So, for
>Marx "value" is meant to convey the specific form of exploitation that
>predom
In a message dated 2/5/2002 11:57:50 AM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Suppose that you are looking at the value circulating in the economy today.
How would you value the constant capital values found in the commodities
produced? That will depend on whether the constant capi
>>I thought I was pretty mild.
>
>Referring to your interlocutor as desperate and inward turning is
>clearly not mild,
I refereed to the theory that way, and not to any of its advocates.
but I suspect that I shall be blamed for the
>rancor
>on the list as I was supposed to take the heat for Paul
Title: Re: [PEN-L:22419] Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: LOV
and
Why is domination functional for increasing
exploitation? The answer highlights a third problem with Roemer's
argument which turns on a crucial assumption of his models. In these
what workers sell is labour, not labour power, or,
equiva
Another point on this is that for Marx "value" mainly applies to capitalism. Marx
refers to the fruits of exploitation in pre-capitalist societies as "surplus-labor" (
see below) not "surplus value" . So, for Marx "value" is meant to convey the specific
form of exploitation that predominates in
I
>think Marx was genuinely dialectical in a specific Hegelian sense--he
>proceeds by immanent critique, for example--but this isn't a matter of
>giving an alternative to explanation by means of probabalistic laws or
>tendecies, but rather a style of explanation that offers a framework for
>offer
[was: RE: [PEN-L:22414] Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Value talk]
Justin writes:>A degenerating research program [DRP] often doesn't have a
single fatal flaw. It just runs out of steam, spends all of its time trying
to fix up internal problem, doesn't geberate new hypotheses and predictions
and
>
> >I have argued this point ins ome detail in my What's Wrong with
> >Exploitation? Nous 1995,
>
>At this point I must once more apologise for having taken a somewhat snippy
>tone in this thread; it is entirely because I am an idiot. I seem to have
>acquired the belief that "What's Wrong with
>
>I thought I was pretty mild.
Referring to your interlocutor as desperate and inward turning is
clearly not mild, but I suspect that I shall be blamed for the rancor
on the list as I was supposed to take the heat for Paul Phillips'
explosion.
>
>>
>>Moreover, note that I raised the questio
>
>Charles writes:
> > Can we get into a little more what a heuristic is ? Seems to be a sort
>of
>ok device for guiding scientific enquire, but sort of not a fulfledged
>...what ? Theoretical concept ? What is the term for other types of ideas
>( that are more than heuristic ) that are used
Charles writes:
> CB: My take on Marx normative issues is that he asserts many
> injunctions ( such as "Workers of the world , unite", "the
> thing is to change the world") , so he has an ethical
> component to his theory. Ethics is what one does, and so
> Marx's emphasis on the unity of theor
Value talk
by Justin Schwartz
05 February 2002 15:30 UTC
R, I think we have reached the point of diminishing marginal returns. I
agree with Fred Guy: the work on the LTV for a century has been a
desperate, inward-turning attempt tos how that it can be made coherent in
the face of increasin
Justin:
I don't think we are making progress here, hadn't we best stop?
Charles: Well sure, but we know the issue will rise again on the list. It is one of
the regular recurring topics here.
>
>Justin, you expect us to move on after you characterize my attempts
>as inward turning--this is exactly what the Marxian law of value is
>not!
Well, I'm out of energy, anyway.
And these are not the points I am after, as should be clear to
>you after years of debate. There is a willful ignora
>>I don't see Marxian (labor) values as normative, except as
representing "bourgeois right" (sale at value is treated as "equal
exchange" in CAPITAL).<<
>How is the concept of exploitation, which seems to be the heart of
the LTV, not normative? <
As Cornel West's analysis of Marx's take on moral
CB: Can we get into a little more what a heuristic is?
Anyone interested in heuristics should consult a wonderful little book
called _How to Solve It_ by Georges Polya. The aim of heuristics
according to Polya is to "study the methods and rules of discovery and
invention." People like Polya (a
Charles writes:
> Can we get into a little more what a heuristic is ? Seems to be a sort of
ok device for guiding scientific enquire, but sort of not a fulfledged
...what ? Theoretical concept ? What is the term for other types of ideas
( that are more than heuristic ) that are used in scienti
>Sir Charles Brown
You determine value as depending upon future condition. but it may be
wrong, because value which depends upon future belongs to sphere of
fictitious capital flow, such as various derivertives -futures, forword
option, swap etc- not belong to real capital market. In reality,
Many "laws" such as the laws of supply and demand are really neither
descriptive nor predictive, but can only really be seen as
*prescriptive*. This is what you *should* do if you want such and such
results. (This is what Adolph Lowe called "instrumental" analysis.)
Subject: [PEN-L:22404] LOV a
>R, I think we have reached the point of diminishing marginal
>returns. I agree with Fred Guy: the work on the LTV for a century
>has been a desperate, inward-turning attempt tos how that it can be
>made coherent in the face of increasing masses of fatal objections,
>and it's not doing real w
Historical Materialism
by Davies, Daniel
05 February 2002 07:07 UTC
Stalin was "in" until 1953? . The Soviet economic growth after the extraordinary
devastation of WWII had to be very fast for it to close the gap on the U.S. (even
after 1939-45). In other words, wasn't there enormous econ
LOV and LTV
by Justin Schwartz
05 February 2002 05:13 UTC
>Marx uses the word "law" differently than Justin does. Marx's "laws" are
>dialectical, non-deterministic. But many interpret his ideas in Justin's
>terms, "proving" that Marx was a determinist.
How do you get "deterministic" out of
LOV and LTV
by Devine, James
05 February 2002 04:42 UTC
Marx uses the word "law" differently than Justin does. Marx's "laws" are
dialectical, non-deterministic. But many interpret his ideas in Justin's
terms, "proving" that Marx was a determinist.
BTW, the "laws" of supply & demand are also
Historical Materialism
by Ian Murray
05 February 2002 00:57 UTC
Ok, but given the Quine-Duhem underdetermination problem-link
below-is not the burden of proof for the indispensability of Marx's
value theory on those who wish to retain it? Steve Fleetwood has an
essay on th
At 05/02/02 04:43 +, you wrote:
>>Obviously I am in general sympathy with Charles's defence of the LOV
>>approach, but I think Justin helpfully pinpoints a line of demarcation. For
>>Justin a "law" is a "precisely formulable generalization". Many might agree
>>the merits of such an approach,
> Michael Hoover wrote:
>
> >the point is to change it...
> >
> >analytical marxists attempt to explain collective action in
> terms of "rational calculations" of self-interested
> individuals rather than understanding that history is shaped
> by social classes (collective entities in parlan
value and price: a dissenting note
by Michael Perelman
05 February 2002 01:20 UTC
Suppose that you are looking at the value circulating in the economy today.
How would you value the constant capital values found in the commodities
produced? That will depend on whether the constant capital
Michael Hoover wrote:
>the point is to change it...
>
>analytical marxists attempt to explain collective action in terms of "rational
>calculations" of self-interested individuals rather than understanding that history
>is shaped by social classes (collective entities in parlance of rational
>
the point is to change it...
analytical marxists attempt to explain collective action in terms of "rational
calculations" of self-interested individuals rather than understanding that history is
shaped by social classes (collective entities in parlance of rational choice/public
choice/social c
- Original Message -
From: "Davies, Daniel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, February 04, 2002 11:17 PM
Subject: [PEN-L:22376] RE: Re: RE: Re: LOV and LTV
>I have said as much here. But it's a far more limited heuristic
than you
>seem to think. It's basically u
- Original Message -
From: "Devine, James" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2002 6:56 AM
Subject: [PEN-L:22384] RE: Re: value vs. price
[Ian gave me permission to send this one-to-one communication to
the pen-l
list as a whole.]
I wrote:>>the real
Justin wrote:
>I have argued this point ins ome detail in my What's Wrong with
>Exploitation? Nous 1995,
At this point I must once more apologise for having taken a somewhat snippy
tone in this thread; it is entirely because I am an idiot. I seem to have
acquired the belief that "What's Wrong
Devine, James wrote:
>I wrote: >>Marx uses the word "law" differently than Justin does. Marx's
>"laws" are dialectical, non-deterministic. But many interpret his ideas in
>Justin's terms, "proving" that Marx was a determinist.<<
>
>Justin writes: > How do you get "deterministic" out of "precise
[was: RE: [PEN-L:22383] Re: RE: Religing Marxism, was AM Histor ical Mat
eriali sm 3][is that an incoherent title or what?]
I wrote:>>BTW, I find religious attitudes all the time in economics. For
example, there's the worship of the market (the U of Chicago) or the worship
of mathematics for it
I wrote: >>Marx uses the word "law" differently than Justin does. Marx's
"laws" are dialectical, non-deterministic. But many interpret his ideas in
Justin's terms, "proving" that Marx was a determinist.<<
Justin writes: > How do you get "deterministic" out of "precisely formulated
relatoon among
CB: I don't think Marx
> >and Engels fold all "theory" into "ideology" in the pejorative sense that
> >they use it in _The German Ideology_ and elsewhere. So, that the theory
>of
> >Marxism is not , paradoxically, unMarxist.
>
>So I argue in the paper.
>
>
>
>CB: Do you mean that we agre
Historical Materialism
by Justin Schwartz
04 February 2002 23:22 UTC
>One question I had on the paradox of ideology is that I don't think Marx
>and Engels fold all "theory" into "ideology" in the pejorative sense that
>they use it in _The German Ideology_ and elsewhere. So, that the theo
Re: Enron SPV's (Doug's theory)
by Doug Henwood
04 February 2002 20:02 UTC
Yeah, it looks like the rentiers were screwed - at least some of
them, those that didn't get to play with the SPVs. But now they're
pissed, and there's going to be a big fight to reassert their power.
They're also goin
In a message dated 2/5/2002 8:59:14 AM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
As Cornel West's analysis of Marx's take on morality suggests, Marx
applied the standards of "bourgeois right" (trading at price = value) to
show that capitalist violates _its own standards_. Marx clearly had
>
>The clearest non-LTV demonstration that there is exploitation is Joan
>Robinson's observation that ownership is not an activity therefore it is
>not
>a productive activity, so any rewards to ownership must come out of someone
>else's production. But without something like the LTV, we miss a
R, I think we have reached the point of diminishing marginal returns. I
agree with Fred Guy: the work on the LTV for a century has been a
desperate, inward-turning attempt tos how that it can be made coherent in
the face of increasing masses of fatal objections, and it's not doing real
work.
"Devine, James" wrote:
>
> Of course, Marx's value theory -- or law of value -- is
> also a heuristic.
>
Isn't that the primary function of most (or all) "laws"? The Law of
Value serves primarily to focus attention on (a) the historicity of
capitalism and (b) the oranization and temporal all
[Ian gave me permission to send this one-to-one communication to the pen-l
list as a whole.]
I wrote:>>the real-world fallacy of composition (or division) is
crucial: in this context, it says that the microeconomic processes
governed by prices do not correspond to the macroeconomic processes
desc
Devine, James wrote:
>BTW, I find religious attitudes all the time in economics. For example,
>there's the worship of the market (the U of Chicago) or the worship of
>mathematics for its own sake (UC-Berkeley). But I think it's best to attack
>these faiths on the basis of facts, logic, and method
Auto Figures and Value: What's in your wallet?
The definitive Marxist Understanding of Value
Melvin P
Detroit: The figures - production units and profit estimates are slowly
coming in and by the months end should tell the story of the USNA based auto
industry. Cut-rate loans and discounts kep
Justin,
a short reply.
the disallowing of qualitative change in outputs and inputs and
setting them equal in price by assumption seems to make analysis
inherently static. This is why these assumptions are hotly contested.
>>
>
>As far as I can tell, this is just a way of reminding us that an
The Financial Express
February 04, 2002
Impact of the weak yen on Asian markets
The downward spiral of the Japanese yen in the past few months has raised
questions of its implications on Asian economies and financial markets. The
Financial Express presents the views of two experts, IndusInd Ban
on 2/5/02 05:22 AM, Charles Brown at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> : value and price: a dissenting note
> by Michael Perelman
> 03 February 2002 05:46 UTC < < <
>
>
> Michael P:I agree with you, except the algebraic theory presumes ex ante --
> values
> today that depend on conditions in the futu
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