tainly sortable: year first, then month,
then mday.
2005-07-05T20:01:42+0200
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don't USE numbers for week days! So beginning at 1 makes no
sense, except for humans who like creating lists like (undef, ). In fact, I would prefer to
not having any 0 :)
Now, for months, yes it does make lots of sense.
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itrarily chosen day for the first. Or, well, for compatibility,
Sunday :)
Computers and Perl count from 0. People count from 1. If something
begins at 1, it is expected to be a people's thing. And with week days,
this just doesn't work, as not everyone's week starts at the same d
ld be fun if we could just steal that design and build on top of
it, for compatibility, but also because other people have already
thought about it and proven that it works.
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.method(...);
}
was the perfect solution. Killing off a useful and much used idiom even
before the first release is quite an accomplishment.
Disallowing .method here means a huge step back in time. Back to
$_.method or $object.method.
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s includes any method/submethod with an explicitly
> named invocant, I hope.
No, $?SELF exists in every method. It's not the *default* invocant
variable, it's the *always there* invocant variable. There is no default
variable anywhere in the language that isn't $_.
Juerd
's forced and used to test patience.
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well.
Would this mean that $? is an alias for $?SELF, or only that "$?." comes
in "./"'s stead?
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ause
it will run all standard Perl 6 code too, as the thing that the fork
introduces used to be an error.
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without arguments would also need to be forbidden, following this way of
thinking.
We can only hope our dictator turns benevolent again, at least regarding
the one thing we all agree about (and have agreed about for quite some
time): that .foo must always mean $_.foo.
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Larry Wall skribis 2005-08-09 16:19 (-0700):
> So either something in the context tells us what "Foo" means, or
> it will be taken as a list operator that hasn't been declared yet.
Is there, by the way, a pragma to force predeclaration of subs, to gain
compile time typo check
is can be (but that doesn't mean will be) optimized to
$foo =:= $foo
which in turn could be optimized to truth.
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; # Correct?
Yes, although at some point there was this weird notion of scalars
automatically dereferencing in list context, in this respect Perl 6
currently is sane.
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[EMAIL PROTECTED] skribis 2005-08-31 15:50 (+):
> I think this deserves at least a compile time warning and also a
> strict pragma to make it an error as it is most likely not what the
> programmer wanted.
I do not think that using a scalar in list context deserves a warning.
Juerd
al, chained operators like comma, junction constructors
and infix zip, don't get an op= variant.
There's something nice in
$foo = 42;
$foo |= .bar for @quux;
as an alternative for
$foo = any 42, @quux>>.bar;
though
Juerd
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h
Stuart Cook skribis 2005-09-01 22:49 (+1000):
> [1] i.e. magically applies itself to any valid infix operator, just
> like »« and [] do
, is not a normal binary infix operator. It's not even binary, although
it can of course be used with only two operands.
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t context not being Array context. It does not
dereference anything.
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of your variable, that means that you flatten yourself
> into specific kinds of contexts.
sub foo (@bar) { ... }
foo $aref;
Here $aref is dereferenced because of the Array context. The scalar
can't do this by itself, of course.
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Thomas Sandlass skribis 2005-09-05 14:38 (+0200):
>b) if this is true, ?? evaluates its rhs such that it
> can't be undef
But
$foo ?? undef // 1
then is a problem.
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Luke Palmer skribis 2005-09-06 13:28 (+):
> Well, we'd better document that pretty damn well then, and provide
> min_arity and max_arity, too.
Won't junctions do Array, then? I think &foo.arity.max would be very
intuitive, and likewise, for @&foo.arity
esting (and imho, a bad idea), because:
> \(@array); # same as
\(@array) and [EMAIL PROTECTED] are the same thing
> \(@array,); # same as
\(@array,) is [ @array ], NOT map { \$_ } @array
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go ahead and make
> it ??!!. (At least this week...)
I was going to object based on !!foo being ! ! foo, but that !! is
spelled ? now, so nevermind.
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$bar;
AFAIK, these are the same thing, because the left side of [0] is in
Array context, which is a scalar context, in which comma creates a new
anonymous array ref.
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ot the nonexistent second element of the nonexistent list.
> sub *postcircumfix:<[ ]> ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) {
Do postfix list operators exist in Perl 6? AFAIK, the only thing that
can create a list is list context, and I'm very unsure how anything that
can handle both a list a
ovided the new insight about comma creating an array of aliases rather
than copies, I retract this.
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se they do not construct) works very well in
Perl 6: it is not the parens that construct the array in scalar context,
it is something else.
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Are "item context" and "slurpy context" official terms yet? (Note that
"official" is temporary, not permament, and has nothing to do with
things being set in stone.)
If so, then are the keywords for forcing context also "item" and
"slurpy",
iscussion about this so that it can be settled.
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o ways (at least) to test for
ability to coerce, as this can happen lossily and losslessly. Thinks
like $foo.canbe(Int) and $foo.fitsin(Int) came to mind, but single word
method names are probably better, if only someone can think of any.
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t are the implications of that)? What role does coercion play
> in multimethod dispatch?
Good questions. Relevant regardless of coercion syntax. I have no idea.
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do? Are parens in any way special when
used with \? What is the precedence of \?
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the case, I suggest we rename \
to something that actually LOOKS like a function, that is: something
with a \w+ name. This all would imply that its precedence is lower than
comma.
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foo($a,$b);
> or not?
I think this works, but I was discussing syntax: the function of parens
after \, and how to look at \ compared to other \W and \w+ operators,
syntax wise.
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legant programming way too easy and attractive, and that its benefits
are far too little. At first glances, it makes me think it's mostly
useful for people who hate refactoring.
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;d actually prefer something like:
for my $item (@menu) {
my $label = encode_entities $item->label;
my $href = uri_escape $item->url;
my $there = $item->there;
print qq[$label\n] if $there;
print qq[$label] if not $
pair can be confused
for its key or value. A good alternative is hard to find, though. I tend
to prefer 1 at this moment (coincidentally, that's +?$pair).
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ke sense to
try and figure out a Perl signature for it?
> Because the comma operator supplies list context, (@a, @b) flattens
> @a and @b, so it's like @a.concat(@b).
Ah, comma supplies list context regardless of the context the comma is
in? Is this current, or part of your proposa
ut is there also something like :(2...)th?
> On 9/21/05, Juerd <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Please reply properly: below quotation (not above), per subject
(usually: per paragraph), and stripping useless junk like signatures.
> --
Speaking of signatures... Instruct your mailer to use si
the case.
This is also why I'm not sure stringification is done by a prefix:<~>
method -- it's probably done by something that does coercion in general,
but I have no idea what the syntax for that would be.
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that ?+$pair should
also be true.
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can think of no good way or reason to make
this work:
FOO: ... {
BAR: ... {
pause FOO;
}
}
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lity, and is a very bad thing.
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the scenes is
> not a bad thing :)
I still consider sub calls, loops, conditions, etc, to be controlled
forms of goto. They're good-goto.
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string
> representation of the entire value").
But will they also see "foo" ~ $bar as something different from
"foo$bar"? And what context does "foo{ $bar }" use?
In my opinion, making the string value in interpolation different from
the value in Str co
ation of operator " " with a string and an item.
I see a shorter way to write "foo" ~ $bar, as implemented by the
circumfix "" operator.
> $TSa.greeting := "HaloO"; # mind the echo!
echo off
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= 2;
my $baz = foo($bar *= 2, 1|2|3);
say $bar;
The foo call line evaluates to:
my $baz = foo(4, 1) | foo(4, 2) | foo(4, 3);
# Except that the 4 is really $bar, the lvalue return value of *=
not to:
my $baz = foo($bar *= 2, 1) | foo($bar *= 2, 2) | foo($bar *= 2, 3);
S
rs. The
difference with @foo without .elems would then be non-Num item context:
item @foo returns [EMAIL PROTECTED], but item @foo.elems returns [EMAIL
PROTECTED] Still, I'd
prefer not having .elems at all, as it adds nothing but confusion,
regardless of which of the two semantic sets is chosen.
%hash.kvzip(%hash.k, %hash.v)
With hashes and pairs, I don't think there could be any confusion over
the meaning of "k" and "v", just like "kv" works without explanation.
(Not having to type "alue" also makes it easier for a pair to NOT
evaluat
ct .pairs to return pairs, not keys and values zipped.
Re each, I don't know what to expect: a single pair, or all pairs. Not
what .kv does, anyway.
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ean.
> Which often looks like madness until you realize that it's just a
> reflection of how most hackers think. ;-)
This calls for a poll, because I believe nothing of this "most".
Hackers on this list, what do you think?
Juerd
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number number
stringnumber join
scalarnumber ref
This huge difference in how smart an array is makes it kind of
useless to take Perl 5 as an example of how arrays should behave in Perl
6, because that would also dictate that "foo" ~ @bar end in the number
of elements in @bar. B
s
> bluish red ;-)
We can do better than equivalence testing for colors. Instead, try to
match. Surely a *smart* match operator really is smart?
$color ~~ '#FF00FF'
==
$color ~~ 'magenta'
==
$color ~~ [ 255, 0, 255 ]
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y IS confusing!
It is NOT TRUE that strings with variables interpolated are always for
presentation.
It is NOT TRUE that uninterpolated strings are always for storage.
Both can be used either way, and in practice are used both ways.
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f it without reading a book.
Yes, if things are different, they should be really different.
For this reason I want ~$foo and +$foo be different where something
making sense can be thought of and implemented without much effort, and
pairs to evaluate to something OTHER than their values (the
a protocol. In fact, I
cannot think of any object class that would have multiple possible
stringifications, and none of them obviously more important than others.
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t strings so you
> can customize it, including ways to change the defaults for a class
> (like the separator for arrays of pairs being "\n" instead of ' ').
Just the way I imagined it. Great!
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context, both
return the number of elements.
> BTW, does everybody expect more than one prefix numerifyer beeing
> redundant or is there an idea of (+ (+ @foo)) beeing modelled
It's providing context to something that was already providing context.
A bit redundant indeed.
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split should be called "chunks" and
behave as described in this message.
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the global
state of syntactic flip flops makes me be afraid of using them in subs.
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TSa skribis 2005-09-26 19:39 (+0200):
> Sorry, I'm totally out of scope to what 'the flipflop operator' is.
> Could you be so kind to give some hints. Thanks in advance.
http://perldoc.perl.org/perlop.html#Range-Operators
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TSa skribis 2005-09-26 20:32 (+0200):
> Does someone consider this 'inner boolean state' and the 'magical
> auto-increment algorithm if the operands are strings' of the Perl5
> range op a feature worth preserving?
Yes, many someones do.
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be. That's why the equivalent of $& will be
usable without any frowning.
> Grtz, Ruud
K vnd grtz n btj mljk t lzn, n d z mt ntrljk n s zjn.
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r me, the most noticeable difference is the time spent thinking and
writing: for replies it's short, for new messages, it's long.
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What should zip do given 1..3 and 1..6?
(a) 1 1 2 2 3 3 4 5 6
(b) 1 1 2 2 3 3 undef 4 undef 5 undef 6
(c) 1 1 2 2 3 3
(d) fail
I'd want c, mostly because of code like
for @foo Y 0... -> $foo, $i { ... }
Pugs currently does b.
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nnot know whether a list is finite?
my @foo = slurp ...; # lazy, but can be either finite or infinite
my @bar = 1..10;
say @foo Y @bar; # ?
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$xyzzy { ... }
And even though
for @foo Y @bar Y @baz -> $quux, $xyzzy { ... }
is something you will probably not see very often, it's still legal
Perl, even though it looks asymmetric. This too makes finding the
solution in arguments a non-solution.
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Luke Palmer skribis 2005-10-06 14:23 (-0600):
> my role is_default {} # empty
> sub foo($a, ?$b = 0 but is_default) {...}
Would this work too?
0 but role {}
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uot;hello" can't in a useful way be coerced to a number
If it dies because of b, very good. If because of a, I think we have a
huge difference of opinion regarding automatic coercion.
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Exception
"hello 5 worlds"?
/^<...>/ perhaps?
And I think we should match against Num, not Int, as it's very hard to
have a rule that matches just integers. 0.5e3 is an integer, but 0.5e-3
is not.
As stated in my previous message, I think that all numbers should be
parsed t
Yuval Kogman skribis 2005-10-07 12:53 (+0200):
> On Fri, Oct 07, 2005 at 12:42:01 +0200, Juerd wrote:
> > For my Int $c = $float, though, I'd want coercion.
> > And I think it is wrong to have such a huge difference between literals
> > and values: if a variable coerces,
Miroslav Silovic skribis 2005-10-07 13:07 (+0200):
> Can an inline role be named?
> 0 but role is_default {}
This is a nice idea. It would require named roles (and to really be
succesful, also classes, subs, methods, ...) declarations to be
expressions, but I see no downside to that.
seconds. It's nice to get all the certain failures during compile
> > time.
> How about in unreachable code (which I do actually believe compilers can
> detect some of the time)?
I'm quite ambivalent about this.
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turn &bar;
> }
> foo(42).(); #
Does this mean that this Perl 5 snippet no longer does the same in Perl 6?
{
my $foo = 5;
sub bar {
return $foo;
}
}
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ARGS or something like that to be a *-able array that
will be guaranteed to be compatible with the current sub's signature.
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foo(([EMAIL PROTECTED]));
foo ([EMAIL PROTECTED]);
This doesn't allow for combining named and positional pairs. I do not
think that is necessary at all, for arrays. I think that combining
the two on the same level is a recipe for disaster anyway, and should
perhaps even emit a w
Juerd skribis 2005-10-10 15:20 (+0200):
> only pairs on the topmost level of arguments (not in any parens) are
s/not in any parens/not in any grouping parens/, to exclude .()
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is very arguable.
(Very little sidenote: parameters are expected, arguments are passed. In
the signature, you have parameters, in the call, you have arguments.
However, in the case of a named argument, it does make some sense to
call the name parameter and the value argument, resulting in having
lso indicates, confusing at best.
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nfix and circumfix
parts. Please leave the parens for grouping (and in calls: breaking
recognition).
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an
on making these available through a web interface soon.
There are no data backups for feather. I am considering weekly backups.
Do you think they are needed?
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Alfie John skribis 2005-10-12 15:28 (+1000):
> Does Perl6 support multiline comments?
All incarnations of Perl have allowed us to begin multiple subsequent
lines with the comment glyph '#'. I am sure Perl 6 will not break this
tradition.
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a feature to trans entire strings? i.e. 'foo'
=> 'bar', where foo is a single thing replaced by bar. Does this not
exclude any possibility of specifying ranges in strings?
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ot;Perl 5-ism" can be construed as
positive or negative. Please do elaborate.
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Luke Palmer skribis 2005-10-18 11:57 (-0600):
> It looks nicer if you use the indirect object form:
> trans "string": [
> => "0",
> ];
It'd also look very nice with optional parens:
"string".trans [ => "0" ]
encoding. In
that case I suggest the "lit" operator that provides Str::Literal
context&coercion, which coerces to any other string type without
encoding.
Juerd
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gt; it can't always be easily re-encoded. Encoding functions should therefor
> > check if a variable does safe::(none()) and warn or fail if so.
> I don't see how this relates to the OP, or why encoding functions
> should implement it like this.
The "should" is
DBI;
use MyDBI as DBI;
Juerd
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Larry Wall skribis 2005-10-19 1:43 (-0700):
> On Tue, Oct 18, 2005 at 04:43:57PM +0200, Juerd wrote:
> : dot sigils are not actually special. They are required on has-variables
> : and forbidden on all other. Changing them to be optional is trivial, or
> : so I hope.
> Dot sigils
This takes away my objections to the dot twigil entirely.
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nal keyboards?
3. What is the ASCII equivalent?
4. Why not ^, which is available?
5. Why is the sigil needed? Pairs do well without, too.
Juerd
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Juerd skribis 2005-10-20 17:03 (+0200):
> 3. What is the ASCII equivalent?
Suggestion: 1c
'c' is an invalid character in numbers, and currently only numbers can
begin with a digit.
1cFoo
The 1 provides an extra visual hint of the cheapness of the class.
J
Juerd skribis 2005-10-20 17:03 (+0200):
> 4. Why not ^, which is available?
Or the euro symbol, which also has a C in it. It doesn't always have to
be American ;) It's in iso-8859-15, which is compatible enough with
iso-8859-1 to support ¥ and both « and ». (I hope those turn out
will have its equivalent too.
(It's ^KCt in vim, btw)
Juerd
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Larry Wall skribis 2005-10-20 8:46 (-0700):
> On Thu, Oct 20, 2005 at 05:35:10PM +0200, Juerd wrote:
> : I'm sure ¢ will have its equivalent too.
> c| or C| maybe.
But
sub c { ... }
sub d { ... }
if $foo eq c|d { ... }
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Schneelocke skribis 2005-10-20 18:00 (+0200):
> Would c! be an option?
In current Perl 6: Yes, because infix ! does not exist.
But several people want ! to be a chainy none() constructor, and this
would destroy a dream.
Juerd
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gestion instead of just telling us
> why our ideas don't work in very specific circumstances, feel free.
I've already suggested two. Is that not enough?
(a) ^
(b) 1c
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oks like h (hash).
I dislike things like "$calar" and "@rray", and now some people will use
"¢lass" in examples.
Please let that the sigil looks like a certain leter not be a reason.
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eady overstepping a boundary. It's perfectly normal to have one
glyph do very different things according to how/where it's used.
Juerd
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Steve Peters skribis 2005-10-21 6:07 (-0500):
> Older versions of Eclipse are not able to enter these characters. That's
> where the copy and paste comes in.
That's where upgrades come in.
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fore Perl
6 is released.
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